The reason why the definition of P2W has become blurred is because it can be twisted quite easily..
Exactly this. It's like asking someone what number defines "slut." It will fall somewhat higher than their own number of sexual encounters. Same with P2W. Most players will NOT acknowledge they participate in it.
If he can gain with money something i cannot gain with playing than this is p2w for me. Game breaks when paying player is above non paying player having items non available to everyone. If he can buy only stuff that i can earn by playing more than him then sure whatever it aint p2w. It sucks but hey some people work full time and instead of time to spend grinding have money to give. You think "aw man it sucks i have to play all day to get this while he can pay" then get in his place and work 8-10 hours a day then go home and look at all the kids that have played the entire day and grinded these stuff and you be like "oh man i worked my as$ off today and now when i log in i'm so much behind others who grinded all day"
What about time saving?
If it takes you X number of hours to acquire something and another player gets it in a few seconds through a cash shop, did they "pay to win?"
You both have access to the object in question, but one buys it while another spends time to acquire.
Paying for an advantage = p2w. Paying to progress faster = p2w Paying for benefits outside of aesthetics = p2w
Any game that allows you to get ahead because you paid money is a pay to win game. You may not be immediately winning, but you are paying money which is leaning toward that desired outcome.
Seems to me that by that definition only a boxed game with no Deluxe Edition (or similar), no sub, no DLC, no shop is not P2W.
What most here are calling (incorrectly) P2W is clearly Pay 2 Advantage which I feel is much different.
P2W is most applicable when items of power (including items such as gear boosters and RNG lockboxes, keys etc.)
It is especially true if said items are mandatory to succeed in game, PVP most often but I ran into it for PVE raiding in ROM.
Many times said items are earnable in game, but usually at such a slow pace it almost assures many players will pony up in the cash shop.
I dont put experience boosters in the P2W category as unless you are the no life 20 hour a day gamer someone is always leveling faster than you and it rarely effects others gameplay anymore than normal.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If he can gain with money something i cannot gain with playing than this is p2w for me. Game breaks when paying player is above non paying player having items non available to everyone. If he can buy only stuff that i can earn by playing more than him then sure whatever it aint p2w. It sucks but hey some people work full time and instead of time to spend grinding have money to give. You think "aw man it sucks i have to play all day to get this while he can pay" then get in his place and work 8-10 hours a day then go home and look at all the kids that have played the entire day and grinded these stuff and you be like "oh man i worked my as$ off today and now when i log in i'm so much behind others who grinded all day"
What about time saving?
If it takes you X number of hours to acquire something and another player gets it in a few seconds through a cash shop, did they "pay to win?"
You both have access to the object in question, but one buys it while another spends time to acquire.
Did you read my comment? One spends time playing the game to acquire, other spends time working for money to pay for that thing and acquire it.
What most here are calling (incorrectly) P2W is clearly Pay 2 Advantage which I feel is much different.
P2W is most applicable when items of power (including items such as gear boosters and RNG lockboxes, keys etc.)
It is especially true if said items are mandatory to succeed in game, PVP most often but I ran into it for PVE raiding in ROM.
Many times said items are earnable in game, but usually at such a slow pace it almost assures many players will pony up in the cash shop.
I dont put experience boosters in the P2W category as unless you are the no life 20 hour a day gamer someone is always leveling faster than you and it rarely effects others gameplay anymore than normal.
Imagine that you play an OWPvP game with long term vertical progression. You start on day 1 playing relatively casually. Some other guy does exactly the same thing, but buys himself experience boosters. Some 3 weeks into the game, you are exping in peace when suddenly this guy shows up being 5 levels "stronger" than you and decides to pk you. Due to his level advantage gained thanks to the exp boosters, he manages to do that quite easily. You are unlucky and drop your new weapon you just got and for which you were saving money for 3 weeks. The other guy picks it up and runs away. You find yourself lying on the ground without a weapon and also deleveled as you had just dinged new level 10 minutes ago and the death cost you several percent exp.
You would consider this scenario to be fair since you do not categorize exp boosters as P2W?
As I play casually there is always someone who played more and is 5 levels ahead of me ganking and taking my stuff.
What do I care whether he gained his experience advantage by paying for it or playing more for it.
One problem with setting up artificial comparisons such as this based on "fairness" is OWPVP is rarely fair, more likely I'll be killed by that guy and his 3 friends.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As I play casually there is always someone who played more and is 5 levels ahead of me ganking and taking my stuff.
What do I care whether he gained his experience advantage by paying for it or playing more for it.
Clearly you don't. Otherwise, you would not be playing a p2w pvp heavy game.
But others may feel that it is not "fair", or that they feel that gaming is "polluted". Now I really don't share this concern because i mainly pve solo. But hey, do you deny others can feel about p2w differently from you, and see it as a huge negative?
As I play casually there is always someone who played more and is 5 levels ahead of me ganking and taking my stuff.
What do I care whether he gained his experience advantage by paying for it or playing more for it.
Clearly you don't. Otherwise, you would not be playing a p2w pvp heavy game.
But others may feel that it is not "fair", or that they feel that gaming is "polluted". Now I really don't share this concern because i mainly pve solo. But hey, do you deny others can feel about p2w differently from you, and see it as a huge negative?
No, I've fully accepted other people are incorrect in their viewpoints.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What most here are calling (incorrectly) P2W is clearly Pay 2 Advantage which I feel is much different.
P2W is most applicable when items of power (including items such as gear boosters and RNG lockboxes, keys etc.)
It is especially true if said items are mandatory to succeed in game, PVP most often but I ran into it for PVE raiding in ROM.
Many times said items are earnable in game, but usually at such a slow pace it almost assures many players will pony up in the cash shop.
I dont put experience boosters in the P2W category as unless you are the no life 20 hour a day gamer someone is always leveling faster than you and it rarely effects others gameplay anymore than normal.
If he can gain with money something i cannot gain with playing than this is p2w for me. Game breaks when paying player is above non paying player having items non available to everyone. If he can buy only stuff that i can earn by playing more than him then sure whatever it aint p2w. It sucks but hey some people work full time and instead of time to spend grinding have money to give. You think "aw man it sucks i have to play all day to get this while he can pay" then get in his place and work 8-10 hours a day then go home and look at all the kids that have played the entire day and grinded these stuff and you be like "oh man i worked my as$ off today and now when i log in i'm so much behind others who grinded all day"
What about time saving?
If it takes you X number of hours to acquire something and another player gets it in a few seconds through a cash shop, did they "pay to win?"
You both have access to the object in question, but one buys it while another spends time to acquire.
Did you read my comment? One spends time playing the game to acquire, other spends time working for money to pay for that thing and acquire it.
Yet one is playing the game (spending the time) while the other is not (paying for advancement). I don't care what one does outside of a game. If one buys a game and pays more to NOT play it, what is the point? If it's boring enough to get you spending more money, there is always a "quit button."
SWTOR, where they actively prevent you from playing unless you spend $$ XD
Can't reach level cap. Can't play more than 5 wzs (bgs) a week. Can't loot in dungeons. Can't wear best quality armor. Credit capped and auction house capped. This, coupled with not being able to use any aesthetic options (player title, dye synchronization, show/hide headslot, etc.).
And it used to be worse! I come back to this game every few months to try another class storyline and damn do I feel bad about the people who try to play this without a sub.
I'm a little shaky on this. Paying for a subscription is not p2w. Paying for a fresh level X character is p2w. So when i spend money instead of effort/time/attention to acquire anything in a game, that is p2w. Yes, even cosmetic skins, pets, etc.
I only would use the term P2W for a PVP game that allows you to pay for any type of advantage over other players. As far as P2W PVE goes, who really cares?
Those PVErs are PvP ing by trying to take down raid bosses first or the most imes, etc.
Well then that would be an advantage over another player in PVP then wouldn't it? ; )
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
As I play casually there is always someone who played more and is 5 levels ahead of me ganking and taking my stuff.
What do I care whether he gained his experience advantage by paying for it or playing more for it.
Clearly you don't. Otherwise, you would not be playing a p2w pvp heavy game.
But others may feel that it is not "fair", or that they feel that gaming is "polluted". Now I really don't share this concern because i mainly pve solo. But hey, do you deny others can feel about p2w differently from you, and see it as a huge negative?
No, I've fully accepted other people are incorrect in their viewpoints.
You clearly are out of the norm of "p2w hating" here. How can you be sure you are not the one who is "incorrect". In fact, how can a preference be correct or incorrect?
So you like (or have no problem with) a p2w game. Others do. What is so incorrect about either viewpoint?
What most here are calling (incorrectly) P2W is clearly Pay 2 Advantage which I feel is much different.
P2W is most applicable when items of power (including items such as gear boosters and RNG lockboxes, keys etc.)
It is especially true if said items are mandatory to succeed in game, PVP most often but I ran into it for PVE raiding in ROM.
Many times said items are earnable in game, but usually at such a slow pace it almost assures many players will pony up in the cash shop.
I dont put experience boosters in the P2W category as unless you are the no life 20 hour a day gamer someone is always leveling faster than you and it rarely effects others gameplay anymore than normal.
Who gets to define pay to win? It seems like the people against paying for games are the ones behind it. Isn't that like a robber getting to define what is robbery? Or a businessman deciding which business practices are fraud?
Is it entitlement (a free to play game that is "fair")? Is it being cheap? Is it just playing a forum game? (aka BS). Is it jealously? (can't afford games)
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
For me the meaning of P2W is quite literal ie. Paying players having an unfair advantage over non-paying players, Mostly in a pvp setting. A prime example of this is the gw2 heart of thorns expansion, Try being a f2p player in a pvp/wvw match against a player with the expansion (elite specs), It's not fun, I have both a HoT and f2p account and I've tested it, All the meta builds require the expansion, This is text book P2W imo.
For me, Pay-To-Win is the ability to simply pay real money to obtain/attain any item/status that would, or could, otherwise be obtained in-game through doing actual content. That applies to anything, be it gameplay related, or even cosmetic. For someone who enjoys collecting outfits, or pets, or what-have-you, obtaining those things is a kind of "win" for them, and simply dropping $ on it is a way to bypass playing the game to earn it. So even there, it's P2W.
You seems to be confused, don't mix P2W with Pay for Convenience, It's two complete different things.
No, I'm not confused. You're misconstruing what I said, and being obnoxious/rude about it at the same time.
It depens on the game as well. If the game is f2p but has exp boost in its store, then that's not so bad if by chance those items when accumulated for the optimal experience when playing, average $15 a month. Ifs it more than $15, then less people will use it, and it becomes an unfair advantage for its bad pricing and its more p2w, imo.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Comments
VG
If it takes you X number of hours to acquire something and another player gets it in a few seconds through a cash shop, did they "pay to win?"
You both have access to the object in question, but one buys it while another spends time to acquire.
VG
Interesting.
I do not agree at all, but interesting.
Very few people complain about P2W in a pure PVE game...Edit: Unless the cash shop is a requirement to progress... then it is an issue.
P2W is most applicable when items of power (including items such as gear boosters and RNG lockboxes, keys etc.)
It is especially true if said items are mandatory to succeed in game, PVP most often but I ran into it for PVE raiding in ROM.
Many times said items are earnable in game, but usually at such a slow pace it almost assures many players will pony up in the cash shop.
I dont put experience boosters in the P2W category as unless you are the no life 20 hour a day gamer someone is always leveling faster than you and it rarely effects others gameplay anymore than normal.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What do I care whether he gained his experience advantage by paying for it or playing more for it.
One problem with setting up artificial comparisons such as this based on "fairness" is OWPVP is rarely fair, more likely I'll be killed by that guy and his 3 friends.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But others may feel that it is not "fair", or that they feel that gaming is "polluted". Now I really don't share this concern because i mainly pve solo. But hey, do you deny others can feel about p2w differently from you, and see it as a huge negative?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
VG
VG
Can't reach level cap. Can't play more than 5 wzs (bgs) a week. Can't loot in dungeons. Can't wear best quality armor. Credit capped and auction house capped. This, coupled with not being able to use any aesthetic options (player title, dye synchronization, show/hide headslot, etc.).
And it used to be worse! I come back to this game every few months to try another class storyline and damn do I feel bad about the people who try to play this without a sub.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
You clearly are out of the norm of "p2w hating" here. How can you be sure you are not the one who is "incorrect". In fact, how can a preference be correct or incorrect?
So you like (or have no problem with) a p2w game. Others do. What is so incorrect about either viewpoint?
How about the scorpion pet?
The electric spiders alternate art for spark?
Wouldn't those all fit under "being able to buy anything"?
Who gets to define pay to win? It seems like the people against paying for games are the ones behind it. Isn't that like a robber getting to define what is robbery? Or a businessman deciding which business practices are fraud?
Is it entitlement (a free to play game that is "fair")?
Is it being cheap?
Is it just playing a forum game? (aka BS).
Is it jealously? (can't afford games)
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Everyone has their own definition, and clearly people do not agree.
No one because there is no central authority, nor consensus.
The point is, most people are mature enough to accept the differences in wealth, some however are not...
There is no problem when people spent money on their hobbies.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
And it is a free world. If someone has a problem, he does not have to play cash shop games.