every mmo is P2W. you can buy accounts buy characters. REAL MONEY BUYS YOU ANYTHING IN ALL MMO'S.
Yup. And we call people that do that lowlife cheaters,. except when it's the publisher itself selling the gold... funny that, eh?
No we can call it for what it is - money always gives an advantage.
If you want to call that cheating - than the entire financial system and everything bought with money is cheating.
Think about in RL where money provides an advantage - it's endless number of examples. Cheating?
We're talking about games which are, you know, different than real life. Even playing fields is what we're after. Whether that exists or doesn't exist in real life is irrelevant.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The advocates supporting this P2W fiasco are the same people who buy gold from gold sellers and the reason gold sellers run rampant in MMOs now days. Little do they realize that by coming on these forums and making all of these excuses justifying the purchase of in game gold with real life money all they are doing is admitting that they are the same people who have been buying and suppprting these lowlife gold sellers that do nothing but ruin games, while all the while sneakily pretending to be against them. It's shameful. The hypocrisy in mindboggling.
I didn't know that describing and differentiating the concepts of what constitutes P2W, was somehow advocating illegal activities. You're doing a lot of projecting there.
I've never bought anything from a 3rd party seller in all my years of gaming, that violated any company's TOS.
I have presented an argument as to why i think it's not P2W (or whatever other word you want to use), to describe an unfair advantage. If you think people are wrong, then explain why, instead of hurling accusations at them.
every mmo is P2W. you can buy accounts buy characters. REAL MONEY BUYS YOU ANYTHING IN ALL MMO'S.
Except that's actual cheating, since it's not abiding by the terms of service. We're talking about approved practices within the "rules".
So what's the difference on the impact they have on playing the game itself?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The advocates supporting this P2W fiasco are the same people who buy gold from gold sellers and the reason gold sellers run rampant in MMOs now days. Little do they realize that by coming on these forums and making all of these excuses justifying the purchase of in game gold with real life money all they are doing is admitting that they are the same people who have been buying and suppprting these lowlife gold sellers that do nothing but ruin games, while all the while sneakily pretending to be against them. It's shameful. The hypocrisy in mindboggling.
I have never bought a single thing from a gold seller in my 18 years of online gaming.
I support this "pay for in game silver" in BDO because in such an insanely grind heavy game, providing options for players who don't have that kind of time is a good thing.
Also providing players who do have insane amount of time and silver an option to get cash shop items without spending money is a good thing.
Just because others disagree with that awfully overused P2W term - need I point out that for all the hollering - there isn't even a concensus on what P2W is exactly.
What's sad is that you are stereotyping everyone who disagrees with you as a gold-buyer hypocrite.
Sorry to tell you but you have a logical fallacy in your post.
Po-ta-toe ... Potato.
What's the difference, either way you word it at the end to the day ... ...you are still buying gold with real life money!
The advocates supporting this P2W fiasco are the same people who buy gold from gold sellers and the reason gold sellers run rampant in MMOs now days. Little do they realize that by coming on these forums and making all of these excuses justifying the purchase of in game gold with real life money all they are doing is admitting that they are the same people who have been buying and suppprting these lowlife gold sellers that do nothing but ruin games, while all the while sneakily pretending to be against them. It's shameful. The hypocrisy in mindboggling.
I didn't know that describing and differentiating the concepts of what constitutes P2W, was somehow advocating illegal activities. You're doing a lot of projecting there.
I've never bought anything from a 3rd party seller in all my years of gaming, that violated any company's TOS.
I have presented an argument as to why i think it's not P2W (or whatever other word you want to use), to describe an unfair advantage. If you think people are wrong, then explain why, instead of hurling accusations at them.
Po-ta-toe ... Potato.
What's the difference, either way you word it at the end to the day ...
...you are still buying gold with real life money!
We can go on like this all day long.
EXPLANATION: The fact that you are not, somehow, violating some random TOS does not absolve you from that activity, and it certainly doesn't alleviate the exact same harm that the activity brings to the game, irrespective of the entity advancing it.
Hey bud, you got something to counter what I said, say it. Don't hide behind your chickenshit LOLs.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I also find it quite ironic that people think a subscription mmo is also fair, considering that time spent helps those who play more, and casuals who play less, are always at a disadvantage. Time spent will always be unfair, since people choose how much time they want to play. A teen or college kid will always have more time than someone who works.
So what? Talent and efficient time investment are what matters in legitimate competitions such as chess, sports, musical proficiency, etc.
All I hear you guys saying is that you want shortcuts so you can compete with those who earned their way there the legitimate way. Cash is one shortcut and then there are always cheats... you're OK with the cash shortcut but not the hacks and cheats I take it?
What you don't say is that buying your way in makes a mockery of the integrity of the competition and that you're jealous of those who put in the time.
You got it backwards bud: talent, time and effort are the fair ways to compete. So what's next? Pay $$ to get a 50 meter head start on the 100 meter dash?
The problem with that analogy is that it depends on the type of environment. If it's a professional tournament for any of those activities, then there are certain rules and regulations. These people train for years on their own time, and probably use special equipment, dietary plans, etc.. Does that mean they are "cheating" and having an advantage too?
An MMO environment is entirely different, since it's not a controlled environment regarding time (unless they are sponsoring certain tournaments, such as in WoW or GW2). The closest thing to a controlled environment in BDO, is Node Wars, but that's a stretch, since it's an open-world environment where everyone can participate in.
There is no such thing as training time limits for any competitions. That notion is nonsensical. The rules that exist are there precisely to prohibit short-cuts, steroids being the most notorious of those.
I played BDO so I know it's a grindfest. That's the legitimate playing field. You can either stomach that type of game or not, but that's a whole different story than paying cash in-lieu of grinding when playing a grindfest.
I know that it's a popular cash hook particularly in Asian MMOs. Obviously a lot of people worldwide are OK with shortcuts and companies depend on it for profits. But don't try to tell me that its more fair lol. That's just ridiculous and consigns the games that do that into some weird little "let's pretend we're competing fairly" niche universe.
I'll try this again, hopefully the forum doesn't bug out.
There's no legitimate playing field though.
Look at it another way. The open-world environment in BDO isn't a controlled tournament, or activity, with special rules or regulations. It's always going to be an unfair environment. People will always have more time than others. Guilds will always have more people than other guilds. People will always have better gear than those who do not....etc.
The open-world environment is basically like the real world, where people are constantly "training" outside a tournament. It's always going to be unfair, until BDO has a special tournament or environment.
Now compare it to GW2's PvP games (or any mmo with tournaments or instanced pvp maps or arenas). In those games, everything is usually normalized with special rules and regulations. Stats are usually normalized, player size is controlled, and there are time limits and scoreboards, and so on.
Paying to advance in an uncontrolled environment isn't actually winning at anything, because there's nothing to win, since there isn't a competition in the first place.
There's no more competition in GW2 than there is in BDO. Just because BDO is one giant arena, doesn't mean people or guilds are competitive. Owning the best areas of the map earn your guild a hell of a lot more silver. So trust me, BDO is definitely competitive when it comes to node wars.
It's not a fair competitive environment though, which was my point. Guilds and player population isn't controlled, thus the unfair and imbalanced nature of open-world environments.
So that justifies amplifying the problem by pouring gasoline on the fire? Oh, well, since our game is already an imbalanced pile of shit, let's sell everything we got so we can milk this cow before they all quit. Makes sense.
That's not for me to defend. I'm just describing the problem. This is usually the nature of an open-world pvp game, so i can't say i'm surprised.
It's been getting more and more pay to win with practically every update.
All I want is my $100 back that I spent on the pre-order package.. to get [character bound] items worth barely $30 that did next to nothing for my playing experience.. especially after all the recent P2W additions.
I quit a few months ago because Daum's incompetent, ignorant and inept. Still hasn't changed.
I understand what your opinion on P2W is. I disagree.
Under your definition none of these MMORPGs are P2W and spending thousands of dollars to get BiS isn't P2W.
Can the BiS stats be obtained without spending real money? If so, then it's not P2W.
It is if BiS is a moving target. (and moving faster than you can grind) Best in slot today, isnt' by the time you get it.
You just described just about every mmo with progression. Gear treadmills are constantly moving. By this logic, expansion packs are considered P2W.
Against who? That makes no sense. When WoW releases an expansion, those who buy it move on out of the same arenas that non expansion games use. They are for all intents and purposes in completely different games
I was thinking about this game to fill the void that WoW left in me after 9 years of being all over Azeroth and the Outlands, but not now. I thought that the way that they dumbed down WoW was bad enough.....but this is one that I will pass on now.
The publisher is setting up a business model that will exploit players. Those in the game who will be dominating every aspect of it will be those spending lots of money in the shop. Those who grind out and play based on time will always be 2nd rate. That is not subjective.
2nd grade? Do you still not understand that those "2nd grade" players are the ones that already either have the gear or money for gear in first place and then sell spares and leftovers to those that spent RL money on cash shop?!
The gear still needs to be crafted to be sold to RL money spenders. It is the same gear anyone else is using, not a one bit better.
How many times do we have to go through this before people stop repeating that nonsense?
If you are going to quote me, at least quote me correctly. I stopped reading your post at "2nd grade"
Wait... Someone thought that at one time BDO wasn't P2W ?
That's news too me. Of course, I'm not a player of that game, I only read the comments people make about it. A definite part of the reason why I have zero plans to be a player of BDO.
So a few weeks ago I was playing chess in the park, and this rich guy came up and joined in the matches. I say he was a rich guy, because as he'd sit at a board, while they were playing, he'd hand the people next to him money for one or more of their pieces which he'd put in play on his board. I think he was going $20 for a pawn, and it looked like a $150 for a queen. It's true I wasn't playing him, but it really bugged me. Especially when Jeffie, the guy that keeps scores, declared the newb to be the days champion for winning the most matches.
That little story was of course a fabrication, but it does illustrate how P2W feels to the non-whales.
If anything from the cash shop makes the game quicker and easier, it's P2W.
According to your definition - Black Desert was P2W at launch as pets, Elions tears, costumes with trade boosts, weight increase, luck boost garments etc.... made the game easier and quicker
Yes, anything that prevents a game from being Play For Free (P4F) is P2W = P2P. If the P4F gamer can't play the game without spending money, because they want something in the cash shop. Then the game is open to the P2W smear campaign.
Truth, the P4F gamer is not entitled to play a game and win. Truth, the developer has every right and infact and obligation to sell so called P2W in the cash shop. The service must be paid for, so that it can last. The P4F gamer would have the game not be paid for, and not last. The perpetual failure in the gaming industry is due to those who cry P2W. They should be driven off, shunned, and exiled from gaming. They are another form of piracy.
If the P4F can't compete with those who buy items from the cash shop, that's the game play P4F paid for. And they best learn to live with it and accept it.
It is the duty of gaming commentator to educate public that they can't expect to play games for free. To do otherwise is to allow this ignorance / crime to grow and fester. It is tantamount to accessory to theft of service.
Games are a commodity made for the express purpose of making money. If they don't want to spend money they are free Not To Play.
The Hype meter is not being artificially inflated by the industry. Its being inflated by the P4F ilk that think the next game will be their Free Game Messiah, that will lead them to the promised land of full feature free gaming.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
The advocates supporting this P2W fiasco are the same people who buy gold from gold sellers and the reason gold sellers run rampant in MMOs now days. Little do they realize that by coming on these forums and making all of these excuses justifying the purchase of in game gold with real life money all they are doing is admitting that they are the same people who have been buying and suppprting these lowlife gold sellers that do nothing but ruin games, while all the while sneakily pretending to be against them. It's shameful. The hypocrisy in mindboggling.
I didn't know that describing and differentiating the concepts of what constitutes P2W, was somehow advocating illegal activities. You're doing a lot of projecting there.
I've never bought anything from a 3rd party seller in all my years of gaming, that violated any company's TOS.
I have presented an argument as to why i think it's not P2W (or whatever other word you want to use), to describe an unfair advantage. If you think people are wrong, then explain why, instead of hurling accusations at them.
Po-ta-toe ... Potato.
What's the difference, either way you word it at the end to the day ...
...you are still buying gold with real life money!
We can go on like this all day long.
EXPLANATION: The fact that you are not, somehow, violating some random TOS does not absolve you from that activity, and it certainly doesn't alleviate the exact same harm that the activity brings to the game, irrespective of the entity advancing it.
What are you talking about? It's not a random TOS. It's the terms of service. You either abide by them or you do not. No one is forcing you into an agreement.
You see the activity as being harmful, but that's your opinion. You need to state why it's harmful, otherwise your opinion isn't convincing. I'm not sure why anyone would need to feel "absolved" as if your opinion deems the activity as sinful. That's just nonsense.
Comments
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I've never bought anything from a 3rd party seller in all my years of gaming, that violated any company's TOS.
I have presented an argument as to why i think it's not P2W (or whatever other word you want to use), to describe an unfair advantage. If you think people are wrong, then explain why, instead of hurling accusations at them.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Po-ta-toe ... Potato.
What's the difference, either way you word it at the end to the day ...
...you are still buying gold with real life money!
Po-ta-toe ... Potato.
What's the difference, either way you word it at the end to the day ...
...you are still buying gold with real life money!
We can go on like this all day long.
EXPLANATION: The fact that you are not, somehow, violating some random TOS does not absolve you from that activity, and it certainly doesn't alleviate the exact same harm that the activity brings to the game, irrespective of the entity advancing it.
Hey bud, you got something to counter what I said, say it. Don't hide behind your chickenshit LOLs.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
EVE Online needs by design that all content is accessed and contested, it is what makes the economy, and the game, going.
It is still amusing to watch though.
All I want is my $100 back that I spent on the pre-order package.. to get [character bound] items worth barely $30 that did next to nothing for my playing experience.. especially after all the recent P2W additions.
I quit a few months ago because Daum's incompetent, ignorant and inept. Still hasn't changed.
The old... If You Can't Beat Em, Join Em arguement.
I just want to play a damn game, fuck the little kiddy goody store.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Nana Nanana Na Na Nanana
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
That's news too me. Of course, I'm not a player of that game, I only read the comments people make about it. A definite part of the reason why I have zero plans to be a player of BDO.
So a few weeks ago I was playing chess in the park, and this rich guy came up and joined in the matches. I say he was a rich guy, because as he'd sit at a board, while they were playing, he'd hand the people next to him money for one or more of their pieces which he'd put in play on his board. I think he was going $20 for a pawn, and it looked like a $150 for a queen. It's true I wasn't playing him, but it really bugged me. Especially when Jeffie, the guy that keeps scores, declared the newb to be the days champion for winning the most matches.
That little story was of course a fabrication, but it does illustrate how P2W feels to the non-whales.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
What do they spent RL money on and why..?
Yes, anything that prevents a game from being Play For Free (P4F) is P2W = P2P. If the P4F gamer can't play the game without spending money, because they want something in the cash shop. Then the game is open to the P2W smear campaign.
Truth, the P4F gamer is not entitled to play a game and win. Truth, the developer has every right and infact and obligation to sell so called P2W in the cash shop. The service must be paid for, so that it can last. The P4F gamer would have the game not be paid for, and not last. The perpetual failure in the gaming industry is due to those who cry P2W. They should be driven off, shunned, and exiled from gaming. They are another form of piracy.
If the P4F can't compete with those who buy items from the cash shop, that's the game play P4F paid for. And they best learn to live with it and accept it.
It is the duty of gaming commentator to educate public that they can't expect to play games for free. To do otherwise is to allow this ignorance / crime to grow and fester. It is tantamount to accessory to theft of service.
Games are a commodity made for the express purpose of making money. If they don't want to spend money they are free Not To Play.
The Hype meter is not being artificially inflated by the industry. Its being inflated by the P4F ilk that think the next game will be their Free Game Messiah, that will lead them to the promised land of full feature free gaming.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
You see the activity as being harmful, but that's your opinion. You need to state why it's harmful, otherwise your opinion isn't convincing. I'm not sure why anyone would need to feel "absolved" as if your opinion deems the activity as sinful. That's just nonsense.