Player X get's to endgame , spends xxxxxx amount of hours to grind gold to get upgrades etc
Player Y just bought the game , creates a level 1 character and get's the same gear as player X in a couple of minutes.
Enough said.
Player X has not paid for their game time and are playing for free. They are entitled to nothing. The purpose of P4F gamers is to lose to the paying customers. They aren't entitled to win, and sure as snot shouldn't expecty to. The days of access to everything free are number, and about to come to an end.
Listen, BDO is B2P. P4F gamers aren't playing BDO, so their cries of P2W are meaningless. They are wait for the day that BDO goes F2P so they can start to play. Then drive any money making items from the cash shop, so the producers will cancel the game. All part of the P4F agenda to ruin gaming and MMO gaming. By denying game makers a revenue stream.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Player X get's to endgame , spends xxxxxx amount of hours to grind gold to get upgrades etc
Player Y just bought the game , creates a level 1 character and get's the same gear as player X in a couple of minutes.
Enough said.
Player X has not paid for their game time and are playing for free. They are entitled to nothing. The purpose of P4F gamers is to lose to the paying customers. They aren't entitled to win, and sure as snot shouldn't expecty to. The days of access to everything free are number, and about to come to an end.
Listen, BDO is B2P. P4F gamers aren't playing BDO, so their cries of P2W are meaningless. They are wait for the day that BDO goes F2P so they can start to play. Then drive any money making items from the cash shop, so the producers will cancel the game. All part of the P4F agenda to ruin gaming and MMO gaming. By denying game makers a revenue stream.
Isn't P4F's something that the industry created themselves?
If your game doesn't make enough money, just maybe... it's their own damn fault and their own damn fuckup.
People always trying to lay the blame for their mistakes on others.
p.s. I'm perfectly happy purchasing and paying a sub for a game that's worthy of my time.
The advocates supporting this P2W fiasco are the same people who buy gold from gold sellers and the reason gold sellers run rampant in MMOs now days. Little do they realize that by coming on these forums and making all of these excuses justifying the purchase of in game gold with real life money all they are doing is admitting that they are the same people who have been buying and suppprting these lowlife gold sellers that do nothing but ruin games, while all the while sneakily pretending to be against them. It's shameful. The hypocrisy in mindboggling.
I didn't know that describing and differentiating the concepts of what constitutes P2W, was somehow advocating illegal activities. You're doing a lot of projecting there.
I've never bought anything from a 3rd party seller in all my years of gaming, that violated any company's TOS.
I have presented an argument as to why i think it's not P2W (or whatever other word you want to use), to describe an unfair advantage. If you think people are wrong, then explain why, instead of hurling accusations at them.
Po-ta-toe ... Potato.
What's the difference, either way you word it at the end to the day ...
...you are still buying gold with real life money!
We can go on like this all day long.
EXPLANATION: The fact that you are not, somehow, violating some random TOS does not absolve you from that activity, and it certainly doesn't alleviate the exact same harm that the activity brings to the game, irrespective of the entity advancing it.
What are you talking about? It's not a random TOS. It's the terms of service. You either abide by them or you do not. No one is forcing you into an agreement.
You see the activity as being harmful, but that's your opinion. You need to state why it's harmful, otherwise your opinion isn't convincing. I'm not sure why anyone would need to feel "absolved" as if your opinion deems the activity as sinful. That's just nonsense.
Thank you for that response. It was predictable and anticipated.
So according to you, the only thing that renders gold selling legal or illegal in your mind is the drafting of a TOS by the developer that either proclaims it legal or illegal, and even though that TOS may have been drafted by the developers for their own greedy self interest and benefit, it is suddenly the best thing since slice bread?
And if a company drafts a TOS that states that gold selling by outside sources is illegal, it is evil and you would therefore refrain from doing it, but if the developer drafts a TOS stating that gold selling is legal but only if done for their benefit, it is then legal and you would gladly engage in such a practice?
And if gold selling isn't harmful to a game, then why is it so universally frowned upon and condemned?
And if gold selling was not harmful, then why do gold sellers, and gold selling, have such a universally bad reputation due to that activity?
And if it is your stance that gold sellers/gold selling is a good thing, which is what you and others in this thread are implying by your support of the practice, then why do you feel insulted when it is alluded that what you are doing is no different than what players do when they buy gold from gold sellers when it isn't sanctioned via a developer TOS?
What is the difference between gold buying with real life money when it is sold by gold sellers but disallowed by developers because they simply draft a TOS against it because they are not personally profitting from it, and gold buying with real life money when sold by developers and allowed via a crooked cash shop business model and allowed simply because they drafted a shadyTOS allowing and personally profiting from it?
The epitome of "nonsense" is using a game developer's TOS, that was drafted with the sole purpose of reaping self-benefit, as a crutch and excuse to engage in exactly the same activity and behavior that would otherwise be considered as shady and unsavory, if it where otherwise advanced by an outside entity.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
P2W doesn't mean you can't achieve the same thing in the game without using real money. P2W means you can use real money to gain an advantage in the game, to attempt to suggest otherwise is disingenous. The problem is that real money becomes a significant resource for advancement, and i have yet to see a single argument that refutes that without resorting to obfuscating verbiage.
Yeah.. pretty sure we run on different principles / mentality... if i am waiting in line for something and someone cuts in front of me , i usually voice myself
Except you are in one line (your own) and they are in a different one, what difference to you if they get there first, they aren't slowing your line at all.
That's where u are wrong , they are in my line ... u cannot see it but trust me they are:) I soled my account after 2 weeks of playing this game because i honestly new that the so called one time payment wasn't going to happen. I only rant about this issue because i know there are allot of people that invested way way more then i did into the game and i know how i would feel if i knew that my +15 world boss weapon or w/e that i have spent hundreds of hours to get and it was pure rng luck that i got it because i have friends that have been playing 5 times the amount of time i have and have yet to get +15... do u see where i am going?
This is what gets me ..the biggest and loudest critics are the ones NOT EVEN PLAYING
Hah .. i played the game brother .. i got to lvl 55 on 2 characters , had +15 gear +acc tri/duo all that good stuff I am a hardcore gamer and been so for the past 10+years , it wasn't that difficult for me to reach endgame and get all that stuff... and i know a cashgrab when i see one the loot/weight fustration got the better of me and i handed them around 60$ or something , didn't even get a costume .. this was just weight + pets Listen , just the fact that they lied so shamefully about this whole issue is just a slap to the face to every consumer out there who just wanted to have some fun... We need to promote monthly sub mmo's .. this whole cashshop shit has got to go.
Yeah.. pretty sure we run on different principles / mentality... if i am waiting in line for something and someone cuts in front of me , i usually voice myself
Except you are in one line (your own) and they are in a different one, what difference to you if they get there first, they aren't slowing your line at all.
That's where u are wrong , they are in my line ... u cannot see it but trust me they are:) I soled my account after 2 weeks of playing this game because i honestly new that the so called one time payment wasn't going to happen. I only rant about this issue because i know there are allot of people that invested way way more then i did into the game and i know how i would feel if i knew that my +15 world boss weapon or w/e that i have spent hundreds of hours to get and it was pure rng luck that i got it because i have friends that have been playing 5 times the amount of time i have and have yet to get +15... do u see where i am going?
This is what gets me ..the biggest and loudest critics are the ones NOT EVEN PLAYING
Hah .. i played the game brother .. i got to lvl 55 on 2 characters , had +15 gear +acc tri/duo all that good stuff I am a hardcore gamer and been so for the past 10+years , it wasn't that difficult for me to reach endgame and get all that stuff... and i know a cashgrab when i see one the loot/weight fustration got the better of me and i handed them around 60$ or something , didn't even get a costume .. this was just weight + pets Listen , just the fact that they lied so shamefully about this whole issue is just a slap to the face to every consumer out there who just wanted to have some fun... We need to promote monthly sub mmo's .. this whole cashshop shit has got to go.
I am not sure i agree with all that, but if there is one thing that this whole debacle is reinforcing, its my desire to play P2P games exclusively. The thing that really bugs me though, is that prior to this BDO was an awesome game, to me its the equivalent of having a really awesome girlfriend, and then finding her one day doing coke lines, and then kicking their sorry arse out because of it.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
P2W doesn't mean you can't achieve the same thing in the game without using real money. P2W means you can use real money to gain an advantage in the game, to attempt to suggest otherwise is disingenous. The problem is that real money becomes a significant resource for advancement, and i have yet to see a single argument that refutes that without resorting to obfuscating verbiage. verbiagis of P2W.
Pay for advantage exists in every game, always has and always will.
If this is your definition of P2W than all games are Pay to Win making the definition pointless.
Real money is always an advantage due to account, gear and gold, power leveling etc.. sales and as long as money can buy these things, this will be the case.
And please saying that oh but using 3rd party services is cheating -please, it's used SO widely that excuse is completely moot.
People have always used money to gain an advantage in all facets of life, online gaming included.
The problem whit bdo is that it's very VERY gear dependent and player to player trading is not possible (except whit gold on the ah) Having an option where u can buy the best enchanted slot items whit $ as soon as u join the game is just horrible and if u don't see that as a problem then i suggest u go stick whit sp games.. If they would allow player to player trading gold/items etc then i honestly wouldn't of had a issue whit this , but when someone spends xxx amount of hours to get an item and someone else can just shamefully buy that item whit his cc (from them) ... then we have a problem! I understand your point of view .. i do but i really don't want this to happen because i don't want it to become a thing that it's widely accepted by the majority and see this shit in other mmo's being developed in the future..
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
P2W doesn't mean you can't achieve the same thing in the game without using real money. P2W means you can use real money to gain an advantage in the game, to attempt to suggest otherwise is disingenous. The problem is that real money becomes a significant resource for advancement, and i have yet to see a single argument that refutes that without resorting to obfuscating verbiage. verbiagis of P2W.
Pay for advantage exists in every game, always has and always will.
If this is your definition of P2W than all games are Pay to Win making the definition pointless.
Real money is always an advantage due to account, gear and gold, power leveling etc.. sales and as long as money can buy these things, this will be the case.
And please saying that oh but using 3rd party services is cheating -please, it's used SO widely that excuse is completely moot.
People have always used money to gain an advantage in all facets of life, online gaming included.
So your whole argument devolves to because it happens in other games, its okay? And no, pay for advantage does not exist in all games, that is one argument that i refute entirely. Although if you limit your examples to games with heavily monetised F2P cash shops, you would not be incorrect in your assessments. To include 3rd party services however, that are in clear violation of a games EULA, when the company is actively combating such services, is an entirely different argument, as that then becomes how effective is the anti RMT measures, and can player accounts be adversely affected if not removed, should they be discovered to be using such services.
You can make the argument that anyone, given potentially extreme amounts of time to play the game, can acquire the necessary gear and be just as 'powerful' compared to a person who simply opens their wallet. That doesn't mean it's the best overall situation.
Problem is, such a system typically deadens the overall game experience. As, game developers are out to make the most $$ for a title, so they spend little time on fun and interesting quests and game-systems, in favor instead of a system of long boring time-consuming grinds, in order to wear down the player to pull out their wallets to buy stuff instead. This, in some respects, simply to compete in PvP with other players.
Let's face it, it takes a small amount of time to open one's wallet, browse the shop and buy various direct and indirect P2W items. Compared to that the many many hours of grind and uninspired gameplay to accomplish the same by legitimately playing the game.
Sure, P2W in some form or another has been around for a long time. However, when gamemakers start to slack-off in game design and introduce tons of grind to a game, making the game just 'barely' fun, we all lose IMO.
South Park's Freemium video best represents this pathetic mentality. Sure, it's not directly a P2W MMORPG example, but there are similarities here.
Use lots of flashing chichings and compliments to make the player feel good about themselves
Train the players to spend your fake currency
Offer a the players to spend REAL currency for your FAKE currency
Make the game about waiting (GRIND), but let the payer PAY not to wait (P2W)
Can't the game at least be fun? (GRIND is usually NOT fun).
No No! It has to be just BARELY FUN, If the game was too fun, then there'd be no reason to pay real money to make it more fun! (Everyone likes to WIN, right? P2W)
Filterheadz said: Having an option where u can buy the best enchanted slot items whit $ as soon as u join the game is just horrible and if u don't see that as a problem then i suggest u go stick whit sp games..
That is a sound argument you got there.
If only someone has proposed it earlier, we could save ourselves much discussion.
Phry said:
So your whole argument devolves to because it happens in other games, its okay? And no, pay for advantage does not exist in all games, that is one argument that i refute entirely. Although if you limit your examples to games with heavily monetised F2P cash shops, you would not be incorrect in your assessments. To include 3rd party services however, that are in clear violation of a games EULA, when the company is actively combating such services, is an entirely different argument, as that then becomes how effective is the anti RMT measures, and can player accounts be adversely affected if not removed, should they be discovered to be using such services.
Still pushing that "games are special" argument?
People spending more money than others on computer HW to get better frame rate. People spending more money than others on VPN service to achieve lowest latency possible. People spending more money than others to run several accounts to achieve better efficiency. People spending more money than others on dedicated, programmable mouse and keyboards to do certain tasks faster. People spending more money than others on mentors and coaches. etc. etc.
Even if the game was void of any payment system, people would be still spending money on getting an "edge".
That is what people do, they spend money on things they enjoy, and some spend more than others.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
P2W doesn't mean you can't achieve the same thing in the game without using real money. P2W means you can use real money to gain an advantage in the game, to attempt to suggest otherwise is disingenous. The problem is that real money becomes a significant resource for advancement, and i have yet to see a single argument that refutes that without resorting to obfuscating verbiage. verbiagis of P2W.
Pay for advantage exists in every game, always has and always will.
If this is your definition of P2W than all games are Pay to Win making the definition pointless.
Real money is always an advantage due to account, gear and gold, power leveling etc.. sales and as long as money can buy these things, this will be the case.
And please saying that oh but using 3rd party services is cheating -please, it's used SO widely that excuse is completely moot.
People have always used money to gain an advantage in all facets of life, online gaming included.
So your whole argument devolves to because it happens in other games, its okay? And no, pay for advantage does not exist in all games, that is one argument that i refute entirely. Although if you limit your examples to games with heavily monetised F2P cash shops, you would not be incorrect in your assessments. To include 3rd party services however, that are in clear violation of a games EULA, when the company is actively combating such services, is an entirely different argument, as that then becomes how effective is the anti RMT measures, and can player accounts be adversely affected if not removed, should they be discovered to be using such services.
Take 2 players - give them 10 MMORPG games to play
Player 1 is given no money, player 2 is given $10,000 to spend on those games.
Their task is to reach max level as fast as possible using ANY ! means necessary including Eula violation.
Given than both players are of the same skill as far as playing each game, who will win?
EULA is meaningless - why even bring it up?
Look at the 3rd party gold/account/gear/power leveling industry - how did they become so massive?
Because millions of players ignore EULA and use money to buy an advantage in just about ALL online games.
Game companies go after gold sellers, once in a blue moon they go after the buyer.
This is how it actually is.
Money is a factor everywhere
Sorry, EULA's are useless? So if at the end of the experiment the person who spent $10,000 had their account banned and the one who didn't was able to still play the game, that would not be relevant?
At this point, i can only assume you are engaging in some kind of elaborate form of humour.
Just wanted to add, numerous MMO's engage in activities referred to as 'BANWAVES' in which various miscreants who engage in activities such as you describe lost everything they have paid so much money for. RMT companies are also responsible for hacking peoples email accounts etc to gain access to game accounts to provide the gold they 'sell' so justifying these companies or in any way giving them legitimacy, is more than a little morally questionable.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
P2W doesn't mean you can't achieve the same thing in the game without using real money. P2W means you can use real money to gain an advantage in the game, to attempt to suggest otherwise is disingenous. The problem is that real money becomes a significant resource for advancement, and i have yet to see a single argument that refutes that without resorting to obfuscating verbiage. verbiagis of P2W.
Pay for advantage exists in every game, always has and always will.
If this is your definition of P2W than all games are Pay to Win making the definition pointless.
Real money is always an advantage due to account, gear and gold, power leveling etc.. sales and as long as money can buy these things, this will be the case.
And please saying that oh but using 3rd party services is cheating -please, it's used SO widely that excuse is completely moot.
People have always used money to gain an advantage in all facets of life, online gaming included.
So your whole argument devolves to because it happens in other games, its okay? And no, pay for advantage does not exist in all games, that is one argument that i refute entirely. Although if you limit your examples to games with heavily monetised F2P cash shops, you would not be incorrect in your assessments. To include 3rd party services however, that are in clear violation of a games EULA, when the company is actively combating such services, is an entirely different argument, as that then becomes how effective is the anti RMT measures, and can player accounts be adversely affected if not removed, should they be discovered to be using such services.
Take 2 players - give them 10 MMORPG games to play
Player 1 is given no money, player 2 is given $10,000 to spend on those games.
Their task is to reach max level as fast as possible using ANY ! means necessary including Eula violation.
Given than both players are of the same skill as far as playing each game, who will win?
EULA is meaningless - why even bring it up?
Look at the 3rd party gold/account/gear/power leveling industry - how did they become so massive?
Because millions of players ignore EULA and use money to buy an advantage in just about ALL online games.
Game companies go after gold sellers, once in a blue moon they go after the buyer.
This is how it actually is.
Money is a factor everywhere
Sorry, EULA's are useless? So if at the end of the experiment the person who spent $10,000 had their account banned and the one who didn't was able to still play the game, that would not be relevant?
At this point, i can only assume you are engaging in some kind of elaborate form of humour.
Just wanted to add, numerous MMO's engage in activities referred to as 'BANWAVES' in which various miscreants who engage in activities such as you describe lost everything they have paid so much money for. RMT companies are also responsible for hacking peoples email accounts etc to gain access to game accounts to provide the gold they 'sell' so justifying these companies or in any way giving them legitimacy, is more than a little morally questionable.
No - you know who gets caught in banwaves:
Botters, people using 3rd party apps to snipe AH, etc... that's who they are after.
Do you know how many people who buy gold/gear or accounts get banned in "BANWAVES" - a tiny fraction of 1%.
Do you know why - because game companies don't want to ban such a huge percent of their own players who don't use any 3rd party tools - oh they know people are buying stuff, but they also see they're not doing any 3rd party hacks so they let it slide.
Game companies go after people using 3rd party automation - which is how gold sellers make their money in the first place.
I don't use RMT myself (never have as I have so many friends in the gaming industry - and RMT companies are CANCER to the gaming business) - however the use is widespread from what I've been told and again it's extremely rare that anyone gets busted for it.
So in your example - the person who spent $10,000 in 10 different games would have a miniscule chance of getting banned - unless they were botting or using some stupid 3rd party hack.
As long as they stuck to only purchasing gold/gear or accounts - nothing would happen.
I think the single best example of people using RMT services losing their accounts, would be Eve Online, CCP pursue people who use such services very aggressively and have a team dedicated to just such activity. Square Enix, as recently as last september, banned 4600 accounts for using RMT services, and a further 800 accounts for 'spamming' advertisements for such services. And, didn't Blizzard hand out a 6 month ban to over 100,000 players last year? Thing about people who use RMT services is that they do stand to lose their accounts, possibly the only MMO's that don't do much about those things are F2P games. Personally i am more than happy to see people who use RMT services lose their accounts, its bad enough when games have P2W features without that added complication, and i totally agree that RMT is a cancer for MMO's, i don't think there is a single example of RMT not hurting a games economy or adversely affecting a games playerbase.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
P2W doesn't mean you can't achieve the same thing in the game without using real money. P2W means you can use real money to gain an advantage in the game, to attempt to suggest otherwise is disingenous. The problem is that real money becomes a significant resource for advancement, and i have yet to see a single argument that refutes that without resorting to obfuscating verbiage. verbiagis of P2W.
Pay for advantage exists in every game, always has and always will.
If this is your definition of P2W than all games are Pay to Win making the definition pointless.
Real money is always an advantage due to account, gear and gold, power leveling etc.. sales and as long as money can buy these things, this will be the case.
And please saying that oh but using 3rd party services is cheating -please, it's used SO widely that excuse is completely moot.
People have always used money to gain an advantage in all facets of life, online gaming included.
The problem whit bdo is that it's very VERY gear dependent and player to player trading is not possible (except whit gold on the ah) Having an option where u can buy the best enchanted slot items whit $ as soon as u join the game is just horrible and if u don't see that as a problem then i suggest u go stick whit sp games.. If they would allow player to player trading gold/items etc then i honestly wouldn't of had a issue whit this , but when someone spends xxx amount of hours to get an item and someone else can just shamefully buy that item whit his cc (from them) ... then we have a problem! I understand your point of view .. i do but i really don't want this to happen because i don't want it to become a thing that it's widely accepted by the majority and see this shit in other mmo's being developed in the future..
BDO is very gear dependent and BiS is sold both in Auction house and by the Night vendor for in-game currency (silver).
So yes after Kakao/Daum introduces cash shop items to be sold for in-game silver, anyone will be able to put up items for sale and get a lot of silver by spending RL money.
But the problem remains that getting a full set of +20 BiS even given billions of silver is STILL not an easy thing to do and takes a lot of time.
So it's not quite as easy as - swiping your card, and just flat out buying a full +20 set in 1min flat - because they are not selling that in the cash shop.
And NOBODY is selling +20 stuff in auction house, so even if you had a trillion silver you can't buy it.
This is exactly like ArcheAge when everyone was screaming "P2W" - but the fact that having a billion dollars could not get you the best gear because NOBODY was selling it - as nobody could make it. (BTW this is still the case today, BiS gear in ArcheAge is for all practical purposes unattainable).
Yes brother i hear yah but the fact that u can get something really close to that bis whit just your cc is still a huge slap in the face to players who spent hundreds of hours getting that +15/16/17... which i am pretty sure u can get yes whit the right amount of silver... U talked about rmt plvl options etc , check the forums.. everyone is selling their accounts , no one wants this .. it's to low for anyone to accept it , well maybe the people that have already invested thousands of $ , they will still be there for sure but from a logical and fair point of view , playing a mmo in which u can buy (close to bis ok) gear as soon as u join the game is no fun , even if that does not impact u in anyway!
Top Guilds are now requesting a X amount of $$ spent monthly to continue playing in said guilds... so yeah.. think a lil about that
Except this is not real.
It's top guilds anti P2W propaganda.
No actual guild would ask this of any member seriously
Just a no-p2w tactics
LOL don't even try that on me, i just left a said guild (i wont mention because i have friends there and also i respect the guild), because i refused to spend a min of 45 bucks monthly to buy value pack and sell some shit to stay competitive.
It's the reality of things, don't even try when you fail to be on the lvl to properly join and understand top guilds mate.
I think the single best example of people using RMT services losing their accounts, would be Eve Online, CCP pursue people who use such services very aggressively and have a team dedicated to just such activity. Square Enix, as recently as last september, banned 4600 accounts for using RMT services, and a further 800 accounts for 'spamming' advertisements for such services. And, didn't Blizzard hand out a 6 month ban to over 100,000 players last year? Thing about people who use RMT services is that they do stand to lose their accounts, possibly the only MMO's that don't do much about those things are F2P games. Personally i am more than happy to see people who use RMT services lose their accounts, its bad enough when games have P2W features without that added complication, and i totally agree that RMT is a cancer for MMO's, i don't think there is a single example of RMT not hurting a games economy or adversely affecting a games playerbase.
I'd love nothing more than see RMT companies wiped off the face of the Earth for good.
Have players gotten banned for RMT use in the past - of course they have. Is it something that's common, unfortunately not so much.
Going after botting, hacking 3rd party exploits is priority #1 and the huge bulk of ban waves consists of these accounts - these are usually permanent bans.
When companies go after rmt buyers, they usually just remove the gear or gold purchased and give a warning. They might give a temp ban on repeat offense.
But perm ban for simply buying is pretty rare.
Its not possible to define what the percentage of players who engage in using RMT services and subsequently lose their accounts are, in order to say that it is rare, all we know is that in P2P games at least, 1000's of players in those games lose their accounts every year, that they happen in 'ban waves' is something we are seeing more often. It might even be possible that rather than being rare, it is the norm, i can say that with equal accuracy as you can state that it is rare, as we don't know what percentage are actually caught. That such bans also serve as a deterrent to other players who might consider using such services, means that such bans have an amplified effect on potential users of RMT services. https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/team-security-now-with-100-percent-more-anti-rmt/ And that was 4 years ago, if there is one thing that you can say with certainty about Eve Online, is that your chances of getting away with using RMT services are not good, and CCP don't care who loses assets as a result of their 'bans' and asset deletion regarding RMT, that even 'innocent' players who are involved in the paper trail of asset reclamation can end up losing significant resources, so you can't even launder RMT obtained Isk in Eve. And as was stated by CCP, bans are without warning, its not 3 strikes and your out, your just out. For FFXIV:ARR, what proportion of the 4600 players who lost their accounts last year were first time offenders? we'll probably never know, but you can be sure some of them were, and you can be sure that at some point this year, SE will announce how many more people have lost their accounts because they used RMT services. The thing about banning users of RMT services, is that you don't have to 'catch em all' in order to have a positive effect, as long as it becomes a gamble for those who use those services, that they can lose everything they have just paid so much money for, then that in itself is a success. Either way, i personally think the numbers caught in FFXIV:ARR were probably greater than 10% of those who engaged in it, and may even have been greater than 50%, because the number of people who use RMT services out of the overall playerbase, i would think are very small, most players i know are honest, and i would like to think i am not mistaken about the integrity of my fellow gamers.
I have never been a hardcore player. I can't dedicate a ton of time to a game because I have other obligations in real life. The thing is I have never felt like I should have all the stuff people that have worked harder than I have. Being able to buy your way through the game kind of ruins the sense of accomplishment you get. Games where you can buy your way to success get boring pretty fast, because the game stops being about playing and becomes about buying and keeping up with the Jones. Games that require thought and planning, games that require effort for reward, games that require you actually play them allow you to build an attachment to your character and their story. It is what keeps me coming back. If my character is just some cookie cutter template with a bunch of gear that I bought in a store and rushed to cap with store bought xp potions, there is no sense of attachment and nothing to keep me interested.
Comments
Player X has not paid for their game time and are playing for free. They are entitled to nothing. The purpose of P4F gamers is to lose to the paying customers. They aren't entitled to win, and sure as snot shouldn't expecty to. The days of access to everything free are number, and about to come to an end.
Listen, BDO is B2P. P4F gamers aren't playing BDO, so their cries of P2W are meaningless. They are wait for the day that BDO goes F2P so they can start to play. Then drive any money making items from the cash shop, so the producers will cancel the game. All part of the P4F agenda to ruin gaming and MMO gaming. By denying game makers a revenue stream.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
If your game doesn't make enough money, just maybe... it's their own damn fault and their own damn fuckup.
People always trying to lay the blame for their mistakes on others.
p.s. I'm perfectly happy purchasing and paying a sub for a game that's worthy of my time.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Thank you for that response. It was predictable and anticipated.
So according to you, the only thing that renders gold selling legal or illegal in your mind is the drafting of a TOS by the developer that either proclaims it legal or illegal, and even though that TOS may have been drafted by the developers for their own greedy self interest and benefit, it is suddenly the best thing since slice bread?
And if a company drafts a TOS that states that gold selling by outside sources is illegal, it is evil and you would therefore refrain from doing it, but if the developer drafts a TOS stating that gold selling is legal but only if done for their benefit, it is then legal and you would gladly engage in such a practice?
And if gold selling isn't harmful to a game, then why is it so universally frowned upon and condemned?
And if gold selling was not harmful, then why do gold sellers, and gold selling, have such a universally bad reputation due to that activity?
And if it is your stance that gold sellers/gold selling is a good thing, which is what you and others in this thread are implying by your support of the practice, then why do you feel insulted when it is alluded that what you are doing is no different than what players do when they buy gold from gold sellers when it isn't sanctioned via a developer TOS?
What is the difference between gold buying with real life money when it is sold by gold sellers but disallowed by developers because they simply draft a TOS against it because they are not personally profitting from it, and gold buying with real life money when sold by developers and allowed via a crooked cash shop business model and allowed simply because they drafted a shadyTOS allowing and personally profiting from it?
The epitome of "nonsense" is using a game developer's TOS, that was drafted with the sole purpose of reaping self-benefit, as a crutch and excuse to engage in exactly the same activity and behavior that would otherwise be considered as shady and unsavory, if it where otherwise advanced by an outside entity.
What is harmful is activities, often illegal, attached to RMT.
That is the difference between "gold selling" by devs and buying gold against TOS from 3rd parties.
This was discussed to hell at BDO launch and confirmed by events followed after launch so you should know that already.
There is no mention in that quote, or anywhere in my post above, about micro-transactions.
Focus.
The ones selling in-game currency are players.
Whatever is sold in cash shop by devs is called micro-transaction.
RMT and gold selling refers to 3rd parties.
You are the one lumping everything together.
*laughs*
I wonder about you sometimes ...
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
P2W means you can use real money to gain an advantage in the game, to attempt to suggest otherwise is disingenous.
The problem is that real money becomes a significant resource for advancement, and i have yet to see a single argument that refutes that without resorting to obfuscating verbiage.
The thing that really bugs me though, is that prior to this BDO was an awesome game, to me its the equivalent of having a really awesome girlfriend, and then finding her one day doing coke lines, and then kicking their sorry arse out because of it.
The problem whit bdo is that it's very VERY gear dependent and player to player trading is not possible (except whit gold on the ah)
Having an option where u can buy the best enchanted slot items whit $ as soon as u join the game is just horrible and if u don't see that as a problem then i suggest u go stick whit sp games..
If they would allow player to player trading gold/items etc then i honestly wouldn't of had a issue whit this , but when someone spends xxx amount of hours to get an item and someone else can just shamefully buy that item whit his cc (from them) ... then we have a problem!
I understand your point of view .. i do but i really don't want this to happen because i don't want it to become a thing that it's widely accepted by the majority and see this shit in other mmo's being developed in the future..
And no, pay for advantage does not exist in all games, that is one argument that i refute entirely.
Although if you limit your examples to games with heavily monetised F2P cash shops, you would not be incorrect in your assessments.
To include 3rd party services however, that are in clear violation of a games EULA, when the company is actively combating such services, is an entirely different argument, as that then becomes how effective is the anti RMT measures, and can player accounts be adversely affected if not removed, should they be discovered to be using such services.
That doesn't mean it's the best overall situation.
Problem is, such a system typically deadens the overall game experience. As, game developers are out to make the most $$ for a title, so they spend little time on fun and interesting quests and game-systems, in favor instead of a system of long boring time-consuming grinds, in order to wear down the player to pull out their wallets to buy stuff instead. This, in some respects, simply to compete in PvP with other players.
Let's face it, it takes a small amount of time to open one's wallet, browse the shop and buy various direct and indirect P2W items. Compared to that the many many hours of grind and uninspired gameplay to accomplish the same by legitimately playing the game.
Sure, P2W in some form or another has been around for a long time. However, when gamemakers start to slack-off in game design and introduce tons of grind to a game, making the game just 'barely' fun, we all lose IMO.
South Park's Freemium video best represents this pathetic mentality.
Sure, it's not directly a P2W MMORPG example, but there are similarities here.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x29j5hz_south-park-has-bad-news-for-gamers-freemium-gaming-isn-t-really-free_fun
- Entice the player with simple game loop
- Use lots of flashing chichings and compliments to make the player feel good about themselves
- Train the players to spend your fake currency
- Offer a the players to spend REAL currency for your FAKE currency
- Make the game about waiting (GRIND), but let the payer PAY not to wait (P2W)
Can't the game at least be fun? (GRIND is usually NOT fun).No No! It has to be just BARELY FUN, If the game was too fun, then there'd be no reason to pay real money to make it more fun! (Everyone likes to WIN, right? P2W)
If only someone has proposed it earlier, we could save ourselves much discussion.
People spending more money than others on computer HW to get better frame rate.
People spending more money than others on VPN service to achieve lowest latency possible.
People spending more money than others to run several accounts to achieve better efficiency.
People spending more money than others on dedicated, programmable mouse and keyboards to do certain tasks faster.
People spending more money than others on mentors and coaches.
etc.
etc.
Even if the game was void of any payment system, people would be still spending money on getting an "edge".
That is what people do, they spend money on things they enjoy, and some spend more than others.
So if at the end of the experiment the person who spent $10,000 had their account banned and the one who didn't was able to still play the game, that would not be relevant?
At this point, i can only assume you are engaging in some kind of elaborate form of humour.
Just wanted to add, numerous MMO's engage in activities referred to as 'BANWAVES' in which various miscreants who engage in activities such as you describe lost everything they have paid so much money for. RMT companies are also responsible for hacking peoples email accounts etc to gain access to game accounts to provide the gold they 'sell' so justifying these companies or in any way giving them legitimacy, is more than a little morally questionable.
Square Enix, as recently as last september, banned 4600 accounts for using RMT services, and a further 800 accounts for 'spamming' advertisements for such services.
And, didn't Blizzard hand out a 6 month ban to over 100,000 players last year?
Thing about people who use RMT services is that they do stand to lose their accounts, possibly the only MMO's that don't do much about those things are F2P games.
Personally i am more than happy to see people who use RMT services lose their accounts, its bad enough when games have P2W features without that added complication, and i totally agree that RMT is a cancer for MMO's, i don't think there is a single example of RMT not hurting a games economy or adversely affecting a games playerbase.
U talked about rmt plvl options etc , check the forums.. everyone is selling their accounts , no one wants this .. it's to low for anyone to accept it , well maybe the people that have already invested thousands of $ , they will still be there for sure but from a logical and fair point of view , playing a mmo in which u can buy (close to bis ok) gear as soon as u join the game is no fun , even if that does not impact u in anyway!
It's the reality of things, don't even try when you fail to be on the lvl to properly join and understand top guilds mate.
It might even be possible that rather than being rare, it is the norm, i can say that with equal accuracy as you can state that it is rare, as we don't know what percentage are actually caught.
That such bans also serve as a deterrent to other players who might consider using such services, means that such bans have an amplified effect on potential users of RMT services.
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/team-security-now-with-100-percent-more-anti-rmt/
And that was 4 years ago, if there is one thing that you can say with certainty about Eve Online, is that your chances of getting away with using RMT services are not good, and CCP don't care who loses assets as a result of their 'bans' and asset deletion regarding RMT, that even 'innocent' players who are involved in the paper trail of asset reclamation can end up losing significant resources, so you can't even launder RMT obtained Isk in Eve.
And as was stated by CCP, bans are without warning, its not 3 strikes and your out, your just out.
For FFXIV:ARR, what proportion of the 4600 players who lost their accounts last year were first time offenders? we'll probably never know, but you can be sure some of them were, and you can be sure that at some point this year, SE will announce how many more people have lost their accounts because they used RMT services.
The thing about banning users of RMT services, is that you don't have to 'catch em all' in order to have a positive effect, as long as it becomes a gamble for those who use those services, that they can lose everything they have just paid so much money for, then that in itself is a success.
Either way, i personally think the numbers caught in FFXIV:ARR were probably greater than 10% of those who engaged in it, and may even have been greater than 50%, because the number of people who use RMT services out of the overall playerbase, i would think are very small, most players i know are honest, and i would like to think i am not mistaken about the integrity of my fellow gamers.