Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
P2W doesn't mean you can't achieve the same thing in the game without using real money. P2W means you can use real money to gain an advantage in the game, to attempt to suggest otherwise is disingenous. The problem is that real money becomes a significant resource for advancement, and i have yet to see a single argument that refutes that without resorting to obfuscating verbiage. verbiagis of P2W.
Pay for advantage exists in every game, always has and always will.
If this is your definition of P2W than all games are Pay to Win making the definition pointless.
Real money is always an advantage due to account, gear and gold, power leveling etc.. sales and as long as money can buy these things, this will be the case.
And please saying that oh but using 3rd party services is cheating -please, it's used SO widely that excuse is completely moot.
People have always used money to gain an advantage in all facets of life, online gaming included.
So your whole argument devolves to because it happens in other games, its okay? And no, pay for advantage does not exist in all games, that is one argument that i refute entirely. Although if you limit your examples to games with heavily monetised F2P cash shops, you would not be incorrect in your assessments. To include 3rd party services however, that are in clear violation of a games EULA, when the company is actively combating such services, is an entirely different argument, as that then becomes how effective is the anti RMT measures, and can player accounts be adversely affected if not removed, should they be discovered to be using such services.
Take 2 players - give them 10 MMORPG games to play
Player 1 is given no money, player 2 is given $10,000 to spend on those games.
Their task is to reach max level as fast as possible using ANY ! means necessary including Eula violation.
Given than both players are of the same skill as far as playing each game, who will win?
EULA is meaningless - why even bring it up?
Look at the 3rd party gold/account/gear/power leveling industry - how did they become so massive?
Because millions of players ignore EULA and use money to buy an advantage in just about ALL online games.
Game companies go after gold sellers, once in a blue moon they go after the buyer.
This is how it actually is.
Money is a factor everywhere
When money becomes a factor it ceases to be a game.
"Their task is to reach max level as fast as possible using ANY ! means necessary including Eula violation"
That is just fucked up.
Fuck maybe I should of payed $$$ to my DM in D&D for better gear, it would have made the game more fun.
Hey it's a great money making racket but a shitty games it does make and the playership numbers after a handful of months in these games is the proof in the pudding.
I think the single best example of people using RMT services losing their accounts, would be Eve Online, CCP pursue people who use such services very aggressively and have a team dedicated to just such activity. Square Enix, as recently as last september, banned 4600 accounts for using RMT services, and a further 800 accounts for 'spamming' advertisements for such services. And, didn't Blizzard hand out a 6 month ban to over 100,000 players last year? Thing about people who use RMT services is that they do stand to lose their accounts, possibly the only MMO's that don't do much about those things are F2P games. Personally i am more than happy to see people who use RMT services lose their accounts, its bad enough when games have P2W features without that added complication, and i totally agree that RMT is a cancer for MMO's, i don't think there is a single example of RMT not hurting a games economy or adversely affecting a games playerbase.
I'd love nothing more than see RMT companies wiped off the face of the Earth for good.
Have players gotten banned for RMT use in the past - of course they have. Is it something that's common, unfortunately not so much.
Going after botting, hacking 3rd party exploits is priority #1 and the huge bulk of ban waves consists of these accounts - these are usually permanent bans.
When companies go after rmt buyers, they usually just remove the gear or gold purchased and give a warning. They might give a temp ban on repeat offense.
But perm ban for simply buying is pretty rare.
Developers should've given permanent bans, but they were too worried about losing the money. I bet you they lost a lot more by handling it the way they did.
Same dumb "argument" as casuals in WoW make for years: "how does it affect your play time if I get X or Y?"
Well, it DOES. You're supposed to play by the rules, not to shortcut parts of the game with gold, money or other currencies. If there's a farm ahead, you NEED to farm it, or not get rewarded.
NO SHORTCUTS. Shortcuts to reach rewards is P2W.
I think the single best example of people using RMT services losing their accounts, would be Eve Online, CCP pursue people who use such services very aggressively and have a team dedicated to just such activity. Square Enix, as recently as last september, banned 4600 accounts for using RMT services, and a further 800 accounts for 'spamming' advertisements for such services. And, didn't Blizzard hand out a 6 month ban to over 100,000 players last year? Thing about people who use RMT services is that they do stand to lose their accounts, possibly the only MMO's that don't do much about those things are F2P games. Personally i am more than happy to see people who use RMT services lose their accounts, its bad enough when games have P2W features without that added complication, and i totally agree that RMT is a cancer for MMO's, i don't think there is a single example of RMT not hurting a games economy or adversely affecting a games playerbase.
I'd love nothing more than see RMT companies wiped off the face of the Earth for good.
Have players gotten banned for RMT use in the past - of course they have. Is it something that's common, unfortunately not so much.
Going after botting, hacking 3rd party exploits is priority #1 and the huge bulk of ban waves consists of these accounts - these are usually permanent bans.
When companies go after rmt buyers, they usually just remove the gear or gold purchased and give a warning. They might give a temp ban on repeat offense.
But perm ban for simply buying is pretty rare.
Developers should've given permanent bans, but they were too worried about losing the money. I bet you they lost a lot more by handling it the way they did.
Kano often makes little sense with his arguments. He believe's he is advancing a legitimate point by differentiating botters from gold sellers when stating that game developers ban botters because they are harmful to a game but they do not ban gold sellers because they are not.
What exactly does he really believe is the ultimate objective for botting by the vast majority of botters if it isn't to sell gold?
And why exactly are botters so evil and worthy of a ban in his opinion when the vast remainder of those botters who are not botting to sell gold are doing it to "advance" or "progress" faster, which is a practice that he has been strongly advocating in all of his posts?
OK OK,,,, we get it,,,, to all that call this P2W we get the pic!!! Any game that lets you get in game cash from the cash shop is P2W,,,, But I think you're really missing the whole pic here... Dumn is a business that needs to show a profit to stay in buisness. They also need to pay the devs that make more content for you too play. So here are a few question too ask yourself.
1. Do you want BDO to continue to be a open game?
2. Do you want to see new content added from time to time?
3. Do you want them too fix bugs from time to time?
4. Do you want to be able to send in a support ticket and get an answer?
If you said yes to any of those,,, then the game needs to make income so it can pay for these things to happen,,, and yes you have to pay for this game ,,, but thats not enough to keep the game going.. So get off you high horse and realize these people that are buying these things and selling them are paying for your game play.... so you really should thank them so you dont have to pay to play.....
Oh and just in case you're not sure,,,,, no making in game money in game and buying stuff in the market place does not pay for the op cost of the game...
I like BDO and will continue too play and hey,,,, may be this will get rid of the asses the like to hack and PK peeps just because they can
OK OK,,,, we get it,,,, to all that call this P2W we get the pic!!! Any game that lets you get in game cash from the cash shop is P2W,,,, But I think you're really missing the whole pic here... Dumn is a business that needs to show a profit to stay in buisness. They also need to pay the devs that make more content for you too play. So here are a few question too ask yourself.
1. Do you want BDO to continue to be a open game?
2. Do you want to see new content added from time to time?
3. Do you want them too fix bugs from time to time?
4. Do you want to be able to send in a support ticket and get an answer?
If you said yes to any of those,,, then the game needs to make income so it can pay for these things to happen,,, and yes you have to pay for this game ,,, but thats not enough to keep the game going.. So get off you high horse and realize these people that are buying these things and selling them are paying for your game play.... so you really should thank them so you dont have to pay to play.....
Oh and just in case you're not sure,,,,, no making in game money in game and buying stuff in the market place does not pay for the op cost of the game...
I like BDO and will continue too play and hey,,,, may be this will get rid of the asses the like to hack and PK peeps just because they can
1. No, because any game that has this shit in it should shut down.
All other points are useless with above comment, IMO.
Is there anyway I get refund because of this new business model?
I can only speak for myself - if you've gotten $30 of entertainment out of it, why even go there?
Look at you total play time in hours - if its more than 30 hours I think you got your money's worth $1 per hour is pretty damn good.
Of course you can always call your credit/bank and ask for a refund but IMO again if you've been playing since launch - to me this seems terribly shitty.
yes but at the same time would teach then plus others to not pull this kind of thing again, company will only do things who will bring more revenue, hurting it will make then more likely to listen
It's easy to say "it doesn't bother or detract for my experience" then ignore it until it does. Is there a point when it would? I just ask you all to react to this far before this point. Do not allow it to progress to even in sight of this point. I am finding that once it is there it is too late. A great game is hard to find and harder to keep.
If anything from the cash shop makes the game quicker and easier, it's P2W.
According to your definition - Black Desert was P2W at launch as pets, Elions tears, costumes with trade boosts, weight increase, luck boost garments etc.... made the game easier and quicker
GeezerGamer said: Whales can craft items to re sell too
If that is the case, how does someone with abundance of ingame resources become a "whale" when they can buy everything with ingame money?
What do they spent RL money on and why..?
I think we'd have to establish some context to answer your question. How did they get their wealth in the game? How is that relative to other's wealth in the game? Does this person use the cash shop? Do others relative to this person use the cash shop. How long have they been doing that? I'd need specifics about what game we are talking about, the business model, the mechanics and the hypothetical scenario.
But honestly, let's not. Let's just agree to disagree here.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
"Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. "
Summed up perfectly. Many fail to see this though.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
"Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. "
Summed up perfectly. Many fail to see this though.
Thats the bare bones of it but there is also the grey areas. Like using RL money to buy cash shop items. Sell said item on cash shop. Use ingame coin you just earned to buy a spot on a raid to get geared (yes guild sell raid gear this way) and now you have a char thats uber all because of RL money. Some would say you can do the same by earning in game gold so no problem. But I can see where some would have a problem with this.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
P2W doesn't mean you can't achieve the same thing in the game without using real money. P2W means you can use real money to gain an advantage in the game, to attempt to suggest otherwise is disingenous. The problem is that real money becomes a significant resource for advancement, and i have yet to see a single argument that refutes that without resorting to obfuscating verbiage.
Advancement doesn't equal advantage.
Advancement just speeds up the process to compete.
In the context of an MMO, what is the advantage? It's the buying of stats/power, for real money, while competing in various activities (pvp or raiding).
If others cannot obtain those stats without using real money, then they must pay in order to stay competitive. If those stats can be obtained without using real money, then it's not paying to compete (or winning if you prefer).
Is there anyway I get refund because of this new business model?
I can only speak for myself - if you've gotten $30 of entertainment out of it, why even go there?
To punish them for lying, obviously.
Be careful you don't get punished for abusive tentative of charge back. Credit card companies aren't very kind with such things.
It is a bit risky. They definitely mislead us, though.
From a QandA before the release:
Q: ''Will you be a p2win game''?
A: ''No! We arent and wont be a pay to win game''
Couple that with numerous other statements about not going p2w or the monetization model is the way it is to avoid p2w and I think it's perfectly justified.
Not to mention there are reports of many chargebacks being successful. If you chargeback a company that's getting bombarded by chargebacks, obviously your credit card company is going to believe something is up (and something really is up).
If I were Kakao, I wouldn't be as worried about chargebacks as I would be a lawsuit, though.
Once again we have a situation where people want to use the broad stroke definition of pay to win. This is not an "up for debate" subject and you do not arbitrarily get to decide what Pay to win means and change it based off what you personally believe pay to win is. Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. This means buying weapons and armor that only exist in the sense of a cash shop, or things that overtly effect your stats for PVP. Someone putting in time and energy can and will compete with supposed cash shop purchasers as there is a gate to how high you can go on "grading" the equipment.
Paying to get the better gear sooner than other people is not "winning" and these items still need to *gasp* be earned in world by someone so they can sell them to these other people in the first place... For that matter people aren't going to sell these items that are higher until they themselves likely already have them further meaning those people are only ever playing catch up at best...
And no I don't want to hear your childish "That's exactly what the devs want you to think" BS line some of you tend to spew. The definition of P2W has been long standing and shouldn't arbitrarily just be changed because some of you don't want anyone ever being able to catch up with you if they are semi new to the game...
"Pay to win has and always will mean gaining power that is not attainable by in game means through the use of money. "
Summed up perfectly. Many fail to see this though.
Thats the bare bones of it but there is also the grey areas. Like using RL money to buy cash shop items. Sell said item on cash shop. Use ingame coin you just earned to buy a spot on a raid to get geared (yes guild sell raid gear this way) and now you have a char thats uber all because of RL money. Some would say you can do the same by earning in game gold so no problem. But I can see where some would have a problem with this.
It's still not P2W. I'll concede that some games make it near impossible, to achieve anything feasible, unless you spend cash, but at that point, people will just quit. I don't see it as a problem in BDO though, but we will see once the transition takes place.
I think what will happen is that some people will leave, some people will still play yet complain and some people will actually use the system.
Is Archeage still around? Well, it has been called a pay to win game but it's still around with people.
Additionally, both Aion and Tera have this system and they are still around as well.
Aion, Tera, and Archeage are all f2p games. They were f2p in conjunction with going p2w. Also, prices are not totally insane. It doesn't cost $30 for an outfit in any of those games, for example.
Sure, though, it's very hard for an MMO to actually die. After tomorrow, though, BDO will be a hobbling husk of what could have been, devoid of meaning or any passionate players.
Sure, though, it's very hard for an MMO to actually die. After tomorrow, though, BDO will be a hobbling husk of what could have been, devoid of meaning or any passionate players.
Sounds great, right?
hmmm, we'll see. I think you will be surprised how many people "don't leave".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
"Their task is to reach max level as fast as possible using ANY ! means necessary including Eula violation"
That is just fucked up.
Fuck maybe I should of payed $$$ to my DM in D&D for better gear, it would have made the game more fun.
Hey it's a great money making racket but a shitty games it does make and the playership numbers after a handful of months in these games is the proof in the pudding.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Well, it DOES. You're supposed to play by the rules, not to shortcut parts of the game with gold, money or other currencies. If there's a farm ahead, you NEED to farm it, or not get rewarded.
NO SHORTCUTS. Shortcuts to reach rewards is P2W.
What exactly does he really believe is the ultimate objective for botting by the vast majority of botters if it isn't to sell gold?
And why exactly are botters so evil and worthy of a ban in his opinion when the vast remainder of those botters who are not botting to sell gold are doing it to "advance" or "progress" faster, which is a practice that he has been strongly advocating in all of his posts?
Inquiring minds would like to know.
1. Do you want BDO to continue to be a open game?
2. Do you want to see new content added from time to time?
3. Do you want them too fix bugs from time to time?
4. Do you want to be able to send in a support ticket and get an answer?
If you said yes to any of those,,, then the game needs to make income so it can pay for these things to happen,,, and yes you have to pay for this game ,,, but thats not enough to keep the game going.. So get off you high horse and realize these people that are buying these things and selling them are paying for your game play.... so you really should thank them so you dont have to pay to play.....
Oh and just in case you're not sure,,,,, no making in game money in game and buying stuff in the market place does not pay for the op cost of the game...
I like BDO and will continue too play and hey,,,, may be this will get rid of the asses the like to hack and PK peeps just because they can
1. No, because any game that has this shit in it should shut down.
All other points are useless with above comment, IMO.
I'd agree with that.
But honestly, let's not. Let's just agree to disagree here.
Summed up perfectly. Many fail to see this though.
Advancement just speeds up the process to compete.
In the context of an MMO, what is the advantage? It's the buying of stats/power, for real money, while competing in various activities (pvp or raiding).
If others cannot obtain those stats without using real money, then they must pay in order to stay competitive. If those stats can be obtained without using real money, then it's not paying to compete (or winning if you prefer).
Don't worry Holden... You will meet someone new one day. Time heals all wounds
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I think what will happen is that some people will leave, some people will still play yet complain and some people will actually use the system.
Is Archeage still around? Well, it has been called a pay to win game but it's still around with people.
Additionally, both Aion and Tera have this system and they are still around as well.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
From a QandA before the release:
Q: ''Will you be a p2win game''?
A: ''No! We arent and wont be a pay to win game''
Couple that with numerous other statements about not going p2w or the monetization model is the way it is to avoid p2w and I think it's perfectly justified.
Not to mention there are reports of many chargebacks being successful. If you chargeback a company that's getting bombarded by chargebacks, obviously your credit card company is going to believe something is up (and something really is up).
If I were Kakao, I wouldn't be as worried about chargebacks as I would be a lawsuit, though.
Sure, though, it's very hard for an MMO to actually die. After tomorrow, though, BDO will be a hobbling husk of what could have been, devoid of meaning or any passionate players.
Sounds great, right?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo