This happens to be one of my pet peeves. Everyone tends to blame the teenagers for the NGE because that is the player base that SOE/LA were after.
I started playing SWG when I was 15. After playing for about a year and a half, I was a server-class armorsmith and a politician with a thriving player city. I also had numerous RL friends who played the game as well. My brother became a master power jedi after months of hologrinding, and the FS village. The point is WE LOVED THE IMMERSIVE SANDBOX GAME, NOT THIS NGE SHIT. And we were good at it too.
What I am trying to say is to not blame your problems on the teenagers. Thats like saying, the NGE is the eskimos fault. The ekimos will turn around and say "What the hell are you talking about? We didn't want it either?
Plus, if the NGE is catered so much to the younger demographic, why aren't we playing it? Well, that would be because we are not stupid. We know this game sucks, and we're out here playing WoW or Battlefront 2 until something better comes along.
Another thing: The little stereotype about the kiddies using mommy and daddy's credit card to play is not necessarily the truth. I used my parents credit card for my first year of play, true. And then I paid them back at the end of the year. My friends had to do the same thing. Why? Because we are responsible. The game costs a ton of money, so we picked up the tab. After I got my first credit card (which I pay the bills for, not my parents), I paid with that from then on. Once again, the same thing was true of many I played with of my age group. Mind you, this is when we were 14 and 15, the exact age that is flung around here as the problem.
Well that turned into more of a rant then I wanted. The main point is, do not shift blame on us teenagers. We get enough of that shit every day, and I'd rather not be trying to shovel my way out of it here.
Guess what everyone, they DO NOT want your money... Why would they? I mean, you "sophisticated" gamers demand the most, post the most and are the most intensely involved with any game you play (hell, I am the same)... SOE and LA no longer want our money, don't worry though, VSoH is almost release ready...
They want my 11 year old step-sons money and kids that are waaaaaaay below your demographic... Its time for you to put down your plastic light saber, ditch the Lando Halloween costume you wear every year and face the cold reality that diehard SW fans in their 20's and 30's are no longer being catered to by LA... A new generation of SW fans is upon us, and they are more numerous than you and are going to pay more money than you...
I am as vicious of enough of a business person to probably do the same things SOE and LA are doing with SWG right now...
In short, it's time to hang up the Jedi robe people... Move along...
Originally posted by Dis_Ordur Guess what everyone, they DO NOT want your money... Why would they? I mean, you "sophisticated" gamers demand the most, post the most and are the most intensely involved with any game you play (hell, I am the same)... SOE and LA no longer want our money, don't worry though, VSoH is almost release ready... They want my 11 year old step-sons money and kids that are waaaaaaay below your demographic... Its time for you to put down your plastic light saber, ditch the Lando Halloween costume you wear every year and face the cold reality that diehard SW fans in their 20's and 30's are no longer being catered to by LA... A new generation of SW fans is upon us, and they are more numerous than you and are going to pay more money than you... I am as vicious of enough of a business person to probably do the same things SOE and LA are doing with SWG right now... In short, it's time to hang up the Jedi robe people... Move along...
Even though I mostly think you are correct, I don't agree with this: "A new generation of SW fans is upon us, and they are more numerous than you and are going to pay more money than you"
I don't think there is such a thing as a "new generation of SW fans". At least not when it comes to the new movies. The original Star Wars Trilogy excited our imaginations, gave us a whole new world to live in, and wowed us with what was possible to accomplish in a movie. The new trilogy is just, to put it mildly, another good action movie. You don't see the kind of fanfare that the original movies generated, you don't see people rushing to stores. Hell! You think that these movies have the power to sell empty boxes with the promise of a toy soon to come? (The Early Bird certificate package) But the original SW did! There is no such New Generation of Star Wars Fans!
One could argue that a younger generation is discovering the original Star Wars. And although it might, they would be the minority. Let's face it, back then, the originals were groundbreaking when it comes to story and special effects. But not by today's standards.
As for them having more money??? I sincerely doubt it!
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
First off, thanks for all of the responses. It's nice to know there are some kindred spirits out there.
Yes, there has been a largely 'immature' outcry on the forums by a number of those who feel the same way that many of us do. I don't blame $OE for not wanting to address some of the obviously hostile and irrational responses...however...to my mind THESE would be the 'vocal minority' in the WAY they have stated in a less 'sophisticated' and more empassioned fashion what many of the silent majority chose to voice by simply filling out our exit questionaires and stopping the monthly payments. I don't necessarily agree with the means some have chosen to protest...but I do not blame them for a very emotional response. There is something very personal about having something one considers 'mine' taken away by force...which is really what happened to us at its most fundamental level.
To my way of thinking the huge response to the recent rumor mill shows how many of us there are...I'm not buying the 'it's not enough of a market' arguement. ESPECIALLY when Smed has the audacity to talk about 'looking at the long term'. The target audience they have dropped us to go after obviously has the attention span of a gnat. I still remember the pulse pounding tension of my first battle with a stormtrooper near the Rebel Theme park...that fight probably took me almost an hour of hit and run...now from what I hear even a newly rolled character can 'click click click' a stormtrooper to death in a few seconds. Obviously the crowd that likes this model better doesn't have the same long term attention span that those of us who liked the old way do...so what possible 'logic' makes $OE think that even if they get 'more' of these customers they will be able to keep them beyond five minutes? Aren't the vast majority going to just 'bounce' to the next shiney object that comes along? Those of us who loved the 'sandbox' and truly got involved in the interaction and community saw it as OUR world...and most would have stayed for years even if 'bigger better' MMO's came along. The 'hardcore' gamers that Smed has specifically discounted, are the ones that would have kept paying the bills years from now, not the 'give me kool lewt' crowd that goes for the 'kill, loot, kill' format the game has moved to.
Originally posted by duggo Originally posted by haxxjoo Originally posted by duggo LOL! Yeah, the way the SWG forums melted down into childish, temper-tantrum spamfest for well over a month after the change to NGE really was the mark of a "sophisticated playerbase." The fact that there's still people who can't let go and you constantly see posts of "NGE SUX!!11 PRE-CU FTW!!!!1 ROLLBACK!111" also reeks of mature, serious gamers. I'm not trying to flame here, but if I were a developer, the SWG crowd would be the last group of people I'd be after. Honestly, they are a niche-market, high maintanence crowd. Pre-cu had the highest fan rating of any mmo. This site included. The number 1 complaint was bugs and content pre-cu. Your statements are slanted towards only the playerbases action regarding the cu and nge both of which went forward with polls indicating playerbase satisfaction at or below 20% on respondants. What is left commenting is not an accurate accounting of the star wars mmo fanbase. What one should concur is that swg had the loyalist most devoted fan base of any mmo until soe and la took the version they paid for trashed it and didn't listen to the customers about the product they where hacking up. Although I am sure soe sees it your way. Also on a side note. The community had a group of individuals to filter ideas and problems to the devs called correspondents who responded to the players. This program never was fully implimented and the devs choose not to listen to these players feedback on changes. That is why the cu and nge is flooded with hate mail. Some asks for an orange and you hand them a banana and insist they really wanted a banana and see the reaction they give you. That is the cu and nge. I completely agree with what you're saying. All I'm saying is to answer the question, "No One Want's Our Money?" one need only at how the playerbase reacted to the the two most publicized changes to the game to see why that might be. I highly doubt any developer is going to look at the mess after CU, and especially after NGE, and think that those are the people they want to put years of hardwork into a project to attract. It's like when you read a newstory about a dog that attacks its family's small child. You don't think about the years upon years that the dog had been a good, loyal pet protecting the family. You just think, "I'm glad that wasn't my dog!" -d
What?!?!?!?!
In order for your analogy to work, the small child would have to be daily shooting the dog with a beebee gun and never feed it and just beat it for no reason. Then, when that pet attacks, people would say "Wow, that kid got what he deserved, its a wonder that dog didnt attack years ago".
I think the developers who put "years of hard work into a project" wouldnt scrap it in favor of a crap flavored game like the nge. I think that a fan base that is older and more mature can appreciate a game that has clearly been well thought out and implemented and will be a hell of alot loyal then any kid with ADD.
I think the fanbase is the last part any smart developer (or person for that matter) would blame for the cunge debacle.
But then again, if you run a company like soe does, and like to lie and mislead your customers, then you definatley want those ADD kids playing, because you can do whatever the hell you want to with it and they probably wouldnt notice, much less care.
1. Resist the urge to base your MMO on a beloved story or myth.
Regardless of how well polished an mmo is, there will always be those rabid fans of the original story or myth loudly pointing out inconsistencies. We saw this when Jedi were introduced, which led to the accelerated decline of the SWG. Developers constantly tried to manage game balance issues and appeasing those that felt Jedi were extinct during that time line.
This is why, although I'm a huge fan of Tolkien, I won't bother with LOTR: Online.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Even though I mostly think you are correct, I don't agree with this: "A new generation of SW fans is upon us, and they are more numerous than you and are going to pay more money than you"
I don't think there is such a thing as a "new generation of SW fans". At least not when it comes to the new movies. The original Star Wars Trilogy excited our imaginations, gave us a whole new world to live in, and wowed us with what was possible to accomplish in a movie. The new trilogy is just, to put it mildly, another good action movie. You don't see the kind of fanfare that the original movies generated, you don't see people rushing to stores. Hell! You think that these movies have the power to sell empty boxes with the promise of a toy soon to come? (The Early Bird certificate package) But the original SW did! There is no such New Generation of Star Wars Fans!
One could argue that a younger generation is discovering the original Star Wars. And although it might, they would be the minority. Let's face it, back then, the originals were groundbreaking when it comes to story and special effects. But not by today's standards.
As for them having more money??? I sincerely doubt it!
Nice post Duncan, but you are wrong... From a macro perspective, you do realize that our economy has grown by trillions of dollars from the original SW era right? Big deal if there aren't "Empty Box Pre-Orders", kids have so many more ways to buy SW merch... I think you are romanticizing your era a tad too much... The hysteria may have seemed to be more prevalent during our times, but you need to get off your rocking chair for a second and realize that SW is a much larger phenomenon than it was back in our day...
The new trilogy had worldwide releases raking in billions of dollars, how much did the originals make? That's enough to quash your argument right there... How many video games for SW existed back in the 70's? Kids can now buy whatever they want for SW now, the plastic figurines used to be the only thing you could get relating to the movies, and THAT is why they sold like wildfire...
As much as I like reading what you post Duncan, you need to realize that the world has changed alot since our SW era... There is a next generation of SW fans... This is the generation that has SW desktop themes, SW cartoon network DVD's, SW DVD's for all the movies, over a dozen SW game titles to select from, endless SW toys and yes, the coveted SW underwear...
If it makes you feel better that the old SW era was still better, than fine, I can't prove that one way or the other... But there IS a next-gen SW fanbase and THEY WILL out spend our generation by at least 100 fold, hell, that may even be conservative too...
Originally posted by Dis_Ordur Nice post Duncan, but you are wrong... From a macro perspective, you do realize that our economy has grown by trillions of dollars from the original SW era right? Big deal if there aren't "Empty Box Pre-Orders", kids have so many more ways to buy SW merch... I think you are romanticizing your era a tad too much... The hysteria may have seemed to be more prevalent during our times, but you need to get off your rocking chair for a second and realize that SW is a much larger phenomenon than it was back in our day...
The new trilogy had worldwide releases raking in billions of dollars, how much did the originals make? That's enough to quash your argument right there... How many video games for SW existed back in the 70's? Kids can now buy whatever they want for SW now, the plastic figurines used to be the only thing you could get relating to the movies, and THAT is why they sold like wildfire...
I disagree with the bolded statement. Just a few points: 1. I'd imagine that the distribution of the prequels went to a larger number of theatres. 2. The cost of tickets today is greater (even adjusted for inflation). 3. The people going to those movies were primarily fans who saw the originals.
Most of the younger crowd, born in the late 80 or 90s, which I encounter, really didn't like the Ep. 1 - 3.
(Warning: nerd alert) The overwhelming majority of people belonging to SW Fan Clubs, like the 501st are adults in age 30+. Of course, this is just my direct observation.
The people that I trade collectables with are rarely younger then 30. I'd contend that fan base may be growing, however the greater portion of the population were fans from the original trilogy.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Maybe the original sw trilogies didnt make as much money or have world wide openings (which probably isnt true anyways), but they had a much more mystical quality about them. No movie had ever been made like that before. Now, the new trilogies are just more pretty effects in a sea of sci-fi movies. They werent even that great imo You dont see little kids wanting to be luke or han anymore. They want to be 50cent. To kids now, the sw trilogies are just another spectacle.
Originally posted by IcoGames Originally posted by Dis_Ordur Nice post Duncan, but you are wrong... From a macro perspective, you do realize that our economy has grown by trillions of dollars from the original SW era right? Big deal if there aren't "Empty Box Pre-Orders", kids have so many more ways to buy SW merch... I think you are romanticizing your era a tad too much... The hysteria may have seemed to be more prevalent during our times, but you need to get off your rocking chair for a second and realize that SW is a much larger phenomenon than it was back in our day...The new trilogy had worldwide releases raking in billions of dollars, how much did the originals make? That's enough to quash your argument right there... How many video games for SW existed back in the 70's? Kids can now buy whatever they want for SW now, the plastic figurines used to be the only thing you could get relating to the movies, and THAT is why they sold like wildfire...
I disagree with the bolded statement. Just a few points: 1. I'd imagine that the distribution of the prequels went to a larger number of theatres. 2. The cost of tickets today is greater (even adjusted for inflation). 3. The people going to those movies were primarily fans who saw the originals.
Most of the younger crowd, born in the late 80 or 90s, which I encounter, really didn't like the Ep. 1 - 3.
(Warning: nerd alert) The overwhelming majority of people belonging to SW Fan Clubs, like the 501st are adults in age 30+. Of course, this is just my direct observation.
The people that I trade collectables with are rarely younger then 30. I'd contend that fan base may be growing, however the greater portion of the population were fans from the original trilogy.
Just going to back up IonGames about the money made from the movies. The first Star Wars movie (adjusted for inflation and US income only) ranks #2 all time. Only Gone With the Wind has made more money than any other movie.
#2 Star Wars: ANH $1,139,965,400 Theaters: 1750 #12 Star Wars: ESB $628,356,100 Theaters: 1278 #14 Star Wars: RotJ $601,980,200 Theaters: 1764 $19 Star Wars: TPM $542,885,200 Theaters: 3126 #81 Star wars: AotC $342,198,200 Theaters: 3161 $55 Star wars: RotS $380,270,600 Theaters: 3663
World wide numbers don't include inflation and the value of the $ was more valuable in 1977 (ANH) than 2005 (RotS). RotS had $848,797,674 world wide and ANH in 1977 dollars had $775,398,007.
As a mildly amusing and slightly related tangent (to the New Star Wars/Old Star Wars debate at hand)...my mother in law got my 2 year old son some of the 'clicks' Star Wars miniatures for Christmas. It doesn't matter how many times we tell him the proper name for General Grievous, he still insists on calling him 'Darth Vader.'
To me, it just goes to show how much the original trilogy surpases the new ones in terms of iconic recognition. Even a two year old can tell that Greivous was just a poor attempt to imitate Vader.
Originally posted by duncan_922 Even though I mostly think you are correct, I don't agree with this: "A new generation of SW fans is upon us, and they are more numerous than you and are going to pay more money than you" I don't think there is such a thing as a "new generation of SW fans". At least not when it comes to the new movies. The original Star Wars Trilogy excited our imaginations, gave us a whole new world to live in, and wowed us with what was possible to accomplish in a movie. The new trilogy is just, to put it mildly, another good action movie. You don't see the kind of fanfare that the original movies generated, you don't see people rushing to stores. Hell! You think that these movies have the power to sell empty boxes with the promise of a toy soon to come? (The Early Bird certificate package) But the original SW did! There is no such New Generation of Star Wars Fans! One could argue that a younger generation is discovering the original Star Wars. And although it might, they would be the minority. Let's face it, back then, the originals were groundbreaking when it comes to story and special effects. But not by today's standards. As for them having more money??? I sincerely doubt it!
Nice post Duncan, but you are wrong... From a macro perspective, you do realize that our economy has grown by trillions of dollars from the original SW era right? Big deal if there aren't "Empty Box Pre-Orders", kids have so many more ways to buy SW merch... I think you are romanticizing your era a tad too much... The hysteria may have seemed to be more prevalent during our times, but you need to get off your rocking chair for a second and realize that SW is a much larger phenomenon than it was back in our day...
The new trilogy had worldwide releases raking in billions of dollars, how much did the originals make? That's enough to quash your argument right there... How many video games for SW existed back in the 70's? Kids can now buy whatever they want for SW now, the plastic figurines used to be the only thing you could get relating to the movies, and THAT is why they sold like wildfire...
As much as I like reading what you post Duncan, you need to realize that the world has changed alot since our SW era... There is a next generation of SW fans... This is the generation that has SW desktop themes, SW cartoon network DVD's, SW DVD's for all the movies, over a dozen SW game titles to select from, endless SW toys and yes, the coveted SW underwear...
If it makes you feel better that the old SW era was still better, than fine, I can't prove that one way or the other... But there IS a next-gen SW fanbase and THEY WILL out spend our generation by at least 100 fold, hell, that may even be conservative too...
You make good arguments, but please try to drop the bad boy image for a little while when we are actually having a good discussion. It's not necesary here.
Of coursethe economy has grown by trillions of dollars since since the original SW era. We'd be in trouble if it hadn't. But you seem to be a little more "in touch" with the world of retail than I am, so you tell me... Yes, the kids have plenty more ways to buy SW stuff... But are they? I don't think so, there isn't the same "buzz" in the air, but I'm not into retail, so I might be wrong.
The new trilogies had releases worth millions of dollars, that's true. But I think that like me, most people saw it to give closure. I am a big Star Wars fan, I saw the new trilogy and although I was dissapointed from the first movie, I still went to see the other too. Going as far as making a huge ass line to see the last one. Why? I knew that I was more than likely going to be dissapointed, I knew that George Lucas had strayed away from his dream and turned into a hack. Then why did I go see it? I think it was because, first I had hope and I wanted to give it closure. I'm quite sure I'm not alone on this. I know people that saw the original movies multiple times, when they first came out and then a few years ago when they were re-released for the 20th anniversary. How many people saw this new trilogy multiple times? Don't think quite as many as back then.
The new trilogy made millions of dollars yes, but your question of how much did the originals make is irrelevant. According to www.the-numbers.com Star Wars made:
Date Movie 1st Weekend US Gross WorldWide Gross Budget
As you can see, the gap between the numbers isn't that great, and when you consider the fact, that things were A LOT CHEAPER back when the original movies were released, I think the original trilogy beats the new one hands down!
Perhaps you are right and there IS a new generation of Star Wars fan. Only time will tell if this new generation will be as loyal the previous one.
Edit: Sorry about the crappiness of the table, it doesn't look like that when I edit it.
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Ironically, I too purchased DDO last week, and it is likewise my disappointment with that title that has largely motivated this post. Turbine will probably not get so much as a months subscription out of me due primarily to the complet lack of depth. Based on the descriptions, The Chronicle seems to show a great deal of promise- but MMOCenter appears to have bitten off more than they can chew with that project (their web site Domain expired today...wow not exactly confidence inspiring) and I have my doubts that they will be able to deliver on what they have promised. So that leaves me once more wondering, why is this obviously very large market being ignored?
Originally posted by Dis_Ordur Nice post Duncan, but you are wrong... From a macro perspective, you do realize that our economy has grown by trillions of dollars from the original SW era right? Big deal if there aren't "Empty Box Pre-Orders", kids have so many more ways to buy SW merch... I think you are romanticizing your era a tad too much... The hysteria may have seemed to be more prevalent during our times, but you need to get off your rocking chair for a second and realize that SW is a much larger phenomenon than it was back in our day... The new trilogy had worldwide releases raking in billions of dollars, how much did the originals make? That's enough to quash your argument right there... How many video games for SW existed back in the 70's? Kids can now buy whatever they want for SW now, the plastic figurines used to be the only thing you could get relating to the movies, and THAT is why they sold like wildfire... As much as I like reading what you post Duncan, you need to realize that the world has changed alot since our SW era... There is a next generation of SW fans... This is the generation that has SW desktop themes, SW cartoon network DVD's, SW DVD's for all the movies, over a dozen SW game titles to select from, endless SW toys and yes, the coveted SW underwear... If it makes you feel better that the old SW era was still better, than fine, I can't prove that one way or the other... But there IS a next-gen SW fanbase and THEY WILL out spend our generation by at least 100 fold, hell, that may even be conservative too...
Well, about the time of AotC, Wizard Mag did an article with the NY Times (or with someone at the Times, I don't remember exactly) about SW, primarily looking at research into the demographics of it's fans, who buys it's merchandise & why the excitement of AotC was so low.
They used a research company that pulled info from various sources, including Nielsen I believe.
They found out a couple of interesting things:
The majority of SW Fans were 28-48 (this was about 4 years ago I think).
A majority of SW merchandise was purchased by the same age range.
Most of that merchandise (I think like 75% of it) was purchased for the purchaser, not children.
They then proceeded to discuss why SW wasn't catching on nearly as well with younger children as it did in the 70's, and why it was still so popular with my generation. Now I don't remember most of it, only a few things, but I'll look for it online. If I remember correctly, they basically said that the original SW generation made up about 80% of the total SW fanbase. Considering that there are more children now than then, that's quite a dramatic statement.
I was at the premiers for every SW movie from ESB on, and for the PM & AotC almost the ENTIRE audience was my age or older. I think I only saw 3 kids at both of them. That alone says a ton, considering that the last midnight premier of the last Harry Potter movie was packed with kids.
A majority of SW fans and gamers are growing older, and looking for more in a game than twitching. I own well over 50k of SW collectibles and merchandise (I have all of the original fig's in packaging, as well as DV & a Yoda Manquettes, I just need BF now, hehe... those are over 75% of the total value), and I haven't even considered buying another SW item since about December due to the sour taste the NGE has left in my mouth. It's a shame LA can't see it, they've ticked of 100's of Thousands of SW / SWG fans...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
Originally posted by Niksen I totally agree Ive been buying this game and that game, looking for something after SWG died. Ive yet to find anything that sparks my interest. I just bought DDO...ppfff not good. It just makes me miss SWG even more. Why arent anyone making a nice substitute, as you say there seems to be a clear indication that loads of ppl miss something, not on the marked. brgds Nicolai
Vanguard SoH
I'm not a Fantasy fan, but I (and my clan) will be playing this game. 5 years of Dev, a year of Alpha, a year of Beta, a deep crafting system, a deep harvesting system, diversity, persistent world, entertaining to a degree, player cities, mounts, ships, player strongholds, player housing & a world with FAR more depth than SWG. Heck, read the FAQ. It's a book, and it doesn't even begin to touch all of the game. And to top it all off, read some Dev posts. They listen to their community, and have open dialog with them.
Read the Forums, watch the movies and check out the Pics... it's the next level of gaming, and a clear successor to SWG.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
While I definitely think there is a desire to somehow capture the gaming dollars of the "new SW fans" I also think there aren't as many of them as people seem to think. I have a 10 year old son and he is a pretty big SW fan who says his favorite of the bunch is Ep 2 unfortunately, but he is mainly a SW fan because I am. His friends aren't really any more excited about Star Wars than they are about Halo, Pokemon or Naruto to be honest. And if I was kid nowadays I'm not sure how excited I would be about Star Wars either. There are an overabundance of great titles for kids unlike when I was a kid and in this high tech world Star Wars kinda seems dated in some respects.
I agree that us old time SW fans can be high maintenance and difficult at times, but most of us can accept some deficiencies or deviations if the core of the thing is good. Most of us played with those dumb little action figures until the paint rubbed off and those definitely weren't perfect. And it isn't like there have been this endless stream of GREAT Star Wars games that SWG just couldn't live up to. In fact, most of them were absolutely terrible, but we bought a lot of them anyway because it was Star Wars. Prior to SWG about the only ones of note were X-Wing, Tie Fighter and a few Nintendo titles like Super Star Wars.
What I am getting at is that I don't think teenagers are the best market to go for like many of the big companies seem to think. Teens have massive amounts of things tearing at their entertainment dollar from IPods to Xbox 360 and they are very fickle about what they want (not to mention extremely short attention spans). Those of us in the 25 and up crowd, however, have lots of money to spend, a high desire for certain products and a tendency to spend on impulse and emotion on certain things.
If anyone needs convincing all they have to do is look at the initial rush of people trying to play SWG. A rush so extreme that the servers couldn't remain stable and nobody could log on for several days. There were probably some teens in that group, but I would bet anything that the vast majority of those maniacal people who initially bought the game were from the 25 and up demographic.
So I really think there is money to be made if somebody caters to the 25 and up crowd, but I don't think anyone really knows how very well nor do they comprehend how much money potentially can be made.
Originally posted by Mordah To be honest I think the numbers of us who want to play a sophisticated game just aren't enough to sustain a title all by ourselves. I know I want a game that is open ended, highly sophisticated and very complex and a lot of others do too, but for every one of us there are a hundred kids with their parents credit card that just want instant gratification. I think there is still just this perception that the average gamer is a 14 year old boy and for that reason the games cater to that demographic.
Hi,
Although I apperciate your opinon I happen to disagree with it. I think there were enough Star Wars fans, scifi fans, and people just looking for a decent MMORPG that we could support one and did for almost 2 years. I think what hurt SWG in the beginning [aside from some expectations by SOE and a couple of issue with combat] was the sever lack of content and no true GCW [galactic civil war]. I personally believe if they had those 2 major item in high gear we would all either be continue playing the SWG we like or SOE would have a lot more players [customers] pissed off...lol
"The new trilogy had worldwide releases raking in billions of dollars, how much did the originals make? That's enough to quash your argument right there... How many video games for SW existed back in the 70's? Kids can now buy whatever they want for SW now, the plastic figurines used to be the only thing you could get relating to the movies, and THAT is why they sold like wildfire..."
You make statements in your post beyond the part I quote which in some ways are true.. but are slightly skewed to make a point you want to make.
I saw Episode 4 in the 1970's.. I wasn't there the day it released. My sister had seen the film 10 times before I managed to see it. Relatively I was 8 years old then and I am now 36.
My sister is 4.5 years older than me and has 3 children. The youngest child is 16... and the oldest 21 and my sister (she would kill me) is 40. The kids would be fans of star wars... not so much that my sister way but because I was. Just like most of what they learned about computers was from me their uncle.
Other people who saw the movies have kids who no doubt are fans because their parents introduced them to the movies. So its not exactly a new breed of fans magicly manifested themselves on this planet but rather who introduced to a Story by their parents aka the first fans.
How much money did the original films make?
You do realize Star Wars (as it was called that then rather than EP4 at the time) was the biggest money making film until it was replaced by ET.
You do realize and this was a jeopardy question... that at one time Harrison Ford was in 8 out of the top 10 grossing films (that's the list of the 10 making the most ever at that time).
3 were Star Wars movies.. 3 were indiana Jones movies and I forget the other 2.
So I guess the question is...
Were EP 1, 2 or 3 ever in the top 10 grossing films?
You do realize what some of those "plastic figurines" sell for on ebay today? right...
How many 16 year olds do you see cruising with 3000 bucks to spend on old star wars things. Forget about $15 a month for a game.
Here is one example I found searching just now... Its the headset that luke/han wore in the falcons turrets in EP4 and supposedly comes from the star wars archives or whatever (I'm not a collector).
"Comes directly from the Gary Kurtz/Jason Joiner Archive of original Star Wars artifacts"
Bid starts at $5000
Under that is a collection of 100 figures for $2500 buy now...
The more accurate list is to go look at is auctions that have ended and see what actually sold for. If they had feedback left to actually prove it made a sale. I've seen auctions for A Wings time to time that claim it was one of the rarer toys and those were selling for 2000 to 3000 dollars.
What age demographic do you really think is buying that stuff?
I just have a problem with people that like to think its some new fan base that magicly appeared... a different economy for the age group etc etc
EP 1 - 3 had the special effects and things for their time did they dominate the box office? The top 10 grossing films ever?
Its a point because EP 4 to 6 did with what they could use at the time to make them. So it relates to your question of how much they made. Relative to market terms of success at the relevant times.
You also have to consider that the only reason Lucas got the rights he did was.. The studio was about to go bankrupt and the fact Star Wars was a success saved it. That's part of history you can look up and is mentioned in the little films about Star Wars like the dreams documentary that floats around on cable.
So I'd say its safe to say there is a large enough older crowd with plenty of money...
Eve seems to be doing relatively well. Also, it'll be interesting to watch how Tabula Rosa will fair. The problem with 'sandbox' type games is that they're difficult to maintain imo.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I'm enjoying the discussion so far and particularly appreciate the reasonable debate and lack of flame so far, thanks everyone.
Under the same line of conversation of the most recent posts, I find it interesting that Lucas himself, essentially 'sold out' this older, established crowd for a younger audience with his new movies. I read an interview with him around the time of TPM's release where he specifically indicated that he had younger (teen/pre teen at the time) kids and that he wanted to tailor the new movies to them. He specifically said at the time he didn't really care what the older audience wanted...he already has money and it was his story and he was going to make the prequels the way he wanted them. Thus the creation of everyone's favoite character, Jar Jar Binks.
One is prompted to wonder how much of this attitude has come into play in LA's role of governing our lamented game.
<edited for minor grammatical issues and typos...I'm picky that way>
Even though I mostly think you are correct, I don't agree with this: "A new generation of SW fans is upon us, and they are more numerous than you and are going to pay more money than you"
I don't think there is such a thing as a "new generation of SW fans". At least not when it comes to the new movies. The original Star Wars Trilogy excited our imaginations, gave us a whole new world to live in, and wowed us with what was possible to accomplish in a movie. The new trilogy is just, to put it mildly, another good action movie. You don't see the kind of fanfare that the original movies generated, you don't see people rushing to stores. Hell! You think that these movies have the power to sell empty boxes with the promise of a toy soon to come? (The Early Bird certificate package) But the original SW did! There is no such New Generation of Star Wars Fans!
One could argue that a younger generation is discovering the original Star Wars. And although it might, they would be the minority. Let's face it, back then, the originals were groundbreaking when it comes to story and special effects. But not by today's standards.
As for them having more money??? I sincerely doubt it!
Nice post Duncan, but you are wrong... From a macro perspective, you do realize that our economy has grown by trillions of dollars from the original SW era right? Big deal if there aren't "Empty Box Pre-Orders", kids have so many more ways to buy SW merch... I think you are romanticizing your era a tad too much... The hysteria may have seemed to be more prevalent during our times, but you need to get off your rocking chair for a second and realize that SW is a much larger phenomenon than it was back in our day...
The new trilogy had worldwide releases raking in billions of dollars, how much did the originals make? That's enough to quash your argument right there... How many video games for SW existed back in the 70's? Kids can now buy whatever they want for SW now, the plastic figurines used to be the only thing you could get relating to the movies, and THAT is why they sold like wildfire...
As much as I like reading what you post Duncan, you need to realize that the world has changed alot since our SW era... There is a next generation of SW fans... This is the generation that has SW desktop themes, SW cartoon network DVD's, SW DVD's for all the movies, over a dozen SW game titles to select from, endless SW toys and yes, the coveted SW underwear...
If it makes you feel better that the old SW era was still better, than fine, I can't prove that one way or the other... But there IS a next-gen SW fanbase and THEY WILL out spend our generation by at least 100 fold, hell, that may even be conservative too...
You make good arguments, but please try to drop the bad boy image for a little while when we are actually having a good discussion. It's not necesary here.
Ouch! that bruised my ego a tad... I wasn't going for the "Bad Boy" image, I was more after the "Pompous Intellect" vibe...
To the poster about the NY Times article you mentioned... Out of curiousity, what would you think the average age is for WoW?
Originally posted by Mordah To be honest I think the numbers of us who want to play a sophisticated game just aren't enough to sustain a title all by ourselves. I know I want a game that is open ended, highly sophisticated and very complex and a lot of others do too, but for every one of us there are a hundred kids with their parents credit card that just want instant gratification. I think there is still just this perception that the average gamer is a 14 year old boy and for that reason the games cater to that demographic.
Hi,
Although I apperciate your opinon I happen to disagree with it. I think there were enough Star Wars fans, scifi fans, and people just looking for a decent MMORPG that we could support one and did for almost 2 years. I think what hurt SWG in the beginning [aside from some expectations by SOE and a couple of issue with combat] was the sever lack of content and no true GCW [galactic civil war]. I personally believe if they had those 2 major item in high gear we would all either be continue playing the SWG we like or SOE would have a lot more players [customers] pissed off...lol
IMO,
Tauceit
I agree there are a lot of us and probably enough to "support" an MMO all by ourselves, but companies aren't looking to be "supported" like they are PBS or something. They are all looking to make as much money as they can and the way to do that is to tap into the biggest payout. What I should have said I guess was that a lot of MMO's seem to be chasing what they perceive to be the holy grail of players within the teenage demographic and ignoring any other one because they think that is where the most money is to be found.
I just think there is some sort of industry perception that the teeming masses of teen players is where the really big bucks are and while I think they do statistically outnumber us as a group I also think if a really comprehensive study was done MMO companies might discover that the adult demographic is the player they ultimately make the most money from.
Most teenagers I know (along with a few adults) are more interested in jumping right into a maxed out character so they can start making headshots on other players. Most adult players are more likely to have multiple accounts and keep them active for very long periods of time. I hate to paint groups with broad brushes here, but if an MMO by its very nature is supposed to develop slowly and take time to explore then it just doesn't make sense for them to keep courting a teenage oriented group, but in many cases that seems to be what it happening.
Personally I think the overwhelming success of WoW has so completely captured the greedy attention of MMO companies that they are going to do whatever they can to cater to the average WoW player. While I haven't seen any studies I would bet anything that the average WoW player is a male under 20 years old and that is why companies are changing their games to woo that crowd.
Comments
Ok.
This happens to be one of my pet peeves. Everyone tends to blame the teenagers for the NGE because that is the player base that SOE/LA were after.
I started playing SWG when I was 15. After playing for about a year and a half, I was a server-class armorsmith and a politician with a thriving player city. I also had numerous RL friends who played the game as well. My brother became a master power jedi after months of hologrinding, and the FS village. The point is WE LOVED THE IMMERSIVE SANDBOX GAME, NOT THIS NGE SHIT. And we were good at it too.
What I am trying to say is to not blame your problems on the teenagers. Thats like saying, the NGE is the eskimos fault. The ekimos will turn around and say "What the hell are you talking about? We didn't want it either?
Plus, if the NGE is catered so much to the younger demographic, why aren't we playing it? Well, that would be because we are not stupid. We know this game sucks, and we're out here playing WoW or Battlefront 2 until something better comes along.
Another thing: The little stereotype about the kiddies using mommy and daddy's credit card to play is not necessarily the truth. I used my parents credit card for my first year of play, true. And then I paid them back at the end of the year. My friends had to do the same thing. Why? Because we are responsible. The game costs a ton of money, so we picked up the tab. After I got my first credit card (which I pay the bills for, not my parents), I paid with that from then on. Once again, the same thing was true of many I played with of my age group. Mind you, this is when we were 14 and 15, the exact age that is flung around here as the problem.
Well that turned into more of a rant then I wanted. The main point is, do not shift blame on us teenagers. We get enough of that shit every day, and I'd rather not be trying to shovel my way out of it here.
NGE Refugee.
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Guess what everyone, they DO NOT want your money... Why would they? I mean, you "sophisticated" gamers demand the most, post the most and are the most intensely involved with any game you play (hell, I am the same)... SOE and LA no longer want our money, don't worry though, VSoH is almost release ready...
They want my 11 year old step-sons money and kids that are waaaaaaay below your demographic... Its time for you to put down your plastic light saber, ditch the Lando Halloween costume you wear every year and face the cold reality that diehard SW fans in their 20's and 30's are no longer being catered to by LA... A new generation of SW fans is upon us, and they are more numerous than you and are going to pay more money than you...
I am as vicious of enough of a business person to probably do the same things SOE and LA are doing with SWG right now...
In short, it's time to hang up the Jedi robe people... Move along...
Even though I mostly think you are correct, I don't agree with this: "A new generation of SW fans is upon us, and they are more numerous than you and are going to pay more money than you"
I don't think there is such a thing as a "new generation of SW fans". At least not when it comes to the new movies. The original Star Wars Trilogy excited our imaginations, gave us a whole new world to live in, and wowed us with what was possible to accomplish in a movie. The new trilogy is just, to put it mildly, another good action movie. You don't see the kind of fanfare that the original movies generated, you don't see people rushing to stores. Hell! You think that these movies have the power to sell empty boxes with the promise of a toy soon to come? (The Early Bird certificate package) But the original SW did! There is no such New Generation of Star Wars Fans!
One could argue that a younger generation is discovering the original Star Wars. And although it might, they would be the minority. Let's face it, back then, the originals were groundbreaking when it comes to story and special effects. But not by today's standards.
As for them having more money??? I sincerely doubt it!
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
First off, thanks for all of the responses. It's nice to know there are some kindred spirits out there.
Yes, there has been a largely 'immature' outcry on the forums by a number of those who feel the same way that many of us do. I don't blame $OE for not wanting to address some of the obviously hostile and irrational responses...however...to my mind THESE would be the 'vocal minority' in the WAY they have stated in a less 'sophisticated' and more empassioned fashion what many of the silent majority chose to voice by simply filling out our exit questionaires and stopping the monthly payments. I don't necessarily agree with the means some have chosen to protest...but I do not blame them for a very emotional response. There is something very personal about having something one considers 'mine' taken away by force...which is really what happened to us at its most fundamental level.
To my way of thinking the huge response to the recent rumor mill shows how many of us there are...I'm not buying the 'it's not enough of a market' arguement. ESPECIALLY when Smed has the audacity to talk about 'looking at the long term'. The target audience they have dropped us to go after obviously has the attention span of a gnat. I still remember the pulse pounding tension of my first battle with a stormtrooper near the Rebel Theme park...that fight probably took me almost an hour of hit and run...now from what I hear even a newly rolled character can 'click click click' a stormtrooper to death in a few seconds. Obviously the crowd that likes this model better doesn't have the same long term attention span that those of us who liked the old way do...so what possible 'logic' makes $OE think that even if they get 'more' of these customers they will be able to keep them beyond five minutes? Aren't the vast majority going to just 'bounce' to the next shiney object that comes along? Those of us who loved the 'sandbox' and truly got involved in the interaction and community saw it as OUR world...and most would have stayed for years even if 'bigger better' MMO's came along. The 'hardcore' gamers that Smed has specifically discounted, are the ones that would have kept paying the bills years from now, not the 'give me kool lewt' crowd that goes for the 'kill, loot, kill' format the game has moved to.
What?!?!?!?!
In order for your analogy to work, the small child would have to be daily shooting the dog with a beebee gun and never feed it and just beat it for no reason. Then, when that pet attacks, people would say "Wow, that kid got what he deserved, its a wonder that dog didnt attack years ago".
I think the developers who put "years of hard work into a project" wouldnt scrap it in favor of a crap flavored game like the nge. I think that a fan base that is older and more mature can appreciate a game that has clearly been well thought out and implemented and will be a hell of alot loyal then any kid with ADD.
I think the fanbase is the last part any smart developer (or person for that matter) would blame for the cunge debacle.
But then again, if you run a company like soe does, and like to lie and mislead your customers, then you definatley want those ADD kids playing, because you can do whatever the hell you want to with it and they probably wouldnt notice, much less care.
For the Horde!
An excerpt from Ico's Rules On Creating an MMO.
1. Resist the urge to base your MMO on a beloved story or myth.
Regardless of how well polished an mmo is, there will always be those rabid fans of the original story or myth loudly pointing out inconsistencies. We saw this when Jedi were introduced, which led to the accelerated decline of the SWG. Developers constantly tried to manage game balance issues and appeasing those that felt Jedi were extinct during that time line.
This is why, although I'm a huge fan of Tolkien, I won't bother with LOTR: Online.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Nice post Duncan, but you are wrong... From a macro perspective, you do realize that our economy has grown by trillions of dollars from the original SW era right? Big deal if there aren't "Empty Box Pre-Orders", kids have so many more ways to buy SW merch... I think you are romanticizing your era a tad too much... The hysteria may have seemed to be more prevalent during our times, but you need to get off your rocking chair for a second and realize that SW is a much larger phenomenon than it was back in our day...
The new trilogy had worldwide releases raking in billions of dollars, how much did the originals make? That's enough to quash your argument right there... How many video games for SW existed back in the 70's? Kids can now buy whatever they want for SW now, the plastic figurines used to be the only thing you could get relating to the movies, and THAT is why they sold like wildfire...
As much as I like reading what you post Duncan, you need to realize that the world has changed alot since our SW era... There is a next generation of SW fans... This is the generation that has SW desktop themes, SW cartoon network DVD's, SW DVD's for all the movies, over a dozen SW game titles to select from, endless SW toys and yes, the coveted SW underwear...
If it makes you feel better that the old SW era was still better, than fine, I can't prove that one way or the other... But there IS a next-gen SW fanbase and THEY WILL out spend our generation by at least 100 fold, hell, that may even be conservative too...
I disagree with the bolded statement. Just a few points:
1. I'd imagine that the distribution of the prequels went to a larger number of theatres.
2. The cost of tickets today is greater (even adjusted for inflation).
3. The people going to those movies were primarily fans who saw the originals.
Most of the younger crowd, born in the late 80 or 90s, which I encounter, really didn't like the Ep. 1 - 3.
(Warning: nerd alert)
The overwhelming majority of people belonging to SW Fan Clubs, like the 501st are adults in age 30+. Of course, this is just my direct observation.
The people that I trade collectables with are rarely younger then 30. I'd contend that fan base may be growing, however the greater portion of the population were fans from the original trilogy.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Maybe the original sw trilogies didnt make as much money or have world wide openings (which probably isnt true anyways), but they had a much more mystical quality about them. No movie had ever been made like that before. Now, the new trilogies are just more pretty effects in a sea of sci-fi movies. They werent even that great imo
You dont see little kids wanting to be luke or han anymore. They want to be 50cent. To kids now, the sw trilogies are just another spectacle.
For the Horde!
I disagree with the bolded statement. Just a few points:
1. I'd imagine that the distribution of the prequels went to a larger number of theatres.
2. The cost of tickets today is greater (even adjusted for inflation).
3. The people going to those movies were primarily fans who saw the originals.
Most of the younger crowd, born in the late 80 or 90s, which I encounter, really didn't like the Ep. 1 - 3.
(Warning: nerd alert)
The overwhelming majority of people belonging to SW Fan Clubs, like the 501st are adults in age 30+. Of course, this is just my direct observation.
The people that I trade collectables with are rarely younger then 30. I'd contend that fan base may be growing, however the greater portion of the population were fans from the original trilogy.
Just going to back up IonGames about the money made from the movies. The first Star Wars movie (adjusted for inflation and US income only) ranks #2 all time. Only Gone With the Wind has made more money than any other movie.
#2 Star Wars: ANH $1,139,965,400 Theaters: 1750
#12 Star Wars: ESB $628,356,100 Theaters: 1278
#14 Star Wars: RotJ $601,980,200 Theaters: 1764
$19 Star Wars: TPM $542,885,200 Theaters: 3126
#81 Star wars: AotC $342,198,200 Theaters: 3161
$55 Star wars: RotS $380,270,600 Theaters: 3663
World wide numbers don't include inflation and the value of the $ was more valuable in 1977 (ANH) than 2005 (RotS). RotS had $848,797,674 world wide and ANH in 1977 dollars had $775,398,007.
My source: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm
As a mildly amusing and slightly related tangent (to the New Star Wars/Old Star Wars debate at hand)...my mother in law got my 2 year old son some of the 'clicks' Star Wars miniatures for Christmas. It doesn't matter how many times we tell him the proper name for General Grievous, he still insists on calling him 'Darth Vader.'
To me, it just goes to show how much the original trilogy surpases the new ones in terms of iconic recognition. Even a two year old can tell that Greivous was just a poor attempt to imitate Vader.
Nice post Duncan, but you are wrong... From a macro perspective, you do realize that our economy has grown by trillions of dollars from the original SW era right? Big deal if there aren't "Empty Box Pre-Orders", kids have so many more ways to buy SW merch... I think you are romanticizing your era a tad too much... The hysteria may have seemed to be more prevalent during our times, but you need to get off your rocking chair for a second and realize that SW is a much larger phenomenon than it was back in our day...
The new trilogy had worldwide releases raking in billions of dollars, how much did the originals make? That's enough to quash your argument right there... How many video games for SW existed back in the 70's? Kids can now buy whatever they want for SW now, the plastic figurines used to be the only thing you could get relating to the movies, and THAT is why they sold like wildfire...
As much as I like reading what you post Duncan, you need to realize that the world has changed alot since our SW era... There is a next generation of SW fans... This is the generation that has SW desktop themes, SW cartoon network DVD's, SW DVD's for all the movies, over a dozen SW game titles to select from, endless SW toys and yes, the coveted SW underwear...
If it makes you feel better that the old SW era was still better, than fine, I can't prove that one way or the other... But there IS a next-gen SW fanbase and THEY WILL out spend our generation by at least 100 fold, hell, that may even be conservative too...
You make good arguments, but please try to drop the bad boy image for a little while when we are actually having a good discussion. It's not necesary here.
Of course the economy has grown by trillions of dollars since since the original SW era. We'd be in trouble if it hadn't. But you seem to be a little more "in touch" with the world of retail than I am, so you tell me... Yes, the kids have plenty more ways to buy SW stuff... But are they? I don't think so, there isn't the same "buzz" in the air, but I'm not into retail, so I might be wrong.
The new trilogies had releases worth millions of dollars, that's true. But I think that like me, most people saw it to give closure. I am a big Star Wars fan, I saw the new trilogy and although I was dissapointed from the first movie, I still went to see the other too. Going as far as making a huge ass line to see the last one. Why? I knew that I was more than likely going to be dissapointed, I knew that George Lucas had strayed away from his dream and turned into a hack. Then why did I go see it? I think it was because, first I had hope and I wanted to give it closure. I'm quite sure I'm not alone on this. I know people that saw the original movies multiple times, when they first came out and then a few years ago when they were re-released for the 20th anniversary. How many people saw this new trilogy multiple times? Don't think quite as many as back then.
The new trilogy made millions of dollars yes, but your question of how much did the originals make is irrelevant. According to www.the-numbers.com Star Wars made:
Date Movie 1st Weekend US Gross WorldWide Gross Budget
As you can see, the gap between the numbers isn't that great, and when you consider the fact, that things were A LOT CHEAPER back when the original movies were released, I think the original trilogy beats the new one hands down!
Perhaps you are right and there IS a new generation of Star Wars fan. Only time will tell if this new generation will be as loyal the previous one.
Edit: Sorry about the crappiness of the table, it doesn't look like that when I edit it.
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
I totally agree
Ive been buying this game and that game, looking for something after SWG died.
Ive yet to find anything that sparks my interest.
I just bought DDO...ppfff not good.
It just makes me miss SWG even more.
Why arent anyone making a nice substitute, as you say there seems to be a clear indication that loads of ppl miss something, not on the marked.
brgds Nicolai
Way to get things back on topic Nik.
Ironically, I too purchased DDO last week, and it is likewise my disappointment with that title that has largely motivated this post. Turbine will probably not get so much as a months subscription out of me due primarily to the complet lack of depth. Based on the descriptions, The Chronicle seems to show a great deal of promise- but MMOCenter appears to have bitten off more than they can chew with that project (their web site Domain expired today...wow not exactly confidence inspiring) and I have my doubts that they will be able to deliver on what they have promised. So that leaves me once more wondering, why is this obviously very large market being ignored?
Well, about the time of AotC, Wizard Mag did an article with the NY Times (or with someone at the Times, I don't remember exactly) about SW, primarily looking at research into the demographics of it's fans, who buys it's merchandise & why the excitement of AotC was so low.
They used a research company that pulled info from various sources, including Nielsen I believe.
They found out a couple of interesting things:
They then proceeded to discuss why SW wasn't catching on nearly as well with younger children as it did in the 70's, and why it was still so popular with my generation. Now I don't remember most of it, only a few things, but I'll look for it online. If I remember correctly, they basically said that the original SW generation made up about 80% of the total SW fanbase. Considering that there are more children now than then, that's quite a dramatic statement.
I was at the premiers for every SW movie from ESB on, and for the PM & AotC almost the ENTIRE audience was my age or older. I think I only saw 3 kids at both of them. That alone says a ton, considering that the last midnight premier of the last Harry Potter movie was packed with kids.
A majority of SW fans and gamers are growing older, and looking for more in a game than twitching. I own well over 50k of SW collectibles and merchandise (I have all of the original fig's in packaging, as well as DV & a Yoda Manquettes, I just need BF now, hehe... those are over 75% of the total value), and I haven't even considered buying another SW item since about December due to the sour taste the NGE has left in my mouth. It's a shame LA can't see it, they've ticked of 100's of Thousands of SW / SWG fans...
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Vanguard SoH
I'm not a Fantasy fan, but I (and my clan) will be playing this game. 5 years of Dev, a year of Alpha, a year of Beta, a deep crafting system, a deep harvesting system, diversity, persistent world, entertaining to a degree, player cities, mounts, ships, player strongholds, player housing & a world with FAR more depth than SWG. Heck, read the FAQ. It's a book, and it doesn't even begin to touch all of the game. And to top it all off, read some Dev posts. They listen to their community, and have open dialog with them.
Read the Forums, watch the movies and check out the Pics... it's the next level of gaming, and a clear successor to SWG.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
While I definitely think there is a desire to somehow capture the gaming dollars of the "new SW fans" I also think there aren't as many of them as people seem to think. I have a 10 year old son and he is a pretty big SW fan who says his favorite of the bunch is Ep 2 unfortunately, but he is mainly a SW fan because I am. His friends aren't really any more excited about Star Wars than they are about Halo, Pokemon or Naruto to be honest. And if I was kid nowadays I'm not sure how excited I would be about Star Wars either. There are an overabundance of great titles for kids unlike when I was a kid and in this high tech world Star Wars kinda seems dated in some respects.
I agree that us old time SW fans can be high maintenance and difficult at times, but most of us can accept some deficiencies or deviations if the core of the thing is good. Most of us played with those dumb little action figures until the paint rubbed off and those definitely weren't perfect. And it isn't like there have been this endless stream of GREAT Star Wars games that SWG just couldn't live up to. In fact, most of them were absolutely terrible, but we bought a lot of them anyway because it was Star Wars. Prior to SWG about the only ones of note were X-Wing, Tie Fighter and a few Nintendo titles like Super Star Wars.
What I am getting at is that I don't think teenagers are the best market to go for like many of the big companies seem to think. Teens have massive amounts of things tearing at their entertainment dollar from IPods to Xbox 360 and they are very fickle about what they want (not to mention extremely short attention spans). Those of us in the 25 and up crowd, however, have lots of money to spend, a high desire for certain products and a tendency to spend on impulse and emotion on certain things.
If anyone needs convincing all they have to do is look at the initial rush of people trying to play SWG. A rush so extreme that the servers couldn't remain stable and nobody could log on for several days. There were probably some teens in that group, but I would bet anything that the vast majority of those maniacal people who initially bought the game were from the 25 and up demographic.
So I really think there is money to be made if somebody caters to the 25 and up crowd, but I don't think anyone really knows how very well nor do they comprehend how much money potentially can be made.
Hi,
Although I apperciate your opinon I happen to disagree with it. I think there were enough Star Wars fans, scifi fans, and people just looking for a decent MMORPG that we could support one and did for almost 2 years. I think what hurt SWG in the beginning [aside from some expectations by SOE and a couple of issue with combat] was the sever lack of content and no true GCW [galactic civil war]. I personally believe if they had those 2 major item in high gear we would all either be continue playing the SWG we like or SOE would have a lot more players [customers] pissed off...lol
IMO,
Tauceit
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
"The new trilogy had worldwide releases raking in billions of dollars, how much did the originals make? That's enough to quash your argument right there... How many video games for SW existed back in the 70's? Kids can now buy whatever they want for SW now, the plastic figurines used to be the only thing you could get relating to the movies, and THAT is why they sold like wildfire..."
You make statements in your post beyond the part I quote which in some ways are true.. but are slightly skewed to make a point you want to make.
I saw Episode 4 in the 1970's.. I wasn't there the day it released. My sister had seen the film 10 times before I managed to see it. Relatively I was 8 years old then and I am now 36.
My sister is 4.5 years older than me and has 3 children. The youngest child is 16... and the oldest 21 and my sister (she would kill me) is 40. The kids would be fans of star wars... not so much that my sister way but because I was. Just like most of what they learned about computers was from me their uncle.
Other people who saw the movies have kids who no doubt are fans because their parents introduced them to the movies. So its not exactly a new breed of fans magicly manifested themselves on this planet but rather who introduced to a Story by their parents aka the first fans.
How much money did the original films make?
You do realize Star Wars (as it was called that then rather than EP4 at the time) was the biggest money making film until it was replaced by ET.
You do realize and this was a jeopardy question... that at one time Harrison Ford was in 8 out of the top 10 grossing films (that's the list of the 10 making the most ever at that time).
3 were Star Wars movies.. 3 were indiana Jones movies and I forget the other 2.
So I guess the question is...
Were EP 1, 2 or 3 ever in the top 10 grossing films?
You do realize what some of those "plastic figurines" sell for on ebay today? right...
How many 16 year olds do you see cruising with 3000 bucks to spend on old star wars things. Forget about $15 a month for a game.
Here is one example I found searching just now... Its the headset that luke/han wore in the falcons turrets in EP4 and supposedly comes from the star wars archives or whatever (I'm not a collector).
"Comes directly from the Gary Kurtz/Jason Joiner Archive of original Star Wars artifacts"
Bid starts at $5000
Under that is a collection of 100 figures for $2500 buy now...
The more accurate list is to go look at is auctions that have ended and see what actually sold for. If they had feedback left to actually prove it made a sale. I've seen auctions for A Wings time to time that claim it was one of the rarer toys and those were selling for 2000 to 3000 dollars.
What age demographic do you really think is buying that stuff?
I just have a problem with people that like to think its some new fan base that magicly appeared... a different economy for the age group etc etc
EP 1 - 3 had the special effects and things for their time did they dominate the box office? The top 10 grossing films ever?
Its a point because EP 4 to 6 did with what they could use at the time to make them. So it relates to your question of how much they made. Relative to market terms of success at the relevant times.
You also have to consider that the only reason Lucas got the rights he did was.. The studio was about to go bankrupt and the fact Star Wars was a success saved it. That's part of history you can look up and is mentioned in the little films about Star Wars like the dreams documentary that floats around on cable.
So I'd say its safe to say there is a large enough older crowd with plenty of money...
Eve seems to be doing relatively well. Also, it'll be interesting to watch how Tabula Rosa will fair.
The problem with 'sandbox' type games is that they're difficult to maintain imo.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I'm enjoying the discussion so far and particularly appreciate the reasonable debate and lack of flame so far, thanks everyone.
Under the same line of conversation of the most recent posts, I find it interesting that Lucas himself, essentially 'sold out' this older, established crowd for a younger audience with his new movies. I read an interview with him around the time of TPM's release where he specifically indicated that he had younger (teen/pre teen at the time) kids and that he wanted to tailor the new movies to them. He specifically said at the time he didn't really care what the older audience wanted...he already has money and it was his story and he was going to make the prequels the way he wanted them. Thus the creation of everyone's favoite character, Jar Jar Binks.
One is prompted to wonder how much of this attitude has come into play in LA's role of governing our lamented game.
<edited for minor grammatical issues and typos...I'm picky that way>
Hi,
Although I apperciate your opinon I happen to disagree with it. I think there were enough Star Wars fans, scifi fans, and people just looking for a decent MMORPG that we could support one and did for almost 2 years. I think what hurt SWG in the beginning [aside from some expectations by SOE and a couple of issue with combat] was the sever lack of content and no true GCW [galactic civil war]. I personally believe if they had those 2 major item in high gear we would all either be continue playing the SWG we like or SOE would have a lot more players [customers] pissed off...lol
IMO,
Tauceit
I agree there are a lot of us and probably enough to "support" an MMO all by ourselves, but companies aren't looking to be "supported" like they are PBS or something. They are all looking to make as much money as they can and the way to do that is to tap into the biggest payout. What I should have said I guess was that a lot of MMO's seem to be chasing what they perceive to be the holy grail of players within the teenage demographic and ignoring any other one because they think that is where the most money is to be found.
I just think there is some sort of industry perception that the teeming masses of teen players is where the really big bucks are and while I think they do statistically outnumber us as a group I also think if a really comprehensive study was done MMO companies might discover that the adult demographic is the player they ultimately make the most money from.
Most teenagers I know (along with a few adults) are more interested in jumping right into a maxed out character so they can start making headshots on other players. Most adult players are more likely to have multiple accounts and keep them active for very long periods of time. I hate to paint groups with broad brushes here, but if an MMO by its very nature is supposed to develop slowly and take time to explore then it just doesn't make sense for them to keep courting a teenage oriented group, but in many cases that seems to be what it happening.
Personally I think the overwhelming success of WoW has so completely captured the greedy attention of MMO companies that they are going to do whatever they can to cater to the average WoW player. While I haven't seen any studies I would bet anything that the average WoW player is a male under 20 years old and that is why companies are changing their games to woo that crowd.