You do realize I'm talking about the backers and not the project creators right?
The income taxes are still there, for example we on CIG's store pay the VAT tax when pledging for anything. So do VAT registered uk-based KS creators charge it depending on the amount of money involved, what means a Crowdfund is not getting a pass on taxes.
Ok so why would you link an article talking about a KS creator getting charged taxes? Of course the creators pay taxes, they are receiving an income.
I was talking about pledgers and I also said I wasn't sure as it's been a while. I could go back and check receipts to see if I was charged taxes but I don't think I was.
Youre also proving my F my point about CIG's store and it being a pre order
No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.
Its not a pre-order for a game.
Taxes are being charged so it's a pre order
A lot of goods and service taxes around the globe, in Canada you would have to pay tax. I don't think we can call Crowdfunding a non-profit or a registered charity. I don't believe crowdfunding for a consumer product would meet the criteria.
You don't pay tax on a charitable donation, you can claim it on your tax filing to maybe get a refund but that's something different.
If I remember correctly KS doesn't charge tax on your pledge either. You pledge 100 and that's what is deducted but I could be wrong since it's been a while since I crowdfunded something.
CIG's store charges you tax which would qualify it as a consumer good. Since it isn't released yet it would fall under pre order and therefore eligible for a refund at any time
Its not a charitable donation. In a case like SC, your doing it for and getting something in return.
Maybe I should tell all my customers to give me charitable donations so they can save on the GST. I will give them the products they purchased back as gifts.
You know... a small gesture of thanks for their generosity.
Youre also proving my F my point about CIG's store and it being a pre order
So if we back a KS and we're get charged VAT, that seems is the customer who pays the VAT, it becomes a Pre-Order because it pays the tax as other normal product?
For me crowdfunding, on this specific sphere of digital games is not getting any pass from normal products, what does not remove the implications and specific regulation / legislation towards Crowdfunding (different per country) not being the same.
No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.
Its not a pre-order for a game.
Taxes are being charged so it's a pre order
A lot of goods and service taxes around the globe, in Canada you would have to pay tax. I don't think we can call Crowdfunding a non-profit or a registered charity. I don't believe crowdfunding for a consumer product would meet the criteria.
You don't pay tax on a charitable donation, you can claim it on your tax filing to maybe get a refund but that's something different.
If I remember correctly KS doesn't charge tax on your pledge either. You pledge 100 and that's what is deducted but I could be wrong since it's been a while since I crowdfunded something.
CIG's store charges you tax which would qualify it as a consumer good. Since it isn't released yet it would fall under pre order and therefore eligible for a refund at any time
Its not a charitable donation. In a case like SC, your doing it for and getting something in return.
Maybe I should tell all my customers to give me charitable donations so they can save on the GST. I will give them the products they purchased back as gifts.
You know... a small gesture of thanks for their generosity.
I'm not sure if we are arguing different points or agreeing with each other but in convulated ways lol
Youre also proving my F my point about CIG's store and it being a pre order
So if we back a KS and we're get charged VAT, that seems is the customer who pays the VAT, it becomes a Pre-Order because it pays the tax as other normal product?
For me crowdfunding, on this specific sphere of digital games is not getting any pass from normal products, what does not remove the implications and specific regulation towards Crowdfunding (different per country) not being the same.
Backing through KS it's a grey area since the laws haven't caught up yet.
For me paying through CIG's store no matter how they word it is a pre order. which means if someone wants a refund it should be given no questions asked regardless of how long ago it was purchased
I'm still a believer, and understand that every developer goes through setbacks and problems, but CIG has at least two extra ones. Firstly, they are (or were) a startup studio, which presents its own teething problems. Finding the proper cadence, getting the culture and all the studios working together as a unit. Secondly, they are working on quite a few things which have never been done, and quite frankly, thought impossible. So, that will naturally create a multitude of problems as well.
Given these realities and considerations, I forgive them their faults. I think the community needs to let up a bit, and in some respects we're worse than a publisher.
CIG is under ENORMOUS pressure developing these games. Gamers (especially the critics) are exceptionally fickle and picky. The final products will have to be perfect. If there are even the tiniest of flaws, there will be no end to the complaining and whining, and requests for refunds.
Creating anything with this level of detail, fidelity, and scope is going to require a lot of money, and a lot of time. So either drop the pressure or develop some patience.
I'm still a believer, and understand that every developer goes through setbacks and problems, but CIG has at least two extra ones. Firstly, they are (or were) a startup studio, which presents its own teething problems. Finding the proper cadence, getting the culture and all the studios working together as a unit. Secondly, they are working on quite a few things which have never been done, and quite frankly, thought impossible. So, that will naturally create a multitude of problems as well.
Given these realities and considerations, I forgive them their faults. I think the community needs to let up a bit, and in some respects we're worse than a publisher.
CIG is under ENORMOUS pressure developing these games. Gamers (especially the critics) are exceptionally fickle and picky. The final products will have to be perfect. If there are even the tiniest of flaws, there will be no end to the complaining and whining, and requests for refunds.
Creating anything with this level of detail, fidelity, and scope is going to require a lot of money, and a lot of time. So either drop the pressure or develop some patience.
I have to ask. What is it that they are working on that has never been done before?
For me paying through CIG's store no matter how they word it is a pre order. which means if someone wants a refund it should be given no questions asked regardless of how long ago it was purchased
But it is not the way for example Paypal is seeing it, with their decision of terminating customer protection for Crowdfunding. As they're done with dealing with the disputes over them; and due the grey area the counter-dispute over towards it being one investment.
No refunds for crowd funding, you should know that going in, its basically a donation to develop a game you want to play that might or might not ever get made.
Its not a pre-order for a game.
Taxes are being charged so it's a pre order
A lot of goods and service taxes around the globe, in Canada you would have to pay tax. I don't think we can call Crowdfunding a non-profit or a registered charity. I don't believe crowdfunding for a consumer product would meet the criteria.
You don't pay tax on a charitable donation, you can claim it on your tax filing to maybe get a refund but that's something different.
If I remember correctly KS doesn't charge tax on your pledge either. You pledge 100 and that's what is deducted but I could be wrong since it's been a while since I crowdfunded something.
CIG's store charges you tax which would qualify it as a consumer good. Since it isn't released yet it would fall under pre order and therefore eligible for a refund at any time
Its not a charitable donation. In a case like SC, your doing it for and getting something in return.
Maybe I should tell all my customers to give me charitable donations so they can save on the GST. I will give them the products they purchased back as gifts.
You know... a small gesture of thanks for their generosity.
I'm not sure if we are arguing different points or agreeing with each other but in convulated ways lol
Our only difference in opinion regarding this, is that I believe you are not purchasing a pre-order. Your purchasing a promise.
I'm still a believer, and understand that every developer goes through setbacks and problems, but CIG has at least two extra ones. Firstly, they are (or were) a startup studio, which presents its own teething problems. Finding the proper cadence, getting the culture and all the studios working together as a unit. Secondly, they are working on quite a few things which have never been done, and quite frankly, thought impossible. So, that will naturally create a multitude of problems as well.
Given these realities and considerations, I forgive them their faults. I think the community needs to let up a bit, and in some respects we're worse than a publisher.
CIG is under ENORMOUS pressure developing these games. Gamers (especially the critics) are exceptionally fickle and picky. The final products will have to be perfect. If there are even the tiniest of flaws, there will be no end to the complaining and whining, and requests for refunds.
Creating anything with this level of detail, fidelity, and scope is going to require a lot of money, and a lot of time. So either drop the pressure or develop some patience.
I have to ask. What is it that they are working on that has never been done before?
I 2nd that question
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
Star Citizen hasn't. It's not one thing, not PG Planets, not FPS, not EVA, not Multi-Crew that have never been done before. It's the whole of them together, on the scale and detail SC is going for; like Crazy pretty much said, what several people said Impossible.
It comes from games like Freelancer, or Star Wars Galaxies, but one actual game fitting the current gen and today's technology.
I'm still a believer, and understand that every developer goes through setbacks and problems, but CIG has at least two extra ones. Firstly, they are (or were) a startup studio, which presents its own teething problems. Finding the proper cadence, getting the culture and all the studios working together as a unit. Secondly, they are working on quite a few things which have never been done, and quite frankly, thought impossible. So, that will naturally create a multitude of problems as well.
Given these realities and considerations, I forgive them their faults. I think the community needs to let up a bit, and in some respects we're worse than a publisher.
CIG is under ENORMOUS pressure developing these games. Gamers (especially the critics) are exceptionally fickle and picky. The final products will have to be perfect. If there are even the tiniest of flaws, there will be no end to the complaining and whining, and requests for refunds.
Creating anything with this level of detail, fidelity, and scope is going to require a lot of money, and a lot of time. So either drop the pressure or develop some patience.
I have to ask. What is it that they are working on that has never been done before?
I 2nd that question
I don't know, whatever it is that was "impossible" I suppose
For me paying through CIG's store no matter how they word it is a pre order. which means if someone wants a refund it should be given no questions asked regardless of how long ago it was purchased
But it is not the way for example Paypal is seeing it, with their decision of terminating customer protection for Crowdfunding. As they're done with dealing with the disputes over them; and due the grey area the counter-dispute over towards it being one investment.
I don't think PayPal's decision has anything to do with if it's a pre-order or not.
They are a for-profit company, and they'd be offering that customer protection to anything as long as it's good business to them.
I don't think PayPal's decision has anything to do with if it's a pre-order or not.
They are a for-profit company, and they'd be offering that customer protection to anything as long as it's good business to them.
Well their protection for Pre-orders was not affected by that policy change (for example who pre-ordered NMS seems via paypal protection service they were able to force the retailer to return the money), so obviously they separated the view because how controversial people's views are towards crowdfund, as legally it falls upon a grey area so they are stepping away from it.
I don't think PayPal's decision has anything to do with if it's a pre-order or not.
They are a for-profit company, and they'd be offering that customer protection to anything as long as it's good business to them.
Well their protection for Pre-orders was not affected by that policy change (for example who pre-ordered NMS seems via paypal protection service they were able to force the retailer to return the money), so obviously they separated the view because how controversial people's views are towards crowdfund, as legally it falls upon a grey area so they are stepping away from it.
So?
Insurance companies will refuse you life insurance based on how risky it would be to them. That's not the company separating you based on whether you're alive or not at the time you ask for insurance, it's the company separating based on how risky giving the insurance would be.
Similarly, I don't think PayPal took a stance on whether crowdfunding is a pre-order or not. They just noticed it was too risky for them to insure.
1. This is a link to a fan video which contains no deeper dev insight. 2. It has already been done flawlessy in a game where some italian dude was the protagonist.
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
I see it as a pre-order. They can call it what they want. But it's a transaction between two parties. You give cash and get something in return, use of a product. A gift implies something you may or may not get depending on how they feel about you. You pay them and they guarantee you will receive the product you want use of. Just like any store does. Look up the definition of a pre-order and you will see it fits better than the definition of a pledge.
The reason they don't accept regular credit credit cards is because credit card companies would likely agree with the owner of the card and not COGs definition of pledging. I wouldn't be surprised if they told PayPal the same thing, they would be dropped if they didn't change their policy. PayPal doesn't have a no dispute policy with anyone else that does pledges AFAIK.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I'm still a believer, and understand that every developer goes through setbacks and problems, but CIG has at least two extra ones. Firstly, they are (or were) a startup studio, which presents its own teething problems. Finding the proper cadence, getting the culture and all the studios working together as a unit. Secondly, they are working on quite a few things which have never been done, and quite frankly, thought impossible. So, that will naturally create a multitude of problems as well.
Given these realities and considerations, I forgive them their faults. I think the community needs to let up a bit, and in some respects we're worse than a publisher.
CIG is under ENORMOUS pressure developing these games. Gamers (especially the critics) are exceptionally fickle and picky. The final products will have to be perfect. If there are even the tiniest of flaws, there will be no end to the complaining and whining, and requests for refunds.
Creating anything with this level of detail, fidelity, and scope is going to require a lot of money, and a lot of time. So either drop the pressure or develop some patience.
I have to ask. What is it that they are working on that has never been done before?
I 2nd that question
Oh I have one ... No Skyboxes > All planets and stuff you see in the great plane of the universe are there. which comes to a few problems 1. with 100 planned star systems the sky will be very dark (especially on the border regions) 2. I like nebulas.
Edit: tehee they could decrease the distances so you can see other planets in other systems in the sky as well but that brings me back to this little italian guy :P
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it. The cake is a lie.
I must say great job defending the company you love Max. They should give you an MVP for all the work you put into defending them. I like CIG but if I think they're doing something wrong I'll say it. No company or person is 100% right all the time.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Oh I have one ... No Skyboxes > All planets and stuff you see in the great plane of the universe are there. which comes to a few problems 1. with 100 planned star systems the sky will be very dark (especially on the border regions) 2. I like nebulas.
I see in terms of space background one proper waste of resources to simulate the thing without one skybox; if not it will just look plain black. =/
I must say great job defending the company you love Max. They should give you an MVP for all the work you put into defending them. I like CIG but if I think they're doing something wrong I'll say it. No company or person is 100% right all the time.
I don't love the company, I love the game.
But your post raises me a question. Shouldn't you give a MVP for the obsessive behavior into attacking the game (or overall share negativity everywhere) as well? Prizes for everyone! And I say obsessive because well, some people here were even banned from this boards and created new accounts pretending to be someone else (but shhh don't tell anyone) just to continuing doing the same, ain't that dedication?
Oh I have one ... No Skyboxes > All planets and stuff you see in the great plane of the universe are there. which comes to a few problems 1. with 100 planned star systems the sky will be very dark (especially on the border regions) 2. I like nebulas.
I see in terms of space background one proper waste of resources to simulate the thing without one skybox; if not it will just look plain black. =/
I must say great job defending the company you love Max. They should give you an MVP for all the work you put into defending them. I like CIG but if I think they're doing something wrong I'll say it. No company or person is 100% right all the time.
Oh please don't come to me with these speeches. I don't love the company, I love the game.
Shouldn't you give a MVP for the obsessive behavior into attacking the game for who does nothing but do it as well? Prizes for everyone! And I say obsessive because well, some were even banned from this boards and created new accounts pretending to be someone else (but shhh don't tell anyone) just to continuing doing the same, ain't that dedication?
I really don't care that much about people who attack the game, the game is doing just fine on it's own right now. Sorry if my compliment upset you.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it totally depends on your company, speaking as an ex-call center manager I can tell you without a hesitation that some companies will not allow staff to hang up on a customer just because of bad language, sometimes even abusive language.
This was made illegal on our country. There was a scandal of suicides and mental breakdowns high rates on employees of call centers and they looked at what these people are submitted into, well, total submission. These days if you get heated you are usually asked to calm down, if not they'll hang the call.
Ironically, if they skipped GamesCon and showed us all of that at CitizenCon, plus the new planetary tech, people would be screaming for joy lol Perception is a very powerful thing.
Yeah, GC originally was not really even to have a presentation; they changed their minds. As for Citcon, if SQ42 had been shown as they had said it would, the story would have been different.
Looking for a reference to your statement: This was made illegal in our country. Which country are you referring too and can you cite the regulation or penal code for me?
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I really don't care that much about people who attack the game, the game is doing just fine on it's own right now. Sorry if my compliment upset you.
I'm not upset at all. I just don't get who makes it all about the supporters, being them somehow the "villains" and the other side of the story is never told. But hey that's just my opinion.
Oh I have one ... No Skyboxes > All planets and stuff you see in the great plane of the universe are there. which comes to a few problems 1. with 100 planned star systems the sky will be very dark (especially on the border regions) 2. I like nebulas.
I see in terms of space background one proper waste of resources to simulate the thing without one skybox; if not it will just look plain black. =/
I must say great job defending the company you love Max. They should give you an MVP for all the work you put into defending them. I like CIG but if I think they're doing something wrong I'll say it. No company or person is 100% right all the time.
I don't love the company, I love the game.
But your post raises me a question. Shouldn't you give a MVP for the obsessive behavior into attacking the game (or overall share negativity everywhere) as well? Prizes for everyone! And I say obsessive because well, some people here were even banned from this boards and created new accounts pretending to be someone else (but shhh don't tell anyone) just to continuing doing the same, ain't that dedication?
Some things are actually more negative though. A positive thing to come out of this Citizencon could have been releasing information that said SQ42 will be completed by the end of 2016 like they promised on their web page and other sources. A negative thing that actually did come out of Citizencon was that no one actually knows when SQ42 will come out.
You say that is sharing negativity, when in reality, it is looking at the facts and realizing that they have either been lying about the release date or were incapable of reaching their stated goal for any number of reasons. In the end, it is a failure either way. That all sounds very negative, but it is also the truth.
And please, PLEASE stop calling other people obsessive. It is especially unseemly coming from you.
Comments
I was talking about pledgers and I also said I wasn't sure as it's been a while. I could go back and check receipts to see if I was charged taxes but I don't think I was.
Youre also proving my F my point about CIG's store and it being a pre order
Maybe I should tell all my customers to give me charitable donations so they can save on the GST. I will give them the products they purchased back as gifts.
You know... a small gesture of thanks for their generosity.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
For me crowdfunding, on this specific sphere of digital games is not getting any pass from normal products, what does not remove the implications and specific regulation / legislation towards Crowdfunding (different per country) not being the same.
For me paying through CIG's store no matter how they word it is a pre order. which means if someone wants a refund it should be given no questions asked regardless of how long ago it was purchased
Given these realities and considerations, I forgive them their faults. I think the community needs to let up a bit, and in some respects we're worse than a publisher.
CIG is under ENORMOUS pressure developing these games. Gamers (especially the critics) are exceptionally fickle and picky. The final products will have to be perfect. If there are even the tiniest of flaws, there will be no end to the complaining and whining, and requests for refunds.
Creating anything with this level of detail, fidelity, and scope is going to require a lot of money, and a lot of time. So either drop the pressure or develop some patience.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
It comes from games like Freelancer, or Star Wars Galaxies, but one actual game fitting the current gen and today's technology.
I don't know, whatever it is that was "impossible" I suppose
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Synchronized Local Physics Grids
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/citizen-spotlight/4121-What-Is-So-Special-About-quot-Synchronized-Local-Physics-Grids-quot
They are a for-profit company, and they'd be offering that customer protection to anything as long as it's good business to them.
Insurance companies will refuse you life insurance based on how risky it would be to them. That's not the company separating you based on whether you're alive or not at the time you ask for insurance, it's the company separating based on how risky giving the insurance would be.
Similarly, I don't think PayPal took a stance on whether crowdfunding is a pre-order or not. They just noticed it was too risky for them to insure.
2. It has already been done flawlessy in a game where some italian dude was the protagonist.
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
The reason they don't accept regular credit credit cards is because credit card companies would likely agree with the owner of the card and not COGs definition of pledging. I wouldn't be surprised if they told PayPal the same thing, they would be dropped if they didn't change their policy. PayPal doesn't have a no dispute policy with anyone else that does pledges AFAIK.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
No Skyboxes > All planets and stuff you see in the great plane of the universe are there.
which comes to a few problems
1. with 100 planned star systems the sky will be very dark (especially on the border regions)
2. I like nebulas.
Edit: tehee they could decrease the distances so you can see other planets in other systems in the sky as well but that brings me back to this little italian guy :P
When you have cake, it is not the cake that creates the most magnificent of experiences, but it is the emotions attached to it.
The cake is a lie.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I don't love the company, I love the game.
But your post raises me a question. Shouldn't you give a MVP for the obsessive behavior into attacking the game (or overall share negativity everywhere) as well? Prizes for everyone! And I say obsessive because well, some people here were even banned from this boards and created new accounts pretending to be someone else (but shhh don't tell anyone) just to continuing doing the same, ain't that dedication?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
You say that is sharing negativity, when in reality, it is looking at the facts and realizing that they have either been lying about the release date or were incapable of reaching their stated goal for any number of reasons. In the end, it is a failure either way. That all sounds very negative, but it is also the truth.
And please, PLEASE stop calling other people obsessive. It is especially unseemly coming from you.