Looking for a reference to your statement: This was made illegal in our country. Which country are you referring too and can you cite the regulation or penal code for me?
Oh I live in Portugal, it was a mad story behind it when a TV newstation made on in-depth look at the sector of what happens inside call-centers, like I had to work on one several years ago for some time and you were literally broken into submission; they usually had a "points system" that we were forced to meet otherwise we would get fired so that ended up on forcefully having to accept abusive situations just for the sake of keeping our job; meaning people would keep silent about it. When the whole situation got public it allowed the regulators to hit hard and end some of the abuses. So when I say illegal, it's something it already was but nobody was doing anything about it.
And please, PLEASE stop calling other people obsessive. It is especially unseemly coming from you.
I won't say that the banned users that create fake accounts pretending to be someone else just to continue push on the same narrative on this forum to not be obsessed. Sorry.
Looking for a reference to your statement: This was made illegal in our country. Which country are you referring too and can you cite the regulation or penal code for me?
Oh I live in Portugal, it was a mad story behind it when a TV newstation made on in-depth look at the sector of what happens inside call-centers, like I had to work on one several years ago for some time and you were literally broken into submission; they usually had a "points system" that we were forced to meet otherwise we would get fired so that ended up on forcefully having to accept abusive situations just for the sake of keeping our job; meaning people would keep silent about it. When the whole situation got public it allowed the regulators to hit hard and end some of the abuses. So when I say illegal, it's something it already was but nobody was doing anything about it.
Hey thanks man, I am taking Organizational communications for school right now and this is a topic I am using for a paper I have due. Basically, the 'bad side' of all these communication assets we have at our disposal.
Thanks again, and sorry you had to deal with that junk it sounds horrible.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Looking for a reference to your statement: This was made illegal in our country. Which country are you referring too and can you cite the regulation or penal code for me?
Oh I live in Portugal, it was a mad story behind it when a TV newstation made on in-depth look at the sector of what happens inside call-centers, like I had to work on one several years ago for some time and you were literally broken into submission; they usually had a "points system" that we were forced to meet otherwise we would get fired so that ended up on forcefully having to accept abusive situations just for the sake of keeping our job; meaning people would keep silent about it. When the whole situation got public it allowed the regulators to hit hard and end some of the abuses. So when I say illegal, it's something it already was but nobody was doing anything about it.
And please, PLEASE stop calling other people obsessive. It is especially unseemly coming from you.
I won't say that people who get banned and create fake accounts pretending to be someone else just to continue sharing negativity (and vice-versa) on this forum to not be obsessed. Sorry.
The hypocrisy and irony you bring to the table is pretty shocking sometimes.
The hypocrisy and irony you bring to the table is pretty shocking sometimes.
Well i'm sorry you think like that but I won't play a Pretend game towards what happens here sometimes. I'll condemn anyone who does stuff like that, that's obsessive behavior and sometimes it's not even about the topic, it's about grudges against specific posters.
Some time ago I was on a Disquss of an article talking to someone who was I think wondering about the art direction of landing zones like Arccorp if they would be fully explore-able (what they aren't so I clarified that); from sudden someone from this forum on a just freshly created account comes against me with one absolute wall of insults; of course hiding his face but shows me how to some here, it is personal.
The hypocrisy and irony you bring to the table is pretty shocking sometimes.
Well i'm sorry you think like that but I won't play a Pretend game towards what happens here sometimes. I'll condemn anyone who does stuff like that, that's obsessive behavior and sometimes it's not even about the topic, it's about grudges against specific posters.
Some time ago I was on a Disquss of an article talking to someone who was I think wondering about the art direction of landing zones like Arccorp if they would be fully explore-able (what they aren't so I clarified that); from sudden someone from this forum on a just freshly created account comes against me with one absolute wall of insults; of course hiding his face but shows me how to some here, it is personal.
Yes, to some people it is personal - like to you. That is, you are calling other people obsessive. You are making it personal with newer accounts that disagree with you by calling these people obsessive. You have no evidence anyone is an alt account. On top of that, you post perhaps more than anybody on this site in the past 6 months or so. Accusing others of what you are guilty of is also dishonest.
Maybe instead of maligning a whole group of people, you could instead stick to your SC spin mode.
Yes, to some people it is personal - like to you. That is, you are calling other people obsessive. You are making it personal with newer accounts that disagree with you by calling these people obsessive. You have no evidence anyone is an alt account.
No, I find it obsessive and that's it, I don't need any personal issues with the persons who do that. It is not me who needs evidence, that's not my job; it's the mods job and it's quite visible several of the perm-banned accounts for ban bypassing. I'm not going to pursue any witch hunt, but I'm not going to pretend nothing happens. As for your last accusation, obsessive was not towards who posts a lot as you can read on previous posts.
In the end it's only a game, entertainment. A hobby, not a religion or a way of life, except for the people that work for them and make a living off the game.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
In the end it's only a game, entertainment. A hobby, not a religion or a way of life, except for the people that work for them and make a living off the game.
You missed the one important point. After so much money taken in there still is no game.
Well it seems most believe they could have already gone through 100m but I do notice no one brings up bonuses through the years and we all know that could add up between all companies. Personally I think you guys are low balling how much they already spent, heck last years, I believe CitizenCon had that big airplane in background. That had to cost pretty penny, just think miscellaneous costs you are being too conservative!
Ahem .... that was the Concorde ... and its a museum ... that "big airplane" is always there ..... at no extra cost.
The 10 k$ / month / employee rule of thumb includes everything (including bonuses).
I must say great job defending the company you love Max. They should give you an MVP for all the work you put into defending them. I like CIG but if I think they're doing something wrong I'll say it. No company or person is 100% right all the time.
I don't love the company, I love the game.
But your post raises me a question. Shouldn't you give a MVP for the obsessive behavior into attacking the game (or overall share negativity everywhere) as well? Prizes for everyone! And I say obsessive because well, some people here were even banned from this boards and created new accounts pretending to be someone else (but shhh don't tell anyone) just to continuing doing the same, ain't that dedication?
I agree with people calling out this accusation of obsessiveness. Max you made over 2500 posts almost solely supporting Star Citizen on another game's forums in the span of 7 months or so. Many people would call that an obsessive defense of the game / company.
This is not actaully having a dig at you, I just believe that if you're going to make claims about others then you have to be willing to have the mirror held up to yourself. That's only fair.
It seems to me, most of the negativity stems from idle speculation, and cognitive bias. And as such time until they can present stone cold facts, and most specifically a financial statement proving how much money CIG has actually collected and spent, these arguments don't hold any water for me. The stance has been taken, pulling those idle speculations from nether-regions in order to support those wildly biased claims.
If CIG was in such dire straits as some of you claim, you would be hearing about it. You cannot cite game delays as evidence in that regard, as EVERY game is delayed. The actuality is that most of those delays happen before the game is even publicized, but absolutely prior to a specific release date being given.
The truth is that there has been an ENORMOUS amount of work done on the back end of this game, and what is visible in these presentations is just the eye candy results of that work. I don't think most people really have a grasp of the technical challenges CIG has overcome or continues to face. Entire pieces were stripped out and redone, not because Roberts is a megalomaniac with an impossible vision, but because the work was just not very good. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.
Also, and specifically with SQ42, it was mentioned that it is near release, but the main reason for the delay was that it needed a bit more polish. It has also been stated repeatedly that the game will be release when it's ready, not before. Why then does CIG receive this criticism, when Blizzard does not for the same strict adherence to quality control? That's a double standard.
However, I will say that it does promote bad feelings and distrust to give release dates and then miss them, but it is not a sign of the apocalypse, but rather the eventualities of developing a project of this scale. Could CIG have done a better job? Sure, but so could every other developer. No one is perfect.
This is just like politics, but worse. Everyone has chosen their side, and no force, logical or emotional, will dissuade them from it.
It seems to me, most of the negativity stems from idle speculation, and cognitive bias. And as such time until they can present stone cold facts, and most specifically a financial statement proving how much money CIG has actually collected and spent, these arguments don't hold any water for me. The stance has been taken, pulling those idle speculations from nether-regions in order to support those wildly biased claims.
If CIG was in such dire straits as some of you claim, you would be hearing about it. You cannot cite game delays as evidence in that regard, as EVERY game is delayed. The actuality is that most of those delays happen before the game is even publicized, but absolutely prior to a specific release date being given.
The truth is that there has been an ENORMOUS amount of work done on the back end of this game, and what is visible in these presentations is just the eye candy results of that work. I don't think most people really have a grasp of the technical challenges CIG has overcome or continues to face. Entire pieces were stripped out and redone, not because Roberts is a megalomaniac with an impossible vision, but because the work was just not very good. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.
Also, and specifically with SQ42, it was mentioned that it is near release, but the main reason for the delay was that it needed a bit more polish. It has also been stated repeatedly that the game will be release when it's ready, not before. Why then does CIG receive this criticism, when Blizzard does not for the same strict adherence to quality control? That's a double standard.
However, I will say that it does promote bad feelings and distrust to give release dates and then miss them, but it is not a sign of the apocalypse, but rather the eventualities of developing a project of this scale. Could CIG have done a better job? Sure, but so could every other developer. No one is perfect.
This is just like politics, but worse. Everyone has chosen their side, and no force, logical or emotional, will dissuade them from it.
Your bias is causing you to miss an entire point. The company pretending that product is right around the corner when in fact its years away. Yes this is deception and to throw up some lame excuse that it needs polishing is only accepted through bias and not logical thinking.
Also, and specifically with SQ42, it was mentioned that it is near release, but the main reason for the delay was that it needed a bit more polish.
Sigh. If they where ANY kind of close to being done, they would have shown a demo mission.
They did not.
They do not even have just a slice of the game actually working and stable enough to even show to the most easy crowd for them to please, CitizenCon. That is where they are at.
They choose to show the obviously duct tape patched together planet demo over showing where they are at with SQ42. And that is far away from just "needing a bit more polish".
It seems to me, most of the negativity stems from idle speculation, and cognitive bias. And as such time until they can present stone cold facts, and most specifically a financial statement proving how much money CIG has actually collected and spent, these arguments don't hold any water for me. The stance has been taken, pulling those idle speculations from nether-regions in order to support those wildly biased claims.
So far CIG has raised 128,358,419 dollars through crowdfunding. That part of idle speculation comes from RSI's website.
It's easy enough to make rought estimations on CIG's financial status when you have that much information available. Some of the doomsayers misuse those numbers, but making estimates is not idle speculation nor cognitive bias. It's math.
How many years has this game been promised with only 'You can buy this ship for X amount of dollars'. That there has not been an alpha or beta test out there should be distressing for the fans and investors. Even A.Net showed early versions of GW2 at shows, let alone a show of their own. That should tell people a lot about what is going on. Just showing a video of 'supposed game play' doesn't mean anything, every company has to those to make their game look better than it is.
The old saying, 'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me' is very apropos here. No game play means: 1. the studio has bit off more than it can handle. 2. they game engine is a mess. 3. they are trying to make sure their investors don't pull and run. 4. they are fooling themselves.
This just says that crowdfunding people should be ware. It is just like taking money and flushing down the toilet.
botrytis said: That there is not alpha or beta out there is distressing.
As much people here will pretend the alpha does not exist, or discredit it for nothing; it does exist, it is being updated not monthly but currently around a 2 months timeframe. It is a very limited alpha comparing to what it is meant to be but with pretty much the core play mechanics that the final game is set upon already there.
Your bias is causing you to miss an entire point. The company pretending that product is right around the corner when in fact its years away. Yes this is deception and to throw up some lame excuse that it needs polishing is only accepted through bias and not logical thinking.
It is not bias, It is logical, tempered enthusiasm. There are certainly things about the development I don't like, but it isn't the apocalypse that you and some others claim. I'll admit that "polish" might be a stretch in terms of what's needed, but I cannot agree with your point that it is outright deception. I highly doubt it's "years" away. If things went from one mission in white-box, to all missions in grey-box 3 months later, mid year next year sounds like a reasonable time frame to me. I see you and the other doomsayers as illogical, jumping to conclusions with your assessments, or perhaps just simply parroting what you've read and heard.
The delay is disappointing, but not the end of the world. I can't completely defend the seemingly continuous missing of deadlines (at worst though I believe, it is just poor marketing), but I do understand that delays are inevitable, and I would rather them take extra time to ensure the final product is awesome, instead of releasing a polished turd (at deadline) such as that of EA and ActiBlizz. You do know people hate that, and are quite vocal about it when it happens.
However, What is more likely is that Chris decided not to pull resources off of the game development to produce a demo, in order to ensure and maximize the completion of the full game. He's said that they are finishing one mission (presumptive demo) to release quality, and the others will follow suite.
It's easy enough to make rought estimations on CIG's financial status when you have that much information available. Some of the doomsayers misuse those numbers, but making estimates is not idle speculation nor cognitive bias. It's math.
I was not aware that those financial documents existed. I stand corrected on that. Thank you for the information.
Anyone posting over 2500 times on a single topic in less than a year is either obsessed or employed :-)
Hell, i don't think i have that many posts on my account here in over 10 years lol
I remembered when I was so obsessed with gundam. Yet never would I consider replying to every single post about it.
I reckon its the later...
From Saul Alinsky’s "Rules for Radicals"
No. 5) "Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions." ,
No. 12) "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”
Basically if all else fails, attack the person instead of their argument.
Hell, i don't think i have that many posts on my account here in over 10 years lol
It's called a permanent ongoing flame war; one that scales to one activity that eventually, posts become more like messages in a chatroom due the speed of the conversation. lol
Being a fan is a thing, hate the game/company and still being willing to go as far as get banned from the place and keep posting under alt accounts and VPN's: that's a whole other level.
They don't update it, in fact Roberts made a comment some time down the road you won't need to download the full GB bs they make players do all the time.
The terminology is whatever, it's releasing updates during the course of its development. I have no idea why you'd hit me with they don't update it with a follow-up comment about the patcher. O.o
It isn't hitting just that there is a big difference from updating an alpha than having to delete it and download the whole thing again. That should worry everyone of us backers. I have never been involved with a company that couldn't setup a patching system. That is what keeps me wondering how good any of these developers are, or are allowed to do. Clearly everything has to come from Roberts before people can take a poop in this company. Yes am trying to be a little funny!
A game patcher wouldn't be their first priority when a SP campaign named SQ42 is that priority. Only this year there's finally visible progress on PU-specific releases and development (especially tech-wise).
It feels like it's something simple, until we get to see that to change Cryengine's default behaviors on both game loadings and patching (as the engine was never made to one MMO so it didn't need that), they did/are going to the core of the engine to make the new patcher possible, there's quite in-depth info on that on the Austin ATV (8:50 for the direct topic):
Comments
I won't say that the banned users that create fake accounts pretending to be someone else just to continue push on the same narrative on this forum to not be obsessed. Sorry.
Thanks again, and sorry you had to deal with that junk it sounds horrible.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Some time ago I was on a Disquss of an article talking to someone who was I think wondering about the art direction of landing zones like Arccorp if they would be fully explore-able (what they aren't so I clarified that); from sudden someone from this forum on a just freshly created account comes against me with one absolute wall of insults; of course hiding his face but shows me how to some here, it is personal.
Maybe instead of maligning a whole group of people, you could instead stick to your SC spin mode.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The 10 k$ / month / employee rule of thumb includes everything (including bonuses).
Have fun
I agree with people calling out this accusation of obsessiveness. Max you made over 2500 posts almost solely supporting Star Citizen on another game's forums in the span of 7 months or so. Many people would call that an obsessive defense of the game / company.
This is not actaully having a dig at you, I just believe that if you're going to make claims about others then you have to be willing to have the mirror held up to yourself. That's only fair.
If CIG was in such dire straits as some of you claim, you would be hearing about it. You cannot cite game delays as evidence in that regard, as EVERY game is delayed. The actuality is that most of those delays happen before the game is even publicized, but absolutely prior to a specific release date being given.
The truth is that there has been an ENORMOUS amount of work done on the back end of this game, and what is visible in these presentations is just the eye candy results of that work. I don't think most people really have a grasp of the technical challenges CIG has overcome or continues to face. Entire pieces were stripped out and redone, not because Roberts is a megalomaniac with an impossible vision, but because the work was just not very good. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.
Also, and specifically with SQ42, it was mentioned that it is near release, but the main reason for the delay was that it needed a bit more polish. It has also been stated repeatedly that the game will be release when it's ready, not before. Why then does CIG receive this criticism, when Blizzard does not for the same strict adherence to quality control? That's a double standard.
However, I will say that it does promote bad feelings and distrust to give release dates and then miss them, but it is not a sign of the apocalypse, but rather the eventualities of developing a project of this scale. Could CIG have done a better job? Sure, but so could every other developer. No one is perfect.
This is just like politics, but worse. Everyone has chosen their side, and no force, logical or emotional, will dissuade them from it.
I'm one of the undecided and I'll wait until a game is released or a company claims bankruptcy before I'll cast my vote.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
They did not.
They do not even have just a slice of the game actually working and stable enough to even show to the most easy crowd for them to please, CitizenCon. That is where they are at.
They choose to show the obviously duct tape patched together planet demo over showing where they are at with SQ42. And that is far away from just "needing a bit more polish".
Deal with it.
As for the money they've spend, the RSI has released multiple times the numbers of employees they have. There are also financial results for Foundry 42 available here:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08703814/filing-history
It's easy enough to make rought estimations on CIG's financial status when you have that much information available. Some of the doomsayers misuse those numbers, but making estimates is not idle speculation nor cognitive bias. It's math.
The old saying, 'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me' is very apropos here. No game play means: 1. the studio has bit off more than it can handle. 2. they game engine is a mess. 3. they are trying to make sure their investors don't pull and run. 4. they are fooling themselves.
This just says that crowdfunding people should be ware. It is just like taking money and flushing down the toilet.
Have fun
Hell, i don't think i have that many posts on my account here in over 10 years lol
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
I reckon its the later...
The delay is disappointing, but not the end of the world. I can't completely defend the seemingly continuous missing of deadlines (at worst though I believe, it is just poor marketing), but I do understand that delays are inevitable, and I would rather them take extra time to ensure the final product is awesome, instead of releasing a polished turd (at deadline) such as that of EA and ActiBlizz. You do know people hate that, and are quite vocal about it when it happens.
However, What is more likely is that Chris decided not to pull resources off of the game development to produce a demo, in order to ensure and maximize the completion of the full game. He's said that they are finishing one mission (presumptive demo) to release quality, and the others will follow suite.
From Saul Alinsky’s "Rules for Radicals"
No. 5) "Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions." ,
No. 12) "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”
Basically if all else fails, attack the person instead of their argument.
Being a fan is a thing, hate the game/company and still being willing to go as far as get banned from the place and keep posting under alt accounts and VPN's: that's a whole other level.
The terminology is whatever, it's releasing updates during the course of its development. I have no idea why you'd hit me with they don't update it with a follow-up comment about the patcher. O.o
It feels like it's something simple, until we get to see that to change Cryengine's default behaviors on both game loadings and patching (as the engine was never made to one MMO so it didn't need that), they did/are going to the core of the engine to make the new patcher possible, there's quite in-depth info on that on the Austin ATV (8:50 for the direct topic):