In short and to illustrate the underlying point, it'd be like Ford not allowing you to continue using "their" F150 unless you buy the new rollbar, RC lights, and shocks they just released for it. if you don't wish to buy those products and change the style and functionality of your truck, your just SOL about that F150, nor will Ford honor any part recalls unless you're up to date on the extras they've released for your model since you bought it in 2010.
It's completely different.
Software is an ever evolving product. I'm pretty certain (though someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Windows 95 is no longer supported by Microsoft. Or Mac OS 9.
Also, a player usually doesn't have to buy all the expansions in one fell swoop. Additionally, sales for expansions happen all the time.
I have currently been fooling around with WoW but never bought Legion or Pandaria. Don't know if I will (or what expansions are now included in the base game - maybe Pandaria is?)
Even with your car example, I'm guessing if you were to bring in a Model A into a Ford dealership and ask them to replace parts they would laugh at you.
Companies do have warranties but they are limited.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
In short and to illustrate the underlying point, it'd be like Ford not allowing you to continue using "their" F150 unless you buy the new rollbar, RC lights, and shocks they just released for it. if you don't wish to buy those products and change the style and functionality of your truck, your just SOL about that F150, nor will Ford honor any part recalls unless you're up to date on the extras they've released for your model since you bought it in 2010.
It's completely different.
Software is an ever evolving product. I'm pretty certain (though someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Windows 95 is no longer supported by Microsoft. Or Mac OS 9.
Also, a player usually doesn't have to buy all the expansions in one fell swoop. Additionally, sales for expansions happen all the time.
I have currently been fooling around with WoW but never bought Legion or Pandaria. Don't know if I will (or what expansions are now included in the base game - maybe Pandaria is?)
Even with your car example, I'm guessing if you were to bring in a Model A into a Ford dealership and ask them to replace parts they would laugh at you.
Companies do have warranties but they are limited.
The "content" of vanilla is still there. The mechanics might have changed, but the content is still there. So you are still allowed to use the modified vanilla....you do not need the new rollbar.
I'm going to say not really as they are offering a version of the game that cannot be played legitimately. While it may be unethical I don't see it as doing anything worse than the people who emulated games such as Star Wars Galaxies or Shadowbane. Or more closely, the game modders who reinvent earlier games inside later ones, such as The Elder Scrolls Renewal Project. <snip>
The key difference with SWG and Shadowbane is that the servers closed thereby providing people who (technically) bought the game a claim that they should be able to continue using something they bought.
The key difference with The Elder Scrolls Renewal Project is that it has Bethseda approval.
WoW hasn't closed; Nost didn't have Blizzard approval.
Maybe the defence that "todays WoW is not vanilla" would have worked but I don't believe so.
Unfortunately, that leaves players in a position where they have to pay more (for expansions) than they ever agreed to or was aware of when purchasing base WoW.
Even if you go purchase the base version today, it's not what was originally sold. So you have to be careful setting unintentional precedence here... A lawyer or judge could very well read your argument to say that manufacturers can deny product support in any form unless the customer buys and installs all upgrades to the product that the consumer wasn't even aware existed or was planned at the time of purchase. They can simply respond with "I'm sorry, but that product is no longer supported on its own. If you purchase this expansion, however, I'm sure I could assist you..."
In short and to illustrate the underlying point, it'd be like Ford not allowing you to continue using "their" F150 unless you buy the new rollbar, RC lights, and shocks they just released for it. if you don't wish to buy those products and change the style and functionality of your truck, your just SOL about that F150, nor will Ford honor any part recalls unless you're up to date on the extras they've released for your model since you bought it in 2010.
Except computer software is not a car. People keep trying to compare the two, but they are two different industries. Your analogy only works if Blizzard shut out everyone from playing wow that did not own Legion, thats not the case. Computer software is not a physical possession, its a service, an ongoing service, like a sattelite/Cable TV service, sure you can still buy a black and white TV set, but good luck finding an analogue signal to use it with. If you want to use the Cable TV service, you need hardware (That is the physical purchase)
But lets use the car analogy again, ignoring the fact that using an online software service is more like leasing a car than buying it, ignoring the fact that what you pay for is access to the product for its life time, not ownership of the product, so lets run with it, despite the fact it is a flawed comparison. What is actually happening here is that Ford have released a newer version of the F150, lets call it the F151, the 151 has an extra 100 BHP and a built in MP3 player.
They offer an upgrade package for existing drivers, and discount the F150, but they do not make any more F150's The only model they make is the F151. Some people continue to drive the F150, and then are unhappy that they can not race against 151's. However after a while they release the 152, they then give everyone who bought a 150 the engine from a 151 and fit it.
You can still play wow, its just that as with all things computer software related, there have been updates.
If this was an operating system or an office package, support for it would have ceased 3 years ago. You can still use it, but only in certain scenarios.
I hope Blizzard do release Legacy servers, but what happens after 2 years when all the legacy server content has been consumed? Do they push them all to TBC? are we talking progression servers like EQ 2 has then? I played Vanilla extensively and without new goals, it eventually becomes boring, theres only so many times you can clear Strat un-dead. If they release them, what patch do they ship with? Naxx?
However, while I hope for the people that want it Blizzard can make something happen, it does not alter the fact that all the people running EMU servers are engaging in activity that many laws consider theft. So If you pay for these servers then that means you are in receipt of stolen software.
That is a simple fact, you can ride the analogy train all the way but it doesnt alter the law.
This whole thing has now become about a few peoples egos.
Time to stop giving them their five minutes of fame, and go back to discussing the idea rather than the people behind it.
If Vanilla, legacy what ever you want to call them servers are going to happen, at this stage it will be in spite of not because of the Nostralius guys, whose amazing "Gesture" has pretty much ensured Blizz's copyright lawyers now HAVE to go after every old Emu server and in a very visible way.
I am not an Emu player my self, never have been, but what the Nost guys just did is to ensure that the Emu scene for wow is going to be destroyed over the next year to 18 months.
None of which will lead to a wow legacy service.
Baseless fear mongering, but do feel free to dig this up in 18 months when the private WoW server scene has been destroyed.
I'll gladly eat my words and admit I was wrong.
It's a hypothesis, by its very nature its 1 part guess 1 part logic. I am basing it upon my very limited knowledge of corporate IP laws. Blizz have to be seen to protect their IP or risk losing control of it, since Nost have very publicly given out the code to some one elses IP, Blizzards legal teams will be on alert looking for people taking advantage of it. While they (Blizz)might only want to target those who try to profit from it, the fact is others will get caught up in it.
If one high profile EMU gets shut down people will move, but if a multitude of them get shut down, people will start to consider why they bother investing time in them, once that happens, the player base of said servers will dwindle, as demand dwindles supply will, which in turn reduces competition so quality may drop.
I admit, its only 1 possible outcome, I hope I am wrong, not because I have any interest in playing a vanilla server, but because there are people that do, and since it doesnt affect me, I don't worry about it.
I stick by my opinion though, it was a dick move to release the source code that will do more harm than good.
Great discussion on Intellectual Property law, but I tend to see things more as Stizzled does as it pertains to this particular example of Nostalrius' actions.
While the law seems to side firmly with Blizzard, there's a gray area here when it comes to the moral implications of playing a game that is no longer offered by its owners. Blizzard owns the property but is not offering the service their fans desire. So some fans have decided to provide that service to themselves. I do and will continue to side with Nostalrius on this issue because I do not believe the spirit of the law, that was designed to make sure creators can profit from their work, is being honored by Blizzard's actions.
To expand on my big brother analogy from earlier in this thread, if Blizzard wants to sit on their older toys and slap everyone's hand away when they reach for them, I'll not defend their right to do so. They can pay their lawyers for that. Yes, they have a legal right to be dicks, but I'm glad Nostalrius gave them the finger ... in the most civil way possible, of course.
So when an individual feels the law is immoral or the spirit is not being met they can defy it? Is this a person by person basis. Is there some great think tank that approves. Who gets to decide when a law can be ignored. Or maybe as rational people do they work to change the laws, but obey them till said laws are changed. Instead of allowing people to pick and choose.
Laws have changed in the past, and are currently changing, that are making once illegal things legal. In most cases this turns out to be good for businesses and consumers alike. To act as if there's absolutely no ways in which IP laws could be changed to work better for everyone is just backwards thinking and doing nothing but holding everyone back.
While that's true I highly doubt laws will change that essentially allow others to create products/services off of another company's products without the permission of that very company.
I could potentially see a future where not for profit fan projects (and that's what I consider servers that operate under the same ideals as Nostalrius) could be allowed to operate without the need for permission if it could be absolutely proven that they A. operate entirely on a not for profit basis, B. have no negative effect on the IP holder's ability to make money off of their IP and C. have no negative effect on the integrity of the IP itself. Exactly how those things might be proven or what other caveats might be needed I'm not going to speculate on, I'll leave that up to the people who live in this hypothetical situation.
It might never happen. But, then, never say never.
As for everyone else basically stating: "The world is what it is and the laws are what they are, now be good and follow the rules." Well, I refuse, and I'm glad that plenty of people throughout history have chosen to do the same.
Easy to say till it is your throat that is being stomped to effect "change".
Laws have changed in the past, and are currently changing, that are making once illegal things legal. In most cases this turns out to be good for businesses and consumers alike. To act as if there's absolutely no ways in which IP laws could be changed to work better for everyone is just backwards thinking and doing nothing but holding everyone back.
While that's true I highly doubt laws will change that essentially allow others to create products/services off of another company's products without the permission of that very company.
I could potentially see a future where not for profit fan projects (and that's what I consider servers that operate under the same ideals as Nostalrius) could be allowed to operate without the need for permission if it could be absolutely proven that they A. operate entirely on a not for profit basis, B. have no negative effect on the IP holder's ability to make money off of their IP and C. have no negative effect on the integrity of the IP itself. Exactly how those things might be proven or what other caveats might be needed I'm not going to speculate on, I'll leave that up to the people who live in this hypothetical situation.
It might never happen. But, then, never say never.
As for everyone else basically stating: "The world is what it is and the laws are what they are, now be good and follow the rules." Well, I refuse, and I'm glad that plenty of people throughout history have chosen to do the same.
Easy to say till it is your throat that is being stomped to effect "change".
Them big plantation owners probably felt the same way back in the day. In the end it's society who decides what is right and what is wrong and that seems to change with the times.
I hardly see this as news. There are literally hundreds of private WOW servers and even a ton of 'vanilla' ones. I think this is much to do about nothing.
45 comments within 2 hours says it's news. I'd say it's "a lot of ado about something".
Just because it's controversial doesn't make it 'news'. We can argue about religion/politics, hence "a lot of ado about something". Doesn't work that way.
Great discussion on Intellectual Property law, but I tend to see things more as Stizzled does as it pertains to this particular example of Nostalrius' actions.
While the law seems to side firmly with Blizzard, there's a gray area here when it comes to the moral implications of playing a game that is no longer offered by its owners. Blizzard owns the property but is not offering the service their fans desire. So some fans have decided to provide that service to themselves. I do and will continue to side with Nostalrius on this issue because I do not believe the spirit of the law, that was designed to make sure creators can profit from their work, is being honored by Blizzard's actions.
To expand on my big brother analogy from earlier in this thread, if Blizzard wants to sit on their older toys and slap everyone's hand away when they reach for them, I'll not defend their right to do so. They can pay their lawyers for that. Yes, they have a legal right to be dicks, but I'm glad Nostalrius gave them the finger ... in the most civil way possible, of course.
So when an individual feels the law is immoral or the spirit is not being met they can defy it? Is this a person by person basis. Is there some great think tank that approves. Who gets to decide when a law can be ignored. Or maybe as rational people do they work to change the laws, but obey them till said laws are changed. Instead of allowing people to pick and choose.
Yeah I'm.. gonna stop you right there because that's not what the whole controversy is about. There's no doubt that the whole private server concept is essentially a form of IP theft. It's theft. Not that hard people: Blizzard still owns the IP. The IP is still active. It doesn't matter how much they change the game it's still theirs. The only possibility to slip through the legal cracks is if "Vanilla" WoW could be considered a form of abandonware which is - to be blunt - a whole different shitstorm entirely. That's not the question here.
The question is play is putting to question if it is moral and/or ethical for players who are not only willing but begging Activision-Blizzard to release the "Vanilla" version of WoW as a playable official server that they pay for to either create and/or play on private servers while still offering their money and support to A-B while they decide on how they want to handle the situation. It's not legal. Unless a case for abandonware can be not only made but declared in a court there's nothing legal about any of this.
Seriously people! This isn't that hard. Stop making blanket arguments/statements that lump together the moral and legal aspects of this. This topic isn't meant to fit under one friggin' roof! Unless the law changes it's theft plain and simple. Possessing the data needed to connect to/play on a private server is illegal. Hosting them is illegal. It's been this way for friggin' ages.
So let me say this again:
The issue is, and always has been, centered around the moral aspects of what's being done. Stealing food for starving children is still theft. It's morally wrong to steal but it's morally right to feed / save starving children. In this case it's morally wrong to steal the content created by Activison-Blizzard but, and here's the big question again because it bears repeating, how do you define the moral aspects of offering a company your money while temporarily creating your own service to substitute for what that company isn't providing.
That's friggin' it! However, guess what, this kind of questioning is how laws are changed. It's not about defying the law it's about moral dilemmas that have the potential to lead to the amendment of existing laws and/or the creation new ones. Stop debating about if this shit is legal or not and go back to putting forth your opinions on the moral aspects of what's going on.
Ford does update their F150s... Every year. And car manufacturers often copyright and/or patent designs that are, in essence, intellectual property. What's a design schematic if not the brainchild of the designer? It's Ford's creation, which is what a copyright gives someone sole ownership of: their creations.
What Ford doesn't do, however, is force you to buy the new model each year or risk not being able to repair your truck or even continue using it as is. They don't forbid 3rd parties from selling parts for older versions of their truck to keep them running (even though it DOES directly affect Ford's bottomline by limiting the number of potential new car buyers). They also don't sue garages offering repair, maintenance, or mod work for their antique or classic models because they've moved on from that version from a design standpoint. They don't even force me to buy the new versions to keep using the software installed in my car, nor do they sue me if I decide to replace that software with something else of my choosing. They simply revoke official support in the form of warranties and/or part manufacturing for that particular vehicle in my possession.
Someone else mentioned that software is more akin to leasing a car than buying one... And that's true. And software code is much cheaper, material-wise, than building a car. So I do see where the need for unique protections arise.
However, at least when we speak of private citizen recreational use, I find the extra protections seem, more oftem, misapplied or overblown than warranted, from what I've gleaned and experienced.
Folks attempting to paint the Nost team as the devil for freely offering a throwback version of a game is more worrisome, to me, than Nost freely offering a throwback version of a game. It says that people here seem to think someone at Blizzard is doing the same for us consumers during those earnings calls and business meetings all publishers/designers have. They're not. Manufacturers/publishers are and always will be in an inherently adversarial relationship with consumers where each wants to get the most from the other while spending the least amount of resources.
If, in essence, we're leasing the software... Let's start calling it that. Let's start advertising the new CoD available for monthly lease, minimum 1 year commitment, $60 down and only $10/month. Play that commercial (even IF you include all future expansions with an active lease).. It'd be interesting to see if the consumer base all goes "well I mean that's what we have been doing, they're just calling it what it is now." or if there isn't an eruption of "WTF is this?!?!" from consumers.
It's ironic that the old school box+sub was the most honest of all monetization schemes for software in general, yet it's been soundly rejected by consumers, forcing publishers to find new ways to convince players to spend. Folks don't like the idea of leasing their games very much.
Yes. Yes, they can, and they do. It happens every day ... a lot. This is the way the world is regardless of how anyone feels about it. Each person decides which laws they do and do not obey. Rational people do work to change the laws, but it's unreasonable to expect everyone to honor laws in ways they know are ridiculous in the mean time. To honor a law in a way you believe is wrong IS irrational.
There are a lot of people smoking marijuana in the United States even though it's Federally illegal. Now, some people think they should all be put in jail for this, but those people are fools for believing that. It doesn't take much reasoning to recognize that there's something wrong with the law, not the people involved, and I believe the same is true with our situation here with Blizzard and Nostalrius.
Also, Damnit Sedryn you beat me to it. I wanted to be the one to make that point! ; . ; Though I disagree with your wording, you do raise a point about the law: The law is made to be obeyed but it's also made to be broken and changed. If every law was absolute then, you know what, slavery would still be a thing in the United States! Alcohol would be still be banned too! But guess what - Because of that wonderful thing called a shift in popular opinion slavery was abolished and we have those glorious videos of drunk people doing stupid shit. Same thing happening to marijuana right now. It's illegal on a federal level yet because it's so widespread the laws are being changed to accommodate the populous' desires. Same thing happened with prohibition, slavery.. it's always a war and it's always something that sparks up and evolves because of those glorious moral disagreements.
Same thing happening here. People breaking the law because they believe it to be wrong/inadequate pushing a concept of morality that will inevitably polarize those that care enough to become involved until something somewhere breaks and things either change or stay the same.
That's friggin' it! However, guess what, this kind of questioning is how laws are changed. It's not about defying the law it's about moral dilemmas that have the potential to lead to the amendment of existing laws and/or the creation new ones. Stop debating about if this shit is legal or not and go back to putting forth your opinions on the moral aspects of what's going on.
It's more a matter of illegal competition in my eyes. Which is one major use of such laws, no one should have to compete against a product that is using their own intellectual property against them.
This is why 9 times out of 10 a court will side with an IP holder. Until WOW is no longer an ongoing service, any server (no matter the patch) that is using their world, their lore, etc... is offering a direct competitor to the live service that belongs to Blizzard, on top of that, they've illegally used the IP in the process. There's no real legal terms to argue in defense of NOS or any other private server. Hence why most operate in places outside of the law, those that don't, get a C/D notice or shutdown..
Post edited by Distopia on
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Laws have changed in the past, and are currently changing, that are making once illegal things legal. In most cases this turns out to be good for businesses and consumers alike. To act as if there's absolutely no ways in which IP laws could be changed to work better for everyone is just backwards thinking and doing nothing but holding everyone back.
While that's true I highly doubt laws will change that essentially allow others to create products/services off of another company's products without the permission of that very company.
I could potentially see a future where not for profit fan projects (and that's what I consider servers that operate under the same ideals as Nostalrius) could be allowed to operate without the need for permission if it could be absolutely proven that they A. operate entirely on a not for profit basis, B. have no negative effect on the IP holder's ability to make money off of their IP and C. have no negative effect on the integrity of the IP itself. Exactly how those things might be proven or what other caveats might be needed I'm not going to speculate on, I'll leave that up to the people who live in this hypothetical situation.
It might never happen. But, then, never say never.
As for everyone else basically stating: "The world is what it is and the laws are what they are, now be good and follow the rules." Well, I refuse, and I'm glad that plenty of people throughout history have chosen to do the same.
Easy to say till it is your throat that is being stomped to effect "change".
Them big plantation owners probably felt the same way back in the day. In the end it's society who decides what is right and what is wrong and that seems to change with the times.
As did the democratic party of Germany that the Nazi party assassinated, bullied, and threatened to take over the country for the better of German society....
Great discussion on Intellectual Property law, but I tend to see things more as Stizzled does as it pertains to this particular example of Nostalrius' actions.
While the law seems to side firmly with Blizzard, there's a gray area here when it comes to the moral implications of playing a game that is no longer offered by its owners. Blizzard owns the property but is not offering the service their fans desire. So some fans have decided to provide that service to themselves. I do and will continue to side with Nostalrius on this issue because I do not believe the spirit of the law, that was designed to make sure creators can profit from their work, is being honored by Blizzard's actions.
To expand on my big brother analogy from earlier in this thread, if Blizzard wants to sit on their older toys and slap everyone's hand away when they reach for them, I'll not defend their right to do so. They can pay their lawyers for that. Yes, they have a legal right to be dicks, but I'm glad Nostalrius gave them the finger ... in the most civil way possible, of course.
So when an individual feels the law is immoral or the spirit is not being met they can defy it? Is this a person by person basis. Is there some great think tank that approves. Who gets to decide when a law can be ignored. Or maybe as rational people do they work to change the laws, but obey them till said laws are changed. Instead of allowing people to pick and choose.
Yes. Yes, they can, and they do. It happens every day ... a lot. This is the way the world is regardless of how anyone feels about it. Each person decides which laws they do and do not obey. Rational people do work to change the laws, but it's unreasonable to expect everyone to honor laws in ways they know are ridiculous in the mean time. To honor a law in a way you believe is wrong IS irrational.
There are a lot of people smoking marijuana in the United States even though it's Federally illegal. Now, some people think they should all be put in jail for this, but those people are fools for believing that. It doesn't take much reasoning to recognize that there's something wrong with the law, not the people involved, and I believe the same is true with our situation here with Blizzard and Nostalrius.
But I do not feel sorry for them when they are caught and punished, nor do I think they are heroes.
Nostalrius is a game. It is not life and death. It is entitled children that do not understand that someone else gets to dictate the use of their property. Once property laws are gone society is gone.
“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the law of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." -John Adams
Late to the game on this thread - but who gives a crap what they did? Blizzard is never going to release a Vanilla server and EVEN IF THEY DID it would be complete crap. We all know it would be essentially what EQ and EQ2 have done, some time locked expansion bullcrap that just has the original WoW with the modern UI and all of the crap Blizzard has changed over the last decade. The best nostalgia based servers WILL ALWAYS BE player made. You can only hope that Blizzard will give up on trying to prosecute this crap eventually and let some of these servers be. There are still PLENTY out there as we speak that are just fine.
Great discussion on Intellectual Property law, but I tend to see things more as Stizzled does as it pertains to this particular example of Nostalrius' actions.
While the law seems to side firmly with Blizzard, there's a gray area here when it comes to the moral implications of playing a game that is no longer offered by its owners. Blizzard owns the property but is not offering the service their fans desire. So some fans have decided to provide that service to themselves. I do and will continue to side with Nostalrius on this issue because I do not believe the spirit of the law, that was designed to make sure creators can profit from their work, is being honored by Blizzard's actions.
To expand on my big brother analogy from earlier in this thread, if Blizzard wants to sit on their older toys and slap everyone's hand away when they reach for them, I'll not defend their right to do so. They can pay their lawyers for that. Yes, they have a legal right to be dicks, but I'm glad Nostalrius gave them the finger ... in the most civil way possible, of course.
So when an individual feels the law is immoral or the spirit is not being met they can defy it? Is this a person by person basis. Is there some great think tank that approves. Who gets to decide when a law can be ignored. Or maybe as rational people do they work to change the laws, but obey them till said laws are changed. Instead of allowing people to pick and choose.
Yeah I'm.. gonna stop you right there because that's not what the whole controversy is about. There's no doubt that the whole private server concept is essentially a form of IP theft. It's theft. Not that hard people: Blizzard still owns the IP. The IP is still active. It doesn't matter how much they change the game it's still theirs. The only possibility to slip through the legal cracks is if "Vanilla" WoW could be considered a form of abandonware which is - to be blunt - a whole different shitstorm entirely. That's not the question here.
The question is play is putting to question if it is moral and/or ethical for players who are not only willing but begging Activision-Blizzard to release the "Vanilla" version of WoW as a playable official server that they pay for to either create and/or play on private servers while still offering their money and support to A-B while they decide on how they want to handle the situation. It's not legal. Unless a case for abandonware can be not only made but declared in a court there's nothing legal about any of this.
Seriously people! This isn't that hard. Stop making blanket arguments/statements that lump together the moral and legal aspects of this. This topic isn't meant to fit under one friggin' roof! Unless the law changes it's theft plain and simple. Possessing the data needed to connect to/play on a private server is illegal. Hosting them is illegal. It's been this way for friggin' ages.
So let me say this again:
The issue is, and always has been, centered around the moral aspects of what's being done. Stealing food for starving children is still theft. It's morally wrong to steal but it's morally right to feed / save starving children. In this case it's morally wrong to steal the content created by Activison-Blizzard but, and here's the big question again because it bears repeating, how do you define the moral aspects of offering a company your money while temporarily creating your own service to substitute for what that company isn't providing.
That's friggin' it! However, guess what, this kind of questioning is how laws are changed. It's not about defying the law it's about moral dilemmas that have the potential to lead to the amendment of existing laws and/or the creation new ones. Stop debating about if this shit is legal or not and go back to putting forth your opinions on the moral aspects of what's going on.
If one piece of that artwork from Vanilla is still in use in current WoW your argument is null cause it is still in use. I would have more belief in your idea if Nost used its own artwork and IP on Blizzard's supposed abandonedware backbone.
But I do not feel sorry for them when they are caught and punished, nor do I think they are heroes.
Nostalrius is a game. It is not life and death. It is entitled children that do not understand that someone else gets to dictate the use of their property. Once property laws are gone society is gone.
“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the law of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." -John Adams
Lets see here: Your statement about not feeling sorry about them is opinion, good. The rest.. not so much and you misquoted John Adams. Good job there.
They're definitely not heroes but.. dude, barring Nost's rather childish threats and releasing of code (of which dozens of variants of said code have been released again and again since WoW hit the one year mark), the people in question are not entitled children either and there isn't anyone here trying to say the property laws need to be abolished. The law, the.. literal latter half of your John Adams quote, sees to it to protect that ideology and to punish those that break it. However, again, in the spirit of the law that governs the United States laws are meant to be amended to suit changing times. No one is talking about getting rid of property laws. At the most they're proposing the idea of very slightly amending them in an incredibly specific case to accommodate another shift in societal desires.
But I do not feel sorry for them when they are caught and punished, nor do I think they are heroes.
Nostalrius is a game. It is not life and death. It is entitled children that do not understand that someone else gets to dictate the use of their property. Once property laws are gone society is gone.
“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the law of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." -John Adams
Lets see here: Your statement about not feeling sorry about them is opinion, good. The rest.. not so much and you misquoted John Adams. Good job there.
They're definitely not heroes but.. dude, barring Nost's rather childish threats and releasing of code (of which dozens of variants of said code have been released again and again since WoW hit the one year mark), the people in question are not entitled children either and there isn't anyone here trying to say the property laws need to be abolished. The law, the.. literal latter half of your John Adams quote, sees to it to protect that ideology and to punish those that break it. However, again, in the spirit of the law that governs the United States laws are meant to be amended to suit changing times. No one is talking about getting rid of property laws. At the most they're proposing the idea of very slightly amending them in an incredibly specific case to accommodate another shift in societal desires.
No. The people here I am referring to are talking about ignoring laws they deem unfit instead of changing them. So yes people are talking about getting rid of property rights if those right interfere with their personal enjoyment it seems.
If one piece of that artwork from Vanilla is still in use in current WoW your argument is null cause it is still in use. I would have more belief in your idea if Nost used its own artwork and IP on Blizzard's supposed abandonedware backbone.
But.. I didn't make an argument for it being abandonware. I never said it was. I said, and I'm quoting directly here:
"The only possibility to slip through the legal cracks is if "Vanilla"
WoW could be considered a form of abandonware which is - to be blunt - a
whole different shitstorm entirely"
I stated it as the only possibility. I'll go far as to say at the moment the only remotely feasible (As remote as remote gets that is) possibility is for that to happen.
I did not once argue that the service Nost is offering is a play off using Abandonware. In fact I'm pretty sure I.. several times.. said what they're doing is blatantly illegal.
That's friggin' it! However, guess what, this kind of questioning is how laws are changed. It's not about defying the law it's about moral dilemmas that have the potential to lead to the amendment of existing laws and/or the creation new ones. Stop debating about if this shit is legal or not and go back to putting forth your opinions on the moral aspects of what's going on.
It's more a matter of illegal competition in my eyes. Which is one major use of such laws, no one should have to compete against a product that is using their intellectual property against them. This is why 9 times out of 10 a court will side with an IP holder. Until WOW is no longer an ongoing service any server (no matter the patch) that is using their world, their lore, etc... is offering a direct competitor to the live service that belongs to Blizzard, on top of that, they've illegally used the IP in the process. There's no real legal terms to argue in defense of NOS or any other private server. Hence why most operate in places outside of the law, those that don't get a C/D or shutdown..
Oh I wholeheartedly agree on that front! In fact that's pretty much what the whole of my statement alluded to. It's illegal. Pretty.. pretty damn blatantly illegal. The one thing I mentioned regarding abandonware is.. pretty much that one in a literal billion chance they might have to argue their case. Miracles aside? They screwed themselves pretty fiercely.
I mean.. releasing code -after- talking to the devs at Blizzard? They did that? Appearances point to it being a gigantic dick move.
Stupid, too. Nothing like going out in the world and figuratively shouting "Hey! We're doing illegal stuff here! Do what we demand!". I mean.. at what point in history did any group act like a bunch of dicks, then head out in public, declare they hate the law without an army of people supporting them (or, even, literal army) and actually accomplish anything beyond getting themselves punished?
... actually.. seriously? I'm kind of curious if that ever has happened before.
If one piece of that artwork from Vanilla is still in use in current WoW your argument is null cause it is still in use. I would have more belief in your idea if Nost used its own artwork and IP on Blizzard's supposed abandonedware backbone.
But.. I didn't make an argument for it being abandonware. I never said it was. I said, and I'm quoting directly here:
"The only possibility to slip through the legal cracks is if "Vanilla"
WoW could be considered a form of abandonware which is - to be blunt - a
whole different shitstorm entirely"
I stated it as the only possibility. I'll go far as to say at the moment the only remotely feasible (As remote as remote gets that is) possibility is for that to happen.
I did not once argue that the service Nost is offering is a play off using Abandonware. In fact I'm pretty sure I.. several times.. said what they're doing is blatantly illegal.
Well, yeah, the legality was never in question to begin with. It's blatantly illegal and, as stated by others, why it's usually done out of the United States.
I was raising the argument of the moral aspect of the whole situation in that it's in essence an ambiguous moral cluster**** with countless varying opinions. That, and raising the point that it's such situations that can ultimately lead to laws being changed if enough support is thrown behind them (Not that it's likely to happen in this case because there just aren't enough people who care).
Comments
Software is an ever evolving product. I'm pretty certain (though someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Windows 95 is no longer supported by Microsoft. Or Mac OS 9.
Also, a player usually doesn't have to buy all the expansions in one fell swoop. Additionally, sales for expansions happen all the time.
I have currently been fooling around with WoW but never bought Legion or Pandaria. Don't know if I will (or what expansions are now included in the base game - maybe Pandaria is?)
Even with your car example, I'm guessing if you were to bring in a Model A into a Ford dealership and ask them to replace parts they would laugh at you.
Companies do have warranties but they are limited.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The "content" of vanilla is still there. The mechanics might have changed, but the content is still there. So you are still allowed to use the modified vanilla....you do not need the new rollbar.
Except computer software is not a car. People keep trying to compare the two, but they are two different industries. Your analogy only works if Blizzard shut out everyone from playing wow that did not own Legion, thats not the case. Computer software is not a physical possession, its a service, an ongoing service, like a sattelite/Cable TV service, sure you can still buy a black and white TV set, but good luck finding an analogue signal to use it with. If you want to use the Cable TV service, you need hardware (That is the physical purchase)
But lets use the car analogy again, ignoring the fact that using an online software service is more like leasing a car than buying it, ignoring the fact that what you pay for is access to the product for its life time, not ownership of the product, so lets run with it, despite the fact it is a flawed comparison. What is actually happening here is that Ford have released a newer version of the F150, lets call it the F151, the 151 has an extra 100 BHP and a built in MP3 player.
They offer an upgrade package for existing drivers, and discount the F150, but they do not make any more F150's The only model they make is the F151. Some people continue to drive the F150, and then are unhappy that they can not race against 151's. However after a while they release the 152, they then give everyone who bought a 150 the engine from a 151 and fit it.
You can still play wow, its just that as with all things computer software related, there have been updates.
If this was an operating system or an office package, support for it would have ceased 3 years ago. You can still use it, but only in certain scenarios.
I hope Blizzard do release Legacy servers, but what happens after 2 years when all the legacy server content has been consumed? Do they push them all to TBC? are we talking progression servers like EQ 2 has then? I played Vanilla extensively and without new goals, it eventually becomes boring, theres only so many times you can clear Strat un-dead. If they release them, what patch do they ship with? Naxx?
However, while I hope for the people that want it Blizzard can make something happen, it does not alter the fact that all the people running EMU servers are engaging in activity that many laws consider theft. So If you pay for these servers then that means you are in receipt of stolen software.
That is a simple fact, you can ride the analogy train all the way but it doesnt alter the law.
It's a hypothesis, by its very nature its 1 part guess 1 part logic. I am basing it upon my very limited knowledge of corporate IP laws. Blizz have to be seen to protect their IP or risk losing control of it, since Nost have very publicly given out the code to some one elses IP, Blizzards legal teams will be on alert looking for people taking advantage of it. While they (Blizz)might only want to target those who try to profit from it, the fact is others will get caught up in it.
If one high profile EMU gets shut down people will move, but if a multitude of them get shut down, people will start to consider why they bother investing time in them, once that happens, the player base of said servers will dwindle, as demand dwindles supply will, which in turn reduces competition so quality may drop.
I admit, its only 1 possible outcome, I hope I am wrong, not because I have any interest in playing a vanilla server, but because there are people that do, and since it doesnt affect me, I don't worry about it.
I stick by my opinion though, it was a dick move to release the source code that will do more harm than good.
Easy to say till it is your throat that is being stomped to effect "change".
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
asdasdasd
The question is play is putting to question if it is moral and/or ethical for players who are not only willing but begging Activision-Blizzard to release the "Vanilla" version of WoW as a playable official server that they pay for to either create and/or play on private servers while still offering their money and support to A-B while they decide on how they want to handle the situation. It's not legal. Unless a case for abandonware can be not only made but declared in a court there's nothing legal about any of this.
Seriously people! This isn't that hard. Stop making blanket arguments/statements that lump together the moral and legal aspects of this. This topic isn't meant to fit under one friggin' roof! Unless the law changes it's theft plain and simple. Possessing the data needed to connect to/play on a private server is illegal. Hosting them is illegal. It's been this way for friggin' ages.
So let me say this again:
The issue is, and always has been, centered around the moral aspects of what's being done. Stealing food for starving children is still theft. It's morally wrong to steal but it's morally right to feed / save starving children.
In this case it's morally wrong to steal the content created by Activison-Blizzard but, and here's the big question again because it bears repeating, how do you define the moral aspects of offering a company your money while temporarily creating your own service to substitute for what that company isn't providing.
That's friggin' it! However, guess what, this kind of questioning is how laws are changed. It's not about defying the law it's about moral dilemmas that have the potential to lead to the amendment of existing laws and/or the creation new ones. Stop debating about if this shit is legal or not and go back to putting forth your opinions on the moral aspects of what's going on.
What Ford doesn't do, however, is force you to buy the new model each year or risk not being able to repair your truck or even continue using it as is. They don't forbid 3rd parties from selling parts for older versions of their truck to keep them running (even though it DOES directly affect Ford's bottomline by limiting the number of potential new car buyers). They also don't sue garages offering repair, maintenance, or mod work for their antique or classic models because they've moved on from that version from a design standpoint. They don't even force me to buy the new versions to keep using the software installed in my car, nor do they sue me if I decide to replace that software with something else of my choosing. They simply revoke official support in the form of warranties and/or part manufacturing for that particular vehicle in my possession.
Someone else mentioned that software is more akin to leasing a car than buying one... And that's true. And software code is much cheaper, material-wise, than building a car. So I do see where the need for unique protections arise.
However, at least when we speak of private citizen recreational use, I find the extra protections seem, more oftem, misapplied or overblown than warranted, from what I've gleaned and experienced.
Folks attempting to paint the Nost team as the devil for freely offering a throwback version of a game is more worrisome, to me, than Nost freely offering a throwback version of a game. It says that people here seem to think someone at Blizzard is doing the same for us consumers during those earnings calls and business meetings all publishers/designers have. They're not. Manufacturers/publishers are and always will be in an inherently adversarial relationship with consumers where each wants to get the most from the other while spending the least amount of resources.
If, in essence, we're leasing the software... Let's start calling it that. Let's start advertising the new CoD available for monthly lease, minimum 1 year commitment, $60 down and only $10/month. Play that commercial (even IF you include all future expansions with an active lease).. It'd be interesting to see if the consumer base all goes "well I mean that's what we have been doing, they're just calling it what it is now." or if there isn't an eruption of "WTF is this?!?!" from consumers.
It's ironic that the old school box+sub was the most honest of all monetization schemes for software in general, yet it's been soundly rejected by consumers, forcing publishers to find new ways to convince players to spend. Folks don't like the idea of leasing their games very much.
Though I disagree with your wording, you do raise a point about the law: The law is made to be obeyed but it's also made to be broken and changed. If every law was absolute then, you know what, slavery would still be a thing in the United States! Alcohol would be still be banned too! But guess what - Because of that wonderful thing called a shift in popular opinion slavery was abolished and we have those glorious videos of drunk people doing stupid shit. Same thing happening to marijuana right now. It's illegal on a federal level yet because it's so widespread the laws are being changed to accommodate the populous' desires. Same thing happened with prohibition, slavery.. it's always a war and it's always something that sparks up and evolves because of those glorious moral disagreements.
Same thing happening here. People breaking the law because they believe it to be wrong/inadequate pushing a concept of morality that will inevitably polarize those that care enough to become involved until something somewhere breaks and things either change or stay the same.
I love modern societies.
This is why 9 times out of 10 a court will side with an IP holder. Until WOW is no longer an ongoing service, any server (no matter the patch) that is using their world, their lore, etc... is offering a direct competitor to the live service that belongs to Blizzard, on top of that, they've illegally used the IP in the process. There's no real legal terms to argue in defense of NOS or any other private server. Hence why most operate in places outside of the law, those that don't, get a C/D notice or shutdown..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
But I do not feel sorry for them when they are caught and punished, nor do I think they are heroes.
Nostalrius is a game. It is not life and death. It is entitled children that do not understand that someone else gets to dictate the use of their property. Once property laws are gone society is gone.
“The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the law of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." -John Adams
If one piece of that artwork from Vanilla is still in use in current WoW your argument is null cause it is still in use. I would have more belief in your idea if Nost used its own artwork and IP on Blizzard's supposed abandonedware backbone.
The rest.. not so much and you misquoted John Adams. Good job there.
They're definitely not heroes but.. dude, barring Nost's rather childish threats and releasing of code (of which dozens of variants of said code have been released again and again since WoW hit the one year mark), the people in question are not entitled children either and there isn't anyone here trying to say the property laws need to be abolished. The law, the.. literal latter half of your John Adams quote, sees to it to protect that ideology and to punish those that break it. However, again, in the spirit of the law that governs the United States laws are meant to be amended to suit changing times. No one is talking about getting rid of property laws. At the most they're proposing the idea of very slightly amending them in an incredibly specific case to accommodate another shift in societal desires.
No. The people here I am referring to are talking about ignoring laws they deem unfit instead of changing them. So yes people are talking about getting rid of property rights if those right interfere with their personal enjoyment it seems.
"The only possibility to slip through the legal cracks is if "Vanilla" WoW could be considered a form of abandonware which is - to be blunt - a whole different shitstorm entirely"
I stated it as the only possibility. I'll go far as to say at the moment the only remotely feasible (As remote as remote gets that is) possibility is for that to happen.
I did not once argue that the service Nost is offering is a play off using Abandonware. In fact I'm pretty sure I.. several times.. said what they're doing is blatantly illegal.
I mean.. releasing code -after- talking to the devs at Blizzard? They did that? Appearances point to it being a gigantic dick move.
Stupid, too. Nothing like going out in the world and figuratively shouting "Hey! We're doing illegal stuff here! Do what we demand!". I mean.. at what point in history did any group act like a bunch of dicks, then head out in public, declare they hate the law without an army of people supporting them (or, even, literal army) and actually accomplish anything beyond getting themselves punished?
... actually.. seriously? I'm kind of curious if that ever has happened before.
then our discussion is done. It is illegal.
I was raising the argument of the moral aspect of the whole situation in that it's in essence an ambiguous moral cluster**** with countless varying opinions. That, and raising the point that it's such situations that can ultimately lead to laws being changed if enough support is thrown behind them (Not that it's likely to happen in this case because there just aren't enough people who care).