OP. Shadowbane called, they want you to come back... ^^ There are various reasons why games of that type are so niche. One is that it gets tiring, and annoying to always have to be looking over ones shoulder.all the damn time.
Second, no matter how "creative" the system that the Dev's come up with, the gankers/griefers always find some loop hole or another. That results in an endless war between the Dev's and such types, which consumes endless staff time/talent.
Hell, even CCP had to evolve Concord, and the high sec ROE to protect their business model. Thats simply the nature of a changing market.
And here we are in a predicament of why mmo's are struggling, why the current mmo generation game hops so often, why there's no retention, why people can't tell you the names of players they played with just a few minutes prior, why people feel so disconnected from the mmo they're playing...I could go on and on.
You could go on with those imaginary "facts" indeed... I've yet to see any reliable sources to those suppositions made by you and a few others. Still sounds more like your own wishful thinking presented as facts to me.
So in other words you're falling into the category of just wanting thing's to come easily by going off what you said and I will resort back to what I said in my last post... you're playing the wrong genre if investing any time is an issue which it sounds like it is for you(which is fine since a lot of us have jobs)
I was playing back during UO beta, so don't be too fast to "categorize" me. I'm quite immune to "old times nostalgia" though, that's possibly what separates us.
And no, I'm not playing the wrong genre, MMORPGs are just fine for me, have always been, but even more now they dropped the time wasting useless "features" to focus on actually playing the game.
"Imaginary"? Really? Maybe your age is starting to show itself? Anyone in their right mind who has been playing MMO's for years would know all these things that I mentioned. Its common knowledge. I am not going to sit here and throw banters back an forth with you. We won't get anywhere with them as theyre not productive.
I too, played back in the UO days so I have just as much experience as you do with the genre as a whole(Again I am not gonna get into a banter of who has what experience, blah blah blah)but the difference between us might be the fact that you don't see what I just mentioned up above ^, about the common knowledge of whats going on in the industry.
Yep, cause those "useless" features were not you playing the game....mmmk. Now, you're just having your hand held and have gotten accustomed to it and don't want to go back, which again, resorts back to my comment about you now being apart of the instant gratification crowd. There's nothing wrong with that at all, if thats the style of mmo you enjoy then so be it. More power to you but don't sit here and act like the current generation of mmos we have are quite amazing when in reality, they're not and there's reasons why the genre is stagnant right now.
Those were the old days, which, honestly speaking I miss the most. Nowadays games are getting less challenging. I'm not sure but in my opinion they are doing this to widen their market target age. Before there are quest that will take you hours to complete which other players on a younger age bracket find it very frustrating. Not to mention back in those days you can brag about your level because it will take you a lot of time to gain a level especially when you are almost at the level cap. But today after one server opens up you can find players at the cap level in a matter of a week or earlier. Well to cut the story short, we can only dream of yesterday and enjoy what today has to offer and hope for a better tomorrow.
Might be a bit offtopic but to be honest the instant gratification and everyone is a winner mentality is on a society level. When everyone gets to be a winner it devalues the winning.
None of the things I've mentioned are about having your hand held. - Camping a spot waiting for a spawn for days? Nothing difficult in that that, only tedious repetition. - Crafting 500 elemental arrows pressing the same 3 keys over and over again to finally be able to go hunt? Nothing difficult in that that, only tedious repetition. - Farming the same dungeon X times untils item Y drops? Nothing difficult in that that, only tedious repetition. - Corpse runs? Nothing difficult, only waste of time and tedious repetition. - Repetitive PK ganking? Nothing difficult, the victim has 0 chances, and for the attacker, it's only mashing a few buttons.
Seems to me like you project your own little opinion of what a MMORPG should be on what the whole genre should be. And you're a bit frustrated that the vast majority, including veterans, don't agree with you. I can understand that, it's always a bit annoying not to be right and be cheered by the crowd.
You just did the EXACT same thing you accused him of doing... LOL.
You guys are BOTH right and both wrong. The problem is that your arguments are the equivalent of arguing whether Chocolate or Vanilla is better. Some people like Chocolate. Some like Vanilla. Some like a mixed swirl. It doesn't matter if the "vast majority" of people likes one better than the other. Food companies don't care either. They make a variety to cater to all tastes. That's why you can even find things like http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/crocodile-egg-ice-cream-bestseller/story?id=24175666
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Please re-read my question which is copied below for ease of viewing:
FACTS? OK please link to me the FACT that players who like open world PvP are "psychopaths". I'll be waiting for such a finely researched FACT. You use that word, but I do not think it means what YOU think it means...
I'm not invested enough in this argument to go do your googling for you, but honestly, if you're truly curious about this and nor just trolling, this is a fairly easy point to research yourself:
Log into the open world PvP MMO of your choice. Go out unarmed and uhm.. collect flowers or something. The ask the first 5 people that kill you, whether they feel any remorse or empathy about the action. If you feel that 5 aren't enough critical mass, do it a hundred times, or a thousand. Then report back, I'd be fascinated to hear your findings.
Because someone would not feel remorse for playing a game and using his/her avatar to kill yours makes them a psychopath? Man... everyone that plays chess or checkers needs help pretty badly then.
Rather I would simply say that in my OPINION (not trying to spout as fact), anyone who feels like an attack on their pixel character is an attack on a real person should go see a shrink.
A lack of empathy or understanding of how the person you're interacting with feels as a result of your interaction with them is EXACTLY what defines psychopathic behaviour, yes.
An attack on a pixel character is not the same as an attack on a real person. But there are still quite often feelings involved, the fact that you seem to lack any comprehension of this only goes to prove the very point you're trying to argue against.
No... I would argue that the fact that you feel like part of the game (PvP) being used on your game piece.. is in some way something that hurts your feelings says a ton about YOU.
It's a GAME. The same as chess, checkers, monopoly. IMHO If you personally identify with your game piece YOU need to re-evaluate your involvement.
Not all games have open world PvP. There are literally HUNDREDS of safe space games with no chance of getting your game piece killed by another player. To join a game that has open world PvP as part of the game, and then complain that your feelings are hurt when someone takes your pixel pieces is just silly IMHO.
Actually in most games your "GAME" excuse may hold water, but not in a role playing game.
The whole point of a role playing game is to identify with your character, that some see fit to play their character as a murdering scumbag that would slit their own mother's throat to make a profit or "win" in any way they can is their problem, until it interferes in my game play to be able to play my character the way that I pay to play him/her/it.
Imo that's the conundrum that developers have always had, either they use in game controls that limit interaction, so that those players who have so little regard for their fellow players that they will abuse game mechanics just to annoy or drive those with different game styles from the game, or they let just one segment of the player population control the game, usually to its death.
The problem here is that developers normally are in the business to make a profit themselves, so of course they will choose to cater to the group of players that will offer them the best return. Should that turn out to be a base that wants a virtual fantasy world where they can interact with others around the world in a semi peaceful albeit dangerous world where they can plan to hunt down that evil dragon or armies of orcs/goblins/whatever that threaten their town/continent, or one where a group of players just want to murder each other for bragging rights, that's up to the developers to get it right.
I think there is room for both in the same game, but imo OW PVP is not the answer, at least not how most games have enabled it. There should never be the problem where one style of game play(PVE or PVP) feels like it can't achieve similiar rewards without being forced to play both styles, ime that just ends up driving players away.
The whole point of a role playing game is to identify with your character, that some see fit to play their character as a murdering scumbag that would slit their own mother's throat to make a profit or "win" in any way they can is their problem, until it interferes in my game play to be able to play my character the way that I pay to play him/her/it.
Then simply play one of the HUNDREDS of games that does not allow that as a mechanic...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm surprised that with as much experience as you all have with MMO's that you cannot separate difficulty from tedium. Let's say you created a game like EQ1 today.... no quest markers... week long spawns.... non instanced dungeons; it would flop... HARD. Why? Because people are soft, stupid or entitled? No.... we just don't have 12 hours a day to sit at a dungeon spawn <snip>
Don't know what has happened in your world where everyone universally has less time, but that change hasn't taken place over here in mine. Being 20 years older, I may personally have less time, but claiming those younger than me have suddenly been inundated with new life variables is a fallacy.
Tedium is just an excuse for people who want instant gratification. For the rest of us, we still enjoy the feeling of earning something that took a devotion of time.
Yes @Dullahan says people today - allowing in changes due to age - have just as much or as little as people 20 years ago.
However this is the only thing wrong with @Angier2758 's post; suggesting that people "don't play" "old style" games because they don't have the time.
They are "less likely" to play because they are normal. Tedium is tedium. And today there are alternatives to it. Alternatives to hanging around a camp for a rare spawn; waiting 15 minutes for a boat; running 20+ minutes across a zone to complete part of a quest; putting their name down for a raid they might get on in a few months.
"Normal" folks are just after fun not instant gratification (which isn't fun.). And if they want tedium - well there is usually enough of that in real life.
Analogy: If there are two cars about the same price one with suspension, air conditioning, tinted windows, comfortably seats, faster, greater range and cheaper to run vs. a old fashioned, slow, fuel guzzling boneshaker most people will go with comfort and value and speed. Not because they have gone soft or don't have time to drive at sub-30mph but because they are normal.
And as games have developed they have evolved; with publishers seeking to give more people more of what they believe(d) people want. Why if all these folks were just grinding away? Probably because they weren't they were leaving. SoE told us over a decade ago that churn in EQ1 was over 50%; DAoC much the same; WoW a couple of years back said 100M+ account meaning on average 10M or so people a year were leaving. Chaos not stability. So devs will have looked at how to improve retention.
And they will have looked at risk vs. reward. Aiming for some position on the risk reward see-saw. Whatever they decide(d) there will be unhappy people; people unhappy at the amount of rewards, others unhappy about the amount of risk.
Either way there will be unhappy players because we are different. And if devs go for "hard core" niche they are not after "main stream" and vice versa.
No matter how hard people try to escape the time element they dub as tedium, without it being incorporated in some way - even if that means mechanics that take longer to learn - the end result will be less compelling for most people. That is why we've observed longevity decreasing as streamlining has increased.
Sorry, but a lot of people found camping fun, exciting and often quite challenging. If you were merely "waiting around" while camping, you were doing something wrong. Both the social aspect as well as the necessary time devotion and subsequent item rarity, made the end result enjoyable for a lot of people.
Can those activities be harnessed again and made more engaging in the future? Absolutely. But throwing the baby out with the bathwater is just going to result in more flops and cash shops.
<snip>- the end result will be less compelling for most people. That is why we've observed longevity decreasing as streamlining has increased.<snip>
Developers want to make money. Developers are arguably best placed to know what "most" players like and what "most" don't. Long camps and grind are now unusual - topic of this thread. Ergo developers don't believe that "most" people like long camps.
If their metrics showed that is what most people wanted we would still have it.
Which is not to say that a niche game - with grind - couldn't be a hit. Wouldn't be guaranteed though either.
Yep, because back then, people didn't have lives, kids, families, jobs, etc, yep.
Nope... because back then, people didn't know better, and didn't have a choice since all available MMORPGs were based on terrible leveling grinds and tedious time wasting mechanics.
As a pre-UO veteran, there are things I definitely don't want to see back in any of the games I play. Camping spawns for hours or even days. Spending an hour crafting elemental arrows (Asheron's Call 1) pressing the same keys over and over again before being able to actually play. Spending weeks farming dungeons to get specific elemental protections before being able to start interesting raids. Corpse runs in the middle of the night because you accidentally died just before logging out, and arriving at work tired as hell. Repetitive PK ganking requiring to either log on your "main" if you had one or just stop playing. Etc, etc... so many "great" mechanics, really.
The only reason most did it back then is because it was the only way to have access to a MMORPG.
And here we are in a predicament of why mmo's are struggling, why the current mmo generation game hops so often, why there's no retention, why people can't tell you the names of players they played with just a few minutes prior, why people feel so disconnected from the mmo they're playing...I could go on and on.
We don't have to have spawn camping(even though a lot of us would enjoy it because it would allow us and force us to actually communicate with our fellow group mates, again going back to what I said about community) but what we currently have isn't any better. Corpse runs I actually wish would come back to some extent. Dying now, has no penalty. You're not afraid of the game world you're in, no sense of danger.
So in other words you're falling into the category of just wanting thing's to come easily by going off what you said and I will resort back to what I said in my last post... you're playing the wrong genre if investing any time is an issue which it sounds like it is for you(which is fine since a lot of us have jobs)
You can't really say old game have good retention, because back in the day there isn't much competition.
Not to mention mmorpg at that time is some thing new and refresh.
Look at Darkfall... it's like the opposite club. Hard hard hard. It's a dichotomy, either I play my little ponies in the main stream MMO production line, or a bitter painful game that punishes defeat to the fullest. I do enjoy darkfall because of the challenge, but I think there's room in the industry for some middle ground.
Nah what Darkfall does is what all "hardcore open world PvP" games do - they punish casual players and cater to cheater/exploiter and non-lifers.
Darkfall for example has an aimbot that always lands blow to the head for example - yes it works with both new versions of Darkfall.
There's nothing "hard hard hard" about open world PvP games - as they are always based unequal odds before the battle starts - due to gear, numbers or often exploits.
If you want something that purely takes skill - try MOBAs - go against top teams and see what "hard hard hard" is.
MOBA is pure skills.... ok....
What about a 1 v 1 RTS or even a fighting game?
I can't remember much aim target system multiplayer game on pc without aimbot.
Only in your mind. Old MMOs had better longevity. No amount of made up fictitious statistics that some developer of an android calculator is going to change that reality.
Only in your mind. Old MMOs had better longevity. No amount of made up fictitious statistics that some developer of an android calculator is going to change that reality.
Sorry.
Longevity and retention aren't the same thing.
Arguing better longevity is completely subjective.
Only in your mind. Old MMOs had better longevity. No amount of made up fictitious statistics that some developer of an android calculator is going to change that reality.
Sorry.
Longevity and retention aren't the same thing.
Arguing better longevity is completely subjective.
Actually longevity can be measured... but semantics aside.
Then they had better "retention". First gen mmos almost across the board trended up, increasing active players, and they did it with the subscription model and not f2p nickle and dime schemes.
Actually longevity can be measured... but semantics aside.
Then they had better "retention". First gen mmos almost across the board trended up, increasing active players, and they did it with the subscription model and not f2p nickle and dime schemes.
Claiming otherwise is pure fiction.
You originally stated older games had better longevity, not retention.
I agree older games took longer, but were they better for it? No.
In regard to PvE the game mechanics present in them were to shallow to warrant the longer experience. You didn't need that time to learn new skills as the games were simplistic.
The absence of quests in some of these older MMORPGs made the PvE leveling very dull.
The problem with older MMORPGs were that a lot of them weren't great games I'd like to play with others. They were average games made bearable by playing with others.
------------------------------ March 14, 2001 3:00 am ------------------------------
***EverQuest Turns Two***
Two years ago this Friday, EverQuest was launched, forever changing the course of online gaming. Today EverQuest boasts nearly 360,000 active subscribers, and a two-year retention rate of 65%. Peak usage tops 89,000 simultaneous users with average peak usage at roughly 87,000. The EverQuest community continues to grow daily.
See the last post on that link. I'd say 65% is pretty awesome.
Also check out this thread and the frustration of players in EQ. Read the rants think Brad's there too . Interesting perspective it is from what the then current players played and felt. People forget what it really was like. Read it and if you played EQ you will remember. If you click on the thread up top of link you can read all the responses. http://www.disinterest.org/resource/MUD-Dev/2000q4/015769.html
------------------------------ March 14, 2001 3:00 am ------------------------------
***EverQuest Turns Two***
Two years ago this Friday, EverQuest was launched, forever changing the course of online gaming. Today EverQuest boasts nearly 360,000 active subscribers, and a two-year retention rate of 65%. Peak usage tops 89,000 simultaneous users with average peak usage at roughly 87,000. The EverQuest community continues to grow daily.
See the last post on that link. I'd say 65% is pretty awesome.
Yeah now days most gamers play for a month then head on to the "oh shiny" of whatever is releasing next month........
Sorry JLP just edited I also wrote some other stuff in case you missed it. I am also aware of the fact that we had only 3 MMORPGs but read what Brad wrote . He said camping was never the design. Players camped developers never wanted that.
So much of the frustration caused by having to wait so long for a place in the group camping was something the players decided to do and I also waited hours for a spot because I played DPS. In fact Everquest cured me of ever playing a DPS in an MMORPG again.
For perspective what I posted was from the year 2000. So you're reading how players felt then. Let's bear all this mind 16 years later. While I will be playing Pantheon probably from day one I am not so excited about the other things this type of game creates either.
I was lucky to belong to a huge guild when I played but as you may have read about Rodcet in that link the original rant how smaller guilds were locked out of planes and big raids by bullying guilds. This is the main problem with EQ and the end game and here's hoping that Pantheon manages to avoid this.
Comments
Second, no matter how "creative" the system that the Dev's come up with, the gankers/griefers always find some loop hole or another. That results in an endless war between the Dev's and such types, which consumes endless staff time/talent.
Hell, even CCP had to evolve Concord, and the high sec ROE to protect their business model. Thats simply the nature of a changing market.
I too, played back in the UO days so I have just as much experience as you do with the genre as a whole(Again I am not gonna get into a banter of who has what experience, blah blah blah)but the difference between us might be the fact that you don't see what I just mentioned up above ^, about the common knowledge of whats going on in the industry.
Yep, cause those "useless" features were not you playing the game....mmmk. Now, you're just having your hand held and have gotten accustomed to it and don't want to go back, which again, resorts back to my comment about you now being apart of the instant gratification crowd. There's nothing wrong with that at all, if thats the style of mmo you enjoy then so be it. More power to you but don't sit here and act like the current generation of mmos we have are quite amazing when in reality, they're not and there's reasons why the genre is stagnant right now.
Oh, my some class can solo while others have trouble soloing -- have to change that.
Oh my, the tank can kill monster X in 5 minutes -- better lower his damage.
There is a choice a character can make that gimps him -- better take away that choice or balance it by making the stronger choice weaker.
------
I liked when you could actually do crazy things that could really gimp you or at least make you different.
I liked when characters were balanced only for if it had a use in a group as opposed to caring which class can solo or not.
I liked when exploration meant something.
----
It is a homoginization that kills the imagination.
You guys are BOTH right and both wrong. The problem is that your arguments are the equivalent of arguing whether Chocolate or Vanilla is better. Some people like Chocolate. Some like Vanilla. Some like a mixed swirl. It doesn't matter if the "vast majority" of people likes one better than the other. Food companies don't care either. They make a variety to cater to all tastes. That's why you can even find things like http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/crocodile-egg-ice-cream-bestseller/story?id=24175666
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The whole point of a role playing game is to identify with your character, that some see fit to play their character as a murdering scumbag that would slit their own mother's throat to make a profit or "win" in any way they can is their problem, until it interferes in my game play to be able to play my character the way that I pay to play him/her/it.
Imo that's the conundrum that developers have always had, either they use in game controls that limit interaction, so that those players who have so little regard for their fellow players that they will abuse game mechanics just to annoy or drive those with different game styles from the game, or they let just one segment of the player population control the game, usually to its death.
The problem here is that developers normally are in the business to make a profit themselves, so of course they will choose to cater to the group of players that will offer them the best return. Should that turn out to be a base that wants a virtual fantasy world where they can interact with others around the world in a semi peaceful albeit dangerous world where they can plan to hunt down that evil dragon or armies of orcs/goblins/whatever that threaten their town/continent, or one where a group of players just want to murder each other for bragging rights, that's up to the developers to get it right.
I think there is room for both in the same game, but imo OW PVP is not the answer, at least not how most games have enabled it. There should never be the problem where one style of game play(PVE or PVP) feels like it can't achieve similiar rewards without being forced to play both styles, ime that just ends up driving players away.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
However this is the only thing wrong with @Angier2758 's post; suggesting that people "don't play" "old style" games because they don't have the time.
They are "less likely" to play because they are normal. Tedium is tedium. And today there are alternatives to it. Alternatives to hanging around a camp for a rare spawn; waiting 15 minutes for a boat; running 20+ minutes across a zone to complete part of a quest; putting their name down for a raid they might get on in a few months.
"Normal" folks are just after fun not instant gratification (which isn't fun.). And if they want tedium - well there is usually enough of that in real life.
Analogy: If there are two cars about the same price one with suspension, air conditioning, tinted windows, comfortably seats, faster, greater range and cheaper to run vs. a old fashioned, slow, fuel guzzling boneshaker most people will go with comfort and value and speed. Not because they have gone soft or don't have time to drive at sub-30mph but because they are normal.
And as games have developed they have evolved; with publishers seeking to give more people more of what they believe(d) people want. Why if all these folks were just grinding away? Probably because they weren't they were leaving. SoE told us over a decade ago that churn in EQ1 was over 50%; DAoC much the same; WoW a couple of years back said 100M+ account meaning on average 10M or so people a year were leaving. Chaos not stability. So devs will have looked at how to improve retention.
And they will have looked at risk vs. reward. Aiming for some position on the risk reward see-saw. Whatever they decide(d) there will be unhappy people; people unhappy at the amount of rewards, others unhappy about the amount of risk.
Either way there will be unhappy players because we are different. And if devs go for "hard core" niche they are not after "main stream" and vice versa.
Sorry, but a lot of people found camping fun, exciting and often quite challenging. If you were merely "waiting around" while camping, you were doing something wrong. Both the social aspect as well as the necessary time devotion and subsequent item rarity, made the end result enjoyable for a lot of people.
Can those activities be harnessed again and made more engaging in the future? Absolutely. But throwing the baby out with the bathwater is just going to result in more flops and cash shops.
If their metrics showed that is what most people wanted we would still have it.
Which is not to say that a niche game - with grind - couldn't be a hit. Wouldn't be guaranteed though either.
Not to mention mmorpg at that time is some thing new and refresh.
Sorry.
Arguing better longevity is completely subjective.
Then they had better "retention". First gen mmos almost across the board trended up, increasing active players, and they did it with the subscription model and not f2p nickle and dime schemes.
Claiming otherwise is pure fiction.
I agree older games took longer, but were they better for it? No.
In regard to PvE the game mechanics present in them were to shallow to warrant the longer experience. You didn't need that time to learn new skills as the games were simplistic.
The absence of quests in some of these older MMORPGs made the PvE leveling very dull.
The problem with older MMORPGs were that a lot of them weren't great games I'd like to play with others. They were average games made bearable by playing with others.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-107647.html
------------------------------
March 14, 2001 3:00 am
------------------------------
***EverQuest Turns Two***
Two years ago this Friday, EverQuest was launched, forever changing the
course of online gaming. Today EverQuest boasts nearly 360,000 active
subscribers, and a two-year retention rate of 65%. Peak usage tops
89,000 simultaneous users with average peak usage at roughly 87,000.
The EverQuest community continues to grow daily.
See the last post on that link. I'd say 65% is pretty awesome.
Also check out this thread and the frustration of players in EQ. Read the rants think Brad's there too . Interesting perspective it is from what the then current players played and felt. People forget what it really was like. Read it and if you played EQ you will remember. If you click on the thread up top of link you can read all the responses.
http://www.disinterest.org/resource/MUD-Dev/2000q4/015769.html
Brad post on the rant
http://www.disinterest.org/resource/MUD-Dev/2000q4/015933.html
Camping dungeons was not their design.
Yeah now days most gamers play for a month then head on to the "oh shiny" of whatever is releasing next month........
So much of the frustration caused by having to wait so long for a place in the group camping was something the players decided to do and I also waited hours for a spot because I played DPS. In fact Everquest cured me of ever playing a DPS in an MMORPG again.
For perspective what I posted was from the year 2000. So you're reading how players felt then. Let's bear all this mind 16 years later. While I will be playing Pantheon probably from day one I am not so excited about the other things this type of game creates either.