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Care Bears Can Kill (If PVP was Fair and Competitive)
cantankerousmage
Member UncommonPosts: 992
Open pvp is only sustainable if there are
consequences for behaving like a wolf or a criminal. Not that people
shouldn't be able to play villains. In fact, I believe they should be.
But it shouldn't be an easy and risk free practice to go around preying
on weaklings and noobs. If real effort isn't put into making pvp fair
and competitive, it usually dissolves into some sort of gankfest. Pvp
in real life may not be fair, but most mmorpgs are far from any realistic
simulation of real life. And if combat in pvp was really supposed to be
like real life, my character could kill anyone else's character with
one well-placed hit. And that character would stay dead. I could hide an archer up some tree or in the window of an abandoned building and snipe passer-byes all day long.
A villain usually has better things to do then going around waylaying random people, like seeking some kind of ultimate power, plotting world domination, overthrowing a kingdom, or seeking revenge against a hated foe.
The kind of people that like to rob and/or kill for pleasure, profit, or no reason at all are usually described as thugs, gangsters, serial killers, or psychopaths. There are laws and police in place to attempt to restrain the activities of such people. People should be allowed to behave like that if they want to in a game, as villains often need minions to do their dirty work. But the way pvp is implemented in most games, the kind of criminal, predatory behavior often associated with bullies is not only usually without meaningful consequence, but even encouraged and rewarded.
Until games are actually some kind of logical and realistic representation of life, I believe pvp should be considered more of a sport than anything else. Sports have rules in order to attempt to make them fair. People still try to cheat, and sometimes succeed in doing so without getting caught, but few to none would want to play them or watch them if there were no rules at all. I don't think anyone would find a game between Major League baseball players and Little Leaguers to be interesting, unless, perhaps, they are sadistic in some way.
EDIT: Unless it is in self-defense, in the line of duty for a police officer (except in cases where the perpetrator is unarmed or not fighting back), or occurs during legal warfare, killing people is generally considered a crime. I do believe games should reflect this principle. But, "oh, come on, it's just a game", someone may say? That may very well be, but if that's a person's attitude, he or she (usually he) shouldn't expect me or most other reasonable people to want to participate in the predatory fantasies of the gankers.A villain usually has better things to do then going around waylaying random people, like seeking some kind of ultimate power, plotting world domination, overthrowing a kingdom, or seeking revenge against a hated foe.
The kind of people that like to rob and/or kill for pleasure, profit, or no reason at all are usually described as thugs, gangsters, serial killers, or psychopaths. There are laws and police in place to attempt to restrain the activities of such people. People should be allowed to behave like that if they want to in a game, as villains often need minions to do their dirty work. But the way pvp is implemented in most games, the kind of criminal, predatory behavior often associated with bullies is not only usually without meaningful consequence, but even encouraged and rewarded.
Until games are actually some kind of logical and realistic representation of life, I believe pvp should be considered more of a sport than anything else. Sports have rules in order to attempt to make them fair. People still try to cheat, and sometimes succeed in doing so without getting caught, but few to none would want to play them or watch them if there were no rules at all. I don't think anyone would find a game between Major League baseball players and Little Leaguers to be interesting, unless, perhaps, they are sadistic in some way.
EDIT #2: My definition of Ganker - Those who aren't really looking for a challenge in PvP and just want to prey on weaklings and noobs. Or people that will repeatedly kill the same player-character for no reason other than that they're there (or someone who has zero chance of defeating them in any case - and usually the person won't have much opportunity for revenge in the near future). I think killing should have a purpose beyond the pure enjoyment of killing. But maybe that's just me.
My definition of Unfair in MMORPG PvP:
Losing to someone just because they've played longer, played more hours, or paid more money and have thus become far more powerful than I can hope to be without playing for months or years or paying an equal amount of money. I can compete with people's wallets all day long in the real world if I like. If I haven't played a sport as long as someone else, I probably won't be placed in the same league as them. Unless I am sort of genius or prodigy. To be more precise, I don't want to be an ant fighting against gods because I haven't played as long as someone else. There are advantages one might gain by spending more time with any particular activity, just like in the real world, but they shouldn't make a person unbeatable. I should have a chance of moving up from the Minor Leagues to the Major Leagues rapidly if I have the talent and the skill. Baseball players aren't allowed to use corked bats in games, and they certainly wouldn't be able to use a magical bat that always hit a home run every time they swung at a pitch.
Now if someone outsmarts me or outnumbers me*, fine, that can happen. Wandering out in the wilderness alone is not the greatest idea most of the time.
*Or maneuvers better or plans better, whatever. Basically I want things like wits and skill, tactics and teamwork to play a larger part in PvP than anything else.
Now if someone outsmarts me or outnumbers me*, fine, that can happen. Wandering out in the wilderness alone is not the greatest idea most of the time.
*Or maneuvers better or plans better, whatever. Basically I want things like wits and skill, tactics and teamwork to play a larger part in PvP than anything else.
EDIT #3: My goal with this thread is exploring the possibilities of how an mmorpg could be made into a true role-playing game similar to pencil-and-paper rpgs, without the need for incredibly advanced artificial intelligence or virtual reality. I believe open world PvP is an essential element in doing so. Realm vs Realm as opposed to a free-for-all (though the community a player belongs to doesn't necessarily need to be a kingdom, there can be smaller and larger units), but people could choose to leave their community as well. There are more details and ideas in my other posts. And in the posts of others.
Post edited by cantankerousmage on
Comments
I'm sure that played a big part too, but I'm a fan of death penalties in games. The first mmorpg I played was Runes of Magic. A crappy game overall, but I lost a lot experience when I died, which made it so I didn't really want to die, was sometimes actually afraid to die, especially when that experience debt started to add up. I read somewhere that the removal of or lessening of the (stat loss?) death penalty in UO was also a major reason for its eventual downfall. I wasn't playing mmorpgs back then (even though I certainly old enough), so I can't say with 100% certainty what went wrong with that game.
I understand. I played a couple different MUDs before I played mmorpgs.
FYI,
the mmogchart guy was pulling numbers out of his butt.
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FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Not only that, but they would never of made the change without lots of feedback from customers who were leaving because of the terrible way they handled pvp.
Red people running around naked, losing nothing but a bag with a few reagents, or a sword or bow and arrows, if they died going on killing spree's was hurting the game quite badly.
These "police yourselves" games rarely work out like the dev's and others like to think in the end. And saying that it hurt UO to create a safe world is nonsense.
It hurt the naked red players that were there to ruin others game fun. It was as simple as go to a portal and enter to go to the other world and have some pvp action. Only issue was that people that were there were prepared to fight back not just be a victim like in the original one world UO.
Not much fun for the so called "Red pvpers" when they have to fight others that are prepared.
As to the OP...as i stated above, police yourselves type games mostly fail, as to the policing part, in the end. They turn into worlds of anarchy or armed camps, where you stay in large groups to do much.
The worst part of it though, is that there is rarely enough money to do the games right, as in, you need to really make and keep separate rule systems for PVE players and PVP players.
But most dev's try to balance them with one set of rules and that breeds the constant boost and nerf type of development that gets very frustrating for a lot of people. You constantly are fighting the rules to get them to apply to both game play styles. Very hard to do and i can not think of many games that have been able to pull that off in full pvp games.
I agree. Most pvpers do not want to compete. They want to prey on weaklings and noobs. They do not want a fair and competitive system. But if we ever want our mmorpgs to be anything close to true role-playing games, I do believe we need to find a way to make open world pvp work in a way that will appeal to more than a small minority of players. And for that, we need systems and rules that will facilitate making pking a crime with consequences. In a way that all the players in the virtual world will view it as such. It is actually easier to be evil than to be good in the real world. Evil people don't care about morality, integrity, or honor (though there is the rare case of a villain with some kind of honor code), so they are willing to do whatever it takes to get to the top. That's why criminals and tyrants usually end up running things. Decent people, who try to be good, don't normally seek power unless or until they are forced to in order to combat the evil people who are oppressing them. That's why the hero in most stories usually has an uphill battle when he or she decides to stop a villain from accomplishing goals or to remove a villain from power. But if we want to make a game that's fun to play, we have to make it just as hard or even harder to be evil than it is to be good. Of course, that's just my opinion.
This isn't directed toward you personally, but I added this to my original post:
I am tired of being coddled in virtual worlds, that's why I want to make pvp actually work in a way that's fun for the majority of people.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
NPCs can play a part in enforcing laws in games, this is true. Besides, the garrisons in such places as towns and cities, there can even be NPC units that patrol the regions close to their settlements. Our characters can have a lot more freedom as long as there are meaningful consequences when they are caught committing crimes or engaging in any sort of illegal activity. Being imprisoned or even executed is possible. After all, if one character is rotting in a dungeon cell for certain period of time, people can usually play another character. Not saying we need to go that far, necessarily, but it's not as if it isn't possible. We are already allowed to kill each other's characters in games. What worse can we do to a person's character besides that? (Okay, certain things like rape, torture, and other really heinous acts shouldn't be permitted.)
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I want things like a rogue who is able to pickpockets and pick locks. I want him or her to be able to get arrested or run out of town if he or she gets caught. Maybe even wanted posters on building walls. Bounty hunters. Being able to hire assassins. The possibility of trying to break your partner-in-crime out of jail. And the ability for my most likely more law-abiding character to cause trouble for the deviants.
Of course those are the people who get their kicks from killing noobs that can't fight back, I have some names for those people as well. If there is no challenge then the games mechanics just suck
If care bears are the people that hate PvP and enjoy it then no, they wont kill other players because they don't bother entering PvP zones or games with full PvP. If they are people who think the huge powergap in most MMOs suck then yes, they can kill and probably does it better then the people who prefer targeting people who can't fight back.
I agree with what you're saying. I don't call people carebears, but I've been called it just because I asked in zone chat in a game if there are any mmorpgs with fair and competitive pvp, or mentioned that there's not much effort put into making it that way in mmorpgs. Something to that effect.
I'm not into defeating or dominating someone that has no chance of winning against me.
What's wrong is people expect it to become mainstream which it never will.
I don't expect that a gankfest game will ever be mainstream. But I'm interested in making open world pvp that doesn't become a gankfest.
Realism/Authentic Feeling World - The idea that someone could go on a psychopathic murdering spree and then wander around the streets of a lawful town is laughable. Yeah... not going to happen. But there are cannibalistic tribes in certain areas of the world that behave very like ganker guilds do in open world PvP games. The difference is people have the ability to choose where they go. You have very low chances of being randomly gunned down if you choose to go to safe areas in safe towns. And "declaring war" is not going to allow you to gun someone down in the middle of town and expect the police to just stand back and do nothing.
A more real / authentic feeling game is going to have proper consequences in some areas of the world, and utterly lawlessness in others. What areas are what way would largely be decided by the culture of the area.
Fun - Some people are going to want complete and utter security with no chance of every being subjected to non-consensual PvP. Some people want complete and utter lawlessness and to be able to kill whoever they want, wherever they want, for any reason they want. Making areas of the game that cater to both players and other areas that cater to players somewhere between these two extremes is the most logical solution.
You go to the lawful-good human lands and it's the carebear capital of your dreams. You go to the orcish wastelands and you may end up butchered and cooked into a stew just for breathing and not being affiliated with whatever orc clan happened across you.
"Wait.. what? No, I don't play PvP games but I know for a fact that PvP is linked to mental issues"
"What was that? No... I'm not medically trained but if you play game you hurt another character you're mental"
"Well, two other people agreed with me so I must be saying something right"
This thread lol
I think people who play PvP games just to camp newbs in starter areas and find ways to pervert the game mechanics so they can hunt down the people who choose to live in the safer areas are classic school yard bullies, with whatever mental problems being a bully entails. And PvP games need to stop pretending they are part of the "hardcore" community and catering to them in any way whatsoever. They are simply the people who couldn't hack it in the more competitive PvP found in the areas of game like EVE's Wormhole and Null Sec space.
They are bottom feeders that drive away people from PvP games and create the kneejerk reactions most carebears give when they hear the phrase "Open World PvP." Game developers need to stop tolerating them, and players of Open World PvP games need to stop tolerating them if we ever want to see our genre of choice succeed.
The day we as a community realize that suicide ganking and wardec corporations offer no positive benefits to the PvP community whatsoever is the day we start to see player retention increase in the games we love, and the increased revenue benefiting all aspects of the game.
I don't think it's ever too late to create a game that can restore a positive image to Open World PvP in all but the eyes of the most diehard carebears but we can never do it by succumbing the mistakes that have cast almost all such games in an extremely negative light to what is unfortunately a majority of the gaming community.
That's what people don't understand, camping the starting area's is not what Open World PvP is about but to 99% of people who don't play PvP games this is all they ever talk about. That's all I ever see when ever threads like this pop up...
"I got ganked by somebody with mental issues" or it could just be that the PvP game you're playing is dead and the person that ganked you was bored loser who couldn't find a fight.
Whatever works for you
Saying "I don't like PvP"... totally valid
Projecting all these personality traits onto PvPers is just silly.
Some of these posts sound like a victim hotline.
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I always assume taking their time is the best route. That's what is stolen usually in PvP games as they killed and robbed. If you randomly kill you can have NPC bounty hunters hired to randomly attack you and imprison you for a time.
I don't consider myself to be a carebear. But I would like to be able to play something of a shepherd who guards the flock against the flock against the wolves. Not currently possible in any mmorpgs I've tried (at least not without playing the game for a long time in a sub or spending a lot of money in free-to-play).
I want progression to be completely divorced from gear. In a fantasy world, magic should be rare, like it is in most novels and movies. And there should be a limit to how much power once can gain from enchanted items or equipment (in old school D&D it was +1 to +5). Get rid of being able to become a god altogether. Maybe get rid of levels and the ability to increase skills beyond the range of possible human capability. In old school D&D, you could only die so many times. Every time you got resurrected, you lost a Constitution point. What if you couldn't resurrect yourself and had to rely on friends or community members to bring your corpse to a priest who could raise you? What if it wasn't necessarily easy to find someone or something who could do that? Could make it so that only one account is allowed per machine code, two characters per account, both must be created into the same community. You can only roll your ability scores once during character creation, and you can't delete a character once you make it. If one of your characters leaves his or her community, the other character on the account could have some sort of icon over their character which told the members of the community that this character is a possible spy or not to be trusted. There could be the option of joining another community after leaving the starting community, but that should be a very difficult process. Gaining the trust of foreigners usually was in the past.
Maybe the introduction/tutorial to the game is your character growing up and choosing which skills and abilities to train their limited pool of points in and learning how to use them before he or she enters the community in the game.
Instead of progression being tied to levels and gear and skills, progression could be tied to the growth and expansion of the community to which the character belongs. And or perpetuating their family line (which would be the only way to progress for players who choose to abandon their communites. Of course, amassing wealth, property, resources, knowledge, titles, and personal connections could play a role. Player-characters could choose to marry npcs or other player-characters and have children. Once their original character is dead, they could play one of the children.
I'm sick and tired of mmorpgs where we just amass power for power's sake. I'm not a hamster, I don't like running on hamster wheels.
EDIT: I suppose you could train some skills or abilities through the repetition of related activities, just as you can in real life, but there should certainly be a limit to it. And there should be a limit to how many things one character can master. Death should also carry a temporary reduction or penalty to these stats, if the character manages to get resurrected.