If I dont have some sort of leveling incentive, I tend to lose interest in the game very quickly..... Even in a game like WoW with lots to do at end game, I get bored very quickly when there is no level progression.
I believe leveling a character itself should be removed from the MMO genre and replaced with a system where you level up the character's active/passive skills, equipment/weapons, stat points, etc. When I see character's having to level up, it limits players to trying different skills, different kinds of equipment sets, and changing up their stats. Most of the MMOs now of days have pre-located stats, locked equipment/weapons for certain classes and bound to using certain skills. I'd like to see more open options for players to become whoever they want to be.
This is actually something present in some extent in a lot of sandbox titles. EVE, Darkfall, Wurm, Mortal etc. Even in Runescape your character level is just an estimation of strength based on your combat skills that you level individually as opposed to your abilities being based on your level.
I do agree it's a much more engaging system for me personally then class based RPGs can offer. Even a hybrid between the class system and skill based system such as ArcheAge is preferable.
However making this change doesn't really deal with the issue of level grinding. In fact if anything it intensifies it by having you level every aspect of your character as opposed to a single character once.
It still would have to be implemented alongside other systems such as horizontal progression to deal with the kind of problems this topic is concerned with.
Because without things to grind for, MMO's die. PvP is the expectation.
Peeps blame the evil grind like there's any way on MMO is going to be able to provide PvE-wise content to the player for years without a grinding approach to progression. >.>
True but there is less grind and more grind and grinding that hurts the game balance more then others. For instance creating a guild city takes grinding but while it will be beneficial to have it does not mess up the game balance as much as 20 tiers of raid gear.
Guildwars for instance had comparible little grinding and while it had more PvPers then PvEers it still had plenty of long term PvE players. You certainly grinded for stuff there but not for game breaking things, most PvEers there I know played it because it was challenging and fun.
A MMO with zero grind that wasn't FPS based would fail but too much grind also kills a MMO. A MMO needs a balanced grind and it also needs to hide the grind as much as possible. There is a limit to how many times playing the exact same dungeon is fun just as replacing your gear to something better gets less fun if you do it every 5 minutes.
What players need for the game to keep being fun is long term goals instead of short term and that will include grind, but you need to hide that so it isn't in the players face all the time.
Killing 10 000 skeletons is a horrible grind but defeating 10 tough bosses feels a lot better. Same thing with needing 1000 cured leather to make an epic belt instead of a piece from something really hard to defeat.
I get confused as to why games go out their way to include systems only to put time in making the same system watered down. Like having 50 levels but can be done in days. Why not just eliminate the disparity and do away with funneled content and design decision allowing that to work?
For example WoW put in 10 levels in the latest expansion but made everything scale. What is the point in levels but to justify a grind?
I get confused as to why games go out their way to include systems only to put time in making the same system watered down. Like having 50 levels but can be done in days. Why not just eliminate the disparity and do away with funneled content and design decision allowing that to work?
For example WoW put in 10 levels in the latest expansion but made everything scale. What is the point in levels but to justify a grind?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Why? The number of levels is just a superficial number in a game. I don't see why 200 levels is more fun then 20, what matters is the time it takes to max out a character (I agree that you usually level way too fast in MMOs but grinding sucks if you percieve it as grind. If it is fun it ain't really a grind or so well hidden it doesn't matter what it is).
Having levels in a game is just a tired old-school mechanic that needs to die.
Then what is the alternative? Character progression is essential to RPG gameplay. Please enlighten us.
You already answered your own question. Horizontal Progression. In the original Guild Wars you hit 20 with the best gear fairly fast then spend the rest of the game and all the expansions afterward hunting down equal but different skills and cool new armor with the same stats.
All of which made GW1 of absolutely no interest after my first character got to level 20.
Dreadful design to a PVE progression junkie like me, EVE's design was far more to my liking.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have played horizontal and vertical levelling games and in the end I think what matters is not playing alone. If you have people to play with I'm convinced it matters not what you're doing. Goals in both progressions are just excuses to hang out and play together because the reason I quit games in the end is from loneliness.
Why? The number of levels is just a superficial number in a game. I don't see why 200 levels is more fun then 20, what matters is the time it takes to max out a character (I agree that you usually level way too fast in MMOs but grinding sucks if you percieve it as grind. If it is fun it ain't really a grind or so well hidden it doesn't matter what it is).
Imagine I am calling it a grind but it isn't. It is a way to get a frame in my mind so I don't mind when I find grind in games. Simple as that.
Now for context. You brought up wow and 10 levels in an expansion and your other point. Well, given context you gave, IMO they should have added 60s levels. that is in wow for tbc not all other games etc. By adding 60 levels those old endgame gear items can be made to last 20-30 levels or perhaps more. People will likely still bitch about it.
We are different. The game starts at level 1. You want to race to the end. I want to enjoy the journey which is often more enjoyable leveling than being stuck at cap for a year.
I would rather have two years of leveling a character than 10 days. IF you understand that, you understand where I am coming from for this post.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Imagine I am calling it a grind but it isn't. It is a way to get a frame in my mind so I don't mind when I find grind in games. Simple as that.
Now for context. You brought up wow and 10 levels in an expansion and your other point. Well, given context you gave, IMO they should have added 60s levels. that is in wow for tbc not all other games etc. By adding 60 levels those old endgame gear items can be made to last 20-30 levels or perhaps more. People will likely still bitch about it.
We are different. The game starts at level 1. You want to race to the end. I want to enjoy the journey which is often more enjoyable leveling than being stuck at cap for a year.
I would rather have two years of leveling a character than 10 days. IF you understand that, you understand where I am coming from for this post.
Uh, I said modern MMOs make you level that fast, not that I like it that way personally (yeah, I might have sounded a bit unclear), the levelspeed is one of the main reasons I back Pantheon.
In Wows case or any other levelfocused game that increases level I think adding the same time to max out the expansion sound fair but you do that by raising the XP cost, not adding an insane amount of levels.
Personally do I think DDOs and GWs 20 levels is more then enough from start (and you don't need DDOs subs levels with a progressive XP cost for each level. Add 5 levels on your expansion and it is fine.
Reaching max level is another thing. I think about 10 times the standard time is right for me personally but I also think they could have an "easy" serverset for ultra casuals with fast leveling, low difficulty and less drop of epic stuff. It is actually not that hard to implement, you focus the balancing on the hard stuff, nerfing something to easy is not that hard after all.
Modern MMOs are still using EQs contentspread and putting most of the content in something everyone but the most casual players leave in weeks is the reason people usually leave MMOs so fast nowadays. For most modern MMOs you actually should put just 20% or so of the content into leveling and the rest to make an awesome endgame instead of forcing us to repeat a few dungeons, some arena PvP, a handful raids and the daily quests.
The modern endgame is based on EQs filler content people had when waiting for the next expansion and it worled great there (slow leveling speed, short times between expansions) but it doesn't work anymore and havn't for at least the last 10 years.
I still keep thinking back to the Shire in LOTRO with this subject. I set out on a mission to do every single quest in the Shire and I actually accomplished it. By the end of the zone I outleveled the content by such a wide margin I was easily cutting through my enemies with no resistance. It was actually making the content less enjoyable for me. It felt more like a punishment for not moving on faster than a reward for completing content. But I liked that zone. I wanted to stay in that zone. I wanted to experience everything that zone had to offer.
In a game with horizontal progression or a much lower power curve at least, the zone would have remained enjoyable for longer, and the rewards stayed more relevant.
Ridiculous stat curves are the enemy of well designed content and actually enjoying the leveling process.
If you enjoy the leveling process so much wouldn't it be better to focus on a more realistic power curve that doesn't punish you for not power leveling?
I'll give you a theoretical. Suppose in you were to take the levels between 15 and 20 and turn them into levels 1 through 200 then scale the power of enemies and gear to match that progression. Would the ability to progress slowly as you quest satisfy what you are looking for, or do you actually need an over the top DBZesque power progression to enjoy a game?
Because while I favor horizontal power progression, I know that I would consider a reasonable power curve a vast improvement over anything offered by any current MMO.
I tend to agree with the OP. Most MMOs these days are basically, if you've played one, you've played them all. Sure there's some story that's different but ultimately, you grind levels and gear in a fantasy world to go to PvP.
I wish developers would introduce something new. EVE Online's system is cool, albeit time intensive, however having the prospect of being "viable" in under a month if you skill the right abilities is something that I really like.
Hunting animal packs in a group to get my rifle XP up in SWG is one of the most memorable levelling experiences i've ever had.
Would the game still exist, I wouldn't want it removed!
Levelling a character to max - if the game isn't too easy - gives me a good feeling, because a lot of people wouldn't have the patience/motivation, and I did.
If everyone would start at the same level from the start... means no one had the time to learn their character.
Basically I think you'll be playing with people who got one too many trophy of participation in their life, who actually take pride in said trophies.
I don't want to raid with those people, and neither do you.
I still keep thinking back to the Shire in LOTRO with this subject. I set out on a mission to do every single quest in the Shire and I actually accomplished it. By the end of the zone I outleveled the content by such a wide margin I was easily cutting through my enemies with no resistance. It was actually making the content less enjoyable for me. It felt more like a punishment for not moving on faster than a reward for completing content. But I liked that zone. I wanted to stay in that zone. I wanted to experience everything that zone had to offer.
In a game with horizontal progression or a much lower power curve at least, the zone would have remained enjoyable for longer, and the rewards stayed more relevant.
Ridiculous stat curves are the enemy of well designed content and actually enjoying the leveling process.
If you enjoy the leveling process so much wouldn't it be better to focus on a more realistic power curve that doesn't punish you for not power leveling?
I'll give you a theoretical. Suppose in you were to take the levels between 15 and 20 and turn them into levels 1 through 200 then scale the power of enemies and gear to match that progression. Would the ability to progress slowly as you quest satisfy what you are looking for, or do you actually need an over the top DBZesque power progression to enjoy a game?
Because while I favor horizontal power progression, I know that I would consider a reasonable power curve a vast improvement over anything offered by any current MMO.
Try not to think a traditional hub based quest driven linear questing process, but something a bit larger picture. Instead of getting experience points for completing a set of easy tasks give a player a little more freedom and let him/her explore the zone more thoroughly. Make them craft their gear and harvest ore from caves full of mobs, make them kill beasts for their leather.
One quest is enough in the beginning, but let a player figure out how to prepare the best for the dangerous journey. There shouldn't be anything like 'outleveling content', 'a zone remaining enjoyable for longer', or 'a leveling process' for that matter. Frodo didn't have a log full of tasks to do. He got the One Ring and was told to take it to Rivendell. Rest of the 'quests' just happened while he tried to figure out how to best do it.
Wait a minute... are people actually stating there's a difference between gaining a level as a character as opposed to gaining a level in a skill? Folks, progression is progression, whether you level a character from gaining XP or level a skill by using that skill.
Yep, I was wondering the same thing.
More on the subject though, I think EVE does it right. Being a time based leveling system it allows you to play the game without the worry of having to grind boring content in order to maximize your leveling. Not sure why no one else picked it up.
Wait a minute... are people actually stating there's a difference between gaining a level as a character as opposed to gaining a level in a skill? Folks, progression is progression, whether you level a character from gaining XP or level a skill by using that skill.
Yep, I was wondering the same thing.
More on the subject though, I think EVE does it right. Being a time based leveling system it allows you to play the game without the worry of having to grind boring content in order to maximize your leveling. Not sure why no one else picked it up.
I think most devs think they should reward playing instead of how long you had your account. But there is certainly advantages with Eves model since people don't feel forced to play which tend to make people tire way faster then if they just play when they feel for it.
The disadvantage is that you can never catch up to someone that played longer no matter how much and how good you play.
Personally do I think a hybrid system would work better, using Eves system for some things and give out the rest with XP but only giving out XP once for everything to cut out the grind when people play the same boring thing over and over. It has the additional bonus that it awards competence since someone that plays good will complete the content rather fast while someone playing badly will spend far longer with it. At least for a fantasy game, Eve system is designed to play a ship after all.
I tend to agree with the OP. Most MMOs these days are basically, if you've played one, you've played them all. Sure there's some story that's different but ultimately, you grind levels and gear in a fantasy world to go to PvP.
I wish developers would introduce something new. EVE Online's system is cool, albeit time intensive, however having the prospect of being "viable" in under a month if you skill the right abilities is something that I really like.
Most of them just feel like you are going through the motions, especially the story/quest based games
Wait a minute... are people actually stating there's a difference between gaining a level as a character as opposed to gaining a level in a skill? Folks, progression is progression, whether you level a character from gaining XP or level a skill by using that skill.
Yep, I was wondering the same thing.
More on the subject though, I think EVE does it right. Being a time based leveling system it allows you to play the game without the worry of having to grind boring content in order to maximize your leveling. Not sure why no one else picked it up.
Crowfall will have this. Emphasis is on your skill as a player and less on your level/gear.
Diminishing returns and front-loading the important skills ensures everyone plays on a relatively level playing field.
It's by no means an absolutely perfect solution but it's a lot better than having massive disparity between new players or having complete homogenization
The MMO community has become a total echo chamber these days. The amount of friends I have who once played MMOs but refused to play anymore because they are sick and tired of the grind in every game is staggering. Infact outside our household and friends I met through MMOs, nobody I know will play them anymore.
Even of people I met through MMOs a sizeable number are just playing steam games while they wait to see if something better is ever released in the MMO industry.
So you get most of the people left who just go on and on about how great grinding is. Well, at least on boards like these. Even in-game a lot of people talk about how they wish the power disparity was lower.
Thankfully, when you look at the MMOs slated to released (All of them indie kickstarters because AAA companies have given up on MMOs) they almost all promise lower disparity and a lack of grinding. It's nice to see the people killing this industry ignored for once.
I tend to agree with the OP. Most MMOs these days are basically, if you've played one, you've played them all. Sure there's some story that's different but ultimately, you grind levels and gear in a fantasy world to go to PvP.
I wish developers would introduce something new. EVE Online's system is cool, albeit time intensive, however having the prospect of being "viable" in under a month if you skill the right abilities is something that I really like.
Not true there're many differences. And this is good because not all players are the same. Even this thread is an example. Evenso, not every player can agree if something is grind. I've seen it myself over and over. We're not all the same. It's not surprising there's disagreement.
I don't like repetitive gameplay and I think that's at the heart of "level grind". Doing the same thing over and over gets boring fast. Whilst I think there's some broad support for diversifying gameplay, I think the previously mentioned problem still occurs. I'll give an example. I played a game recently called Eschalon Book I. I thought it was fairly fun. I made a list of complaints and even a review. However, when I checked complaints and reviews made by other players, I discovered htey were different. One of the players said the travel was grindy and slow, for example. I just couldn't fathom how they felt that way. Some people either have different interests or have different tolerances for certain kind of repetition--assuming it's repetitive. There's always some repetition in travel, even with fast travel systems.
I think that's another part of the key to figuring this out. Players have different tolerances for different kinds of repetition. Moreso, some player may be getting stimulation even as others aren't.
I think combat and story are two examples. I think some players prefer combat over story and some story over combat. If a player prefers combat then they're more likely to complain about story grind. If they prefer story then they're more likely to complain about combat grind. I can't be certain about this, and there might be further caveats if it's true.
The MMO community has become a total echo chamber these days. The amount of friends I have who once played MMOs but refused to play anymore because they are sick and tired of the grind in every game is staggering. Infact outside our household and friends I met through MMOs, nobody I know will play them anymore.
Even of people I met through MMOs a sizeable number are just playing steam games while they wait to see if something better is ever released in the MMO industry.
So you get most of the people left who just go on and on about how great grinding is. Well, at least on boards like these. Even in-game a lot of people talk about how they wish the power disparity was lower.
Thankfully, when you look at the MMOs slated to released (All of them indie kickstarters because AAA companies have given up on MMOs) they almost all promise lower disparity and a lack of grinding. It's nice to see the people killing this industry ignored for once.
Funny enough is half of the reason I back Pantheon that it is grindy, but levelgrind instead of gear grind. Slowly gaining power as I play feels far worse to me then constantly changing my gear and with levelgrind I have a goal in mind, same goal for a long time.
That is just me though, it seems like many people prefer gear grind while others want neither.
The first Guildwars did a pretty good job providing a fun game with minimal grinding and I think we could need another game like that right now. The real problem is that almost all MMOs tend to have the same kind of grind in about the same amount amd that isn't good, people who want something else have very little to play and while it is possible that the gear grinding gang is the largest I am rather sure that the rest of them is bigger combined turning away more then half of the potential players to other genres.
The other reason I back Pantheon BTW is the difficulty, we have the same problem there as well. AAA MMORPGs tend to be made after the same mold all competing with eachother for the exact same playerbase. While aiming for the largest group might sound smart they really should try for the second and third largest groups as well, there the competition is just indie games nowadays so it would be way easier getting a million players that way then by just doing the exact same thing as everyone else.
Darkfall, you can hate it all you want but at least you can join the content at any level. No retarded quests. If more games did it their way they would have so much resources availible for some actual content instead of quest lines noone cares about.
Comments
I do agree it's a much more engaging system for me personally then class based RPGs can offer. Even a hybrid between the class system and skill based system such as ArcheAge is preferable.
However making this change doesn't really deal with the issue of level grinding. In fact if anything it intensifies it by having you level every aspect of your character as opposed to a single character once.
It still would have to be implemented alongside other systems such as horizontal progression to deal with the kind of problems this topic is concerned with.
Guildwars for instance had comparible little grinding and while it had more PvPers then PvEers it still had plenty of long term PvE players. You certainly grinded for stuff there but not for game breaking things, most PvEers there I know played it because it was challenging and fun.
A MMO with zero grind that wasn't FPS based would fail but too much grind also kills a MMO. A MMO needs a balanced grind and it also needs to hide the grind as much as possible. There is a limit to how many times playing the exact same dungeon is fun just as replacing your gear to something better gets less fun if you do it every 5 minutes.
What players need for the game to keep being fun is long term goals instead of short term and that will include grind, but you need to hide that so it isn't in the players face all the time.
Killing 10 000 skeletons is a horrible grind but defeating 10 tough bosses feels a lot better. Same thing with needing 1000 cured leather to make an epic belt instead of a piece from something really hard to defeat.
For example WoW put in 10 levels in the latest expansion but made everything scale. What is the point in levels but to justify a grind?
Grind is great. They should have added 60 levels.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Dreadful design to a PVE progression junkie like me, EVE's design was far more to my liking.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Imagine I am calling it a grind but it isn't. It is a way to get a frame in my mind so I don't mind when I find grind in games. Simple as that.
Now for context. You brought up wow and 10 levels in an expansion and your other point. Well, given context you gave, IMO they should have added 60s levels. that is in wow for tbc not all other games etc. By adding 60 levels those old endgame gear items can be made to last 20-30 levels or perhaps more. People will likely still bitch about it.
We are different. The game starts at level 1. You want to race to the end. I want to enjoy the journey which is often more enjoyable leveling than being stuck at cap for a year.
I would rather have two years of leveling a character than 10 days. IF you understand that, you understand where I am coming from for this post.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
In Wows case or any other levelfocused game that increases level I think adding the same time to max out the expansion sound fair but you do that by raising the XP cost, not adding an insane amount of levels.
Personally do I think DDOs and GWs 20 levels is more then enough from start (and you don't need DDOs subs levels with a progressive XP cost for each level. Add 5 levels on your expansion and it is fine.
Reaching max level is another thing. I think about 10 times the standard time is right for me personally but I also think they could have an "easy" serverset for ultra casuals with fast leveling, low difficulty and less drop of epic stuff. It is actually not that hard to implement, you focus the balancing on the hard stuff, nerfing something to easy is not that hard after all.
Modern MMOs are still using EQs contentspread and putting most of the content in something everyone but the most casual players leave in weeks is the reason people usually leave MMOs so fast nowadays. For most modern MMOs you actually should put just 20% or so of the content into leveling and the rest to make an awesome endgame instead of forcing us to repeat a few dungeons, some arena PvP, a handful raids and the daily quests.
The modern endgame is based on EQs filler content people had when waiting for the next expansion and it worled great there (slow leveling speed, short times between expansions) but it doesn't work anymore and havn't for at least the last 10 years.
I still keep thinking back to the Shire in LOTRO with this subject. I set out on a mission to do every single quest in the Shire and I actually accomplished it. By the end of the zone I outleveled the content by such a wide margin I was easily cutting through my enemies with no resistance. It was actually making the content less enjoyable for me. It felt more like a punishment for not moving on faster than a reward for completing content. But I liked that zone. I wanted to stay in that zone. I wanted to experience everything that zone had to offer.
In a game with horizontal progression or a much lower power curve at least, the zone would have remained enjoyable for longer, and the rewards stayed more relevant.
Ridiculous stat curves are the enemy of well designed content and actually enjoying the leveling process.
If you enjoy the leveling process so much wouldn't it be better to focus on a more realistic power curve that doesn't punish you for not power leveling?
I'll give you a theoretical. Suppose in you were to take the levels between 15 and 20 and turn them into levels 1 through 200 then scale the power of enemies and gear to match that progression. Would the ability to progress slowly as you quest satisfy what you are looking for, or do you actually need an over the top DBZesque power progression to enjoy a game?
Because while I favor horizontal power progression, I know that I would consider a reasonable power curve a vast improvement over anything offered by any current MMO.
I wish developers would introduce something new. EVE Online's system is cool, albeit time intensive, however having the prospect of being "viable" in under a month if you skill the right abilities is something that I really like.
Let's Play Ragnarok Journey
Would the game still exist, I wouldn't want it removed!
Levelling a character to max - if the game isn't too easy - gives me a good feeling, because a lot of people wouldn't have the patience/motivation, and I did.
If everyone would start at the same level from the start... means no one had the time to learn their character.
Basically I think you'll be playing with people who got one too many trophy of participation in their life, who actually take pride in said trophies.
I don't want to raid with those people, and neither do you.
One quest is enough in the beginning, but let a player figure out how to prepare the best for the dangerous journey. There shouldn't be anything like 'outleveling content', 'a zone remaining enjoyable for longer', or 'a leveling process' for that matter. Frodo didn't have a log full of tasks to do. He got the One Ring and was told to take it to Rivendell. Rest of the 'quests' just happened while he tried to figure out how to best do it.
More on the subject though, I think EVE does it right.
Being a time based leveling system it allows you to play the game without the worry of having to grind boring content in order to maximize your leveling.
Not sure why no one else picked it up.
The disadvantage is that you can never catch up to someone that played longer no matter how much and how good you play.
Personally do I think a hybrid system would work better, using Eves system for some things and give out the rest with XP but only giving out XP once for everything to cut out the grind when people play the same boring thing over and over. It has the additional bonus that it awards competence since someone that plays good will complete the content rather fast while someone playing badly will spend far longer with it. At least for a fantasy game, Eve system is designed to play a ship after all.
It is certainly something worth trying at least.
Let's Play Ragnarok Journey
Crowfall will have this. Emphasis is on your skill as a player and less on your level/gear.
Diminishing returns and front-loading the important skills ensures everyone plays on a relatively level playing field.
It's by no means an absolutely perfect solution but it's a lot better than having massive disparity between new players or having complete homogenization
Even of people I met through MMOs a sizeable number are just playing steam games while they wait to see if something better is ever released in the MMO industry.
So you get most of the people left who just go on and on about how great grinding is. Well, at least on boards like these. Even in-game a lot of people talk about how they wish the power disparity was lower.
Thankfully, when you look at the MMOs slated to released (All of them indie kickstarters because AAA companies have given up on MMOs) they almost all promise lower disparity and a lack of grinding. It's nice to see the people killing this industry ignored for once.
I don't like repetitive gameplay and I think that's at the heart of "level grind". Doing the same thing over and over gets boring fast. Whilst I think there's some broad support for diversifying gameplay, I think the previously mentioned problem still occurs. I'll give an example. I played a game recently called Eschalon Book I. I thought it was fairly fun. I made a list of complaints and even a review. However, when I checked complaints and reviews made by other players, I discovered htey were different. One of the players said the travel was grindy and slow, for example. I just couldn't fathom how they felt that way. Some people either have different interests or have different tolerances for certain kind of repetition--assuming it's repetitive. There's always some repetition in travel, even with fast travel systems.
I think that's another part of the key to figuring this out. Players have different tolerances for different kinds of repetition. Moreso, some player may be getting stimulation even as others aren't.
I think combat and story are two examples. I think some players prefer combat over story and some story over combat. If a player prefers combat then they're more likely to complain about story grind. If they prefer story then they're more likely to complain about combat grind. I can't be certain about this, and there might be further caveats if it's true.
That is just me though, it seems like many people prefer gear grind while others want neither.
The first Guildwars did a pretty good job providing a fun game with minimal grinding and I think we could need another game like that right now. The real problem is that almost all MMOs tend to have the same kind of grind in about the same amount amd that isn't good, people who want something else have very little to play and while it is possible that the gear grinding gang is the largest I am rather sure that the rest of them is bigger combined turning away more then half of the potential players to other genres.
The other reason I back Pantheon BTW is the difficulty, we have the same problem there as well. AAA MMORPGs tend to be made after the same mold all competing with eachother for the exact same playerbase. While aiming for the largest group might sound smart they really should try for the second and third largest groups as well, there the competition is just indie games nowadays so it would be way easier getting a million players that way then by just doing the exact same thing as everyone else.