The support should have been shown before the game was announced it was being shut down, not after. We don't really get to pick and choose when to support something, and then be mad when funding is pulled due to no one playing.
What about the ones who did support it before the announcement? we don't count? unfortunately in Epic's eyes we don't. I doubt they change their minds because Paragon will not bring them pubg's money like FN is doing. Another proof that trends are all that matter in gaming now, specially in modern gaming (games as a service).
The ones who supported it were rewarded with MULTIPLE game-wide overhauls. They tried. They did their due diligence. They failed, and now they're offering complete refunds.
They have been more fair to their supporters than just about any developer has ever been.
This is/was one of the better games on the market. But with all the trash kids going to PUBG as a game hop option stands to reason a few from here would go as well. I liked this game.
Company that makes another moba game, then turns it is new project to battle royal game to fit current mainstream is not deserve any attention at all..
Correct me if I am wrong but Paragon is not doing bad, they just want to shift everything they have to Fortnite because its doing much better.
er, and?
I appreciate that that you have some sort of "sense of fairness" but games are a business. They've always been a business even if the demands of being a business haven't always put pressure on their developers/studios.
Moving people from an "ok" money maker to a great money maker not only makes good business sense but it could prove to be a boon to those people who are being moved.
Working on an "ok" money maker might soon prove to be "working on a game that doesn't make money" and then the layoffs begin.
I'm sure the developers being moved are going to breather a sigh of relief that they have better job security going forward.
Yeah, I don't know what point Mikeha is trying to make. This is something that happens, a lot. Getting upset about it, won't change things. The game wasn't doing well enough; if it was, they wouldn't have dropped it.
I have played Devilian; they dropped it because PUBG (like Fortnite) is obviously doing way better, but for the people who enjoy these games, it's obviously a hard pill to swallow.
What I noticed, is people were commenting on the Devilian forum saying how much they enjoyed it, but they admitted they haven't played for awhile. How do you expect a game to survive if you never play it? Makes no sense to me.
"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
Correct me if I am wrong but Paragon is not doing bad, they just want to shift everything they have to Fortnite because its doing much better.
Tell me what you would do as a business, put resources and money into a project barely making money with a small community or dump everything in your cash cow overflowing with money?
I will tell what I will do as a consumer, not dump money into a publisher that does that. So Epic can expect not to see money from me at all. It's why I don't pay or play NCSoft games anymore. I don't trust them. This may surprise you but customer good will does still mean something.
This is the downside of software as a service. When a publisher loses interest then it's all over.
That's perfect, that's called voting with your wallet. However when you learn you are just a sheep in a flock it has no impact and no meaning. Epic doesn't notice you, you weren't even on their radar. For every one person that no longer does business with X company, 3 more show up in the pocket books. You can't kill big business, their downfall is only their own by making bad decisions and pumping in resources that aren't making cash (looking at you THQ).
[[ DEAD ]] - Funny - I deleted my account on the site using the cancel account button. Forum user is separate and still exists with no way of deleting it. Delete it admins. Do it, this ends now.
Correct me if I am wrong but Paragon is not doing bad, they just want to shift everything they have to Fortnite because its doing much better.
Tell me what you would do as a business, put resources and money into a project barely making money with a small community or dump everything in your cash cow overflowing with money?
I will tell what I will do as a consumer, not dump money into a publisher that does that. So Epic can expect not to see money from me at all. It's why I don't pay or play NCSoft games anymore. I don't trust them. This may surprise you but customer good will does still mean something.
This is the downside of software as a service. When a publisher loses interest then it's all over.
That's perfect, that's called voting with your wallet. However when you learn you are just a sheep in a flock it has no impact and no meaning. Epic doesn't notice you, you weren't even on their radar. For every one person that no longer does business with X company, 3 more show up in the pocket books. You can't kill big business, their downfall is only their own by making bad decisions and pumping in resources that aren't making cash (looking at you THQ).
I'm not killing big business. I don't need to. The market is saturated. It will correct itself. I don't need to pay for another game ever again I have so many in my library. Epic isn't a big player anymore. They've barely made 2 games in 5 years, and they can only keep one open? They're the ones that have something to worry about, not me. They're completely riding on the success of Fortnite. They have nothing else. That works when you're Riot. Fortnite is no LoL or PUBG for that matter.
Epic makes their cash from their engine license not games, the explosion of Fortnite was a shot in the dark, infact it was designed out on an in-house game jam. It's icing on the cake.
[[ DEAD ]] - Funny - I deleted my account on the site using the cancel account button. Forum user is separate and still exists with no way of deleting it. Delete it admins. Do it, this ends now.
I will just look at two gaming companies to save on the goggling. Lets look at Turbine and EA.
Here Toby Ragaini (Turbine) talks about AC, it was a technical labour of love. Not a lot of talk about executives because back then designers and design came before corporate culture.
Here is a quote from TR after AC became history and he had moved to far bigger projects: "Somewhere along the way, working on 80-person teams and $50-million budgets stopped being fun and exciting. I missed the working with a small, nimble team and more modest budget. You are able to be more adaptive, creative, and ultimately make less compromised decisions."
The executives who led gaming companies until the end of the 90's were likely to have a background relevant to gaming, here Jeff Anderson Turbine CEO talks about his background and being a childhood fan of RPG's. Before he became Turbine CEO he was at Origin Systems (UO), before that EA's virtual worlds, and before that jobs unrelated to gaming. Compare that to John Riccitiello as I show later.
That's one of the main things that changed, gaming companies eventfully embraced corporate culture or had it forced on them. Instead of promoting from within the ranks, they bought in outsiders from large corporations. In fact the ones with the most dubious reputation today tend to be the ones who did this the earliest.
Take EA, started by Trip Harris who studied Strategy and Applied Game Theory in 1984. In 1997 they brought in John S. Riccitiello as their COO, what was his background in gaming, game technology or game design? Well he moved from Clorox (chemicals) to Pepsi Cola to Haagen-Dazs to Wilson Sporting Goods and finally rounded of his solid gaming industry background in Sara Lee Bakery Worldwide. He was later rehired in 2007 as CEO. He gloated (I am not exaggerating here, that's how he sounded) about making designers think of the cost before the they thought of an idea and making games so easy your mum could play them.
As for Turbine, they held to gaming ethos, no cash shop for Lotro when it launched in 2007, but they introduced one in 2010. Why was that, well they were purchased by Warner Bros. The corporate outlook became the priority, within a year the cash shop was as bad as any other MMO of that time.
The big gaming publishers have become hugely more profitable, more like movie studios now in clout and revenue. But they lost their gaming ethos along the way, you only have to look at everything from gambling in gaming to "skin economies" to realise that.
Perhaps you could back up your idea of fantasy history with some research, or you could just do another one line reply?
I hope all is well in Fortnite. Everything here is passing by so quickly and the winter is almost gone. It has only been a while since we talked and everything feels different. I really do hope your new game is going well. It must be such an exciting time for you.
My sweet little Epic, as you know, what you lack is a community. But i feel this not enough as a practical advice. How can Paragon fail to satisfy such an easily satiable developer like you? You didn't have to love it. You’re always ready to give your love, it’s the easiest thing to get from you.
I now have only to console my grieving friends and point the direction of a steadier moba; it’s a feeling easily distorted. But i was capable of it, and you made me experience it. Don't bother apologizing for the card system. Don't bother trying to mimic the others. Listen Epic, to make your game not existent anymore in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make it like everything else is an uphill battle and you just said 'Fuck it, we'll go around, we'll go around the fucking hill".
Correct me if I am wrong but Paragon is not doing bad, they just want to shift everything they have to Fortnite because its doing much better.
Tell me what you would do as a business, put resources and money into a project barely making money with a small community or dump everything in your cash cow overflowing with money?
I will tell what I will do as a consumer, not dump money into a publisher that does that. So Epic can expect not to see money from me at all. It's why I don't pay or play NCSoft games anymore. I don't trust them. This may surprise you but customer good will does still mean something.
This is the downside of software as a service. When a publisher loses interest then it's all over.
That's perfect, that's called voting with your wallet. However when you learn you are just a sheep in a flock it has no impact and no meaning. Epic doesn't notice you, you weren't even on their radar. For every one person that no longer does business with X company, 3 more show up in the pocket books. You can't kill big business, their downfall is only their own by making bad decisions and pumping in resources that aren't making cash (looking at you THQ).
I'm not killing big business. I don't need to. The market is saturated. It will correct itself. I don't need to pay for another game ever again I have so many in my library. Epic isn't a big player anymore. They've barely made 2 games in 5 years, and they can only keep one open? They're the ones that have something to worry about, not me. They're completely riding on the success of Fortnite. They have nothing else. That works when you're Riot. Fortnite is no LoL or PUBG for that matter.
Epic makes their cash from their engine license not games, the explosion of Fortnite was a shot in the dark, infact it was designed out on an in-house game jam. It's icing on the cake.
Does he have to stop playing all games that use Unreal engine now?
Correct me if I am wrong but Paragon is not doing bad, they just want to shift everything they have to Fortnite because its doing much better.
Tell me what you would do as a business, put resources and money into a project barely making money with a small community or dump everything in your cash cow overflowing with money?
I will tell what I will do as a consumer, not dump money into a publisher that does that. So Epic can expect not to see money from me at all. It's why I don't pay or play NCSoft games anymore. I don't trust them. This may surprise you but customer good will does still mean something.
This is the downside of software as a service. When a publisher loses interest then it's all over.
That's perfect, that's called voting with your wallet. However when you learn you are just a sheep in a flock it has no impact and no meaning. Epic doesn't notice you, you weren't even on their radar. For every one person that no longer does business with X company, 3 more show up in the pocket books. You can't kill big business, their downfall is only their own by making bad decisions and pumping in resources that aren't making cash (looking at you THQ).
I'm not killing big business. I don't need to. The market is saturated. It will correct itself. I don't need to pay for another game ever again I have so many in my library. Epic isn't a big player anymore. They've barely made 2 games in 5 years, and they can only keep one open? They're the ones that have something to worry about, not me. They're completely riding on the success of Fortnite. They have nothing else. That works when you're Riot. Fortnite is no LoL or PUBG for that matter.
Epic makes their cash from their engine license not games, the explosion of Fortnite was a shot in the dark, infact it was designed out on an in-house game jam. It's icing on the cake.
Does he have to stop playing all games that use Unreal engine now?
That's the exact point, well done.
[[ DEAD ]] - Funny - I deleted my account on the site using the cancel account button. Forum user is separate and still exists with no way of deleting it. Delete it admins. Do it, this ends now.
Company that makes another moba game, then turns it is new project to battle royal game to fit current mainstream is not deserve any attention at all..
I do find it funny how people acting like Paragon was anything but an attempt to pull players from the other popular moba's just like Fortnight is doing on the BR scene... they just had more success doing so with one than the other.
I doubt either were made with a passion for the project and more so chasing the $$$ they see the popular titles raking in.
Not too dissimilar to MMORPGs released in recent years.. many poping up out of nowhere and closing not to long after.
Correct me if I am wrong but Paragon is not doing bad, they just want to shift everything they have to Fortnite because its doing much better.
Tell me what you would do as a business, put resources and money into a project barely making money with a small community or dump everything in your cash cow overflowing with money?
I will tell what I will do as a consumer, not dump money into a publisher that does that. So Epic can expect not to see money from me at all. It's why I don't pay or play NCSoft games anymore. I don't trust them. This may surprise you but customer good will does still mean something.
This is the downside of software as a service. When a publisher loses interest then it's all over.
That's perfect, that's called voting with your wallet. However when you learn you are just a sheep in a flock it has no impact and no meaning. Epic doesn't notice you, you weren't even on their radar. For every one person that no longer does business with X company, 3 more show up in the pocket books. You can't kill big business, their downfall is only their own by making bad decisions and pumping in resources that aren't making cash (looking at you THQ).
I'm not killing big business. I don't need to. The market is saturated. It will correct itself. I don't need to pay for another game ever again I have so many in my library. Epic isn't a big player anymore. They've barely made 2 games in 5 years, and they can only keep one open? They're the ones that have something to worry about, not me. They're completely riding on the success of Fortnite. They have nothing else. That works when you're Riot. Fortnite is no LoL or PUBG for that matter.
Epic makes their cash from their engine license not games, the explosion of Fortnite was a shot in the dark, infact it was designed out on an in-house game jam. It's icing on the cake.
Does he have to stop playing all games that use Unreal engine now?
That's the exact point, well done.
What is your point?
Do you think because they license an engine that I have to not use games that license it? Small minded people painting the world into small little boxes always missing the point.
This isn't a crusade. It's that I don't play games from publishers that close them in a blink of an eye with complete disregard for the playerbase. If you want to throw money at them, have fun.
2 years isn't the blink of an eye. Hell, compared to other dead mobas (like Dawngate and Infinite Crisis), Paragon could be seen as having a downright tortured death.
Hell, Dawngate was an infinitely better MOBA than Paragon was. An infinitely better moba than any of its competition, in my opinion. It actually had an identity and positively innovated the genre on a level that Paragon has never achieved. And it was shut down almost immediately after launch. EA gave the game no chance to find its footing whatsoever. THAT is a game being shut down by a publisher in the blink of an eye.
Paragon, on the other hand, is diet Smite. It uses the traditional trilane jungle & river (aka Summoner's Rift/DotA) map. It has the most bland, low-skill character designs in the entire genre, with not a single character appealing to a high-skill veteran audience. Newer characters were frequently released with multiple passive skills, making them take even less skill than their brethren. Characters would frequently be reworked to lose actives in favor of passives, ruining the already basic character designs to aim towards the most casual of audiences. The only thing about Paragon that stood out was the card system, which was such a poorly conceived, poorly implemented abortion of an idea that, despite multiple sweeping reworks of that system alone, never felt compelling, intuitive, flexible, or conducive to a competitive game.
And despite being a bad game aimed at the very lowest common denominator of MOBA players, Paragon was still given more than its fair chance at success. They attempted to polish this turd through how many game-wide reworks? 3? 4? Frankly, I stopped counting. Why? Because even though every single complete overhaul changed the game's mechanics drastically, none of them pushed the game farther away from other, better mobas or lent the game a unique identity of its own. It was always diet Smite, and probably always would have remained just that.
I bought the $100 master founders pack or whatever it was called.
I feel I got my monies worth from the several hundred ours I put into the game.
If they want to give me a refund I will take it. If not then no worries either.
Overall was a fun game. Just didn't have any long term appeal past 3 or 4 months for me. Everyone I knew that played pretty much quit after that same amount of time.
I really liked the gameplay, the characters, and the artstyle, but got chased away by other players early on. Played the game for ages with bots with a few different chars to learn the basics, then attempted a few games with real people. Was getting constant insults from other players, getting told to "get good you useless pr*ck" or "f*ck off noob". Guess it's not the games fault since I've faced similar insults in a lot of other games, but I couldn't even stuck around and play with bots here since the game stops giving out XP in bots games after you reach a certain level.
Anyways I paid for a founders pack thingie ages back, but meh, not gonna request a refund since I felt I've gotten my money's worth too.
i was part of this game . Graphics and gameplay is really cool . after they changed runes and card system i stop playing bcuz it killed the gameplay . not my type .
the game was doing worse and worse, update by update. since the cardsystem was implemented, the playerbase split in half, lots of ppl left and the remaining loved it.
those who loved the cardsystem obviously have no idea about good moba systems.
I dont understand why people blame fortnite for paragons failure, yea it had the last big impact on it, but epic did so many things wrong with paragon before fortnite was any interesting(not that i find the battle royale mode interesting).
Company that makes another moba game, then turns it is new project to battle royal game to fit current mainstream is not deserve any attention at all..
Honestly, what you said is 100% accurate.. more people should tag your comment.
Comments
They have been more fair to their supporters than just about any developer has ever been.
"X game sucks because the community is so toxic. They falsely reported me for cheating. Also, fuck Game Guard."
Think about it. It might save you a lot of time.
No there hasn’t. *sigh* Gamers and the little fantasy worlds they live in.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I will just look at two gaming companies to save on the goggling. Lets look at Turbine and EA.
Here Toby Ragaini (Turbine) talks about AC, it was a technical labour of love. Not a lot of talk about executives because back then designers and design came before corporate culture.
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/257659/Classic_Postmortem_Asherons_Call.php#tophead
Here is a quote from TR after AC became history and he had moved to far bigger projects:
"Somewhere along the way, working on 80-person teams and $50-million budgets stopped being fun and exciting. I missed the working with a small, nimble team and more modest budget. You are able to be more adaptive, creative, and ultimately make less compromised decisions."
The executives who led gaming companies until the end of the 90's were likely to have a background relevant to gaming, here Jeff Anderson Turbine CEO talks about his background and being a childhood fan of RPG's. Before he became Turbine CEO he was at Origin Systems (UO), before that EA's virtual worlds, and before that jobs unrelated to gaming. Compare that to John Riccitiello as I show later.
http://asheron.wikia.com/wiki/Microsoft_Games_Archive/Dark_Majesty/Turbine_CEO_Interview
That's one of the main things that changed, gaming companies eventfully embraced corporate culture or had it forced on them. Instead of promoting from within the ranks, they bought in outsiders from large corporations. In fact the ones with the most dubious reputation today tend to be the ones who did this the earliest.
Take EA, started by Trip Harris who studied Strategy and Applied Game Theory in 1984. In 1997 they brought in John S. Riccitiello as their COO, what was his background in gaming, game technology or game design? Well he moved from Clorox (chemicals) to Pepsi Cola to Haagen-Dazs to Wilson Sporting Goods and finally rounded of his solid gaming industry background in Sara Lee Bakery Worldwide. He was later rehired in 2007 as CEO. He gloated (I am not exaggerating here, that's how he sounded) about making designers think of the cost before the they thought of an idea and making games so easy your mum could play them.
As for Turbine, they held to gaming ethos, no cash shop for Lotro when it launched in 2007, but they introduced one in 2010. Why was that, well they were purchased by Warner Bros. The corporate outlook became the priority, within a year the cash shop was as bad as any other MMO of that time.
The big gaming publishers have become hugely more profitable, more like movie studios now in clout and revenue. But they lost their gaming ethos along the way, you only have to look at everything from gambling in gaming to "skin economies" to realise that.
Perhaps you could back up your idea of fantasy history with some research, or you could just do another one line reply?
I hope all is well in Fortnite. Everything here is passing by so quickly and the winter is almost gone. It has only been a while since we talked and everything feels different. I really do hope your new game is going well. It must be such an exciting time for you.
My sweet little Epic, as you know, what you lack is a community. But i feel this not enough as a practical advice. How can Paragon fail to satisfy such an easily satiable developer like you? You didn't have to love it. You’re always ready to give your love, it’s the easiest thing to get from you.
I now have only to console my grieving friends and point the direction of a steadier moba; it’s a feeling easily distorted. But i was capable of it, and you made me experience it. Don't bother apologizing for the card system. Don't bother trying to mimic the others. Listen Epic, to make your game not existent anymore in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make it like everything else is an uphill battle and you just said 'Fuck it, we'll go around, we'll go around the fucking hill".
I do find it funny how people acting like Paragon was anything but an attempt to pull players from the other popular moba's just like Fortnight is doing on the BR scene... they just had more success doing so with one than the other.
I doubt either were made with a passion for the project and more so chasing the $$$ they see the popular titles raking in.
Not too dissimilar to MMORPGs released in recent years.. many poping up out of nowhere and closing not to long after.
https://ashesofcreation.com/r/Y4U3PQCASUPJ5SED
Hell, Dawngate was an infinitely better MOBA than Paragon was. An infinitely better moba than any of its competition, in my opinion. It actually had an identity and positively innovated the genre on a level that Paragon has never achieved. And it was shut down almost immediately after launch. EA gave the game no chance to find its footing whatsoever. THAT is a game being shut down by a publisher in the blink of an eye.
Paragon, on the other hand, is diet Smite. It uses the traditional trilane jungle & river (aka Summoner's Rift/DotA) map. It has the most bland, low-skill character designs in the entire genre, with not a single character appealing to a high-skill veteran audience. Newer characters were frequently released with multiple passive skills, making them take even less skill than their brethren. Characters would frequently be reworked to lose actives in favor of passives, ruining the already basic character designs to aim towards the most casual of audiences. The only thing about Paragon that stood out was the card system, which was such a poorly conceived, poorly implemented abortion of an idea that, despite multiple sweeping reworks of that system alone, never felt compelling, intuitive, flexible, or conducive to a competitive game.
And despite being a bad game aimed at the very lowest common denominator of MOBA players, Paragon was still given more than its fair chance at success. They attempted to polish this turd through how many game-wide reworks? 3? 4? Frankly, I stopped counting. Why? Because even though every single complete overhaul changed the game's mechanics drastically, none of them pushed the game farther away from other, better mobas or lent the game a unique identity of its own. It was always diet Smite, and probably always would have remained just that.
I feel I got my monies worth from the several hundred ours I put into the game.
If they want to give me a refund I will take it. If not then no worries either.
Overall was a fun game. Just didn't have any long term appeal past 3 or 4 months for me. Everyone I knew that played pretty much quit after that same amount of time.
Paragon was in trouble long before Fortnite Battle Royale was a thing.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Anyways I paid for a founders pack thingie ages back, but meh, not gonna request a refund since I felt I've gotten my money's worth too.
those who loved the cardsystem obviously have no idea about good moba systems.
I dont understand why people blame fortnite for paragons failure, yea it had the last big impact on it, but epic did so many things wrong with paragon before fortnite was any interesting(not that i find the battle royale mode interesting).
Honestly, what you said is 100% accurate.. more people should tag your comment.