How Crafting will differ in CoE, compared to more traditional MMOs

mystichaze · April 2018

I don't know about you folks but this information has me very excited about CoEs crafting system.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/24679/design-journal-crafting-redux

Vrika · April 2018

That sound impossible to me.

It's something a game with $100+ million budget might try to implement, not something that a small indie team could hope to do.

NeutralEvil · April 2018

This is what SBS is creating instead of an endless stream of "quests" that your character would see in a traditional MMO

I don't have time right now but I can't wait until I get home later today to read this much anticipated Crafting journal

Slapshot1188 · April 2018

Game should have been released last year. Not even in Alpha testing... and they think this is something they are reasonably capable of creating.

Just think how much time is needed to crest this for every skill in the game. From Blacksmithing to Cooking to Minjng to Candlestick making...

Such continued disconnect from reality...

Love to “see his Gantt charts” on this one..

mystichaze · April 2018

Vrika said:

That sound impossible to me.

It's something a game with $100+ million budget might try to implement, not something that a small indie team could hope to do.

You say it sounds impossible and that it would take over a $100 million budget to try to implement. With that, I would have to ask is that just an assumption on your part or do you possess development experience that would lead you to believe what you have stated?

It is always easy for someone with no knowledge to make blanketed statements, but in order for there to be any validity, you should at least possess knowledge of game development.

If you have experience then I am more then willing to listen to the facts behind your statement.

AnOldFart · April 2018

Slapshot1188 said:

Game should have been released last year. Not even in Alpha testing... and they think this is something they are reasonably capable of creating.

Just think how much time is needed to crest this for every skill in the game. From Blacksmithing to Cooking to Minjng to Candlestick making...

Such continued disconnect from reality...

Love to “see his Gantt charts” on this one..

Constantly beating around the same point and not actually discussing what the thread is about.

Ok the game is delayed
Ok the game might not be out until 2020 but there is plenty of threads discussing just that, this thread is about the crafting.

things I would rather discuss:

Is what is mentioned possible?
Would you like to see these features?
Would you want an in depth crafting like this or would you rather it was simple point and click?

Anyway enough on that, this sounds good and I am interested but I am dubious that it's possible, although @NeutralEvil makes a good point on that they are not busy creating a theme park so have time to develop this sort of thing.

mystichaze · April 2018

Xodic said:

It sounds like someone just binge watched all the episodes of Forged in Fire, and tried to use every keyword from their notes during the pitch.

The problem with mini game crafting is that it quickly becomes repetitive, boring, and with all of the minor details they're trying to implement, tedious. The question becomes; how much time and effort will it take to have a lasting impact? The answer, in my opinion, is too much.

I'm curious to know if anyone has ever actually enjoyed a crafting mini-game. I liked KC:D alchemy mini-game, for the first 30 minutes, and then I rejoiced knowing that higher level alchemists can skip it completely.

Crafting in CoE is not intended to be mini-games. In CoE each player is expected to take on a Role within their communities in whatever field that interests them. So for example, if you wanted to be a blacksmith, that is where you would be spending most of your time and energy trying to perfect your craft. Experimenting with different strategies, recipes, making mistakes and building your reputation as the best at what you do.

Unlike other MMOs, crafting is not just something you do to acquire better gear, potions and so on but rather it is your in-game profession. For that reason alone the crafting mechanics are going to have to be more interesting and challenging than other MMOs.

Of course, that is not going to be for everyone and in that case you just don't become a crafter, instead, you would focus your energy on a different aspect of the game that interests you and buy your equipment from those that it does interest.

CoE was never intended to be like other game where you are going to be able to play it as a single player game and be able to do everything yourself with one or two characters, things are expected to be more specialized. The same as players are expected to interact with other players in order to advance in the game.

Dleatherus · April 2018

Xodic said:

It sounds like someone just binge watched all the episodes of Forged in Fire, and tried to use every keyword from their notes during the pitch.

The problem with mini game crafting is that it quickly becomes repetitive, boring, and with all of the minor details they're trying to implement, tedious. The question becomes; how much time and effort will it take to have a lasting impact? The answer, in my opinion, is too much.

I'm curious to know if anyone has ever actually enjoyed a crafting mini-game. I liked KC:D alchemy mini-game, for the first 30 minutes, and then I rejoiced knowing that higher level alchemists can skip it completely.

a legitimate question/concern

i think it's a double-edged sword

i prefer the PvP side of things and so don't see myself getting to be a legendary anything in terms of crafting related profession

at the same time that is part of the essence of CoE

it's not meant to be like other games where i had a toon leveled up to legendary in every profession and could in essence be self-sufficient so that if i needed something at the drop of the hat i could just toon over

the crafters i know that are following CoE are really liking the way it is turning out

it's like when i played Ultima Online back in the late 90's - a lot of people were smiths as an example - but only a few smiths were dedicated enough to get the legendary hammers etc that gave that bit of an extra edge when crafting or repairing gear

so much so that there would be a line outside of the smithy in Britannia with folks chatting to each other about all kinds of stuff as they waited their turn to employ the best at their craft

though this means i won't have a stable of my own legendary-in-everything toons available for my own personal use, i'm really liking what they are doing

Slapshot1188 · April 2018

AnOldFart said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Game should have been released last year. Not even in Alpha testing... and they think this is something they are reasonably capable of creating.

Just think how much time is needed to crest this for every skill in the game. From Blacksmithing to Cooking to Minjng to Candlestick making...

Such continued disconnect from reality...

Love to “see his Gantt charts” on this one..

Constantly beating around the same point and not actually discussing what the thread is about.

Ok the game is delayed
Ok the game might not be out until 2020 but there is plenty of threads discussing just that, this thread is about the crafting.

things I would rather discuss:

Is what is mentioned possible?
Would you like to see these features?
Would you want an in depth crafting like this or would you rather it was simple point and click?

Anyway enough on that, this sounds good and I am interested but I am dubious that it's possible, although @NeutralEvil makes a good point on that they are not busy creating a theme park so have time to develop this sort of thing.

No.. you sadly are again mistaken. The POINT which most could easily see is that once again they promise an excruciatingly intricate system, far beyond what other games offer. The POINT again, is that there is no chance, and yes I mean ZERO, that they can implement such a system for all their crafting and hit their timelines.

THAT is the point. Do you wish them to continue to post pie in the sky concepts that aren't implemented or realistic ones that you will actually see in game? If this were posted 4 years ago maybe people could see it as something possible by when they are supposed to be working on their no-wipe Exposition (S1 2019). To think that they will now be able to implement these systems across all the crafting skills by that date is just not reasonable.

Anyone can post pie in the sky concepts. The key is actually being able to implement them, in the time allocated and within budget.

Dleatherus · April 2018

nah the POINT is we get that - you've made it clear in almost every thread

the POINT is that not everybody shares your skeptical and pessimistic viewpoint

the POINT is that many within the community are excited about this

the POINT is that you seem to like to take a dump on everything that comes out

the POINT is that being skeptical and critical are good things, but being so at every thread and post in these forums dedicated to CoE, not just the possibility that it might not achieve it's ambitious agenda, gets a bit wearisome

mystichaze · April 2018

Slapshot1188 said:

AnOldFart said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Game should have been released last year. Not even in Alpha testing... and they think this is something they are reasonably capable of creating.

Just think how much time is needed to crest this for every skill in the game. From Blacksmithing to Cooking to Minjng to Candlestick making...

Such continued disconnect from reality...

Love to “see his Gantt charts” on this one..

Constantly beating around the same point and not actually discussing what the thread is about.

Ok the game is delayed
Ok the game might not be out until 2020 but there is plenty of threads discussing just that, this thread is about the crafting.

things I would rather discuss:

Is what is mentioned possible?
Would you like to see these features?
Would you want an in depth crafting like this or would you rather it was simple point and click?

Anyway enough on that, this sounds good and I am interested but I am dubious that it's possible, although @NeutralEvil makes a good point on that they are not busy creating a theme park so have time to develop this sort of thing.

No.. you sadly are again mistaken. The POINT which most could easily see is that once again they promise an excruciatingly intricate system, far beyond what other games offer. The POINT again, is that there is no chance, and yes I mean ZERO, that they can implement such a system for all their crafting and hit their timelines.

THAT is the point. Do you wish them to continue to post pie in the sky concepts that aren't implemented or realistic ones that you will actually see in game? If this were posted 4 years ago maybe people could see it as something possible by when they are supposed to be working on their no-wipe Exposition (S1 2019). To think that they will now be able to implement these systems across all the crafting skills by that date is just not reasonable.

Anyone can post pie in the sky concepts. The key is actually being able to implement them, in the time allocated and within budget.

For one S1 2019 is a tentative date, not a firm date. Secondly, you have no idea how far in development their crafting system is just because the information was only released today. Thirdly, this thread is not regarding timelines but rather the structure of their crafting system so please stay on topic.

Slapshot1188 · April 2018

Dleatherus said:

Stuff

Based on what we have seen regarding their development. What gives you reason to believe that they will be able to implement this, as described, across all their crafting.. in roughly a year?

Help me understand why you think it's likely to happen.

Dleatherus · April 2018

Slapshot1188 said:

Dleatherus said:

Stuff

Based on what we have seen regarding their development. What gives you reason to believe that they will be able to implement this, as described, across all their crafting.. in roughly a year?

Help me understand why you think it's likely to happen.

the point is we beat that to death in countless other threads

the fact that it it is a system that is the common core mechanic of every skill (including combat) in the game means it doesn't have to be implemented from scratch for each profession

it means that the techniques, tools, resources etc will vary, NOT the game mechanics

it's like they have based all the tribes on one skeletal model

there is variance within the tribes in terms of stature, appearance, stats etc, but doing so didn't require building 12 individual models, it meant tweaking parameters 12 times once the base model was made

this in turn makes what many see as another complex part of the game, "genetic mutations" where couples of different tribes have a child , infinitely simpler to implement

now let's get back to discussing the mechanics of the crafting system, and save all the pissing and moaning about them never going to be able to put in ABC mechanic in XYZ time for any of the numerous threads already dealing with the matter, or perhaps even start a new one?

mystichaze · April 2018

You brought up some good points Dleatherus. Like the example of the Tribe model, I don't see any reason that the crafting systems can't work the same. It would certainly cut down the workload for them when implementing all the different crafting systems. I hadn't thought about it that way but it definitely makes sense.

Asm0deus · April 2018

While this sounds interesting it is certainly ambitious. To me it looks almost like each "profession" or role you may choose to do or roleplay will be almost like a game in of itself which seems like a whole lot for a small team with a small budget to be able to pull off.

People scoff at SC for wanting to do a game which is basically flight sim mechanics and fps type mechanics with few others thrown in as some believe this is preposterous or not very likely to be possible and they have a much bigger budget than CoE.

Will be keeping an eye on this and see how it develops as I think they may have to tone down some of their ambitions at some point if this is ever going to come to fruition.

Mendel · April 2018

Dleatherus said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Dleatherus said:

Stuff

Based on what we have seen regarding their development. What gives you reason to believe that they will be able to implement this, as described, across all their crafting.. in roughly a year?

Help me understand why you think it's likely to happen.

the point is we beat that to death in countless other threads

the fact that it it is a system that is the common core mechanic of every skill (including combat) in the game means it doesn't have to be implemented from scratch for each profession

it means that the techniques, tools, resources etc will vary, NOT the game mechanics

it's like they have based all the tribes on one skeletal model

there is variance within the tribes in terms of stature, appearance, stats etc, but doing so didn't require building 12 individual models, it meant tweaking parameters 12 times once the base model was made

this in turn makes what many see as another complex part of the game, "genetic mutations" where couples of different tribes have a child , infinitely simpler to implement

now let's get back to discussing the mechanics of the crafting system, and save all the pissing and moaning about them never going to be able to put in ABC mechanic in XYZ time for any of the numerous threads already dealing with the matter, or perhaps even start a new one?

Actually, no one has addressed any of the questions that anyone criticizing this game have brought up. The questions / points are ignored, or shouted down. Even in your response, there was nothing referencing @Slapshot1188's point -- that these are inexperienced developers who appear to anyone with any project management or software development experience whatsoever to have undertaken far more than they can deliver. Instead, there was an attempt to change the subject to the game mechanics.

If anyone would like to defuse @Slapshot's questions, it should be simplicity to point to links where this developer has delivered on their promises. I'd love to see that, myself, as I don't believe that any such evidence exists. Even show an example of a successful complex project with inept management, like your Department of Transportation building a bridge over a major river using people with no expertise. That could make the start for a good 'argument by analogy'.

There are no mechanics to discuss. The only exists as ideas or concepts. There's no implementation that anyone can discuss at this time.

PaulChatterton · April 2018

For those wondering whether this is possible, I would have to say it is because it's not very different from crafting in Life is Feudal.

mystichaze · April 2018

I agree many of the features of CoE seem to be overly ambitious. But when you take into consideration all the things they are Not doing like NeutralEvil mentioned earlier it balances itself out.

Things that CoE focuses on are not the same as what your average Themepark games would focus on. Instead of having to focus on creating Epic Armor sets with balanced stats and the dungeons/bosses that drop them, for example, they can put their attention into the crafting systems and be balancing what the players produce instead.

Just my two cents.

Ungood · April 2018

Well one thing is for sure, they are making it so that being a smith won't be boring.

Dleatherus · April 2018

Mendel said:

Actually, no one has addressed any of the questions that anyone criticizing this game have brought up

....

There are no mechanics to discuss. The only exists as ideas or concepts. There's no implementation that anyone can discuss at this time.

then, in this particular thread, i'd like to discuss the "intended" mechanics of the crafting thread, and not see it hijacked by the same (in some cases very valid) points that are beaten to death in numerous other threads

or have somebody start a thread of 'why the crafting system in CoE is going to fail" to stand alongside all the other 'CoE is going to fail because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah'

many of those threads as i say have valid points - that isn't what is this particular thread is about

Wellspring · April 2018

Is there a TLDR version of the crafting system? I don't care enough about crafting in general to read an entire book on it.

Slapshot1188 · April 2018

Wellspring said:

Is there a TLDR version of the crafting system? I don't care enough about crafting in general to read an entire book on it.

TLDR: You will actually craft all items in real time. You move each item by hand, strike each blow with your hammer...

As an example, a Blacksmith woul light his forge,put fuel in the forge, work the bellows, grind the rock to separate out by weight, heat the ore, beat out the impurities, use tongs to grab the ore one piece at a time and place it in the forge, find the right place in the forge based on visual and audio clues, watch the visual and listen to the audio for feedback on when it’s ready, use the tongs to pick up the ore and carry it to the anvil, use the mouse to control the hammer and anvil to strike and drive out impurities, when it cools use the tongs to go take it back to the forge and reheat as above. When you eventually finish you have an iron nugget.

Of course turning that to steel has its own process and then turning any of that into a bar have more. To make say.. a sword will have far... far more steps which you can read about in the diary.

Then every skill will be similar. Or at least that’s the story.

JemAs666 · April 2018

The TLDR version seems like what maybe 5% of the player base would want to spend time doing. Especially with all the criticism with Shroud of the Avatar having no gear/weapon drops and having to craft everything. Seems very few want in depth crafting these days. EQ2 original crafting system the player could actually die if they didn't pay attention.

mystichaze · April 2018

Haha.. Sometime Slapshot you remind me of a bitter ex. No matter what SBS does, you always attempt to twist it into your negative outlook about them. Look, we get it, the game isn't for you and that is ok, but some of us are very excited about what SBS is trying to do.

Will this type of crafting be for everyone? No, as Dleatherus said it isn't something he wants to do in-game. But just as in real life we all have different interests and a more realistic crafting system is exciting for the demographic that enjoys this type of gameplay. For those that don't enjoy the system I am sure there will be plenty other things for them to do in the Game. And well if they don't like the game at all well there are plenty of other Thempark, and Sandbox games out there to choose from.

Dleatherus · April 2018

Wellspring said:

Is there a TLDR version of the crafting system? I don't care enough about crafting in general to read an entire book on it.

TLDR:

the intended crafting mechanics, regardless of profession, aren't going to be your standard mundane stuff 2,000lbs of ore into my backpack, smelt it in 20 seconds at a forge and make a legendary sword 20 seconds later with my alt

in essence it is a detailed and involved system

remember that it has been said that only 1% of players in any given profession will be legendary at any one moment in time

this is going to turn some people off, and attract others

________________________________________________________________________________________________

(further points not part of the TLDR):

i am wondering how this will end up effecting the players in general

since there are going to be NPC smiths of varying levels of craftsmanship, will the majority of players settle for something less than optimum gear

it seems that like in UO from years past, those that had the patience will make a VERY handsome profit IF they spend a LOT of time dedicated to their profession - they also become larger than normal targets for theft perhaps?

the recipe book is of interest in terms of if everything in the game can be looted, and a crafter has his book stolen, how much does he retain in terms of knowledge/techniques?

i can see high end crafters guarding their books very carefully, and perhaps even forging (yes that is also an intended skill in the game) fake recipe books so that would be theives enbd up sepnding lord knows how long screwing up what they thought were the steps to making a better than usual weapon

Slapshot1188 · April 2018

mystichaze said:

Haha.. Sometime Slapshot you remind me of a bitter ex. No matter what SBS does, you always attempt to twist it into your negative outlook about them. Look, we get it, the game isn't for you and that is ok, but some of us are very excited about what SBS is trying to do.

Will this type of crafting be for everyone? No, as Dleatherus said it isn't something he wants to do in-game. But just as in real life we all have different interests and a more realistic crafting system is exciting for the demographic that enjoys this type of gameplay. For those that don't enjoy the system I am sure there will be plenty other things for them to do in the Game. And well if they don't like the game at all well there are plenty of other Thempark, and Sandbox games out there to choose from.

You asked to focus on the mechanics. I literally described the mechanics to forge an iron Ingot as depicted in the dev diary. Now you ignore it to yet again attack Slapshot and deflect. Do you want to discuss the mechanics or not? Which part of the post you WTFed is wrong? Which mechanic did I improperly describe? The guy literally used 7 paragraphs to describe the process of making an Iron Ingot. It’s possible I mixed up a step. Maybe the tongs were before the hammer...

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How Crafting will differ in CoE, compared to more traditional MMOs

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