I'm glad I read this thread. I wasn't aware of how unhappy I was with the state of things. Dare I say enraged, even, now that I've had my eyes opened to how I felt.
The industry is not in a bad place, it's just increased in size by an order of magnitude we probably didn't expect 20-30 years ago. That is ultimately a good thing, as it means more people are investing, more people are employed, and more people are HAVING FUN. Even if the most profitable games aren't your cup of tea, there are obviously tons of people who are into them, and there are still more games being made in the indie, niche, and self-published spaces than one with a career and/or family could ever get to.
Developers are just people like you and me. They're not some malicious group of greedy suits trying to steal your money without giving you anything in return. Like any other corporate environment, they sit in meeting after meeting trying to deliver ideas that will set their product apart from the competition, and then they have to actually execute that idea well. Like any other product, not every idea sticks the landing. How much time and money do you think it took freakin' Taco Bell to put tacos with freakin' folded Chicken Patty "Shells" in their stores?
In the MMO and Always-Online market, it takes a lot of money to keep the game operating and also in active development with content coming down the pipeline. The only thing you can do if your game changes into something you no longer enjoy is to take your time and money elsewhere. If you find yourself physically unable to do that, then that's the definition of addiction.
I do need to add that I do agree with delete5230 on the direction of MMOs (and most games really).
I've just decided to take my time and money elsewhere for a while since complaining seems to get nowhere. The old saying applies here, speak with your wallet.
Well, it's not really working too well anymore. But that opens the door for maximum game play. Sooner or later, someone will take advantage of that opening.
This is true. If something closes down, it leaves the opportunity for something else to open. It could go full circle.
I don't think there's a need to wait for something to close down. The opportunity is there for someone to make anything that's not the typical modern MMO. As long as they do it well, and make something people want and enjoy playing, they have no other competition because the rest are all basically the same game with different skins.
The biggest thing to change is the level up game play. Not leveling itself so much, but the game play of leveling up as your prime play style. Log in, level up and choose from the shortlist, get expected reward, rinse/repeat, day after day.
Where's the adventure? Where's the discovery? Where's the excitement? Where's the surprises and astonishment of something totally unexpected?
Where's the thrill? Where's the meaning? It all feels so expected and contrived.
I see what you're getting at OP, unfortunately, things are the way they are because people ultimately want them to be. If you actually played things back in the early 2000s, you'll remember that no one really 'wanted' to play those games the way they were designed. They ultimately played them because there was hardly any variety or competition. Coming down to games at their core in the past, it was gamers vs developers back then which forced gamers to band together and find ways to work within an unchanging system. No one really wanted to rely on each other back then, there was just no way around it. Thus was why there was never a dent made on RMT in games back then either, there was always a demand to cut corners where people could.
I agree. Back then the complaints were pretty much the same. Balance issues, cheating, connection problems, broken content to work around. Just read some of the old forum boards. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Gaming is a relationship and like all relationships they are seldom 100% perfect. If you want them to succeed you have to focus on the good parts and not take the bad part too seriously.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Right here and now, I figured the exact reason people hate me.
People don't like being told what to do and how to think, thats a given, nothing new about that.
"Even if correct" people don't like to be told about it.
People are thinking it, I'm saying it.
It's like this: If something is on the floor and NEEDS to be picked up. People despise being told to pick it up. Even if they planned on picking it up eventually because it NEEDS to.
People here hate the crap we have now with the exception of their niche one game. The only difference being I'm saying it..... but the fact still stands, they hate the crap.
I don't think you understand what "Niche" means. But please go on, it's entertaining watching you make a fool of yourself on this site.
Right here and now, I figured the exact reason people hate me.
People don't like being told what to do and how to think, thats a given, nothing new about that.
"Even if correct" people don't like to be told about it.
People are thinking it, I'm saying it.
It's like this: If something is on the floor and NEEDS to be picked up. People despise being told to pick it up. Even if they planned on picking it up eventually because it NEEDS to.
People here hate the crap we have now with the exception of their niche one game. The only difference being I'm saying it..... but the fact still stands, they hate the crap.
I don't think you understand what "Niche" means. But please go on, it's entertaining watching you make a fool of yourself on this site.
Meh, it's not even entertaining anymore. He used to at least have an actual point to his rants(if you could find it).
Now, he's like a social media personality who's just spamming random stuff hoping his audience doesn't leave.
Every mmorpg I played, all my guildmates are quite happy. So I think it is only this forum...
Same here, at least for right now. I'm playing Legends of Aria, were all quite happy. We found our "niche" among all the crap and really enjoying it because it's a real mmorpg. Most everyone is on Discord voice, and during the day people are helping each other achieve anything needing to be accomplished that requires help. This is the content I can do until I get of little higher level. Evening around 7pm est they have something scheduled as a guild.
It's already a large organized guild, but they are looking forward to the Steam launch soon. My goal here is helping the new Steam players in the content I'm doing now.
It's not this forum !!! Since EVERYONE is on voice and not a single one of them knows what this site is. They continuously talk about how bad all other mmorpg's suck. Infact they are completely uninformed of the progress of Pantheon.
Believe it or not I keep silent during these discussions and it's a HUGE group.
This validates everything I say, so I keep my head high as you people contradict yourselfs.
At OP, As much as I don't like games being made to keep investors happy, it is what it is. Strictly go indie for a year and don't play any title that has a publicly traded company associated with it. If you can enjoy those types of games then your all set and don't have to worry about anything, if you can't then it's a you problem.
If all corporate money pulled out of the gaming industry you would be left with all small niche games. Maybe that would be better, maybe not, but the days of big budget games would be over.
Instead of me wanting the industry to change to my ideals, I have simply moved on to the SP games that I enjoy playing which means I have moved to basically playing on my console. I still play some MP games with my youngest daughter, but those are on a rotational basis and only for a couple months at a time. Don't get burned out on them that way.
Problem back in the old days there were few mmorpg.Most were made for a few million .There was a nice article on eve online and how it was made.Also about how EQ was made on a shoestring budget
Heck even WoW was back then and was the most expensive mmorpg ever made and it was made for a fraction of games like SWTOR and ESO
When WoW became such a huge success cooperate bosses opened their eyes and saw loads of $$$.
They tossed money on projects to clone WoW .Maybe some devs even wanted something new but bosses demanded clones and then when the game did not have a 1 million subs it was deemed a failure
I think we need to go back to smaller companies making mmorpg so they can have freedom to try something new and when they get 100k subs they can feel happy because they did not spent 100m+ on the game and can break even or turn a profit
So yes mmorpg are going thru a very bad time since bosses have all shifted to spending on battle royale but hopefully out of this the smaller companies can bring back the genre
denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
How many people play video games? How many of those who play video games play MMORPG's? How many of those who play MMORPG’s play one particular game? Seems to me that despite the arrogant snobs mocking delete for calling their game a niche game, he is by the definition of niche, absolutely correct in calling them niche games.
Maybe you enjoy MMO’s as they are now, but honestly, some of you sound like a bunch of battered housewives. “ No my marriage is fine; nothing is perfect. I did not need dem teeth anyway.” Some gamers don’t want to be in an abusive relationship. I play video games for entertainment, not to suffer mindless repetitive gameplay.
I do not understand how after 20 years MMO’s have not significantly improved, anyone that can still enjoy their repetitive grinding is lucky or stupid, maybe a tad of both. I also do not understand why some are so conservative that they attack others when they complain about their unhappiness with the current stagnation of video gaming design. I am particularly disgusted when people say things like “It's your fault that you do not enjoy today's crap games.” That is akin to telling a battered housewife that she should be happy with her marriage because its her fault that he hits her.
If players want the mechanics as bad as they claim to, there is plenty around to play. Essentially they claim to be willing to do just about anything to play their genre, then when you point them to something that has it they find tons of excuses for why it doesn't count.
My favorite example is Screeps. Full loot PvP that's actually fair/fun, best rewards around for high skill gameplay, lives the dream of thousands of NPCs doing their own thing constantly 24/7, gives fun territory control mechanics like building/defense planning to the individual, full out guild level wars are actually worthy of the name world wars, politics mattering, and all while having an outstanding community.
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It's worth mentioning that the reason we have Fortnite and Apex is because devs saw people playing a game as flawed as PUBG.
While the eternally ranting here, pretty just continue to prove that they're really not any. Sort of customer.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Delete, I'm pretty sure every week your opinion on things changes. One week you want an EQ clone, the next week you complain that EQ is too easy. This week you hate MMORPG companies. Obviously they are in to make maximum profit. But you can't say that they aren't reinvesting because you have absolutely no idea what money is going where in the company. You want a neverending gameplay loop? That's impossible without some form of monetisation (I also don't think a neverending gameplay loop could exist, at least in a way to keep anyone interested). If you want a product, it has to make enough money to exist. Content costs money to make, expansions cost money to make.
The people that play the games and are happy have found the game they enjoy. You can't assume that if you take the game away that they would be in the same pool as you, because they might easily find another game. Find the game you enjoy, if you don't enjoy any of the games, move onto another genre. There are games for every niche, there is a huge selection right now. The biggest selection in MMO's ever.
denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
How many people play video games? How many of those who play video games play MMORPG's? How many of those who play MMORPG’s play one particular game? Seems to me that despite the arrogant snobs mocking delete for calling their game a niche game, he is by the definition of niche, absolutely correct in calling them niche games.
Maybe you enjoy MMO’s as they are now, but honestly, some of you sound like a bunch of battered housewives. “ No my marriage is fine; nothing is perfect. I did not need dem teeth anyway.” Some gamers don’t want to be in an abusive relationship. I play video games for entertainment, not to suffer mindless repetitive gameplay.
I do not understand how after 20 years MMO’s have not significantly improved, anyone that can still enjoy their repetitive grinding is lucky or stupid, maybe a tad of both. I also do not understand why some are so conservative that they attack others when they complain about their unhappiness with the current stagnation of video gaming design. I am particularly disgusted when people say things like “It's your fault that you do not enjoy today's crap games.” That is akin to telling a battered housewife that she should be happy with her marriage because its her fault that he hits her.
How have MMO's not significantly improved in 20 years? There are plenty of ways they have, you just might not see it? One example would be Action Combat. Action combat wasn't even a consideration 20 years ago, the servers could never handle that type of hit registry with a large number of players, even when Vindictus came out it was a stretch, and they had to keep it within instances.
I feel like you can look at any genre and say the same crap. "Multiplayer Shooters haven't improved in 20 years, you are still just in lobbies shooting the other team", "ARPG's haven't improved in 20 years, you are still at a fixed camera angle grinding thousands of enemies for a piece of loot". It's stupid to be superficial and judge progress on one aspect of a genre, especially when it's literally the thing that keeps people playing.
You obviously don't like MMORPGs, I don't know why you come on a forum specifically for the genre.
You can equate any two things if you oversimplify them enough. A grape is the same as the planet Mars because they are both round.
Also, everything is "niche" if you take into account the entire universe. For example, orange juice is niche if you consider all the consumable beverages on Earth. Of course, then the word loses its meaning (or "looses" if you are the OP).
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
It boils down to this. No one is happy. A select few have their niche game for the time being (ESO,WoW,FF14,GW2) but all-in-all take that game away their back in the pool with the rest of us.
It all comes down to money. I started with wanting a monthly fee, then realized it's all bad.
Standoff: -MAXIMUM PROFIT (company) -Good wholesome game (player)
I took the Liberty to find this: Wholesome- Somebody who is pure of heart, devoid of corruption or malice, modest, stable, virtuous, and all-around sweet and compassionate....... This is what we want in a game..... This will not come from Triple A.... Never !!
I want a monthly fee but their is "some golden rules attached". - The game has to have a long run never ending cycle of entertainment to it. Obviously the player will get tired of it, but the potential has to be their. - The company or developer needs to re-invest proceeds. It seems they are unwilling to do that other than fixing mandatory bugs. Instead they spit out expansions and sell their game to the player all over again.
Unfortunately both golden rules are not even a thought, but instead maximum profit.
WITH MAXIMUM PROFIT BEING THE COMPANIES GOAL. THIS LEAVES THE MMORPG PLAYER WITH ALL BAD OPTIONS.
A word for the optimist: You opinion can't count. Go ahead and eat your spoiled tuna sandwich and not complain
Your post is way off.
First of all, as people have pointed out, those games you mentioned are "niche." Maybe you meant something more akin to "people have their favorite games?"
Secondly, you say "take those away and they are with the rest of us."
That doesn't make any sense. What it implies is that there are people happy with their games. Unlike you. So OF COURSE you take somethign away that makes them content they are going to be like you.
You're trying to say that everyone is unhappy but clearly there are people who ARE happy.
And of course it comes down to money. It always has. gamerz seem to think that things should just go back to two guys in their basement making a game. Well you know what? It can and hardly anyone will play it. People will say it looks cheap or old because it can't compete with big money games.
Project Gorgon is a two developer game. Go play it. Don't like it because it is still in development and might always remain in development? Well tough, that's what happens where you don't have money as a developer.
Companies don't reinvest in their games? Of course they do. They also use that money to make new games because once their other games start waning in sales they have to come up with something new or else go out of business. But they will continue to invest in their games in order to keep them profitable right up to the point when the games aren't as profitable as they need to be.
But if it's an indy game they might barely make enough to keep going. Oh right, it's all about the money.
People want high quality games but complain about the systems/environment that are required to make "high quality games.
But you know what? There are plenty of smaller games out there. Go play them. I was playing Ryzom last night and having a blast. Go try that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
How have MMO's not significantly improved in 20 years? There are plenty of ways they have, you just might not see it? One example would be Action Combat. Action combat wasn't even a consideration 20 years ago, the servers could never handle that type of hit registry with a large number of players, even when Vindictus came out it was a stretch, and they had to keep it within instances.
I feel like you can look at any genre and say the same crap. "Multiplayer Shooters haven't improved in 20 years, you are still just in lobbies shooting the other team", "ARPG's haven't improved in 20 years, you are still at a fixed camera angle grinding thousands of enemies for a piece of loot". It's stupid to be superficial and judge progress on one aspect of a genre, especially when it's literally the thing that keeps people playing.
You obviously don't like MMORPGs, I don't know why you come on a forum specifically for the genre.
Action combat is not an improvement for many players. Many other genres have (much better) action combat. What set mmorpgs apart was playing a role with massive numbers of people. About the only thing these games have improved over the years is how to make the most money by spending the least amount possible.
What happened to the big worlds with thriving communities that helped each other with things besides combat and loot? Where are the dungeon masters? Are we still completing the same NPC missions like in WoW? Such an improvement over the EQ camping system, right? Because now you dont even need other players for that either. The genre has been taking steps backwards in terms of community and the biggest reason for that (imo) is that they try too hard to emulate other (single-player) genres in order to make more money.
Just because nearly all the games in the genre suck, doesnt mean people don’t like MMORPGs, it's that most people still do not really known what that genre is supposed to consist of, especially those trying to produce them, ironically. Or maybe there is just too much argument over the term to make anyone happy anymore.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
How have MMO's not significantly improved in 20 years? There are plenty of ways they have, you just might not see it? One example would be Action Combat. Action combat wasn't even a consideration 20 years ago, the servers could never handle that type of hit registry with a large number of players, even when Vindictus came out it was a stretch, and they had to keep it within instances.
I feel like you can look at any genre and say the same crap. "Multiplayer Shooters haven't improved in 20 years, you are still just in lobbies shooting the other team", "ARPG's haven't improved in 20 years, you are still at a fixed camera angle grinding thousands of enemies for a piece of loot". It's stupid to be superficial and judge progress on one aspect of a genre, especially when it's literally the thing that keeps people playing.
You obviously don't like MMORPGs, I don't know why you come on a forum specifically for the genre.
Action combat is not an improvement for many players. Many other genres have (much better) action combat. What set mmorpgs apart was playing a role with massive numbers of people. About the only thing these games have improved over the years is how to make the most money by spending the least amount possible.
What happened to the big worlds with thriving communities that helped each other with things besides combat and loot? Where are the dungeon masters? Are we still completing the same NPC missions like in WoW? Such an improvement over the EQ camping system, right? Because now you dont even need other players for that either. The genre has been taking steps backwards in terms of community and the biggest reason for that (imo) is that they try too hard to emulate other (single-player) genres in order to make more money.
I was using action combat as an example because server technology wouldn't be able to handle that type of hit registration on a massive scale back then. But even in your context, action combat could be considered evolving in the genre, it isn't stagnant if a significant change to how the game is played is introduced. When a genre evolves things happen that people do and do not like, still proving the genre has moved from where it originally was.
What game has had dungeon masters? Why would an MMORPG have a dungeon master. You want a dungeon master? Go play D&D, go play any table top game. The dungeon masters are the developers. I guess you can consider the 3 or 4 games that allowed player made dungeons to have "dungeon masters".
There are plenty of big worlds with thriving communities. Look at ESO, look at FFXIV, both of those I literally cannot go to a quest hub without finding at least 3 other players. At every level. I have communicated more in FFXIV than I have in any other game, I have more interactions in grouping than I ever have, and people initiate discussions quite often.
I would say NPC missions are a significant improvement over the EQ camping system, because sitting in one spot for 20 hours straight every day just to gain a couple of levels sucks. The only benefit was you could sit there and chat with the other members of your group. But there are games trying to do things differently. Look at how GW2 did it. I agree that questing systems could be better, but even looking at that, it's improved significantly over time.
Just because the genre isn't what you want it to be doesn't mean it's the same as it's always been. Sure there is plenty of room for improvement, people just backed themselves into a corner with every feature they want. The games that have crazy new ideas, usually have some aspect that pisses off the people looking for new features and they avoid the game.
denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
How many people play video games? How many of those who play video games play MMORPG's? How many of those who play MMORPG’s play one particular game? Seems to me that despite the arrogant snobs mocking delete for calling their game a niche game, he is by the definition of niche, absolutely correct in calling them niche games.
Maybe you enjoy MMO’s as they are now, but honestly, some of you sound like a bunch of battered housewives. “ No my marriage is fine; nothing is perfect. I did not need dem teeth anyway.” Some gamers don’t want to be in an abusive relationship. I play video games for entertainment, not to suffer mindless repetitive gameplay.
I do not understand how after 20 years MMO’s have not significantly improved, anyone that can still enjoy their repetitive grinding is lucky or stupid, maybe a tad of both. I also do not understand why some are so conservative that they attack others when they complain about their unhappiness with the current stagnation of video gaming design. I am particularly disgusted when people say things like “It's your fault that you do not enjoy today's crap games.” That is akin to telling a battered housewife that she should be happy with her marriage because its her fault that he hits her.
How have MMO's not significantly improved in 20 years? There are plenty of ways they have, you just might not see it? One example would be Action Combat. Action combat wasn't even a consideration 20 years ago, the servers could never handle that type of hit registry with a large number of players, even when Vindictus came out it was a stretch, and they had to keep it within instances.
I feel like you can look at any genre and say the same crap. "Multiplayer Shooters haven't improved in 20 years, you are still just in lobbies shooting the other team", "ARPG's haven't improved in 20 years, you are still at a fixed camera angle grinding thousands of enemies for a piece of loot". It's stupid to be superficial and judge progress on one aspect of a genre, especially when it's literally the thing that keeps people playing.
You obviously don't like MMORPGs, I don't know why you come on a forum specifically for the genre.
They haven't. Games like EQ evolved. Much of what was in WoW at release had already been added to EverQuest before it even hit the market. Quest Hubs? Objective-based Dungeon Runs? etc. That was in Gates of Discord and Omens of War. Dragons of Norrath went "full WoW" before WoW was even on the market - where they put the hub in Lava Moutains and people went off to get their stuff.
Same thing for instances (i.e. LDoN). Ditto for instances of different difficulties (LDoN, and others). Same thing with set-based itemization (there since Velious).
A lot of what people think is "new" in newer MMORPGs is not even close to being new. It's 15+ year old tech that simply has a different skin slapped over it. The algorithms are newer, the graphics are better... but that's about it. In the end, the gameplay experience is the same, except instead of grinding MOBs for extra XP (like in EQ), you now have quests that pop up on a map on a schedule to grind, among other things.
If you played EQ back in 2003-2004, you were already burnt out on what games like GW2, ESO, WoW, and others had to offer by the time they hit the market. It's the same formula, just with a different skin. This is why games like Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, and others actually did a great deal to try to "detour" from that formula... but those games didn't work so well when they were released (for multiple reasons).
Outside of that, the only major changes were the lore, combat systems, and class design (if we're even going to say that, since EQ got an AA system back in Shadows of Luclin).
There is not much to write home about with these games.
The only games that have really changed things up are those like Destiny - largely due to the FPS-nature of those games force it to be different enough to have a bit more staying power with players who have burnt out on MMO 1.0. But if you aren't a PvPer in those games, it becomes something very similar to the WoW World Quest grind and raiding treadmill...
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Lastly, this forum reports on games like Overwatch, Path of Exile, Diablo III, and others which aren't necessarily MMORPGs... so that last statement of yours is rife with ignorance.
People who have quit MMORPGs still find tons of content on this site - largely because the site has expanded to compensate for how stagnant the MMORPG market is... unless they want to waste all of their time covering junk games.
Every mmorpg I played, all my guildmates are quite happy. So I think it is only this forum...
Same here, at least for right now. I'm playing Legends of Aria, were all quite happy. We found our "niche" among all the crap and really enjoying it because it's a real mmorpg. Most everyone is on Discord voice, and during the day people are helping each other achieve anything needing to be accomplished that requires help. This is the content I can do until I get of little higher level. Evening around 7pm est they have something scheduled as a guild.
It's already a large organized guild, but they are looking forward to the Steam launch soon. My goal here is helping the new Steam players in the content I'm doing now.
It's not this forum !!! Since EVERYONE is on voice and not a single one of them knows what this site is. They continuously talk about how bad all other mmorpg's suck. In fact they are completely uninformed of the progress of Pantheon.
Believe it or not I keep silent during these discussions and it's a HUGE group.
This validates everything I say, so I keep my head high as you people contradict yourselfs.
Consider this, perhaps the present isn't as different from the past as you believe.
In playing LoA you and your guildmates have found a "real MMORPG" to enjoy. Also, many of you believe all other MMORPGS "suck."
Would it surprise you to know when I first joined DAOC back in 2002, the veterans already there slagged on EQ1, UO, AC, L1, etc. saying how much they all "sucked" compared to the "glory" DAOC brought to the genre.
To this day there are those who claim no RVR game created in the past 18 years has ever come close to those early days and classic rules freeshards draw more players than the modern live version.
Also, when I told people my first MMORPG was Lineage 1 the Bloodpledge many had never heard of it. Nor were they aware L2 was on the way, along with AC2 and a few others.
My point is, in the early days everyone was playing "niche" MMORPGs with no more than 100K to 500K subscribers.
So today everyone is off playing their current favorite MMORPG, likely in smaller "niches" of....10K to 500K, not much different, and everyone believes their choice is the "real" thing, while all others are pretenders.
WOW was a market aberration which distorted your perception of what size of games should be delivered.
At the end of the day, we are closer to the early days than ever before, with a number of small indies trying to deliver a more targeted experience.
The era of AAA MMORPGs is over and good riddance I say.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
How many people play video games? How many of those who play video games play MMORPG's? How many of those who play MMORPG’s play one particular game? Seems to me that despite the arrogant snobs mocking delete for calling their game a niche game, he is by the definition of niche, absolutely correct in calling them niche games.
Maybe you enjoy MMO’s as they are now, but honestly, some of you sound like a bunch of battered housewives. “ No my marriage is fine; nothing is perfect. I did not need dem teeth anyway.” Some gamers don’t want to be in an abusive relationship. I play video games for entertainment, not to suffer mindless repetitive gameplay.
I do not understand how after 20 years MMO’s have not significantly improved, anyone that can still enjoy their repetitive grinding is lucky or stupid, maybe a tad of both. I also do not understand why some are so conservative that they attack others when they complain about their unhappiness with the current stagnation of video gaming design. I am particularly disgusted when people say things like “It's your fault that you do not enjoy today's crap games.” That is akin to telling a battered housewife that she should be happy with her marriage because its her fault that he hits her.
How have MMO's not significantly improved in 20 years? There are plenty of ways they have, you just might not see it? One example would be Action Combat. Action combat wasn't even a consideration 20 years ago, the servers could never handle that type of hit registry with a large number of players, even when Vindictus came out it was a stretch, and they had to keep it within instances.
I feel like you can look at any genre and say the same crap. "Multiplayer Shooters haven't improved in 20 years, you are still just in lobbies shooting the other team", "ARPG's haven't improved in 20 years, you are still at a fixed camera angle grinding thousands of enemies for a piece of loot". It's stupid to be superficial and judge progress on one aspect of a genre, especially when it's literally the thing that keeps people playing.
You obviously don't like MMORPGs, I don't know why you come on a forum specifically for the genre.
They haven't. Games like EQ evolved. Much of what was in WoW at release had already been added to EverQuest before it even hit the market. Quest Hubs? Objective-based Dungeon Runs? etc. That was in Dragons of Norrath. Where they put the hub in Lava Moutains and people went off to get their stuff.
Same thing for instances (LDoN, OoW, etc.). Ditto for instances of different difficulties. Same thing with set-based itemization (there since Velious).
A lot of what people think is "new" in newer MMORPGs is nto new. It's 15+ eyar old tech that simply has a different skin slapped over it.
If you played EQ back in 2003-2004, you were already burnt out on what games like GW2, ESO, WoW, and others had to offer. It's the same formula, just with a different skin.
The only major changes were the lore, combat systems, and class design (if we're even going to say that, since EQ got an AA system back in Shadows of Luclin).
There is not much to write home about with these games.
The only games that have really changed things up are those like Destiny - largely due to the FPS-nature of those games force it to be different enough to have a bit more staying power with players who have burnt out on MMO 1.0.
Also, this forum reports on games like Overwatch, Path of Exile, Diablo III, and others which aren't necessarily MMORPGs... so that last statement of yours is rife with ignorance.
People who have quit MMORPGs still find tons of content on this site - largely because the site has expanded to compensate for how stagnant the MMORPG market is... unless they want to waste all of their time covering junk games.
You are still failing to say what you want to happen in MMORPG's as a whole. It sounds like you want them to evolve into a different genre. A game genre doesn't drastically change how it is interpreted ever. That's what a genre is, a formula to determine what something is considered. When a big change happens, it usually creates a new genre. MMOFPS, ARPG, CRPG, hell most genres were from a prior genre evolving in a different path.
Them adding loot systems into FPS games morphed both the FPS genre and the MMO genre with games like Destiny. But then it's not considered either of the genres.
Based on your argument, you can say the same about any genre still. FPS games haven't evolved, they are using dated ideas, the only thing that has changed is the combat systems and lore.
At this point it's going to delve into semantics and what is considered to be a drastic change, but these are all just personal opinions. I think the genre as a whole has evolved quite a bit from the start. Little changes, reskins, new combat systems, literally everything that makes new games what they are, is a change.
DAoC was nice because it was different. But the actual PvP was tragically bad, and not even close to balanced. The class design was not that good. It simply offered a niche for people who didn't want to be tied primarily to PvE - and those people deserved to have that choice.
The people who say DAoC was the best the genre had to offer did so for the same reason people say this about the things they prefer: Bias.
If you actually played DAoC, you could clearly see the gameplay wasn't anywhere near as polished as EverQuest; and even the graphics were worse, despite it releasing later (but I think this has more to do with SOE updating their character models and graphics engine more).
denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
How many people play video games? How many of those who play video games play MMORPG's? How many of those who play MMORPG’s play one particular game? Seems to me that despite the arrogant snobs mocking delete for calling their game a niche game, he is by the definition of niche, absolutely correct in calling them niche games.
Maybe you enjoy MMO’s as they are now, but honestly, some of you sound like a bunch of battered housewives. “ No my marriage is fine; nothing is perfect. I did not need dem teeth anyway.” Some gamers don’t want to be in an abusive relationship. I play video games for entertainment, not to suffer mindless repetitive gameplay.
I do not understand how after 20 years MMO’s have not significantly improved, anyone that can still enjoy their repetitive grinding is lucky or stupid, maybe a tad of both. I also do not understand why some are so conservative that they attack others when they complain about their unhappiness with the current stagnation of video gaming design. I am particularly disgusted when people say things like “It's your fault that you do not enjoy today's crap games.” That is akin to telling a battered housewife that she should be happy with her marriage because its her fault that he hits her.
How have MMO's not significantly improved in 20 years? There are plenty of ways they have, you just might not see it? One example would be Action Combat. Action combat wasn't even a consideration 20 years ago, the servers could never handle that type of hit registry with a large number of players, even when Vindictus came out it was a stretch, and they had to keep it within instances.
I feel like you can look at any genre and say the same crap. "Multiplayer Shooters haven't improved in 20 years, you are still just in lobbies shooting the other team", "ARPG's haven't improved in 20 years, you are still at a fixed camera angle grinding thousands of enemies for a piece of loot". It's stupid to be superficial and judge progress on one aspect of a genre, especially when it's literally the thing that keeps people playing.
You obviously don't like MMORPGs, I don't know why you come on a forum specifically for the genre.
They haven't. Games like EQ evolved. Much of what was in WoW at release had already been added to EverQuest before it even hit the market. Quest Hubs? Objective-based Dungeon Runs? etc. That was in Dragons of Norrath. Where they put the hub in Lava Moutains and people went off to get their stuff.
Same thing for instances (LDoN, OoW, etc.). Ditto for instances of different difficulties. Same thing with set-based itemization (there since Velious).
A lot of what people think is "new" in newer MMORPGs is nto new. It's 15+ eyar old tech that simply has a different skin slapped over it.
If you played EQ back in 2003-2004, you were already burnt out on what games like GW2, ESO, WoW, and others had to offer. It's the same formula, just with a different skin.
The only major changes were the lore, combat systems, and class design (if we're even going to say that, since EQ got an AA system back in Shadows of Luclin).
There is not much to write home about with these games.
The only games that have really changed things up are those like Destiny - largely due to the FPS-nature of those games force it to be different enough to have a bit more staying power with players who have burnt out on MMO 1.0.
Also, this forum reports on games like Overwatch, Path of Exile, Diablo III, and others which aren't necessarily MMORPGs... so that last statement of yours is rife with ignorance.
People who have quit MMORPGs still find tons of content on this site - largely because the site has expanded to compensate for how stagnant the MMORPG market is... unless they want to waste all of their time covering junk games.
You are still failing to say what you want to happen in MMORPG's as a whole. It sounds like you want them to evolve into a different genre. A game genre doesn't drastically change how it is interpreted ever. That's what a genre is, a formula to determine what something is considered. When a big change happens, it usually creates a new genre. MMOFPS, ARPG, CRPG, hell most genres were from a prior genre evolving in a different path.
Them adding loot systems into FPS games morphed both the FPS genre and the MMO genre with games like Destiny. But then it's not considered either of the genres.
Based on your argument, you can say the same about any genre still. FPS games haven't evolved, they are using dated ideas, the only thing that has changed is the combat systems and lore.
At this point it's going to delve into semantics and what is considered to be a drastic change, but these are all just personal opinions. I think the genre as a whole has evolved quite a bit from the start. Little changes, reskins, new combat systems, literally everything that makes new games what they are, is a change.
I've already stated where I think MMORPGs will need to go to reboot the genre... VR.
Once that tech becomes affordable/mainstream and games move to it, I think MMORPGs are going to be a great genre to take advantage of that.
What I wrote aren't personal opinions. You can log into the games and see these systems, and you can look at the change log across expansion releases to see where those changes came from.
What WoW brought to the genre was not necessarily content design, but accessibility. The biggest change being the deletion of grind-based leveling and a great shift towards Quest-Based Leveling (early WoW wasn't actually a little harder, but this eased up pretty quickly).
EQ2 went the other direction. The game was full of quest hubs, but it was still designed with a strong bias towards groups. Players complained and left until they nerfed it to be more like WoW.
The changes in the games themselves were not that drastic. The major changes in MMORPGs occurred in the player bases they were attracting. That is where all of the growth came from, which is why the older games got niched off while the newer ones quickly grew to player base sizes larger than the "peaks" of the games that preceded them.
Comments
Developers are just people like you and me. They're not some malicious group of greedy suits trying to steal your money without giving you anything in return. Like any other corporate environment, they sit in meeting after meeting trying to deliver ideas that will set their product apart from the competition, and then they have to actually execute that idea well. Like any other product, not every idea sticks the landing. How much time and money do you think it took freakin' Taco Bell to put tacos with freakin' folded Chicken Patty "Shells" in their stores?
In the MMO and Always-Online market, it takes a lot of money to keep the game operating and also in active development with content coming down the pipeline. The only thing you can do if your game changes into something you no longer enjoy is to take your time and money elsewhere. If you find yourself physically unable to do that, then that's the definition of addiction.
The biggest thing to change is the level up game play. Not leveling itself so much, but the game play of leveling up as your prime play style.
Log in, level up and choose from the shortlist, get expected reward, rinse/repeat, day after day.
Where's the adventure? Where's the discovery? Where's the excitement? Where's the surprises and astonishment of something totally unexpected?
Where's the thrill?
Where's the meaning?
It all feels so expected and contrived.
Once upon a time....
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I'm playing Legends of Aria, were all quite happy. We found our "niche" among all the crap and really enjoying it because it's a real mmorpg. Most everyone is on Discord voice, and during the day people are helping each other achieve anything needing to be accomplished that requires help. This is the content I can do until I get of little higher level. Evening around 7pm est they have something scheduled as a guild.
It's already a large organized guild, but they are looking forward to the Steam launch soon. My goal here is helping the new Steam players in the content I'm doing now.
It's not this forum !!!
Since EVERYONE is on voice and not a single one of them knows what this site is. They continuously talk about how bad all other mmorpg's suck. Infact they are completely uninformed of the progress of Pantheon.
Believe it or not I keep silent during these discussions and it's a HUGE group.
This validates everything I say, so I keep my head high as you people contradict yourselfs.
adjective
adjective: niche
1.
denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
How many people play video games? How many of those who play video games play MMORPG's? How many of those who play MMORPG’s play one particular game? Seems to me that despite the arrogant snobs mocking delete for calling their game a niche game, he is by the definition of niche, absolutely correct in calling them niche games.
Maybe you enjoy MMO’s as they are now, but honestly, some of you sound like a bunch of battered housewives. “ No my marriage is fine; nothing is perfect. I did not need dem teeth anyway.” Some gamers don’t want to be in an abusive relationship. I play video games for entertainment, not to suffer mindless repetitive gameplay.
I do not understand how after 20 years MMO’s have not significantly improved, anyone that can still enjoy their repetitive grinding is lucky or stupid, maybe a tad of both. I also do not understand why some are so conservative that they attack others when they complain about their unhappiness with the current stagnation of video gaming design. I am particularly disgusted when people say things like “It's your fault that you do not enjoy today's crap games.” That is akin to telling a battered housewife that she should be happy with her marriage because its her fault that he hits her.
My favorite example is Screeps. Full loot PvP that's actually fair/fun, best rewards around for high skill gameplay, lives the dream of thousands of NPCs doing their own thing constantly 24/7, gives fun territory control mechanics like building/defense planning to the individual, full out guild level wars are actually worthy of the name world wars, politics mattering, and all while having an outstanding community.
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It's worth mentioning that the reason we have Fortnite and Apex is because devs saw people playing a game as flawed as PUBG.
While the eternally ranting here, pretty just continue to prove that they're really not any. Sort of customer.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
The people that play the games and are happy have found the game they enjoy. You can't assume that if you take the game away that they would be in the same pool as you, because they might easily find another game. Find the game you enjoy, if you don't enjoy any of the games, move onto another genre. There are games for every niche, there is a huge selection right now. The biggest selection in MMO's ever.
I feel like you can look at any genre and say the same crap. "Multiplayer Shooters haven't improved in 20 years, you are still just in lobbies shooting the other team", "ARPG's haven't improved in 20 years, you are still at a fixed camera angle grinding thousands of enemies for a piece of loot". It's stupid to be superficial and judge progress on one aspect of a genre, especially when it's literally the thing that keeps people playing.
You obviously don't like MMORPGs, I don't know why you come on a forum specifically for the genre.
Also, everything is "niche" if you take into account the entire universe. For example, orange juice is niche if you consider all the consumable beverages on Earth. Of course, then the word loses its meaning (or "looses" if you are the OP).
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What happened to the big worlds with thriving communities that helped each other with things besides combat and loot? Where are the dungeon masters? Are we still completing the same NPC missions like in WoW? Such an improvement over the EQ camping system, right? Because now you dont even need other players for that either. The genre has been taking steps backwards in terms of community and the biggest reason for that (imo) is that they try too hard to emulate other (single-player) genres in order to make more money.
Just because nearly all the games in the genre suck, doesnt mean people don’t like MMORPGs, it's that most people still do not really known what that genre is supposed to consist of, especially those trying to produce them, ironically. Or maybe there is just too much argument over the term to make anyone happy anymore.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
What game has had dungeon masters? Why would an MMORPG have a dungeon master. You want a dungeon master? Go play D&D, go play any table top game. The dungeon masters are the developers. I guess you can consider the 3 or 4 games that allowed player made dungeons to have "dungeon masters".
There are plenty of big worlds with thriving communities. Look at ESO, look at FFXIV, both of those I literally cannot go to a quest hub without finding at least 3 other players. At every level. I have communicated more in FFXIV than I have in any other game, I have more interactions in grouping than I ever have, and people initiate discussions quite often.
I would say NPC missions are a significant improvement over the EQ camping system, because sitting in one spot for 20 hours straight every day just to gain a couple of levels sucks. The only benefit was you could sit there and chat with the other members of your group. But there are games trying to do things differently. Look at how GW2 did it. I agree that questing systems could be better, but even looking at that, it's improved significantly over time.
Just because the genre isn't what you want it to be doesn't mean it's the same as it's always been. Sure there is plenty of room for improvement, people just backed themselves into a corner with every feature they want. The games that have crazy new ideas, usually have some aspect that pisses off the people looking for new features and they avoid the game.
Same thing for instances (i.e. LDoN). Ditto for instances of different difficulties (LDoN, and others). Same thing with set-based itemization (there since Velious).
A lot of what people think is "new" in newer MMORPGs is not even close to being new. It's 15+ year old tech that simply has a different skin slapped over it. The algorithms are newer, the graphics are better... but that's about it. In the end, the gameplay experience is the same, except instead of grinding MOBs for extra XP (like in EQ), you now have quests that pop up on a map on a schedule to grind, among other things.
If you played EQ back in 2003-2004, you were already burnt out on what games like GW2, ESO, WoW, and others had to offer by the time they hit the market. It's the same formula, just with a different skin. This is why games like Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, and others actually did a great deal to try to "detour" from that formula... but those games didn't work so well when they were released (for multiple reasons).
Outside of that, the only major changes were the lore, combat systems, and class design (if we're even going to say that, since EQ got an AA system back in Shadows of Luclin).
There is not much to write home about with these games.
The only games that have really changed things up are those like Destiny - largely due to the FPS-nature of those games force it to be different enough to have a bit more staying power with players who have burnt out on MMO 1.0. But if you aren't a PvPer in those games, it becomes something very similar to the WoW World Quest grind and raiding treadmill...
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Lastly, this forum reports on games like Overwatch, Path of Exile, Diablo III, and others which aren't necessarily MMORPGs... so that last statement of yours is rife with ignorance.
People who have quit MMORPGs still find tons of content on this site - largely because the site has expanded to compensate for how stagnant the MMORPG market is... unless they want to waste all of their time covering junk games.
In playing LoA you and your guildmates have found a "real MMORPG" to enjoy. Also, many of you believe all other MMORPGS "suck."
Would it surprise you to know when I first joined DAOC back in 2002, the veterans already there slagged on EQ1, UO, AC, L1, etc. saying how much they all "sucked" compared to the "glory" DAOC brought to the genre.
To this day there are those who claim no RVR game created in the past 18 years has ever come close to those early days and classic rules freeshards draw more players than the modern live version.
Also, when I told people my first MMORPG was Lineage 1 the Bloodpledge many had never heard of it. Nor were they aware L2 was on the way, along with AC2 and a few others.
My point is, in the early days everyone was playing "niche" MMORPGs with no more than 100K to 500K subscribers.
So today everyone is off playing their current favorite MMORPG, likely in smaller "niches" of....10K to 500K, not much different, and everyone believes their choice is the "real" thing, while all others are pretenders.
WOW was a market aberration which distorted your perception of what size of games should be delivered.
At the end of the day, we are closer to the early days than ever before, with a number of small indies trying to deliver a more targeted experience.
The era of AAA MMORPGs is over and good riddance I say.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Them adding loot systems into FPS games morphed both the FPS genre and the MMO genre with games like Destiny. But then it's not considered either of the genres.
Based on your argument, you can say the same about any genre still. FPS games haven't evolved, they are using dated ideas, the only thing that has changed is the combat systems and lore.
At this point it's going to delve into semantics and what is considered to be a drastic change, but these are all just personal opinions. I think the genre as a whole has evolved quite a bit from the start. Little changes, reskins, new combat systems, literally everything that makes new games what they are, is a change.
The people who say DAoC was the best the genre had to offer did so for the same reason people say this about the things they prefer: Bias.
If you actually played DAoC, you could clearly see the gameplay wasn't anywhere near as polished as EverQuest; and even the graphics were worse, despite it releasing later (but I think this has more to do with SOE updating their character models and graphics engine more).
Once that tech becomes affordable/mainstream and games move to it, I think MMORPGs are going to be a great genre to take advantage of that.
What I wrote aren't personal opinions. You can log into the games and see these systems, and you can look at the change log across expansion releases to see where those changes came from.
What WoW brought to the genre was not necessarily content design, but accessibility. The biggest change being the deletion of grind-based leveling and a great shift towards Quest-Based Leveling (early WoW wasn't actually a little harder, but this eased up pretty quickly).
EQ2 went the other direction. The game was full of quest hubs, but it was still designed with a strong bias towards groups. Players complained and left until they nerfed it to be more like WoW.
The changes in the games themselves were not that drastic. The major changes in MMORPGs occurred in the player bases they were attracting. That is where all of the growth came from, which is why the older games got niched off while the newer ones quickly grew to player base sizes larger than the "peaks" of the games that preceded them.