Originally posted by Hohbein Originally posted by AlexAmore Physical punishment is not the answer, it's a sign of weakness in the parent. I can't believe this primitive behavior is still acceptable. You guys never know, those kids you love to hate may be the ones who are being violently punished...and so they do things that they see their parents doing to them...being violent. It's pretty common knowledge that kids mimic their parents to a large degree. So if the parents are violent, they will be too. Yes physical punishment is violence. It's funny because people are sent to jail because they hit a woman for example....but if they hit their children... "Their good parents". So much hypocrisy.
I hate to say it, but people like you are exactly why the world is in this state. I agree, hitting your children is 'primitive' behaviour. But who says primitive behaviour is wrong? We humans are always so quick to play our 'we're human, we can speak, therefore we have no primal instincts' card. Its bullshit, pure and simple. Just as finding women attractive and wanting to hump them is one of my primal instincts, so too was knowing i've done wrong when i was hit by my parents. Of course, children that are beaten on a regular basis for absolutely no reason will grow up to be fucked up freaks, I 100% agree with that. I'm not talking about beating kids constantly for absolutely no reason, I'm talking about a swift slap around the back of the legs when your kid swears at you, or hits somebody, or stamps on a toad or something. It's hardly enough to grow the kid into some wife beating freak, it's simply enough to let them associate pain with doing things wrong (a highly valuable life lesson). I was quite a pain in the arse as a kid, for sure. I honestly don't think I'd have turned out as I have if my parents weren't willing to smack me from time to time. When I was young I feared doing things wrong, because I knew my dad had a swift backhand and it stung for hours, therefore I'd THINK before doing anything I knew could result in pain. It's the same with all creatures, just as you might train your dog by giving him a gental slap when he chases a cat, so too you should train your children using the same method. Children, afterall, have far less humanity than even the savagest of animals, without this inhumanity being countered in the early years of their lives, they grow up to be truely screwed up people. Such as peace protestors and the like. As for your comment about 'people are sent to jail when they hit a woman, yet they are good parents when they hit their child'.... It's a COMPLETELY different context, don't be so rediculous. Beating a woman up isn't even vaguely similar to giving your child a sharp slap across the legs for doing something wrong, is it? If you honestly think it is, then I think you are the one with issues (most probably because you weren't beaten enough as a child). So if you give your woman a sharp slap across the legs for doing something wrong, is that okay? Because I know some of my friends wives act like children. And the man is supposed to be the king of the roost. So this should be okay. Don't you agree?
My main point is, humans are animals. Animals learn to associate doing bad things with negative consequences. Being told you can't play your playstation for a week is hardly the end of the world, even for a 12 year old.
This primitive punishment is something that should be used only when needed. At the moment my brother has two children, one boy and one girl. My brother's wife doesn't agree with beating your children has punishment, so when they get in trouble, they just get yelled at "Hey! Don't make me come over there!" Now, since they say that all the damn time, the children have learned to ignore that and continue to do it. There are three types of parents in this world.
Authoritarian, Permissive, and Authoritative
Authoritarian is the strict parenting where the parents make all the decisions. Permissive is the opposite to Authoritarian, they rarely give their children punishment and never assert authority. Authoritative is where the parents will give physical punishment but will also be reasonable, sort of like mixing Permissive and Authoritarian.
Now that I've explained that, I think nowdays more parents are on the Permissive track than anything. Why? Well, at the moment if you harm your child anywhere where people can see; You lose your child. It's very stupid, if you give you child a spanking in the store and this old lady sees what you're doing, well then say goodbye cause people nowdays LOVE to make a call in that a parent is punishing their child. Oh my! God forbid that we must give them a spanking. For when you spank your child don't forget what you're actually doing to them.
When you spank your child you are Increasing their chances for cancer in the future, They just might get Aids, Gas prices might go up again, More pregnant teens, and finally Walmart just might shutdown!
I'm sorry, but I can't handle that kind of crap. That's why for one thing if I ever need to go to the store and the kids have to come no matter what, then we don't eat tonight.
Originally posted by Joebert Originally posted by Rufius Yeah, alot of older women try to play the dottering old lady thing. I'd have to say people back then we're alot dumber then we are now and, just didn't realize the whole scope of the world. All they had was a radio with propaganda and some newspapers. I think the world is just more realistic now. I honestly think life is a pile of crap and, no matter what you do nothing's gonna change it. Soon it'll all come crashing down whether it be nukes, meteors, wratch of God, I dunno the sooner the better for me.
If you do a little research I think you will find people today are far less educated than just a few years ago and especially a hundred years ago. Have you looked at some of the 19th century school books? Doubt most high school students today could pass the eigth grade tests of 1900. Yeah, I know more are going to college than ever before but what do they learn? Besides how to party, drink, etc they learn how to fit into a pigeon hole they call a career. Very few anymore learn analytical thinking and reasoning. There is far more propaganda around today than ever before. We are not so informed and enlightened as we sometimes like to think. We are being shaped not only by Governments, but by business. All they want are good little workers and consumers and we have become very good at that, thereby keeping their pockets full. The attitude that "life is a pile of crap and, no matter what you do nothing's gonna change it" never helped anyone except maybe those who helped you come to that conclusion. Maybe that is why people are "meaner" today...they just don't care about themselves or others and have no restraint over their emotions or actions. Fortunately there are some who still believe in civility, have not been blinded, and care about more than what's in it for them or their "rights".
Let me know when you find those some ok?
How about my kids. Seriously. I'm not just trying to toot their horns because they're mine either. They're really awesome.
I've taught them that civic duty is by far their biggest responsibility. I do volunteer work every week. A meals on wheels program in my city. I started bringing them along with me when they were young. Now they beg to go. They want to go more than I have the time to between work and taking care of them. So they devise plans to do other volunteer work, like painting older folks houses that we go to church with.
I think if you teach kids stuff like that at an early age, it's instills a sense of duty in them. They're going to be awesome adults. I'm so proud of them.
But, I'll tell you the truth. Some of their friends go along with us on our rides, and then some of them help them with their other activities. So it's a bit contagious. But there are some kids at their school that pick on them for doing what they do. One kid said his dad told him that people who volunteer are hippies. Where does that kind of parenting come from??? I was baffled that someone would say that to their child.
============================= It all seems so stupid It makes me want to give up But why should I give up When it all seems so stupid
I hate to say it, but people like you are exactly why the world is in this state. I agree, hitting your children is 'primitive' behaviour. But who says primitive behaviour is wrong? We humans are always so quick to play our 'we're human, we can speak, therefore we have no primal instincts' card. Its bullshit, pure and simple. Just as finding women attractive and wanting to hump them is one of my primal instincts, so too was knowing i've done wrong when i was hit by my parents. Of course, children that are beaten on a regular basis for absolutely no reason will grow up to be fucked up freaks, I 100% agree with that. I'm not talking about beating kids constantly for absolutely no reason, I'm talking about a swift slap around the back of the legs when your kid swears at you, or hits somebody, or stamps on a toad or something. It's hardly enough to grow the kid into some wife beating freak, it's simply enough to let them associate pain with doing things wrong (a highly valuable life lesson). I was quite a pain in the arse as a kid, for sure. I honestly don't think I'd have turned out as I have if my parents weren't willing to smack me from time to time. When I was young I feared doing things wrong, because I knew my dad had a swift backhand and it stung for hours, therefore I'd THINK before doing anything I knew could result in pain. It's the same with all creatures, just as you might train your dog by giving him a gental slap when he chases a cat, so too you should train your children using the same method. Children, afterall, have far less humanity than even the savagest of animals, without this inhumanity being countered in the early years of their lives, they grow up to be truely screwed up people. Such as peace protestors and the like. As for your comment about 'people are sent to jail when they hit a woman, yet they are good parents when they hit their child'.... It's a COMPLETELY different context, don't be so rediculous. Beating a woman up isn't even vaguely similar to giving your child a sharp slap across the legs for doing something wrong, is it? If you honestly think it is, then I think you are the one with issues (most probably because you weren't beaten enough as a child). My main point is, humans are animals. Animals learn to associate doing bad things with negative consequences. Being told you can't play your playstation for a week is hardly the end of the world, even for a 12 year old.
I don't know if its people like me that the world is in this "state". I'm an extremely peaceful guy. I have always been nonviolent. Ghandi, Albert Einstein, Buddha, are people that are very influential in my lives(Jesus too, but i'm not even close to a christian). So just because I disagree with violence in parenting doesn't mean people like me are the reason why there is violence in this world. Infact a peaceful, loving parenting should actually take away violence in this world.
My parents never spanked me. My parents gave me lots of attention and love all the time. I never touched drugs, never got into a fight, I have very good manners, and my teachers loved in me school (not because of above average grades, but my behavior). I also hardly ever cried as a baby. I'm not bragging but i'm just showing you an example of a nonviolent upbringing. It can work.
You put words into my mouth. I said "hit a woman", then you say "beating a woman up". I mean hit in a way that children get hit. Children for example get spanked against their will, so if you spank a woman against her will then you go to jail...same with a slap against the face...ect
If you use words instead of violence then that is how your child will grow up and take care of problems in life...verbally. If your child grows up with violence then they will see that as an ok way of solving problems, so if their spouse is being difficult *whack*.
Primitive behavior is the opposite of evolved behavior. If you want to be primitive in your life, fine. That's your prerogative. I personally want to use the wonderful thing called words in my parenting (if/when i'm a parent). I want to teach my child at a very young age that using words to solve problems is the most evolved way. So when I teach him/her verbal conflict resolution, I will do it through demonstration through out his/her upbringing because we all know that is the best way to get it into her consciousness. It's similar to learning another language, the best way to do is "total immersion" from an early age. So by the time she is grown up she will have verbal conflict resolution ingrained into her mind.
Btw, being sexually attracted to a woman is not primitive or bad in any way and actually the best thing that can ever happen for humanity. If it never happened then humans would be extinct. Thats the whole reason for puberty, it's to transform you into a man and do what is totally natural...reproduce. Thats why we get that extreme feeling of needing sex, because if the feeling wasn't very potent then humanity might be in trouble. Its a survival instinct...which again isn't "primitive" as people would lead you to believe. If all these things are primitve then whats evolved? The opposite and so that would mean death to humanity and that's of course nonsense. Sexual and survival instincts are different than the primitive nature of hitting children.
I could go on but I have plenty of M.Ds, therapists, physcologists, pediatricians...ect who side with me.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by kimmar Originally posted by RufiusOriginally posted by JoebertOriginally posted by RufiusYeah, alot of older women try to play the dottering old lady thing. I'd have to say people back then we're alot dumber then we are now and, just didn't realize the whole scope of the world. All they had was a radio with propaganda and some newspapers. I think the world is just more realistic now. I honestly think life is a pile of crap and, no matter what you do nothing's gonna change it. Soon it'll all come crashing down whether it be nukes, meteors, wratch of God, I dunno the sooner the better for me. If you do a little research I think you will find people today are far less educated than just a few years ago and especially a hundred years ago. Have you looked at some of the 19th century school books? Doubt most high school students today could pass the eigth grade tests of 1900. Yeah, I know more are going to college than ever before but what do they learn? Besides how to party, drink, etc they learn how to fit into a pigeon hole they call a career. Very few anymore learn analytical thinking and reasoning. There is far more propaganda around today than ever before. We are not so informed and enlightened as we sometimes like to think. We are being shaped not only by Governments, but by business. All they want are good little workers and consumers and we have become very good at that, thereby keeping their pockets full. The attitude that "life is a pile of crap and, no matter what you do nothing's gonna change it" never helped anyone except maybe those who helped you come to that conclusion. Maybe that is why people are "meaner" today...they just don't care about themselves or others and have no restraint over their emotions or actions. Fortunately there are some who still believe in civility, have not been blinded, and care about more than what's in it for them or their "rights". Let me know when you find those some ok?How about my kids. Seriously. I'm not just trying to toot their horns because they're mine either. They're really awesome.I've taught them that civic duty is by far their biggest responsibility. I do volunteer work every week. A meals on wheels program in my city. I started bringing them along with me when they were young. Now they beg to go. They want to go more than I have the time to between work and taking care of them. So they devise plans to do other volunteer work, like painting older folks houses that we go to church with. I think if you teach kids stuff like that at an early age, it's instills a sense of duty in them. They're going to be awesome adults. I'm so proud of them. But, I'll tell you the truth. Some of their friends go along with us on our rides, and then some of them help them with their other activities. So it's a bit contagious. But there are some kids at their school that pick on them for doing what they do. One kid said his dad told him that people who volunteer are hippies. Where does that kind of parenting come from??? I was baffled that someone would say that to their child.
Kimmar, you sound like a good parent that cares about your childs future. Too many parents choose the easiest route at the moment which usually consists of "get out of here!", then in later years they wonder why their kids are angry, uncivilized and unkind.
Don't forget to throw in a good smack across the bottom when warranted so your words don't become idle threats. You and your children will be glad you did. I'm glad my parents whipped me good when I needed it because I came to know they cared enough to give me what I needed at the time. I dreaded my dads whippings but I love and respect him for it even though it was painful for us both at the time.
I feel sorry for the kids today whose parents care so little for them that they fail to correct and discipline them. They are the ones being mistreated and will pay all their lives.
Life is changing. Our views in society have started changing and what we believe in being challenged. Everywhere a person goes, something has changed, and or been challenged.
I think our society at whole is to blame. The generation that I am involved in has become one of the most Tolerant in the history of the United States. Gas prices...REDICULOUS! Yet, do you see a huge trend in people attacking this? No, because we have become tolerrant of situations that we feel we cannot control.
On top of this, parents themselves. I have seen some pretty bad things as far as parenting goes. The other day at my cousins party I heard the mother of a 3 year old girl say "STOP IT OR I WILL FUCKING SMACK YOUR GOD DAMN FACE!". To a four year old girl... Now, think about this. The daughter will grow up to be very aggressive. Or, very introverted. Either way, it leads to a negative outcome in her upbringing and mentality.
As a nation we have to stand up for what we believe in before things start to incline for a better society.
So in short. Parents need to take a little more control over what their kids are doing, telling them that what they are doing is right and wrong. Then taking a pro-active roll in ensuring that they continue to follow that basis. As well as, as a nation standing up for our values and what we believe.
The values I speak of are not biblical by their intent. The values I speak of are
QUOTE "Rules of conduct that every man of every faith can embrace!" /QUOTE -- The Boondock Saints.
How about my kids. Seriously. I'm not just trying to toot their horns because they're mine either. They're really awesome.I've taught them that civic duty is by far their biggest responsibility. I do volunteer work every week. A meals on wheels program in my city. I started bringing them along with me when they were young. Now they beg to go. They want to go more than I have the time to between work and taking care of them. So they devise plans to do other volunteer work, like painting older folks houses that we go to church with. I think if you teach kids stuff like that at an early age, it's instills a sense of duty in them. They're going to be awesome adults. I'm so proud of them. But, I'll tell you the truth. Some of their friends go along with us on our rides, and then some of them help them with their other activities. So it's a bit contagious. But there are some kids at their school that pick on them for doing what they do. One kid said his dad told him that people who volunteer are hippies. Where does that kind of parenting come from??? I was baffled that someone would say that to their child.
Kimmar, you sound like a good parent that cares about your childs future. Too many parents choose the easiest route at the moment which usually consists of "get out of here!", then in later years they wonder why their kids are angry, uncivilized and unkind.
Don't forget to throw in a good smack across the bottom when warranted so your words don't become idle threats. You and your children will be glad you did. I'm glad my parents whipped me good when I needed it because I came to know they cared enough to give me what I needed at the time. I dreaded my dads whippings but I love and respect him for it even though it was painful for us both at the time.
I feel sorry for the kids today whose parents care so little for them that they fail to correct and discipline them. They are the ones being mistreated and will pay all their lives.
You know, honestly. I've never had to spank my children. It's just never come to that.
I believe in parenting through modeling. If you model a behavior for your children and they see you do it they will want to act that way too. That's why I've taken them on the volunteer rides with me and explained why it's a good thing to help others out. And also explained to them how a community and society must think and act to function as a whole.
People in a society need to practice respect, understanding, empathy, and action. Not just feeling comfortable going to work everyday then coming home and watching t.v. There's more to involvement and responsibility than that. And trust me, volunteering is so rewarding and shows you what that involvement can do in so many wonderful ways that are unexplainable. I think that's why my children have learned to dig it so much.
Kids will listen to reason. They're not dumb, they just need to be taught why things have to be done the way they do. Society is dependent on the community as a whole working together. I think THAT'S where we've gotten off track. And if you explain the "why" to kids they'll get it.
============================= It all seems so stupid It makes me want to give up But why should I give up When it all seems so stupid
Originally posted by kimmar Originally posted by Rufius
Originally posted by Joebert Originally posted by Rufius Yeah, alot of older women try to play the dottering old lady thing. I'd have to say people back then we're alot dumber then we are now and, just didn't realize the whole scope of the world. All they had was a radio with propaganda and some newspapers. I think the world is just more realistic now. I honestly think life is a pile of crap and, no matter what you do nothing's gonna change it. Soon it'll all come crashing down whether it be nukes, meteors, wratch of God, I dunno the sooner the better for me.
If you do a little research I think you will find people today are far less educated than just a few years ago and especially a hundred years ago. Have you looked at some of the 19th century school books? Doubt most high school students today could pass the eigth grade tests of 1900. Yeah, I know more are going to college than ever before but what do they learn? Besides how to party, drink, etc they learn how to fit into a pigeon hole they call a career. Very few anymore learn analytical thinking and reasoning. There is far more propaganda around today than ever before. We are not so informed and enlightened as we sometimes like to think. We are being shaped not only by Governments, but by business. All they want are good little workers and consumers and we have become very good at that, thereby keeping their pockets full. The attitude that "life is a pile of crap and, no matter what you do nothing's gonna change it" never helped anyone except maybe those who helped you come to that conclusion. Maybe that is why people are "meaner" today...they just don't care about themselves or others and have no restraint over their emotions or actions. Fortunately there are some who still believe in civility, have not been blinded, and care about more than what's in it for them or their "rights".
Let me know when you find those some ok? How about my kids. Seriously. I'm not just trying to toot their horns because they're mine either. They're really awesome.
I've taught them that civic duty is by far their biggest responsibility. I do volunteer work every week. A meals on wheels program in my city. I started bringing them along with me when they were young. Now they beg to go. They want to go more than I have the time to between work and taking care of them. So they devise plans to do other volunteer work, like painting older folks houses that we go to church with.
I think if you teach kids stuff like that at an early age, it's instills a sense of duty in them. They're going to be awesome adults. I'm so proud of them.
But, I'll tell you the truth. Some of their friends go along with us on our rides, and then some of them help them with their other activities. So it's a bit contagious. But there are some kids at their school that pick on them for doing what they do. One kid said his dad told him that people who volunteer are hippies. Where does that kind of parenting come from??? I was baffled that someone would say that to their child.
People who volunteer are hippies?!?!?!
I can guess where that parent came up with saying something like that. Have you listened to a.m. talk radio shows lately. It's become down right evil. Showing some compassion for others has been defined as being a liberal left-wing hippy on those shows. They think that money is the most important factor of any decision you make and that just because you throw some of that cash to a charity you've done your duty. They don't know what goes on in people's lives who are down or hurt or sick because they hide away and never see it.
That is sad to say something like that to a kid. Parents like that should never have been blessed with a child.
Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by Hohbein
I hate to say it, but people like you are exactly why the world is in this state. I agree, hitting your children is 'primitive' behaviour. But who says primitive behaviour is wrong? We humans are always so quick to play our 'we're human, we can speak, therefore we have no primal instincts' card. Its bullshit, pure and simple. Just as finding women attractive and wanting to hump them is one of my primal instincts, so too was knowing i've done wrong when i was hit by my parents. Of course, children that are beaten on a regular basis for absolutely no reason will grow up to be fucked up freaks, I 100% agree with that. I'm not talking about beating kids constantly for absolutely no reason, I'm talking about a swift slap around the back of the legs when your kid swears at you, or hits somebody, or stamps on a toad or something. It's hardly enough to grow the kid into some wife beating freak, it's simply enough to let them associate pain with doing things wrong (a highly valuable life lesson). I was quite a pain in the arse as a kid, for sure. I honestly don't think I'd have turned out as I have if my parents weren't willing to smack me from time to time. When I was young I feared doing things wrong, because I knew my dad had a swift backhand and it stung for hours, therefore I'd THINK before doing anything I knew could result in pain. It's the same with all creatures, just as you might train your dog by giving him a gental slap when he chases a cat, so too you should train your children using the same method. Children, afterall, have far less humanity than even the savagest of animals, without this inhumanity being countered in the early years of their lives, they grow up to be truely screwed up people. Such as peace protestors and the like. As for your comment about 'people are sent to jail when they hit a woman, yet they are good parents when they hit their child'.... It's a COMPLETELY different context, don't be so rediculous. Beating a woman up isn't even vaguely similar to giving your child a sharp slap across the legs for doing something wrong, is it? If you honestly think it is, then I think you are the one with issues (most probably because you weren't beaten enough as a child). My main point is, humans are animals. Animals learn to associate doing bad things with negative consequences. Being told you can't play your playstation for a week is hardly the end of the world, even for a 12 year old.
I don't know if its people like me that the world is in this "state". I'm an extremely peaceful guy. I have always been nonviolent. Ghandi, Albert Einstein, Buddha, are people that are very influential in my lives(Jesus too, but i'm not even close to a christian). So just because I disagree with violence in parenting doesn't mean people like me are the reason why there is violence in this world. Infact a peaceful, loving parenting should actually take away violence in this world.
My parents never spanked me. My parents gave me lots of attention and love all the time. I never touched drugs, never got into a fight, I have very good manners, and my teachers loved in me school (not because of above average grades, but my behavior). I also hardly ever cried as a baby. I'm not bragging but i'm just showing you an example of a nonviolent upbringing. It can work.
You put words into my mouth. I said "hit a woman", then you say "beating a woman up". I mean hit in a way that children get hit. Children for example get spanked against their will, so if you spank a woman against her will then you go to jail...same with a slap against the face...ect
If you use words instead of violence then that is how your child will grow up and take care of problems in life...verbally. If your child grows up with violence then they will see that as an ok way of solving problems, so if their spouse is being difficult *whack*.
Primitive behavior is the opposite of evolved behavior. If you want to be primitive in your life, fine. That's your prerogative. I personally want to use the wonderful thing called words in my parenting (if/when i'm a parent). I want to teach my child at a very young age that using words to solve problems is the most evolved way. So when I teach him/her verbal conflict resolution, I will do it through demonstration through out his/her upbringing because we all know that is the best way to get it into her consciousness. It's similar to learning another language, the best way to do is "total immersion" from an early age. So by the time she is grown up she will have verbal conflict resolution ingrained into her mind.
Btw, being sexually attracted to a woman is not primitive or bad in any way and actually the best thing that can ever happen for humanity. If it never happened then humans would be extinct. Thats the whole reason for puberty, it's to transform you into a man and do what is totally natural...reproduce. Thats why we get that extreme feeling of needing sex, because if the feeling wasn't very potent then humanity might be in trouble. Its a survival instinct...which again isn't "primitive" as people would lead you to believe. If all these things are primitve then whats evolved? The opposite and so that would mean death to humanity and that's of course nonsense. Sexual and survival instincts are different than the primitive nature of hitting children.
I could go on but I have plenty of M.Ds, therapists, physcologists, pediatricians...ect who side with me.
You both have good points. Depends so much on the parent. At the end of the day what your suggesting is that we should live in a eutopia with no violence where everyone is perfect. Glorified violence is the tool of the tyrants, that much is true.
Humans have not changed chemically or physically over the last 50 years, its all conditioned. Then why are people such pricks these days? Non violence is possible for you maybe but what about the kid next to you whose an attention seeking little arsehole with no discipline? He goes on to have undisciplined kids and the cycle goes on. You should realise, Alex that people are different. In general you are right, if everyone was as loving and devoted as your parents we would not have a problem. If every single child was brought up under those conditions your theory would work better. But when we delve a little further into real life you may notice thats not the case. You also have to remember that not everyone is brought up in suburban white America.
I believe Hohbein was refering to this new generation of chavs and thugs. They have no discipline and nothing to lose, but they do feel pain. Its wrong for a parent of the public state to exploit that, but what other options are left? We drop laws from no where that give them freedoms and loopholes to jump through, only to give them a few years of free bed and board, and even the oppertunity to open up routes for their new criminal career (IE PRISON) as a reward.
Originally posted by tubias Originally posted by AlexAmore
Originally posted by Hohbein
I hate to say it, but people like you are exactly why the world is in this state. I agree, hitting your children is 'primitive' behaviour. But who says primitive behaviour is wrong? We humans are always so quick to play our 'we're human, we can speak, therefore we have no primal instincts' card. Its bullshit, pure and simple. Just as finding women attractive and wanting to hump them is one of my primal instincts, so too was knowing i've done wrong when i was hit by my parents. Of course, children that are beaten on a regular basis for absolutely no reason will grow up to be fucked up freaks, I 100% agree with that. I'm not talking about beating kids constantly for absolutely no reason, I'm talking about a swift slap around the back of the legs when your kid swears at you, or hits somebody, or stamps on a toad or something. It's hardly enough to grow the kid into some wife beating freak, it's simply enough to let them associate pain with doing things wrong (a highly valuable life lesson). I was quite a pain in the arse as a kid, for sure. I honestly don't think I'd have turned out as I have if my parents weren't willing to smack me from time to time. When I was young I feared doing things wrong, because I knew my dad had a swift backhand and it stung for hours, therefore I'd THINK before doing anything I knew could result in pain. It's the same with all creatures, just as you might train your dog by giving him a gental slap when he chases a cat, so too you should train your children using the same method. Children, afterall, have far less humanity than even the savagest of animals, without this inhumanity being countered in the early years of their lives, they grow up to be truely screwed up people. Such as peace protestors and the like. As for your comment about 'people are sent to jail when they hit a woman, yet they are good parents when they hit their child'.... It's a COMPLETELY different context, don't be so rediculous. Beating a woman up isn't even vaguely similar to giving your child a sharp slap across the legs for doing something wrong, is it? If you honestly think it is, then I think you are the one with issues (most probably because you weren't beaten enough as a child). My main point is, humans are animals. Animals learn to associate doing bad things with negative consequences. Being told you can't play your playstation for a week is hardly the end of the world, even for a 12 year old.
I don't know if its people like me that the world is in this "state". I'm an extremely peaceful guy. I have always been nonviolent. Ghandi, Albert Einstein, Buddha, are people that are very influential in my lives(Jesus too, but i'm not even close to a christian). So just because I disagree with violence in parenting doesn't mean people like me are the reason why there is violence in this world. Infact a peaceful, loving parenting should actually take away violence in this world.
My parents never spanked me. My parents gave me lots of attention and love all the time. I never touched drugs, never got into a fight, I have very good manners, and my teachers loved in me school (not because of above average grades, but my behavior). I also hardly ever cried as a baby. I'm not bragging but i'm just showing you an example of a nonviolent upbringing. It can work.
You put words into my mouth. I said "hit a woman", then you say "beating a woman up". I mean hit in a way that children get hit. Children for example get spanked against their will, so if you spank a woman against her will then you go to jail...same with a slap against the face...ect
If you use words instead of violence then that is how your child will grow up and take care of problems in life...verbally. If your child grows up with violence then they will see that as an ok way of solving problems, so if their spouse is being difficult *whack*.
Primitive behavior is the opposite of evolved behavior. If you want to be primitive in your life, fine. That's your prerogative. I personally want to use the wonderful thing called words in my parenting (if/when i'm a parent). I want to teach my child at a very young age that using words to solve problems is the most evolved way. So when I teach him/her verbal conflict resolution, I will do it through demonstration through out his/her upbringing because we all know that is the best way to get it into her consciousness. It's similar to learning another language, the best way to do is "total immersion" from an early age. So by the time she is grown up she will have verbal conflict resolution ingrained into her mind.
Btw, being sexually attracted to a woman is not primitive or bad in any way and actually the best thing that can ever happen for humanity. If it never happened then humans would be extinct. Thats the whole reason for puberty, it's to transform you into a man and do what is totally natural...reproduce. Thats why we get that extreme feeling of needing sex, because if the feeling wasn't very potent then humanity might be in trouble. Its a survival instinct...which again isn't "primitive" as people would lead you to believe. If all these things are primitve then whats evolved? The opposite and so that would mean death to humanity and that's of course nonsense. Sexual and survival instincts are different than the primitive nature of hitting children.
I could go on but I have plenty of M.Ds, therapists, physcologists, pediatricians...ect who side with me.
You both have good points. Depends so much on the parent. At the end of the day what your suggesting is that we should live in a eutopia with no violence where everyone is perfect. Glorified violence is the tool of the tyrants, that much is true.
Humans have not changed chemically or physically over the last 50 years, its all conditioned. Then why are people such pricks these days? Non violence is possible for you maybe but what about the kid next to you whose an attention seeking little arsehole with no discipline? He goes on to have undisciplined kids and the cycle goes on. You should realise, Alex that people are different. In general you are right, if everyone was as loving and devoted as your parents we would not have a problem. If every single child was brought up under those conditions your theory would work better. But when we delve a little further into real life you may notice thats not the case. You also have to remember that not everyone is brought up in suburban white America.
I believe Hohbein was refering to this new generation of chavs and thugs. They have no discipline and nothing to lose, but they do feel pain. Its wrong for a parent of the public state to exploit that, but what other options are left? We drop laws from no where that give them freedoms and loopholes to jump through, only to give them a few years of free bed and board, and even the oppertunity to open up routes for their new criminal career (IE PRISON) as a reward.
Come back to reality man. Humans ARE animals.
Yeah, but we create the society we live in through our choices and actions. If everyone would quit with the giving up and just accepting it and instea try to make a difference then things would gradually change. But it seems everyone takes the easy way out. That's why things are declining.
It's tough to get out and do good things. Especially as much as everyone works these days and as little time as we have. But we're going to have to start doing something together if we want a better world for us animals to live in. Grrrrrr...
You know, honestly. I've never had to spank my children. It's just never come to that.
I believe in parenting through modeling. If you model a behavior for your children and they see you do it they will want to act that way too. That's why I've taken them on the volunteer rides with me and explained why it's a good thing to help others out. And also explained to them how a community and society must think and act to function as a whole.
People in a society need to practice respect, understanding, empathy, and action. Not just feeling comfortable going to work everyday then coming home and watching t.v. There's more to involvement and responsibility than that. And trust me, volunteering is so rewarding and shows you what that involvement can do in so many wonderful ways that are unexplainable. I think that's why my children have learned to dig it so much.
Kids will listen to reason. They're not dumb, they just need to be taught why things have to be done the way they do. Society is dependent on the community as a whole working together. I think THAT'S where we've gotten off track. And if you explain the "why" to kids they'll get it.
No, kids are not dumb, BUT I think you fail to understyand human nature and can only wonder if you will still believe as you do in twenty years.
Spanking relieves guilt in children and gives them a clean slate. It is as though they have paid the debt for their disobedience or misbehavior. They need this and inwardly crave it as well. Without it they will never feel fully loved. I don't expect many to understand this but it is true and some here know what I say.
Now if you tell me your children never disobey then we will know you are simply writing fiction to entertain us all.
As in most things there is a right way and a wrong way. Rule number one: Never spank a child in anger!! But do it calmly, delibertly, matter-of-factly and lovingly. I know firsthand what love, discipline, spanking and consistency can do in the lives of young children who have been without it in their lives.
Hope you will give it some consideration. Spanking is not "violence". It is love, discipline, and a long practiced and valid part of rearing. There is more violence in a football game than in spanking a child.
I believe psychological punishment works just as well. Tell your child why, what he did was wrong, and then punish him by taking something away that he really likes, or wants to do, lock him in his room etc . It might sound like a light punishment from our "older perspective" but for a 5-10 year old kid it isn't. I still remember that when I really misbehaved when I was young, my dad would lock me into the Sauna for a certain amount of time. Then when he felt that enough time had passed, he would come back in and talk to me. If I still didn't want to listen he would go out again, keep me there some longer and then come in to talk to me again. If I behaved nicely and promised to not do it again I would be released. I learned of it. I rarely did it again.
You both have good points. Depends so much on the parent. At the end of the day what your suggesting is that we should live in a eutopia with no violence where everyone is perfect. Glorified violence is the tool of the tyrants, that much is true.
Humans have not changed chemically or physically over the last 50 years, its all conditioned. Then why are people such pricks these days? Non violence is possible for you maybe but what about the kid next to you whose an attention seeking little arsehole with no discipline? He goes on to have undisciplined kids and the cycle goes on. You should realise, Alex that people are different. In general you are right, if everyone was as loving and devoted as your parents we would not have a problem. If every single child was brought up under those conditions your theory would work better. But when we delve a little further into real life you may notice thats not the case. You also have to remember that not everyone is brought up in suburban white America.
I believe Hohbein was refering to this new generation of chavs and thugs. They have no discipline and nothing to lose, but they do feel pain. Its wrong for a parent of the public state to exploit that, but what other options are left? We drop laws from no where that give them freedoms and loopholes to jump through, only to give them a few years of free bed and board, and even the oppertunity to open up routes for their new criminal career (IE PRISON) as a reward.
Come back to reality man. Humans ARE animals.
Welcome to the forums.
What is up with animals being such a derogative term??? I'll have you know, I have a black lab dog and all she gives me all day is unconditional love and puppy like playfulness. I understand we are animals but i'm a big animal lover so its all good.
Nonviolence is possible for me because I choose nonviolence. Everyone can choose it, but are they strong enough mentally? Plus what I said wasn't a theory that children grow up healthier in a nonviolent household. Like I said many doctors and therapists agree with me and they agree because there have been studies showing what I have said to be true.
Yes I do realize people are different; that is why we are having this discussion.
I am in reality, reality is nonviolence breeds nonviolence. I believe there are camps for teens who are troubled and I don't think their allowed to hit any of the teens. So there's an option for teens who didn't have good parenting.
Just to let you parents know, if you hit your children then good luck ever having open conversations with your children. Your child is not going to come to you when He is in trouble or needs advice about a problem because he will be afraid of you....you'll probably spank him!
The parent needs to be comfortable person to go to for the child when in need. A place where the child can go with problems and not be afraid. Your child will be more open with you and only then can you really understand and have a closer relationship.
Have you guys ever seen Nanny 911 or Super Nanny? They change these children who are totally insane into very well behaved children in like 2 weeks or so. Again they don't spank. Even Dr. Phil is against spanking and i'm just talking about people on T.V nevermind all the other people in the same field of studies.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
There are more unhappy peoples now than 100 years ago.
See, my grandpa never rush to do anything, nobody would ever have manage to make him rush (unless a live emergency, he was a decent gentleman), he was saying: "No point in rushing, there will always be more work to be done." He was also happy to drink a beer while on his horse saying that...the police can't arrest him!
Today, peoples rush and overwork, they do a lot of sacrifices. When those sacrifices don't bring the rewards they should, they go unhappy. Me grandpa didn't need anything but the most basic stuff...me without a computer...that would not be nice results I can assure you.
But some peoples are still very nice. You can tell if someone is happy or not by the degree of kindness this person show and the degree of mean behavior.
I think I am overall happy, less happy than a year ago, but working and improving on it as best as can! Same apply for in-game communities. Happy players are kinds.
Anyway, the best way to help this situation is by working on yourself and your surrounding!
The peoples are just more honest on the internet, hidden behind a wall and feeling safe...so they freely talk...of course some are just there to entertain themselves and confuse everyone.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
People are not necesarily ruder these days but alot more impatient. People are always in a hurry, have some where they have to be and with less and less time available to focus on the family and there family life people tend to be more agitated. So if they have to waith for there coffee at Starbucks they get mean and angery. If they are held up in traffic they swear and yell at other people. In a simpler day where time management wasn't as critical and the work/family unit didn't need to be micro manages to balance the day's activities people where more laid back.
Go to a small town, say less then 2000 people where the vast magority of people know each other I'm willing to bet that people will be nicer and more friendly to you then in a huge city where all of the people are racing around trying to get to work and meet dead lines. Its a fact of life the more we move towards urban sprawl and the supper city type of community the more our 'sense of community' and 'love thy neighbour' mentality goes the way of the dodo.
I'm reminded of this every time I visit my parents in the small town I grew up in, the environment and community are so different then the large city I am currently living.
Originally posted by Alcanan People are not necesarily ruder these days but alot more impatient. People are always in a hurry, have some where they have to be and with less and less time available to focus on the family and there family life people tend to be more agitated. So if they have to waith for there coffee at Starbucks they get mean and angery. If they are held up in traffic they swear and yell at other people. In a simpler day where time management wasn't as critical and the work/family unit didn't need to be micro manages to balance the day's activities people where more laid back. Go to a small town, say less then 2000 people where the vast magority of people know each other I'm willing to bet that people will be nicer and more friendly to you then in a huge city where all of the people are racing around trying to get to work and meet dead lines. Its a fact of life the more we move towards urban sprawl and the supper city type of community the more our 'sense of community' and 'love thy neighbour' mentality goes the way of the dodo. I'm reminded of this every time I visit my parents in the small town I grew up in, the environment and community are so different then the large city I am currently living. Just my opinion on the subject,
I think you're right.
There must be a way to foster that small town mentality to the city though.
I look at it this way. Imagine you work for a big company. And you find out that company has been doing people wrong. Consider maybe even the fact that you may be on the company committe. After finding out that the company has been doing some morally apprehensible things, what degree of responsibility do you feel?
For most people it's not that much. The responsibility seems to go to this company entity, which isn't even a person really. Yet it takes the guilt off your shoulders. And so you aren't as motivated to do something about it or feel it's your actions that caused it.
I think that may be the problem with city life. If that could somehow be changed and people could get a community feeling, with responsibility along with it, things might move in a positive direction.
Originally posted by AlexAmore Welcome to the forums.
Wait until you are a parent. Kids don't talk to parents not because they were spanked (I'm not talking about daily beatings, aka child abuse), it is because kids don't like to talk to their parents. It is perfectly natural. Since you are 17 and apparently raised with the goody-goody parents, you tell me, do you talk to your parents about everything without being directly questioned? How about when you are directly questioned, do you tell your parents everything? And then, do you tell them the truth? A better question might be, have you ever done anything that would disappointed your parents and not told them the whole truth? Of course, only you can know if your answer is true so I don't actually want a response.
I have learned much as a parent of 2 families with children ranging from one to twenty-one, as a teacher of adults (night school and college), a teacher of children (grade school), and as a leader of soldiers in the Army. I can tell you this, there are times when aggressive corrective action is required in order to force home an important lesson. My own opinion is that these circumstances revolve primarily around the safety of the child, teenager, or young adult, when they did not initially respond to less traumatizing methods of corrective action.
To the OP, I have talked about this in several other threads, but I will give a brief opinion. Each generation views its timeframe specific moral guidelines to be the correct one. Therefore as time progresses and society evolves beyond a generation's guidelines, the older generation begins to feel society has erroded their moral fabric. The fact of the matter is that society is like an epic story and each generation adds, deletes, and changes the vocabulary to fit their specific timeframe. The underlying story however does not change, merely the viewpoint of the orator and listener.
Lastly, although I am not going to go into detail, I believe the reason we have seen a degredation of "politeness" on forums is merely the anonymity factor. Being anonymous emboldens people outside their normally acceptable behavior because there are no conscequences to lying, being rude, etc. Honestly, I cannot believe that some of the people on this forum would look someone in the eye and say the exact same things. Especially when it is over some entirely trivial matters such as which game is better etc.
Polite people are just fake plain and simple. Or, they want money. My dad told me when a man starts talking about the weather, keep a hold on to your wallet.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Nonviolence is possible for me because I choose nonviolence. Everyone can choose it, but are they strong enough mentally? Plus what I said wasn't a theory that children grow up healthier in a nonviolent household. Like I said many doctors and therapists agree with me and they agree because there have been studies showing what I have said to be true.
Like the studies revolving around the length of your index finger and the violent behavior attached to it?
Just to let you parents know, if you hit your children then good luck ever having open conversations with your children. Your child is not going to come to you when He is in trouble or needs advice about a problem because he will be afraid of you....you'll probably spank him!
The parent needs to be comfortable person to go to for the child when in need. A place where the child can go with problems and not be afraid. Your child will be more open with you and only then can you really understand and have a closer relationship.
Oh how asinine and fallacious; let me tell you a short narrow biography revolving around myself.
During my childhood to mid teenage years, I was spanked as a child; the older I got, the more frequent it became. Not because I was really a jerk of a kid(although I could be), but because I was head-strong, with an adamantine will.
It usually came to be that I recieved multiple spankings during a day; in fact, amusingly enough, they once broken the paddle on me, which was a long flat wooden stick about three inches wide and one inch thick.
Without their "archaic" forms of discipline, I would of turned out a bit off the path that I should have been, I would have had a horrid relationship with them, and ended up very screwed up.
Now the fallacious part of your statement; I have a wonderful relationship with my parents, my father in particular; I speak with him frequently about anything and everything, I've gotten to know him as a friend, as well as a father.
Have you guys ever seen Nanny 911 or Super Nanny? They change these children who are totally insane into very well behaved children in like 2 weeks or so. Again they don't spank. Even Dr. Phil is against spanking and i'm just talking about people on T.V nevermind all the other people in the same field of studies.
Your making your power point of studies Super Nanny & Dr. Phil?(New comic book heroes, anyone?)
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Originally posted by Rufius Polite people are just fake plain and simple. Or, they want money. My dad told me when a man starts talking about the weather, keep a hold on to your wallet.
I knew my local weatherman was up to something with his funny commentary, bad jokes, and horrible weather predictions...
Originally posted by reavo I was talking to my grandmother yesterday. We were talking about how things have changed from her era to ours. She said that people today are really quick to be mean. They're not as polite as they used to be. And don't have as much respect for other people like they did.
I wasn't alive to experience the era she is talking about, but I believe her. I'll tell you why.
Because I can tell a difference just from the time I was a kid and the kids nowadays. I know a lot of folks say that is the case with every generation. But why? Why is each one getting worse instead of better? And what kids these days see as no problem is just going to lead to each generation getting worse and worse unless it stops.
Take conversations on these boards for instance. How often have you noticed someone come along and just completely go off on some inconsiderate rant? Or spew cuss words left and right? Or just totally disrespect someone just because they disagree with them?
I know that the excuse of anonymity or immaturity are usually given. But even so, what would motivate a person to be like that instead of being nice? Seriously, even at my age, I hardly ever use a cuss word. Actually, I can't remember the last time I did. But I hear them nearly everywhere I go. Even in public places where people can hear other people talk. It's a lack of respect.
I'm just curious is all. Why is it happening? It seems like when you meet someone with manners and who shows respect towards others it's a rarity. And those are the people I remember the most in my life.
I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for a lot of people doing it. But what do you guys think is the main underlying cause? It's got to be stemming from something.
It really makes me sad though. I don't understand the anger and hostility.
I agree 100%. You can also clearly see the attitude change by watching classic movies etc. Its allmost a depressing thing to notice.
I'm not an old guy (30) but I do sit down and shake my head at society today and kids today...its allmost like I am a 80 year old maid.
Its hard to point the finger at what caused the dramatic change, but I think the fact that the media started becoming more bold and daring. People got used to it, and they had to keep finding ways to shock people. Its still going on today. If something is not totaly shocking or provocative it does not get the attention they are looking for. It started with little things like "nudity", showing a womans bare leg etc etc. and on the snowball when rolling down the hill. Swearing, viloance blood, etc etc.
Originally posted by daeandor Originally posted by Rufius Polite people are just fake plain and simple. Or, they want money. My dad told me when a man starts talking about the weather, keep a hold on to your wallet. I knew my local weatherman was up to something with his funny commentary, bad jokes, and horrible weather predictions...
This ain't about the weatherman, this is about the person talking to you about the weather. Maybe you should stop reading for awhile and do something else, you're misunderstanding things.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Nonviolence is possible for me because I choose nonviolence. Everyone can choose it, but are they strong enough mentally? Plus what I said wasn't a theory that children grow up healthier in a nonviolent household. Like I said many doctors and therapists agree with me and they agree because there have been studies showing what I have said to be true.
Like the studies revolving around the length of your index finger and the violent behavior attached to it?
Pfft Not even close. There are mountains of studies. This subject is a lot more important than that and so its been studied by many experts for many years. So far it seems spanking does have negative ....many negative effects.
Just to let you parents know, if you hit your children then good luck ever having open conversations with your children. Your child is not going to come to you when He is in trouble or needs advice about a problem because he will be afraid of you....you'll probably spank him!
The parent needs to be comfortable person to go to for the child when in need. A place where the child can go with problems and not be afraid. Your child will be more open with you and only then can you really understand and have a closer relationship.
Oh how asinine and fallacious; let me tell you a short narrow biography revolving around myself.
During my childhood to mid teenage years, I was spanked as a child; the older I got, the more frequent it became. Not because I was really a jerk of a kid(although I could be), but because I was head-strong, with an adamantine will.
It usually came to be that I recieved multiple spankings during a day; in fact, amusingly enough, they once broken the paddle on me, which was a long flat wooden stick about three inches wide and one inch thick.
Without their "archaic" forms of discipline, I would of turned out a bit off the path that I should have been, I would have had a horrid relationship with them, and ended up very screwed up.
Now the fallacious part of your statement; I have a wonderful relationship with my parents, my father in particular; I speak with him frequently about anything and everything, I've gotten to know him as a friend, as well as a father.
Have you guys ever seen Nanny 911 or Super Nanny? They change these children who are totally insane into very well behaved children in like 2 weeks or so. Again they don't spank. Even Dr. Phil is against spanking and i'm just talking about people on T.V nevermind all the other people in the same field of studies.
Your making your power point of studies Super Nanny & Dr. Phil?(New comic book heroes, anyone?)
I was simply talking about people who are on TV and pretty well respected. You can clearly see the education in these people and so I was using them for my example.
Interesting article for the people who say "I was spanked and i'm fine!". Jan Hunt, M.Sc. (Masters of Science) I guess if experts in the field can't convince you guys spanking isn't effective , then I can't. Sure doctors said it was ok to spank a long time ago but science and medical industry is constantly evolving and with that comes to new knowledge.
I understand how some of you can say "I was spanked and it was because I was bad and my parents loved me". I'm sure you're parents did love you and they were just going off what they had learned as a child from their parents. But this is all ancient practices in the name of current science and psychology.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
In the old days the whole neighborhood was one ethnic group, they cared about each other because of innate love people have for members of their own kind.
Now you go to the market and its freakin packed, theres no room to move, there all sorts of people from different cultures and races, the guy with the turban doesn't care about the white people, to him we're white devils or something, this sort of attitude permeates everything, if you ever lived in south cali you know the ethnic tensions, the blacks don't like mexicans, the armenians don't like blacks, the arabs don't like armenians, the jews don't like the arabs, and so forth.
So you go into the market and have this mix of people from all over the world, who have longstanding ethnic fueds, and it's a very cold and impersonal businesslike atmosphere.
Also the world is getting too crowded.
When your nearest neighbor was 5 miles away, if you saw another person you were like "Hey how are you, come sit down and chat with me."
Now you're on the freeway, which is packed from end to end, nobody's moving, it's hot, sometimes you just wish there weren't so many people, and you start to RESENT them for taking up living space.
The meanness is just going to get worse as time goes by, because we are becoming the only populous multi-ethnic nation.
For example if you go to Japan, its very crowded, but they don't resent each other because every single person is Japanese. If half the people in the train were black or mexican or chinese, they would prolly be like "wtf are all these non-japanese doing here, get the f*ck out of our train."
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This primitive punishment is something that should be used only when needed.
At the moment my brother has two children, one boy and one girl.
My brother's wife doesn't agree with beating your children has punishment, so when they get in trouble, they just get yelled at "Hey! Don't make me come over there!" Now, since they say that all the damn time, the children have learned to ignore that and continue to do it.
There are three types of parents in this world.
Authoritarian, Permissive, and Authoritative
Authoritarian is the strict parenting where the parents make all the decisions.
Permissive is the opposite to Authoritarian, they rarely give their children punishment and never assert authority.
Authoritative is where the parents will give physical punishment but will also be reasonable, sort of like mixing Permissive and Authoritarian.
Now that I've explained that, I think nowdays more parents are on the Permissive track than anything.
Why? Well, at the moment if you harm your child anywhere where people can see; You lose your child.
It's very stupid, if you give you child a spanking in the store and this old lady sees what you're doing, well then say goodbye cause people nowdays LOVE to make a call in that a parent is punishing their child. Oh my! God forbid that we must give them a spanking.
For when you spank your child don't forget what you're actually doing to them.
When you spank your child you are Increasing their chances for cancer in the future, They just might get Aids, Gas prices might go up again, More pregnant teens, and finally Walmart just might shutdown!
I'm sorry, but I can't handle that kind of crap. That's why for one thing if I ever need to go to the store and the kids have to come no matter what, then we don't eat tonight.
Neptus - FFXI - Pandemonium
Neptus - WoW - Detheroc
How about my kids. Seriously. I'm not just trying to toot their horns because they're mine either. They're really awesome.
I've taught them that civic duty is by far their biggest responsibility. I do volunteer work every week. A meals on wheels program in my city. I started bringing them along with me when they were young. Now they beg to go. They want to go more than I have the time to between work and taking care of them. So they devise plans to do other volunteer work, like painting older folks houses that we go to church with.
I think if you teach kids stuff like that at an early age, it's instills a sense of duty in them. They're going to be awesome adults. I'm so proud of them.
But, I'll tell you the truth. Some of their friends go along with us on our rides, and then some of them help them with their other activities. So it's a bit contagious. But there are some kids at their school that pick on them for doing what they do. One kid said his dad told him that people who volunteer are hippies. Where does that kind of parenting come from??? I was baffled that someone would say that to their child.
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It all seems so stupid
It makes me want to give up
But why should I give up
When it all seems so stupid
I don't know if its people like me that the world is in this "state". I'm an extremely peaceful guy. I have always been nonviolent. Ghandi, Albert Einstein, Buddha, are people that are very influential in my lives(Jesus too, but i'm not even close to a christian). So just because I disagree with violence in parenting doesn't mean people like me are the reason why there is violence in this world. Infact a peaceful, loving parenting should actually take away violence in this world.
My parents never spanked me. My parents gave me lots of attention and love all the time. I never touched drugs, never got into a fight, I have very good manners, and my teachers loved in me school (not because of above average grades, but my behavior). I also hardly ever cried as a baby. I'm not bragging but i'm just showing you an example of a nonviolent upbringing. It can work.
You put words into my mouth. I said "hit a woman", then you say "beating a woman up". I mean hit in a way that children get hit. Children for example get spanked against their will, so if you spank a woman against her will then you go to jail...same with a slap against the face...ect
If you use words instead of violence then that is how your child will grow up and take care of problems in life...verbally. If your child grows up with violence then they will see that as an ok way of solving problems, so if their spouse is being difficult *whack*.
Primitive behavior is the opposite of evolved behavior. If you want to be primitive in your life, fine. That's your prerogative. I personally want to use the wonderful thing called words in my parenting (if/when i'm a parent). I want to teach my child at a very young age that using words to solve problems is the most evolved way. So when I teach him/her verbal conflict resolution, I will do it through demonstration through out his/her upbringing because we all know that is the best way to get it into her consciousness. It's similar to learning another language, the best way to do is "total immersion" from an early age. So by the time she is grown up she will have verbal conflict resolution ingrained into her mind.
Btw, being sexually attracted to a woman is not primitive or bad in any way and actually the best thing that can ever happen for humanity. If it never happened then humans would be extinct. Thats the whole reason for puberty, it's to transform you into a man and do what is totally natural...reproduce. Thats why we get that extreme feeling of needing sex, because if the feeling wasn't very potent then humanity might be in trouble. Its a survival instinct...which again isn't "primitive" as people would lead you to believe. If all these things are primitve then whats evolved? The opposite and so that would mean death to humanity and that's of course nonsense. Sexual and survival instincts are different than the primitive nature of hitting children.
I could go on but I have plenty of M.Ds, therapists, physcologists, pediatricians...ect who side with me.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Kimmar, you sound like a good parent that cares about your childs future. Too many parents choose the easiest route at the moment which usually consists of "get out of here!", then in later years they wonder why their kids are angry, uncivilized and unkind.
Don't forget to throw in a good smack across the bottom when warranted so your words don't become idle threats. You and your children will be glad you did. I'm glad my parents whipped me good when I needed it because I came to know they cared enough to give me what I needed at the time. I dreaded my dads whippings but I love and respect him for it even though it was painful for us both at the time.
I feel sorry for the kids today whose parents care so little for them that they fail to correct and discipline them. They are the ones being mistreated and will pay all their lives.
Life is changing. Our views in society have started changing and what we believe in being challenged. Everywhere a person goes, something has changed, and or been challenged.
I think our society at whole is to blame. The generation that I am involved in has become one of the most Tolerant in the history of the United States. Gas prices...REDICULOUS! Yet, do you see a huge trend in people attacking this? No, because we have become tolerrant of situations that we feel we cannot control.
On top of this, parents themselves. I have seen some pretty bad things as far as parenting goes. The other day at my cousins party I heard the mother of a 3 year old girl say "STOP IT OR I WILL FUCKING SMACK YOUR GOD DAMN FACE!". To a four year old girl... Now, think about this. The daughter will grow up to be very aggressive. Or, very introverted. Either way, it leads to a negative outcome in her upbringing and mentality.
As a nation we have to stand up for what we believe in before things start to incline for a better society.
So in short. Parents need to take a little more control over what their kids are doing, telling them that what they are doing is right and wrong. Then taking a pro-active roll in ensuring that they continue to follow that basis. As well as, as a nation standing up for our values and what we believe.
The values I speak of are not biblical by their intent. The values I speak of are
QUOTE "Rules of conduct that every man of every faith can embrace!" /QUOTE -- The Boondock Saints.
I believe in parenting through modeling. If you model a behavior for your children and they see you do it they will want to act that way too. That's why I've taken them on the volunteer rides with me and explained why it's a good thing to help others out. And also explained to them how a community and society must think and act to function as a whole.
People in a society need to practice respect, understanding, empathy, and action. Not just feeling comfortable going to work everyday then coming home and watching t.v. There's more to involvement and responsibility than that. And trust me, volunteering is so rewarding and shows you what that involvement can do in so many wonderful ways that are unexplainable. I think that's why my children have learned to dig it so much.
Kids will listen to reason. They're not dumb, they just need to be taught why things have to be done the way they do. Society is dependent on the community as a whole working together. I think THAT'S where we've gotten off track. And if you explain the "why" to kids they'll get it.
=============================
It all seems so stupid
It makes me want to give up
But why should I give up
When it all seems so stupid
Let me know when you find those some ok?
How about my kids. Seriously. I'm not just trying to toot their horns because they're mine either. They're really awesome.
I've taught them that civic duty is by far their biggest responsibility. I do volunteer work every week. A meals on wheels program in my city. I started bringing them along with me when they were young. Now they beg to go. They want to go more than I have the time to between work and taking care of them. So they devise plans to do other volunteer work, like painting older folks houses that we go to church with.
I think if you teach kids stuff like that at an early age, it's instills a sense of duty in them. They're going to be awesome adults. I'm so proud of them.
But, I'll tell you the truth. Some of their friends go along with us on our rides, and then some of them help them with their other activities. So it's a bit contagious. But there are some kids at their school that pick on them for doing what they do. One kid said his dad told him that people who volunteer are hippies. Where does that kind of parenting come from??? I was baffled that someone would say that to their child.
People who volunteer are hippies?!?!?!
I can guess where that parent came up with saying something like that. Have you listened to a.m. talk radio shows lately. It's become down right evil. Showing some compassion for others has been defined as being a liberal left-wing hippy on those shows. They think that money is the most important factor of any decision you make and that just because you throw some of that cash to a charity you've done your duty. They don't know what goes on in people's lives who are down or hurt or sick because they hide away and never see it.
That is sad to say something like that to a kid. Parents like that should never have been blessed with
a child.
-----------------------
</OBAMA>
I don't know if its people like me that the world is in this "state". I'm an extremely peaceful guy. I have always been nonviolent. Ghandi, Albert Einstein, Buddha, are people that are very influential in my lives(Jesus too, but i'm not even close to a christian). So just because I disagree with violence in parenting doesn't mean people like me are the reason why there is violence in this world. Infact a peaceful, loving parenting should actually take away violence in this world.
My parents never spanked me. My parents gave me lots of attention and love all the time. I never touched drugs, never got into a fight, I have very good manners, and my teachers loved in me school (not because of above average grades, but my behavior). I also hardly ever cried as a baby. I'm not bragging but i'm just showing you an example of a nonviolent upbringing. It can work.
You put words into my mouth. I said "hit a woman", then you say "beating a woman up". I mean hit in a way that children get hit. Children for example get spanked against their will, so if you spank a woman against her will then you go to jail...same with a slap against the face...ect
If you use words instead of violence then that is how your child will grow up and take care of problems in life...verbally. If your child grows up with violence then they will see that as an ok way of solving problems, so if their spouse is being difficult *whack*.
Primitive behavior is the opposite of evolved behavior. If you want to be primitive in your life, fine. That's your prerogative. I personally want to use the wonderful thing called words in my parenting (if/when i'm a parent). I want to teach my child at a very young age that using words to solve problems is the most evolved way. So when I teach him/her verbal conflict resolution, I will do it through demonstration through out his/her upbringing because we all know that is the best way to get it into her consciousness. It's similar to learning another language, the best way to do is "total immersion" from an early age. So by the time she is grown up she will have verbal conflict resolution ingrained into her mind.
Btw, being sexually attracted to a woman is not primitive or bad in any way and actually the best thing that can ever happen for humanity. If it never happened then humans would be extinct. Thats the whole reason for puberty, it's to transform you into a man and do what is totally natural...reproduce. Thats why we get that extreme feeling of needing sex, because if the feeling wasn't very potent then humanity might be in trouble. Its a survival instinct...which again isn't "primitive" as people would lead you to believe. If all these things are primitve then whats evolved? The opposite and so that would mean death to humanity and that's of course nonsense. Sexual and survival instincts are different than the primitive nature of hitting children.
I could go on but I have plenty of M.Ds, therapists, physcologists, pediatricians...ect who side with me.
You both have good points. Depends so much on the parent. At the end of the day what your suggesting is that we should live in a eutopia with no violence where everyone is perfect. Glorified violence is the tool of the tyrants, that much is true.
Humans have not changed chemically or physically over the last 50 years, its all conditioned. Then why are people such pricks these days? Non violence is possible for you maybe but what about the kid next to you whose an attention seeking little arsehole with no discipline? He goes on to have undisciplined kids and the cycle goes on. You should realise, Alex that people are different. In general you are right, if everyone was as loving and devoted as your parents we would not have a problem. If every single child was brought up under those conditions your theory would work better. But when we delve a little further into real life you may notice thats not the case. You also have to remember that not everyone is brought up in suburban white America.
I believe Hohbein was refering to this new generation of chavs and thugs. They have no discipline and nothing to lose, but they do feel pain. Its wrong for a parent of the public state to exploit that, but what other options are left? We drop laws from no where that give them freedoms and loopholes to jump through, only to give them a few years of free bed and board, and even the oppertunity to open up routes for their new criminal career (IE PRISON) as a reward.
Come back to reality man. Humans ARE animals.
I don't know if its people like me that the world is in this "state". I'm an extremely peaceful guy. I have always been nonviolent. Ghandi, Albert Einstein, Buddha, are people that are very influential in my lives(Jesus too, but i'm not even close to a christian). So just because I disagree with violence in parenting doesn't mean people like me are the reason why there is violence in this world. Infact a peaceful, loving parenting should actually take away violence in this world.
My parents never spanked me. My parents gave me lots of attention and love all the time. I never touched drugs, never got into a fight, I have very good manners, and my teachers loved in me school (not because of above average grades, but my behavior). I also hardly ever cried as a baby. I'm not bragging but i'm just showing you an example of a nonviolent upbringing. It can work.
You put words into my mouth. I said "hit a woman", then you say "beating a woman up". I mean hit in a way that children get hit. Children for example get spanked against their will, so if you spank a woman against her will then you go to jail...same with a slap against the face...ect
If you use words instead of violence then that is how your child will grow up and take care of problems in life...verbally. If your child grows up with violence then they will see that as an ok way of solving problems, so if their spouse is being difficult *whack*.
Primitive behavior is the opposite of evolved behavior. If you want to be primitive in your life, fine. That's your prerogative. I personally want to use the wonderful thing called words in my parenting (if/when i'm a parent). I want to teach my child at a very young age that using words to solve problems is the most evolved way. So when I teach him/her verbal conflict resolution, I will do it through demonstration through out his/her upbringing because we all know that is the best way to get it into her consciousness. It's similar to learning another language, the best way to do is "total immersion" from an early age. So by the time she is grown up she will have verbal conflict resolution ingrained into her mind.
Btw, being sexually attracted to a woman is not primitive or bad in any way and actually the best thing that can ever happen for humanity. If it never happened then humans would be extinct. Thats the whole reason for puberty, it's to transform you into a man and do what is totally natural...reproduce. Thats why we get that extreme feeling of needing sex, because if the feeling wasn't very potent then humanity might be in trouble. Its a survival instinct...which again isn't "primitive" as people would lead you to believe. If all these things are primitve then whats evolved? The opposite and so that would mean death to humanity and that's of course nonsense. Sexual and survival instincts are different than the primitive nature of hitting children.
I could go on but I have plenty of M.Ds, therapists, physcologists, pediatricians...ect who side with me.
You both have good points. Depends so much on the parent. At the end of the day what your suggesting is that we should live in a eutopia with no violence where everyone is perfect. Glorified violence is the tool of the tyrants, that much is true.
Humans have not changed chemically or physically over the last 50 years, its all conditioned. Then why are people such pricks these days? Non violence is possible for you maybe but what about the kid next to you whose an attention seeking little arsehole with no discipline? He goes on to have undisciplined kids and the cycle goes on. You should realise, Alex that people are different. In general you are right, if everyone was as loving and devoted as your parents we would not have a problem. If every single child was brought up under those conditions your theory would work better. But when we delve a little further into real life you may notice thats not the case. You also have to remember that not everyone is brought up in suburban white America.
I believe Hohbein was refering to this new generation of chavs and thugs. They have no discipline and nothing to lose, but they do feel pain. Its wrong for a parent of the public state to exploit that, but what other options are left? We drop laws from no where that give them freedoms and loopholes to jump through, only to give them a few years of free bed and board, and even the oppertunity to open up routes for their new criminal career (IE PRISON) as a reward.
Come back to reality man. Humans ARE animals.
Yeah, but we create the society we live in through our choices and actions. If everyone would quit with the giving up and just accepting it and instea try to make a difference then things would gradually change. But it seems everyone takes the easy way out. That's why things are declining.
It's tough to get out and do good things. Especially as much as everyone works these days and as little time as we have. But we're going to have to start doing something together if we want a better world for us animals to live in. Grrrrrr...
--------------------------------------
No, kids are not dumb, BUT I think you fail to understyand human nature and can only wonder if you will still believe as you do in twenty years.
Spanking relieves guilt in children and gives them a clean slate. It is as though they have paid the debt for their disobedience or misbehavior. They need this and inwardly crave it as well. Without it they will never feel fully loved. I don't expect many to understand this but it is true and some here know what I say.
Now if you tell me your children never disobey then we will know you are simply writing fiction to entertain us all.
As in most things there is a right way and a wrong way. Rule number one: Never spank a child in anger!! But do it calmly, delibertly, matter-of-factly and lovingly. I know firsthand what love, discipline, spanking and consistency can do in the lives of young children who have been without it in their lives.
Hope you will give it some consideration. Spanking is not "violence". It is love, discipline, and a long practiced and valid part of rearing. There is more violence in a football game than in spanking a child.
Welcome to the forums.
What is up with animals being such a derogative term??? I'll have you know, I have a black lab dog and all she gives me all day is unconditional love and puppy like playfulness. I understand we are animals but i'm a big animal lover so its all good.
Nonviolence is possible for me because I choose nonviolence. Everyone can choose it, but are they strong enough mentally? Plus what I said wasn't a theory that children grow up healthier in a nonviolent household. Like I said many doctors and therapists agree with me and they agree because there have been studies showing what I have said to be true.
Yes I do realize people are different; that is why we are having this discussion.
I am in reality, reality is nonviolence breeds nonviolence. I believe there are camps for teens who are troubled and I don't think their allowed to hit any of the teens. So there's an option for teens who didn't have good parenting.
Just to let you parents know, if you hit your children then good luck ever having open conversations with your children. Your child is not going to come to you when He is in trouble or needs advice about a problem because he will be afraid of you....you'll probably spank him!
The parent needs to be comfortable person to go to for the child when in need. A place where the child can go with problems and not be afraid. Your child will be more open with you and only then can you really understand and have a closer relationship.
Have you guys ever seen Nanny 911 or Super Nanny? They change these children who are totally insane into very well behaved children in like 2 weeks or so. Again they don't spank. Even Dr. Phil is against spanking and i'm just talking about people on T.V nevermind all the other people in the same field of studies.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Unhappiness lead to a mean behavior.
There are more unhappy peoples now than 100 years ago.
See, my grandpa never rush to do anything, nobody would ever have manage to make him rush (unless a live emergency, he was a decent gentleman), he was saying: "No point in rushing, there will always be more work to be done." He was also happy to drink a beer while on his horse saying that...the police can't arrest him!
Today, peoples rush and overwork, they do a lot of sacrifices. When those sacrifices don't bring the rewards they should, they go unhappy. Me grandpa didn't need anything but the most basic stuff...me without a computer...that would not be nice results I can assure you.
But some peoples are still very nice. You can tell if someone is happy or not by the degree of kindness this person show and the degree of mean behavior.
I think I am overall happy, less happy than a year ago, but working and improving on it as best as can! Same apply for in-game communities. Happy players are kinds.
Anyway, the best way to help this situation is by working on yourself and your surrounding!
The peoples are just more honest on the internet, hidden behind a wall and feeling safe...so they freely talk...of course some are just there to entertain themselves and confuse everyone.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
People are not necesarily ruder these days but alot more impatient. People are always in a hurry, have some where they have to be and with less and less time available to focus on the family and there family life people tend to be more agitated. So if they have to waith for there coffee at Starbucks they get mean and angery. If they are held up in traffic they swear and yell at other people. In a simpler day where time management wasn't as critical and the work/family unit didn't need to be micro manages to balance the day's activities people where more laid back.
Go to a small town, say less then 2000 people where the vast magority of people know each other I'm willing to bet that people will be nicer and more friendly to you then in a huge city where all of the people are racing around trying to get to work and meet dead lines. Its a fact of life the more we move towards urban sprawl and the supper city type of community the more our 'sense of community' and 'love thy neighbour' mentality goes the way of the dodo.
I'm reminded of this every time I visit my parents in the small town I grew up in, the environment and community are so different then the large city I am currently living.
Just my opinion on the subject,
Alcanan
"The True North Strong and Free"
"Faith Manages"
There must be a way to foster that small town mentality to the city though.
I look at it this way. Imagine you work for a big company. And you find out that company has been doing people wrong. Consider maybe even the fact that you may be on the company committe. After finding out that the company has been doing some morally apprehensible things, what degree of responsibility do you feel?
For most people it's not that much. The responsibility seems to go to this company entity, which isn't even a person really. Yet it takes the guilt off your shoulders. And so you aren't as motivated to do something about it or feel it's your actions that caused it.
I think that may be the problem with city life. If that could somehow be changed and people could get a community feeling, with responsibility along with it, things might move in a positive direction.
-----------------------
</OBAMA>
Wait until you are a parent. Kids don't talk to parents not because they were spanked (I'm not talking about daily beatings, aka child abuse), it is because kids don't like to talk to their parents. It is perfectly natural. Since you are 17 and apparently raised with the goody-goody parents, you tell me, do you talk to your parents about everything without being directly questioned? How about when you are directly questioned, do you tell your parents everything? And then, do you tell them the truth? A better question might be, have you ever done anything that would disappointed your parents and not told them the whole truth? Of course, only you can know if your answer is true so I don't actually want a response.
I have learned much as a parent of 2 families with children ranging from one to twenty-one, as a teacher of adults (night school and college), a teacher of children (grade school), and as a leader of soldiers in the Army. I can tell you this, there are times when aggressive corrective action is required in order to force home an important lesson. My own opinion is that these circumstances revolve primarily around the safety of the child, teenager, or young adult, when they did not initially respond to less traumatizing methods of corrective action.
To the OP, I have talked about this in several other threads, but I will give a brief opinion. Each generation views its timeframe specific moral guidelines to be the correct one. Therefore as time progresses and society evolves beyond a generation's guidelines, the older generation begins to feel society has erroded their moral fabric. The fact of the matter is that society is like an epic story and each generation adds, deletes, and changes the vocabulary to fit their specific timeframe. The underlying story however does not change, merely the viewpoint of the orator and listener.
Lastly, although I am not going to go into detail, I believe the reason we have seen a degredation of "politeness" on forums is merely the anonymity factor. Being anonymous emboldens people outside their normally acceptable behavior because there are no conscequences to lying, being rude, etc. Honestly, I cannot believe that some of the people on this forum would look someone in the eye and say the exact same things. Especially when it is over some entirely trivial matters such as which game is better etc.
Polite people are just fake plain and simple. Or, they want money. My dad told me when a man starts talking about the weather, keep a hold on to your wallet.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
I'm not an old guy (30) but I do sit down and shake my head at society today and kids today...its allmost like I am a 80 year old maid.
Its hard to point the finger at what caused the dramatic change, but I think the fact that the media started becoming more bold and daring. People got used to it, and they had to keep finding ways to shock people. Its still going on today. If something is not totaly shocking or provocative it does not get the attention they are looking for.
It started with little things like "nudity", showing a womans bare leg etc etc. and on the snowball when rolling down the hill. Swearing, viloance blood, etc etc.
yea i recon they shud of got meaner and meaner belive your grandmother
In california you can always find a party,
In Soviet Russia the party can always find you
Professor Hubert Farnsworth - That question is less stupid but, you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Interesting article for the people who say "I was spanked and i'm fine!". Jan Hunt, M.Sc. (Masters of Science)
I guess if experts in the field can't convince you guys spanking isn't effective , then I can't. Sure doctors said it was ok to spank a long time ago but science and medical industry is constantly evolving and with that comes to new knowledge.
I understand how some of you can say "I was spanked and it was because I was bad and my parents loved me". I'm sure you're parents did love you and they were just going off what they had learned as a child from their parents. But this is all ancient practices in the name of current science and psychology.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
In the old days the whole neighborhood was one ethnic group, they cared about each other because of innate love people have for members of their own kind.
Now you go to the market and its freakin packed, theres no room to move, there all sorts of people from different cultures and races, the guy with the turban doesn't care about the white people, to him we're white devils or something, this sort of attitude permeates everything, if you ever lived in south cali you know the ethnic tensions, the blacks don't like mexicans, the armenians don't like blacks, the arabs don't like armenians, the jews don't like the arabs, and so forth.
So you go into the market and have this mix of people from all over the world, who have longstanding ethnic fueds, and it's a very cold and impersonal businesslike atmosphere.
Also the world is getting too crowded.
When your nearest neighbor was 5 miles away, if you saw another person you were like "Hey how are you, come sit down and chat with me."
Now you're on the freeway, which is packed from end to end, nobody's moving, it's hot, sometimes you just wish there weren't so many people, and you start to RESENT them for taking up living space.
The meanness is just going to get worse as time goes by, because we are becoming the only populous multi-ethnic nation.
For example if you go to Japan, its very crowded, but they don't resent each other because every single person is Japanese. If half the people in the train were black or mexican or chinese, they would prolly be like "wtf are all these non-japanese doing here, get the f*ck out of our train."