Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

Iselin · May 2020

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

Nope. Just shorter and more concentrated dungeon run experience without having it interrupted by the death penalty mini games. Longer and interrupted by other things does not mean harder to me.

ChildoftheShadows · May 2020

One thing I will say about EQ dropping items, my alt rogue got a lot of business or made a lot of friends just for being able to sneak in and drag corpses back out for people.

Socializing ftw!

Amathe · May 2020

Yeah I meant in EQ. My bad.

xpsync · May 2020

Corpse runs;

In what was considered an extreme death penalty, and or an unacceptable downtime element was what gave me the most memorable gaming experience i've ever shared with other people, SWL a close second, those dungeons were so unique, finally crafted, and hard AF. I can't compare them to anything else, they were 100% unique, they were not pug friendly at all. (funny around E6 and up they kinda became pug acceptable as the pool of players up there was so small, it wasn't much of pug as you'd recognize names when you had to fill an empty spot for someone off for the night for rl reasons.)

Being completely honest with myself i'll take the easiest route same as anyone else, but when the game won't let me, i step up and find like minded players, sometime i do, sometimes i don't, i let fate decide. But when it decides Yes, omfg the good times to be had.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

Iselin said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

Nope. Just shorter and more concentrated dungeon run experience without having it interrupted by the death penalty mini games. Longer and interrupted by other things does not mean harder to me.

"...But we err in presuming convenience is always good, for it has a complex relationship with other ideals that we hold dear. Though understood and promoted as an instrument of liberation, convenience has a dark side. With its promise of smooth, effortless efficiency, it threatens to erase the sort of struggles and challenges that help give meaning to life. Created to free us, it can become a constraint on what we are willing to do, and thus in a subtle way it can enslave us.

It would be perverse to embrace inconvenience as a general rule. But when we let convenience decide everything, we surrender too much...

...As task after task becomes easier, the growing expectation of convenience exerts a pressure on everything else to be easy or get left behind. We are spoiled by immediacy and become annoyed by tasks that remain at the old level of effort and time...

...But being a person is only partly about having and exercising choices. It is also about how we face up to situations that are thrust upon us, about overcoming worthy challenges and finishing difficult tasks — the struggles that help make us who we are. What happens to human experience when so many obstacles and impediments and requirements and preparations have been removed?

Today’s cult of convenience fails to acknowledge that difficulty is a constitutive feature of human experience. Convenience is all destination and no journey. [Bold Emphasis added - Ancient_Exile] But climbing a mountain is different from taking the tram to the top, even if you end up at the same place. We are becoming people who care mainly or only about outcomes. We are at risk of making most of our life experiences a series of trolley rides..." - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/opinion/sunday/tyranny-convenience.html

ChildoftheShadows · May 2020

xpsync said:

Corpse runs;

In what was considered an extreme death penalty, and or an unacceptable downtime element was what gave me the most memorable gaming experience i've ever shared with other people, SWL a close second, those dungeons were so unique, finally crafted, and hard AF. I can't compare them to anything else, they were 100% unique, they were not pug friendly at all. (funny around E6 and up they kinda became pug acceptable as the pool of players up there was so small, it wasn't much of pug as you'd recognize names when you had to fill an empty spot for someone off for the night for rl reasons.)

Being completely honest with myself i'll take the easiest route same as anyone else, but when the game won't let me, i step up and find like minded players, sometime i do, sometimes i don't, i let fate decide. But when it decides Yes, omfg the good times to be had.

This is exactly how I feel about "options" in MMOs. It seems whenever I complain about something like quest indicators people always reply with, "well, just turn it off that's what options are for", or anything like that I get even more disappointed because it is not the same. Not even close. Like you say here, I'll take the easiest route same as anyone, but man is the game soo much better to me when those options don't exist.

immodium · May 2020

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

Yes, it's tedious to care about whether our characters live or die.

ChildoftheShadows · May 2020

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

This is the equivalent to breaking your mouse. Terrible example.

Sovrath · May 2020

immodium said:

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

is finding a pencil part of the gameplay? No? Then "no."

edit: but if you had a timer on the crossword and if you don't guess correctly in a certain amount of time then the Crossword starts shifting or add and changing items then "sure."

Sounds like a fun game.

immodium · May 2020

Sovrath said:

immodium said:

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

is finding a pencil part of the gameplay? No? Then "no."

Using a pencil (or writing device) is part of the gameplay.

There's no difference between the character I'm controlling in a game and the pencil/pen used in a crossword.

They're both tools being used to complete the content.

Iselin · May 2020

Ancient_Exile said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

Yes, it's tedious to care about whether our characters live or die.

You need the threat of punishment to care? Interesting.

immodium · May 2020

ChildoftheShadows said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

This is the equivalent to breaking your mouse. Terrible example.

It doesn't have to be a physical crossword, it could be online.

Imagine your completing a word and your virtual pencil decides to brake and you have to spend 5 minutes doing nothing but find a virtual pencil sharpener in a tedious mini game.

Or it starts erasing words because your virtual pencil broke.

ChildoftheShadows · May 2020

immodium said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

This is the equivalent to breaking your mouse. Terrible example.

It doesn't have to be a physical crossword, it could be online.

Imagine your completing a word and your virtual pencil decides to brake and you have to spend 5 minutes doing nothing but find a virtual pencil sharpener in a tedious mini game.

Or it starts erasing words because your virtual pencil broke.

You act as if the mini game is inherently tedious to everyone.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

Iselin said:

Ancient_Exile said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

Yes, it's tedious to care about whether our characters live or die.

You need the threat of punishment to care? Interesting.

Is death a punishment or an inevitable consequence of life? Is death in an MMORPG a punishment or a consequence of bad decisions, poor judgment, or foolish mistakes?

Yes, there are rare cases where death can occur due to forces beyond our control in MMORPGs*. Not so rare in the case of PVP. But if we choose to participate in PVP (or we choose to play an OWPVP MMORPG), then we knew the risks beforehand.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

immodium said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

This is the equivalent to breaking your mouse. Terrible example.

It doesn't have to be a physical crossword, it could be online.

Imagine your completing a word and your virtual pencil decides to brake and you have to spend 5 minutes doing nothing but find a virtual pencil sharpener in a tedious mini game.

Or it starts erasing words because your virtual pencil broke.

But your analogy is flawed. Because I have no power over whether the pencil breaks or not in that scenario.

immodium · May 2020

ChildoftheShadows said:

immodium said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

This is the equivalent to breaking your mouse. Terrible example.

It doesn't have to be a physical crossword, it could be online.

Imagine your completing a word and your virtual pencil decides to brake and you have to spend 5 minutes doing nothing but find a virtual pencil sharpener in a tedious mini game.

Or it starts erasing words because your virtual pencil broke.

You act as if the mini game is inherently tedious to everyone.

Just my opinion. Not speaking on behalf of everyone. For me, corpse running didn't add any depth to the game play.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

immodium said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

immodium said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

This is the equivalent to breaking your mouse. Terrible example.

It doesn't have to be a physical crossword, it could be online.

Imagine your completing a word and your virtual pencil decides to brake and you have to spend 5 minutes doing nothing but find a virtual pencil sharpener in a tedious mini game.

Or it starts erasing words because your virtual pencil broke.

You act as if the mini game is inherently tedious to everyone.

Just my opinion. Not speaking on behalf of everyone. For me, corpse running didn't add any depth to the game play.

Personally, I don't like the idea of corpse runs. I don't think it makes sense for my character's corpse to remain in the game world if he's already been resurrected. But there are other kinds of Death Penalties which may be employed.

Iselin · May 2020

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Ancient_Exile said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

Yes, it's tedious to care about whether our characters live or die.

You need the threat of punishment to care? Interesting.

Is death a punishment or an inevitable consequence of life? Is death in an MMORPG a punishment or a consequence of bad decisions, poor judgment, or foolish mistakes?

Yes, there are rare cases where death can occur due to forces beyond our control in MMORPGs*. Not so rare in the case of PVP. But if we choose to participate in PVP (or we choose to play an OWPVP MMORPG), then we knew the risks beforehand.

Hey you're the one who brought up caring about whether your character lives or dies, not me. I just find the idea that you need death penalties to care about that curious.

I care with or without it because death = defeat and I play to not be defeated. I don't cry about it if I am whether in PvE or PvP, but I do care.

immodium · May 2020

Ancient_Exile said:

But your analogy is flawed. Because I have no power over whether the pencil breaks or not in that scenario.

If you're using a pencil it might brake. If you engage in combat you might die.

If you think your pencil is going to brake, replace it. If you think your character will die, flee.

Beside, whether you have power over the pencil braking is irrelevant to the discussion of death penalties as that's combat mechanics.

The purpose of the analogy was to explain how I find death penalties in MMO's. Something that doesn't add any depth to the game play.

Most death penalties in old MMOS add nothing more than a time sink as they were sub only and they wanted you to keep paying for as long as possible.

It's not a coincidence death penalties died when mandatory subs did.

EDIT: When I play a game (and yes, these are games to me. Not a virtual life in a virtual world.) and I'm finding the content fun, engaging and challenging, what I don't want to happen when I die is to take me away from that experience for up to 30 minutes just to get back to it.

I would like to get back to it pretty mush ASAP so I can try different tactics/strategies. It's why I f**kin adore quick save in single player games.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

Iselin said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Ancient_Exile said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sovrath said:

Iselin said:

Sounds like the concept of easy with no death penalty, easy with death penalty, hard with no death penalty and hard with death penalty is a much more difficult concept to understand than I ever imagined

That's because you aren't speaking about "the same thing."

People who talk about difficulty often do so by how much skill something requires.

I've used this example before but "climbing mount Washington" isn't difficult. You put one foot in front of the other. Not hard.

But not everyone is in shape to do it. What does that mean then? It means there is another axis to that difficulty. Call it endurance, perseverance, tenacity or "pick your poison" adding road blocks to any endeavor creates a "difficulty" but a difficulty that is not measured in skill.

So unless you and others are are on board and talking apples to apples of course you are going to think it a difficult concept to imagine.

I'll add as an example, the difficulty setting in Morrowind. Does it make the opponents fight better, better AI, use more and varying skills?

No, it makes it so they do more damage and you do less damage. Oh sure, it makes it more difficult but it doesn't affect "skill."

Encounters in a game without difficulty settings have their own intrinsic value on a difficulty scale. What you're talking about is extraneous factors that can make completing the encounter a bigger chore and there is no end to what could affect that.

RPG fighting games have easy encounters or hard encounters. You might consider how convenient or inconvenient it is to actually arrive at the encounter and how many things can make you go back to the beginning and travel there all over again a difficulty axis - I don't. It's a convenience or inconvenience axis, Something separate.

Expanding the meaning of what is hard or what is easy by lumping in every conceivable extraneous thing into it just dilutes the meaning. And it is also infinite and can go into what HW you use, whether you have visual or hearing impediments, and anything else you can think of.

PS: Mountaineers do rank mountains on a difficulty scale by assuming all other extraneous factors are equal

So what you are basically doing is defining difficulty on your terms and won't accept anything else.

Which goes back to exactly what I just said. Unless you are sure you are talking about the "exact same thing" you will then encounter difficulty in the conversation.

to that point, there were people who would say that leveling in Lineage 2 was "difficult." Of course it was time consuming and required endurance as well as tenacity. That wasn't an extraneous component. That was a part of of the game play.

No. What I'm doing is trying to stomp down the fallacy that death penalty = hard and no death penalty = easy.

Have you actually read how many times in this thread people have jumped to that conclusion?

Yes, a game as whole can be thought of as easy or hard but so can be pieces of it. I've very deliberately talked about the difficulty of specific encounters, i.e. fights, in games being unrelated to death penalties.

Just how the SAC mountaneering scale gives Mount Washington a specific rating without concerning itself with your physical fitness or lack thereof. They even give it different ratings for different climbs and trails.

So the fact that I could die several times in a dungeon in certain MMORPGs without having to A) Replace lost gear or B ) Repair damaged gear or C) Recover lost XP/Pay XP debt doesn't make that game easier?

When I'm doing a crossword and my pencil snaps, does hunting down a pencil sharpener add anything to the crossword, or make it harder?

And that's the issue I have with death penalties in MMO's. It only adds tedium.

Yes, it's tedious to care about whether our characters live or die.

You need the threat of punishment to care? Interesting.

Is death a punishment or an inevitable consequence of life? Is death in an MMORPG a punishment or a consequence of bad decisions, poor judgment, or foolish mistakes?

Yes, there are rare cases where death can occur due to forces beyond our control in MMORPGs*. Not so rare in the case of PVP. But if we choose to participate in PVP (or we choose to play an OWPVP MMORPG), then we knew the risks beforehand.

Hey you're the one who brought up caring about whether your character lives or dies, not me. I just find the idea that you need death penalties to care about that curious.

I care with or without it because death = defeat and I play to not be defeated. I don't cry about it if I am whether in PvE or PvP, but I do care.

Okay. I understand. I don't like dying in games even when there isn't a significant death penalty either. However, I know that I cared a lot more when I played a game that had a significant death penalty. And I believe this increased my connection to the character I played. It also increased the level of challenge, immersion, and fun I experienced. I was actually disappointed when the next MMORPG I played did not have such a significant death penalty.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

But your analogy is flawed. Because I have no power over whether the pencil breaks or not in that scenario.

If you're using a pencil it might brake. If you engage in combat you might die.

If you think your pencil is going to brake, replace it. If you think your character will die, flee.

Beside, whether you have power over the pencil braking is irrelevant to the discussion of death penalties as that's combat mechanics.

The purpose of the analogy was to explain how I find death penalties in MMO's. Something that doesn't add any depth to the game play.

Most death penalties in old MMOS add nothing more than a time sink as they were sub only and they wanted you to keep paying for as long as possible.

It's not a coincidence death penalties died when mandatory subs did.

When I play a game (and yes, these are games to me. Not a virtual life in a virtual world.) and I'm finding the content fun, engaging and challenging, what I don't want to happen when I die is to take me away from that experience for up to 30 minutes just to get back to it.

I would like to get back to it pretty mush ASAP so I can try different tactics/strategies.

So what isn't a time sink in an MMORPG? I asked that question of another person a little while ago. He told me something like, "anything that helped his character to progress wasn't a time sink."

So, that basically means that anything not directly related to the acquisition of wealth and power, principally power (as wealth is a form of power), is a time sink. And I suppose that's understandable. Because, in the end, all that matters in 90%+ of MMORPGs is personal power. Thus most players begin to value power above all else in MMORPGs, subconsciously or no.

But the sad thing is, there isn't much that players can do with all the wealth and power their characters acquire besides the same things they did to acquire that wealth and power in the first place. This is made even more blatantly obvious now that getting to max level is so relatively fast and easy in comparison to the older MMORPGs.

immodium · May 2020

Ancient_Exile said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

But your analogy is flawed. Because I have no power over whether the pencil breaks or not in that scenario.

If you're using a pencil it might brake. If you engage in combat you might die.

If you think your pencil is going to brake, replace it. If you think your character will die, flee.

Beside, whether you have power over the pencil braking is irrelevant to the discussion of death penalties as that's combat mechanics.

The purpose of the analogy was to explain how I find death penalties in MMO's. Something that doesn't add any depth to the game play.

Most death penalties in old MMOS add nothing more than a time sink as they were sub only and they wanted you to keep paying for as long as possible.

It's not a coincidence death penalties died when mandatory subs did.

When I play a game (and yes, these are games to me. Not a virtual life in a virtual world.) and I'm finding the content fun, engaging and challenging, what I don't want to happen when I die is to take me away from that experience for up to 30 minutes just to get back to it.

I would like to get back to it pretty mush ASAP so I can try different tactics/strategies.

So what isn't a time sink in an MMORPG? I asked that question of another person a little while ago. He told me something like, "anything that helped his character to progress wasn't a time sink."

So, that basically means that anything not directly related to the acquisition of wealth and power, principally power (as wealth is a form of power), is a time sink. And I suppose that's understandable. Because, in the end, all that matters in 90%+ of MMORPGs is personal power. Thus most players begin to value power above all else in MMORPGs, subconsciously or no.

But the sad thing is, there isn't much that players can do with all the wealth and power their characters acquire besides the same things they did to acquire that wealth and power in the first place. This is made even more blatantly obvious now that getting to max level is so relatively fast and easy in comparison to the older MMORPGs.

I'm guessing everything is a waste of time, its whether you're finding it fun or not.

The problem with death mechanics they don't engage you into thinking why you died or how you could prevent it from happening.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

But your analogy is flawed. Because I have no power over whether the pencil breaks or not in that scenario.

If you're using a pencil it might brake. If you engage in combat you might die.

If you think your pencil is going to brake, replace it. If you think your character will die, flee.

Beside, whether you have power over the pencil braking is irrelevant to the discussion of death penalties as that's combat mechanics.

The purpose of the analogy was to explain how I find death penalties in MMO's. Something that doesn't add any depth to the game play.

Most death penalties in old MMOS add nothing more than a time sink as they were sub only and they wanted you to keep paying for as long as possible.

It's not a coincidence death penalties died when mandatory subs did.

When I play a game (and yes, these are games to me. Not a virtual life in a virtual world.) and I'm finding the content fun, engaging and challenging, what I don't want to happen when I die is to take me away from that experience for up to 30 minutes just to get back to it.

I would like to get back to it pretty mush ASAP so I can try different tactics/strategies.

So what isn't a time sink in an MMORPG? I asked that question of another person a little while ago. He told me something like, "anything that helped his character to progress wasn't a time sink."

So, that basically means that anything not directly related to the acquisition of wealth and power, principally power (as wealth is a form of power), is a time sink. And I suppose that's understandable. Because, in the end, all that matters in 90%+ of MMORPGs is personal power. Thus most players begin to value power above all else in MMORPGs, subconsciously or no.

But the sad thing is, there isn't much that players can do with all the wealth and power their characters acquire besides the same things they did to acquire that wealth and power in the first place. This is made even more blatantly obvious now that getting to max level is so relatively fast and easy in comparison to the older MMORPGs.

I'm guessing everything is a waste of time, its whether you're finding it fun or not.

The problem with death mechanics they don't engage you into thinking why you died or how you could prevent it from happening.

They don't? A significant death penalty (XP Debt) in Runes of Magic sure inspired me to make wiser choices about what I chose to do with my character. If I didn't feel confident I that had a decent chance of survival while doing something, then I wouldn't do it.

And, yes, sadly, I do think that the vast majority of MMORPGs are a total waste of time. Which is why I don't play most of them anymore. And also why I think and write a lot about how they could be better. Which is usually more entertaining than playing 90%+ of them.

MMORPGs are a pale shadow of what they could be. They could be so much better. And it wouldn't even require the development of incredibly advanced AI to make them so. Just the ability to dream and the will to innovate. Along with the necessary funds, resources, and personnel to make those dreams and innovations a reality, of course.

KnightFalz · May 2020

Ancient_Exile said:

tzervo said:

KnightFalz said:

tzervo said:
It is not about the encounter's difficulty, it is about making interesting decisions with their corresponding consequences and/or rewards.

If the loss mechanics are not paired with interesting decisions, then they are a mere annoyance and the design is bad.

Decisions relating to how to, or even whether to, regain what I already had don't sound all that interesting to me. For me it is simply an annoyance that wastes time that could otherwise be spent productively.

This is a rationalization.

A quote from a blog that put it succinctly in words with an example:
So the player has a choice to grind X hours to get emblems or to get lucky with a low chance drop to get the upgrade. Or, he can engage in a risky mission that can give him the same upgrade in a single hour if he succeeds but Y hours of grind to get back where he is if he loses.
The time cost of the grinding choice is obviously X hours. For the risky choice, the time cost is: 1+(1-C)*(X+Y) where C is the chance of success. The “1” part is the one hour for the risky mission. The (X+Y) part comes from the assumption that after he failed, he just gives up and grinds. It’s easier to calculate with this than with repeated attempts and the result is the same. The player wants to minimize time to reward, so chooses the shorter one. The risky is shorter if X > 1+(1-C)*(X+Y) which can be solved into C > (1+Y)/(X+Y). Assuming the death penalty is 10 hours and you need to grind 100 hours, you should take the risk if your chance is bigger than 11/110 = 10%.
It’s a straightforward formula. Where is the “interesting decision”? It comes from the fact that your chance cannot be measured, it can only be approximated and it lies on the elusive self-consciousness. The question comes down to “how good I am/the team is in this game”? This is always an interesting thing to think about.
https://greedygoblinblog.wordpress.com/2018/01/09/the-interesting-decision-around-death-penalty/
As far as I am concerned, the rest of the blog post also makes some interesting points, even though they sting.

In accordance with my vow, I have read the article which you graciously chose to share with the rest of the class. I found it to be interesting, intriguing, enlightening, and entertaining all wrapped up and rolled into one.

"...Why did the death penalty diminished, along with the whole MMO scene? Because it’s hard to deny that the MMOs are in horrible shape. The most successful one, WoW is stagnating/losing players for years and there are no serious contenders with even 1/10 of its playerbase.

This is because they made the wrong choice of including entitled punks. Not casuals, not even socials. Casuals, like a middle aged mum who plays while the kids are asleep is aware of her limited skills. She is fine with the grinding. Actually, she likes the easy and interruptible entertainment of being in a magical world. The social is fine being around, being involved with the group instead of being at the tip of the spear. This is crucial: death penalty isn’t a problem to low-skill players as long as they are self-aware and have a grindy alternative path of progression...

...Please realize the catch: by removing death penalty, neither the skilled, nor the casual/social players got help. The entitled punks did, the group that you really don’t want in any group game. By removing death penalty, the devs invited the most toxic people: those who look down on fellow players based on oversized ego and blame and curse them for their own frequent failures..."

I think it's simpler than that. The less harsh death penalties became the less people complained about them, so they kept easing them more over time as new game came to the market to the point they are largely trivial in most MMORPGs.

Death penalties are a problem for "low-skill" players as they are inhibit what that player is inclined to do. Without they can attempt more and accordingly learn more, leading to an experience less laced with drudgery.

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Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

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Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

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