Originally posted by ViolentY Originally posted by AlexAmore
Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by AlexAmore That's a very narrow-minded perspective. If you were a lion you would think lions are more important than humans.
No, if I was a lion I wouldn't have abstract thoughts. When a lion can come onto a message board and debate his importance with me, he won't need to since I'll accept him as an equal then.
Why does a lion need to speak human to show you His equality? I think it wasn't too far back blacks spoke fine english and still treated like shit. So really its because animals can't speak english and are of a different body type that they are inferior? Oookay.
What if lions had our technology? They would still eat other animals. Biology dictates that they are carnivores. They eat only meat. You should be trying to convert animals to become vegans. I mean... we're all animals, aren't we? If we can become herbivores, then so can lions.
There is no language called "human." Animals don't speak different languages. They lack the brain capacity to have, as was pointed out by Pantastic, abstract thought. This isn't The Wild Thornberries.
Comparing someone's skin, even though they have the same brain and thought patterns as a highly evolved, sentient being, to an animal is a horrible metaphor. Black people are not inferior. Animals are. Black people have different skin and bone structures. Animals have different biological DNA. If you think just because they have a nervous system that they are exactly equal to humans, then why don't you keep fighting until animals are recognized world-wide as a native race with their own respective cultures that should be preserved by treaties, diplomacy, and peace-"talks"?
Using those violent videos are a low form of "swaying" people. If people showed videos of war crimes, do you think we should all just step up and stop war? Sometimes war is necessary. It's as inherent in humans as eating animals.
What is the need of treating the animals in an extremly cruel and inhumane manner? Just because its going to be used for food doesnt mean it needs to be put in a pen the size of the animal, or tightly packed into a cage with dozens more.
Im no vegetarian, but there is no need for that kind of treatment. Animals may not have the brain capacity of a human, but they still feel pain, which you would see if you watched those videos.
[quote=Orcc]I couldnt believe how they castrated and branded that cow, that was just... ugh.[/quote]
I've castrated bulls. And hogs.
And while I can understand how it would seem shocking to people who have never dealt with livestock before, it's not that big a deal. This is just one of those unpleasant necessities I mentioned in my earlier post.
First, you can rest assured that the vast majority of people who have to do that particular job are not enjoying it.
Second, although the animal most certainly feels a great deal of pain for a brief time, it heals in a week or two and forgets about it. Now I know that the anthropomorphizers out there won't want to believe that the animals don't suffer any long term psychological trauma from it...but they don't.
They are animals, not humans. They don't really understand what happened to them. They don't worry about it like a human would ---OMG THEY CUT MY BALLS OUT!!---. All they know is ----IT HURTS!!---- and then later it doesn't. They aren't worrying about it. They aren't being teased by the other animals about it. They really have no concept of what happened to them. Animals just don't think that way.
This is just one of those things where there is a huge gulf between people who grew up working with animals and many of the people who have spent their entire lives in a city with only pampered pets to deal with. There is a kind of hard practicality that you learn when you work with livestock that city dwellers just never have to learn. It's not cruelty it's just doing what has to be done even if it is unpleasant. You learn to set aside squeemishness and sentimentality and just do what has to be done.
I know that people like myself seem barbaric to many of you who never had to learn that lesson. But to me, you seem childlike. I don't mean that in a bad way exactly. I just mean that to me you really are like children who never fully developed. You never learned that basic lesson of how to NOT give in to soft-heartedness when you need to do something that seems harsh or even cruel, but is necessary.
Of course animals have abstract thought or else they would be dead and unable to defend themselves...ect All abstract thought means is if they can think logically and of course the answer is yes. If a living being can't think logically then they cease to live. I wonder where mentally retarded humans stand on your chart of superiority - after all they have an even less IQ than that of a lion...maybe you guys can eat him!
I never thought I'd see the day someone would actually brazenly and most stupidly claim that a Lion has a higher IQ than a mentally deficient human - And that animals claim some kind of logic.
It's no wonder the government would label PETA as terrorists, they obviously have the same problem with mentally deluded visions, and willing to go to whatever extents to accomplish them.
Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by AlexAmore Of course animals have abstract thought or else they would be dead and unable to defend themselves...ect All abstract thought means is if they can think logically and of course the answer is yes. If a living being can't think logically then they cease to live. I wonder where mentally retarded humans stand on your chart of superiority - after all they have an even less IQ than that of a lion...maybe you guys can eat him! I never thought I'd see the day someone would actually brazenly and most stupidly claim that a Lion has a higher IQ than a mentally deficient human - And that animals claim some kind of logic. It's no wonder the government would label PETA as terrorists, they obviously have the same problem with mentally deluded visions, and willing to go to whatever extents to accomplish them. It's true. Why can lions feed themselves, find shelter, be a parent, defend.....ect. While a Mentally retarded person can't do any of that and needs to be taken care of through their entire life. My mother took in a mentally ill person as a kind of foster parent and I lived with one for a many months. I know how mentally ill people are and there is nothing wrong with it and they are not bad people...I wasn't implying that. I was just putting it into perspective for you people with your superiority complex.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Peta has not been labeled as terrorists by the government.
Don't you think they would shut them down if they were. Cmon, think about what you are saying.
ALF is a radical loose knit organization that has conducted terrorism in the name of animal rights. They may or may not have members who are affiliated with Peta, but they are not publicly linked, and if the FBI could prove there was a link, they would shut Peta down.
Enough of the disinformation about Peta.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Neanderthal I've castrated bulls. And hogs. And while I can understand how it would seem shocking to people who have never dealt with livestock before, it's not that big a deal. This is just one of those unpleasant necessities I mentioned in my earlier post.
Correction: It's not a big deal...for you. It's not necessary in life. First, you can rest assured that the vast majority of people who have to do that particular job are not enjoying it.
You can be rest assured the animals are not enjoying it even more Second, although the animal most certainly feels a great deal of pain for a brief time, it heals in a week or two and forgets about it. Now I know that the anthropomorphizers out there won't want to believe that the animals don't suffer any long term psychological trauma from it...but they don't.
How do you know they forget about it? How do you know they aren't traumatized? They are animals, not humans. They don't really understand what happened to them. They don't worry about it like a human would ---OMG THEY CUT MY BALLS OUT!!---. All they know is ----IT HURTS!!---- and then later it doesn't. They aren't worrying about it. They aren't being teased by the other animals about it. They really have no concept of what happened to them. Animals just don't think that way.
Humans are animals. If we are animals then they maybe those animals of a different species are screaming OMG THEY CUT MY BALLS!! We don't know but logic says they are pissed. This is just one of those things where there is a huge gulf between people who grew up working with animals and many of the people who have spent their entire lives in a city with only pampered pets to deal with. There is a kind of hard practicality that you learn when you work with livestock that city dwellers just never have to learn. It's not cruelty it's just doing what has to be done even if it is unpleasant. You learn to set aside squeemishness and sentimentality and just do what has to be done.
It's not about you being squeemish. At this point I could care less about you. I hope you are squeemish when you are treating those animals like crap. It's the animals that must go through torture that i'm concerned about. I know that people like myself seem barbaric to many of you who never had to learn that lesson. But to me, you seem childlike. I don't mean that in a bad way exactly. I just mean that to me you really are like children who never fully developed. You never learned that basic lesson of how to NOT give in to soft-heartedness when you need to do something that seems harsh or even cruel, but is necessary.
You seem childlike. Children hurt other children and don't understand fully what their doing. You know those bullys at school who tease and hurt children. Again I have no idea how think this is necessary and none of your arguments have proof.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by AlexAmore It's true. Why can lions feed themselves, find shelter, be a parent, defend.....ect. While a Mentally retarded person can't do any of that and needs to be taken care of through their entire life. My mother took in a mentally ill person as a kind of foster parent and I lived with one for a many months. I know how mentally ill people are and there is nothing wrong with it and they are not bad people...I wasn't implying that. I was just putting it into perspective for you people with your superiority complex.
Humans out of all mammals could possibly be considered the least instinctual. We have a conscience, we have higher brain functions, we are analytical logical beings(Some excused, of course).
Our intelligent quotient is usually judged on our ability to figure out patterns, solve puzzles, and comprehend that which is around us. It's our ability to learn in a sense. Mentally retarded people have a harder time learning, hence their seeming stupidity. It's definitely not to say they can't learn, but rather it is harder for them to learn. And because of our culture, and our modernized world, and the fact that our instincts are dulled by the human world and it's complications, it would be near impossible for a mental retard to survive in such a world.
Lions can do all the aforementioned from instinct in a natural habitat, nothing more. It has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.
That's like stating a hive of bee's sting if you attack them because of some kind of intellectaul defense.
Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by AlexAmore It's true. Why can lions feed themselves, find shelter, be a parent, defend.....ect. While a Mentally retarded person can't do any of that and needs to be taken care of through their entire life. My mother took in a mentally ill person as a kind of foster parent and I lived with one for a many months. I know how mentally ill people are and there is nothing wrong with it and they are not bad people...I wasn't implying that. I was just putting it into perspective for you people with your superiority complex.
Humans out of all mammals could possibly be considered the least instinctual. We have a conscience, we have higher brain functions, we are analytical logical beings(Some excused, of course).
Our intelligent quotient is usually judged on our ability to figure out patterns, solve puzzles, and comprehend that which is around us. It's our ability to learn in a sense. Mentally retarded people have a harder time learning, hence their seeming stupidity. It's definitely not to say they can't learn, but rather it is harder for them to learn. And because of our culture, and our modernized world, and the fact that our instincts are dulled by the human world and it's complications, it would be near impossible for a mental retard to survive in such a world.
Lions can do all the aforementioned from instinct in a natural habitat, nothing more. It has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.
Of course we know that lions can learn a lot, you see them acting out their parts in hollywood movies...just like lots of other animals. They all can learn. Of course you can't just measure an animals intelligence through a human atmosphere...any scientist will tell you thats stupid. It's like telling an apple to go hang out and with a bunch of oranges, speak orange, show orange intelligence, and have high orange IQ. In the end niether apple nor orange is inferior, people will have opinions but its not a fact.
That's like stating a hive of bee's sting if you attack them because of some kind of intellectaul defense.
Okay all animals (except humans) are nothing but robotic drones preprogrammed to sustain themselves and nothing more....I think you need to watch more National geographic and discovery channel. You clearly have no idea how other animal's physcology works. Again Logic dictates animals are very smart. For example I have lived with dogs all my life and they are super smart, take guide dogs for the blind: Do you want a guide dog to guide you through traffic blindfolded or a retard?
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by AlexAmore Of course we know that lions can learn a lot, you see them acting out their parts in hollywood movies...just like lots of other animals. They all can learn. Of course you can't just measure an animals intelligence through a human atmosphere...any scientist will tell you thats stupid. It's like telling an apple to go hang out and with a bunch of oranges, speak orange, show orange intelligence, and have high orange IQ. In the end niether apple nor orange is inferior, people will have opinions but its not a fact.
Okay all animals (except humans) are nothing but robotic drones preprogrammed to sustain themselves and nothing more....I think you need to watch more National geographic and discovery channel. You clearly have no idea how other animal's physcology works. Again Logic dictates animals are very smart. For example I have lived with dogs all my life and they are super smart, take guide dogs for the blind: Do you want a guide dog to guide you through traffic blindfolded or a retard?
I'm sorry, how does this prove that animals have abstract thought?
Because they guide blind people through traffic? Uhhh...
Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by tetsul
Originally posted by AlexAmore Dude does it really matter who the F*** is behind the camera??? Nope because the camera doesn't lie. That animal abuse is animal abuse no matter who video taped it.
It certainly the hell does matter when the person holding the camera is affilated with someone the FBI labels a terrorist group. Their opinions have a tendancy to tank at that moment. Sorry buddy the video camera doesn't lie. I don't care if its Osama Bin Laden in the factory farm video taping the abuse.
Just a heads up here, this is 2006, not 1976, cameras can and do lie, depending on who is holding and who is editing the end material.
PETA has both the money and the motive to put together just about anything that suits them, and they would have no moral quarrels what so ever about doing it.
Personally, I would not believe anything they released, regardless of how high a quality movie they released.
I would not put it past them to skin animals alive and tape it and then say the tape is from some fur farm somewere.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by AlexAmore Of course we know that lions can learn a lot, you see them acting out their parts in hollywood movies...just like lots of other animals. They all can learn. Of course you can't just measure an animals intelligence through a human atmosphere...any scientist will tell you thats stupid. It's like telling an apple to go hang out and with a bunch of oranges, speak orange, show orange intelligence, and have high orange IQ. In the end niether apple nor orange is inferior, people will have opinions but its not a fact.
Okay all animals (except humans) are nothing but robotic drones preprogrammed to sustain themselves and nothing more....I think you need to watch more National geographic and discovery channel. You clearly have no idea how other animal's physcology works. Again Logic dictates animals are very smart. For example I have lived with dogs all my life and they are super smart, take guide dogs for the blind: Do you want a guide dog to guide you through traffic blindfolded or a retard?
I'm sorry, how does this prove that animals have abstract thought?
Because they guide blind people through traffic? Uhhh...
It was an example ...comprehension ftw! (Aren't you trying to convince me of your human intellect?). How can you prove animals don't have abstract thought and do you even know what abstract thought it? Because you aren't using it.
My guide for the blind dog example vs mentally ill was in response to the fact that you think animals lack logic and have less intelligence than a mentally ill. You clearly have done no research on the topic.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by Umbrood Just a heads up here, this is 2006, not 1976, cameras can and do lie, depending on who is holding and who is editing the end material. PETA has both the money and the motive to put together just about anything that suits them, and they would have no moral quarrels what so ever about doing it. Personally, I would not believe anything they released, regardless of how high a quality movie they released. I would not put it past them to skin animals alive and tape it and then say the tape is from some fur farm somewere.
I doubt you even watched the videos then. So you think factory farms are infact where a bunch of decent animal loving people work? You think the animals are in fine condition and live full lives? Talk about fantasy land.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
I wish I could have a meaningful conversation with you Alex but we don't even live in the same reality.
I live in the real world and you live in some disney-esque world where lions have a lion language and cattle have a cattle language and oranges have an orange I.Q.
I must say I envy you in some ways. Your reality, where the animals talk to each other with complex languages and sit around thinking abstract thoughts, must be a much more magical place than my reality.
Strangely enough I remember a time when I did live in a reality closer to yours. When I was very, very young I remember watching a Christmas special on television in which they said that on midnight of Christmas eve the animals can talk. Of course I knew it wasn't so, but at that time, when I was very young, I lived in a reality close enough to yours so that I could almost believe it if I tried hard. So I snuck outside in the freezing wheather and sat with the dogs...watching my wrist-watch and waiting for midnight.
It's all a bit foggy and vague now but I do still remember the magical world I lived in when I was very young. Unfortunately....I grew up. And as I did I had to let go of all of those childish imaginings and fantasies. I wonder what it would be like to be an adult who never outgrew his early childhood? It seems a bit sad looking at it from the outside...but for you it must be a wonderful and magical thing.
Originally posted by Neanderthal I wish I could have a meaningful conversation with you Alex but we don't even live in the same reality. I live in the real world and you live in some disney-esque world where lions have a lion language and cattle have a cattle language and oranges have an orange I.Q. I must say I envy you in some ways. Your reality, where the animals talk to each other with complex languages and sit around thinking abstract thoughts, must be a much more magical place than my reality. Strangely enough I remember a time when I did live in a reality closer to yours. When I was very, very young I remember watching a Christmas special on television in which they said that on midnight of Christmas eve the animals can talk. Of course I knew it wasn't so, but at that time, when I was very young, I lived in a reality close enough to yours so that I could almost believe it if I tried hard. So I snuck outside in the freezing wheather and sat with the dogs...watching my wrist-watch and waiting for midnight. It's all a bit foggy and vague now but I do still remember the magical world I lived in when I was very young. Unfortunately....I grew up. And as I did I had to let go of all of those childish imaginings and fantasies. I wonder what it would be like to be an adult who never outgrew his early childhood? It seems a bit sad looking at it from the outside...but for you it must be a wonderful and magical thing.
Science has proven animals can speak....obviously not human but they have a language. Of course parrots actually can speak human but their an exception.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
(Aren't you trying to convince me of your human intellect?).
Of course - Wise and mighty noname on the internet. My search to prove my intellect to one such as yourself has reached far and wide.
Give me thy bidding master...
How can you prove animals don't have abstract thought and do you even know what abstract thought it?
I'm quite aware - Apparantly though, you are not, with your original statement of animals posessing it proving as such.
Because you aren't using it.
Because I fail to see the the horrid correlation you presented? Uhh, yes, of course, how silly of me.
My guide for the blind dog example vs mentally ill was in response to the fact that you think animals lack logic and have less intelligence than a mentally ill.
You somehow tie-in instinct and precise training with logic and intelligence? How obtuse.
Next you'll be saying because parrots are mimics it must mean they have acute human intelligence and will be writing poems to rival Shakespeare!
You clearly have done no research on the topic.
Of course - My assessment that canines do not come near to rivaling that of a human brain must adduce that I am ignorant on the subject...
(Aren't you trying to convince me of your human intellect?).
Of course - Wise and mighty noname on the internet. My search to prove my intellect to one such as yourself has reached far and wide.
Give me thy bidding master...
How can you prove animals don't have abstract thought and do you even know what abstract thought it?
I'm quite aware - Apparantly though, you are not, with your original statement of animals posessing it proving as such.
Because you aren't using it.
Because I fail to see the the horrid correlation you presented? Uhh, yes, of course, how silly of me.
My guide for the blind dog example vs mentally ill was in response to the fact that you think animals lack logic and have less intelligence than a mentally ill.
You somehow tie-in instinct and precise training with logic and intelligence? How obtuse.
To even train them they would need to possess logic and intelligence!!
Next you'll be saying because parrots are mimics it must mean they have acute human intelligence and will be writing poems to rival Shakespeare!
You clearly have done no research on the topic.
Of course - My assessment that canines do not come near to rivaling that of a human brain must adduce that I am ignorant on the subject...
Your arguments completely disregard years of research that scientists have gone through. They have made many discoveries of amazing animal intelligence. You don't want to look at it and so I can't argue with you anymore. You have no scientific basis for your claims.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
To even train them they would need to possess logic and intelligence!!
Are we still on this logic BS? I never refuted animal intelligence - Your asinine claims of them being of equal intelligence - Not to mention posessing logic - to that of a mental retarded human I refuted, and for good reason, it was fallacious, and unscientific.
As neanderthal said, you're living in a faerie land - This isn't Narnia.
Your arguments completely disregard years of research that scientists have gone through. They have made many discoveries of amazing animal intelligence.
I, nor you, never said anything about animals posessing a certain intelligence in their own right. Please stay on subject.
You don't want to look at it and so I can't argue with you anymore. You have no scientific basis for your claims.
Irony - Someone who makes such brazen claims as yourself bringing scientific basis into this argument - Laughable.
Originally posted by AlexAmore Science has proven animals can speak....obviously not human but they have a language. Of course parrots actually can speak human but their an exception.
no parrots cannot 'speak human'. they can mimic pretty much anything.
i can say mooo but i don't speak cow.
gtg the delivery from china hut is here, mmm this general tso's cat is some tasty stuff
Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by AlexAmore
To even train them they would need to possess logic and intelligence!!
Are we still on this logic BS? I never refuted animal intelligence - Your asinine claims of them being of equal intelligence - Not to mention posessing logic - to that of a mental retarded human I refuted, and for good reason, it was fallacious, and unscientific.
As neanderthal said, you're living in a faerie land - This isn't Narnia.
Your arguments completely disregard years of research that scientists have gone through. They have made many discoveries of amazing animal intelligence.
I, nor you, never said anything about animals posessing a certain intelligence in their own right. Please stay on subject.
You don't want to look at it and so I can't argue with you anymore. You have no scientific basis for your claims.
Irony - Someone who makes such brazen claims as yourself bringing scientific basis into this argument - Laughable.
You were saying animals lack abstract thought and i'm saying they do have abstract thought again because science has proven it. I am bringing scientific basis into this discussion because its been proven....scientifically.
Sorry if I confused intelligence with abstract thought....kind of the samething though
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Science has proven animals can speak....obviously not human but they have a language. Of course parrots actually can speak human but their an exception.
no parrots cannot 'speak human'. they can mimic pretty much anything.
i can say mooo but i don't speak cow.
gtg the delivery from china hut is here, mmm this general tso's cat is some tasty stuff
When I say speak human I mean they can say a word a human might say regardless of language (english, russian, spanish...ect). They are all human languages. Little human babies and toddlers learn to speak english through mimicking their parents, just like a parrot may mimic a human. I have seen parrots having discussions with humans...usually not serious discussions but a discussion nontheless.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by AlexAmore You were saying animals lack abstract thought and i'm saying they do have abstract thought again because science has proven it. I am bringing scientific basis into this discussion because its been proven....scientifically. Sorry if I confused intelligence with abstract thought....kind of the samething though
Prove it. Prove all of your claims - scientifically of course. Prove that animals posess an intelligent quotient greater than that of a mental deficient person, prove that animals posess the ability to reason.
This pitter-pattering back and forth is coming to no avail, so this can be solved quite simplistically.
Originally posted by JoHosephat Originally posted by AlexAmore You were saying animals lack abstract thought and i'm saying they do have abstract thought again because science has proven it. I am bringing scientific basis into this discussion because its been proven....scientifically. Sorry if I confused intelligence with abstract thought....kind of the samething though
Prove it. Prove all of your claims - scientifically of course. Prove that animals posess an intelligent quotient greater than that of a mental deficient person, prove that animals posess the ability to reason.
This pitter-pattering back and forth is coming to no avail, so this can be solved quite simplistically.
I now realize my mental retarded comparison was faulty. Obviously there are varying degrees of a mental illness. I was using Jason (mentally ill person I lived with) as my example. I don't think you have ever lived with a mentally ill person so I don't think you could really understand how they live. They basically need someone to take care of them for their entire life or else they die. They can't put clothes on, feed themselves, take a shower,...or anything else besides playing with their toys and when I say playing with toys they just bang toys together. On the otherhand we know that animals are very self sustaining, can take baths, can feed themselves. Wolves work together to take down prey that are way bigger than them alone (bears), that takes team work, communication, and logic.
And don't give me any BS about "well they had to learn it first"...well for you to do anything at all YOU had to learn it too! Obviously these links I brought you too are putting animals in a human environment and of course they are going to perform worse than humans, just like if you were to get abducted by aliens and they tried getting you to perform their wierd experiments to measure intelligence, you would of course do worse than aliens and the aliens would deem you as "not smart".
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Comments
No, if I was a lion I wouldn't have abstract thoughts. When a lion can come onto a message board and debate his importance with me, he won't need to since I'll accept him as an equal then.
Why does a lion need to speak human to show you His equality? I think it wasn't too far back blacks spoke fine english and still treated like shit. So really its because animals can't speak english and are of a different body type that they are inferior? Oookay.
What if lions had our technology? They would still eat other animals. Biology dictates that they are carnivores. They eat only meat. You should be trying to convert animals to become vegans. I mean... we're all animals, aren't we? If we can become herbivores, then so can lions.
There is no language called "human." Animals don't speak different languages. They lack the brain capacity to have, as was pointed out by Pantastic, abstract thought. This isn't The Wild Thornberries.
Comparing someone's skin, even though they have the same brain and thought patterns as a highly evolved, sentient being, to an animal is a horrible metaphor. Black people are not inferior. Animals are. Black people have different skin and bone structures. Animals have different biological DNA. If you think just because they have a nervous system that they are exactly equal to humans, then why don't you keep fighting until animals are recognized world-wide as a native race with their own respective cultures that should be preserved by treaties, diplomacy, and peace-"talks"?
Using those violent videos are a low form of "swaying" people. If people showed videos of war crimes, do you think we should all just step up and stop war? Sometimes war is necessary. It's as inherent in humans as eating animals.
What is the need of treating the animals in an extremly cruel and inhumane manner? Just because its going to be used for food doesnt mean it needs to be put in a pen the size of the animal, or tightly packed into a cage with dozens more.
Im no vegetarian, but there is no need for that kind of treatment. Animals may not have the brain capacity of a human, but they still feel pain, which you would see if you watched those videos.
[quote=Orcc]I couldnt believe how they castrated and branded that cow, that was just... ugh.[/quote]
I've castrated bulls. And hogs.
And while I can understand how it would seem shocking to people who have never dealt with livestock before, it's not that big a deal. This is just one of those unpleasant necessities I mentioned in my earlier post.
First, you can rest assured that the vast majority of people who have to do that particular job are not enjoying it.
Second, although the animal most certainly feels a great deal of pain for a brief time, it heals in a week or two and forgets about it. Now I know that the anthropomorphizers out there won't want to believe that the animals don't suffer any long term psychological trauma from it...but they don't.
They are animals, not humans. They don't really understand what happened to them. They don't worry about it like a human would ---OMG THEY CUT MY BALLS OUT!!---. All they know is ----IT HURTS!!---- and then later it doesn't. They aren't worrying about it. They aren't being teased by the other animals about it. They really have no concept of what happened to them. Animals just don't think that way.
This is just one of those things where there is a huge gulf between people who grew up working with animals and many of the people who have spent their entire lives in a city with only pampered pets to deal with. There is a kind of hard practicality that you learn when you work with livestock that city dwellers just never have to learn. It's not cruelty it's just doing what has to be done even if it is unpleasant. You learn to set aside squeemishness and sentimentality and just do what has to be done.
I know that people like myself seem barbaric to many of you who never had to learn that lesson. But to me, you seem childlike. I don't mean that in a bad way exactly. I just mean that to me you really are like children who never fully developed. You never learned that basic lesson of how to NOT give in to soft-heartedness when you need to do something that seems harsh or even cruel, but is necessary.
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"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Peta has not been labeled as terrorists by the government.
Don't you think they would shut them down if they were. Cmon, think about what you are saying.
ALF is a radical loose knit organization that has conducted terrorism in the name of animal rights. They may or may not have members who are affiliated with Peta, but they are not publicly linked, and if the FBI could prove there was a link, they would shut Peta down.
Enough of the disinformation about Peta.
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Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
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"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Humans out of all mammals could possibly be considered the least instinctual. We have a conscience, we have higher brain functions, we are analytical logical beings(Some excused, of course).
Our intelligent quotient is usually judged on our ability to figure out patterns, solve puzzles, and comprehend that which is around us. It's our ability to learn in a sense. Mentally retarded people have a harder time learning, hence their seeming stupidity. It's definitely not to say they can't learn, but rather it is harder for them to learn. And because of our culture, and our modernized world, and the fact that our instincts are dulled by the human world and it's complications, it would be near impossible for a mental retard to survive in such a world.
Lions can do all the aforementioned from instinct in a natural habitat, nothing more. It has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.
That's like stating a hive of bee's sting if you attack them because of some kind of intellectaul defense.
Humans out of all mammals could possibly be considered the least instinctual. We have a conscience, we have higher brain functions, we are analytical logical beings(Some excused, of course).
Our intelligent quotient is usually judged on our ability to figure out patterns, solve puzzles, and comprehend that which is around us. It's our ability to learn in a sense. Mentally retarded people have a harder time learning, hence their seeming stupidity. It's definitely not to say they can't learn, but rather it is harder for them to learn. And because of our culture, and our modernized world, and the fact that our instincts are dulled by the human world and it's complications, it would be near impossible for a mental retard to survive in such a world.
Lions can do all the aforementioned from instinct in a natural habitat, nothing more. It has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.
Of course we know that lions can learn a lot, you see them acting out their parts in hollywood movies...just like lots of other animals. They all can learn. Of course you can't just measure an animals intelligence through a human atmosphere...any scientist will tell you thats stupid. It's like telling an apple to go hang out and with a bunch of oranges, speak orange, show orange intelligence, and have high orange IQ. In the end niether apple nor orange is inferior, people will have opinions but its not a fact.
That's like stating a hive of bee's sting if you attack them because of some kind of intellectaul defense.
Okay all animals (except humans) are nothing but robotic drones preprogrammed to sustain themselves and nothing more....I think you need to watch more National geographic and discovery channel. You clearly have no idea how other animal's physcology works. Again Logic dictates animals are very smart. For example I have lived with dogs all my life and they are super smart, take guide dogs for the blind: Do you want a guide dog to guide you through traffic blindfolded or a retard?
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
I'm sorry, how does this prove that animals have abstract thought?
Because they guide blind people through traffic? Uhhh...
Sorry buddy the video camera doesn't lie. I don't care if its Osama Bin Laden in the factory farm video taping the abuse.
Just a heads up here, this is 2006, not 1976, cameras can and do lie, depending on who is holding and who is editing the end material.
PETA has both the money and the motive to put together just about anything that suits them, and they would have no moral quarrels what so ever about doing it.
Personally, I would not believe anything they released, regardless of how high a quality movie they released.
I would not put it past them to skin animals alive and tape it and then say the tape is from some fur farm somewere.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Ooooh yes, completely agree!!!!
People are smarter then animals, humans should not abuse animals because off our more intelligence.
Whitout animals, world is chaos!! Fight for the animals!!
I will eat animals but I think they should suffer as little as posible.
Dont torture the animals before you eat them.
I'm sorry, how does this prove that animals have abstract thought?
Because they guide blind people through traffic? Uhhh...
It was an example ...comprehension ftw! (Aren't you trying to convince me of your human intellect?). How can you prove animals don't have abstract thought and do you even know what abstract thought it? Because you aren't using it.
My guide for the blind dog example vs mentally ill was in response to the fact that you think animals lack logic and have less intelligence than a mentally ill. You clearly have done no research on the topic.
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"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
I doubt you even watched the videos then. So you think factory farms are infact where a bunch of decent animal loving people work? You think the animals are in fine condition and live full lives? Talk about fantasy land.
http://www.factoryfarming.com/pork.htm
http://www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/animals.html
http://www.idausa.org/facts/factoryfarmfacts.html - How factory farms work and began.
None of those links go to peta.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
I wish I could have a meaningful conversation with you Alex but we don't even live in the same reality.
I live in the real world and you live in some disney-esque world where lions have a lion language and cattle have a cattle language and oranges have an orange I.Q.
I must say I envy you in some ways. Your reality, where the animals talk to each other with complex languages and sit around thinking abstract thoughts, must be a much more magical place than my reality.
Strangely enough I remember a time when I did live in a reality closer to yours. When I was very, very young I remember watching a Christmas special on television in which they said that on midnight of Christmas eve the animals can talk. Of course I knew it wasn't so, but at that time, when I was very young, I lived in a reality close enough to yours so that I could almost believe it if I tried hard. So I snuck outside in the freezing wheather and sat with the dogs...watching my wrist-watch and waiting for midnight.
It's all a bit foggy and vague now but I do still remember the magical world I lived in when I was very young. Unfortunately....I grew up. And as I did I had to let go of all of those childish imaginings and fantasies. I wonder what it would be like to be an adult who never outgrew his early childhood? It seems a bit sad looking at it from the outside...but for you it must be a wonderful and magical thing.
If intelligence was a sign of who to kill and not kill , most of america would be free and open plains.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
no parrots cannot 'speak human'. they can mimic pretty much anything.
i can say mooo but i don't speak cow.
gtg the delivery from china hut is here, mmm this general tso's cat is some tasty stuff
Irony - Someone who makes such brazen claims as yourself bringing scientific basis into this argument - Laughable.
You were saying animals lack abstract thought and i'm saying they do have abstract thought again because science has proven it. I am bringing scientific basis into this discussion because its been proven....scientifically.
Sorry if I confused intelligence with abstract thought....kind of the samething though
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
no parrots cannot 'speak human'. they can mimic pretty much anything.
i can say mooo but i don't speak cow.
gtg the delivery from china hut is here, mmm this general tso's cat is some tasty stuff
When I say speak human I mean they can say a word a human might say regardless of language (english, russian, spanish...ect). They are all human languages. Little human babies and toddlers learn to speak english through mimicking their parents, just like a parrot may mimic a human. I have seen parrots having discussions with humans...usually not serious discussions but a discussion nontheless.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Prove it. Prove all of your claims - scientifically of course. Prove that animals posess an intelligent quotient greater than that of a mental deficient person, prove that animals posess the ability to reason.
This pitter-pattering back and forth is coming to no avail, so this can be solved quite simplistically.
Prove it. Prove all of your claims - scientifically of course. Prove that animals posess an intelligent quotient greater than that of a mental deficient person, prove that animals posess the ability to reason.
This pitter-pattering back and forth is coming to no avail, so this can be solved quite simplistically.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-10/apa-bct100901.php
http://www.courier-journal.com/foryourinfo/052703/052703.html
I now realize my mental retarded comparison was faulty. Obviously there are varying degrees of a mental illness. I was using Jason (mentally ill person I lived with) as my example. I don't think you have ever lived with a mentally ill person so I don't think you could really understand how they live. They basically need someone to take care of them for their entire life or else they die. They can't put clothes on, feed themselves, take a shower,...or anything else besides playing with their toys and when I say playing with toys they just bang toys together. On the otherhand we know that animals are very self sustaining, can take baths, can feed themselves. Wolves work together to take down prey that are way bigger than them alone (bears), that takes team work, communication, and logic.
And don't give me any BS about "well they had to learn it first"...well for you to do anything at all YOU had to learn it too! Obviously these links I brought you too are putting animals in a human environment and of course they are going to perform worse than humans, just like if you were to get abducted by aliens and they tried getting you to perform their wierd experiments to measure intelligence, you would of course do worse than aliens and the aliens would deem you as "not smart".
To everyone Do animals feel pain?
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American