The Old Days, The New Days

Asm0deus · August 2021

FrodoFragins said:

...snip.... they need to let some posters become mods.

....snip...

That would be a major disaster.

I am sorry but not one poster here doesn't ever get "excitable" at one time or another...every single one of us so this would be a terribad idea.

It would also lead to major arse kissing IMO as even without that incentive there some of that that goes around right now.

FrodoFragins · August 2021

Asm0deus said:

FrodoFragins said:

...snip.... they need to let some posters become mods.

....snip...

That would be a major disaster.

I am sorry but not one poster here doesn't ever get "excitable" at one time or another...every single one of us so this would be a terribad idea.

It would also lead to major arse kissing IMO as even without that incentive there some of that that goes around right now.

There are definitely some. And even so it would be a one strike and your out policy. They clearly need better coverage for at least the ad bots whose posts last hours sometimes.

AlBQuirky · August 2021

Sovrath said:

AlBQuirky said:

I had to laugh at your last line since more "right wingers" understand "left wingers" more readily than the opposite. I'm tired of the constant HATE that the left gets way with then crying "HATE SPEECH!" Does Trump trigger anyone here?

You see, it's stuff like this that perpetuates all this hate.

I'm sure both sides say the same thing.

My roommate, a good friend of mine, has very different life/political views than I do. I'm liberal and he's libertarian.

And we don't get into shouting matches, we don't go pointing fingers. Truth be told we just let the other have their views and be done with it.

But as I said in another post somewhere, there are the "extreme people" who just can't keep it in their pants and have to go out of their way to get in the face of other people who have different viewpoints.

It's the people who think that all liberals, conservatives, religious people, pick your group, all think the exact same way, all expect other people to see their way as the best that are kind of the problem.

Heck, I'm not religious and consider myself agnostic and I know of religious people who are just so good, so amazing that I'd be happy with an entire world of them and just me.

each side or each group is going to have a large number of decent people and people who would be fine with just living and let living.

We have to stop thinking of groups as cartoons, two-dimensional representations of ideas, and realize that every side has their story and that story and their beliefs work for them because that's where life brought them.

I think if people would really go back to the human decency part of the equation, the idea that community can be strong when it's supportive of its members, then we'd have a better time of it.

But people have to stop being completely "me" centric and be willing to understand why others have different ways of thinking and living.

Who starts the fights again? An answer to one person's "hate" may not be best served with more "hate", but when "discussions" cease to be, what is the answer? Violence?

Overall, I don't care one whit what anyone's politics are. I don't know them unless YOU (general you, not you specifically) tell what they are. That is usually shared by showing what you (general you, again) believe, many times littered by "hate", or at best an air of superiority.

I love democrats (leftists in America). I love their desire help others out and general acceptance of others. In the past 13 years (since Obama), that acceptance has been waning. I have 4 older sisters and an older brother who are all leftists. Our parents were staunch right wingers. One of my sisters and I have agreed that politics is not to be talked about. The other 3 sisters and my brother can have good, even great civil debates. The Internet takes away the realiztion for many that another human being is on the other side the screen. Face to face, I have much easier discussions because the leftists see me as human being, not an anonymous "Devil Incarnate."

That being said, I will not bring up politics. I will respond in kind to any discussion brought up. I try to hold back and many times write out a reply then erase it before sending (its quite therapeutic

). It's getting harder and harder to do these days when ALL social media is "lefty" infested and any disagreement is "attacked" like a swarm of piranhas smelling blood. It's not just one or two leftists, but tens of them that "bully" any dissenter. It matters not how one's reply is delivered.

I do 100% agree that society as a whole needs to stop being so "me centric", and remember to be decent human beings

AlBQuirky · August 2021

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:
I was wondering (and clearly I have too much time on my hands) if an alien race (yup here it goes) were to actually know of our existence and if I ended up in their hands, how I would explain our entertainment as a good amount of it is about violence.

Also, would they misunderstand (I think too many people believe that "aliens" would be like us but different shape not realizing that they might have an entirely different way of looking at EVERYTHING) and think that I really wanted to be put into these situations, so they would try to create an environment that would make me happy with giant killer spiders, zombies out to kill me, and anything else that would bring me the violence that I "apparently crave."

There was an episode of Star Trek that featured that plot.

The aliens found an astronaut who had a copy of a murder mystery set in a casino. They didn't know what to do with him so they created a world for him based on the novel. The plot of the book was placed on an infinite loop.

I guess what I'm saying is: You aren't was weird as I think you are.

I was reminded of The Fifth Element movie with Bruce Willis and Milla Jovovich. She plays an alien (Leelu) that learns about Earth history and cries with all the wars and hatred in all of our history. Bruce's character (Corbin Dallas) has to teach her about the good stuff, like love and other good things

Kyleran · August 2021

FrodoFragins said:

Asm0deus said:

FrodoFragins said:

...snip.... they need to let some posters become mods.

....snip...

That would be a major disaster.

I am sorry but not one poster here doesn't ever get "excitable" at one time or another...every single one of us so this would be a terribad idea.

It would also lead to major arse kissing IMO as even without that incentive there some of that that goes around right now.

There are definitely some. And even so it would be a one strike and your out policy. They clearly need better coverage for at least the ad bots whose posts last hours sometimes.

There's one of the original volunteer (?) mods still around, Vaross still drops the hammer on occasion.

Scot · August 2021

FrodoFragins said:

The main issue is that they don't seem to have the manpower to moderate at all. So if they want to avoid having to make commentless articles they need to let some posters become mods.

All I'll say is that I don't come here for discussions on politics or religion. And I check out the second someone brings up SJW's, wokeness or liberals. Like it or not, it's the right wingers that have been derailing the threads with politics. I get that they are angry, but take it to political forums.

The last thing we want is posters to become mods, who do you think will put their hands up to be one? Someone who takes a balanced approach or someone who is getting very outraged at what other posters are saying?

I think the old mods Kyleran mentioned come from a time when people did not feel that their views were the only views that could be allowed. Back in the day of IRC and forums we did not have this, then they invented FB and Twitter and now we all must conform to one "truth". Bearing in mind that each person has at least a slightly different version of what the truth is and many of us have vastly different versions, social media was always going to be a recipe for disaster.

Not referencing Frodo here, but we are getting rather political in some of these posts, some of you have come across as spoiling for a fight. Is that the right way to solve anything? Politeness does go a long way, not pretending I am as cool as a cucumber or anything, but it does help.

Scot · August 2021

tzervo said:

AlBQuirky said:. I try to hold back and many times write out a reply then erase it before sending (its quite therapeutic ).

I have to agree it is very therapeutic, not just on politics discussions (which I take absolutely no part on here) but also game related ones. It feels nice to be able to say: what's the point, shrug and do something else more productive when you hit a wall on the other side.

A bit like the way I do a political post and say that's it for this thread, you can get called out for that, people have responded to your post and you are "not engaging" or "running away" etc. But I find it works for me.

Po_gg · August 2021

AlBQuirky said:

I try to hold back and many times write out a reply then erase it before sending (its quite therapeutic ).

I do that a lot as well

AlBQuirky said:

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:
I was wondering (and clearly I have too much time on my hands) if an alien race (yup here it goes) were to actually know of our existence and if I ended up in their hands, how I would explain our entertainment as a good amount of it is about violence.

There was an episode of Star Trek that featured that plot.

I was reminded of The Fifth Element movie with Bruce Willis and Milla Jovovich.

We aren't necessarily worse than alien races (though the examples were good), even in Trek there was Q in TNG, or a much better example, the Gamesters of Triskellion from the TOS.

(it's about kidnapping the crew and throw them in an arena for amusement)

Sure, the episode is more known about one of the most iconic Kirk conquests:

Totally not "me too" compatible, but maybe could get Blizzard's seal of approval

Slapshot1188 · August 2021

Scot said:

FrodoFragins said:

The main issue is that they don't seem to have the manpower to moderate at all. So if they want to avoid having to make commentless articles they need to let some posters become mods.

All I'll say is that I don't come here for discussions on politics or religion. And I check out the second someone brings up SJW's, wokeness or liberals. Like it or not, it's the right wingers that have been derailing the threads with politics. I get that they are angry, but take it to political forums.

The last thing we want is posters to become mods, who do you think will put their hands up to be one? Someone who takes a balanced approach or someone who is getting very outraged at what other posters are saying?

I think the old mods Kyleran mentioned come from a time when people did not feel that their views were the only views that could be allowed. Back in the day of IRC and forums we did not have this, then they invented FB and Twitter and now we all must conform to one "truth". Bearing in mind that each person has at least a slightly different version of what the truth is and many of us have vastly different versions, social media was always going to be a recipe for disaster.

Not referencing Frodo here, but we are getting rather political in some of these posts, some of you have come across as spoiling for a fight. Is that the right way to solve anything? Politeness does go a long way, not pretending I am as cool as a cucumber or anything, but it does help.

I’d volunteer to be a mod. You know my philosophy... let people speak and use ignore. Just ban the bots ?

Guess that’s why I’m not a mod.

Scot · August 2021

Slapshot1188 said:

Scot said:

FrodoFragins said:

The main issue is that they don't seem to have the manpower to moderate at all. So if they want to avoid having to make commentless articles they need to let some posters become mods.

All I'll say is that I don't come here for discussions on politics or religion. And I check out the second someone brings up SJW's, wokeness or liberals. Like it or not, it's the right wingers that have been derailing the threads with politics. I get that they are angry, but take it to political forums.

The last thing we want is posters to become mods, who do you think will put their hands up to be one? Someone who takes a balanced approach or someone who is getting very outraged at what other posters are saying?

I think the old mods Kyleran mentioned come from a time when people did not feel that their views were the only views that could be allowed. Back in the day of IRC and forums we did not have this, then they invented FB and Twitter and now we all must conform to one "truth". Bearing in mind that each person has at least a slightly different version of what the truth is and many of us have vastly different versions, social media was always going to be a recipe for disaster.

Not referencing Frodo here, but we are getting rather political in some of these posts, some of you have come across as spoiling for a fight. Is that the right way to solve anything? Politeness does go a long way, not pretending I am as cool as a cucumber or anything, but it does help.

I’d volunteer to be a mod. You know my philosophy... let people speak and use ignore. Just ban the bots ?

Guess that’s why I’m not a mod.

I think if you and me became mods posters would immediately be asking why we are not banning xyz. The outrage would spread to our own lack of affirmative action. "No more stay calm Scot, ban 'erm!"

[Deleted User] · August 2021

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laserit · August 2021

Scot said:

MikeB said:

Iselin said:
There's a crowd here that either doesn't have a normal outlet to discuss their far right politics or they do and still want to constantly inject it into topics here because... I really don't know... so I'll just go with "reasons."

Frankly IMO, It's about time those articles got locked because a large portion of the crowd here don't deserve the opportunity to spew their hateful bile every fucking day on every fucking thread.

We're all tired of it, too. And we're going to be unceremoniously ejecting these people from the forums. If your aim is to be posting "woke" this or "SJW" that here (or worse) then you're gonna have a bad time. Let me state in no uncertain terms that these people are not at all welcome on our forums. I'm sure you've seen some regulars around here that may have previously skirted the line issued bans over the last week or two. Those bans are permanent.

If reading this has you worried, well, you probably should be. This isn't a slippery slope to censorship or anything. We don't care if you hate or love X or Y game, developer, or what have you. This isn't even about your garden variety trolling, lapses of judgment we all have posting on forums from time to time, or even just skeptical or cynical views some people have on all sorts of topics. It's about the inability for some people to show basic human decency and empathy. We simply have no room for those people here. I don't think I can be any more clear on this.

As for the broader issue, feel free to create your own threads on the Blizzard topics, but editorial doesn't want those comments opened given the tenor of the forums and until that changes, certain articles will have their comments disabled at their discretion. We're absolutely open to revisiting this in the future if things change around here.

I've been here for 10+ years. You all know me and the space I've tried to give you over the years, but this is an issue that we have to get under control. The stuff we're seeing, particularly over the last few years, is disgusting both to me and to everyone who works here and we're just done with it.

It is good to have some feedback Mike as to why this change has happened, the only thing that concerns me about what you have said is should not posters have been given a temporary ban before they got a permanent one, but then maybe they have? I do have a "can we bring them round" attitude but I appreciate it is not me having to wade though the detritus of posts we sometimes get. I say sometimes, I think on the whole we have a good community.

It is fair that we can open our own open threads on the issue, I am sure some posters will run with that. The topics with no comments usually do not interest me enough to do that, though I will comment myself.

Finally we have known you a long time, that does engender trust and I am sure you are acting in good faith. Thanks for putting up with us all these years.

The posters Mike is talking about probably have had numerous temporary bans, just my guess.

2 sided conversations are by far the best kind, sucks when we're too uncivil to have them.

laserit · August 2021

Wargfoot said:

Kyleran said:
I think the optimal response would be to just report them and move on, no need to challenge the other side with an opposing viewpoint, especially if off topic or political in nature.

Do understand the other side sees their viewpoint as the more "rational" one.

Sometimes it helps to try and understand where they are coming from, who knows, you might even find yourself in agreement with them one day.

I highly recommend the use of the 'ignore' feature.

The button lives inside my head, no need for one on the forum

AlBQuirky · August 2021

tzervo said:

Scot said:
A bit like the way I do a political post and say that's it for this thread, you can get called out for that, people have responded to your post and you are "not engaging" or "running away" etc. But I find it works for me.

The thing is, when I do that I have already decided that the other side is just not worth it, so I don't really care how they will interpret not responding either.

Much like "choosing your fights."

"Is this worth it", is usually the question I ask myself. It's getting harder and harder for me to do lately

AlBQuirky · August 2021

Wargfoot said:

Theocritus said:

"I understand that the term "SJW" annoys you"

I dont even know what the term means and I dont think I want to know...Often ignorance is bliss.

Social Justice Warrior

That sounds like a good thing (and being for social justice is a good thing) but usually it is used in a derogatory sense to paint someone as an overly emotional bug-eyed virtue signaling tit. Think: Someone with no life experience, purple hair, sipping on a $7 latte telling you how you should live your life. Antonym: Right wing troll.

After further thought, I wanted to weigh in, too.

"SJW(arrior)" is a person that wants to FIGHT/ BULLY/BROWBEAT/KILL for social justice.

"SJA(dvocate)" is a social advocate who prefers to talk and discuss the ways social justice may come be achieved.

If the shoe fits, wear it proudly.

Iselin · August 2021

I prefer this much more accurate definition descriptive of how it's actually used:

"Social Justice Warrior" (abbreviated "SJW") is a derogatory term used to refer to liberals, progressives, feminists, and supporters of political correctness.

The term is an appropriated one, generally used by the right wing as a negative snarl word, despite originally having positive connotations.

It is commonly used by far right reactionaries as a toxic ad hominem which almost certainly raises a red flag that a pointless nonconstructive discussion will follow.

It has recently become a common handwave — an easy way to dismiss any liberally framed challenge.

In other words, the easiest way to deal with a progressive political critique is to huff and puff and call you a SJW. No actual response or explanation is required."

Edit: and just for the sake of completeness:

"Woke as a political term refers to having a perceived awareness of issues concerning social justice and racial justice.

It is derived from the African American Vernacular English expression "stay woke", whose grammatical aspect refers to a continuing awareness of these issues.

Its widespread use since 2014 is a result of the Black Lives Matter movement. The alt-right and reactionaries use the term "woke" as an anti-progressive snarl word against an individual or a corporation promoting a socially progressive message."

[Deleted User] · August 2021

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Asm0deus · August 2021

We need to stop using such derogatory terms really though, these labels are the problem themselves.

We need to start seeing each person as they are, both good AND bad, instead of as the label we would like to stick them in.

There are sjw's or woke people who are honest and truly wish society to evolve and become more open and accepting but there are many that hide behind those labels while spewing their misandrist hate and hypocrisy.

For example lets take body shaming...

....there's nothing wrong with a woman that's chubby or fat even and its great people want to fight against this and give young girls more realistic ideals than some 100 pound 6 foot model.

HOWEVER in your fight against this if you start body shaming women who are naturally thin and fit conventional beauty norms, if you start trying to body shame women that feel sexy and like to show it or try to shame women that like to work out cause it makes them feel good then you are just as bad as the other side cause they shouldn't be shamed anymore than the fat girls should be.

You cant fight hate with hate...that just breeds more hate and that's what these terms/labels are doing and sadly more and more hate is infiltrating the sjw and woke camps so to speak.

laserit · August 2021

tzervo said:

Wargfoot said:

For get all the social/political stuff.
We need a derogatory word for people who will cheer yet another theme park MMORPG.

I think it is okay for us to hate those guys, right?

Will be hard to decide who to use that term on, seeing as people cannot agree what is themepark, sandbox and sandpark.

I say we find a derogatory word for those arguing over those definitions instead.

I always thought those people were called Nerds

Kyleran · August 2021

Asm0deus said:

We need to stop using such derogatory terms really though, these labels are the problem themselves.

We need to start seeing each person as they are, both good AND bad, instead of as the label we would like to stick them in.

There are sjw's or woke people who are honest and truly wish society to evolve and become more open and accepting but there are many that hide behind those labels while spewing their misandrist hate and hypocrisy.

For example lets take body shaming...

....there's nothing wrong with a woman that's chubby or fat even and its great people want to fight against this and give young girls more realistic ideals than some 100 pound 6 foot model.

HOWEVER in your fight against this if you start body shaming women who are naturally thin and fit conventional beauty norms, if you start trying to body shame women that feel sexy and like to show it or try to shame women that like to work out cause it makes them feel good then you are just as bad as the other side cause they shouldn't be shamed anymore than the fat girls should be.

You cant fight hate with hate...that just breeds more hate and that's what these terms/labels are doing and sadly more and more hate is infiltrating the sjw and woke camps so to speak.

I'm puzzled, you opened saying derogatory labels are bad, mkay then closed saying hate is increasingly infiltrating the "sjw" and "woke" camps.

You really can't help yourself, you have this need to paint those whose opinions you disagree with as haters and should reflect on why this is so.

Slapshot1188 · August 2021

Kyleran said:

You really can't help yourself, you have this need to paint those whose opinions you disagree with as haters and should reflect on why this is so.

It's everywhere. We have been bombarded by this stuff for decades. With higher and higher intensity levels. We are now trained to put people into camps or tribes. And it's Us against Them. I mean, we even turned a vaccine into an Us vs Them situation... I dunno how this ever changes at this point. Until we have a real THEM to worry about. Western society has been coddled for decades with no real existential threats, so we find more and more ways to divide ourselves.

This is depressing. Can we get back to bashing/white knighting games?

Asm0deus · August 2021

Kyleran said:

Asm0deus said:

We need to stop using such derogatory terms really though, these labels are the problem themselves.

We need to start seeing each person as they are, both good AND bad, instead of as the label we would like to stick them in.

There are sjw's or woke people who are honest and truly wish society to evolve and become more open and accepting but there are many that hide behind those labels while spewing their misandrist hate and hypocrisy.

For example lets take body shaming...

....there's nothing wrong with a woman that's chubby or fat even and its great people want to fight against this and give young girls more realistic ideals than some 100 pound 6 foot model.

HOWEVER in your fight against this if you start body shaming women who are naturally thin and fit conventional beauty norms, if you start trying to body shame women that feel sexy and like to show it or try to shame women that like to work out cause it makes them feel good then you are just as bad as the other side cause they shouldn't be shamed anymore than the fat girls should be.

You cant fight hate with hate...that just breeds more hate and that's what these terms/labels are doing and sadly more and more hate is infiltrating the sjw and woke camps so to speak.

I'm puzzled, you opened saying derogatory labels are bad, mkay then closed saying hate is increasingly infiltrating the "sjw" and "woke" camps.

You really can't help yourself, you have this need to paint those whose opinions you disagree with as haters and should reflect on why this is so.

Do you not see my point then is it not obvious or did it just go over your head?

If we didn't use these term as I showed we wouldn't have camps instead we would have people that are for xyz and those against xyz and those that say they are for xyz while being hypocrites etc etc.

If the mods here said no more using the terms "woke, sjw, boomer, entitled" etc etc because they consider them derogatory words I would stop using them here but until we can agree that they are such it going to be near impossible to stop their use.

In this instance I am using them to make a point, but I generally try hard not to use these term even though we are bombarded with them daily almost.

Also are yo going to sit there and tell me you never swear ever or use derogatory terms?...lol

You of all people Kyle have a urge to paint others and you kind of show it daily here on mmorpg as you proved with this last post of yours...you didn't contribute anything of value to the discussion except to try and sneer down on someone trying to explain something from your high pedestal acting all confused...lol

All because I forgot to put the " " around the words... but perhaps your just purposely ignoring the "so to speak" qualifier at the end there cause.... reasons.

I will tell you a secret kyle your child like need to play on people words to try and turn it around doesn't make or show you as clever, it just shows you being immature and childish maybe you should try and understand what the other person was trying to get across. Communication isn't suppose to be a competitive one upping exercise.

If you are simply trying to say well if these words are bad you should avoid using them yourself well then I agree but then it would be hard to discuss these words if I can't use them to show or make a point about them wouldn't it.

Kyleran · August 2021

Asm0deus said:

Kyleran said:

Asm0deus said:

We need to stop using such derogatory terms really though, these labels are the problem themselves.

We need to start seeing each person as they are, both good AND bad, instead of as the label we would like to stick them in.

There are sjw's or woke people who are honest and truly wish society to evolve and become more open and accepting but there are many that hide behind those labels while spewing their misandrist hate and hypocrisy.

For example lets take body shaming...

....there's nothing wrong with a woman that's chubby or fat even and its great people want to fight against this and give young girls more realistic ideals than some 100 pound 6 foot model.

HOWEVER in your fight against this if you start body shaming women who are naturally thin and fit conventional beauty norms, if you start trying to body shame women that feel sexy and like to show it or try to shame women that like to work out cause it makes them feel good then you are just as bad as the other side cause they shouldn't be shamed anymore than the fat girls should be.

You cant fight hate with hate...that just breeds more hate and that's what these terms/labels are doing and sadly more and more hate is infiltrating the sjw and woke camps so to speak.

I'm puzzled, you opened saying derogatory labels are bad, mkay then closed saying hate is increasingly infiltrating the "sjw" and "woke" camps.

You really can't help yourself, you have this need to paint those whose opinions you disagree with as haters and should reflect on why this is so.

Do you not see my point then is it not obvious or did it just go over your head?

If we didn't use these term as I showed we wouldn't have camps instead we would have people that are for xyz and those against xyz and those that say they are for xyz while being hypocrits etc etc.

If the mods here sai no more using the terms "woke, sjw, boomer, entitled" etc etc because they consider them derogatory words I would stop using them here but until we can agree that they are such it going to be near impossible to stop there use.

In this instance i am using them to make a point, but I generally try hard not to use these term even though we are bombarded with them daily almost.

Also are yo going to sit there and tell me you never swear ever or use derogatory terms?...lol

You of all people Kyle have a urge to paint others and you kind of show it dailly here on mmorpg as you proved with this last post of yours...you didn't contribute anything of value to the discussion except to try and sneer down on someone trying to explain something from your high pedestal acting all confused...lol

All because I forgot to put the " " around the words... but perhaps your just purposely ignoring the "so to speak" qualifier at the end there cause reason.

I'm made of a little sterner stuff, words don't really wound me but yes, I do wield them to suit my purpose, even if some don't recognize what that might be.

For instance, I'm not at all confused about your intent, it amuses me to point it out is all.

Asm0deus · August 2021

Kyleran said:

...snip....
I'm made of a little sterner stuff, words don't really wound me but yes, I do wield them to suit my purpose, even if some don't recognize what that might be.

For instance, I'm not at all confused about your intent, it amuses me to point it out is all.

Glad you can admit you're not confused about my meaning and have owned up to posting just to be a funny smart arse with nothing of worth to contribute to the discussion except comic relief perhaps.

Perhaps I just need to accept your need of such posting to make yourself feel made of such stern stuff!

Kyleran · August 2021

Asm0deus said:

Kyleran said:

...snip....
I'm made of a little sterner stuff, words don't really wound me but yes, I do wield them to suit my purpose, even if some don't recognize what that might be.

For instance, I'm not at all confused about your intent, it amuses me to point it out is all.

Glad you can admit you're not confused about my meaning and have owned up to posting just to be a funny smart arse with nothing of worth to contribute to the discussion except comic relief perhaps.

Perhaps I just need to accept your need of such posting to make yourself feel made of such stern stuff!

I mock... because I can.

Well, and others make it so easy...

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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The Old Days, The New Days

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV