Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Mikes123 [quote] I for one do not kill raid bosses for items. I farm items to kill raid bosses, and that is the mentality that keeps players playing for such a ,long time. They don't see their fellow guildmates as tools to achieve personal and near sighted goals. We see the guild itself as the next step in the game. Building a guild, managing it's players, Farming items to make the guild as a whole stronger to beat new bosses and compete with other guilds. It's not a personal affair, but a community affair. [/quote]
if that is true, why do we need item rewards with ridicolously inflated stats at all? wouldn t the challenge itself and maybe rewards like titles or visually superior armor (as opposed to better stats) be a better way to keep the game fair for everyone, regardless wether they prefer 5mans, raids or pvp? thinking of it, isn t that exactly what Blizzard promised before release but failed to deliver ?
just to caveat to this. if you pre-ordered or bought wow early on (like the first 9 months of the game BEFORE there were any battlegrounds); then, read the box and your book that came with it. it talks about the wonderful battlegrounds and pvp that are a part of the game and which was a major selling point in my pre-ordering.
yet there were no battlegrounds until like 9 months after release into retail...
that speaks worlds about blizzard and wow.
raids are dev's way of 1- being lazy with end game and 2- being uncreative with end game.
what in wow stimulates a player economy? not crafts, there's nothing you can craft that can compete with drops end game. you lose nothing when you die. items don't decay do they? your "player economy" is all from drops.
they/blizz lament that no one does outdoor pvp. why should you? they buffed up town guards to get a bazillion extras real quick. town guards never dropped loot worth much anything, nor did random enemy npcs.
no player housing. no outposts which can be taken and held by horde or alliance. there's just no reason to attack any enemy towns ever.
think about the "community" that would be built (throughout an entire faction) by there being objectives to take? if each zone has a dozen outposts that either side could claim, but only a single guild can claim any one objective.... there's something to build a community around.
not from the (and i speak from about 9 years of MMO gaming experience most of which was as a part of a guild or clan) "hey, check the calendar for when this 8 hour borefest will start. stock up on whatever pots you'll need. make sure you bring plenty of ammo if you use it. we should get 4-6 good items tonight, so if you haven't gotten anything lately, you should get a drop tonight." that's not community. that's a group of people, like the previous poster stated, gearing up to fight the next big bad in yet another lengthy farmable borefest.
this still answers why raids don't foster any worthwhile community. but a myriad of other things can (and do in other games) foster a *realer* sense of community.
1 player economy 2 objectives ingame which provide tangible benefits to players (i.e. controlling outposts/towns)
a number of games have successfully implemented crafting systems (possibly carried out by npc henchmen instead of players), where the best items ingame are craftable, do decay and you could lose them if you die and are looted.
if it's farmable, it's easy. by definition farmable has to be easy, otherwise how are you farming it? you farm every raid area/instance.
thus it appeals to the lowest common denominator and ceases to actually be a challenge and instead is simply a timesink. you spend your time and get rewarded with nicer items for being bored for the past X amount of hours.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well, it's time to boil all of these great walls of text down to the core. Mike believes that "not raiding" and "not participating in the community" are equivalent, that if you don't raid you're not participating in the community. We've seen this numerous times, where I'll post something about not wanting to raid and he'll respond with something mentioning the 'fact' that I don't want to participate in the community. It's consistent throughout his posts, I'd quote some but frankly I think most people are getting tired of big walls of quoted text, go back to my last post and there are a couple quoted there. This means that his initial post really means something like 'Raids are the best place to get loot in wow because Blizzard wants to encourage community, and I have defined participating in the community to be equivalent to participating in raids'
To make it even more difficult, Mike insists constantly that he's only talking about whether raids build community, and instead of discussing his frequent assertion that "doesn't want to raid" equals "doesn't want to participate in the community", he will try to sidetrack the discussion by demanding to know things like "Do raids build community" and "Why do you think raids exist". He also shares the typical raider blind spot about non-raid content, where he believes the game is either "PVE raids" or "solo and PuG content" (again, there are numerous quotes of this, but we're all tired of quotes, just search for PuG), and goes on about how one must either play the game for raids or be treating it as if it were solitare.
A lot of the confusion could be related the fact that he likes to use his his own definitions of words (without any explanation or acknowledgement that they're nonstandard) - from what he was saying, it's possible that he would just conser a guild group that had run instances together many times to be a PuG if they didn't schedule their particular instance run in advance. His definition of community and the fact that he believes non-raid content can't foster it combine to mean that by his definition, wow has no community at all from 1-59 even though that's when he says his guild met up and acquired most of its members. And how can you expect any kind of sensible conversation when someome seriously makes comments like: "I'm not a "raider", but according to you, because I raid, I'm a "raider". You're predjudiced."
Another rather interesting point is that despite all of his talk about how raiding builds community, from what he's said about the WOW community he doesn't actually like the community that raiding has built. For example, he believes that any guild that needs a complex accounting system like DKP is not a good guild to be in - even though the vast majority of guilds that are raiding use some DKP system for allocating loot. When I point out the kinds of things that anyone looking to raiding has seen, he says simply that I'm looking at the wrong guilds and recommends that I start my own. He says I'm some terribly antisocial guy, yet his advice to me is that I should not absolutely not socially interact with the vast majority of people running raid content.
That's really the meat of the discussion, and I'm while I'm deliberately avoiding the walls of text (and especially the walls of quotes), I've got one exception. This one exchange really sums up what the debate is like. Mike will probably claim that I'm dropping context over and over, but he won't be able to show what context I allegedly dropped, and if you're really interested (and not just reading as a dare to see how much more I write on this thread) you can scroll back up yourself and see if there's anything relevant that I didn't quote.
Back a ways:
(Mike) And I responded with the overarching theme of my post...that if you're APPLYING to guilds JUST so you can get uber loot, you're still not really being social. You're just using people...like you would an NPC in a single person game.
(Me) This quote really speaks for itelf. Remember that I haven't talked about applying to guilds or reasons for applying to one at all, it just makes it more absurd.
And
(Mike) I dunno...maybe because you were whining about how hard they were to get into? So...wait...you haven't even bothered trying to get into one, and you've already given up, because none of them will want you? Interesting.
When did I say anything about how hard or easy raid guilds are to get into? I posted a quote from a guild's application page to back up my estimate of the time required for raiding. At no point did I say anything it being difficult to get into one, much less complain about it. And your chain of random ideas is just plain amusing.
OK, so the stage is set and Mike responds in the next post with:"Oh really?" and two quotes from me (I've taken out where one was double quoted and added bold to emphasize what I'm going to reference):
(Me) I'll tell you what, point me to the websites of 5 guilds in WOW that can finish MC in 4 hours or less and are interested in acquiring or even retaining members who raid for a total of 4 hours per week spread out over 2 or more days. Surely if this is such a viable playstyle you can find way less than 1 guild per server where it would be possible to do.
(Me)I've seen a lot of things like http://www.eternal-guild.com/?p=app "We raid Pacific Standard Time. We raid weekday evening's 5pm/pst - Midnight depending. We generally have a morning raid on Saturdays, no earlier than 9am. If you cannot raid with us during these times DO NOT APPLY." when looking at raiding guilds and not anything about 4 hours spread over 2 days. Those pages are actual facts; people actually doing raid content don't seem to agree with your belief that raids in WOW take only 4 hours and that not even in one day. Yet somehow, I'm the one making stuff up.
Both from your post made 5/20 at 2:29 pm. And unlike you, I threw the ENTIRE paragraphs in there, so as not to try to take stuff out of context. If you know how difficult it is to find "raiding" guilds, then obviously, you've tried to do it. Unless, of course, you just made all that up?
Now, if you're still reading along, look at the two paragraphs from me that he quoted. I don't see anywhere where I said it was difficult to find raiding guilds in general, just that it's difficult to find a certain specific subset of raidnig guilds, those that are interested in having members (whether new or old, so nothing to do with getting in) who raid on the schedule he said was appropriate for WOW raids. "It's difficult to find raid guilds that do this specific thing" is a very different thing from "It's difficult to find raid guilds".
I'd certainly never claim that it's hard to find WOW raiding guilds since I can turn up dozens of them without much effort, I even offered to find one with a raiding schedule that fits my time but not his for each one he found fitting his. Go to the official boards, go to realm forums, find a list of guilds on the server (if there's not one stickied, go to another realm), click homepage links, and you'll find more raiding guilds than you know what to do with.
I know I know...you're going to respond something like "Yeah, well, just because I know how hard it is to get into a raid guild, doesn't mean I've ever actually TRIED to get into one!"
Again I'll point out that nothing in the material he quoted talks about it being hard to get into a raid guild. And even if it did, at no point in the discussion have I said that I have never "TRIED" to get into a raid guild, I've only denied that I have any desire to do get into one in the present and that I wasn't trying to get into the one who's app page I quoted as an example of raid schedules.
(For anyone wondering, I "tried" to get into one by knowing some of their members, being invited, filling out their app, and accepting the /ginvite the next day, then /gquit several weeks later after experiencing the joys of raiding firsthand. Amusingly in light of his accusation of me only being in it for the loot, I left a couple of days before my 'trial period' was up and I could actually collect DKP loot, if I was really in it for the purple pixels I could have gone on one more MC run and spent myself negative before leaving.)
(snipped some irrelevant stuff)
So, pointing out how difficult it is to get into a raid guild isn't complaining about how difficult it is to get into a raid guild. You know what? How difficult it is or is not is irrelevent. I don't care. You say things lile "raids guilds are hard to get into" and then follow it up with "I've never tried to get into a raid guild." You're right...it makes it impossible to argue with you, because you can sprout off anything you'd like, and then when it starts to work against you, deny it has anything to do with you.
Third time's the charm, again there is zilch in the material he quoted (or indeed, in any of what I wrote) about it being difficult to get into a raid guild - yet for no reason I can fathom, he keeps saying that I did. He even puts it into quotes like he's quoting something I've said, but anyone can do a text search and see that I didn't. Same thing with the alleged quote about "I've never tried to get into a raid guild" - it's something that I just plain never said, not a quote or paraphrase of something I've said. The closest thing I've said is that I'm not trying (note present tense) to get into a raid guild and that I have no desire (again, present tense) to get into one, but there's a big difference between now and never.
Just bear this exchange in mind if you try to have a serious discussion with him. He has no problem quoting two full paragraphs of me not talking about it being hard to get into a raid guild as proof that you were talking about it being hard to get into a raid guild! And just to show how surreal the conversaion is, he accuses me of sprouting stuff off then denying it. Expect the same thing if you try to seriously converse with him.
Originally posted by Bladin NOBODY who wants group or solo content with equal rewards, doesn't want raids to be a part of the game.
Speak for yourself. Personally, I'd strongly prefer that raids not be in any game at all, though I'm willing to play a game with raids as long as I can completely ignore them.
They are all for raids being the fastest way to obtain gear, but they want a way that they can become equals without raiding.Lets say this is the time chart for how long it took to obtain the gear.(fake numbers, just a example)Raid tier 3=1000 hoursGroup/solo tier 3=1500 hoursPvP tier 3=...they said they are working on a skill based system for ranks or something so ionno in the future, but it should take about 1250ish hours.
Again, speak for yourself. I am completely opposed to raiding being at all faster or in any other way a better method of obtaining gear than other methods. Raiding is a blight on MMORPGs, though I'm willing to ignore it's pollution of a game as long as there's nothing trying to force me to do it. If raiders get an advantage over nonraiders then the publishers get $0.00 from me, plain and simple.
*sigh* Here we go again. More mis-statements, mis-quotes, and (in at least one case) a flat out friggen LIE.
Originally posted by Pantastic
Well, it's time to boil all of these great walls of text down to the core. Mike believes that "not raiding" and "not participating in the community" are equivalent,
Actually, the root of what I said is "only participating in solo and PuG content is not participating in the community." You tried make the point that participating with PuG's IS participating in the community. When I pointed out why it really wasn't, you suprisingly never even acknowledged any of the points made there.
You do that a lot.
that if you don't raid you're not participating in the community. We've seen this numerous times, where I'll post something about not wanting to raid and he'll respond with something mentioning the 'fact' that I don't want to participate in the community.
See above.
It's consistent throughout his posts, I'd quote some but frankly I think most people are getting tired of big walls of quoted text,
I sure know I am.
go back to my last post and there are a couple quoted there.
Don't you mean "misquoted" and "taken out of context"?
This means that his initial post really means something like 'Raids are the best place to get loot in wow because Blizzard wants to encourage community,
Actually, raids are the ONLY way in WoW to encourage community at the guild level in WOW. There are no other mechanics currently in place to do it. PvP COULD have done it, but the devs dropped the ball on it.
Way to COMPLETELY twist the OP into saying what you really WANT it to say, though. Completely without foundation, too. But, whatever. You hate raiding.
and I have defined participating in the community to be equivalent to participating in raids'
Other that PuG's or solo content? The funny thing is, you never explained how you DO participate in the community.
To make it even more difficult, Mike insists constantly that he's only talking about whether raids build community, and instead of discussing his frequent assertion that "doesn't want to raid" equals "doesn't want to participate in the community", he will try to sidetrack the discussion by demanding to know things like "Do raids build community" and "Why do you think raids exist".
So in other words, in my OP, I say "Raids build community". In post after post, you REFUSE to even acknowledge the question, so I keep asking it again. So, by asking the SAME question, over and over and over and over again, I'm trying to "sidetrack" the discussion?
If anybody's done ANYTHING to sidetrack the discussion, it's you.
He also shares the typical raider blind spot about non-raid content, where he believes the game is either "PVE raids" or "solo and PuG content" (again, there are numerous quotes of this, but we're all tired of quotes, just search for PuG),
No, because you personally find the idea of scheduling time for a game ludicrous, for you, the only things you have are solo and PUG content.
and goes on about how one must either play the game for raids or be treating it as if it were solitare.
See above.
A lot of the confusion could be related the fact that he likes to use his his own definitions of words (without any explanation or acknowledgement that they're nonstandard) - from what he was saying, it's possible that he would just conser a guild group that had run instances together many times to be a PuG if they didn't schedule their particular instance run in advance.
Wow. Wow. Wow wow wow. This is COMPLETELY made up. Complete and total bollocks. You're not even trying anymore to make your lies even CLOSE to reasonable.
His definition of community and the fact that he believes non-raid content can't foster
No, people like YOU can't foster it.
it combine to mean that by his definition, wow has no community at all from 1-59 even though that's when he says his guild met up and acquired most of its members.
Riiiiiight. You know, nothing you're babbling now has any kind of basis on anything I've said. Now you're just being angry.
And how can you expect any kind of sensible conversation when someome seriously makes comments like: "I'm not a "raider", but according to you, because I raid, I'm a "raider". You're predjudiced."
Uh, its a valid statement. You were the one sprouting off crap about how I like to playt "word games", when I made the distinction between a raiding guild and a guild that raids.
Another rather interesting point is that despite all of his talk about how raiding builds community, from what he's said about the WOW community he doesn't actually like the community that raiding has built.
Really? This ought to be interesting.
For example, he believes that any guild that needs a complex accounting system like DKP is not a good guild to be in
Oh....my.....GOD. No, YOU believe that any guild that needs this system sucks. I merely pointed out to you that you have alternatives to joining a guild like this. Now you're so confused, you're attacking your own posts.
- even though the vast majority of guilds that are raiding use some DKP system for allocating loot.
Heh. You're funny.
When I point out the kinds of things that anyone looking to raiding has seen,
But according to you, you hate raiding, never wanted to raid, and never even tryed to join a raiding guild. How the HELL would you know what "anyong looking to raiding has seen"? Or were those statements the same load of crap you're dumping now?
he says simply that I'm looking at the wrong guilds and recommends that I start my own.
If you hate the people you play with and hate the system you play under, than you should find a way to play the way you want to play, because ultimately you're doing these things for fun. Dear God, what a kooky friggen concept!
He says I'm some terribly antisocial guy,
Nope, but I'm starting to think you are now.
yet his advice to me is that I should not absolutely not socially interact with the vast majority of people running raid content.
Do you even know which side of which issue you're on anymore?
That's really the meat of the discussion,
In your sad, twisted little mind, I guess it is.
and I'm while I'm deliberately avoiding the walls of text (and especially the walls of quotes), I've got one exception. This one exchange really sums up what the debate is like. Mike will probably claim that I'm dropping context over and over, but he won't be able to show what context I allegedly dropped, and if you're really interested (and not just reading as a dare to see how much more I write on this thread) you can scroll back up yourself and see if there's anything relevant that I didn't quote.
Back a ways:
(Mike) And I responded with the overarching theme of my post...that if you're APPLYING to guilds JUST so you can get uber loot, you're still not really being social. You're just using people...like you would an NPC in a single person game.
(Me) This quote really speaks for itelf. Remember that I haven't talked about applying to guilds or reasons for applying to one at all, it just makes it more absurd.
And
(Mike) I dunno...maybe because you were whining about how hard they were to get into? So...wait...you haven't even bothered trying to get into one, and you've already given up, because none of them will want you? Interesting.
When did I say anything about how hard or easy raid guilds are to get into? I posted a quote from a guild's application page to back up my estimate of the time required for raiding. At no point did I say anything it being difficult to get into one, much less complain about it. And your chain of random ideas is just plain amusing.
OK, so the stage is set and Mike responds in the next post with:"Oh really?" and two quotes from me (I've taken out where one was double quoted and added bold to emphasize what I'm going to reference):
(Me) I'll tell you what, point me to the websites of 5 guilds in WOW that can finish MC in 4 hours or less and are interested in acquiring or even retaining members who raid for a total of 4 hours per week spread out over 2 or more days. Surely if this is such a viable playstyle you can find way less than 1 guild per server where it would be possible to do.
(Me)I've seen a lot of things like http://www.eternal-guild.com/?p=app "We raid Pacific Standard Time. We raid weekday evening's 5pm/pst - Midnight depending. We generally have a morning raid on Saturdays, no earlier than 9am. If you cannot raid with us during these times DO NOT APPLY." when looking at raiding guilds and not anything about 4 hours spread over 2 days. Those pages are actual facts; people actually doing raid content don't seem to agree with your belief that raids in WOW take only 4 hours and that not even in one day. Yet somehow, I'm the one making stuff up.
Both from your post made 5/20 at 2:29 pm. And unlike you, I threw the ENTIRE paragraphs in there, so as not to try to take stuff out of context. If you know how difficult it is to find "raiding" guilds, then obviously, you've tried to do it. Unless, of course, you just made all that up?
Now, if you're still reading along, look at the two paragraphs from me that he quoted. I don't see anywhere where I said it was difficult to find raiding guilds in general, just that it's difficult to find a certain specific subset of raidnig guilds,
Wow. You're working REAL hard to recover from this one, aren't you? lol
When you say "point me to the websites of 5 guilds in WOW that can finish MC in 4 hours or lessand are interested in acquiring or even retaining members who raid for a total of 4 hours per week spread out over 2 or more days. Surely if this is such a viable playstyle you can find way less than 1 guild per server where it would be possible to do", you're complaining.
those that are interested in having members (whether new or old, so nothing to do with getting in) who raid on the schedule he said was appropriate for WOW raids.
Heh. You're all hung up on the whole raiding schedule thing. I find that amusing.
The guilds that do it are out there. They're not going to come up and ask you to join. You're going to have to ask around. AND, since most of those guilds are like mine (we don't take applications, we only grab people we like), you're actually going to have to get to know them before you get in.
"It's difficult to find raid guilds that do this specific thing" is a very different thing from "It's difficult to find raid guilds".
Whatever. Keep backpedelling. I find it funny. And you know why I find it especially funny? Because YOU were the one accusing ME of playing word games! You're doing it far better than I am right now. Carry on.
I'd certainly never claim that it's hard to find WOW raiding guilds since I can turn up dozens of them without much effort,
Not one that suits your playstyle, which was the root of that whole exchange.
I even offered to find one with a raiding schedule that fits my time
WHERE?!?!?!?!?! Thats a bald faced LIE.
but not his for each one he found fitting his.
Huh?
Go to the official boards, go to realm forums, find a list of guilds on the server (if there's not one stickied, go to another realm), click homepage links, and you'll find more raiding guilds than you know what to do with.
You know, you didn't do a very good job of backpedelling. "There's huge lists of guilds to join!" That's weak dude. Weak.
I know I know...you're going to respond something like "Yeah, well, just because I know how hard it is to get into a raid guild, doesn't mean I've ever actually TRIED to get into one!"
Again I'll point out that nothing in the material he quoted talks about it being hard to get into a raid guild.
LOL! I KNEW IT! Do I not have your argument style down pat or what?
And even if it did, at no point in the discussion have I said that I have never "TRIED" to get into a raid guild,
See a previous question in this post. Search on "HELL".
I've only denied that I have any desire to do get into one in the present and that I wasn't trying to get into the one who's app page I quoted as an example of raid schedules.
Notice how he attaches the qualifier "in the present". That's the first time ANYBODY'S seen that. He's now trying to cover his ass for furture posts.
(For anyone wondering, I "tried" to get into one by knowing some of their members, being invited, filling out their app, and accepting the /ginvite the next day, then /gquit several weeks later after experiencing the joys of raiding firsthand.
Wow. YOU ADMITTED IT? I BROKE YOU DOWN? Wow! I friggen KNEW you'd either been rejected from a raid guild, or been kicked out of one, but I NEVER thought you'd admit it!
Amusingly in light of his accusation of me only being in it for the loot, I left a couple of days before my 'trial period' was up and I could actually collect DKP loot, if I was really in it for the purple pixels I could have gone on one more MC run and spent myself negative before leaving.)
"Left", "got kicked out", whatever....lol
(snipped some irrelevant stuff)
So, pointing out how difficult it is to get into a raid guild isn't complaining about how difficult it is to get into a raid guild. You know what? How difficult it is or is not is irrelevent. I don't care. You say things lile "raids guilds are hard to get into" and then follow it up with "I've never tried to get into a raid guild." You're right...it makes it impossible to argue with you, because you can sprout off anything you'd like, and then when it starts to work against you, deny it has anything to do with you.
Third time's the charm, again there is zilch in the material he quoted (or indeed, in any of what I wrote) about it being difficult to get into a raid guild
Whatever dude. The only person who believes that is you. And with the revelation that you've actually BEEN in a raid guild...you're hurt son.
- yet for no reason I can fathom, he keeps saying that I did. He even puts it into quotes like he's quoting something I've said, but anyone can do a text search and see that I didn't. Same thing with the alleged quote about "I've never tried to get into a raid guild" - it's something that I just plain never said, not a quote or paraphrase of something I've said. The closest thing I've said is that I'm not trying (note present tense) to get into a raid guild and that I have no desire (again, present tense) to get into one, but there's a big difference between now and never.
Blah blah blah blah blah blah. You know, this backpedalling is the most effort you've put into any single point.
Just bear this exchange in mind if you try to have a serious discussion with him. He has no problem quoting two full paragraphs of me not talking about it being hard to get into a raid guild as proof that you were talking about it being hard to get into a raid guild!
I understand. Even when it's your own statements, you can only see the words you want to.
And just to show how surreal the conversaion is, he accuses me of sprouting stuff off then denying it.
"Accusing" and "pointing out" are two ENTIRELY differnt things.
Expect the same thing if you try to seriously converse with him.
I'm just about done with you now. You're entire logic flow has completely collapsed.
Oh, and the obligatory "Why do raids exist? How do they no build community." AMAZINGLY, he never took the easy way and simply attack the question with alternative reasons for the existance of raiding. He would have done much better in the debate, I think.
I'd have to say, in every MMORPG I've ever played, being forced to party with THE GUILD has always deteriorated my gameplay experience. Endgame is always dominated by the grinders/known botters/exploiters, usually a safe combination of the three. While WoW doesn't have this as much in my opinion, most MMO's I've played always has the one guild, with the best geared players, who have no lives at all outside of the game, dominating the game. To participate in most of the endgames, I have to kiss player's asses, usually whom are presumptuous asshats whom I despise, just to get that 1 piece of gear.
In my experience, endgames destroy communities, not build them. Because people have to start scheduling in raids for that piece of gear over hanging out with their friends. Killing out a social part of the game for the monetary/gear value of the game, well, that detracts from the MMO experience for me.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by Cymdai I'd have to say, in every MMORPG I've ever played, being forced to party with THE GUILD has always deteriorated my gameplay experience. Endgame is always dominated by the grinders/known botters/exploiters, usually a safe combination of the three. While WoW doesn't have this as much in my opinion, most MMO's I've played always has the one guild, with the best geared players, who have no lives at all outside of the game, dominating the game. To participate in most of the endgames, I have to kiss player's asses, usually whom are presumptuous asshats whom I despise, just to get that 1 piece of gear.
In my experience, endgames destroy communities, not build them. Because people have to start scheduling in raids for that piece of gear over hanging out with their friends. Killing out a social part of the game for the monetary/gear value of the game, well, that detracts from the MMO experience for me.
Excellent point Cymdai. But I think this tends to happen more during an MMORPG's decline. It didn't get like this in UO for YEARS. Everquest either. It never had a chance to happen in SWG.
WoW is still on the way up. Eventually, it will get that way (full of botters and exploiters). But for now, I firmly believe that even the casual player can still be competative (maybe not dominant) in endgame.
Originally posted by MikeMonger *sigh* Here we go again. More mis-statements, mis-quotes, and (in at least one case) a flat out friggen LIE.
Yes Mike, I expected you to ramble on about me misquoting you or taking you out of context or something. I'm just going to point out some of the absurdities in your latest rant, it's perfectly clear though that there's not going to be any sensible conversation here. Please keep on with this kind of response, it's quite amusing for me.
Here's the best bit:
But according to you, you hate raiding, never wanted to raid, and never even tryed to join a raiding guild. How the HELL would you know what "anyong looking to raiding has seen"? Or were those statements the same load of crap you're dumping now?
Mike is so divorced from reality here that he actually complains that I'm denying statements that not only did I never make, but that I've consistently denied making! He has yet to produce a quote of me saying that I *NEVER* wanted to raid, or *NEVER* tried to join a raiding guild, because they simply don't exist. Apparently Mike's problem is that he just doesn't understand the difference between "I do not want to to that" and "I have never wanted to do that", or the difference between "I am not attempting to join one " and "I have never attempted to join one". He actually goes on to say:
(me) I've only denied that I have any desire to do get into one in the present and that I wasn't trying to get into the one who's app page I quoted as an example of raid schedules.
Notice how he attaches the qualifier "in the present". That's the first time ANYBODY'S seen that. He's now trying to cover his ass for furture posts.
Somehow, me pointing out that "I don't want to raid" is a statement about the present is me trying to cover my ass and not me pointing out something very basic about English grammar. It's just so funny reading through it.
And this little gem:
(me)(For anyone wondering, I "tried" to get into one by knowing some of their members, being invited, filling out their app, and accepting the /ginvite the next day, then /gquit several weeks later after experiencing the joys of raiding firsthand.
Wow. YOU ADMITTED IT? I BROKE YOU DOWN? Wow! I friggen KNEW you'd either been rejected from a raid guild, or been kicked out of one, but I NEVER thought you'd admit it!
(me)Amusingly in light of his accusation of me only being in it for the loot, I left a couple of days before my 'trial period' was up and I could actually collect DKP loot, if I was really in it for the purple pixels I could have gone on one more MC run and spent myself negative before leaving.)
"Left", "got kicked out", whatever....lol
Now first off, note that I said I /gquit (which is me quitting the guild), and that me leaving a guild is not me getting kicked out of a guild, even if in Mike believes they're equivalent. This is a good example of Mike just completely making something up out of thin air, he wants it to be true so he just declares it to be so. This kind of thing is just funny, he's accurately quoting me and then going on to say that I said something that's clearly not in the text.
But to keep the amusement going, note he's triumphantly shouting that I "admitted" this and that he "broke [me] down" like this was a long-running point of discussion. Yet go back up through the thread - at no point did he or indeed anyone actually ask me any of what he supposedly broke me down into admitting; look back through the whole thread, there is no point where he asked 'were you ever in a raid guild' or 'were you ever rejected by a raid guild'. For some reason, he really believes that he 'broke me down' by never asking a single question on the topic and never even implying that he wanted to know it! In his mind it's a great vicrory that I 'admitted' something no one ever asked and that I would have 'admitted' if someome had, you know, actually asked about.
No, because you personally find the idea of scheduling time for a game ludicrous, for you, the only things you have are solo and PUG content.
Only a little later:
(Me)A lot of the confusion could be related the fact that he likes to use his his own definitions of words (without any explanation or acknowledgement that they're nonstandard) - from what he was saying, it's possible that he would just conser a guild group that had run instances together many times to be a PuG if they didn't schedule their particular instance run in advance.
Wow. Wow. Wow wow wow. This is COMPLETELY made up. Complete and total bollocks. You're not even trying anymore to make your lies even CLOSE to reasonable.
Notice that? At one point he's saying that since I don't want to schedule time for a game, I only have PuG and solo content. That certainly sounds like he's saying that if I were to participate in a guild group that had run instances together many times but didn't schedule a run it would count as PuG content in his eyes, as that would not require scheduling but clearly wouldn't be solo content. (Earlier I used that as a specific example) Yet just a few breaths later, he says that it's completely made up for me to think that such a thing would qualify as a PuG under his definition. I'd ask him to explain which one of his statements is true, but basic logic seems to confuse him.
(me)And how can you expect any kind of sensible conversation when someome seriously makes comments like: "I'm not a "raider", but according to you, because I raid, I'm a "raider". You're predjudiced."
Uh, its a valid statement. You were the one sprouting off crap about how I like to playt "word games", when I made the distinction between a raiding guild and a guild that raids.
I'm not even sure what to say here, he so vehement that 'raider' does not mean 'one who raids'. It's kind of like reading Kafka really, especially since he never bothers to say what the distinction is between a raider and one who raids, or between a raiding guild and a guild that raids. How in the world could a sensible conversation come from that kind of word game is far beyond me. I'd offer to leave it up to the readers to decide which one of us is making sense, but I wouldn't want to end up with a discussion about whether 'reading this thread' makes you a 'reader of this thread' or not.
Yes Mike, I expected you to ramble on about me misquoting you or taking you out of context or something. I'm just going to point out some of the absurdities in your latest rant, it's perfectly clear though that there's not going to be any sensible conversation here. Please keep on with this kind of response, it's quite amusing for me. The irony here almost made my head explode. Here's the best bit:
But according to you, you hate raiding, never wanted to raid, and never even tryed to join a raiding guild. How the HELL would you know what "anyong looking to raiding has seen"? Or were those statements the same load of crap you're dumping now?
Mike is so divorced from reality here that he actually complains that I'm denying statements that not only did I never make, but that I've consistently denied making! He has yet to produce a quote of me saying that I *NEVER* wanted to raid, or *NEVER* tried to join a raiding guild, because they simply don't exist.
From your post 5/19 11:25 pm:
"It's not at all like a "social event", it's like a job if anything. If I'm scheduling time to meet up with friends, I don't have to attend the exact same event with the exact same friends every 2-4 days of the week for 4-12 hours. We don't need to all show up at the same time, and also don't have to all leave at the same time."
From your post 5/20 2:29 pm:
"Oh, and speaking of ignoring valid points, what about all of the other points I made about raids being far more like a job than a social event? Especially the part about DKP systems,"
From your post 5/20 9:16 pm:
"Sure you have; I have repeatedly said that I do not want to participate in raids, raiding, or raid guilds (and from context and occasionally explicitly, that means PVE raids)."
Anti raiding guild comments like this pervade ALL your posts. Also, you've demonstrated a large amount of base ignorance about raids (the whole 4 hour thing). Say you'd never joined a raiding guild seemed a logical assumption, ESPECIALLY since, had you said in the beginning "I am a raiding guild veteran", you might have been able to put a little more weight behind your words, instead of sprouting off the same repetative raid hating crap that you can find in ANY raider vs. non-raider thread.
Saying "I used to be in a raiding guild and I hated it" sounds a lot more reasonable than "I hate raiding guilds because they ALL suck and they're ALL the same and they ALL have complex DKP systems."
So...actually what you've been doing is sprouting off unfounded steriotypes. Gotcha.
Apparently Mike's problem is that he just doesn't understand the difference between "I do not want to to that" and "I have never wanted to do that",
Word games again. I find it amazing that it took you 5 pages to drop this little bombshell into the discussion. More manufactured crap, perhaps? Whatever...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
or the difference between "I am not attempting to join one " and "I have never attempted to join one".
Blah blah blah
He actually goes on to say:
(me) I've only denied that I have any desire to do get into one in the present and that I wasn't trying to get into the one who's app page I quoted as an example of raid schedules.
Notice how he attaches the qualifier "in the present". That's the first time ANYBODY'S seen that. He's now trying to cover his ass for furture posts.
Somehow, me pointing out that "I don't want to raid" is a statement about the present
Yes. But saying " I have repeatedly said that I do not want to participate in raids, raiding, or raid guilds " has absolutely NO time context. That could apply to now, then, and forever.
is me trying to cover my ass and not me pointing out something very basic about English grammar. It's just so funny reading through it.
Now first off, note that I said I /gquit (which is me quitting the guild), and that me leaving a guild is not me getting kicked out of a guild,
You know, since you're extremely reticent with facts, and and seem to like to split those fine hairs only when it servers your purpose, I'm sure you're leaving ALL KINDS of stuff out of the story. You left without ever using your hard earned DKP? That right there indicates STRONG friction between you and the guild in question.
even if in Mike believes they're equivalent.
No, but I understand your debate style enough to know that you use hair splitting and half truths liberally.
This is a good example of Mike just completely making something up out of thin air, he wants it to be true so he just declares it to be so.
No, you've already repeatedly demonstrated your willingness mislead, misquote, and generally debate dishonestly. What's the full story behind your "/gquit"? Why did you choose to not even use your DKP, which you said you had enough of to get some phat loot?
This kind of thing is just funny, he's accurately quoting me and then going on to say that I said something that's clearly not in the text.
WOW! You admit I'm "accurately quoting" you? That's more than you've done, that's for gosh darn sure.
But to keep the amusement going, note he's triumphantly shouting that I "admitted" this and that he "broke [me] down" like this was a long-running point of discussion. Yet go back up through the thread - at no point did he or indeed anyone actually ask me any of what he supposedly broke me down into admitting;
See above. All you had to do initially was say "I was in a raiding guild and I didn't like it", but you chose to wait until page 6. Why? You seem to be the type of person who throws everything including the kitchen sink in a debate. Why hold back that tidbit for so long, when it would have at least given you the impression of knowing what you're talking about?
look back through the whole thread, there is no point where he asked 'were you ever in a raid guild' or 'were you ever rejected by a raid guild'.
See quote above. The whole "I have no desire" thing, along with your general, irrational hatred AND your lack of forthrightness made it a reasonable and logical assumption.
For some reason, he really believes that he 'broke me down' by never asking a single question on the topic and never even implying that he wanted to know it!
Uh, dude. The ENTIRE thread is about the nature of raiding and raid guilds. Why they exist. You know?
In his mind it's a great vicrory that I 'admitted' something no one ever asked and that I would have 'admitted' if someome had, you know, actually asked about.
Heh. You know what you try to be good at? Righteous indignation. You're not very good at it, btw.
No, because you personally find the idea of scheduling time for a game ludicrous, for you, the only things you have are solo and PUG content.
Only a little later:
(Me)A lot of the confusion could be related the fact that he likes to use his his own definitions of words (without any explanation or acknowledgement that they're nonstandard) - from what he was saying, it's possible that he would just conser a guild group that had run instances together many times to be a PuG if they didn't schedule their particular instance run in advance.
Wow. Wow. Wow wow wow. This is COMPLETELY made up. Complete and total bollocks. You're not even trying anymore to make your lies even CLOSE to reasonable.
Notice that? At one point he's saying that since I don't want to schedule time for a game, I only have PuG and solo content.
Yup. Unless you say "I'll be on around 6 tomorrow, meet up with you guys then." In that case, guess what? *gasp* You've just scheduled a time to meet up with people, and it's therefore NOT a PUG.
That certainly sounds like he's saying that if I were to participate in a guild group that had run instances together many times
Where did I say many times? I NEVER said many times! QUOTE where I said many times.
Heh...sorry. Just took a page from the Pantastic Book of Debate.
I love how you base your arguments on assumptions, but when anyone else does it, you sprout off paragraph after paragraph of righteous indignation, demanding quotes and such.
There's a word for that. Begins with an 'H'......
but didn't schedule a run it would count as PuG content in his eyes, as that would not require scheduling but clearly wouldn't be solo content.
Blah blah blah. This point was a reach to start, and ended badly for you.
(Earlier I used that as a specific example) Yet just a few breaths later, he says that it's completely made up for me to think that such a thing would qualify as a PuG under his definition. I'd ask him to explain which one of his statements is true, but basic logic seems to confuse him.
(me)And how can you expect any kind of sensible conversation when someome seriously makes comments like: "I'm not a "raider", but according to you, because I raid, I'm a "raider". You're predjudiced."
Uh, its a valid statement. You were the one sprouting off crap about how I like to playt "word games", when I made the distinction between a raiding guild and a guild that raids.
I'm not even sure what to say here, he so vehement that 'raider' does not mean 'one who raids'.
So, in the real world, if I take my gun to the shooting range, I'm a "shooter", even though the term "shooter" is normally defined as the person who guns down another person. In the real world, if I see a car, I'm a "seer", even though the term "seer" is defined as one who predicts the future. In the real world, if I drink a Pepsi, I'm a "drinker", even though the term "drinker" is normally defined as one who abuses alcohol.
Gotcha.
It's kind of like reading Kafka really, especially since he never bothers to say what the distinction is between a raider and one who raids,
You never asked. A raider does nothing BUT raid, and belongs to one of these super crappy raid guilds you like so much. A person who raids primarily does other stuff..like helping guildies level alts, leveling your own alts, etc.
There.
or between a raiding guild and a guild that raids.
See above. A raiding guild is, according to you, a craptastic festival of assholes who hate each other and only want to use each other to gain DKP for uber lewtz. A raiding guild does nothing OTHER than raid....it's the entire purpose of its existance.
A guild that raids does it occasionally, and primarily does other things.
There.
By the way, actually ASKING for the definition hurts you even more, because I've just written down what anyone with an ounce of common sense knows.
How in the world could a sensible conversation come from that kind of word game is far beyond me.
Heh. Word games. You're funny.
I'd offer to leave it up to the readers to decide which one of us is making sense, but I wouldn't want to end up with a discussion about whether 'reading this thread' makes you a 'reader of this thread' or not.
Heh, if I "read" the thread, I'm a "reader". In the IT field, a "reader" is an object that retrieves data from some kind of media. Now I'm a machine!
And the absolutely HILARIOUS point of this post is, he STILL hasn't even ACKNOWLEDGED the original concept of this thread!
Why do raids exist? Why do they NOT build community.
That's ok. I think he's running out of steam. It's hard work, juggling all that double talk.
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Mikes123 [quote] I for one do not kill raid bosses for items. I farm items to kill raid bosses, and that is the mentality that keeps players playing for such a ,long time. They don't see their fellow guildmates as tools to achieve personal and near sighted goals. We see the guild itself as the next step in the game. Building a guild, managing it's players, Farming items to make the guild as a whole stronger to beat new bosses and compete with other guilds. It's not a personal affair, but a community affair. [/quote]
if that is true, why do we need item rewards with ridicolously inflated stats at all? wouldn t the challenge itself and maybe rewards like titles or visually superior armor (as opposed to better stats) be a better way to keep the game fair for everyone, regardless wether they prefer 5mans, raids or pvp? thinking of it, isn t that exactly what Blizzard promised before release but failed to deliver ?
just to caveat to this. if you pre-ordered or bought wow early on (like the first 9 months of the game BEFORE there were any battlegrounds); then, read the box and your book that came with it. it talks about the wonderful battlegrounds and pvp that are a part of the game and which was a major selling point in my pre-ordering.
yet there were no battlegrounds until like 9 months after release into retail...
that speaks worlds about blizzard and wow.
raids are dev's way of 1- being lazy with end game and 2- being uncreative with end game.
what in wow stimulates a player economy? not crafts, there's nothing you can craft that can compete with drops end game. you lose nothing when you die. items don't decay do they? your "player economy" is all from drops.
they/blizz lament that no one does outdoor pvp. why should you? they buffed up town guards to get a bazillion extras real quick. town guards never dropped loot worth much anything, nor did random enemy npcs.
no player housing. no outposts which can be taken and held by horde or alliance. there's just no reason to attack any enemy towns ever.
think about the "community" that would be built (throughout an entire faction) by there being objectives to take? if each zone has a dozen outposts that either side could claim, but only a single guild can claim any one objective.... there's something to build a community around.
not from the (and i speak from about 9 years of MMO gaming experience most of which was as a part of a guild or clan) "hey, check the calendar for when this 8 hour borefest will start. stock up on whatever pots you'll need. make sure you bring plenty of ammo if you use it. we should get 4-6 good items tonight, so if you haven't gotten anything lately, you should get a drop tonight." that's not community. that's a group of people, like the previous poster stated, gearing up to fight the next big bad in yet another lengthy farmable borefest.
this still answers why raids don't foster any worthwhile community. but a myriad of other things can (and do in other games) foster a *realer* sense of community.
1 player economy 2 objectives ingame which provide tangible benefits to players (i.e. controlling outposts/towns)
a number of games have successfully implemented crafting systems (possibly carried out by npc henchmen instead of players), where the best items ingame are craftable, do decay and you could lose them if you die and are looted.
if it's farmable, it's easy. by definition farmable has to be easy, otherwise how are you farming it? you farm every raid area/instance.
thus it appeals to the lowest common denominator and ceases to actually be a challenge and instead is simply a timesink. you spend your time and get rewarded with nicer items for being bored for the past X amount of hours.
for a third time....
raids do not stimulate any sort of community.
which raid exactly does your guild get all giddy about and are like "yayayayayay i want to go i want to go, let's talk about it". about the time any dungeon becomes farmable, every guild i've played with, for the most part, loses interest and is just going thru the motions to finish gearing everyone up.
it doesn't give us great things to talk about.
it doesn't make us communicate more.
matter of fact, a lot less talking goes on, it's something like. *enter dungeon*. everyone ready? everyone have raid assist on? ok, primary and secondary are linked. anyone have any questions or need to make any stops we don't normally make?
then it's just a matter of "bleh bleh dropped, who wants it?"
rest of the time we're just killing the same old stuff.
versus, say we hit a battleground. lots of communication going on voice. the folks who are guarding an objective will start chit chatting until it hits the fan for someone else in the group. then a bunch of communication goes on.
again not really building a community.
now, say you're somewhere like sil. doing some of those quests out there. the ones you can 5 man or less. that's pretty easy, not hectic, not the total bore fest because you can quit at any time and we just pick someone else up to join us.
or if someone is grinding away on skilling up some tradeskills. they'll chat on voice while doing that. if you're leveling an alt, it's same old stuff, nothing hectic, nothing that requires you to be stuck for hours. less stress if you know you can quit at any time, especially if you have family, friends, and like to not neglect them.
so here's yet another example of things that help build up a community (this time within a guild) and why raiding really doesn't.
raiding in any game has never led to friendships that lasted past that game or into the real world. i've made quite a number of friends playing games online. a number of them became offline friends. not a one was a result of any sort of supposed community from boring raids. if anything, the offline ones would be the first ones to admit that the raids were a total drag and we should look for another game or maybe start leveling alts.
again, this is coming from someone with a family and friends, who plays with a lot of people who have family and friends. this i say because if you're single, or a kid/teen, you probably don't HAVE to leave all of a sudden due to pets, kids, wife, job, or whatever happens at the last minute that demands your attention.
or maybe you just play for half an hour and you're just flat out bored with the computer that day. boom, let's hit a movie, go to a restaurant, hit a club, whatever. how many people did you just totally irk in a raid by doing that?
oh you should plan ahead, you should make it a priority. as soon as i start sleeping with a game, a game starts paying my bills, or a game becomes a member of my family or friends, i'll consider that. until that time, it's NOT a job, it shall not have a place of priority in the lives of *normal* people with families, friends, and responsibilities. period. dot.
anyone that thinks raiding is a grand idea, just has too much time on their hands.
decaying items. penalties from death (such as you can lose items). these things stimulate a player-run economy. THIS builds a community. this can be a very social thing. malls are created this way. people might try to get the crafter to set up vendors at their mall as well. or provide things for their guild at a bulk rate. see how this sort of thing stimulates conversations and can easily lead into working relationships?
versus just using people to get you some nifty purple items. while being bored to tears, doing the same farming that you've done the past three months.... i'm stil at a loss to how people consider that fun.
player housing. ok, let's see how that generates community. your guild has a place to hang, with chairs, sofas, big screen tvs, lava lamps, whatever. again we have vendor malls. maybe you've got your own crib where you build your robots or house your pets... "hey man, have you seen the cool trophies i got last time we went to hookaboolock island? they're up on the walls in my den, come check it out."
versus "hey rat-sniper, you be bait for the big dragon, i'll rez ya." hey guys, we're nearing the end, it was fun, grats to everyone that got stuff on this 6 hour tour, this 6 hour tour. next week, we'll bring ginger and gilligan and we should all have the same exact gear by then~!! then we can start doing 6 hour tours in another dungeon until we're all dressed alike again~!! gooooooo team gilligan~!!"
just because someone believes they are right in their mind, doesn't make it so. just because someone keeps saying the sun is made of marshmallows, and says it 10 times a day for 50 years, doesn't make it so. just because 5 billion chinese eat a LOT of rice, that doesn't mean i should give up potatoes and bread and only have rice.
uo, first mmo, did end game right.
eq, second mmo, totally dorked end game.
two big guild leaders from eq started "advising" wow folks. all they ever knew was big huge raiding... they seem to have no creativity or imagination aside from "hey we did this in eq, we can improve it by making it an instance".
more of the same boring farmable laughably-easy content does not make a game great. it makes it easy. pretty colors makes it appealing to kids. voila, nuff said.
the next generation is taking a queue from the grandpappy of mmo's -- uo. but they're actually improving upon it. instead of open ended play with big bads here and there and GM run events every few weeks, they're making it to where the gameworld reacts to player actions. we're already seeing this in eve and shadowbane, with more to follow in both and in quite a few other games.
game doesn't need millions of subs in order to
1 survive 2 turn a tidy profit 3 have great graphics 4 have great devs 5 have original ideas, or greatly improve upon GOOD ideas
games with millions of subs seem to think
1 they don't have to listen to the fans because well, they have millions 2 their devs must be uber creative cuz the pretty colors have all the little kids playing 3 no need to do anything new or different, because they can use the pretty graphics to keep generating new buzz, and can say "hey we have millions, we must be the best" 4 you get the jist.
emo is not an excuse for bad manners, and one tracked mindedness doesn't mean that someone isn't mentally deficient. some wise person said something to that effect once.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
This is really amusing, though I doubt anyone else is bothering to read at this point.
(me) Mike is so divorced from reality here that he actually complains that I'm denying statements that not only did I never make, but that I've consistently denied making! He has yet to produce a quote of me saying that I *NEVER* wanted to raid, or *NEVER* tried to join a raiding guild, because they simply don't exist.
(Mike) From your post 5/19 11:25 pm: "It's not at all like a "social event", it's like a job if anything. If I'm scheduling time to meet up with friends, I don't have to attend the exact same event with the exact same friends every 2-4 days of the week for 4-12 hours. We don't need to all show up at the same time, and also don't have to all leave at the same time." From your post 5/20 2:29 pm: "Oh, and speaking of ignoring valid points, what about all of the other points I made about raids being far more like a job than a social event? Especially the part about DKP systems," From your post 5/20 9:16 pm: "Sure you have; I have repeatedly said that I do not want to participate in raids, raiding, or raid guilds (and from context and occasionally explicitly, that means PVE raids)."
Notice a common theme in every quote? Just like I said before, "he has yet to produce a quote of me saying that I *NEVER* wanted to raid, or *NEVER* tried to join a raiding guild, because they simply don't exist." I don't know what more to say, when challenged directly to quote something of me saying what he says I said, this is the result.
Anti raiding guild comments like this pervade ALL your posts. Also, you've demonstrated a large amount of base ignorance about raids (the whole 4 hour thing). Say you'd never joined a raiding guild seemed a logical assumption, ESPECIALLY since, had you said in the beginning "I am a raiding guild veteran", you might have been able to put a little more weight behind your words, instead of sprouting off the same repetative raid hating crap that you can find in ANY raider vs. non-raider thread.
For all his vehemence about what I said, if you read this Mike actually admits that I never said what he keeps claiming I said, that it was an ASSUMPTION by him. I'm not sure how to make it any clearer, or why he's arguing the point, he admits that it was never a claim of mine, just an assumption of his.
Edited to add: Also, it is interesting that on one had he claims that it was a logical assumption that I never joined a raiding guild, but also "Wow! I friggen KNEW you'd either been rejected from a raid guild, or been kicked out of one, but I NEVER thought you'd admit it!". Apparently one thing was a logical assumption, and he also KNEW another thing that contradicted the logical assumption.
Apparently Mike's problem is that he just doesn't understand the difference between "I do not want to to that" and "I have never wanted to do that",
Word games again. I find it amazing that it took you 5 pages to drop this little bombshell into the discussion. More manufactured crap, perhaps? Whatever...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
or the difference between "I am not attempting to join one " and "I have never attempted to join one".
Blah blah blah
Somehow mentioning something that you should have learned in English 101 is dropping a 'bombshell'. And for more amusement:
Yes. But saying " I have repeatedly said that I do not want to participate in raids, raiding, or raid guilds " has absolutely NO time context. That could apply to now, then, and forever.
"I do not want to.." is present tense. There is no bombshell being dropped, or wordgames going on, it's just basic English grammar, there's not really much more to say. Apparently I'm playing some kind of tricky game by making a clear statement in the present tense in English, then later pointing out that it's a statement in the present tense.
And on the topic of his definitions:
You never asked. A raider does nothing BUT raid, and belongs to one of these super crappy raid guilds you like so much. A person who raids primarily does other stuff..like helping guildies level alts, leveling your own alts, etc. See above. A raiding guild is, according to you, a craptastic festival of assholes who hate each other and only want to use each other to gain DKP for uber lewtz. A raiding guild does nothing OTHER than raid....it's the entire purpose of its existance. A guild that raids does it occasionally, and primarily does other things. There.
By the way, actually ASKING for the definition hurts you even more, because I've just written down what anyone with an ounce of common sense knows.
If these definitions of Mike's are really so common, why has no one else been using them even on this thread, including Mike? According to the definition above, no one in the game has ever been beaten by a raider in PVP, and no one has ever had a BG rolled by a raiding guild! According to what he wrote, you'll never encounter a raider or raiding guild in PVP, because by definition "A raider does nothing BUT raid" and "A raiding guild does nothing OTHER than raid". I suppose we could take a survey on this board and see if anyone else uses the terms like Mike does, but I think anyone with an ounce of common sense already knows the answer to that one.
Amusingly, Mike doesn't actually use these definitions himself. Earlier he said "By the way, WHY exactly do you resent raids and raiders so much, if it weren't for the uber leet gear they keep pwning you in PvP with?" By the definition he gave above and berated my for not knowing, a raider would never pwn me in PvP because "A raider does nothing BUT raid,". I'm sure Mike will try to weasel out of it, but it's still amusing to point out. Somehow I don't feel bad about not using tricky definitions of terms when they're not even the definitions that Mike uses.
Now, before I begin, I just want to say that it's WONDERFUL to see people actually discussing the topic at hand. Whether you agree with me or not, the actual exchange of ideas is great.
Originally posted by damian7
for a third time....
raids do not stimulate any sort of community.
which raid exactly does your guild get all giddy about and are like "yayayayayay i want to go i want to go, let's talk about it".
In my particular guild's case, we do indeed get excited about doing things at the guild level. Most of the time, we're wandering around, doing our own thing, or we're fractured into smaller groups doing doing various instances or helping each other level alts or whatever.
When I say community, THAT'S what I'm talking about. It's the only mechanic currently in WoW that allows us to do things at the guild level.
about the time any dungeon becomes farmable, every guild i've played with, for the most part, loses interest and is just going thru the motions to finish gearing everyone up.
True, but even that's fun. See below.
it doesn't give us great things to talk about.
it doesn't make us communicate more.
I disagree. The more we have the raid on autopilot, the more we can chat about non-raid stuff. You know...one guildy's wife just had a baby, another just got engaged, another just got a new job. Then there's the BS...Saturday's "heated" discussion centered around what was going to happen to Fat Vito on the Sopranos.
matter of fact, a lot less talking goes on, it's something like. *enter dungeon*. everyone ready? everyone have raid assist on? ok, primary and secondary are linked. anyone have any questions or need to make any stops we don't normally make? Maybe in your guild, but not in mine.
then it's just a matter of "bleh bleh dropped, who wants it?"
rest of the time we're just killing the same old stuff. Son, you've just described ALL instanced content in WoW...5 man all the way up to 40 man.
versus, say we hit a battleground. lots of communication going on voice. the folks who are guarding an objective will start chit chatting until it hits the fan for someone else in the group. then a bunch of communication goes on. Yes, battlegrounds are the OTHER mechanic that allows people to work together on a large scale. The reason why battleground rewards are less than raid rewards is because you're not REQUIRED to work with others. You can hang back, do very little, not chat, and still get PvP credit. If they fix that, and REQUIRE people to work together, than I'm all for making the rewards equal to or better than raid rewards.
again not really building a community.
now, say you're somewhere like sil. doing some of those quests out there. the ones you can 5 man or less. that's pretty easy, not hectic, not the total bore fest because you can quit at any time and we just pick someone else up to join us. Eh. Some five mans are just as boring or more boring than raids *cough* Maraudon *cough*
or if someone is grinding away on skilling up some tradeskills. they'll chat on voice while doing that. if you're leveling an alt, it's same old stuff, nothing hectic, nothing that requires you to be stuck for hours. less stress if you know you can quit at any time, especially if you have family, friends, and like to not neglect them. Once you get them down, raids aren't hectic either.
so here's yet another example of things that help build up a community (this time within a guild) and why raiding really doesn't. I never made the claim that these things build community. But nothing builds community like "forcing" 40 people together to accomplish a goal.
raiding in any game has never led to friendships that lasted past that game or into the real world. Not true. But I'm beginning to think I'm the exception, not the rule. i've made quite a number of friends playing games online. a number of them became offline friends. not a one was a result of any sort of supposed community from boring raids. No, they were the result of hanging out for long periods of time, working together, and having fun. In WoW, the only mechanic that does this on a large scale is raiding. Come up with something else that accomlishes the same thing from a social perspective, and the rewards it provides will be just as great. if anything, the offline ones would be the first ones to admit that the raids were a total drag and we should look for another game or maybe start leveling alts. Oh, the raids in themselves are boring as sin once you've got them down. You'll get no argument from me. I go for the chitchat and the hanging out.
again, this is coming from someone with a family and friends, who plays with a lot of people who have family and friends. this i say because if you're single, or a kid/teen, you probably don't HAVE to leave all of a sudden due to pets, kids, wife, job, or whatever happens at the last minute that demands your attention.
or maybe you just play for half an hour and you're just flat out bored with the computer that day. boom, let's hit a movie, go to a restaurant, hit a club, whatever. how many people did you just totally irk in a raid by doing that? A good point.
...no need to respond to the rest. In summation...you've put some good ideas in there, others I don't agree with.
I agree with some of the things you said. Is raiding the BEST way to foster community on a large scale? Maybe, maybe not. But is it currently the only mechanic in WoW that does it? Yup. I'm not against creating new ways to accomplish what raiding does for community building, because everybody wins when you have alternatives.
When I say community, THAT'S what I'm talking about. It's the only mechanic currently in WoW that allows us to do things at the guild level.
this is blizzard's fault.
no player housing.
pvp is a pve grind.
no benefits from "outdoor" pvp.
outdoor raiding like the big bad in sil - yup, haven't seen anything come from "community"s standpoint from that junk. big gaggle of folks, kill the big bad, thanks everyone, buhbye.
they've done nothing but take the lazy way out. there's a million ways they could generate real community. they don't. they consciously choose not to.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I disagree. The more we have the raid on autopilot, the more we can chat about non-raid stuff. You know...one guildy's wife just had a baby, another just got engaged, another just got a new job. Then there's the BS...Saturday's "heated" discussion centered around what was going to happen to Fat Vito on the Sopranos.
ok wait. at what point in the game can you NOT do all of those? raiding doesn't encourage that. that's the talk you do while doing ANYTHING in wow. except, instead of it being boring, you might put the talk on hold for a bit cuz you just found something new and cool.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
All I have to say is that raiding does not build commnunit building. My guild in City of Heroes had more of a community with no sort of End Game in it. How did we have fun. Well we all hung out together usually had a few of the longer 8 player team missions going on and the fact that we all hung out together made it so people were like wow who are those guys all lvl 40+ that fly around in groups of 10 or so. People knew who we were but not because we did anything crazy cool we just hung together and often invited other people to play with us. It was really fun. City of Heroes has little to no endgame but I would say the community is better than WoW's haven't played it for awhile so it could be different.
Originally posted by Pantastic This is really amusing, though I doubt anyone else is bothering to read at this point. Yup. Just you and me. Notice a common theme in every quote? Just like I said before, "he has yet to produce a quote of me saying that I *NEVER* wanted to raid, or *NEVER* tried to join a raiding guild, because they simply don't exist." I don't know what more to say, when challenged directly to quote something of me saying what he says I said, this is the result. I address that further on.
For all his vehemence about what I said, if you read this Mike actually admits that I never said what he keeps claiming I said, that it was an ASSUMPTION by him.
See what I say about assuming later on. See, apparently, it's ok for YOU to make assumptions, but anyone else does it, they're full of crap.
I'm not sure how to make it any clearer, or why he's arguing the point, he admits that it was never a claim of mine, just an assumption of his.
A perfectly valid assumption that you never bothered correcting until page 6. Have I made the claim since? Nope.
(Me)Apparently Mike's problem is that he just doesn't understand the difference between "I do not want to to that" and "I have never wanted to do that",
Word games again. I find it amazing that it took you 5 pages to drop this little bombshell into the discussion. More manufactured crap, perhaps? Whatever...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
(Me) or the difference between "I am not attempting to join one " and "I have never attempted to join one".
Blah blah blah
Somehow mentioning something that you should have learned in English 101 is dropping a 'bombshell'.
Now, that was just an insult for insult's sake. It doesn't even make any sense. Unless...you do know what the phrase "dropping a bombshell" means, don't you?
I also like how for some unfathomable reason he split my statement into 2 parts, responded to one part with something that could apply to both, then put a pointless 'blah blah blah' on the second.
Because your point is weak. You know it....that's why you're so vehemently trying to make it.
*you* Makes every statement in the world indicating how much you hate raids and raiding guilds.
*me* Repeatedly talks about how you tried and failed to get into a raid guild.
*you* Don't bother correcting the assumption until late into the discussion.
Give it up. You could have corrected the assumption at ANY TIME YOU WANTED TO. You chose not to. Therefore, you trying to take me to task over it is pointless, petty, and stupid. You're only doing it because you have NOTHING left to fall back on.
And for more amusement:
Yes. But saying " I have repeatedly said that I do not want to participate in raids, raiding, or raid guilds " has absolutely NO time context. That could apply to now, then, and forever.
"I do not want to.." is present tense. There is no bombshell being dropped, or wordgames going on, it's just basic English grammar, there's not really much more to say. Apparently I'm playing some kind of tricky game by making a clear statement in the present tense in English, then later pointing out that it's a statement in the present tense.
Wow. Kind of like Bill Clinton and the "define 'is'" thing. Give it up. If you fail to correct an assumption, that assumption is perfectly valid until it is corrected.
And on the topic of his definitions:
You never asked. A raider does nothing BUT raid, and belongs to one of these super crappy raid guilds you like so much. A person who raids primarily does other stuff..like helping guildies level alts, leveling your own alts, etc. See above. A raiding guild is, according to you, a craptastic festival of assholes who hate each other and only want to use each other to gain DKP for uber lewtz. A raiding guild does nothing OTHER than raid....it's the entire purpose of its existance. A guild that raids does it occasionally, and primarily does other things. There.
By the way, actually ASKING for the definition hurts you even more, because I've just written down what anyone with an ounce of common sense knows.
If these definitions of Mike's are really so common, why has no one else been using them even on this thread, including Mike?
Because nobody else has pursued your petty line of debate. If you read the few non-you/me posts, they're actually DISCUSSING the idea put forward in the OP, something you've studiously decided NOT to do.
And if you read the WoW forums, the differences are well known and commonly used. No, I WON'T provide links. Look for them yourself.
Basically, at this point, you really are just scraping bottom of the barrel.
According to the definition above, no one in the game has ever been beaten by a raider in PVP, and no one has ever had a BG rolled by a raiding guild!
Wow. Just....wow. Pathetic. Truely pathetic. The above definitions don't even come friggen CLOSE to saying anything even REMOTELY like that. You CAN'T be this dense. At this point, I'm assuming you're merely trolling.
According to what he wrote, you'll never encounter a raider or raiding guild in PVP, because by definition "A raider does nothing BUT raid"
Fine. Replace "nothing but" with "primarily". Split more hairs. It really is all you have left. Your "logical" arguments have all been taken care of...now all you have left is symantics. I'm sure you'll quote this line and have a hoot writing 5 or 6 paragraphs...all pointless, off topic, and silly.
and "A raiding guild does nothing OTHER than raid". I suppose we could take a survey on this board and see if anyone else uses the terms like Mike does, but I think anyone with an ounce of common sense already knows the answer to that one.
Yes. I'm right, you're wrong.
You've GOT to be trolling now.
Amusingly, Mike doesn't actually use these definitions himself. Earlier he said "By the way, WHY exactly do you resent raids and raiders so much, if it weren't for the uber leet gear they keep pwning you in PvP with?"
Yes, that was my question, which you never answered.
By the definition he gave above and berated my for not knowing,
Really? Saying "you never asked" is berating? Heh. You're sensative.
a raider would never pwn me in PvP because "A raider does nothing BUT raid,".
Dude, look at what you're writing! For the love of God, have some dignity! You've just based an ENTIRE post on the word "but".
I'm sure Mike will try to weasel out of it,
Nope. Just kind of saddened that you're reduced to this.
but it's still amusing to point out. Somehow I don't feel bad about not using tricky definitions of terms when they're not even the definitions that Mike uses.
Heh. Tricky.
Seriously, why are you even bothering to still post? Are you really THAT stubborn? I've cracked your debate style, which is to ultimately to veer the discussion AWAY from any point that you either can't address, won't address, or lose the argument on. You decend into progressively less and less relevent material, until you produce....this post. A rant on "but".
You HAVE to be trolling, but that's ok. You're really not upsetting me. Just kind of making me scratch me head.
If you'd like to discuss the topic of the thread, please do so. But really...your posts are at this point completely ridiculous. I mean, before I actually had to put a modicrum of effort into refuting your stuff. Now...it's just too damned easy.
Originally posted by damian7 When I say community, THAT'S what I'm talking about. It's the only mechanic currently in WoW that allows us to do things at the guild level.
this is blizzard's fault.
no player housing.
pvp is a pve grind.
no benefits from "outdoor" pvp.
outdoor raiding like the big bad in sil - yup, haven't seen anything come from "community"s standpoint from that junk. big gaggle of folks, kill the big bad, thanks everyone, buhbye.
they've done nothing but take the lazy way out. there's a million ways they could generate real community. they don't. they consciously choose not to.
I've said repeatedly, other games do it other ways. The fact that raiding is the only way to build community on a large scale IS Blizzard's fault.
And I clearly stated, I'm not adverse to introducing new ways to do the same thing.
Originally posted by damian7 I disagree. The more we have the raid on autopilot, the more we can chat about non-raid stuff. You know...one guildy's wife just had a baby, another just got engaged, another just got a new job. Then there's the BS...Saturday's "heated" discussion centered around what was going to happen to Fat Vito on the Sopranos.
ok wait. at what point in the game can you NOT do all of those? raiding doesn't encourage that. that's the talk you do while doing ANYTHING in wow. except, instead of it being boring, you might put the talk on hold for a bit cuz you just found something new and cool.
If you have 40 guildy's spread out among 8 instances, those 8 groups simply do not interact at the same level that 1 group does. They're each doing their own thing, and usually it requires more of their attention than raiding does.
There not instances and the guild members are multiple levels. Thats why different people are doing different things in City of Heroes and I would spend alot of my time helping out some of the lover level people and running lower level task forces with them when I could or having like 4 40's sidekick some of the lowbies and we would go have a blast. The guild chat was always alive and people were talking to each other about all kinds of things. All I am saying is that the community and guild that I had in City of Heroes was far deeper than WoW. I knew way more people a lot of people knew me and I would often just sit and hang out with people talk about cosutmes read people's backgrounds and stuff it was awesome.
Originally posted by MikeMonger Originally posted by damian7 When I say community, THAT'S what I'm talking about. It's the only mechanic currently in WoW that allows us to do things at the guild level.
this is blizzard's fault.
no player housing.
pvp is a pve grind.
no benefits from "outdoor" pvp.
outdoor raiding like the big bad in sil - yup, haven't seen anything come from "community"s standpoint from that junk. big gaggle of folks, kill the big bad, thanks everyone, buhbye.
they've done nothing but take the lazy way out. there's a million ways they could generate real community. they don't. they consciously choose not to.
I've said repeatedly, other games do it other ways. The fact that raiding is the only way to build community on a large scale IS Blizzard's fault.
And I clearly stated, I'm not adverse to introducing new ways to do the same thing.
Yeah, I pretty much said the same thing to him, but he won't listen.
Originally posted by MikeMonger *you* Makes every statement in the world indicating how much you hate raids and raiding guilds. *me* Repeatedly talks about how you tried and failed to get into a raid guild. *you* Don't bother correcting the assumption until late into the discussion. Give it up. You could have corrected the assumption at ANY TIME YOU WANTED TO. You chose not to. Therefore, you trying to take me to task over it is pointless, petty, and stupid. You're only doing it because you have NOTHING left to fall back on.
LOL, this is a very impressive turn by Mike - if anyone's been following the conversation I'm sure they're amused. Mike repeatedly talked about how he claimed that I "never" wanted to get into a raid guild, and that's what I kept arguing with and what I've been pointing out that he is just making up. The only time he said the bit about "tried and failed" was after the post where I said that I had been in a raid guild. Mike actually posted stuff like "So...wait...you haven't even bothered trying to get into one, and you've already given up, because none of them will want you? Interesting," as an incorrect assumption, which I did correct.
(me) "I do not want to.." is present tense. There is no bombshell being dropped, or wordgames going on, it's just basic English grammar, there's not really much more to say. Apparently I'm playing some kind of tricky game by making a clear statement in the present tense in English, then later pointing out that it's a statement in the present tense.
Wow. Kind of like Bill Clinton and the "define 'is'" thing. Give it up. If you fail to correct an assumption, that assumption is perfectly valid until it is corrected.
I corrected many incorrect assumptions on his part in my reply to the posts where he made them. If you're assuming something in your head and not writing it down on in your post, I'm not telepathic so I can't know what your assumption is. Anyone can go back up, and see where the first 'tried and failed' post from Mike is. And I still find the fact that Mike believes there is some kind of word game in pointing out that a statement is in the present tense hilarious.
And back to the old Mike Definitions:
By the way, actually ASKING for the definition hurts you even more, because I've just written down what anyone with an ounce of common sense knows.
(me) According to the definition above, no one in the game has ever been beaten by a raider in PVP, and no one has ever had a BG rolled by a raiding guild!
Wow. Just....wow. Pathetic. Truely pathetic. The above definitions don't even come friggen CLOSE to saying anything even REMOTELY like that. You CAN'T be this dense. At this point, I'm assuming you're merely trolling.
OK, so in one breath he says that what he wrote doesn't even come friggen CLOSE to saying anything REMOTELY like that, but...
(me) According to what he wrote, you'll never encounter a raider or raiding guild in PVP, because by definition "A raider does nothing BUT raid"
Fine. Replace "nothing but" with "primarily". Split more hairs. It really is all you have left. Your "logical" arguments have all been taken care of...now all you have left is symantics. I'm sure you'll quote this line and have a hoot writing 5 or 6 paragraphs...all pointless, off topic, and silly.
In the very next breath he admits that his definition not one came friggen CLOSE to saying anything like that, but that he'd actually have to change the wording to make it not say that.
So, he says that I'm misusing a term, I say that I'm not, that I'm using it in the normal English sense, when pressed for a definition for the term I'm allegedly misuing he provides one and says that anyone with common sense knows it, then when I point out that his definition is not what anyone is actually using, he accuses me of splitting hairs! Somehow, his claiming that I was inaccurate in using 'raider' instead of saying 'one who raids' or using 'raiding guild' instead of 'guild that raids' was not hair-splitting at all, not pointless symantics, and perfectly on topic, but my pointing out that what he claims are the correct definitions are wrong is just a nit-picking waste of time. I wait with bated breath to see what he comes up with next.
Seriously, why are you even bothering to still post? Are you really THAT stubborn? I've cracked your debate style, which is to ultimately to veer the discussion AWAY from any point that you either can't address, won't address, or lose the argument on. You decend into progressively less and less relevent material, until you produce....this post. A rant on "but".
Fascinating isn't it? Mike's the one who whined and cried about how it was unfair that I called him a raider instead of 'one who raids', and that I refered to a guild that raids as a raiding guild, yet somehow he believes I'm the one descending into irrelevant material.
You HAVE to be trolling, but that's ok. You're really not upsetting me. Just kind of making me scratch me head. If you'd like to discuss the topic of the thread, please do so. But really...your posts are at this point completely ridiculous. I mean, before I actually had to put a modicrum of effort into refuting your stuff. Now...it's just too damned easy.
The irony of Mike thinking he's "refuting" my stuff is great, I can't stop responding just to see what he'll make up next.
The OP is typical of the raider mentality. The very idea that raid or die is the only type of endgame that anyone in theri right mind can expect from a MMO, the idea that acomplishing anything meaningful at endgame should take 39 strangers' help, the rediculous sence of entitlement (the laughable premise that raiders "deserve" the best loot" etc.) Well, just because that's all WoW has to offer does not mean that there is nothing else to offer.
You're right, the WoW forums are clogged with posts complaining about this issue, and it is dividing the WoW community. But there's good reason for that. See, WoW was designed as a casual-friendly game. It was marketed as a casual friendly game. Read the box. Not casual friendly for 59 levels, and then a mind numbing grindfest in instances with packs of lemming-like strangers for the rest of the game.
So are people upset that the game has turned into an astonishingly poor copy of EQ's raid endgame? Well, of course. Plenty of people left EQ for World of Grindcraft. I'm sure that if they told us that Tigole was going to become the head dev, hire all his raider friends from his guild, and copy old tired and dead ideas from EQ for the next two years, we wouldn't have bought it. We coulda stayed playing EQ, which had a much better endgame raiding situation already. The playerbase, as a whole, was lied to. Repeatedly. Over and over. And the lies don't stop from Blizzard either.
We apologize for the server/realms instabilty, we had no idea the game would be this popular. remember that one? From last year, or last week...
You mean I can't login for days because you don't know how many copies of the game you've made, or how many you sold??? But you're still making and selling them, aren't you?
I hope they get cancer, lying weasels.
So let the raiders have thier rants about how they deserve everything and anyone who doesn't raid should quit. It dosen't matter one bit. Enjoy your "entitlement". It's good for about another 6 months or so.
With all the games coming out, by this time next year, the only people still playing the box-of-lies that is WoW will be the teleport-hacking goldfarmers, and boldfaced-liar dev's, still creating content to re-live thier glory days from a decade ago in EQ, and maybe a few diehard raiders, stroking thier e-peens telling each other about how they deserve everything. The only reason the consolidation of the servers hasn't happened in WoW up to now is the absence of any other true MMO to jump ship to. Thankfully, by this Christmas, that will change.
The rest of the gaming community is moving on. And Burning Crusade won't save them either.
And to suggest that there is any sembalance to community, or any in-game mechanics in WoW that promotes community, espically raiding, is so rediculous that I almost fell off my chair laughing, and had to wipe away the tears of laughter before typing this post. WoW has no community at all, and never has. Unless you count Chuck Norris jokes as being a community-builder.
Those that know, don't need to be told. Those that don't know, won't listen.
Oh I don't know.....WoW is a linear pve game.....linear pve games all have the big raids for end game.....It's not my style and I don't subscribe to WoW anymore....I prefer ffa pvp games.....but quite a few people really do enjoy it......comes down to personal preferance.
As far as being casual friendly WoW was in some respects compared to most mmo's when it was in early beta and such....
The irony of Mike thinking he's "refuting" my stuff is great, I can't stop responding just to see what he'll make up next.
What I'll make up next? How about this...I'm done. It's pointless. You have proven, to me, and to anybody even looking in this direction, one thing....you hate raids and raiding guilds.
Congratulations.
You've also proven, in your own mind, that I'm a "raider" who belongs to a "raiding guild". Again...congratulations. Of course, I, my guildies, and anyone who's acually reading these posts know that simply isn't true...but you've convinced yourself.
I'm done with you. Your debate style is extremely hypocritical and more than a little dishonest. You attempt to use symantics and sentence structure, instead of logic and example, to prove your points, and that's always the callsign of the bad debater.
And, because it's so pathetically easy, you can just keep doing it forever. There's no point in replying to you anymore, because you'll take an "and", and turn it into 5 paragraphs of pointelss drivel. I reply to that, you'll use a "with" I write in the response, and turn that into 6 more paragraphs of pointless drivel. Etc., etc.
You want to continue discussing? Fine. Why do raids exist? Why do they NOT foster community.
And since you won't answer that, I won't even waste my time reading (or responding to) any more of your posts.
Comments
yet there were no battlegrounds until like 9 months after release into retail...
that speaks worlds about blizzard and wow.
raids are dev's way of 1- being lazy with end game and 2- being uncreative with end game.
what in wow stimulates a player economy? not crafts, there's nothing you can craft that can compete with drops end game. you lose nothing when you die. items don't decay do they? your "player economy" is all from drops.
they/blizz lament that no one does outdoor pvp. why should you? they buffed up town guards to get a bazillion extras real quick. town guards never dropped loot worth much anything, nor did random enemy npcs.
no player housing. no outposts which can be taken and held by horde or alliance. there's just no reason to attack any enemy towns ever.
think about the "community" that would be built (throughout an entire faction) by there being objectives to take? if each zone has a dozen outposts that either side could claim, but only a single guild can claim any one objective.... there's something to build a community around.
not from the (and i speak from about 9 years of MMO gaming experience most of which was as a part of a guild or clan) "hey, check the calendar for when this 8 hour borefest will start. stock up on whatever pots you'll need. make sure you bring plenty of ammo if you use it. we should get 4-6 good items tonight, so if you haven't gotten anything lately, you should get a drop tonight." that's not community. that's a group of people, like the previous poster stated, gearing up to fight the next big bad in yet another lengthy farmable borefest.
this still answers why raids don't foster any worthwhile community. but a myriad of other things can (and do in other games) foster a *realer* sense of community.
1 player economy
2 objectives ingame which provide tangible benefits to players (i.e. controlling outposts/towns)
a number of games have successfully implemented crafting systems (possibly carried out by npc henchmen instead of players), where the best items ingame are craftable, do decay and you could lose them if you die and are looted.
if it's farmable, it's easy. by definition farmable has to be easy, otherwise how are you farming it? you farm every raid area/instance.
thus it appeals to the lowest common denominator and ceases to actually be a challenge and instead is simply a timesink. you spend your time and get rewarded with nicer items for being bored for the past X amount of hours.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well, it's time to boil all of these great walls of text down to the core. Mike believes that "not raiding" and "not participating in the community" are equivalent, that if you don't raid you're not participating in the community. We've seen this numerous times, where I'll post something about not wanting to raid and he'll respond with something mentioning the 'fact' that I don't want to participate in the community. It's consistent throughout his posts, I'd quote some but frankly I think most people are getting tired of big walls of quoted text, go back to my last post and there are a couple quoted there. This means that his initial post really means something like 'Raids are the best place to get loot in wow because Blizzard wants to encourage community, and I have defined participating in the community to be equivalent to participating in raids'
To make it even more difficult, Mike insists constantly that he's only talking about whether raids build community, and instead of discussing his frequent assertion that "doesn't want to raid" equals "doesn't want to participate in the community", he will try to sidetrack the discussion by demanding to know things like "Do raids build community" and "Why do you think raids exist". He also shares the typical raider blind spot about non-raid content, where he believes the game is either "PVE raids" or "solo and PuG content" (again, there are numerous quotes of this, but we're all tired of quotes, just search for PuG), and goes on about how one must either play the game for raids or be treating it as if it were solitare.
A lot of the confusion could be related the fact that he likes to use his his own definitions of words (without any explanation or acknowledgement that they're nonstandard) - from what he was saying, it's possible that he would just conser a guild group that had run instances together many times to be a PuG if they didn't schedule their particular instance run in advance. His definition of community and the fact that he believes non-raid content can't foster it combine to mean that by his definition, wow has no community at all from 1-59 even though that's when he says his guild met up and acquired most of its members. And how can you expect any kind of sensible conversation when someome seriously makes comments like: "I'm not a "raider", but according to you, because I raid, I'm a "raider". You're predjudiced."
Another rather interesting point is that despite all of his talk about how raiding builds community, from what he's said about the WOW community he doesn't actually like the community that raiding has built. For example, he believes that any guild that needs a complex accounting system like DKP is not a good guild to be in - even though the vast majority of guilds that are raiding use some DKP system for allocating loot. When I point out the kinds of things that anyone looking to raiding has seen, he says simply that I'm looking at the wrong guilds and recommends that I start my own. He says I'm some terribly antisocial guy, yet his advice to me is that I should not absolutely not socially interact with the vast majority of people running raid content.
That's really the meat of the discussion, and I'm while I'm deliberately avoiding the walls of text (and especially the walls of quotes), I've got one exception. This one exchange really sums up what the debate is like. Mike will probably claim that I'm dropping context over and over, but he won't be able to show what context I allegedly dropped, and if you're really interested (and not just reading as a dare to see how much more I write on this thread) you can scroll back up yourself and see if there's anything relevant that I didn't quote.
Back a ways:
AndOK, so the stage is set and Mike responds in the next post with:"Oh really?" and two quotes from me (I've taken out where one was double quoted and added bold to emphasize what I'm going to reference):
Now, if you're still reading along, look at the two paragraphs from me that he quoted. I don't see anywhere where I said it was difficult to find raiding guilds in general, just that it's difficult to find a certain specific subset of raidnig guilds, those that are interested in having members (whether new or old, so nothing to do with getting in) who raid on the schedule he said was appropriate for WOW raids. "It's difficult to find raid guilds that do this specific thing" is a very different thing from "It's difficult to find raid guilds".
I'd certainly never claim that it's hard to find WOW raiding guilds since I can turn up dozens of them without much effort, I even offered to find one with a raiding schedule that fits my time but not his for each one he found fitting his. Go to the official boards, go to realm forums, find a list of guilds on the server (if there's not one stickied, go to another realm), click homepage links, and you'll find more raiding guilds than you know what to do with.
Again I'll point out that nothing in the material he quoted talks about it being hard to get into a raid guild. And even if it did, at no point in the discussion have I said that I have never "TRIED" to get into a raid guild, I've only denied that I have any desire to do get into one in the present and that I wasn't trying to get into the one who's app page I quoted as an example of raid schedules.
(For anyone wondering, I "tried" to get into one by knowing some of their members, being invited, filling out their app, and accepting the /ginvite the next day, then /gquit several weeks later after experiencing the joys of raiding firsthand. Amusingly in light of his accusation of me only being in it for the loot, I left a couple of days before my 'trial period' was up and I could actually collect DKP loot, if I was really in it for the purple pixels I could have gone on one more MC run and spent myself negative before leaving.)
(snipped some irrelevant stuff)
Third time's the charm, again there is zilch in the material he quoted (or indeed, in any of what I wrote) about it being difficult to get into a raid guild - yet for no reason I can fathom, he keeps saying that I did. He even puts it into quotes like he's quoting something I've said, but anyone can do a text search and see that I didn't. Same thing with the alleged quote about "I've never tried to get into a raid guild" - it's something that I just plain never said, not a quote or paraphrase of something I've said. The closest thing I've said is that I'm not trying (note present tense) to get into a raid guild and that I have no desire (again, present tense) to get into one, but there's a big difference between now and never.
Just bear this exchange in mind if you try to have a serious discussion with him. He has no problem quoting two full paragraphs of me not talking about it being hard to get into a raid guild as proof that you were talking about it being hard to get into a raid guild! And just to show how surreal the conversaion is, he accuses me of sprouting stuff off then denying it. Expect the same thing if you try to seriously converse with him.
Speak for yourself. Personally, I'd strongly prefer that raids not be in any game at all, though I'm willing to play a game with raids as long as I can completely ignore them.
Again, speak for yourself. I am completely opposed to raiding being at all faster or in any other way a better method of obtaining gear than other methods. Raiding is a blight on MMORPGs, though I'm willing to ignore it's pollution of a game as long as there's nothing trying to force me to do it. If raiders get an advantage over nonraiders then the publishers get $0.00 from me, plain and simple.
In my experience, endgames destroy communities, not build them. Because people have to start scheduling in raids for that piece of gear over hanging out with their friends. Killing out a social part of the game for the monetary/gear value of the game, well, that detracts from the MMO experience for me.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
WoW = Hanson
When the kids grow up, they wont admit to their friends that they liked it.
Excellent point Cymdai. But I think this tends to happen more during an MMORPG's decline. It didn't get like this in UO for YEARS. Everquest either. It never had a chance to happen in SWG.
WoW is still on the way up. Eventually, it will get that way (full of botters and exploiters). But for now, I firmly believe that even the casual player can still be competative (maybe not dominant) in endgame.
"Mmmmm bop!"
How many of them have had a drug problem? All those child stars do.
Yes Mike, I expected you to ramble on about me misquoting you or taking you out of context or something. I'm just going to point out some of the absurdities in your latest rant, it's perfectly clear though that there's not going to be any sensible conversation here. Please keep on with this kind of response, it's quite amusing for me.
Here's the best bit:
Mike is so divorced from reality here that he actually complains that I'm denying statements that not only did I never make, but that I've consistently denied making! He has yet to produce a quote of me saying that I *NEVER* wanted to raid, or *NEVER* tried to join a raiding guild, because they simply don't exist. Apparently Mike's problem is that he just doesn't understand the difference between "I do not want to to that" and "I have never wanted to do that", or the difference between "I am not attempting to join one " and "I have never attempted to join one". He actually goes on to say:
Somehow, me pointing out that "I don't want to raid" is a statement about the present is me trying to cover my ass and not me pointing out something very basic about English grammar. It's just so funny reading through it.
And this little gem:
Now first off, note that I said I /gquit (which is me quitting the guild), and that me leaving a guild is not me getting kicked out of a guild, even if in Mike believes they're equivalent. This is a good example of Mike just completely making something up out of thin air, he wants it to be true so he just declares it to be so. This kind of thing is just funny, he's accurately quoting me and then going on to say that I said something that's clearly not in the text.
But to keep the amusement going, note he's triumphantly shouting that I "admitted" this and that he "broke [me] down" like this was a long-running point of discussion. Yet go back up through the thread - at no point did he or indeed anyone actually ask me any of what he supposedly broke me down into admitting; look back through the whole thread, there is no point where he asked 'were you ever in a raid guild' or 'were you ever rejected by a raid guild'. For some reason, he really believes that he 'broke me down' by never asking a single question on the topic and never even implying that he wanted to know it! In his mind it's a great vicrory that I 'admitted' something no one ever asked and that I would have 'admitted' if someome had, you know, actually asked about.
Only a little later:Notice that? At one point he's saying that since I don't want to schedule time for a game, I only have PuG and solo content. That certainly sounds like he's saying that if I were to participate in a guild group that had run instances together many times but didn't schedule a run it would count as PuG content in his eyes, as that would not require scheduling but clearly wouldn't be solo content. (Earlier I used that as a specific example) Yet just a few breaths later, he says that it's completely made up for me to think that such a thing would qualify as a PuG under his definition. I'd ask him to explain which one of his statements is true, but basic logic seems to confuse him.
I'm not even sure what to say here, he so vehement that 'raider' does not mean 'one who raids'. It's kind of like reading Kafka really, especially since he never bothers to say what the distinction is between a raider and one who raids, or between a raiding guild and a guild that raids. How in the world could a sensible conversation come from that kind of word game is far beyond me. I'd offer to leave it up to the readers to decide which one of us is making sense, but I wouldn't want to end up with a discussion about whether 'reading this thread' makes you a 'reader of this thread' or not.
Mike is so divorced from reality here that he actually complains that I'm denying statements that not only did I never make, but that I've consistently denied making! He has yet to produce a quote of me saying that I *NEVER* wanted to raid, or *NEVER* tried to join a raiding guild, because they simply don't exist.
From your post 5/19 11:25 pm:
"It's not at all like a "social event", it's like a job if anything. If I'm scheduling time to meet up with friends, I don't have to attend the exact same event with the exact same friends every 2-4 days of the week for 4-12 hours. We don't need to all show up at the same time, and also don't have to all leave at the same time."
From your post 5/20 2:29 pm:
"Oh, and speaking of ignoring valid points, what about all of the other points I made about raids being far more like a job than a social event? Especially the part about DKP systems,"
From your post 5/20 9:16 pm:
"Sure you have; I have repeatedly said that I do not want to participate in raids, raiding, or raid guilds (and from context and occasionally explicitly, that means PVE raids)."
Anti raiding guild comments like this pervade ALL your posts. Also, you've demonstrated a large amount of base ignorance about raids (the whole 4 hour thing). Say you'd never joined a raiding guild seemed a logical assumption, ESPECIALLY since, had you said in the beginning "I am a raiding guild veteran", you might have been able to put a little more weight behind your words, instead of sprouting off the same repetative raid hating crap that you can find in ANY raider vs. non-raider thread.
Saying "I used to be in a raiding guild and I hated it" sounds a lot more reasonable than "I hate raiding guilds because they ALL suck and they're ALL the same and they ALL have complex DKP systems."
So...actually what you've been doing is sprouting off unfounded steriotypes. Gotcha.
Apparently Mike's problem is that he just doesn't understand the difference between "I do not want to to that" and "I have never wanted to do that",
Word games again. I find it amazing that it took you 5 pages to drop this little bombshell into the discussion. More manufactured crap, perhaps? Whatever...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
or the difference between "I am not attempting to join one " and "I have never attempted to join one".
Blah blah blah
He actually goes on to say:
Somehow, me pointing out that "I don't want to raid" is a statement about the present
Yes. But saying " I have repeatedly said that I do not want to participate in raids, raiding, or raid guilds " has absolutely NO time context. That could apply to now, then, and forever.
is me trying to cover my ass and not me pointing out something very basic about English grammar. It's just so funny reading through it.
Heh. Heh heh. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Now first off, note that I said I /gquit (which is me quitting the guild), and that me leaving a guild is not me getting kicked out of a guild,
You know, since you're extremely reticent with facts, and and seem to like to split those fine hairs only when it servers your purpose, I'm sure you're leaving ALL KINDS of stuff out of the story. You left without ever using your hard earned DKP? That right there indicates STRONG friction between you and the guild in question.
even if in Mike believes they're equivalent.
No, but I understand your debate style enough to know that you use hair splitting and half truths liberally.
This is a good example of Mike just completely making something up out of thin air, he wants it to be true so he just declares it to be so.
No, you've already repeatedly demonstrated your willingness mislead, misquote, and generally debate dishonestly. What's the full story behind your "/gquit"? Why did you choose to not even use your DKP, which you said you had enough of to get some phat loot?
This kind of thing is just funny, he's accurately quoting me and then going on to say that I said something that's clearly not in the text.
WOW! You admit I'm "accurately quoting" you? That's more than you've done, that's for gosh darn sure.
But to keep the amusement going, note he's triumphantly shouting that I "admitted" this and that he "broke [me] down" like this was a long-running point of discussion. Yet go back up through the thread - at no point did he or indeed anyone actually ask me any of what he supposedly broke me down into admitting;
See above. All you had to do initially was say "I was in a raiding guild and I didn't like it", but you chose to wait until page 6. Why? You seem to be the type of person who throws everything including the kitchen sink in a debate. Why hold back that tidbit for so long, when it would have at least given you the impression of knowing what you're talking about?
look back through the whole thread, there is no point where he asked 'were you ever in a raid guild' or 'were you ever rejected by a raid guild'.
See quote above. The whole "I have no desire" thing, along with your general, irrational hatred AND your lack of forthrightness made it a reasonable and logical assumption.
For some reason, he really believes that he 'broke me down' by never asking a single question on the topic and never even implying that he wanted to know it!
Uh, dude. The ENTIRE thread is about the nature of raiding and raid guilds. Why they exist. You know?
In his mind it's a great vicrory that I 'admitted' something no one ever asked and that I would have 'admitted' if someome had, you know, actually asked about.
Heh. You know what you try to be good at? Righteous indignation. You're not very good at it, btw.
Only a little later:Notice that? At one point he's saying that since I don't want to schedule time for a game, I only have PuG and solo content.
Yup. Unless you say "I'll be on around 6 tomorrow, meet up with you guys then." In that case, guess what? *gasp* You've just scheduled a time to meet up with people, and it's therefore NOT a PUG.
That certainly sounds like he's saying that if I were to participate in a guild group that had run instances together many times
Where did I say many times? I NEVER said many times! QUOTE where I said many times.
Heh...sorry. Just took a page from the Pantastic Book of Debate.
I love how you base your arguments on assumptions, but when anyone else does it, you sprout off paragraph after paragraph of righteous indignation, demanding quotes and such.
There's a word for that. Begins with an 'H'......
but didn't schedule a run it would count as PuG content in his eyes, as that would not require scheduling but clearly wouldn't be solo content.
Blah blah blah. This point was a reach to start, and ended badly for you.
(Earlier I used that as a specific example) Yet just a few breaths later, he says that it's completely made up for me to think that such a thing would qualify as a PuG under his definition. I'd ask him to explain which one of his statements is true, but basic logic seems to confuse him.
Heh. Heh heh. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
I'm not even sure what to say here, he so vehement that 'raider' does not mean 'one who raids'.
So, in the real world, if I take my gun to the shooting range, I'm a "shooter", even though the term "shooter" is normally defined as the person who guns down another person. In the real world, if I see a car, I'm a "seer", even though the term "seer" is defined as one who predicts the future. In the real world, if I drink a Pepsi, I'm a "drinker", even though the term "drinker" is normally defined as one who abuses alcohol.
Gotcha.
It's kind of like reading Kafka really, especially since he never bothers to say what the distinction is between a raider and one who raids,
You never asked. A raider does nothing BUT raid, and belongs to one of these super crappy raid guilds you like so much. A person who raids primarily does other stuff..like helping guildies level alts, leveling your own alts, etc.
There.
or between a raiding guild and a guild that raids.
See above. A raiding guild is, according to you, a craptastic festival of assholes who hate each other and only want to use each other to gain DKP for uber lewtz. A raiding guild does nothing OTHER than raid....it's the entire purpose of its existance.
A guild that raids does it occasionally, and primarily does other things.
There.
By the way, actually ASKING for the definition hurts you even more, because I've just written down what anyone with an ounce of common sense knows.
How in the world could a sensible conversation come from that kind of word game is far beyond me.
Heh. Word games. You're funny.
I'd offer to leave it up to the readers to decide which one of us is making sense, but I wouldn't want to end up with a discussion about whether 'reading this thread' makes you a 'reader of this thread' or not.
Heh, if I "read" the thread, I'm a "reader". In the IT field, a "reader" is an object that retrieves data from some kind of media. Now I'm a machine!
And the absolutely HILARIOUS point of this post is, he STILL hasn't even ACKNOWLEDGED the original concept of this thread!
Why do raids exist? Why do they NOT build community.
That's ok. I think he's running out of steam. It's hard work, juggling all that double talk.
yet there were no battlegrounds until like 9 months after release into retail...
that speaks worlds about blizzard and wow.
raids are dev's way of 1- being lazy with end game and 2- being uncreative with end game.
what in wow stimulates a player economy? not crafts, there's nothing you can craft that can compete with drops end game. you lose nothing when you die. items don't decay do they? your "player economy" is all from drops.
they/blizz lament that no one does outdoor pvp. why should you? they buffed up town guards to get a bazillion extras real quick. town guards never dropped loot worth much anything, nor did random enemy npcs.
no player housing. no outposts which can be taken and held by horde or alliance. there's just no reason to attack any enemy towns ever.
think about the "community" that would be built (throughout an entire faction) by there being objectives to take? if each zone has a dozen outposts that either side could claim, but only a single guild can claim any one objective.... there's something to build a community around.
not from the (and i speak from about 9 years of MMO gaming experience most of which was as a part of a guild or clan) "hey, check the calendar for when this 8 hour borefest will start. stock up on whatever pots you'll need. make sure you bring plenty of ammo if you use it. we should get 4-6 good items tonight, so if you haven't gotten anything lately, you should get a drop tonight." that's not community. that's a group of people, like the previous poster stated, gearing up to fight the next big bad in yet another lengthy farmable borefest.
this still answers why raids don't foster any worthwhile community. but a myriad of other things can (and do in other games) foster a *realer* sense of community.
1 player economy
2 objectives ingame which provide tangible benefits to players (i.e. controlling outposts/towns)
a number of games have successfully implemented crafting systems (possibly carried out by npc henchmen instead of players), where the best items ingame are craftable, do decay and you could lose them if you die and are looted.
if it's farmable, it's easy. by definition farmable has to be easy, otherwise how are you farming it? you farm every raid area/instance.
thus it appeals to the lowest common denominator and ceases to actually be a challenge and instead is simply a timesink. you spend your time and get rewarded with nicer items for being bored for the past X amount of hours.
for a third time....
raids do not stimulate any sort of community.
which raid exactly does your guild get all giddy about and are like "yayayayayay i want to go i want to go, let's talk about it". about the time any dungeon becomes farmable, every guild i've played with, for the most part, loses interest and is just going thru the motions to finish gearing everyone up.
it doesn't give us great things to talk about.
it doesn't make us communicate more.
matter of fact, a lot less talking goes on, it's something like. *enter dungeon*. everyone ready? everyone have raid assist on? ok, primary and secondary are linked. anyone have any questions or need to make any stops we don't normally make?
then it's just a matter of "bleh bleh dropped, who wants it?"
rest of the time we're just killing the same old stuff.
versus, say we hit a battleground. lots of communication going on voice. the folks who are guarding an objective will start chit chatting until it hits the fan for someone else in the group. then a bunch of communication goes on.
again not really building a community.
now, say you're somewhere like sil. doing some of those quests out there. the ones you can 5 man or less. that's pretty easy, not hectic, not the total bore fest because you can quit at any time and we just pick someone else up to join us.
or if someone is grinding away on skilling up some tradeskills. they'll chat on voice while doing that. if you're leveling an alt, it's same old stuff, nothing hectic, nothing that requires you to be stuck for hours. less stress if you know you can quit at any time, especially if you have family, friends, and like to not neglect them.
so here's yet another example of things that help build up a community (this time within a guild) and why raiding really doesn't.
raiding in any game has never led to friendships that lasted past that game or into the real world. i've made quite a number of friends playing games online. a number of them became offline friends. not a one was a result of any sort of supposed community from boring raids. if anything, the offline ones would be the first ones to admit that the raids were a total drag and we should look for another game or maybe start leveling alts.
again, this is coming from someone with a family and friends, who plays with a lot of people who have family and friends. this i say because if you're single, or a kid/teen, you probably don't HAVE to leave all of a sudden due to pets, kids, wife, job, or whatever happens at the last minute that demands your attention.
or maybe you just play for half an hour and you're just flat out bored with the computer that day. boom, let's hit a movie, go to a restaurant, hit a club, whatever. how many people did you just totally irk in a raid by doing that?
oh you should plan ahead, you should make it a priority. as soon as i start sleeping with a game, a game starts paying my bills, or a game becomes a member of my family or friends, i'll consider that. until that time, it's NOT a job, it shall not have a place of priority in the lives of *normal* people with families, friends, and responsibilities. period. dot.
anyone that thinks raiding is a grand idea, just has too much time on their hands.
decaying items. penalties from death (such as you can lose items). these things stimulate a player-run economy. THIS builds a community. this can be a very social thing. malls are created this way. people might try to get the crafter to set up vendors at their mall as well. or provide things for their guild at a bulk rate. see how this sort of thing stimulates conversations and can easily lead into working relationships?
versus just using people to get you some nifty purple items. while being bored to tears, doing the same farming that you've done the past three months.... i'm stil at a loss to how people consider that fun.
player housing. ok, let's see how that generates community. your guild has a place to hang, with chairs, sofas, big screen tvs, lava lamps, whatever. again we have vendor malls. maybe you've got your own crib where you build your robots or house your pets... "hey man, have you seen the cool trophies i got last time we went to hookaboolock island? they're up on the walls in my den, come check it out."
versus "hey rat-sniper, you be bait for the big dragon, i'll rez ya." hey guys, we're nearing the end, it was fun, grats to everyone that got stuff on this 6 hour tour, this 6 hour tour. next week, we'll bring ginger and gilligan and we should all have the same exact gear by then~!! then we can start doing 6 hour tours in another dungeon until we're all dressed alike again~!! gooooooo team gilligan~!!"
just because someone believes they are right in their mind, doesn't make it so. just because someone keeps saying the sun is made of marshmallows, and says it 10 times a day for 50 years, doesn't make it so. just because 5 billion chinese eat a LOT of rice, that doesn't mean i should give up potatoes and bread and only have rice.
uo, first mmo, did end game right.
eq, second mmo, totally dorked end game.
two big guild leaders from eq started "advising" wow folks. all they ever knew was big huge raiding... they seem to have no creativity or imagination aside from "hey we did this in eq, we can improve it by making it an instance".
more of the same boring farmable laughably-easy content does not make a game great. it makes it easy. pretty colors makes it appealing to kids. voila, nuff said.
the next generation is taking a queue from the grandpappy of mmo's -- uo. but they're actually improving upon it. instead of open ended play with big bads here and there and GM run events every few weeks, they're making it to where the gameworld reacts to player actions. we're already seeing this in eve and shadowbane, with more to follow in both and in quite a few other games.
game doesn't need millions of subs in order to
1 survive
2 turn a tidy profit
3 have great graphics
4 have great devs
5 have original ideas, or greatly improve upon GOOD ideas
games with millions of subs seem to think
1 they don't have to listen to the fans because well, they have millions
2 their devs must be uber creative cuz the pretty colors have all the little kids playing
3 no need to do anything new or different, because they can use the pretty graphics to keep generating new buzz, and can say "hey we have millions, we must be the best"
4 you get the jist.
emo is not an excuse for bad manners, and one tracked mindedness doesn't mean that someone isn't mentally deficient. some wise person said something to that effect once.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
This is really amusing, though I doubt anyone else is bothering to read at this point.
Notice a common theme in every quote? Just like I said before, "he has yet to produce a quote of me saying that I *NEVER* wanted to raid, or *NEVER* tried to join a raiding guild, because they simply don't exist." I don't know what more to say, when challenged directly to quote something of me saying what he says I said, this is the result.
For all his vehemence about what I said, if you read this Mike actually admits that I never said what he keeps claiming I said, that it was an ASSUMPTION by him. I'm not sure how to make it any clearer, or why he's arguing the point, he admits that it was never a claim of mine, just an assumption of his.
Edited to add: Also, it is interesting that on one had he claims that it was a logical assumption that I never joined a raiding guild, but also "Wow! I friggen KNEW you'd either been rejected from a raid guild, or been kicked out of one, but I NEVER thought you'd admit it!". Apparently one thing was a logical assumption, and he also KNEW another thing that contradicted the logical assumption.
Somehow mentioning something that you should have learned in English 101 is dropping a 'bombshell'. And for more amusement:
"I do not want to.." is present tense. There is no bombshell being dropped, or wordgames going on, it's just basic English grammar, there's not really much more to say. Apparently I'm playing some kind of tricky game by making a clear statement in the present tense in English, then later pointing out that it's a statement in the present tense.
And on the topic of his definitions:
If these definitions of Mike's are really so common, why has no one else been using them even on this thread, including Mike? According to the definition above, no one in the game has ever been beaten by a raider in PVP, and no one has ever had a BG rolled by a raiding guild! According to what he wrote, you'll never encounter a raider or raiding guild in PVP, because by definition "A raider does nothing BUT raid" and "A raiding guild does nothing OTHER than raid". I suppose we could take a survey on this board and see if anyone else uses the terms like Mike does, but I think anyone with an ounce of common sense already knows the answer to that one.
Amusingly, Mike doesn't actually use these definitions himself. Earlier he said "By the way, WHY exactly do you resent raids and raiders so much, if it weren't for the uber leet gear they keep pwning you in PvP with?" By the definition he gave above and berated my for not knowing, a raider would never pwn me in PvP because "A raider does nothing BUT raid,". I'm sure Mike will try to weasel out of it, but it's still amusing to point out. Somehow I don't feel bad about not using tricky definitions of terms when they're not even the definitions that Mike uses.
talking about. It's the only mechanic currently in WoW that allows us
to do things at the guild level.
this is blizzard's fault.
no player housing.
pvp is a pve grind.
no benefits from "outdoor" pvp.
outdoor raiding like the big bad in sil - yup, haven't seen anything come from "community"s standpoint from that junk. big gaggle of folks, kill the big bad, thanks everyone, buhbye.
they've done nothing but take the lazy way out. there's a million ways they could generate real community. they don't. they consciously choose not to.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
autopilot, the more we can chat about non-raid stuff. You know...one
guildy's wife just had a baby, another just got engaged, another just
got a new job. Then there's the BS...Saturday's "heated" discussion
centered around what was going to happen to Fat Vito on the Sopranos.
ok wait. at what point in the game can you NOT do all of those? raiding doesn't encourage that. that's the talk you do while doing ANYTHING in wow. except, instead of it being boring, you might put the talk on hold for a bit cuz you just found something new and cool.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
For all his vehemence about what I said, if you read this Mike actually admits that I never said what he keeps claiming I said, that it was an ASSUMPTION by him.
See what I say about assuming later on. See, apparently, it's ok for YOU to make assumptions, but anyone else does it, they're full of crap.
I'm not sure how to make it any clearer, or why he's arguing the point, he admits that it was never a claim of mine, just an assumption of his.
A perfectly valid assumption that you never bothered correcting until page 6. Have I made the claim since? Nope.
Somehow mentioning something that you should have learned in English 101 is dropping a 'bombshell'.
Now, that was just an insult for insult's sake. It doesn't even make any sense. Unless...you do know what the phrase "dropping a bombshell" means, don't you?
I also like how for some unfathomable reason he split my statement into 2 parts, responded to one part with something that could apply to both, then put a pointless 'blah blah blah' on the second.
Because your point is weak. You know it....that's why you're so vehemently trying to make it.
*you* Makes every statement in the world indicating how much you hate raids and raiding guilds.
*me* Repeatedly talks about how you tried and failed to get into a raid guild.
*you* Don't bother correcting the assumption until late into the discussion.
Give it up. You could have corrected the assumption at ANY TIME YOU WANTED TO. You chose not to. Therefore, you trying to take me to task over it is pointless, petty, and stupid. You're only doing it because you have NOTHING left to fall back on.
And for more amusement:
"I do not want to.." is present tense. There is no bombshell being dropped, or wordgames going on, it's just basic English grammar, there's not really much more to say. Apparently I'm playing some kind of tricky game by making a clear statement in the present tense in English, then later pointing out that it's a statement in the present tense.
Wow. Kind of like Bill Clinton and the "define 'is'" thing. Give it up. If you fail to correct an assumption, that assumption is perfectly valid until it is corrected.
And on the topic of his definitions:
If these definitions of Mike's are really so common, why has no one else been using them even on this thread, including Mike?
Because nobody else has pursued your petty line of debate. If you read the few non-you/me posts, they're actually DISCUSSING the idea put forward in the OP, something you've studiously decided NOT to do.
And if you read the WoW forums, the differences are well known and commonly used. No, I WON'T provide links. Look for them yourself.
Basically, at this point, you really are just scraping bottom of the barrel.
According to the definition above, no one in the game has ever been beaten by a raider in PVP, and no one has ever had a BG rolled by a raiding guild!
Wow. Just....wow. Pathetic. Truely pathetic. The above definitions don't even come friggen CLOSE to saying anything even REMOTELY like that. You CAN'T be this dense. At this point, I'm assuming you're merely trolling.
According to what he wrote, you'll never encounter a raider or raiding guild in PVP, because by definition "A raider does nothing BUT raid"
Fine. Replace "nothing but" with "primarily". Split more hairs. It really is all you have left. Your "logical" arguments have all been taken care of...now all you have left is symantics. I'm sure you'll quote this line and have a hoot writing 5 or 6 paragraphs...all pointless, off topic, and silly.
and "A raiding guild does nothing OTHER than raid". I suppose we could take a survey on this board and see if anyone else uses the terms like Mike does, but I think anyone with an ounce of common sense already knows the answer to that one.
Yes. I'm right, you're wrong.
You've GOT to be trolling now.
Amusingly, Mike doesn't actually use these definitions himself. Earlier he said "By the way, WHY exactly do you resent raids and raiders so much, if it weren't for the uber leet gear they keep pwning you in PvP with?"
Yes, that was my question, which you never answered.
By the definition he gave above and berated my for not knowing,
Really? Saying "you never asked" is berating? Heh. You're sensative.
a raider would never pwn me in PvP because "A raider does nothing BUT raid,".
Dude, look at what you're writing! For the love of God, have some dignity! You've just based an ENTIRE post on the word "but".
I'm sure Mike will try to weasel out of it,
Nope. Just kind of saddened that you're reduced to this.
but it's still amusing to point out. Somehow I don't feel bad about not using tricky definitions of terms when they're not even the definitions that Mike uses.
Heh. Tricky.
Seriously, why are you even bothering to still post? Are you really THAT stubborn? I've cracked your debate style, which is to ultimately to veer the discussion AWAY from any point that you either can't address, won't address, or lose the argument on. You decend into progressively less and less relevent material, until you produce....this post. A rant on "but".
You HAVE to be trolling, but that's ok. You're really not upsetting me. Just kind of making me scratch me head.
If you'd like to discuss the topic of the thread, please do so. But really...your posts are at this point completely ridiculous. I mean, before I actually had to put a modicrum of effort into refuting your stuff. Now...it's just too damned easy.
EDIT: Wierd double post thing
I've said repeatedly, other games do it other ways. The fact that raiding is the only way to build community on a large scale IS Blizzard's fault.
And I clearly stated, I'm not adverse to introducing new ways to do the same thing.
If you have 40 guildy's spread out among 8 instances, those 8 groups simply do not interact at the same level that 1 group does. They're each doing their own thing, and usually it requires more of their attention than raiding does.
I've said repeatedly, other games do it other ways. The fact that raiding is the only way to build community on a large scale IS Blizzard's fault.
And I clearly stated, I'm not adverse to introducing new ways to do the same thing.
Yeah, I pretty much said the same thing to him, but he won't listen.
LOL, this is a very impressive turn by Mike - if anyone's been following the conversation I'm sure they're amused. Mike repeatedly talked about how he claimed that I "never" wanted to get into a raid guild, and that's what I kept arguing with and what I've been pointing out that he is just making up. The only time he said the bit about "tried and failed" was after the post where I said that I had been in a raid guild. Mike actually posted stuff like "So...wait...you haven't even bothered trying to get into one, and you've already given up, because none of them will want you? Interesting," as an incorrect assumption, which I did correct.
I corrected many incorrect assumptions on his part in my reply to the posts where he made them. If you're assuming something in your head and not writing it down on in your post, I'm not telepathic so I can't know what your assumption is. Anyone can go back up, and see where the first 'tried and failed' post from Mike is. And I still find the fact that Mike believes there is some kind of word game in pointing out that a statement is in the present tense hilarious.
And back to the old Mike Definitions:
OK, so in one breath he says that what he wrote doesn't even come friggen CLOSE to saying anything REMOTELY like that, but...
In the very next breath he admits that his definition not one came friggen CLOSE to saying anything like that, but that he'd actually have to change the wording to make it not say that.
So, he says that I'm misusing a term, I say that I'm not, that I'm using it in the normal English sense, when pressed for a definition for the term I'm allegedly misuing he provides one and says that anyone with common sense knows it, then when I point out that his definition is not what anyone is actually using, he accuses me of splitting hairs! Somehow, his claiming that I was inaccurate in using 'raider' instead of saying 'one who raids' or using 'raiding guild' instead of 'guild that raids' was not hair-splitting at all, not pointless symantics, and perfectly on topic, but my pointing out that what he claims are the correct definitions are wrong is just a nit-picking waste of time. I wait with bated breath to see what he comes up with next.
Fascinating isn't it? Mike's the one who whined and cried about how it was unfair that I called him a raider instead of 'one who raids', and that I refered to a guild that raids as a raiding guild, yet somehow he believes I'm the one descending into irrelevant material.
The irony of Mike thinking he's "refuting" my stuff is great, I can't stop responding just to see what he'll make up next.
The OP is typical of the raider mentality. The very idea that raid or die is the only type of endgame that anyone in theri right mind can expect from a MMO, the idea that acomplishing anything meaningful at endgame should take 39 strangers' help, the rediculous sence of entitlement (the laughable premise that raiders "deserve" the best loot" etc.)
Well, just because that's all WoW has to offer does not mean that there is nothing else to offer.
You're right, the WoW forums are clogged with posts complaining about this issue, and it is dividing the WoW community. But there's good reason for that. See, WoW was designed as a casual-friendly game. It was marketed as a casual friendly game. Read the box. Not casual friendly for 59 levels, and then a mind numbing grindfest in instances with packs of lemming-like strangers for the rest of the game.
So are people upset that the game has turned into an astonishingly poor copy of EQ's raid endgame? Well, of course. Plenty of people left EQ for World of Grindcraft. I'm sure that if they told us that Tigole was going to become the head dev, hire all his raider friends from his guild, and copy old tired and dead ideas from EQ for the next two years, we wouldn't have bought it. We coulda stayed playing EQ, which had a much better endgame raiding situation already. The playerbase, as a whole, was lied to. Repeatedly. Over and over. And the lies don't stop from Blizzard either.
We apologize for the server/realms instabilty, we had no idea the game would be this popular. remember that one? From last year, or last week...
You mean I can't login for days because you don't know how many copies of the game you've made, or how many you sold??? But you're still making and selling them, aren't you?
I hope they get cancer, lying weasels.
So let the raiders have thier rants about how they deserve everything and anyone who doesn't raid should quit. It dosen't matter one bit. Enjoy your "entitlement". It's good for about another 6 months or so.
With all the games coming out, by this time next year, the only people still playing the box-of-lies that is WoW will be the teleport-hacking goldfarmers, and boldfaced-liar dev's, still creating content to re-live thier glory days from a decade ago in EQ, and maybe a few diehard raiders, stroking thier e-peens telling each other about how they deserve everything. The only reason the consolidation of the servers hasn't happened in WoW up to now is the absence of any other true MMO to jump ship to. Thankfully, by this Christmas, that will change.
The rest of the gaming community is moving on. And Burning Crusade won't save them either.
And to suggest that there is any sembalance to community, or any in-game mechanics in WoW that promotes community, espically raiding, is so rediculous that I almost fell off my chair laughing, and had to wipe away the tears of laughter before typing this post. WoW has no community at all, and never has. Unless you count Chuck Norris jokes as being a community-builder.
Those that know, don't need to be told.
Those that don't know, won't listen.
As far as being casual friendly WoW was in some respects compared to most mmo's when it was in early beta and such....
What I'll make up next? How about this...I'm done. It's pointless. You have proven, to me, and to anybody even looking in this direction, one thing....you hate raids and raiding guilds.
Congratulations.
You've also proven, in your own mind, that I'm a "raider" who belongs to a "raiding guild". Again...congratulations. Of course, I, my guildies, and anyone who's acually reading these posts know that simply isn't true...but you've convinced yourself.
I'm done with you. Your debate style is extremely hypocritical and more than a little dishonest. You attempt to use symantics and sentence structure, instead of logic and example, to prove your points, and that's always the callsign of the bad debater.
And, because it's so pathetically easy, you can just keep doing it forever. There's no point in replying to you anymore, because you'll take an "and", and turn it into 5 paragraphs of pointelss drivel. I reply to that, you'll use a "with" I write in the response, and turn that into 6 more paragraphs of pointless drivel. Etc., etc.
You want to continue discussing? Fine. Why do raids exist? Why do they NOT foster community.
And since you won't answer that, I won't even waste my time reading (or responding to) any more of your posts.
Buh bye now.