Originally posted by Arkdawg The only problem with a system like Forsaken is it still appeals to a smaller audience of players, who are looking to play for the PvP aspect. That system is still going to alianate a large part of the Casual gamers, who might want to participate in PvP, but they also find entertainment in gettting their toon a certain look or visual style that they are not going to want to have to go collect the same equipment to obtain everytime they get killed in a PvP area. This will lead to more people being leary or refusing to participate in the RvR which the game is designed around. The Key for Mythic is making the RvR accessable to those players, while still making it challenging enough of an engagement for the more hardcore gamer or PvP enthusiast. I think that full Looting just doesn't allow enough flexability to maintain that balance.
Yeah, I agree with this totally. When you're creating a game around an established IP, you've got a responsibility to gear it toward the largest playerbase possible. Full-loot wouldn't work in WAR since it's more of a niche thing for PvPers.
I was just saying that what are now labelled "hardcore" games can still be pretty fun. They are definitely only for those that like to PvP primarily, but I didn't ever see full-looting as some kind of penalty. In fact, I think that losing exp on death is worse than losing your items lol.
WAR will be a cool game just like it is, and I can't wait for release, but I also wish someone would come out with a good full-loot game that doesn't promote griefing. It seems like even mentioning the phrase "full-loot" or god forbid "permadeath" totally freaks people out, but I think its just because people haven't seen a game that really makes it work in a fun way.
You tell people that not every pker and ffa roxor is the same pain in the .... And yet i see 96% of you trolling and flaming. But some people really seem to think that only pk and ffa makes a good mmorpg, i feel sorry for them.
Well i guess we have to play WAR without you guys, I'm sooooo sorry :-(.
Well, obviously I am largely outnumbered by fanbois here, so my trolling just can't hold it's ground. Darn! You fanbois make it sound like this game won't have anything like WoW, not a single aspect of this will be similar to WoW, hello?!?!?!?
It's not like WoW is the root of all evil, money is root of all evil, and WoW was made to make money, first, and as a game second. War will be just like they make it, according to reactions on questions and opinions about this game that aren't 100% (+/- 5%) on the same page with the devs, WAR will have its share of the profit.
I would like to say I'm sorry I offendet you, but it's litle hard for me to apologize for stuff I didn't do, if anyone, I insulted the devs, because I question their views, and again it wasn't even an insult.
I'm just trying out DAoC now, to see what's Mythic all about.
About comparing everything to WoW, well it's easyer because everyone played it.
Oh yea right, the evil money. And game companies are teh 3v!l too for making money. They are making games for people, people that want fun. And as it turns out most people don't want pk and ffa. That's why we have different games with different genres, if you want to make a car simulation you don't put planes in it. So stop trying to turn every game that is designed for no pk/ffa to turn into a pk/ffa game.
"and WoW was made to make money, first, and as a game second."
I wouldn't worry about that, mythic and gw isn't blizzard. They've already made a lot of unique stuff, and they are doing it for us and the game (For the publisher it might be all about the money, but not for the devs).
Just go play vanguard, roma () or aoc, nobody is going to miss you.
pk, ffa games /= more mature community You are the prove!
Originally posted by Size-Twelve Full-loot wouldn't work in WAR since it's more of a niche thing for PvPers.
The Warhammer the tabletop game is obviously a PVP game (there is no computer involved, you always play against another player), yet there is nothing like full-loot in it. If you win a game, you certainly don't get to take the other guy's miniatures and keep them, or inflict any kind of penalty on the other person other than losing the fight.
PVP is about Player versus Player, there's no need for 'school bully' mechanics where you get to take the other guy's lunch money. Real PvPers play for the enjoyment of going up against another person and don't need the motivation of messing up someone else's day to make it fun, it's only the people who play to grief that want to take other people's stuff.
but I also wish someone would come out with a good full-loot game that doesn't promote griefing. It seems like even mentioning the phrase "full-loot" or god forbid "permadeath" totally freaks people out, but I think its just because people haven't seen a game that really makes it work in a fun way.
And I think it's just because full-loot and permadeath are mechanics that are against the game working in a fun way, people haven't seen a game that makes it work in a fun way because there isn't such a thing. Extremely harsh death penalties discourage good PVP encounters, because people will (just like real life) seek to avoid close encounters, but closely matched encounters are what appeal to the real PVPer (that's why games like tabletop warhammer attempt to start both players in a roughly equal position).
If you really think that it's possible for someone to make a full-loot and permadeath game that would be fun, describe how the game would be set up, don't just berate others for 'freaking out' for not seeing whatever vision it is that you have locked away.
As I always point out, if you think permadeath is actually fun you can mod it into any game you play. Just go to the account management screen when you die and delete your character - BAM you've just gotten all the fun of permadeath for yourself without inflicting it on others. Funny, isn't it, that none of the permadeath advocates actually seem to want it in-game.
Pantastic, lol, no one said a game HAD to have full-loot in order to be considered PvP. I'm not sure what your point is here. Chess, and football are PvP too, and you don't take anyone's stuff in those games either. Full-looting is not a real life game mechanic in most situations, I'm not sure if you are confused about this?
You seem to be taking offense to the mere mention that PvP full-looting can be fun. Why? I'm neither a school-bully, nor a griefer, and I enjoyed it in the games I played. Are you offended that others enjoyed something you did not, or what is the problem? I already described a game that I played that had a fun full-loot mechanic. It worked for THAT game, because it was designed a little differently than others. They didn't have a big budget, and couldn't roll out content like an EQ franchise, so they had to extend the life of the game in other ways. Full-looting was one of them.
I never berated anyone for anything btw. If you want to know how a perma-death game can be fun, it's due to a different design than what we are seeing nowadays. In Forsaken Lands there were multiple race class combos to try. The level grind isn't much of a grind at all, but more a way to learn your new character's abilities. Eventually after 3 months or more of full on PvP, you get tired of your character anyway, and want to try out one of the other 25 classes. By the time your character was ready for perma-death, you too, were ready to reroll anyway. It worked. That's all I can say.
Would I institute perma-death myself, in a game like WoW, or EQII or some other new release where content gets added by the month? Where it takes me 3 months or more to hit level cap? Where character advancement never ends because of gear? That would be stupid, and I would only gimp myself that way. However, if there was a point in a game where characters were on even footing, and the majority of the game was spent fighting at that point. If new content was not added only at level cap, but every level spread below it, yeah perma-death works..
Originally posted by Size-Twelve Pantastic, lol, no one said a game HAD to have full-loot in order to be considered PvP.
Did you read the opening post? "Is there going to be open pvp with item looting? If there isn't then this will be no different than carebear land". And you yourself said "Full-loot wouldn't work in WAR since it's more of a niche thing for PvPers," but full-loot is only for a small subset of PvPers, not all. What you said clearly implies that those of us that don't want full loot are not PvPers, and I called you on it. If you say "X is for PvPers" it's very clear that you're implying "people who don't want X are not PvPers", which is simply BS and a very common attitude on these threads. If that's not what you meant then great, you seem to be saying that, but don't pull that "are you offended..." nonesense.
Your description of the full-looting game doesn't sound appealing to me at all, and, most critically, you didn't explain how the full-looting ADDED to the fun of the game, what I saw was an explanation of how the game was fun IN SPITE OF full looting. When you get down to it, why on earth would I want to spend 15 minutes recovering from losing a single less-than-five-minutes fight? And then there's the effect on people's behavior; if I'm going to have to spend longer than the fight recovering from the fight if I lose, why engage in anything resembling a fair fight, I can get buddies, or ambush someone, or hit a weak guy instead. And if I think that way, other people will think that way, and you end up with a game where people shy away from good PVP fights like they do in EVE.
And the perma-death mechanic that you described would only reduce the fun involved in the game, I can't see any way that it would increase it. You can always choose to reroll on your own, so it provides no benefit to anyone who got bored with their main and was ready to reroll at or before the permadeath point. But if you're not ready to reroll, too bad, you're either permadead or desperately trying to avoid dying from there on. There is simply no way that I would pay any money towards a game with this mechanic, I don't want my characters deleted out from under me. I'll play until I'm ready to reroll, then if I want to I'll pull my old character out of storage. I don't care what content they add to what part of the game, I do NOT want my exisiting character deleted, if I want to experience low-level content then I'll make a new (and probably different) character for that.
It's risk versus reward. Why are some people satisfied on the Ferris Wheel, while others have to jump out of airplanes? In a game with full-loot, I just feel like the fights are more of a rush. I don't like losing either way, but when I lose in an unfair fight, a 2 on 1, and the other guys destroy everything I was wearing right in front of me. All I can think is VENDETTA. I might even write their names down on a hitlist, and spend the rest of the night killing them and the rest of their clan. On the other hand if I just died, and then 30 seconds later I rezzed and was fully recovered, who really cares?
To respond to the rest of the stuff, you engage in fights because if you didn't, someone is going to engage you anyway. That's how it was in FL. You could either fight, or get beat. It's not like EvE with this giagantic gameworld where you might not run into players that often. Unless you buried yourself in a cave in FL, you WERE going to run across people who would kill you. Beyond that, the death penalty wasn't harsh enough that you were scared to leave the city, it was just harsh enough to make winning and losing a little spicier.
Permadeath I like because it was more realistic in that you made your character, you played him out, earned a rep, got your kills, became a hero or a nobody, and then you died. It was cyclical. You knew you weren't going to live forever, so you wanted to make a name for yourself while you could. All I can say is that it was a different type of game. Each character was like your own little story, you played him and did what you could, then down the road that story was over, and you started a new one. Again all I can say is that it worked for that game, and it can be fun.
You want full loot and meanignfull death check out Roma Victor...it comes out next month, will be cheap to play and it will give you something to do besides WoW til WAR comes out. Thats my plan anyway.
It's not about 2 vs 1 fights in WAR, it's about RvR and huge/epic battles. They want those battles to last "forever", if people would have to get new gear every time they die then.....battlefields would be pretty empty.
But that's like you and me said, a game has to be designed for pk/ffa. And WAR is not designed for it, though it will be a lot of fun, and I'm 100% sure that PvP/RvR is going to be great.
Btw, i was always thrilled in PvP or when i got ganked (yes i did wrote names down) even without pk/ffa.
Originally posted by Size-Twelve It's risk versus reward. Why are some people satisfied on the Ferris Wheel, while others have to jump out of airplanes?
Ahh yes, if you don't want the rules Size-Twelve does you're just some kid on the Ferris Wheel, but if you agree with him then you're a rocking skydiver! That's the problem with your crowd, you can't discuss the topic in a remotely rational way, you have to keep insinuating that people who don't want your game rules are inferior.
In a game with full-loot, I just feel like the fights are more of a rush.
And the fact that you spend longer recovering from the fight than engaging in it is an extreme anti-rush. That's the whole problem with your full-loot crowd, your best and rather weak justification for wanting full loot is that it gives you more of a rush in a fight; you just can't enjoy the actual playing of a game. Yet somehow, you believe your inability to enjoy gaming for gaming's sake makes you superior, that you're the cool skydivers while people who can actually enjoy gameplay are just kids on the ferris wheel.
Try dropping the whole bit where you insult everyone who doesn't share your computer game preferences and you might get a better reception. No one is going to be convinced by you alternately insulting them for not enjoying being punished for playing a game and declaring that the game is made more fun by permadeath and/or full loot.
Originally posted by Pantastic Ahh yes, if you don't want the rules Size-Twelve does you're just some kid on the Ferris Wheel, but if you agree with him then you're a rocking skydiver! That's the problem with your crowd, you can't discuss the topic in a remotely rational way, you have to keep insinuating that people who don't want your game rules are inferior.
Oh comon, if you realy think that way, you are inferior, and the funiest thing about it is, you don't see it! This is not only an insult, it's a cry for reason because Size12 has done everything to show understanding and aproval for WAR RVR politics and game mechanics, but he just thinks that if game was diferent, he would like to see some other aspects highlighted.
Can't you just understand that WAR will be pure unadulterated fun, similar like WOW was, but some people get tired of pure fun realy fast and want something more chalenging.
IF YOU ARE SO SURE ABOUT YOURSELF AND YOUR STURDYNES YOU WOULDN'T TAKE THOSE VIEWS THAT ARE DIFERENT FROM YOURS SO PERSONAL AND THREATENING.
I'm done with you Pantastic. Here again you've shown your true colors as nothing more than a perma-troll. Are you really this simple minded? Read what I'm writing for fucks sake, and stop reading into it what you WANT to hear. I'm not insulting anyone. It's, in fact, YOU who are insulting.
You've generalized everyone who likes full-loot as a school yard bully, or a ganker or whatever else. Again, YOUR words. Where in my posts do I result to name calling? I simply tried to defend the point that SOME people in SOME games find full-loot rules fun. Yet, you want to argue against this?
I played along for this long because I enjoy the discussion of full-loot PvP, but now you're just resorting to personal attacks like you do everytime someone has an opposing view. For some reason you can't comprehend that others might enjoy something you do not? I have no idea. Whatever the reason, the argument ends here. I don't need to prove that PvP full-loot can be fun. Why? Because I enjoyed it. Others have enjoyed it, and UO was at least moderately successful in it's time. Your argument is groundless. .
Yeeeaaa riiiggghhttt, pk/ffa is the only interesting thing that keeps people playing the game. But somehow Daoc managed/s to survive, and the population isn't bad at all.
Get into your head, WAR = No pk, ffa and equipment looting.
Its funny!!! Ive been playing mmos for over a decade now. Played most of them. The funnest game uo my first mmo. Why well it was all new to me . Full loot works in a player / skill centric game like uo. Items play a minor role and are easily obtained. Yes role players would dress up and try to look spiffy and yes theives would come and steal there pants just to laugh at them.
On topic pvp full loot adds more fun imo but wont work with war itencentric game plan.
Its funny how these non pvp loot players are 10x more agressive on the forums than they ever are in game. Such a waste they could be such fun combatants if they focuses on tactics instead of rants and flames on anyone mentioning full loot in any pvp game.
Originally posted by Size-Twelve It's risk versus reward. Why are some people satisfied on the Ferris Wheel, while others have to jump out of airplanes?
Ahh yes, if you don't want the rules Size-Twelve does you're just some kid on the Ferris Wheel, but if you agree with him then you're a rocking skydiver! That's the problem with your crowd, you can't discuss the topic in a remotely rational way, you have to keep insinuating that people who don't want your game rules are inferior.
In a game with full-loot, I just feel like the fights are more of a rush.
And the fact that you spend longer recovering from the fight than engaging in it is an extreme anti-rush. That's the whole problem with your full-loot crowd, your best and rather weak justification for wanting full loot is that it gives you more of a rush in a fight; you just can't enjoy the actual playing of a game. Yet somehow, you believe your inability to enjoy gaming for gaming's sake makes you superior, that you're the cool skydivers while people who can actually enjoy gameplay are just kids on the ferris wheel.
Try dropping the whole bit where you insult everyone who doesn't share your computer game preferences and you might get a better reception. No one is going to be convinced by you alternately insulting them for not enjoying being punished for playing a game and declaring that the game is made more fun by permadeath and/or full loot.
Dude brush up on you reading comprehension. The Ferris wheel statement is an Analogy. As in some people like one thing while others like it a bit more extreme. In this case the death penalty. Size-Twelve has never insinuated that anyone was inferior because they don't like full-loot, your just picking at BS to try to argue over, because you obviously do not like full-loot. He never insulted anyone either, he was simply stating his preference and why/how he thought it added to HIS gaming experince is a particular setting, just because you don't feel it would add to your gaming experience doesn't mean he is insulting anyone who doesn't feel the way he does. You're reading insults into everything, when it wasn't intended. And by saying Full-loot appeals to a subset of PVPers he was right, it does. A subset as in a small portion within a larger whole group of PVPers. He never said or insinuated that if you don't like full loot your not a PvPer. Slow down and read the post's twice man, your throwing venom at people for no reason.
My reading comprehension is fine. While he's being more subtle about it than the typical "full-loot" advocate, it's all right there in plain language. It is quite clearly insulting to say that full-loot is for PVPers (clear implication that no full loot = not PVPer), to make comparisons where non-PVPer does a kind of silly kids thing and PVPer does a cool adult thing, or to say that anyone who doesn't like full loot is freaking out and holds their position purely from ignorance.
Sonofseth is a more typical full-loot type, he claims that WAR won't be a 'challenging' game because of full-loot, then goes on to whine about me calling out the full-loot crowd for their condesending insults. Notice that he has neglected all along to mention anything positive about full loot, other than to vaguley claim that it offers a "challenge" (though by challenge he just seems to mean 'takes a bunch of time') and that WAR won't.
This is a consistent pattern that I've seen on these threads; the people who want full-loot can't just talk about how full-loot would improve the game, they have to make insults (blatant or subtle), claim that people who don't like it are just ignorant, claim that it's not a Real Game without full loot, etc.
Originally posted by Pantastic My reading comprehension is fine. While he's being more subtle about it than the typical "full-loot" advocate, it's all right there in plain language. It is quite clearly insulting to say that full-loot is for PVPers (clear implication that no full loot = not PVPer), to make comparisons where non-PVPer does a kind of silly kids thing and PVPer does a cool adult thing, or to say that anyone who doesn't like full loot is freaking out and holds their position purely from ignorance. Sonofseth is a more typical full-loot type, he claims that WAR won't be a 'challenging' game because of full-loot, then goes on to whine about me calling out the full-loot crowd for their condesending insults. Notice that he has neglected all along to mention anything positive about full loot, other than to vaguley claim that it offers a "challenge" (though by challenge he just seems to mean 'takes a bunch of time') and that WAR won't. This is a consistent pattern that I've seen on these threads; the people who want full-loot can't just talk about how full-loot would improve the game, they have to make insults (blatant or subtle), claim that people who don't like it are just ignorant, claim that it's not a Real Game without full loot, etc.
No what Twelve did was give an example of a game where full loot was implemented and he enjoyed it and it didn't totally gimp the gameplay. He never implicated that if you don't like full-loot your not a PvPer, your freaking reading that into it. Go back and start with his first post and his response to those who commented on it. And full-loot is for PVPers because it certainly isnt for Non-PvPers, but he never said that if you didn't enjoy that sort of PvP than you aren't a PvPer, thats what you took from it. Just simmer down and take what he wrote at face value, not everyone has some underlying slight that they are trying to slip past you. I personally am not a fan of Full-loot, it worked ok in uo, because the equipment wasn't the major deciding factor in you pvp skill so it wasn't a major deal if you lost your mace and shield. But it did add a sense of urgency and a bit of tension, because it made you think if you really wanted to take out that sweet new (insert item type) because you just got it and you might lose it. For some people that makes for a more enjoyable experiance, for others it doesn't. From reading the posts you have basically done to Twelve everything your accusing him of doing by generalizing his statements and finding a meaning in them that suits your argument. SonofSeth you are correct, he is trying to stir the pot and get people fired up. Which he did manage to do.
I think there are a number of misconceptions here, or atleast a muddying of ideas.
Reading the entire thread it seems there are two, distinct and seperate, concepts being discussed.
FFA-PvP and Full-Loot PvP (which are not mutually inclusive)
For FFA-PvP, Mythic has already tried this experiment and it failed...miserably. The former DAoC players here will remember the 'Dreds (Modred and Andred). Two "alternate rule" servers in DAoC that were FFA-PvP. When released they boomed with players...for about 2 months. Andred was finally merged with Mordred in an attempt to have a playable population, now Modred is a ghost town of a server. I highly doubt Mythic will go down that road again.
As for Full-Loot PvP, the argument For seems to be one of personal risk. That may be fine and well in a FFA-PvP (see above) game, but not in an RvR game. In WAR, as it was in DAoC, the objective is to work together to achieve RvR victories (and rewards). Individual deaths are meaningless, as realm victories are what is important. This is a game about realms, not individuals. How many ex-DAoCers remember the "good old days" of loosing your 20% (realm wide) damage bonus because you lost all your relics (assuming you had all 3 of one type here) in one fell swoop? How many remember people all over dropping what they were doing at the hint of a relic raid? Suiciding out of dungeons to go defend? Guild/Personal anymosities getting set aside for the protection of your relics? These are the things that Mythic is shooting for, not personal kills/rewards. It's all about the realm. Finally, to get people out there fighting, they want it to be as "personally" painless as possible. You *want* people RvRing. The rewards/penalties are realm wide, not personal.
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WHY TAKE OTHERS SOULS WHEN YOU ONLY NEED ONE???
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature
Good sentence there. One of the many reasons I don't play WoW.
I was just saying that what are now labelled "hardcore" games can still be pretty fun. They are definitely only for those that like to PvP primarily, but I didn't ever see full-looting as some kind of penalty. In fact, I think that losing exp on death is worse than losing your items lol.
WAR will be a cool game just like it is, and I can't wait for release, but I also wish someone would come out with a good full-loot game that doesn't promote griefing. It seems like even mentioning the phrase "full-loot" or god forbid "permadeath" totally freaks people out, but I think its just because people haven't seen a game that really makes it work in a fun way.
Son of a...oops almost did it.
You tell people that not every pker and ffa roxor is the same pain in the .... And yet i see 96% of you trolling and flaming.
But some people really seem to think that only pk and ffa makes a good mmorpg, i feel sorry for them.
Well i guess we have to play WAR without you guys, I'm sooooo sorry :-(.
Well, obviously I am largely outnumbered by fanbois here, so my trolling just can't hold it's ground. Darn! You fanbois make it sound like this game won't have anything like WoW, not a single aspect of this will be similar to WoW, hello?!?!?!?
It's not like WoW is the root of all evil, money is root of all evil, and WoW was made to make money, first, and as a game second. War will be just like they make it, according to reactions on questions and opinions about this game that aren't 100% (+/- 5%) on the same page with the devs, WAR will have its share of the profit.
I would like to say I'm sorry I offendet you, but it's litle hard for me to apologize for stuff I didn't do, if anyone, I insulted the devs, because I question their views, and again it wasn't even an insult.
I'm just trying out DAoC now, to see what's Mythic all about.
About comparing everything to WoW, well it's easyer because everyone played it.
Oh yea right, the evil money. And game companies are teh 3v!l too for making money.
They are making games for people, people that want fun. And as it turns out most people don't want pk and ffa. That's why we have different games with different genres, if you want to make a car simulation you don't put planes in it. So stop trying to turn every game that is designed for no pk/ffa to turn into a pk/ffa game.
"and WoW was made to make money, first, and as a game second."
I wouldn't worry about that, mythic and gw isn't blizzard. They've already made a lot of unique stuff, and they are doing it for us and the game (For the publisher it might be all about the money, but not for the devs).
Just go play vanguard, roma (
) or aoc, nobody is going to miss you.
pk, ffa games /= more mature community You are the prove!
I actualy thought about playing Vanguard, but after reading about it and posting on the forums for a while, I saw it wasn't to my liking.
I'm not trying to make all games FFA PVP, hahaha, I'm just trying to make one into FFA PVP.
Thank you Lumstar for telling me I can go, and I won't be missed, thank you, now I can finally have a clear conscience, hahaha.
This game will be fun, but so is WoW! Thank you and goodbye!
Yea it's a shame, a game that makes fun. Seriously, who are these people that are playing games for fun? Losers...
Good thing that pk and ffa is the only thing that can make a good mmorpg, goodbye
The Warhammer the tabletop game is obviously a PVP game (there is no computer involved, you always play against another player), yet there is nothing like full-loot in it. If you win a game, you certainly don't get to take the other guy's miniatures and keep them, or inflict any kind of penalty on the other person other than losing the fight.
PVP is about Player versus Player, there's no need for 'school bully' mechanics where you get to take the other guy's lunch money. Real PvPers play for the enjoyment of going up against another person and don't need the motivation of messing up someone else's day to make it fun, it's only the people who play to grief that want to take other people's stuff.
And I think it's just because full-loot and permadeath are mechanics that are against the game working in a fun way, people haven't seen a game that makes it work in a fun way because there isn't such a thing. Extremely harsh death penalties discourage good PVP encounters, because people will (just like real life) seek to avoid close encounters, but closely matched encounters are what appeal to the real PVPer (that's why games like tabletop warhammer attempt to start both players in a roughly equal position).
If you really think that it's possible for someone to make a full-loot and permadeath game that would be fun, describe how the game would be set up, don't just berate others for 'freaking out' for not seeing whatever vision it is that you have locked away.
As I always point out, if you think permadeath is actually fun you can mod it into any game you play. Just go to the account management screen when you die and delete your character - BAM you've just gotten all the fun of permadeath for yourself without inflicting it on others. Funny, isn't it, that none of the permadeath advocates actually seem to want it in-game.
Pantastic, lol, no one said a game HAD to have full-loot in order to be considered PvP. I'm not sure what your point is here. Chess, and football are PvP too, and you don't take anyone's stuff in those games either. Full-looting is not a real life game mechanic in most situations, I'm not sure if you are confused about this?
You seem to be taking offense to the mere mention that PvP full-looting can be fun. Why? I'm neither a school-bully, nor a griefer, and I enjoyed it in the games I played. Are you offended that others enjoyed something you did not, or what is the problem? I already described a game that I played that had a fun full-loot mechanic. It worked for THAT game, because it was designed a little differently than others. They didn't have a big budget, and couldn't roll out content like an EQ franchise, so they had to extend the life of the game in other ways. Full-looting was one of them.
I never berated anyone for anything btw. If you want to know how a perma-death game can be fun, it's due to a different design than what we are seeing nowadays. In Forsaken Lands there were multiple race class combos to try. The level grind isn't much of a grind at all, but more a way to learn your new character's abilities. Eventually after 3 months or more of full on PvP, you get tired of your character anyway, and want to try out one of the other 25 classes. By the time your character was ready for perma-death, you too, were ready to reroll anyway. It worked. That's all I can say.
Would I institute perma-death myself, in a game like WoW, or EQII or some other new release where content gets added by the month? Where it takes me 3 months or more to hit level cap? Where character advancement never ends because of gear? That would be stupid, and I would only gimp myself that way. However, if there was a point in a game where characters were on even footing, and the majority of the game was spent fighting at that point. If new content was not added only at level cap, but every level spread below it, yeah perma-death works..
Did you read the opening post? "Is there going to be open pvp with item looting? If there isn't then this will be no different than carebear land". And you yourself said "Full-loot wouldn't work in WAR since it's more of a niche thing for PvPers," but full-loot is only for a small subset of PvPers, not all. What you said clearly implies that those of us that don't want full loot are not PvPers, and I called you on it. If you say "X is for PvPers" it's very clear that you're implying "people who don't want X are not PvPers", which is simply BS and a very common attitude on these threads. If that's not what you meant then great, you seem to be saying that, but don't pull that "are you offended..." nonesense.
Your description of the full-looting game doesn't sound appealing to me at all, and, most critically, you didn't explain how the full-looting ADDED to the fun of the game, what I saw was an explanation of how the game was fun IN SPITE OF full looting. When you get down to it, why on earth would I want to spend 15 minutes recovering from losing a single less-than-five-minutes fight? And then there's the effect on people's behavior; if I'm going to have to spend longer than the fight recovering from the fight if I lose, why engage in anything resembling a fair fight, I can get buddies, or ambush someone, or hit a weak guy instead. And if I think that way, other people will think that way, and you end up with a game where people shy away from good PVP fights like they do in EVE.
And the perma-death mechanic that you described would only reduce the fun involved in the game, I can't see any way that it would increase it. You can always choose to reroll on your own, so it provides no benefit to anyone who got bored with their main and was ready to reroll at or before the permadeath point. But if you're not ready to reroll, too bad, you're either permadead or desperately trying to avoid dying from there on. There is simply no way that I would pay any money towards a game with this mechanic, I don't want my characters deleted out from under me. I'll play until I'm ready to reroll, then if I want to I'll pull my old character out of storage. I don't care what content they add to what part of the game, I do NOT want my exisiting character deleted, if I want to experience low-level content then I'll make a new (and probably different) character for that.
To respond to the rest of the stuff, you engage in fights because if you didn't, someone is going to engage you anyway. That's how it was in FL. You could either fight, or get beat. It's not like EvE with this giagantic gameworld where you might not run into players that often. Unless you buried yourself in a cave in FL, you WERE going to run across people who would kill you. Beyond that, the death penalty wasn't harsh enough that you were scared to leave the city, it was just harsh enough to make winning and losing a little spicier.
Permadeath I like because it was more realistic in that you made your character, you played him out, earned a rep, got your kills, became a hero or a nobody, and then you died. It was cyclical. You knew you weren't going to live forever, so you wanted to make a name for yourself while you could. All I can say is that it was a different type of game. Each character was like your own little story, you played him and did what you could, then down the road that story was over, and you started a new one. Again all I can say is that it worked for that game, and it can be fun.
@Size-Twelve
It's not about 2 vs 1 fights in WAR, it's about RvR and huge/epic battles. They want those battles to last "forever", if people would have to get new gear every time they die then.....battlefields would be pretty empty.
But that's like you and me said, a game has to be designed for pk/ffa. And WAR is not designed for it, though it will be a lot of fun, and I'm 100% sure that PvP/RvR is going to be great.
Btw, i was always thrilled in PvP or when i got ganked (yes i did wrote names down) even without pk/ffa.
"and it can be fun"
I doubt it jim
Ahh yes, if you don't want the rules Size-Twelve does you're just some kid on the Ferris Wheel, but if you agree with him then you're a rocking skydiver! That's the problem with your crowd, you can't discuss the topic in a remotely rational way, you have to keep insinuating that people who don't want your game rules are inferior.
And the fact that you spend longer recovering from the fight than engaging in it is an extreme anti-rush. That's the whole problem with your full-loot crowd, your best and rather weak justification for wanting full loot is that it gives you more of a rush in a fight; you just can't enjoy the actual playing of a game. Yet somehow, you believe your inability to enjoy gaming for gaming's sake makes you superior, that you're the cool skydivers while people who can actually enjoy gameplay are just kids on the ferris wheel.
Try dropping the whole bit where you insult everyone who doesn't share your computer game preferences and you might get a better reception. No one is going to be convinced by you alternately insulting them for not enjoying being punished for playing a game and declaring that the game is made more fun by permadeath and/or full loot.
Oh comon, if you realy think that way, you are inferior, and the funiest thing about it is, you don't see it! This is not only an insult, it's a cry for reason because Size12 has done everything to show understanding and aproval for WAR RVR politics and game mechanics, but he just thinks that if game was diferent, he would like to see some other aspects highlighted.
Can't you just understand that WAR will be pure unadulterated fun, similar like WOW was, but some people get tired of pure fun realy fast and want something more chalenging.
IF YOU ARE SO SURE ABOUT YOURSELF AND YOUR STURDYNES YOU WOULDN'T TAKE THOSE VIEWS THAT ARE DIFERENT FROM YOURS SO PERSONAL AND THREATENING.
I'm done with you Pantastic. Here again you've shown your true colors as nothing more than a perma-troll. Are you really this simple minded? Read what I'm writing for fucks sake, and stop reading into it what you WANT to hear. I'm not insulting anyone. It's, in fact, YOU who are insulting.
You've generalized everyone who likes full-loot as a school yard bully, or a ganker or whatever else. Again, YOUR words. Where in my posts do I result to name calling? I simply tried to defend the point that SOME people in SOME games find full-loot rules fun. Yet, you want to argue against this?
I played along for this long because I enjoy the discussion of full-loot PvP, but now you're just resorting to personal attacks like you do everytime someone has an opposing view. For some reason you can't comprehend that others might enjoy something you do not? I have no idea. Whatever the reason, the argument ends here. I don't need to prove that PvP full-loot can be fun. Why? Because I enjoyed it. Others have enjoyed it, and UO was at least moderately successful in it's time. Your argument is groundless.
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@SonofSeth
Yeeeaaa riiiggghhttt, pk/ffa is the only interesting thing that keeps people playing the game.
But somehow Daoc managed/s to survive, and the population isn't bad at all.
Get into your head, WAR = No pk, ffa and equipment looting.
On topic pvp full loot adds more fun imo but wont work with war itencentric game plan.
Its funny how these non pvp loot players are 10x more agressive on the forums than they ever are in game. Such a waste they could be such fun combatants if they focuses on tactics instead of rants and flames on anyone mentioning full loot in any pvp game.
Orky Name Generator, only at www.bigchoppaz.com
Ahh yes, if you don't want the rules Size-Twelve does you're just some kid on the Ferris Wheel, but if you agree with him then you're a rocking skydiver! That's the problem with your crowd, you can't discuss the topic in a remotely rational way, you have to keep insinuating that people who don't want your game rules are inferior.
And the fact that you spend longer recovering from the fight than engaging in it is an extreme anti-rush. That's the whole problem with your full-loot crowd, your best and rather weak justification for wanting full loot is that it gives you more of a rush in a fight; you just can't enjoy the actual playing of a game. Yet somehow, you believe your inability to enjoy gaming for gaming's sake makes you superior, that you're the cool skydivers while people who can actually enjoy gameplay are just kids on the ferris wheel.
Try dropping the whole bit where you insult everyone who doesn't share your computer game preferences and you might get a better reception. No one is going to be convinced by you alternately insulting them for not enjoying being punished for playing a game and declaring that the game is made more fun by permadeath and/or full loot.
Dude brush up on you reading comprehension. The Ferris wheel statement is an Analogy. As in some people like one thing while others like it a bit more extreme. In this case the death penalty. Size-Twelve has never insinuated that anyone was inferior because they don't like full-loot, your just picking at BS to try to argue over, because you obviously do not like full-loot. He never insulted anyone either, he was simply stating his preference and why/how he thought it added to HIS gaming experince is a particular setting, just because you don't feel it would add to your gaming experience doesn't mean he is insulting anyone who doesn't feel the way he does. You're reading insults into everything, when it wasn't intended. And by saying Full-loot appeals to a subset of PVPers he was right, it does. A subset as in a small portion within a larger whole group of PVPers. He never said or insinuated that if you don't like full loot your not a PvPer. Slow down and read the post's twice man, your throwing venom at people for no reason.
My reading comprehension is fine. While he's being more subtle about it than the typical "full-loot" advocate, it's all right there in plain language. It is quite clearly insulting to say that full-loot is for PVPers (clear implication that no full loot = not PVPer), to make comparisons where non-PVPer does a kind of silly kids thing and PVPer does a cool adult thing, or to say that anyone who doesn't like full loot is freaking out and holds their position purely from ignorance.
Sonofseth is a more typical full-loot type, he claims that WAR won't be a 'challenging' game because of full-loot, then goes on to whine about me calling out the full-loot crowd for their condesending insults. Notice that he has neglected all along to mention anything positive about full loot, other than to vaguley claim that it offers a "challenge" (though by challenge he just seems to mean 'takes a bunch of time') and that WAR won't.
This is a consistent pattern that I've seen on these threads; the people who want full-loot can't just talk about how full-loot would improve the game, they have to make insults (blatant or subtle), claim that people who don't like it are just ignorant, claim that it's not a Real Game without full loot, etc.
I think there are a number of misconceptions here, or atleast a muddying of ideas.
Reading the entire thread it seems there are two, distinct and seperate, concepts being discussed.
FFA-PvP and Full-Loot PvP (which are not mutually inclusive)
For FFA-PvP, Mythic has already tried this experiment and it failed...miserably. The former DAoC players here will remember the 'Dreds (Modred and Andred). Two "alternate rule" servers in DAoC that were FFA-PvP. When released they boomed with players...for about 2 months. Andred was finally merged with Mordred in an attempt to have a playable population, now Modred is a ghost town of a server. I highly doubt Mythic will go down that road again.
As for Full-Loot PvP, the argument For seems to be one of personal risk. That may be fine and well in a FFA-PvP (see above) game, but not in an RvR game. In WAR, as it was in DAoC, the objective is to work together to achieve RvR victories (and rewards). Individual deaths are meaningless, as realm victories are what is important. This is a game about realms, not individuals. How many ex-DAoCers remember the "good old days" of loosing your 20% (realm wide) damage bonus because you lost all your relics (assuming you had all 3 of one type here) in one fell swoop? How many remember people all over dropping what they were doing at the hint of a relic raid? Suiciding out of dungeons to go defend? Guild/Personal anymosities getting set aside for the protection of your relics? These are the things that Mythic is shooting for, not personal kills/rewards. It's all about the realm. Finally, to get people out there fighting, they want it to be as "personally" painless as possible. You *want* people RvRing. The rewards/penalties are realm wide, not personal.
This from a beta till present DAoCer