Originally posted by Wakizashi PRE-CU was not the best. Not the best for people who were no good at the game. Its not for any other reason listed previously. It is only because they were no good at that particular version of the game.
So, using that theory, I could say people don't like the NGE because they're not good at it?
That is correct Obraik. Case in point. I was no good at the CU. For instance, the day it went live, I couldn't move because my armor was not wearable at that time and my inventory was full. I wasn't skilled enough to delete all of my necessary items to be able to move again. Thus I cancelled right there. I make no bones about it. I was probably the worst CU player of all time. Or at least tied with about 50K other players.
--Do you all remember that going for mind shots was king but not all professons had mind shots? --Do you remember the fencers spaming dizzy/knockdown (or was it change posture? or sweep? sorry, it's been awhile) and watching helpless as you flopped down repeatedly never to get up again? --The poison dots that would kill in a few ticks? --The uber-loot rifles that would strafeshot everyone in the field dead? --The diseases that ended your gameplay until you found a doc that could heal you? --The absolute lack of content in the game? --The bugs!!!! OMG!!! THE BUGS! --The overpowered jedi that made a "master" in his/her combat profession look like a thug holding a sharp stick the wrong way? --And lastly, the players on your friends lists getting smaller even before the CU came out? Don't get me wrong it was a lot of fun but it was far from perfect and it could not continue the way it was forever. I think that SOE/LAs cure was worse than the disease, so we look back fondly on the disease. [Admittedly, I was a dot whore and a Dizzy/kd fencer. I had a doc/musician buff bot and I had a (non-ebay) Jedi. With my Rifle/ranger I could and did hunt for hours in Rancor valley with no armor and only food buffs (just for personal pride as a hunter!)- with my merchant i had a fairly good business of selling Gurk hide, harrower bones and albatross feathers - in addition to normal hide, meat and bone - I had millions and millions of credits, and the best armor/food/weapons/tapes credits could buy- there was not a day that went by that i didn't play for at least 4 hours.]
Even thought I think 5 or 6 of those points were utter bullshot, Pre-CU did have a serious lack of content. Something that SHOULD have been rectified.
NOTHING made my friends list clear out like the CU or the nge. Loke a fart in an elevator for the CU, then a nuke in an elevator.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Also the playerbase had a big hand in it... I mean hey there has been whining about SWG from day one, infact most of the playerbase on the boards loves whining about almost anything from what I've seen. If I'm a Dev, and I'm looking on the boards and all I see is my playerbase screaming about everything... Hey I'm going to think something is wrong with the game! And really if I'm a Dev do you really think my mind is going to be changed when seeing a post of "Pre-CU FYI!!!!"
the rest of your post, i can understand and maybe agree with, but this part is just not right. Every game has whiners on the forums, you could make the most perfect game in the universe, and people would whine about it. Look at Wow, the most polished, complete, successful mmo and their forums are filled with whining.
The job of a dev is to sift through the complaints and decide wich are valid and which are not. Developers are supposed to understand their game, have a vision for it, and only implement things that meet that vision. If swg was doomed because of all the whining, then it was the developers who failed to do their job, you cant blame it on the players.
yes i remember all those things, and i miss them terribly. sounds like your a carebear and perfect for the NGE. imho, whiners like you killed the greatest and most complex mmo ever created.
The pre-CU environment was great in concept, just sucked in execution. I wonder what SWG would've been if SOE/LA focused on the core product than dealing with the jedi issues.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by LilT Originally posted by MikeMB
Also the playerbase had a big hand in it... I mean hey there has been whining about SWG from day one, infact most of the playerbase on the boards loves whining about almost anything from what I've seen. If I'm a Dev, and I'm looking on the boards and all I see is my playerbase screaming about everything... Hey I'm going to think something is wrong with the game! And really if I'm a Dev do you really think my mind is going to be changed when seeing a post of "Pre-CU FYI!!!!"
the rest of your post, i can understand and maybe agree with, but this part is just not right. Every game has whiners on the forums, you could make the most perfect game in the universe, and people would whine about it. Look at Wow, the most polished, complete, successful mmo and their forums are filled with whining.
The job of a dev is to sift through the complaints and decide wich are valid and which are not. Developers are supposed to understand their game, have a vision for it, and only implement things that meet that vision. If swg was doomed because of all the whining, then it was the developers who failed to do their job, you cant blame it on the players.
Actually what mike said is how I remember it to. People whined so much the devs started making knee jerk reactions and the game started it's downward spiral. Nerf after nerf and so on. It basically turned the game into a mining/crafting simulator because everything else was borked. All I ever remember seeing on the forums in the beginning was people complain. Some complaints had merit, other didn't. What killed this game is the devs listening too damn much to the players early on.
Originally posted by Wickersham It occurs to me that the original pre-CU game was not as great as I remember - I think that in light of the poor attempts by SOE/LA to fix the game we have put pre-CU upon a pedestal where it doesn't belong. First, let me say that I am not a fan of the CU, or the NGE, or SOE, or LA for that matter (4 accounts cancelled)
I'm not going to reply to all of your bulleted list...nor did I read this entire thread.
Here is the deal with Pre-CU.
The CONCEPT was there for a GREAT game. All SOE needed to do was read the stickied threads in the profession forums, implement the great ideas that were in there and do a balance pass.
If they had done that, and added content on a regular basis, I believe SWG would have settled into a state of constant growth, just like EVE except at a much more substantial pace.
But as we all know, you can't do that when you are busy rewriting the entire game twice over for the past 3 years.
Originally posted by qotsa Originally posted by LilT Originally posted by MikeMB
Also the playerbase had a big hand in it... I mean hey there has been whining about SWG from day one, infact most of the playerbase on the boards loves whining about almost anything from what I've seen. If I'm a Dev, and I'm looking on the boards and all I see is my playerbase screaming about everything... Hey I'm going to think something is wrong with the game! And really if I'm a Dev do you really think my mind is going to be changed when seeing a post of "Pre-CU FYI!!!!"
the rest of your post, i can understand and maybe agree with, but this part is just not right. Every game has whiners on the forums, you could make the most perfect game in the universe, and people would whine about it. Look at Wow, the most polished, complete, successful mmo and their forums are filled with whining.
The job of a dev is to sift through the complaints and decide wich are valid and which are not. Developers are supposed to understand their game, have a vision for it, and only implement things that meet that vision. If swg was doomed because of all the whining, then it was the developers who failed to do their job, you cant blame it on the players.
Actually what mike said is how I remember it to. People whined so much the devs started making knee jerk reactions and the game started it's downward spiral. Nerf after nerf and so on. It basically turned the game into a mining/crafting simulator because everything else was borked. All I ever remember seeing on the forums in the beginning was people complain. Some complaints had merit, other didn't. What killed this game is the devs listening too damn much to the players early on.
How does this negate LilT's point? The devs failed because they listened to they whiners and ignored those that were posting constructive helpful ideas (and there were plenty of those). This still makes it the devs fault because it was still their decision.
I know that it wasn't THAT great, but it was pretty good and full of potential. If they had improved upon it, fixed it and built around it, it would've been great. Instead, SOE/LA decided to take a mulligan, gut it and give us something different that is neither/nor.
SOE knows what you like... You don't! And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Woah, let's get one thing straight here. Listening to the players is a GOOD thing. However, making stupid design decisions is a BAD thing.
The comparison between WoW and SWG is hollow, because while both games have a legion of boardwarrior whiners, WoW is significantly more polished with an excellent design strategy in mind. SWG, on the other hand, has been one giant hack after the next, all the way from PvP nerfs to Holocron Jedi to the village. *Three* modular revamps have yet to fully address all (or even most) of the design flaws eminent in SWG.
The players didn't torpedo SWG necessarily, it was horrific design flaws throughout the history of the game that led to its decline.
The only thing SWG has ever been good for, unfortunately, is for SOE to run a prototype for EQ2 and charge for it.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Originally posted by Wickersham It occurs to me that the original pre-CU game was not as great as I remember - I think that in light of the poor attempts by SOE/LA to fix the game we have put pre-CU upon a pedestal where it doesn't belong. First, let me say that I am not a fan of the CU, or the NGE, or SOE, or LA for that matter (4 accounts cancelled) A few things for perpective to those of you who don't remember (i'm sure if you thought about it many of you could come up with more): --Do you all remember that going for mind shots was king but not all professons had mind shots? yes i do, it was something the original combat revamp was going to fix. Make mind healable with stims and problem solved --Do you remember the fencers spaming dizzy/knockdown (or was it change posture? or sweep? sorry, it's been awhile) and watching helpless as you flopped down repeatedly never to get up again? Again, original revamp was going to fix this by putting timers on attacks so they couldnt be spammed. --The poison dots that would kill in a few ticks? agree, those were overpowered --The uber-loot rifles that would strafeshot everyone in the field dead? Rifleman was overpowered even without those exceptional / legendary rifles being looted. If you recall, rifleman and CH got "adjusted" during the initial phases of the combat revamp. Devs posted that some professions (rifleman) would seem overpowered and some weak (CH) but after the revamp was complete they would balance out. Of course the problem was they stopped revamping professions and concentrated on one major overhaul (cu). However during that 1 year we waited, rifleman remained overpowered. --The diseases that ended your gameplay until you found a doc that could heal you? I rather enjoyed diseases. It made the game feel more dangerous and immersive to me. One really had to be careful on places like Endor cause those dang mantigrue reapers would sometimes disease the heck out of you. --The absolute lack of content in the game? we made our own content and SWG had the tools in-game to help with that. And we did get new stuff every few months for a while there...corvette, dwb, warren, geo cave..then it all stopped once they started to work full-time on the cu. I also rather enjoyed the hidden quests in-game. And some are still so unknown to most. My nephew made 40 million in 3 days selling stormtrooper sergeant chest plates from a quest i showed him on dath. The NGE kiddies are clueless about this quest because they arent led to it. He made several more millions selling ancient broken lightsabers as well lol. --The bugs!!!! OMG!!! THE BUGS! agree, the bugs made me quit a few times when i lost stuff like my entire house with vendor inside. And SOE customer service sux when it came to helping fix the issue --The overpowered jedi that made a "master" in his/her combat profession look like a thug holding a sharp stick the wrong way? Jedi should be more powerful. It took at least 6 months through the village to obtain it. Compared to a BH/CM who could grind their template over a weekend and yet could give a jedi a run for their money. Bringing back saber tef and permadeath would have made jedi less appealing and therefore less of them around to upset the balance of the GCW I for one never understood the whole mentality of everyone must be balanced. I had no trouble playing a pistoleer / ranger even though a defense stacker would wipe me out in 3 seconds. I think it was the pvp whiners on forums that really fouled the game up. First they started to complain the imperials with at-st were too strong so SOE nerfed it. Dumb mistake, imps with at-st SHOULD be stronger than you. Then they nerfed the heck out of CH because once again pvp whiners complained. They complained so much calling the game pokemon wars that SOE nerfed CH even more. More complained about BH and their headshot attack (i think it was called eyeshot) and again SOE nerfed it. SOE should have never ever listened to these idiot pvpers. --And lastly, the players on your friends lists getting smaller even before the CU came out? It was slowly bleeding players. Most of the folks I knew who played stuck around because we all agreed the game had so much potential. I think in the end they started to realize that potential would never be fufilled. To me thats the difference between the NGE and before. The game despite all the bugs and issues had amazing potential. The NGE took all of that potential away.
What was great about SWG was that you were ale to role play living in Star Wars. That aside from the actual game itself, well the game itself was not very good in the first place, there were and still are as many problems and broken systems with this game as there was when it first launched 3 years ago. Before any of the CU, people wre complaining as loudly as they are now about the game play of this game, when the first CU people were complaining about the game play as loudly as they are now about the NGE, and here now with the NGE we have what you have today. All in all the game itself could have been great, but it shoots blanks and it didnt happen, maybe it will with SWG2. This game was dying a slow death after the first year of release due to the fact that the game did not live up to what was promised and what was described, and it still has not.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
Pre CU had issues. I thought Post-CU was better in most ways, worse in a couple. But I was willing to take 2 steps forward if it meant only 1 step back.
NGE, on the other hand, is about 1 step forward (story arcs) and 10 steps back. I mean, c'mon... NGE has brought only one really cool thing to SWG: Story arc quests (which are actually pretty good). Other than that the entire game is crap. They kinda-sorta-wanna-be fps system is terrible. The change from a skill based to a PURE level based system is wrong-headed and the elimination of 3 professions that were very popular was a gaffe of astaunding proportions as well.
Then add in the fact that the storyline dies at 30 (did they fix that yet???) and you can't get XP missions unless you buy an expansion. Errr what's up with that? Have they added the level 30 to 90 content to the rest of the game yet? Or is it still just ROTW and TOOW?
Then add in the fact that not only is it a hard locked level system you also have no control over what skills you get at each level. Every few levels you get X skill and Y ability. It's the same for all players of that class, regardless of what they would PREFER.
Why don't I like SWG?
Because, quite simply, it is not the game I bought anymore. Pre-Cu and Post CU were both true to the game I purchased. NGE, however, is a completely different game in a style I detest. I don't enjoy the gameplay. I don't enjoy the level based system (which f's up PvP as well by the way). They even managed to make the graphics look horrible in the process with the lighting changes they made and doubling the speed made everything look robotic and silly as well.
I'd love a CU server (more than a pre-cu server actually) but I'd take a pre-CU server over NGE any day of the week, including sunday. NGE is crap, imo.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
I agree that Pre-CU wasn't a huge sucess which is why it won "coaster of the year" from PGGamer but it was the best incarnation of SWG. I think the biggest problem with SWG is the potential it had and the devs could never really rein that in. In other words they couldn't make up their minds about a single concise "vision" of the game. I also they think were too quick to scrap everything and start over (CU and then NGE).
There were some theoretically simple solutions to the problems realized in Pre-CU. I say theoretically because none of us can be sure how easily the fixes would have been to code. I get the feeling SWG code is just a hodge-podge of modules duct taped together.
I do feel that the CU was a step in the right direction to a point, I dont think it should have been released when it was, more time was needed, and I think it introduced some very unneccesary elements like Character Levels amoung other things. I really do think doc buffs were a major blow to the community. I like the idea but the implementation was way over the top. Buffs should've been around 500 points max, not 1800 or whatever they were. Enough to make it worth while, but not give you the power to solo Rancors and Krayts.
In all the part I miss the most about PreCU was the community. I remember going with groups out to Fort Tusken and hunting Krayts and it was hard and dangerous and FUN. I remember trying to convince BH's not to use their LLC while hunting because they soaked up most of the groups XP when they did. Camps, cantina's, hospitals, all of that I miss.
========== SWG - 1st Gen MBH (Closed) EVE (Closed) WoW (61 Orc Hunter - Blackwing Lair) GuildWars (Boring...)
Yeah pre-CU had some problems for PVP...but for PVE it was a lot more fun then post NGE. Pre-CU we had more player made content like hunting contracts so the crafters would get the best resources and the hunters had something to do. It was those interdependancies between the classes that made the game truely great.
Originally posted by xPaladin Woah, let's get one thing straight here. Listening to the players is a GOOD thing. However, making stupid design decisions is a BAD thing.
While I do agree that listening to players is a good thing, there are limits to that as well. I worked as a CSR in the insurance industry (specifically auto and fire insurance). There are customers I had to deal with that were upset over their insurance premiums. If I had listened to complaints and acted upon their demands I would be facing lawsuits or even jail time. If you insist, I can provide examples, but I don't want to hijack this thread further :P
Simple point is that a business should listen to their consumers, but the choice of which to listen to still falls upon the business. SOE made a mistake, IMO, by listening to the wrong set of consumers. I hope that the next SW MMORPG that comes out doesn't make the same mistakes.
All of the problems with pre-cu were easily fixable. Except maybe for the bugs which still exist in the NGE.
As far as Jedi go:
What they should have done with Jedi is make it so that instead of permadeath you get a 48 hour death or something. That would keep the numbers of Jedi stayed down. They could remain an alpha class and could still be influential in the GCW but not dominate it.
But pre-cu was an awsome awsome game. I played an absurd amount of hours and had a lot of damn fun. The NGE is just a total abomination. I tried it over and over and tried to like it. It sucks. It sucks bad.
What would the game have been like if SOE hadn't wasted so much time and resources on the CU and NGE due to their erroneous philosophy and understanding of human nature? We can only imagine.
Originally posted by KenshuAni Originally posted by xPaladin Woah, let's get one thing straight here. Listening to the players is a GOOD thing. However, making stupid design decisions is a BAD thing.
While I do agree that listening to players is a good thing, there are limits to that as well. I worked as a CSR in the insurance industry (specifically auto and fire insurance). There are customers I had to deal with that were upset over their insurance premiums. If I had listened to complaints and acted upon their demands I would be facing lawsuits or even jail time. If you insist, I can provide examples, but I don't want to hijack this thread further :P
Simple point is that a business should listen to their consumers, but the choice of which to listen to still falls upon the business. SOE made a mistake, IMO, by listening to the wrong set of consumers. I hope that the next SW MMORPG that comes out doesn't make the same mistakes.
Actually.. they didn't listen to their customers. They listened to their exit surveys and focus groups much more.
SO in a nutshell, they listened to their NON-customers. Bird in the hand V.S. Bushbirds. Classic case.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Pre-cu was the best game platform out there for role players and pvpers all mixed into one.
The unballance could have been fixed by tweeking the numbers in the already-existing Pre-CU platform so that 80% block wasn't 80%.... mind shot didnt kill so much mind... Dots didnt do so much damage as fast... etc... Only the numbers in the equational mechanics needed to be changed.
Instead they completely revamped the game and destroyed what we liked to bring in what they liked or wanted.... meaning the managememnt and developers.
In came the CU (Combat Upgrade). It sucked, but not so bad that it couldn't be played though a great number left because it was a very bad change because it made and adult game a kiddy game... it became easy.
Closer to the P3 release and the retarded PC packaged as console for the masses.
Next complete platform revamp and overlay was called the NGE (New Game Enhancement).
The Combat Upgrade was not an upgrade, it was a downgrade that made lag twice as bad and even I had to install another gig of memory to play in it.
The New Game Enhancement was not a new game nor an enhancement of any kind. It was once again a blatant regression of the game that removed even more of the elements that formed the community and stratagy that the customers loved about Star Wars Galaxies.
Every time there is a major change, SOE bills the change as something the customers ask for and want, something new, an "enhancement" or "upgrade" that always becomes the complete opposite.
This is why people are angry. The game has been tarnished, raped, trampled, and spit on by the very people who should be its protectors and caretakers. For that reason, the customer base no longer trusts SOE (Sont Online Entertainment) or LAE (Lucas Arts Entertainment).
Until SOE and LAE see their customers as more then just sheep with wallets, this will continue as a problem I believe.
"SWG was a world, now it's just a game" -adamrk-
"When the game was good, you didn't have to ask where the population was, because it was everywhere. When the game was good you didn't have to ask which server had population, because they all did. When the game was good you didn't have to beg friends to give it a try, because they were already playing. " - Salty Pete
Originally posted by WickershamPVP didn't interest me, so that didn't really affect me
--Do you all remember that going for mind shots was king but not all professons had mind shots? PVP didn't interest me, so that didn't really affect me --Do you remember the fencers spaming dizzy/knockdown (or was it change posture? or sweep? sorry, it's been awhile) and watching helpless as you flopped down repeatedly never to get up again? PVP didn't interest me, so that didn't really affect me --The poison dots that would kill in a few ticks?PVP didn't interest me, so that didn't really affect me --The uber-loot rifles that would strafeshot everyone in the field dead? PVP didn't interest me, so that didn't really affect me --The diseases that ended your gameplay until you found a doc that could heal you? That was a great part of the game that made doctors a very important profession
--The absolute lack of content in the game? yeah, that was a barren aspect of the game
--The bugs!!!! OMG!!! THE BUGS! lol, there were more bugs than mobs
--The overpowered jedi that made a "master" in his/her combat profession look like a thug holding a sharp stick the wrong way? no jedi can be overpowered in my view. They're... jedi
--And lastly, the players on your friends lists getting smaller even before the CU came out? yep, I blame the armor/buffs combo for that.
Don't get me wrong it was a lot of fun but it was far from perfect and it could not continue the way it was forever. yes, but it was a lot closer than as is right now.
2) A Holocron in game help system, that was more right than it was wrong.
3) Big worlds where I had a 1001 productive things I could do between POI A and POI B. We didn't need instant travel, because it was fun just to get to the mission points.
4) Good items and gear that was available in quantity and cheap from real players, without having to camp spawns like a tool, or pay some lootmonger ungodly amounts of credits.
5) Being able to have things to do that mattered to more than my personal ego, without having to even fire a shot.
6) Realism in blaster sounds, effects, animations, and equipment properly displayed on the players. None of this magic halo crap, and armor that is worn, yet not seen as worn on the character.
7) Having so many fun things to see and do in between 10 minute starport waits, I'd even miss the shuttle. Having such fun times in the cantina, I'd even stay for hours, rather than feel like a tool.
8) Being able to craft when I want to craft, entertain when I want to entertain, explore when I want to explore, fight when I want to fight, all on the same character.
9) Having enough stability within the rules that I could spend more time playing than digging through the forums, wondering what has been nerfed, FOTMed, broke, fixed, or a waste of time.
10) An easy interface, with intuitive commands using a detailed and rich language, with all locomotion and combat controlled by the mouse.
That's what I want, and what I had. Its too much of a hassle for me to play the thing today, and to stay logged on. Too hardcore for me, and too complicated and unclear.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
That is correct Obraik. Case in point. I was no good at the CU. For instance, the day it went live, I couldn't move because my armor was not wearable at that time and my inventory was full. I wasn't skilled enough to delete all of my necessary items to be able to move again. Thus I cancelled right there. I make no bones about it. I was probably the worst CU player of all time. Or at least tied with about 50K other players.
NOTHING made my friends list clear out like the CU or the nge. Loke a fart in an elevator for the CU, then a nuke in an elevator.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
i never minded mind pool attackers, dmg stackers, dots or anything..
BUT, true some ppl did and soe fixed em.. but never put it in real
the rest of your post, i can understand and maybe agree with, but this part is just not right. Every game has whiners on the forums, you could make the most perfect game in the universe, and people would whine about it. Look at Wow, the most polished, complete, successful mmo and their forums are filled with whining.
The job of a dev is to sift through the complaints and decide wich are valid and which are not. Developers are supposed to understand their game, have a vision for it, and only implement things that meet that vision. If swg was doomed because of all the whining, then it was the developers who failed to do their job, you cant blame it on the players.
For the Horde!
SWG ADDICT...clean since the NGE
The pre-CU environment was great in concept, just sucked in execution. I wonder what SWG would've been if SOE/LA focused on the core product than dealing with the jedi issues.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
the rest of your post, i can understand and maybe agree with, but this part is just not right. Every game has whiners on the forums, you could make the most perfect game in the universe, and people would whine about it. Look at Wow, the most polished, complete, successful mmo and their forums are filled with whining.
The job of a dev is to sift through the complaints and decide wich are valid and which are not. Developers are supposed to understand their game, have a vision for it, and only implement things that meet that vision. If swg was doomed because of all the whining, then it was the developers who failed to do their job, you cant blame it on the players.
Actually what mike said is how I remember it to. People whined so much the devs started making knee jerk reactions and the game started it's downward spiral. Nerf after nerf and so on. It basically turned the game into a mining/crafting simulator because everything else was borked. All I ever remember seeing on the forums in the beginning was people complain. Some complaints had merit, other didn't. What killed this game is the devs listening too damn much to the players early on.
I'm not going to reply to all of your bulleted list...nor did I read this entire thread.
Here is the deal with Pre-CU.
The CONCEPT was there for a GREAT game. All SOE needed to do was read the stickied threads in the profession forums, implement the great ideas that were in there and do a balance pass.
If they had done that, and added content on a regular basis, I believe SWG would have settled into a state of constant growth, just like EVE except at a much more substantial pace.
But as we all know, you can't do that when you are busy rewriting the entire game twice over for the past 3 years.
the rest of your post, i can understand and maybe agree with, but this part is just not right. Every game has whiners on the forums, you could make the most perfect game in the universe, and people would whine about it. Look at Wow, the most polished, complete, successful mmo and their forums are filled with whining.
The job of a dev is to sift through the complaints and decide wich are valid and which are not. Developers are supposed to understand their game, have a vision for it, and only implement things that meet that vision. If swg was doomed because of all the whining, then it was the developers who failed to do their job, you cant blame it on the players.
Actually what mike said is how I remember it to. People whined so much the devs started making knee jerk reactions and the game started it's downward spiral. Nerf after nerf and so on. It basically turned the game into a mining/crafting simulator because everything else was borked. All I ever remember seeing on the forums in the beginning was people complain. Some complaints had merit, other didn't. What killed this game is the devs listening too damn much to the players early on.
How does this negate LilT's point? The devs failed because they listened to they whiners and ignored those that were posting constructive helpful ideas (and there were plenty of those). This still makes it the devs fault because it was still their decision.
IT WAS CHALLENGING!!!! OH AND BTW PRE CU MUST HAVE BEEN GOOD FOR YOU SINCE YOU HAD 4 ACCOUNTS!!!!!
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
The comparison between WoW and SWG is hollow, because while both games have a legion of boardwarrior whiners, WoW is significantly more polished with an excellent design strategy in mind. SWG, on the other hand, has been one giant hack after the next, all the way from PvP nerfs to Holocron Jedi to the village. *Three* modular revamps have yet to fully address all (or even most) of the design flaws eminent in SWG.
The players didn't torpedo SWG necessarily, it was horrific design flaws throughout the history of the game that led to its decline.
The only thing SWG has ever been good for, unfortunately, is for SOE to run a prototype for EQ2 and charge for it.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
What was great about SWG was that you were ale to role play living in Star Wars. That aside from the actual game itself, well the game itself was not very good in the first place, there were and still are as many problems and broken systems with this game as there was when it first launched 3 years ago. Before any of the CU, people wre complaining as loudly as they are now about the game play of this game, when the first CU people were complaining about the game play as loudly as they are now about the NGE, and here now with the NGE we have what you have today. All in all the game itself could have been great, but it shoots blanks and it didnt happen, maybe it will with SWG2. This game was dying a slow death after the first year of release due to the fact that the game did not live up to what was promised and what was described, and it still has not.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
NGE, on the other hand, is about 1 step forward (story arcs) and 10 steps back. I mean, c'mon... NGE has brought only one really cool thing to SWG: Story arc quests (which are actually pretty good). Other than that the entire game is crap. They kinda-sorta-wanna-be fps system is terrible. The change from a skill based to a PURE level based system is wrong-headed and the elimination of 3 professions that were very popular was a gaffe of astaunding proportions as well.
Then add in the fact that the storyline dies at 30 (did they fix that yet???) and you can't get XP missions unless you buy an expansion. Errr what's up with that? Have they added the level 30 to 90 content to the rest of the game yet? Or is it still just ROTW and TOOW?
Then add in the fact that not only is it a hard locked level system you also have no control over what skills you get at each level. Every few levels you get X skill and Y ability. It's the same for all players of that class, regardless of what they would PREFER.
Why don't I like SWG?
Because, quite simply, it is not the game I bought anymore. Pre-Cu and Post CU were both true to the game I purchased. NGE, however, is a completely different game in a style I detest. I don't enjoy the gameplay. I don't enjoy the level based system (which f's up PvP as well by the way). They even managed to make the graphics look horrible in the process with the lighting changes they made and doubling the speed made everything look robotic and silly as well.
I'd love a CU server (more than a pre-cu server actually) but I'd take a pre-CU server over NGE any day of the week, including sunday. NGE is crap, imo.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
There were some theoretically simple solutions to the problems realized in Pre-CU. I say theoretically because none of us can be sure how easily the fixes would have been to code. I get the feeling SWG code is just a hodge-podge of modules duct taped together.
I do feel that the CU was a step in the right direction to a point, I dont think it should have been released when it was, more time was needed, and I think it introduced some very unneccesary elements like Character Levels amoung other things. I really do think doc buffs were a major blow to the community. I like the idea but the implementation was way over the top. Buffs should've been around 500 points max, not 1800 or whatever they were. Enough to make it worth while, but not give you the power to solo Rancors and Krayts.
In all the part I miss the most about PreCU was the community. I remember going with groups out to Fort Tusken and hunting Krayts and it was hard and dangerous and FUN. I remember trying to convince BH's not to use their LLC while hunting because they soaked up most of the groups XP when they did. Camps, cantina's, hospitals, all of that I miss.
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SWG - 1st Gen MBH (Closed)
EVE (Closed)
WoW (61 Orc Hunter - Blackwing Lair)
GuildWars (Boring...)
While I do agree that listening to players is a good thing, there are limits to that as well. I worked as a CSR in the insurance industry (specifically auto and fire insurance). There are customers I had to deal with that were upset over their insurance premiums. If I had listened to complaints and acted upon their demands I would be facing lawsuits or even jail time. If you insist, I can provide examples, but I don't want to hijack this thread further :P
Simple point is that a business should listen to their consumers, but the choice of which to listen to still falls upon the business. SOE made a mistake, IMO, by listening to the wrong set of consumers. I hope that the next SW MMORPG that comes out doesn't make the same mistakes.
As far as Jedi go:
What they should have done with Jedi is make it so that instead of permadeath you get a 48 hour death or something. That would keep the numbers of Jedi stayed down. They could remain an alpha class and could still be influential in the GCW but not dominate it.
But pre-cu was an awsome awsome game. I played an absurd amount of hours and had a lot of damn fun. The NGE is just a total abomination. I tried it over and over and tried to like it. It sucks. It sucks bad.
What would the game have been like if SOE hadn't wasted so much time and resources on the CU and NGE due to their erroneous philosophy and understanding of human nature? We can only imagine.
While I do agree that listening to players is a good thing, there are limits to that as well. I worked as a CSR in the insurance industry (specifically auto and fire insurance). There are customers I had to deal with that were upset over their insurance premiums. If I had listened to complaints and acted upon their demands I would be facing lawsuits or even jail time. If you insist, I can provide examples, but I don't want to hijack this thread further :P
Simple point is that a business should listen to their consumers, but the choice of which to listen to still falls upon the business. SOE made a mistake, IMO, by listening to the wrong set of consumers. I hope that the next SW MMORPG that comes out doesn't make the same mistakes.
Actually.. they didn't listen to their customers. They listened to their exit surveys and focus groups much more.
SO in a nutshell, they listened to their NON-customers. Bird in the hand V.S. Bushbirds. Classic case.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Pre-cu was the best game platform out there for role players and pvpers all mixed into one.
The unballance could have been fixed by tweeking the numbers in the already-existing Pre-CU platform so that 80% block wasn't 80%.... mind shot didnt kill so much mind... Dots didnt do so much damage as fast... etc... Only the numbers in the equational mechanics needed to be changed.
Instead they completely revamped the game and destroyed what we liked to bring in what they liked or wanted.... meaning the managememnt and developers.
In came the CU (Combat Upgrade). It sucked, but not so bad that it couldn't be played though a great number left because it was a very bad change because it made and adult game a kiddy game... it became easy.
Closer to the P3 release and the retarded PC packaged as console for the masses.
Next complete platform revamp and overlay was called the NGE (New Game Enhancement).
The Combat Upgrade was not an upgrade, it was a downgrade that made lag twice as bad and even I had to install another gig of memory to play in it.
The New Game Enhancement was not a new game nor an enhancement of any kind. It was once again a blatant regression of the game that removed even more of the elements that formed the community and stratagy that the customers loved about Star Wars Galaxies.
Every time there is a major change, SOE bills the change as something the customers ask for and want, something new, an "enhancement" or "upgrade" that always becomes the complete opposite.
This is why people are angry. The game has been tarnished, raped, trampled, and spit on by the very people who should be its protectors and caretakers. For that reason, the customer base no longer trusts SOE (Sont Online Entertainment) or LAE (Lucas Arts Entertainment).
Until SOE and LAE see their customers as more then just sheep with wallets, this will continue as a problem I believe.
"SWG was a world, now it's just a game" -adamrk-
"When the game was good, you didn't have to ask where the population was, because it was everywhere. When the game was good you didn't have to ask which server had population, because they all did. When the game was good you didn't have to beg friends to give it a try, because they were already playing. " - Salty Pete
-virtual tourist
want your game back?
I'll tell you what I had before the CU:
1) A rulebook that told me what to do.
2) A Holocron in game help system, that was more right than it was wrong.
3) Big worlds where I had a 1001 productive things I could do between POI A and POI B. We didn't need instant travel, because it was fun just to get to the mission points.
4) Good items and gear that was available in quantity and cheap from real players, without having to camp spawns like a tool, or pay some lootmonger ungodly amounts of credits.
5) Being able to have things to do that mattered to more than my personal ego, without having to even fire a shot.
6) Realism in blaster sounds, effects, animations, and equipment properly displayed on the players. None of this magic halo crap, and armor that is worn, yet not seen as worn on the character.
7) Having so many fun things to see and do in between 10 minute starport waits, I'd even miss the shuttle. Having such fun times in the cantina, I'd even stay for hours, rather than feel like a tool.
8) Being able to craft when I want to craft, entertain when I want to entertain, explore when I want to explore, fight when I want to fight, all on the same character.
9) Having enough stability within the rules that I could spend more time playing than digging through the forums, wondering what has been nerfed, FOTMed, broke, fixed, or a waste of time.
10) An easy interface, with intuitive commands using a detailed and rich language, with all locomotion and combat controlled by the mouse.
That's what I want, and what I had. Its too much of a hassle for me to play the thing today, and to stay logged on. Too hardcore for me, and too complicated and unclear.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE