Originally posted by xPaladin *sigh* looks like you're on another one of your self-righteous flame sprees again. You really need to think before you talk sometimes. Or perhaps it is your intent to come off like a troll.
Just because I disagree with you does not make me a troll. Stop using ad hominem attacks to attempt to sway the discussion your way. If you want to have this conversation, let's have it. And if this really is a self-righteous flame spree, then I'm in the right forum for it.
He's complaining about the fact that the time people invested in the past was invested for the future of the game. I'll explain with an example from my own experience.
I've cut out your story, and I do understand. But you have to understand that SWG has hundreds of thousands of players. There is no one right way to play the game, especially something as open ended as SWG. While you may have invested in a future - a future, incidently which was predicted by no less than a dozen profession revamps and another combat revamp, thereby proving that the future of SWG has NEVER been absolute - others might have just gotten on to socialize, or have fun in the moment, or whatever. SOE does not dictate how you play the game, only that you don't ruin the experience of others online with you through rude behavior or exploits. Your playing style, one of thousands, is not something SOE is in charge of protecting. Yes, you feel insecure when changes you can't affect happen to you, but how you handle that is what separates the men from the boys.
So roll with the punches. The game changed. It didn't die. Your character is still there, and even if the relative changes in value are different, 99% of the things you had are still there. Even the targetting change is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. SWG just before the CU was as different from launch as the CU was days before it hit, and between the NGE and the CU. The game has been in motion for a long time, but the NGE was a big change all at one time, and frankly, you just couldn't handle it. How you handle the change is not SOE's problem. It is your choice whether you choose to pay and play, not SOEs. If you disagree with the changes, cancel your subscription and move on, because we aren't talking about SOE here. We never were. We're talking about you, and how you were hurt by change, and who you want to blame for it. Your problem.
- Found out late in the game (a week before live) that my much-loved slicing system was being altered significantly and against the community-accepted plan offered by GreenMarine
It was just that, a plan. You don't crucify people on intent.
So, yeah, I tend to think when SOE pulls crap like that, they have accountability.
And you have accountability too, for your actions here. If you stand up and speak out against SOE, you'd better be damned certain you've got something more than a self esteem problem and a little insecurity - and I'm not sure you do.
You seem to sidestep the additional dimension of this argument, Squidi. You seem to deliberately avoid the added dimension of: investment. These people (including myself) did not only pay just to play day-to-day, but they built up an investment in this game -- an investment of material game items (resources, amor, weapons, etc), and investment of monetary game items (credits).
But they were never yours. The items in the game have always belonged to SOE. You weren't even renting them. You have no rights concerning them. You could be banned from the game tomorrow and you'd have no recourse to collect that investment. IT'S NOT YOURS. IT NEVER WAS. How can you invest it?
And given that SWG, even by MMORPG standards, was extremely susceptable to large sweeping changes, the fact that the NGE hit (after a dozen profession revamps and previous combat upgrade) should have been a big flashing red light telling you that your "investment" was in constant danger. If the NGE was the first major change to the game and items within it, you'd have a small leg to stand on. But it wasn't. It wasn't even the tenth. Items changed value in that game practically daily. Hell, it's going to happen again with publish 29, and I have a sneaky suspicion it won't be the last time.
Do those who gambled with your 401k funds, and lost, simply say to you "Well, you had fun doing it, didn't you?" They could, but they'd be talking to your back-side as you were heading out the door for a lawyer.
But you are talking about real life investment, using money that was legally yours. Your imaginary 4th gen lightsaber +3 isn't quite the same fucking thing. Or am I the only one here with perspective on that sort of thing? I know it FEELS like the same thing, but you are ignoring a lot of important things to make that tenuous connection.
SOE destroyed the investment that so many players had paid over time to construct, and they did so over player objections (and not just a few players, a large majority of players).
SOE never promised to protect that investment. In fact, they say quite clearly in multiple places that they own the items you are playing with, they can take it away at any time, you cannot trade these items for real world money, and that the game most certainly will change over time. SOE has gone out of their way to remind you that it's not yours and don't get too attached.
Originally posted by Scorpes SOE literally loses hundreds of thousands of customers overnight and some people come to the conclusion its the customers fault? How does that make sense, the buiness is FOR the customer, so if a company loses 50% plus percent of their customer base wouldnt the oibvious conclusion be, that the company is at fault?
I don't believe your numbers are even remotely correct. Please tell me where you got the "hundreds of thousands" and "50%" numbers. Maybe there is a real conversation to be had here on that subject, but it won't start until the gross exaggerations stop.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Scorpes SOE literally loses hundreds of thousands of customers overnight and some people come to the conclusion its the customers fault? How does that make sense, the buiness is FOR the customer, so if a company loses 50% plus percent of their customer base wouldnt the oibvious conclusion be, that the company is at fault?
I don't believe your numbers are even remotely correct. Please tell me where you got the "hundreds of thousands" and "50%" numbers. Maybe there is a real conversation to be had here on that subject, but it won't start until the gross exaggerations stop.
Unprove perhaps, but when you say gross exageration, then clearly you are talking about a baseline number too. So since you know how many subs quit then say so, otherwise, you accusaion of gross exageration is also completely unfactual and mystical because you need an original number to claim anything is exagerated nevermind grossly.
As for how many actually quit, Ill say the FACT that the president and CEO of a major corportate company had to post, for the first time ever, begging people not to leave. Thats a sure sign of company management success right?
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Scorpes SOE literally loses hundreds of thousands of customers overnight and some people come to the conclusion its the customers fault? How does that make sense, the buiness is FOR the customer, so if a company loses 50% plus percent of their customer base wouldnt the oibvious conclusion be, that the company is at fault?
I don't believe your numbers are even remotely correct. Please tell me where you got the "hundreds of thousands" and "50%" numbers. Maybe there is a real conversation to be had here on that subject, but it won't start until the gross exaggerations stop.
probably because of the population counts and the peak being for this game being somewhere around 500k. Now the Subs are MAYBE at 50k (estimate) and thats being generous. Just because you see one server with ever city full dont mean its got 100,000's of people.
one more thing, i want to ask you a question. If you like the NGE so much and apprently would like to hear more good opinions about it. Why not go to the SWG forums? all your doing on these forums is fighting to change everyones point of view on the game.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
probably because of the population counts and the peak being for this game being somewhere around 500k. Now the Subs are MAYBE at 50k (estimate) and thats being generous.PROVE IT!!!
one more thing, i want to ask you a question. If you like the NGE so much and apprently would like to hear more good opinions about it. Why not go to the SWG forums? all your doing on these forums is fighting to change everyones point of view on the game. I'm not trying to change anyone's view. If you dislike the NGE, that's a personal preference and you are welcome to it. What I'm trying to do is make you people understand that people are ALLOWED to have different opinions than you without being flamed, told they work for SOE, or told they should leave the forum. *ahem*
Unprove perhaps, but when you say gross exageration, then clearly you are talking about a baseline number too. So since you know how many subs quit then say so, otherwise, you accusaion of gross exageration is also completely unfactual and mystical because you need an original number to claim anything is exagerated nevermind grossly. If he doesn't have a clue about the numbers, ANYTHING he writes is a gross exaggeration. Unless you can prove your claim, you have not right to come here making it. The only claims I have made as to the population of the game have been small, observable, and testable. Haven't you ever taken a science class?
As for how many actually quit, Ill say the FACT that the president and CEO of a major corportate company had to post, for the first time ever, begging people not to leave. Thats a sure sign of company management success right? Actually, that's not what he did. People demanded answers - some sort of response that they weren't getting, and he came in and gave them one... after being spotted in the forum of some guild arguing with them. He never begged people not to leave. He merely responded to their desire for a two way conversation. That is good management, and they should've done it far sooner than that.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by xPaladin *sigh* looks like you're on another one of your self-righteous flame sprees again. You really need to think before you talk sometimes. Or perhaps it is your intent to come off like a troll.
Just because I disagree with you does not make me a troll. Stop using ad hominem attacks to attempt to sway the discussion your way. If you want to have this conversation, let's have it. And if this really is a self-righteous flame spree, then I'm in the right forum for it.
He's complaining about the fact that the time people invested in the past was invested for the future of the game. I'll explain with an example from my own experience.
I've cut out your story, and I do understand. But you have to understand that SWG has hundreds of thousands of players. There is no one right way to play the game, especially something as open ended as SWG. While you may have invested in a future - a future, incidently which was predicted by no less than a dozen profession revamps and another combat revamp, thereby proving that the future of SWG has NEVER been absolute - others might have just gotten on to socialize, or have fun in the moment, or whatever. SOE does not dictate how you play the game, only that you don't ruin the experience of others online with you through rude behavior or exploits. Your playing style, one of thousands, is not something SOE is in charge of protecting. Yes, you feel insecure when changes you can't affect happen to you, but how you handle that is what separates the men from the boys.
So roll with the punches. The game changed. It didn't die. Your character is still there, and even if the relative changes in value are different, 99% of the things you had are still there. Even the targetting change is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. SWG just before the CU was as different from launch as the CU was days before it hit, and between the NGE and the CU. The game has been in motion for a long time, but the NGE was a big change all at one time, and frankly, you just couldn't handle it. How you handle the change is not SOE's problem. It is your choice whether you choose to pay and play, not SOEs. If you disagree with the changes, cancel your subscription and move on, because we aren't talking about SOE here. We never were. We're talking about you, and how you were hurt by change, and who you want to blame for it. Your problem.
- Found out late in the game (a week before live) that my much-loved slicing system was being altered significantly and against the community-accepted plan offered by GreenMarine
It was just that, a plan. You don't crucify people on intent.
So, yeah, I tend to think when SOE pulls crap like that, they have accountability.
And you have accountability too, for your actions here. If you stand up and speak out against SOE, you'd better be damned certain you've got something more than a self esteem problem and a little insecurity - and I'm not sure you do.
Squidi how can you claim that we are not talking about SOE? SOE made changes to the game, removing professions. How can you say that 99% of the things we had are still there? What do you base those numbers on? I think you are just throwing numbers around for the sake of the numbers. Truth is that numbers cannot represent the feeling of loosing a profession you've played for several years.
SOE had the legal right to do what they did, but I will at any time dispute that they had the moral right to do what they did. Yes if I'm unhappy with the changes noone forces me to play and I can quit at any time but it doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain. I payed money for the box to play this game. I payed money to play this game every month. All of a sudden SOE decides that SWG isn't fun and that it should be changed. SOE took away my entertainment which I had payed for with nothing else to go to. At the moment there's no other game out there that delivers what SWG had, but there are plenty of games out there that delivers what it have now.
You claim that SWG really hasn't changed that much. I tell you that there's a world between a skill based system and a level based system. There's a world between over 9 "iconic" professions and over 32 different professions that you can mix and match within given limits. There's a huge difference between a twitch based system and a turn based system. You might not think so, but a lot of people believe so.
As for your comment about what seperates men from boys then you know jack about things like that. Handling changes in a game doesn't mean anything where as handling changes in life means everything. There's a huge difference in handling the changes in a game and real life... after all the game is meant to be fun.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by tvalentine
probably because of the population counts and the peak being for this game being somewhere around 500k. Now the Subs are MAYBE at 50k (estimate) and thats being generous.PROVE IT!!!
one more thing, i want to ask you a question. If you like the NGE so much and apprently would like to hear more good opinions about it. Why not go to the SWG forums? all your doing on these forums is fighting to change everyones point of view on the game. I'm not trying to change anyone's view. If you dislike the NGE, that's a personal preference and you are welcome to it. What I'm trying to do is make you people understand that people are ALLOWED to have different opinions than you without being flamed, told they work for SOE, or told they should leave the forum. *ahem*
what do you mean prove it? the population was posted back when the game came out, it was around 500k-700k. and why dont you prove me wrong? you always say that were wrong, but how do you know if its more or less then 50k subs? And yeah i get where your coming from when people draw people away when they ask if this game is any good. But honestly if i am going to try out a new game, i would go to the games site, and check it out. Considering its straight information, and not misleading, its right from the core info.
one more thing, i want to ask you a question. If you like the NGE so much and apprently would like to hear more good opinions about it. Why not go to the SWG forums? all your doing on these forums is fighting to change everyones point of view on the game. I'm not trying to change anyone's view. If you dislike the NGE, that's a personal preference and you are welcome to it. What I'm trying to do is make you people understand that people are ALLOWED to have different opinions than you without being flamed, told they work for SOE, or told they should leave the forum. *ahem*
what do you mean prove it? the population was posted back when the game came out, it was around 500k-700k. and why dont you prove me wrong? you always say that were wrong, but how do you know if its more or less then 50k subs? And yeah i get where your coming from when people draw people away when they ask if this game is any good. But honestly if i am going to try out a new game, i would go to the games site, and check it out. Considering its straight information, and not misleading, its right from the core info.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Scorpes
Unprove perhaps, but when you say gross exageration, then clearly you are talking about a baseline number too. So since you know how many subs quit then say so, otherwise, you accusaion of gross exageration is also completely unfactual and mystical because you need an original number to claim anything is exagerated nevermind grossly. If he doesn't have a clue about the numbers, ANYTHING he writes is a gross exaggeration. Unless you can prove your claim, you have not right to come here making it. The only claims I have made as to the population of the game have been small, observable, and testable. Haven't you ever taken a science class?
As for how many actually quit, Ill say the FACT that the president and CEO of a major corportate company had to post, for the first time ever, begging people not to leave. Thats a sure sign of company management success right? Actually, that's not what he did. People demanded answers - some sort of response that they weren't getting, and he came in and gave them one... after being spotted in the forum of some guild arguing with them. He never begged people not to leave. He merely responded to their desire for a two way conversation. That is good management, and they should've done it far sooner than that.
Wrong again, you talk about if ive taken science. Science is mostly about observation. When I and the VAST majority of people are almost in complete unity when it comes to the armageddon like collapse of the user base that cannot be ignored. Of course, you can ignore it, and the small cadre of other blind die hards can also.
ALL evidence consistently shows that after the NGE hit, whole servers have emptied out and its almost impossible to find anyone to team with anymore.
QFE "That is good management"
SOE and good management.....lol there is simply nothing to be said about that, speaks for itself.
Originally posted by Agricola1 Wrong, many people canceled only to find $OE would charge them for another month or more a week later. $OE usualy refuses to re-imberse the ex-customer and blame it on the system, I'd call that theft. When I canceled I went and got a new credit card from my bank just incase, since I'd heard so many $OE horror stories.
The very first acted done to create Sony was a theft looks like things haven't changed much in the last 50 years.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by tvalentine
probably because of the population counts and the peak being for this game being somewhere around 500k. Now the Subs are MAYBE at 50k (estimate) and thats being generous.PROVE IT!!!
one more thing, i want to ask you a question. If you like the NGE so much and apprently would like to hear more good opinions about it. Why not go to the SWG forums? all your doing on these forums is fighting to change everyones point of view on the game. I'm not trying to change anyone's view. If you dislike the NGE, that's a personal preference and you are welcome to it. What I'm trying to do is make you people understand that people are ALLOWED to have different opinions than you without being flamed, told they work for SOE, or told they should leave the forum. *ahem*
First, Squidi, your the one that stated on another thread that you have never posted or claimed any numbers. So, you clearly lost credibility and I consider it inappropriate (almost trolling/flaming) for you to ask others to “Prove It”. Clearly, you are unable to "Prove It" yourself. The fact is, there servers are emptied compared to pre-NGE. They aren't likely to fill backup either. And that is something the Community has proven -- Smeldey noted that with the NGE people voted with their feet. That is better proof than "My server has 10 more people today than it did yesterday" kinds of statements.
Secondly, if your not trying to change peoples mind, why answer threads? Particularly with your “Prove It” attitude? Seems to me your trying to bait people into a flame war with those kinds of statements.
So once again, the Community is correct in their summation of NGE. So, please stop asking people to prove the NGE is neither popular nor a success unless you can "Prove It".
Originally posted by tjvoodoo I had to vote $oe want money for nothing - why?
When i was paying them they told me of all the glorious revamps that my money was going towards - november 2005 i found out the truth, $OE had lied to me and my money hadnt been spent on any revamps - no more money from me $OE liers
GFE all those empty promises... smuggler anyone ?.. gcw revamp...ranger revamp...
First, Squidi, your the one that stated on another thread that you have never posted or claimed any numbers.
I never posted numbers. I posted relative observations. How what I see now is different than what I saw a month ago. I never made claims on how large the delta was, only the direction. Anybody who has a current account would easily be able to independantly verify my claims of the current population of Ahazi at Mos Eisley and Theed. But since you can't do that, you assume I'm wrong. I've only posted what you, yourself, could see for yourself.
So, you clearly lost credibility
Ever since I said I liked the NGE, I haven't had any credibility - though no fault of my own. This isn't healthy skepticism either. This is sticking fingers in your ears and going LA-LA-LA-LA. The second you admit that it is possible, valid, and acceptable for someone to have a differing opinion than you, we'll see where my credibility stands.
Secondly, if your not trying to change peoples mind, why answer threads? Particularly with your “Prove It” attitude? Seems to me your trying to bait people into a flame war with those kinds of statements.
What I'm trying to do is bait people into thinking about the bullshit they write. Everybody here is screaming at the top of their lungs and can't hear anything but their own bitching. I'm trying to provide a devil's advocate so that people are forced to confront their own crap and think, hey, you know what, maybe I'm not being as rational as I think I am. Maybe my opinions on the NGE aren't really based on the current state of the NGE at all. Maybe they are based on something else. Maybe something completely unrelated to SOE or the NGE. Maybe somebody moved my cheese and I'm just not handling it as maturely as I could.
So once again, the Community is correct in their summation of NGE. So, please stop asking people to prove the NGE is neither popular nor a success unless you can "Prove It".
The community is filled with idiots who confuse fact with opinions. You, yourself, just now in this previous paragraph made an appeal to popularity - one of the first logical fallacies they teach you in a public speaking class. It's a logical fallacy because it doesn't stand up to intense scrutiny - it is illogical - and it is a bad thing because it works on simple minds that don't realize they are being manipulated. That you constantly repeat such claims makes me think less that you are the manipulator and more that you are the manipulated.
And for the record, I'm not asking ANYBODY to prove that the NGE is unpopular or a failure. Both those terms are meaningless. What makes something unpopular? Think about that really. If a game has enough active players to sustain itself, how important is popularity anyway? Horizons is "unpopular" but it doesn't matter. What I AM asking people to prove are the very bullshti numbers they post - you know, the ones they heard from some anonymous guy who heard it from some other anonymous guy. It's like a game of telephone - you, yourself, have in the past increased numbers between two posts written a day apart. The fish is THIIIISS big.
I don't want the "truthiness" numbers. I don't want what "feels" right. I want sources. Honest to fucking god sources where you can state, aha, this is where I got this number and this is where I got that number, and that's how I'm drawing these lucid opinions of mine. None of this, I kinda heard this number somewhere from some guy I don't know and I don't know this number, but I'm going to make up something that sounds right to me. Quote your sources.
I'm still angry with SOE/LA over the NGE for the following reasons:
1. About a month prior to the NGE I had spent around 5-10mil on smuggler components for slicing after the slicing change. 3 weeks later BOOM 5 mil down the drain because they removed ALL of the slicing tools from my inventory. - with absolutely no compensation
2. That doesn't even touch on the 2k (5m-10m value) worth of powerups that I had sitting on a vendor that had anywhere from 3-5 stats that were made with best-ever resources, that also went POOF! - with absolutely no compensation.
3. ALL of the useless weapon components that I once again....... yes, here it comes......... SPENT 10-20 MIL on that were completely useless/worthless after the NGE, yet again: - with absolutely no compensation.
So basicly, 40 Mil down the drain, with no compensation and nothing to show for it. To me that's CONTEMPT pure and simple.
Now if you really wanna be nitpicky, I could include the 500mil worth of resources that I had been stockpiling since week 3 of the game when I started grinding/working through the weaponsmith tree.
The most disheartening thing about all of that, SOE's response. Too bad, we don't care, we have your money and we aren't going to help you.
On top of that they gave combat classes the ability to respec to a master crafter class but not the opportunity to go from a master crafting class to a master combat class. And basically giving all of us who were part of the system that outfitted, clothed, fed, and protected the players of the servers the middle finger salute.
All the while saying "Vet players, we don't care about you, your contributions to the game world, the money you have given us for the core game, expansions, and monthly fees ........ WE will decide what you like and want without even acknowledging any of the player suggestions about changes that YOU wanted."
On another note: YES! I was angry with the CURB initially when it came out, after awhile I was able to adapt to the new playstyle, and REALLY enjoy the combat system changes............ the NGE, notsomuch why? because it wasn't fun for me only being able to be a crafter with no hopes of ever using one of the weapons that I made again. Sure, I *COULD* now roll a 2nd char on the server to offset that a little but it's not the same running around in another skin on the very server that I spent so much time building an identity on.
SOE shows complete contempt for the players of SWG for lying, misinformation, and NO communication to the players about changes that are coming down the pipe.
Since the NGE I have:
1. Watched a guild that once had 140+ international/national members with at least 20-30 people active at all times to a guild of maybe 10 people that kind of log in sometimes.
2. Watched cities and guilds die quick deaths due to the attrition that the NGE caused in the game.
3. Taken action by CANCELLING 2 accounts, to "put my money where my mouth is."
4. Along with the other underhanded business practices and contempt for it's (SOny Corporation as a whole) customers initiate a LIFELONG BOYCOTT of ALL Sony products from blank CD's to Consumer Electronics to Software (BTW if you have/had a copy of ACID 5 installed on your PC, you have the DRM "root-kit") and do what I can to educate people about HOW bad Sony's business practices are.
So please feel free to flame away, and tell me how idiotic I am for feeling this way and expressing my experiences and opinion in this thread.
Uhmm. I replied to the entire conversation there chief... Its relevant.. BUT thansk for playing.
Xcathdra
what is a buyt :P
It would be where you would find nothing else wrong to point out except for my spelling
Hitting the bottom of the barrel to find something wrong, not finding it, and continuing to dig past the bottom.
And fixed...
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars.. Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons... Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Originally posted by Agit I'm still angry with SOE/LA over the NGE for the following reasons:
1. About a month prior to the NGE I had spent around 5-10mil on smuggler components for slicing after the slicing change. 3 weeks later BOOM 5 mil down the drain because they removed ALL of the slicing tools from my inventory. - with absolutely no compensation
2. That doesn't even touch on the 2k (5m-10m value) worth of powerups that I had sitting on a vendor that had anywhere from 3-5 stats that were made with best-ever resources, that also went POOF! - with absolutely no compensation.
3. ALL of the useless weapon components that I once again....... yes, here it comes......... SPENT 10-20 MIL on that were completely useless/worthless after the NGE, yet again: - with absolutely no compensation.
So basicly, 40 Mil down the drain, with no compensation and nothing to show for it. To me that's CONTEMPT pure and simple.
Now if you really wanna be nitpicky, I could include the 500mil worth of resources that I had been stockpiling since week 3 of the game when I started grinding/working through the weaponsmith tree.
The most disheartening thing about all of that, SOE's response. Too bad, we don't care, we have your money and we aren't going to help you.
On top of that they gave combat classes the ability to respec to a master crafter class but not the opportunity to go from a master crafting class to a master combat class. And basically giving all of us who were part of the system that outfitted, clothed, fed, and protected the players of the servers the middle finger salute.
All the while saying "Vet players, we don't care about you, your contributions to the game world, the money you have given us for the core game, expansions, and monthly fees ........ WE will decide what you like and want without even acknowledging any of the player suggestions about changes that YOU wanted."
On another note: YES! I was angry with the CURB initially when it came out, after awhile I was able to adapt to the new playstyle, and REALLY enjoy the combat system changes............ the NGE, notsomuch why? because it wasn't fun for me only being able to be a crafter with no hopes of ever using one of the weapons that I made again. Sure, I *COULD* now roll a 2nd char on the server to offset that a little but it's not the same running around in another skin on the very server that I spent so much time building an identity on.
SOE shows complete contempt for the players of SWG for lying, misinformation, and NO communication to the players about changes that are coming down the pipe.
Since the NGE I have:
1. Watched a guild that once had 140+ international/national members with at least 20-30 people active at all times to a guild of maybe 10 people that kind of log in sometimes.
2. Watched cities and guilds die quick deaths due to the attrition that the NGE caused in the game.
3. Taken action by CANCELLING 2 accounts, to "put my money where my mouth is."
4. Along with the other underhanded business practices and contempt for it's (SOny Corporation as a whole) customers initiate a LIFELONG BOYCOTT of ALL Sony products from blank CD's to Consumer Electronics to Software (BTW if you have/had a copy of ACID 5 installed on your PC, you have the DRM "root-kit") and do what I can to educate people about HOW bad Sony's business practices are.
So please feel free to flame away, and tell me how idiotic I am for feeling this way and expressing my experiences and opinion in this thread.
Great post in showing how shabby they treated their own customers. Weapons, armor, resources, AA's and CA's, all the work and effort you put into your characters let alone proffs that didn't even exist anymore.
The worst thing of all is that most of your players know they were just plain 'sold out' by SOE in an attempt to win over players of WoW and that SOE really thought that most players would put up with this and wouldn't cancel their accounts. It's like blatantly saying "We think you're all idiots and would be too stupid to know we sold you out in an attempt to win a few new customers from WoW, now just send in that monthly paymet like a good little chump." and really the only suprise for them was way more people cancelled than their study/focus groups had counted on. Think about it people. They really thought they could just shove off that low budget game change, that even months later after launch wouldn't be considered good enough for Beta material in many other MMO's, onto the playerbase and they'd just send in that monthly payment like good little sheep.
That is a total slap in the face to me and it's the number one reason why I'll never play another SOE game again. After playing EQ1 for years before SWG and all the same problems that seem commen in other SOE games is the second biggest reason I'll never play another SOE game. I have paid for 2 games that were chock full of bugs, some of which never get fixed or ignored for months on end, had endless cycles of nerfs, changes to combat and proffs/classes that make your characters useless for months and therefor also the effort you spent in buiding that character, multiple 'combat upgrades' or 'revamps' that totaly changed how combat operated, and dozenss of other problems that are seem rampant in most of the SOE games including MxO and EQ2.
Granted even both of them had some problems in their early years there they were great fun to play in the beginning but they aren't worth putting up with that type of crap in the long run.
Originally posted by tvalentine Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by tvalentine
probably because of the population counts and the peak being for this game being somewhere around 500k. Now the Subs are MAYBE at 50k (estimate) and thats being generous.PROVE IT!!!
one more thing, i want to ask you a question. If you like the NGE so much and apprently would like to hear more good opinions about it. Why not go to the SWG forums? all your doing on these forums is fighting to change everyones point of view on the game. I'm not trying to change anyone's view. If you dislike the NGE, that's a personal preference and you are welcome to it. What I'm trying to do is make you people understand that people are ALLOWED to have different opinions than you without being flamed, told they work for SOE, or told they should leave the forum. *ahem*
what do you mean prove it? the population was posted back when the game came out, it was around 500k-700k. and why dont you prove me wrong? you always say that were wrong, but how do you know if its more or less then 50k subs? And yeah i get where your coming from when people draw people away when they ask if this game is any good. But honestly if i am going to try out a new game, i would go to the games site, and check it out. Considering its straight information, and not misleading, its right from the core info.
one more thing, i want to ask you a question. If you like the NGE so much and apprently would like to hear more good opinions about it. Why not go to the SWG forums? all your doing on these forums is fighting to change everyones point of view on the game. I'm not trying to change anyone's view. If you dislike the NGE, that's a personal preference and you are welcome to it. What I'm trying to do is make you people understand that people are ALLOWED to have different opinions than you without being flamed, told they work for SOE, or told they should leave the forum. *ahem*
what do you mean prove it? the population was posted back when the game came out, it was around 500k-700k. and why dont you prove me wrong? you always say that were wrong, but how do you know if its more or less then 50k subs? And yeah i get where your coming from when people draw people away when they ask if this game is any good. But honestly if i am going to try out a new game, i would go to the games site, and check it out. Considering its straight information, and not misleading, its right from the core info.
one more thing, i want to ask you a question. If you like the NGE so much and apprently would like to hear more good opinions about it. Why not go to the SWG forums? all your doing on these forums is fighting to change everyones point of view on the game. I'm not trying to change anyone's view. If you dislike the NGE, that's a personal preference and you are welcome to it. What I'm trying to do is make you people understand that people are ALLOWED to have different opinions than you without being flamed, told they work for SOE, or told they should leave the forum. *ahem*
what do you mean prove it? the population was posted back when the game came out, it was around 500k-700k. and why dont you prove me wrong? you always say that were wrong, but how do you know if its more or less then 50k subs? And yeah i get where your coming from when people draw people away when they ask if this game is any good. But honestly if i am going to try out a new game, i would go to the games site, and check it out. Considering its straight information, and not misleading, its right from the core info.
still waitin on an answer squidi .... what are the numbers?? considering you shoot down every other number.
Lord squidi knows all!!! all knowing
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Yes... but DID YOU? You can't be pissed in the hypothetical.
Squidi, being a woman I'm somewhat of an expert on this particular point....
A person can get pissed at ANYTHING at all at any time. It is completely plausable that people get pissed off at hypothetical occurances. And it is perfectly possible to get hypothetically pissed.
I just think they are the 1st american company to figure out what most other countries already knew about american consumers.
The average american consumer will accept sub-standard services/products and pay full price for it because they are easily distracted by shiny baubles. This irritates me to no end when attempting to do business overseas , but it seems a few US companies finally realized its true most of the time. The average person will take crap because they are told to by the business providing the goods/services. happens everyday in every business ( mostly non US companies profit on this mentality, as its a rare US company to just adopt -The customer is stupid- approach).
They are also setting a precedent here , they are proving to all software designers that people will pay for the right to test it for you as long as you promise "it will get better in 6 months" every 6 months.
I really wonder who the next company will be that decides to float the design budget by charging for spots in a closed alpha/beta test.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Originally posted by Gorair i dont know if enemy is the right word ... I just think they are the 1st american company to figure out what most other countries already knew about american consumers. The average american consumer will accept sub-standard services/products and pay full price for it because they are easily distracted by shiny baubles. This irritates me to no end when attempting to do business overseas , but it seems a few US companies finally realized its true most of the time. The average person will take crap because they are told to by the business providing the goods/services. happens everyday in every business ( mostly non US companies profit on this mentality, as its a rare US company to just adopt -The customer is stupid- approach).
There are plent of companies in the US that consider their client base intelligent and work well with the customers. But, SOE is an example of assumed the customer is stupid approach (as is LA).
They are also setting a precedent here , they are proving to all software designers that people will pay for the right to test it for you as long as you promise "it will get better in 6 months" every 6 months.
I am not clear that SOE has achieved that. I think (compared to my thoughts 7 months ago) that folks realize SOE screwed people over (it doesn't matter if SOE did so intentionally or accidently).
I really wonder who the next company will be that decides to float the design budget by charging for spots in a closed alpha/beta test.
Well, unfortunately, that happens all the time. I can tell you the company that I work for enjoys getting paid for R&D as well as the product it delivers to that customer. THat is because it can then resell the technology to other companies.
Comments
*Hammers in "Do not feed the trolls" sign*
*walks away*
SWG Tempest: Cardo Dycen RIP
Eve: Cardoh Dycen
I support random drug testing for all SOE employees
Unprove perhaps, but when you say gross exageration, then clearly you are talking about a baseline number too. So since you know how many subs quit then say so, otherwise, you accusaion of gross exageration is also completely unfactual and mystical because you need an original number to claim anything is exagerated nevermind grossly.
As for how many actually quit, Ill say the FACT that the president and CEO of a major corportate company had to post, for the first time ever, begging people not to leave. Thats a sure sign of company management success right?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
probably because of the population counts and the peak being for this game being somewhere around 500k. Now the Subs are MAYBE at 50k (estimate) and thats being generous. Just because you see one server with ever city full dont mean its got 100,000's of people.
one more thing, i want to ask you a question. If you like the NGE so much and apprently would like to hear more good opinions about it. Why not go to the SWG forums? all your doing on these forums is fighting to change everyones point of view on the game.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Squidi how can you claim that we are not talking about SOE? SOE made changes to the game, removing professions. How can you say that 99% of the things we had are still there? What do you base those numbers on? I think you are just throwing numbers around for the sake of the numbers. Truth is that numbers cannot represent the feeling of loosing a profession you've played for several years.
SOE had the legal right to do what they did, but I will at any time dispute that they had the moral right to do what they did. Yes if I'm unhappy with the changes noone forces me to play and I can quit at any time but it doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain. I payed money for the box to play this game. I payed money to play this game every month. All of a sudden SOE decides that SWG isn't fun and that it should be changed. SOE took away my entertainment which I had payed for with nothing else to go to. At the moment there's no other game out there that delivers what SWG had, but there are plenty of games out there that delivers what it have now.
You claim that SWG really hasn't changed that much. I tell you that there's a world between a skill based system and a level based system. There's a world between over 9 "iconic" professions and over 32 different professions that you can mix and match within given limits. There's a huge difference between a twitch based system and a turn based system. You might not think so, but a lot of people believe so.
As for your comment about what seperates men from boys then you know jack about things like that. Handling changes in a game doesn't mean anything where as handling changes in life means everything. There's a huge difference in handling the changes in a game and real life... after all the game is meant to be fun.
what do you mean prove it? the population was posted back when the game came out, it was around 500k-700k. and why dont you prove me wrong? you always say that were wrong, but how do you know if its more or less then 50k subs? And yeah i get where your coming from when people draw people away when they ask if this game is any good. But honestly if i am going to try out a new game, i would go to the games site, and check it out. Considering its straight information, and not misleading, its right from the core info.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Wrong again, you talk about if ive taken science. Science is mostly about observation. When I and the VAST majority of people are almost in complete unity when it comes to the armageddon like collapse of the user base that cannot be ignored. Of course, you can ignore it, and the small cadre of other blind die hards can also.
ALL evidence consistently shows that after the NGE hit, whole servers have emptied out and its almost impossible to find anyone to team with anymore.
QFE "That is good management"
SOE and good management.....lol there is simply nothing to be said about that, speaks for itself.
Is it so hard to understand why some people are pissed?
Yes because some people would buy a turd as long as Star Wars was on the label they just can't comprehend why anyone else would not do the same.
<imgsrc="http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/86975/Black_Fire.jpg">;
<ahref="http://profile.xfire.com/aetiuslonginus"><img src="http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/2/aetiuslonginus.png"; width="450" height="34" /></a>
<imgsrc="http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/86975/Black_Fire.jpg">;
<ahref="http://profile.xfire.com/aetiuslonginus"><img src="http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/2/aetiuslonginus.png"; width="450" height="34" /></a>
First,
Squidi, your the one that stated on another thread that you have
never posted or claimed any numbers. So, you clearly lost
credibility and I consider it inappropriate (almost
trolling/flaming) for you to ask others to “Prove It”. Clearly, you are unable to "Prove It" yourself. The fact
is, there servers are emptied compared to pre-NGE. They aren't likely
to fill backup either. And that is something the Community has proven -- Smeldey noted that with the NGE people voted with their feet. That is better proof than "My server has 10 more people today than it did yesterday" kinds of statements.
Secondly, if your not trying to change
peoples mind, why answer threads? Particularly with your “Prove
It” attitude? Seems to me your trying to bait people into a flame
war with those kinds of statements.
So once again, the Community is correct
in their summation of NGE. So, please stop asking people to prove the NGE is neither popular nor a success unless you can "Prove It".
all those empty promises... smuggler anyone ?.. gcw revamp...ranger revamp...
1. About a month prior to the NGE I had spent around 5-10mil on smuggler components for slicing after the slicing change. 3 weeks later BOOM 5 mil down the drain because they removed ALL of the slicing tools from my inventory. - with absolutely no compensation
2. That doesn't even touch on the 2k (5m-10m value) worth of powerups that I had sitting on a vendor that had anywhere from 3-5 stats that were made with best-ever resources, that also went POOF! - with absolutely no compensation.
3. ALL of the useless weapon components that I once again....... yes, here it comes......... SPENT 10-20 MIL on that were completely useless/worthless after the NGE, yet again: - with absolutely no compensation.
So basicly, 40 Mil down the drain, with no compensation and nothing to show for it. To me that's CONTEMPT pure and simple.
Now if you really wanna be nitpicky, I could include the 500mil worth of resources that I had been stockpiling since week 3 of the game when I started grinding/working through the weaponsmith tree.
The most disheartening thing about all of that, SOE's response. Too bad, we don't care, we have your money and we aren't going to help you.
On top of that they gave combat classes the ability to respec to a master crafter class but not the opportunity to go from a master crafting class to a master combat class. And basically giving all of us who were part of the system that outfitted, clothed, fed, and protected the players of the servers the middle finger salute.
All the while saying "Vet players, we don't care about you, your contributions to the game world, the money you have given us for the core game, expansions, and monthly fees ........ WE will decide what you like and want without even acknowledging any of the player suggestions about changes that YOU wanted."
On another note:
YES! I was angry with the CURB initially when it came out, after awhile I was able to adapt to the new playstyle, and REALLY enjoy the combat system changes............ the NGE, notsomuch why? because it wasn't fun for me only being able to be a crafter with no hopes of ever using one of the weapons that I made again. Sure, I *COULD* now roll a 2nd char on the server to offset that a little but it's not the same running around in another skin on the very server that I spent so much time building an identity on.
SOE shows complete contempt for the players of SWG for lying, misinformation, and NO communication to the players about changes that are coming down the pipe.
Since the NGE I have:
1. Watched a guild that once had 140+ international/national members with at least 20-30 people active at all times to a guild of maybe 10 people that kind of log in sometimes.
2. Watched cities and guilds die quick deaths due to the attrition that the NGE caused in the game.
3. Taken action by CANCELLING 2 accounts, to "put my money where my mouth is."
4. Along with the other underhanded business practices and contempt for it's (SOny Corporation as a whole) customers initiate a LIFELONG BOYCOTT of ALL Sony products from blank CD's to Consumer Electronics to Software (BTW if you have/had a copy of ACID 5 installed on your PC, you have the DRM "root-kit") and do what I can to educate people about HOW bad Sony's business practices are.
So please feel free to flame away, and tell me how idiotic I am for feeling this way and expressing my experiences and opinion in this thread.
It would be where you would find nothing else wrong to point out except for my spelling
Hitting the bottom of the barrel to find something wrong, not finding it, and continuing to dig past the bottom.
And fixed...
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
The worst thing of all is that most of your players know they were just plain 'sold out' by SOE in an attempt to win over players of WoW and that SOE really thought that most players would put up with this and wouldn't cancel their accounts. It's like blatantly saying "We think you're all idiots and would be too stupid to know we sold you out in an attempt to win a few new customers from WoW, now just send in that monthly paymet like a good little chump." and really the only suprise for them was way more people cancelled than their study/focus groups had counted on. Think about it people. They really thought they could just shove off that low budget game change, that even months later after launch wouldn't be considered good enough for Beta material in many other MMO's, onto the playerbase and they'd just send in that monthly payment like good little sheep.
That is a total slap in the face to me and it's the number one reason why I'll never play another SOE game again. After playing EQ1 for years before SWG and all the same problems that seem commen in other SOE games is the second biggest reason I'll never play another SOE game. I have paid for 2 games that were chock full of bugs, some of which never get fixed or ignored for months on end, had endless cycles of nerfs, changes to combat and proffs/classes that make your characters useless for months and therefor also the effort you spent in buiding that character, multiple 'combat upgrades' or 'revamps' that totaly changed how combat operated, and dozenss of other problems that are seem rampant in most of the SOE games including MxO and EQ2.
Granted even both of them had some problems in their early years there they were great fun to play in the beginning but they aren't worth putting up with that type of crap in the long run.
what do you mean prove it? the population was posted back when the game came out, it was around 500k-700k. and why dont you prove me wrong? you always say that were wrong, but how do you know if its more or less then 50k subs? And yeah i get where your coming from when people draw people away when they ask if this game is any good. But honestly if i am going to try out a new game, i would go to the games site, and check it out. Considering its straight information, and not misleading, its right from the core info.
still waitin on an answer squidi .... what are the numbers?? considering you shoot down every other number.
Lord squidi knows all!!!
all knowing
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
A person can get pissed at ANYTHING at all at any time.
It is completely plausable that people get pissed off at hypothetical occurances.
And it is perfectly possible to get hypothetically pissed.
Really. It is.
_______________________
Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
i dont know if enemy is the right word ...
I just think they are the 1st american company to figure out what most other countries already knew about american consumers.
The average american consumer will accept sub-standard services/products and pay full price for it because they are easily distracted by shiny baubles. This irritates me to no end when attempting to do business overseas , but it seems a few US companies finally realized its true most of the time. The average person will take crap because they are told to by the business providing the goods/services. happens everyday in every business ( mostly non US companies profit on this mentality, as its a rare US company to just adopt -The customer is stupid- approach).
They are also setting a precedent here , they are proving to all software designers that people will pay for the right to test it for you as long as you promise "it will get better in 6 months" every 6 months.
I really wonder who the next company will be that decides to float the design budget by charging for spots in a closed alpha/beta test.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.