Originally posted by vindrow Rekindle, if your going to come over here and say they are censoring you at least tell the truth, and let people know the reason behind them locking yours and others threads. You know they are locking threads because they have people making tons of threads about the same thing over and over, when there is a thread where people are taliking about this already and they are not censoring anything unless you make a personal attack on people.
You are entirely correct .....earlier in this thread I mentioned that I REGRET WHAT I SAID ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO TALK ABOUT IT on the Vanguard forums. I am deeply regretful of making that statement despite any animosity I have regarding this situation. I completly and utterly retract any statements about not being able to talk about this issue. That comment was a prime example of me speaking before thinking. Despite the negativity people are expressing about the subject Sigil has done a very good job in allowing threads on the subject and are only consolidating threads as they would in any situation.
I don't like what is happening but it was entirely unfair of me to add that little part....if I could edit the title of the thread I would.
ps. See people can indeed admit when they've made a mistake!
Not reading through all 6 pages because i'm lazy, but I should point out one glaring fact that everyone seems to be missing - SOE is the CO-publisher, not THE publisher. Sigil is also a CO-publisher.
You do realise that the vocal minority(that means you), who sits and follows the game avidly on the forum and post your rants and your opinions on these forums and on the official Vanguard forums means very little to the real outcome of the game. Vanguard will go on as always, and it will probably be as sucesfull as always, if they can fix their current beta problems and move on to release.
I've seen so absurd things such as even millions of people hate SOE as much as some of you do: No they dont. Most people dont care, just go outside and ask some other gamers for pete's sake. It's only hardcore MMORPGers that has been trhough the evil reign of SOE that cares really. I've went through the flop of SWG and Planetside, I realise it was really bad marketing moves of them, but I was more or less bored out with the games even before they released those horrible changes with both the entire proffesion system of SWG remade and the BFG's of Planetside. But I dont hate SOE with all my burning heart for this, and I assure you that the majority of all the people who play MMORPG's in the world are indifferent to SOE.
Fact is fact, all of you people represent a small fraction of the real playerbase of the game itself, and even among you there are very split thoughts of what way you want to go: Towards Vanguard or away from it. Since even you, the "elites" of MMORPG are split thought on this about the game, the rest of the people that will come with the hyping and comercials of the game that SOE and Sigil will put up, and the people that cares about a good game rather than a moral standpoint, these people will come and play the game, and the impcat on those that ride away on the morale horse will make on the game is close to minimal.
There was an expression that came to my mind when I wrote this post. It was "Spartan Politics". It means, those who shout loudest are right.
Giant_Moth, I feel you are correct that the actual numbers of SOE haters is not the majority of gamers. That being said, the major forms of advertising/publicity for MMORPG's are peer-to-peer recomendation, "What are my friends playing" and reading forums such as MMORPG.com.
A game could be the best game on the planet, but if everywhere you read people are running it down potential customers will shy away. Most people only have so much money to spend on games and they want to see if it is any good before they make that investment.
Conversely, it could be a mediocre to bad game and still have tons of fans. When SWG started it had a good following (for that time) but most would say it was incomplete and buggy. Likewise, WoW is hugely popular, but many consider it a mediocre game at best. I think these are to examples of games that were/are popular because of this new form of publicity. When all of your friends play a game, you want to play it to. If every one you talk to and every independent forum says, "This game sucks" many people will not buy it and look else where.
So, while I agree with part of what you are saying, I am afraid that this minority may have more influence on what will happen with this game than we might think.
But that's just my opinion, it and $10 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.......maybe.
I personaly dont think so, looking at personal experience. If I asked any of my gaming friends if they would not buy an MMORPG because of SOE, they would probably say no. Mostly this is because the vast majority of MMO gamers has been borned with the rise of WoW. As I said, the people that hold this incredible negativity towards SOE (dont take me wrong, I dislike them as well) are people with MMORPG history on their back. I dont believe EQ ever got more than 400.000-500.000 players at one given time, EQ2 and SWG got both less than that I believe, and many of these players were already old EQ players, moving on to a new SOE game(since at the time they were the only decent on the market).
An estimate of perhaps all SOE's popular games (EQ, EQ2, SWG and Planetside) would rise up to the number somewhere along the ride of 1 million, I think is a fair estimation?
Maybe 10% of these, or perhaps even 20% got so angry at SOE that they would refuse to buy their project, the rest perhaps went to other MMORPG's, or stoped playing MMORPG's. WoW brought in 5 million different gamers worldwide, about 2-3 in europe and USA alone, and the majority of these are not SOE-negative, since for most WoW is their first MMORPG. The MMO market just grew imensly...
Remember this though, MMORPG players is not static. Many MMOG players tend to stick to MMOG's, but many players are in and out, they plan an MMOG and then go play another genre of game. But the genre is very unique, and many who find one MMOG to his liking soon finds another. WoW players will find another game eventally, the potential customers WoW brought in will be spread about in the different games.
My point being in all this however, is that I want to say that I dont think Vanguard is dead. I think it will continue it's development and gain aproximately the same amount of customers as before. It might get more because of the SOE influence with station acces and good marketing(EQ2 was very well marketed) and it might get less because SOE might screw up marketing(microsoft might have as well) and the fact they lost people from the SOE deal. The MMOG's community about vanguard however is a bit shattered, but the MMOG community is IMHO a small part of the retail community of the game, because newer MMO gamers not as active fans within the MMOG industry dont hang around on forums like this, or on pre-retail/open beta forums either.
You are entirely correct .....earlier in this thread I mentioned that I REGRET WHAT I SAID ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO TALK ABOUT IT on the Vanguard forums. I am deeply regretful of making that statement despite any animosity I have regarding this situation. I completly and utterly retract any statements about not being able to talk about this issue. That comment was a prime example of me speaking before thinking. Despite the negativity people are expressing about the subject Sigil has done a very good job in allowing threads on the subject and are only consolidating threads as they would in any situation.
I don't like what is happening but it was entirely unfair of me to add that little part....if I could edit the title of the thread I would.
ps. See people can indeed admit when they've made a mistake!
Just wanted to give kudos to Rekindle. Very rare is the forum poster who will admit they were wrong. Congrats to you Rekindle!
Originally posted by Rigamortis Lets get a few facts straight that many seem to be overlooking. 1. Unless you are in the MMO business you are talking out of your ass when you say SOE is gonna have influence on the development of Vanguard. At very best, this is speculation and flame bait. 2. For all those that say they HATE Vanguard since it has now teamed up with SOE, I have 4 words for you. "See you in beta". There is so many hypocrital statements and unfounded speculation here it makes me feel like I am in a "blue" state. That is all.
Until the game is actually released everything is speculation. However given SOE's track record and good business sense it's a pretty safe bet that SOE will have some influence on Vanguard. SOE is not only investing money in marketing the product but will be running the servers as well. That doesn't mean running Sigil's servers...that means running Sigil's software on SOE servers. So there will be a substancial invenstment in server hardware, network hardware, network bandwidth, and the people who keep it all running. It is not good business to invest money in a product and not have a say in it's outcome. Good or bad their name is attached to the product and they will do everything they can to make sure it reflects positively on that name.
Originally posted by Giant_Moth You do realise that the vocal minority(that means you), who sits and follows the game avidly on the forum and post your rants and your opinions on these forums and on the official Vanguard forums means very little to the real outcome of the game. Vanguard will go on as always, and it will probably be as sucesfull as always, if they can fix their current beta problems and move on to release.
That's what people thought before SOE brought about the NGE. With the NGE the vocal minority raised such a ruckus that many mainstream media outlets picked up on the story and ran with it. Negative reviews flourished all over the place and SOE lost subscribers horribly. Many would be subscribers never even tried it after seeing all the negativity surrounding it. Yeah a lot of it was SOE's own doing by releasing such a horrible steaming pile of...software code...but much of it was word of mouth as well.
Originally posted by InspGadgt Originally posted by Giant_Moth You do realise that the vocal minority(that means you), who sits and follows the game avidly on the forum and post your rants and your opinions on these forums and on the official Vanguard forums means very little to the real outcome of the game. Vanguard will go on as always, and it will probably be as sucesfull as always, if they can fix their current beta problems and move on to release.
That's what people thought before SOE brought about the NGE. With the NGE the vocal minority raised such a ruckus that many mainstream media outlets picked up on the story and ran with it. Negative reviews flourished all over the place and SOE lost subscribers horribly. Many would be subscribers never even tried it after seeing all the negativity surrounding it. Yeah a lot of it was SOE's own doing by releasing such a horrible steaming pile of...software code...but much of it was word of mouth as well.
The NGE did not bring rise to the vocal minority of SWG. Indeed it was the vocal minority who brought the war the hardest on the forums and in the communities, but most people just quit. Some stayed for a while, and quit later, some quit just outright. They went on with their lives and found another game or another thing to do with their spare time, and most of them did not continue the fight because it is indeed just a computer game, and they will play a game with an SOE label on it, maybe they will be a bit suspicious, but I think to most gamers it really does not matter who makes the game, unless it's made by some people that uses child-labour in africa or something, a game is a game and is played if it's fun.
Originally posted by Giant_Moth Originally posted by InspGadgt Originally posted by Giant_Moth You do realise that the vocal minority(that means you), who sits and follows the game avidly on the forum and post your rants and your opinions on these forums and on the official Vanguard forums means very little to the real outcome of the game. Vanguard will go on as always, and it will probably be as sucesfull as always, if they can fix their current beta problems and move on to release.
That's what people thought before SOE brought about the NGE. With the NGE the vocal minority raised such a ruckus that many mainstream media outlets picked up on the story and ran with it. Negative reviews flourished all over the place and SOE lost subscribers horribly. Many would be subscribers never even tried it after seeing all the negativity surrounding it. Yeah a lot of it was SOE's own doing by releasing such a horrible steaming pile of...software code...but much of it was word of mouth as well.
The NGE did not bring rise to the vocal minority of SWG. Indeed it was the vocal minority who brought the war the hardest on the forums and in the communities, but most people just quit. Some stayed for a while, and quit later, some quit just outright. They went on with their lives and found another game or another thing to do with their spare time, and most of them did not continue the fight because it is indeed just a computer game, and they will play a game with an SOE label on it, maybe they will be a bit suspicious, but I think to most gamers it really does not matter who makes the game, unless it's made by some people that uses child-labour in africa or something, a game is a game and is played if it's fun.
The vocal minority was a lot less vocal before the NGE. Pre-NGE players were not complaining outside of the game nearly to the extent they are since the NGE. Post NGE now, from what I see as complaints from teh vocal minority, That has made an impact on potential new subscribers due to the negative reviews not just by players but by mainstream media articles in magazines and newspapers. SOE is putting back in stuff they had removed in the NGE and said would not be coming back. Things like the bounty system and target lock are back now and were never slated to come back. The only reason they are is because of the vocal minority.
Originally posted by dragonace Originally posted by Rekindle
You are entirely correct .....earlier in this thread I mentioned that I REGRET WHAT I SAID ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO TALK ABOUT IT on the Vanguard forums. I am deeply regretful of making that statement despite any animosity I have regarding this situation. I completly and utterly retract any statements about not being able to talk about this issue. That comment was a prime example of me speaking before thinking. Despite the negativity people are expressing about the subject Sigil has done a very good job in allowing threads on the subject and are only consolidating threads as they would in any situation. I don't like what is happening but it was entirely unfair of me to add that little part....if I could edit the title of the thread I would.
ps. See people can indeed admit when they've made a mistake!
Just wanted to give kudos to Rekindle. Very rare is the forum poster who will admit they were wrong. Congrats to you Rekindle!
Especially in this forum! Man, it's UGLY in here....
ya when i posted my dissapinted about SOE's involvment my thread was locked by Gimp and i was refered to one thread which read " soe to publish vanguard" lol
but every thread which praised SOE's involvment " suspiciously made by new members or low posting members" was left unlocked
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Thank you for resurrecting this highly informative old thread. There's a sticky at the top of this forum. I would've thought the haters would consider that an accomplishment and move on.
Sigil will not relenquish creative control of Vanguard so there is little or no reason to fear a SWG type of situation erupting. SOE learned some hard lessons with thier mistakes made with the SWG MMO and will not attempt to gain creative control over the content in Vanguard so ease your minds and take heart in the ability of the powers that be to learn from poor choices and mistakes made in the past.
This is so stupid , So let me ask u brillant people something if u all are so high and mighty to not play Vanguard because SOE is evil. So u guys are telling me u dont buy enything from Microsoft huh..... or wait u boycott Wal-mart products also . LOL whatever SOE is just a company like eny other company Blizzard,Microsoft,SOE, Wal-mart they are all after the almighty dollar and if u people thnk that Blizzard or eny other company is not the same way then .... You have alot to learn about the world.
PS -I dont care what SOE has done or will do i want to play Vanguard ,if and when they get involved into the game and screw it up i just go play something else.
Originally posted by Rekindle IMHO - SOE sucks the biggest suckiest suck of all the sucks--- Vanguard turns into the biggest disappointment of all time by associating with them (takes the torch from SWG - NGE)- Despite what the fancy FAQs say this is a bad move for Sigil. Now when you walk into a store to buy Vanguard Saga Of Heros it will (I'm assuming) have a big SOE logo on the box.....I would have never imagined in a million years. For over 2 years Sigil has been reading about how bad we hate SOE and they make this move...imagine. For me Brad McQuaid's vision of EQ defined everything good about it, SOE's vision defined everything that was bad. The fact Sigil has re-affiliated itself with these SOB's is just so bad. Even if they make hte best game in the world any hope of Sigil filling in **my** MMORPG gaming void is all but lost now. Discuss..........
Discuss? Ok your a complete and total idiot. A good game is a good game is a good game.. If the game is good I don't give a crap who "published" it.
Originally posted by Greyhands This is so stupid , So let me ask u brillant people something if u all are so high and mighty to not play Vanguard because SOE is evil. So u guys are telling me u dont buy enything from Microsoft huh..... or wait u boycott Wal-mart products also . LOL whatever SOE is just a company like eny other company Blizzard,Microsoft,SOE, Wal-mart they are all after the almighty dollar and if u people thnk that Blizzard or eny other company is not the same way then .... You have alot to learn about the world. PS -I dont care what SOE has done or will do i want to play Vanguard ,if and when they get involved into the game and screw it up i just go play something else. Greyhands
People like you is what make companies like SOE and Walmart big.
You say Blizzard and SOE both go for the money. You are right. But I haven't seen Blizzard using a main character of WoW to advertise Pizza Hut or another company. Not even a secondary character. Or either a small non important one. Neither I have seen they put a command in-game linked to a company so you can buy their products. Or make you see 5 or 6 advertisments every time the game starts. Have you? I don't think so, you should learn to tell the difference between making money while respecting your costumers and making money without respecting your costumers.
One thing is to make a game to earn money and another one is to make money through a game, that's what SOE is interested in. When SOE looks at you they just see 15$ every month. Period. And Brad just agreed to that.
I still see people arguing that SOE is just publishing, and will not have anything to do with the game itself. But as I have said before, Sigil and SOE are now buisness partners, and both are bound by contract to perform in some manner stipulated by thier contract. Neither company is going to enter into a potentially long term business relationship without a contract stipulating what each company is going to be responsible for.
That being said...I doubt that SOE is going to enter into a partnership where SOE has all the responsibilities, and let Sigil do whatever they want whenever they want. I have no doubt that SOE has expectations that they expect Sigil to meet wich is no doubt stipulated in thier contract. Wich if not met, could put SOE in a potentially powerfull position.
So in short....Both companies are required to perform in some manner. Both expect certain things from each other. And if SOE has expectations that are to be delivered from the Developers .......see?
Originally posted by Apache_ I still see people arguing that SOE is just publishing, and will not have anything to do with the game itself. But as I have said before, Sigil and SOE are now buisness partners, and both are bound by contract to perform in some manner stipulated by thier contract. Neither company is going to enter into a potentially long term business relationship without a contract stipulating what each company is going to be responsible for. That being said...I doubt that SOE is going to enter into a partnership where SOE has all the responsibilities, and let Sigil do whatever they want whenever they want. I have no doubt that SOE has expectations that they expect Sigil to meet wich is no doubt stipulated in thier contract. Wich if not met, could put SOE in a potentially powerfull position. So in short....Both companies are required to perform in some manner. Both expect certain things from each other. And if SOE has expectations that are to be delivered from the Developers .......see?
/Agree 100%
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Originally posted by altairzq Originally posted by Greyhands This is so stupid , So let me ask u brillant people something if u all are so high and mighty to not play Vanguard because SOE is evil. So u guys are telling me u dont buy enything from Microsoft huh..... or wait u boycott Wal-mart products also . LOL whatever SOE is just a company like eny other company Blizzard,Microsoft,SOE, Wal-mart they are all after the almighty dollar and if u people thnk that Blizzard or eny other company is not the same way then .... You have alot to learn about the world. PS -I dont care what SOE has done or will do i want to play Vanguard ,if and when they get involved into the game and screw it up i just go play something else. Greyhands
People like you is what make companies like SOE and Walmart big.
You say Blizzard and SOE both go for the money. You are right. But I haven't seen Blizzard using a main character of WoW to advertise Pizza Hut or another company. Not even a secondary character. Or either a small non important one. Neither I have seen they put a command in-game linked to a company so you can buy their products. Or make you see 5 or 6 advertisments every time the game starts. Have you? I don't think so, you should learn to tell the difference between making money while respecting your costumers and making money without respecting your costumers.
One thing is to make a game to earn money and another one is to make money through a game, that's what SOE is interested in. When SOE looks at you they just see 15$ every month. Period. And Brad just agreed to that.
Hmmm , I just wanted to quote u but whatever. Ok 1st off id like to say nice post ,u made some good points, so let me see if i can respond. About the advertisments, theres like 5 or 6 ads before every movie that u watch but u still go to the movies dont u ? Theres ads during every sitcom but u still watch ur favorite TV show dont u? A game is no different than a movie or a sitcom . Now the ordering of pizza ,do i think thats a bit overboard well of course I do, thats pretty stupid so I have to agree with u on that 1. Oh and 1 more thing u said "People like me are what make SOE and Wal-Mart big" Well champ as for Wal-Mart every 3rd dollar sold in the US is sold at a Wal-Mart so there are alot of "People like me" LOL. And about the "earn money part" So u dont think Blizzard doesnt see u as 15$ dollar a month LOL whatever . They see us as every other MMORPG see us and thats in dollars.
Greyhands People like you is what make companies like SOE and Walmart big.
You say Blizzard and SOE both go for the money. You are right. But I haven't seen Blizzard using a main character of WoW to advertise Pizza Hut or another company. Not even a secondary character. Or either a small non important one. Neither I have seen they put a command in-game linked to a company so you can buy their products. Or make you see 5 or 6 advertisments every time the game starts. Have you? I don't think so, you should learn to tell the difference between making money while respecting your costumers and making money without respecting your costumers.
One thing is to make a game to earn money and another one is to make money through a game, that's what SOE is interested in. When SOE looks at you they just see 15$ every month. Period. And Brad just agreed to that.
Hmmm , I just wanted to quote u but whatever. Ok 1st off id like to say nice post ,u made some good points, so let me see if i can respond. About the advertisments, theres like 5 or 6 ads before every movie that u watch but u still go to the movies dont u ? Theres ads during every sitcom but u still watch ur favorite TV show dont u? A game is no different than a movie or a sitcom . Now the ordering of pizza ,do i think thats a bit overboard well of course I do, thats pretty stupid so I have to agree with u on that 1. Oh and 1 more thing u said "People like me are what make SOE and Wal-Mart big" Well champ as for Wal-Mart every 3rd dollar sold in the US is sold at a Wal-Mart so there are alot of "People like me" LOL. And about the "earn money part" So u dont think Blizzard doesnt see u as 15$ dollar a month LOL whatever . They see us as every other MMORPG see us and thats in dollars.
Greyhands
People like you is what make companies like SOE and Walmart big.
You say Blizzard and SOE both go for the money. You are right. But I haven't seen Blizzard using a main character of WoW to advertise Pizza Hut or another company. Not even a secondary character. Or either a small non important one. Neither I have seen they put a command in-game linked to a company so you can buy their products. Or make you see 5 or 6 advertisments every time the game starts. Have you? I don't think so, you should learn to tell the difference between making money while respecting your costumers and making money without respecting your costumers.
One thing is to make a game to earn money and another one is to make money through a game, that's what SOE is interested in. When SOE looks at you they just see 15$ every month. Period. And Brad just agreed to that.
Hmmm , I just wanted to quote u but whatever. Ok 1st off id like to say nice post ,u made some good points, so let me see if i can respond. About the advertisments, theres like 5 or 6 ads before every movie that u watch but u still go to the movies dont u ? Theres ads during every sitcom but u still watch ur favorite TV show dont u? A game is no different than a movie or a sitcom . Now the ordering of pizza ,do i think thats a bit overboard well of course I do, thats pretty stupid so I have to agree with u on that 1. Oh and 1 more thing u said "People like me are what make SOE and Wal-Mart big" Well champ as for Wal-Mart every 3rd dollar sold in the US is sold at a Wal-Mart so there are alot of "People like me" LOL. And about the "earn money part" So u dont think Blizzard doesnt see u as 15$ dollar a month LOL whatever . They see us as every other MMORPG see us and thats in dollars.
Greyhands
People like you is what make companies like SOE and Walmart big.
You say Blizzard and SOE both go for the money. You are right. But I haven't seen Blizzard using a main character of WoW to advertise Pizza Hut or another company. Not even a secondary character. Or either a small non important one. Neither I have seen they put a command in-game linked to a company so you can buy their products. Or make you see 5 or 6 advertisments every time the game starts. Have you? I don't think so, you should learn to tell the difference between making money while respecting your costumers and making money without respecting your costumers.
One thing is to make a game to earn money and another one is to make money through a game, that's what SOE is interested in. When SOE looks at you they just see 15$ every month. Period. And Brad just agreed to that.
Hmmm , I just wanted to quote u but whatever. Ok 1st off id like to say nice post ,u made some good points, so let me see if i can respond. About the advertisments, theres like 5 or 6 ads before every movie that u watch but u still go to the movies dont u ? Theres ads during every sitcom but u still watch ur favorite TV show dont u? A game is no different than a movie or a sitcom . Now the ordering of pizza ,do i think thats a bit overboard well of course I do, thats pretty stupid so I have to agree with u on that 1.
Oh and 1 more thing u said "People like me are what make SOE and Wal-Mart big" Well champ as for Wal-Mart every 3rd dollar sold in the US is sold at a Wal-Mart so there are alot of "People like me" LOL.
And about the "earn money part" So u dont think Blizzard doesnt see u as 15$ dollar a month LOL whatever . They see us as every other MMORPG see us and thats in dollars.
Comments
You are entirely correct .....earlier in this thread I mentioned that I REGRET WHAT I SAID ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO TALK ABOUT IT on the Vanguard forums. I am deeply regretful of making that statement despite any animosity I have regarding this situation. I completly and utterly retract any statements about not being able to talk about this issue. That comment was a prime example of me speaking before thinking. Despite the negativity people are expressing about the subject Sigil has done a very good job in allowing threads on the subject and are only consolidating threads as they would in any situation.
I don't like what is happening but it was entirely unfair of me to add that little part....if I could edit the title of the thread I would.
ps. See people can indeed admit when they've made a mistake!
You do realise that the vocal minority(that means you), who sits and follows the game avidly on the forum and post your rants and your opinions on these forums and on the official Vanguard forums means very little to the real outcome of the game. Vanguard will go on as always, and it will probably be as sucesfull as always, if they can fix their current beta problems and move on to release.
I've seen so absurd things such as even millions of people hate SOE as much as some of you do: No they dont. Most people dont care, just go outside and ask some other gamers for pete's sake. It's only hardcore MMORPGers that has been trhough the evil reign of SOE that cares really. I've went through the flop of SWG and Planetside, I realise it was really bad marketing moves of them, but I was more or less bored out with the games even before they released those horrible changes with both the entire proffesion system of SWG remade and the BFG's of Planetside. But I dont hate SOE with all my burning heart for this, and I assure you that the majority of all the people who play MMORPG's in the world are indifferent to SOE.
Fact is fact, all of you people represent a small fraction of the real playerbase of the game itself, and even among you there are very split thoughts of what way you want to go: Towards Vanguard or away from it. Since even you, the "elites" of MMORPG are split thought on this about the game, the rest of the people that will come with the hyping and comercials of the game that SOE and Sigil will put up, and the people that cares about a good game rather than a moral standpoint, these people will come and play the game, and the impcat on those that ride away on the morale horse will make on the game is close to minimal.
There was an expression that came to my mind when I wrote this post. It was "Spartan Politics". It means, those who shout loudest are right.
Formerly known as Royal Arcanist
Giant_Moth, I feel you are correct that the actual numbers of SOE haters is not the majority of gamers. That being said, the major forms of advertising/publicity for MMORPG's are peer-to-peer recomendation, "What are my friends playing" and reading forums such as MMORPG.com.
A game could be the best game on the planet, but if everywhere you read people are running it down potential customers will shy away. Most people only have so much money to spend on games and they want to see if it is any good before they make that investment.
Conversely, it could be a mediocre to bad game and still have tons of fans. When SWG started it had a good following (for that time) but most would say it was incomplete and buggy. Likewise, WoW is hugely popular, but many consider it a mediocre game at best. I think these are to examples of games that were/are popular because of this new form of publicity. When all of your friends play a game, you want to play it to. If every one you talk to and every independent forum says, "This game sucks" many people will not buy it and look else where.
So, while I agree with part of what you are saying, I am afraid that this minority may have more influence on what will happen with this game than we might think.
But that's just my opinion, it and $10 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.......maybe.
any of my gaming friends if they would not buy an MMORPG because of
SOE, they would probably say no. Mostly this is because the vast
majority of MMO gamers has been borned with the rise of WoW. As I said,
the people that hold this incredible negativity towards SOE (dont take
me wrong, I dislike them as well) are people with MMORPG history on
their back. I dont believe EQ ever got more than 400.000-500.000
players at one given time, EQ2 and SWG got both less than that I
believe, and many of these players were already old EQ players, moving
on to a new SOE game(since at the time they were the only decent on the
market).
An estimate of perhaps all SOE's popular games (EQ, EQ2, SWG and
Planetside) would rise up to the number somewhere along the ride of 1
million, I think is a fair estimation?
Maybe 10% of these, or perhaps even 20% got so angry at SOE that they
would refuse to buy their project, the rest perhaps went to other
MMORPG's, or stoped playing MMORPG's. WoW brought in 5 million
different gamers worldwide, about 2-3 in europe and USA alone, and the
majority of these are not SOE-negative, since for most WoW is their
first MMORPG. The MMO market just grew imensly...
Remember this though, MMORPG players is not static. Many MMOG players
tend to stick to MMOG's, but many players are in and out, they plan an
MMOG and then go play another genre of game. But the genre is very
unique, and many who find one MMOG to his liking soon finds another.
WoW players will find another game eventally, the potential customers
WoW brought in will be spread about in the different games.
My point being in all this however, is that I want to say that I dont
think Vanguard is dead. I think it will continue it's development and
gain aproximately the same amount of customers as before. It might get
more because of the SOE influence with station acces and good
marketing(EQ2 was very well marketed) and it might get less because SOE
might screw up marketing(microsoft might have as well) and the fact
they lost people from the SOE deal. The MMOG's community about vanguard
however is a bit shattered, but the MMOG community is IMHO a small part
of the retail community of the game, because newer MMO gamers not as
active fans within the MMOG industry dont hang around on forums like
this, or on pre-retail/open beta forums either.
Formerly known as Royal Arcanist
The NGE did not bring rise to the vocal minority of SWG. Indeed it was the vocal minority who brought the war the hardest on the forums and in the communities, but most people just quit. Some stayed for a while, and quit later, some quit just outright. They went on with their lives and found another game or another thing to do with their spare time, and most of them did not continue the fight because it is indeed just a computer game, and they will play a game with an SOE label on it, maybe they will be a bit suspicious, but I think to most gamers it really does not matter who makes the game, unless it's made by some people that uses child-labour in africa or something, a game is a game and is played if it's fun.
Formerly known as Royal Arcanist
The NGE did not bring rise to the vocal minority of SWG. Indeed it was the vocal minority who brought the war the hardest on the forums and in the communities, but most people just quit. Some stayed for a while, and quit later, some quit just outright. They went on with their lives and found another game or another thing to do with their spare time, and most of them did not continue the fight because it is indeed just a computer game, and they will play a game with an SOE label on it, maybe they will be a bit suspicious, but I think to most gamers it really does not matter who makes the game, unless it's made by some people that uses child-labour in africa or something, a game is a game and is played if it's fun.
The vocal minority was a lot less vocal before the NGE. Pre-NGE players were not complaining outside of the game nearly to the extent they are since the NGE. Post NGE now, from what I see as complaints from teh vocal minority, That has made an impact on potential new subscribers due to the negative reviews not just by players but by mainstream media articles in magazines and newspapers. SOE is putting back in stuff they had removed in the NGE and said would not be coming back. Things like the bounty system and target lock are back now and were never slated to come back. The only reason they are is because of the vocal minority.
Especially in this forum! Man, it's UGLY in here....
ya when i posted my dissapinted about SOE's involvment my thread was locked by Gimp and i was refered to one thread which read " soe to publish vanguard" lol
but every thread which praised SOE's involvment " suspiciously made by new members or low posting members" was left unlocked
http://vanguard.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=296
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
IMHO
Sigil will not relenquish creative control of Vanguard so there is little or no reason to fear a SWG type of situation erupting. SOE learned some hard lessons with thier mistakes made with the SWG MMO and will not attempt to gain creative control over the content in Vanguard so ease your minds and take heart in the ability of the powers that be to learn from poor choices and mistakes made in the past.
This is so stupid , So let me ask u brillant people something if u all are so high and mighty to not play Vanguard because SOE is evil. So u guys are telling me u dont buy enything from Microsoft huh..... or wait u boycott Wal-mart products also . LOL whatever SOE is just a company like eny other company Blizzard,Microsoft,SOE, Wal-mart they are all after the almighty dollar and if u people thnk that Blizzard or eny other company is not the same way then .... You have alot to learn about the world.
PS -I dont care what SOE has done or will do i want to play Vanguard ,if and when they get involved into the game and screw it up i just go play something else.
Greyhands
to
a month
and a half
ago.
FAQ FTW
You say Blizzard and SOE both go for the money. You are right. But I haven't seen Blizzard using a main character of WoW to advertise Pizza Hut or another company. Not even a secondary character. Or either a small non important one. Neither I have seen they put a command in-game linked to a company so you can buy their products. Or make you see 5 or 6 advertisments every time the game starts. Have you? I don't think so, you should learn to tell the difference between making money while respecting your costumers and making money without respecting your costumers.
One thing is to make a game to earn money and another one is to make money through a game, that's what SOE is interested in. When SOE looks at you they just see 15$ every month. Period. And Brad just agreed to that.
I still see people arguing that SOE is just publishing, and will not have anything to do with the game itself. But as I have said before, Sigil and SOE are now buisness partners, and both are bound by contract to perform in some manner stipulated by thier contract. Neither company is going to enter into a potentially long term business relationship without a contract stipulating what each company is going to be responsible for.
That being said...I doubt that SOE is going to enter into a partnership where SOE has all the responsibilities, and let Sigil do whatever they want whenever they want. I have no doubt that SOE has expectations that they expect Sigil to meet wich is no doubt stipulated in thier contract. Wich if not met, could put SOE in a potentially powerfull position.
So in short....Both companies are required to perform in some manner. Both expect certain things from each other. And if SOE has expectations that are to be delivered from the Developers .......see?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
You say Blizzard and SOE both go for the money. You are right. But I haven't seen Blizzard using a main character of WoW to advertise Pizza Hut or another company. Not even a secondary character. Or either a small non important one. Neither I have seen they put a command in-game linked to a company so you can buy their products. Or make you see 5 or 6 advertisments every time the game starts. Have you? I don't think so, you should learn to tell the difference between making money while respecting your costumers and making money without respecting your costumers.
One thing is to make a game to earn money and another one is to make money through a game, that's what SOE is interested in. When SOE looks at you they just see 15$ every month. Period. And Brad just agreed to that.
Hmmm , I just wanted to quote u but whatever. Ok 1st off id like to say nice post ,u made some good points, so let me see if i can respond. About the advertisments, theres like 5 or 6 ads before every movie that u watch but u still go to the movies dont u ? Theres ads during every sitcom but u still watch ur favorite TV show dont u? A game is no different than a movie or a sitcom . Now the ordering of pizza ,do i think thats a bit overboard well of course I do, thats pretty stupid so I have to agree with u on that 1.
Oh and 1 more thing u said "People like me are what make SOE and Wal-Mart big" Well champ as for Wal-Mart every 3rd dollar sold in the US is sold at a Wal-Mart so there are alot of "People like me" LOL.
And about the "earn money part" So u dont think Blizzard doesnt see u as 15$ dollar a month LOL whatever . They see us as every other MMORPG see us and thats in dollars.
Greyhands
WOW, I didnt mean that to happen lol sorry about the crazy looking post
Greyhands
Ahem...
You don't see Blizzard whoring out their product for advertising dollars?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXjkfOLjeKQ&search=Warcraft%20Japan%20Commercial
Yeah...there goes your argument out the window.
I played SWG, EQ and EQII from SOE.... guess what, they are all good games except SWG. It used to be a "good" one.
eqnext.wikia.com