Originally posted by Novaseeker The Big Bang is a scientific theory. It is the leading scientific theory, but it remains simply that: the leading theory. Scientists have debated it for decades, among other theories, and based on the preponderance of the evidence (in particular the recent imagery from the WMAP satellite), that the Big Bang theory is true.
The method was the scientific one, which is rational: hypothesis, test, observe the data, conclusion. The "data" in this case involves the picture that the WMAP satellite rendered of the background radiation in the universe, from which, understanding the speed of light, the early situation in the universe can be readily deduced. It's the scientific method, which is based on reason.
Religious belief has nothing to do with this. The propositions of the religious world are based on revelation. Reason is trotted out to support the truths revealed in various texts, but the conclusions made in the texts, which form the basis for the religious belief system, are not rationally deduced using a rational method. They are proposed out of no rational basis and are to be believed based on faith. Therefore the system is not "rational". Something that is not "rational" is, by definition, "irrational" or "lacking in reason". The religious worldview is based on revelation, not a rational conclusion based on a hypothesis and a rational examination of the evidence. It's the exact opposite of a rational world view.
The thing about science is that it isn't neccessarily true... Science is just man's BEST EXplanation of phenomenon.... Thats why science is always changing... given light to new evidence... things/theories can be shown feasible/unfeasible.... That being said.... let me give you an example of how science works with a little analogy with law...
-------- The police spot a man on top of a woman in an alley in the 70s... She is raped and dies on the way to the hospital. they find his hair and skin cells under her fingernails. and fluid on her.. They arrest him and charge him for rape and murder. That is a REALLY good explanation and probably right... Does it mean that was the truth? Not neccessarily.... He may not have been the one to commit the crime... He might have been there to help her or something... But in the 70s.. The best explanation Rules... Then Science comes through with DNA.... it's found that What was previously the BEST Explanation... is not so any longer... the fluid on her body is tested... and its not the guy... Now their world view changes.. things that were once true.. are no longer, true... ----------------
I repeat.. Science isn't the truth.... its the Best explanation of natural phenomenon. It just MIGHT BE TRUTH!!! but... we never know.. since it's just best explanation. But I'm a man of science so I lean towards Science's explanation to be true...
When someone has an experience like a miracle... or a prayer answered or something turning around that just doesn't fit with science... Sometimes we can't just accept the catch all explanation that atheists give that "Science will explain it someday"...
No, the point is that science posits theories. You can examine them yourself and choose whether you are convinced by the method, the reasoning and the like. It's reason-based, and as more knowledge is discovered we learn more. It's progressive in that way. It doesn't claim to be "ultimately true", it only claims that its theories are rationally based and supported by evidence (either modest evidence in the case of an "emerging" theory or overwhelming evidence in the case of an established or proven theory). I would argue, metaphysically, that a "proven" theory is no longer a theory, it is simply true as far as it goes unless and until contrary, convincing evidence comes to light to supplant the theory. It's a progressive approach based on testing, evidence and reasoned deduction.
Miracles and prayers are not subject to testing, evidence or deduction. You can believe them if you wish, but your belief in them is not in any way based on reason, it's based on belief.
I choose to live my life based on reason. Do we have "all the answers" yet? No. Will we ever? I don't know. But what I do know is that I am not going to base my life on something that is not derived from reason, as religion is.
Originally posted by Novaseeker No, the point is that science posits theories. You can examine them yourself and choose whether you are convinced by the method, the reasoning and the like. It's reason-based, and as more knowledge is discovered we learn more. It's progressive in that way. It doesn't claim to be "ultimately true", it only claims that its theories are rationally based and supported by evidence (either modest evidence in the case of an "emerging" theory or overwhelming evidence in the case of an established or proven theory). I would argue, metaphysically, that a "proven" theory is no longer a theory, it is simply true as far as it goes unless and until contrary, convincing evidence comes to light to supplant the theory. It's a progressive approach based on testing, evidence and reasoned deduction.
Miracles and prayers are not subject to testing, evidence or deduction. You can believe them if you wish, but your belief in them is not in any way based on reason, it's based on belief.
I choose to live my life based on reason. Do we have "all the answers" yet? No. Will we ever? I don't know. But what I do know is that I am not going to base my life on something that is not derived from reason, as religion is.
I'm glad you understand that science doesn't claim to be ultimate truth... Most people don't realize that. I am impressed. Anyways.. How many dimensions exist? I know you're gonna say well that is just theory... But pretty much many scientists have accepted that there are more than three dimensions.. Well how do we prove the existance of multiple dimensions? Look... Science has no problems believing in things.. that they DONt even know how to TEst yet...
Physics is a great joke... There is one form of physics but there are problems when things get complicated... So Einstien makes another form of physics that explains the problems of the first form of physics... But has it's own problems and gets really complicated... Then String theory comes in... And fixes the problems of the Einstien class physics... But it has problems of its own... one being that no one knows how to test it... Physics is my favorite science... Do you see how they dont even bother knowing if something is true... All they care is if it works. You believe that right? you believe in physics? But i guess it's reasonable to believe in mutliple dimensions for you... Not a problem though.. I believe in multiple dimensions too
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
I like your story.. about Eratosthenes... But what makes you believe this is true? Why do you think it really happened? You believe it because someone wrote it down. Not because you have really evidence of this experiment... Not because you have empiricle evidence of his existence... But because someone wrote about him... Anyways Let me continue... Lets assume that date of 200 BC ... The people before 200 BC didn't believe the earth was flat because they tested out theory upon theory to make sure it was right... They just believed because their View of the world which probable maked ALOT of sense at that time is that the world was flat.. there was nothing to prove otherwize... Dont think that we humans are soo perfect that we have exercized everything and proved everything (or most things) under the sun... If you do well... I have nothing to say to you..
Oh the irony. Here you are doubting Nimuel's story, because "someone wrote it down" and that he "doesnt have evidence," yet, You believe every word the bible has to tell you, and (no matter if you want to believe it or not) it was written by man, and there is no evidence that it is actually truthfull.
Originally posted by Xexima Oh the irony. Here you are doubting Nimuel's story, because "someone wrote it down" and that he "doesnt have evidence," yet, You believe every word the bible has to tell you, and (no matter if you want to believe it or not) it was written by man, and there is no evidence that it is actually truthfull.
Actually I dont disbelieve his story at all.. I think it is very true and probably happened.. I'm just saying... Sometimes our "beliefs" are not actually based on Scientific proofs. He believes in this person because people have written about him.... But I guess he will say that his belief in this man is more justified than my belief in the bible because of certain things.. Understandable .... Or maybe because they are two totally different things? ..I know that... I'm just showing that not everything has to be falsifiable, testable, and observable...Some times you just ....believe....
Math is written by man... It's tests and proofs are written by man... Physics, Science... Religion alll written and created by man.... socalled prooved by man... observed by man... If you think i should not follow to the bible because it was written by man... Why do you go to school and learn US history? that was written by man... how do you know it's true.. Science... all that stuff...
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by Novaseeker The Big Bang is a scientific theory. It is the leading scientific theory, but it remains simply that: the leading theory. Scientists have debated it for decades, among other theories, and based on the preponderance of the evidence (in particular the recent imagery from the WMAP satellite), that the Big Bang theory is true.
The method was the scientific one, which is rational: hypothesis, test, observe the data, conclusion. The "data" in this case involves the picture that the WMAP satellite rendered of the background radiation in the universe, from which, understanding the speed of light, the early situation in the universe can be readily deduced. It's the scientific method, which is based on reason.
Religious belief has nothing to do with this. The propositions of the religious world are based on revelation. Reason is trotted out to support the truths revealed in various texts, but the conclusions made in the texts, which form the basis for the religious belief system, are not rationally deduced using a rational method. They are proposed out of no rational basis and are to be believed based on faith. Therefore the system is not "rational". Something that is not "rational" is, by definition, "irrational" or "lacking in reason". The religious worldview is based on revelation, not a rational conclusion based on a hypothesis and a rational examination of the evidence. It's the exact opposite of a rational world view.
The thing about science is that it isn't neccessarily true... Science is just man's BEST EXplanation of phenomenon.... Thats why science is always changing... given light to new evidence... things/theories can be shown feasible/unfeasible.... That being said.... let me give you an example of how science works with a little analogy with law...
-------- The police spot a man on top of a woman in an alley in the 70s... She is raped and dies on the way to the hospital. they find his hair and skin cells under her fingernails. and fluid on her.. They arrest him and charge him for rape and murder. That is a REALLY good explanation and probably right... Does it mean that was the truth? Not neccessarily.... He may not have been the one to commit the crime... He might have been there to help her or something... But in the 70s.. The best explanation Rules... Then Science comes through with DNA.... it's found that What was previously the BEST Explanation... is not so any longer... the fluid on her body is tested... and its not the guy... Now their world view changes.. things that were once true.. are no longer, true... ----------------
I repeat.. Science isn't the truth.... its the Best explanation of natural phenomenon. It just MIGHT BE TRUTH!!! but... we never know.. since it's just best explanation. But I'm a man of science so I lean towards Science's explanation to be true...
When someone has an experience like a miracle... or a prayer answered or something turning around that just doesn't fit with science... Sometimes we can't just accept the catch all explanation that atheists give that "Science will explain it someday"...
Science may not know all the truths about everything, but at least it does two things right that religion does not.
One it doesnt try to claim it knows all the truths but seeks new ways of finding it.
And two, where it doesnt know the truth it tries to find out.
Religion on the other hand claims it already knows everything and then proceeds to insult your intelligence by telling you it doesnt have to present you with evidence. And then on top of that it never tries to seek the true answers to things. If something happens it cant explain, poof its a miracle.
I say complete humble ignorrance FTW. Because when it gets right down to it, isn't that really the only thing we can all really claim to have.
Nice one.. Totally agree.. LOL
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by porgie Originally posted by TomBlaze Atheism 4tw!
I say complete humble ignorrance FTW. Because when it gets right down to it, isn't that really the only thing we can all really claim to have.
No...
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration - courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth." - Henry Mencken
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
"And what would you do with a brain if you had one?" - Wizard of Oz
I say complete humble ignorrance FTW. Because when it gets right down to it, isn't that really the only thing we can all really claim to have.
Nice one.. Totally agree.. LOL
You are a Christian methan, you cant agree with his statement , it would be denying you God (and say that maybe He doesnt exist since you dont know if He does or doesnt) and then going to hell
Or maybe I realize that Human's intellect is limited.. And No matter how much we try we can never even scratch the surfuce of God's Mind. and even if we could our head would explode from all the information
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Comments
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The police spot a man on top of a woman in an alley in the 70s... She is raped and dies on the way to the hospital. they find his hair and skin cells under her fingernails. and fluid on her.. They arrest him and charge him for rape and murder.
That is a REALLY good explanation and probably right... Does it mean that was the truth? Not neccessarily.... He may not have been the one to commit the crime... He might have been there to help her or something... But in the 70s.. The best explanation Rules... Then Science comes through with DNA.... it's found that What was previously the BEST Explanation... is not so any longer... the fluid on her body is tested... and its not the guy... Now their world view changes.. things that were once true.. are no longer, true...
----------------
I repeat.. Science isn't the truth.... its the Best explanation of natural phenomenon. It just MIGHT BE TRUTH!!! but... we never know.. since it's just best explanation. But I'm a man of science so I lean towards Science's explanation to be true...
When someone has an experience like a miracle... or a prayer answered or something turning around that just doesn't fit with science... Sometimes we can't just accept the catch all explanation that atheists give that "Science will explain it someday"...
No, the point is that science posits theories. You can examine them yourself and choose whether you are convinced by the method, the reasoning and the like. It's reason-based, and as more knowledge is discovered we learn more. It's progressive in that way. It doesn't claim to be "ultimately true", it only claims that its theories are rationally based and supported by evidence (either modest evidence in the case of an "emerging" theory or overwhelming evidence in the case of an established or proven theory). I would argue, metaphysically, that a "proven" theory is no longer a theory, it is simply true as far as it goes unless and until contrary, convincing evidence comes to light to supplant the theory. It's a progressive approach based on testing, evidence and reasoned deduction.
Miracles and prayers are not subject to testing, evidence or deduction. You can believe them if you wish, but your belief in them is not in any way based on reason, it's based on belief.
I choose to live my life based on reason. Do we have "all the answers" yet? No. Will we ever? I don't know. But what I do know is that I am not going to base my life on something that is not derived from reason, as religion is.
Physics is a great joke... There is one form of physics but there are problems when things get complicated... So Einstien makes another form of physics that explains the problems of the first form of physics... But has it's own problems and gets really complicated... Then String theory comes in... And fixes the problems of the Einstien class physics... But it has problems of its own... one being that no one knows how to test it... Physics is my favorite science... Do you see how they dont even bother knowing if something is true... All they care is if it works. You believe that right? you believe in physics? But i guess it's reasonable to believe in mutliple dimensions for you... Not a problem though.. I believe in multiple dimensions too
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Math is written by man... It's tests and proofs are written by man... Physics, Science... Religion alll written and created by man.... socalled prooved by man... observed by man... If you think i should not follow to the bible because it was written by man... Why do you go to school and learn US history? that was written by man... how do you know it's true.. Science... all that stuff...
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
--------
The police spot a man on top of a woman in an alley in the 70s... She is raped and dies on the way to the hospital. they find his hair and skin cells under her fingernails. and fluid on her.. They arrest him and charge him for rape and murder.
That is a REALLY good explanation and probably right... Does it mean that was the truth? Not neccessarily.... He may not have been the one to commit the crime... He might have been there to help her or something... But in the 70s.. The best explanation Rules... Then Science comes through with DNA.... it's found that What was previously the BEST Explanation... is not so any longer... the fluid on her body is tested... and its not the guy... Now their world view changes.. things that were once true.. are no longer, true...
----------------
I repeat.. Science isn't the truth.... its the Best explanation of natural phenomenon. It just MIGHT BE TRUTH!!! but... we never know.. since it's just best explanation. But I'm a man of science so I lean towards Science's explanation to be true...
When someone has an experience like a miracle... or a prayer answered or something turning around that just doesn't fit with science... Sometimes we can't just accept the catch all explanation that atheists give that "Science will explain it someday"...
Science may not know all the truths about everything, but at least it does two things right that religion does not.
One it doesnt try to claim it knows all the truths but seeks new ways of finding it.
And two, where it doesnt know the truth it tries to find out.
Religion on the other hand claims it already knows everything and then proceeds to insult your intelligence by telling you it doesnt have to present you with evidence. And then on top of that it never tries to seek the true answers to things. If something happens it cant explain, poof its a miracle.
Atheism 4tw!
-----------------------
</OBAMA>
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
No...
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration - courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth." - Henry Mencken
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
"And what would you do with a brain if you had one?" - Wizard of Oz
You are a Christian methan, you cant agree with his statement
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>