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SOE Begins to blame the players for the Restuss Failure
MX13
Member Posts: 2,489
I can't believe these guys...
I sent a pm to Garva about Restuss last night. This is his reply:
Re: Feedback?
I was there, it wasn't a disaster, it was clientside laggy for sure but when there are 300 or so people around and you are totally switching the location dynamically it is kinda expected.
I am sure they can probably improve the performance but given the circumstances I doubt ANY current mmo could handle that many people AND that type of dynamic change to the landscape, along with npc's and battle any better.
*************
I call BS, and I told him so...
These guys are a disgrace.
Edit: Here's a link to the message...
http://imagedump.us/image.php?q=www.imagedump.us/uploads/1ff0b4a5c6.jpg
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Comments
How the hell can you be sure of something if it can only probably be done?
tool
complete vagueness by devs ftw
This is why SOE is getting rid of them.
From internal memo:
From: Helios
To: J. Smedley, J. Torres
Re: Future plan
Well, we've analyzed all aspects of the game. We're right on track. But there's a problem we can't resolve. We realized, that every single problem we ever had can be tracked back to players. This problem needs to be solved once and for all. We're currently already on good track at solving the problem, we expect the remainder of playerbase to be gone by the end of the year.
- Helios
-----------
From: J. Smedley
To: Helios
Re: Re: Future Plan
Sounds good. Try to get remove the player base before PS3 launch. It would help us a lot.
-----------
From: J. Torres
To: Helios
Re: Re: Future Plan
Too long, smry plz. But I do have tons if iconic and starwarsy suggestions, let me know when I can force them upon you.
I have a very sorry-looking mental picture in my head now
great analogy
_____
When Sony and Lucas set out to create the NGE, we said, How can we do this and make it similar to WoW? We wanted it to be all about Iconic characters like Luke, combat and locking our players into a class. So we created a system that would restrict players and make all professions the same and there would be minimal gameplay around making that change. We definitely borrowed a lot of ideas from WoW that worked and figured out how to make them fit for SWG Julio Torres (2005)
The two servers that are bugged are about to go down...
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=963300#M963300
I sent a pm to Garva about Restuss last night. This is his reply:
Re: Feedback?
I was there, it wasn't a disaster, it was clientside laggy for sure but when there are 300 or so people around and you are totally switching the location dynamically it is kinda expected.
I am sure they can probably improve the performance but given the circumstances I doubt ANY current mmo could handle that many people AND that type of dynamic change to the landscape, along with npc's and battle any better.
*************
I call BS, and I told him so...
I am not sure what part of this reply from Garva is blaming the player base for anything. Is there more to the post that has not been posted. Thank you for your time.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
I appreciate the information, but what does it have to do with the Blame being passed to players? If anything, the posts you referance point out an error that in no way could have been blamed on the player base.
It's good info though, I'd start a post about it, or reply to the earlier "They broke the servers" post from last night.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
After upgrading to 1GB RAM (this was pre-cu) I can remember being in a 200 person battle with no issues.
For shits sake, lets say what Garva said is true...it was client side lag....the Devs would know the limit of what the client can do...like he said "I doubt ANY current MMO could handle that many people" THEN WHY OH WHY WOULD OYU MAKE YOUR FIRST MAJOR POST NGE CONENT ADDITION A HUGE PVP EVENT THAT YOU "KNOW" THE CLIENTS CAN'T HANDLE???????
And FWIW what he said was BS....
After upgrading to 1GB RAM (this was pre-cu) I can remember being in a 200 person battle with no issues.
For shits sake, lets say what Garva said is true...it was client side lag....the Devs would know the limit of what the client can do...like he said "I doubt ANY current MMO could handle that many people" THEN WHY OH WHY WOULD OYU MAKE YOUR FIRST MAJOR POST NGE CONENT ADDITION A HUGE PVP EVENT THAT YOU "KNOW" THE CLIENTS CAN'T HANDLE???????
And FWIW what he said was BS....
Pre-cu SWG would of reacted the same way to such an event , CU as well . The system has always bogged down always . Bloodfin used to have 100+on 100+ battles almost every night Pre-cu . Everytime they were lag fests ,but they were fun .
Rememeber trying to PVP around a packed cantina pre-cu ? The second anyone initiated combat everything slowed to a crawl until you got far enough away . Most games would react the same way . This is network lag we are talking about , I have the best cable connection available in my area . I get lag all the time in big battles, Past or present I also have 2 gigs . My screen rate doesn't really drop , My specials won't fire is the problem . I remember Pre-cu lag so bad my attacks would go off 10 mins after I was dead and couldn't clone.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
After upgrading to 1GB RAM (this was pre-cu) I can remember being in a 200 person battle with no issues.
For shits sake, lets say what Garva said is true...it was client side lag....the Devs would know the limit of what the client can do...like he said "I doubt ANY current MMO could handle that many people" THEN WHY OH WHY WOULD OYU MAKE YOUR FIRST MAJOR POST NGE CONENT ADDITION A HUGE PVP EVENT THAT YOU "KNOW" THE CLIENTS CAN'T HANDLE???????
And FWIW what he said was BS....
Pre-cu SWG would of reacted the same way to such an event , CU as well . The system has always bogged down always . Bloodfin used to have 100+on 100+ battles almost every night Pre-cu . Everytime they were lag fests ,but they were fun .
Rememeber trying to PVP around a packed cantina pre-cu ? The second anyone initiated combat everything slowed to a crawl until you got far enough away . Most games would react the same way . This is network lag we are talking about , I have the best cable connection available in my area . I get lag all the time in big battles, Past or present I also have 2 gigs . My screen rate doesn't really drop , My specials won't fire is the problem . I remember Pre-cu lag so bad my attacks would go off 10 mins after I was dead and couldn't clone.
Exc except this TIME people were able to ask them about this prior to these going live.
DO we all now need to keep posting the quotes from the Dev team claiming that they could handle the load there? Not to mention other issues with it.
The difference is that before: They never claimed there would not be lag in battles and depending on the amount of people it could get worse.
This time: They claimed the system and planet could handle it with no problem and all would work fine.... crap I think Grant said this more then once even.
Again the promise/deliver system at it's best.
It would be one thing if these people said: "Hey we may have issues and run into some lag or client side issues"/// NOPE that is NOT what these people (THE so called leaders of know-how) said.
Again, this idea and concept does not work with this engine plain and simple, people told them, expressed this-- even in interviews it was asked I think... we all know how those responses go.
It's just one more blunder to add... but it even got to the NGErs--- so thats even better.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
After upgrading to 1GB RAM (this was pre-cu) I can remember being in a 200 person battle with no issues.
For shits sake, lets say what Garva said is true...it was client side lag....the Devs would know the limit of what the client can do...like he said "I doubt ANY current MMO could handle that many people" THEN WHY OH WHY WOULD OYU MAKE YOUR FIRST MAJOR POST NGE CONENT ADDITION A HUGE PVP EVENT THAT YOU "KNOW" THE CLIENTS CAN'T HANDLE???????
And FWIW what he said was BS....
Pre-cu SWG would of reacted the same way to such an event , CU as well . The system has always bogged down always . Bloodfin used to have 100+on 100+ battles almost every night Pre-cu . Everytime they were lag fests ,but they were fun .
Rememeber trying to PVP around a packed cantina pre-cu ? The second anyone initiated combat everything slowed to a crawl until you got far enough away . Most games would react the same way . This is network lag we are talking about , I have the best cable connection available in my area . I get lag all the time in big battles, Past or present I also have 2 gigs . My screen rate doesn't really drop , My specials won't fire is the problem . I remember Pre-cu lag so bad my attacks would go off 10 mins after I was dead and couldn't clone.
I can vouch for this. Back in the day me and my wife lived on Lok and we would farm corsairs and what not at the volcano, there would be times where my specials would stop firing, 2 minutes later it would flash, id be dead with 3 pirates and a Kimolinga walking away from my corpse, and id be shotting off fan shots at the pirates while lying there.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
Pre-cu SWG would of reacted the same way to such an event , CU as well . The system has always bogged down always . Bloodfin used to have 100+on 100+ battles almost every night Pre-cu . Everytime they were lag fests ,but they were fun .
Rememeber trying to PVP around a packed cantina pre-cu ? The second anyone initiated combat everything slowed to a crawl until you got far enough away . Most games would react the same way . This is network lag we are talking about , I have the best cable connection available in my area . I get lag all the time in big battles, Past or present I also have 2 gigs . My screen rate doesn't really drop , My specials won't fire is the problem . I remember Pre-cu lag so bad my attacks would go off 10 mins after I was dead and couldn't clone.
I see, so the same problem with the DEVs still exits. Creating more problems by rolling out stuff that won't work instead of fixing the core issues.
Hmmm..... this is a design issue that was made worse by the NGE, not a technological issue. And there are ways to solve that. Your frame rate didn't drop, but the underlying protocol for the specials is likely defective.
After upgrading to 1GB RAM (this was pre-cu) I can remember being in a 200 person battle with no issues.
For shits sake, lets say what Garva said is true...it was client side lag....the Devs would know the limit of what the client can do...like he said "I doubt ANY current MMO could handle that many people" THEN WHY OH WHY WOULD OYU MAKE YOUR FIRST MAJOR POST NGE CONENT ADDITION A HUGE PVP EVENT THAT YOU "KNOW" THE CLIENTS CAN'T HANDLE???????
And FWIW what he said was BS....
Pre-cu SWG would of reacted the same way to such an event , CU as well . The system has always bogged down always . Bloodfin used to have 100+on 100+ battles almost every night Pre-cu . Everytime they were lag fests ,but they were fun .
Rememeber trying to PVP around a packed cantina pre-cu ? The second anyone initiated combat everything slowed to a crawl until you got far enough away . Most games would react the same way . This is network lag we are talking about , I have the best cable connection available in my area . I get lag all the time in big battles, Past or present I also have 2 gigs . My screen rate doesn't really drop , My specials won't fire is the problem . I remember Pre-cu lag so bad my attacks would go off 10 mins after I was dead and couldn't clone.
If you played on Bloodfin then you should remember the battles between my guild NDC and MASC city, way more people than this event had at it, But only once do I remember the server crashing from it. IMHO the lag is worse than it was preCu around say publish 9 and 10. For some reason there is also more packet loss in the NGE. This type of game is just not designed to run this type of combat system efficiently. Back to the drawing board with this one. They can still claim that they were the first to try it (fps based targeting system in a large scale MMO).
After upgrading to 1GB RAM (this was pre-cu) I can remember being in a 200 person battle with no issues.
For shits sake, lets say what Garva said is true...it was client side lag....the Devs would know the limit of what the client can do...like he said "I doubt ANY current MMO could handle that many people" THEN WHY OH WHY WOULD OYU MAKE YOUR FIRST MAJOR POST NGE CONENT ADDITION A HUGE PVP EVENT THAT YOU "KNOW" THE CLIENTS CAN'T HANDLE???????
And FWIW what he said was BS....
Pre-cu SWG would of reacted the same way to such an event , CU as well . The system has always bogged down always . Bloodfin used to have 100+on 100+ battles almost every night Pre-cu . Everytime they were lag fests ,but they were fun .
Rememeber trying to PVP around a packed cantina pre-cu ? The second anyone initiated combat everything slowed to a crawl until you got far enough away . Most games would react the same way . This is network lag we are talking about , I have the best cable connection available in my area . I get lag all the time in big battles, Past or present I also have 2 gigs . My screen rate doesn't really drop , My specials won't fire is the problem . I remember Pre-cu lag so bad my attacks would go off 10 mins after I was dead and couldn't clone.
If you played on Bloodfin then you should remember the battles between my guild NDC and MASC city, way more people than this event had at it, But only once do I remember the server crashing from it. IMHO the lag is worse than it was preCu around say publish 9 and 10. For some reason there is also more packet loss in the NGE. This type of game is just not designed to run this type of combat system efficiently. Back to the drawing board with this one. They can still claim that they were the first to try it (fps based targeting system in a large scale MMO).
You're missing the point , Anytime large scale crowds have gathered to do anything past or present . And the Devs throw in a crap load of NPCs on top of it . Everything has went to hell .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
After upgrading to 1GB RAM (this was pre-cu) I can remember being in a 200 person battle with no issues.
For shits sake, lets say what Garva said is true...it was client side lag....the Devs would know the limit of what the client can do...like he said "I doubt ANY current MMO could handle that many people" THEN WHY OH WHY WOULD OYU MAKE YOUR FIRST MAJOR POST NGE CONENT ADDITION A HUGE PVP EVENT THAT YOU "KNOW" THE CLIENTS CAN'T HANDLE???????
And FWIW what he said was BS....
Pre-cu SWG would of reacted the same way to such an event , CU as well . The system has always bogged down always . Bloodfin used to have 100+on 100+ battles almost every night Pre-cu . Everytime they were lag fests ,but they were fun .
Rememeber trying to PVP around a packed cantina pre-cu ? The second anyone initiated combat everything slowed to a crawl until you got far enough away . Most games would react the same way . This is network lag we are talking about , I have the best cable connection available in my area . I get lag all the time in big battles, Past or present I also have 2 gigs . My screen rate doesn't really drop , My specials won't fire is the problem . I remember Pre-cu lag so bad my attacks would go off 10 mins after I was dead and couldn't clone.
I agree with most of what you've said, but Lag is MUCH worse now.
Pre-CU I too regularly waged battle in largescale PVP, usually up to 200 people (oh, the B&A wars...). I'm VERY familar with Lag, and even have Fraps from those days. Lag was there, and did tend to spike at the hotspots.
However, I also played the Restuss Event on TC and warned of this debacle. There were no more than 120 people there, and the lag was 10x worse than anything I ever experienced Pre or CU. I've explained it before, but simply put, this is due to increased command verifications, and more verifications having to occur regularly. If you have not watched the videos, please do. There are at least one for each server, and they were ALL beyond reasonable lag.
So why is it more laggy? Simply put, Pre-NGE there was slower combat & target lock. The server knew that you were "clicked" on a particular target. When you started to Queue Commands, the server knew your target, and only changes target when you clicked/tabbed onto a new target. Now, there is free-fire. There is also still a Queue. Now, everytime you fire, you are Queueing a command, and when those commands get backed up with specials, the Server has to verify you are still targeted onto your target. Doing so sends a verification that was not required Pre-NGE. Add to that the 8x increase in the average combat action speed, your create a bottleneck nightmare. This was confirmed when Helios began speaking about Target Lock to Improve Lag issues in Largescale PVP.
An Analogy would be: You buy the best off-road vehical available, and then 2 years later you decide that sportscars are in, so you convert it into a sportscar. No matter what you do, it's still a 2 year-old off-roader under the hood. Think of those Mexican Trucks you see with the Indy Wheels... they don't help it go faster.
You just shouldn't exchange a working / fun system for an underdeveloped / unintended system, especially on an old egine not designed for that type of play.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
Pre-cu SWG would of reacted the same way to such an event , CU as well . The system has always bogged down always . Bloodfin used to have 100+on 100+ battles almost every night Pre-cu . Everytime they were lag fests ,but they were fun .
Rememeber trying to PVP around a packed cantina pre-cu ? The second anyone initiated combat everything slowed to a crawl until you got far enough away . Most games would react the same way . This is network lag we are talking about , I have the best cable connection available in my area . I get lag all the time in big battles, Past or present I also have 2 gigs . My screen rate doesn't really drop , My specials won't fire is the problem . I remember Pre-cu lag so bad my attacks would go off 10 mins after I was dead and couldn't clone.
I see, so the same problem with the DEVs still exits. Creating more problems by rolling out stuff that won't work instead of fixing the core issues.
Hmmm..... this is a design issue that was made worse by the NGE, not a technological issue. And there are ways to solve that. Your frame rate didn't drop, but the underlying protocol for the specials is likely defective.
Yep
Oww that one hurt my eyes .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
After upgrading to 1GB RAM (this was pre-cu) I can remember being in a 200 person battle with no issues.
For shits sake, lets say what Garva said is true...it was client side lag....the Devs would know the limit of what the client can do...like he said "I doubt ANY current MMO could handle that many people" THEN WHY OH WHY WOULD OYU MAKE YOUR FIRST MAJOR POST NGE CONENT ADDITION A HUGE PVP EVENT THAT YOU "KNOW" THE CLIENTS CAN'T HANDLE???????
And FWIW what he said was BS....
Pre-cu SWG would of reacted the same way to such an event , CU as well . The system has always bogged down always . Bloodfin used to have 100+on 100+ battles almost every night Pre-cu . Everytime they were lag fests ,but they were fun .
Rememeber trying to PVP around a packed cantina pre-cu ? The second anyone initiated combat everything slowed to a crawl until you got far enough away . Most games would react the same way . This is network lag we are talking about , I have the best cable connection available in my area . I get lag all the time in big battles, Past or present I also have 2 gigs . My screen rate doesn't really drop , My specials won't fire is the problem . I remember Pre-cu lag so bad my attacks would go off 10 mins after I was dead and couldn't clone.
I agree with most of what you've said, but Lag is MUCH worse now.
Pre-CU I too regularly waged battle in largescale PVP, usually up to 200 people (oh, the B&A wars...). I'm VERY familar with Lag, and even have Fraps from those days. Lag was there, and did tend to spike at the hotspots.
However, I also played the Restuss Event on TC and warned of this debacle. There were no more than 120 people there, and the lag was 10x worse than anything I ever experienced Pre or CU. I've explained it before, but simply put, this is due to increased command verifications, and more verifications having to occur regularly. If you have not watched the videos, please do. There are at least one for each server, and they were ALL beyond reasonable lag.
So why is it more laggy? Simply put, Pre-NGE there was slower combat & target lock. The server knew that you were "clicked" on a particular target. When you started to Queue Commands, the server knew your target, and only changes target when you clicked/tabbed onto a new target. Now, there is free-fire. There is also still a Queue. Now, everytime you fire, you are Queueing a command, and when those commands get backed up with specials, the Server has to verify you are still targeted onto your target. Doing so sends a verification that was not required Pre-NGE. Add to that the 8x increase in the average combat action speed, your create a bottleneck nightmare. This was confirmed when Helios began speaking about Target Lock to Improve Lag issues in Largescale PVP.
An Analogy would be: You buy the best off-road vehical available, and then 2 years later you decide that sportscars are in, so you convert it into a sportscar. No matter what you do, it's still a 2 year-old off-roader under the hood. Think of those Mexican Trucks you see with the Indy Wheels... they don't help it go faster.
You just shouldn't exchange a working / fun system for an underdeveloped / unintended system, especially on an old egine not designed for that type of play.
Yeah You can put it all that way , But you seem to be talking about what is acceptable and what is not . That wasn't my point . My point was drop a crap load of people together in combat , Then drop a crap load of npcs in combat on top of them . The server is going to crash . If there is anymore lag now , I don't think that really matters . Because I have seen the same thing I saw last night 100 times over in SWG . Hell anchorhead in the early days was sometimes worse .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
from http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=devdigest&message.id=86
TH said "1. 'Bug Fixes' is the number one item for every publish." (about 2/3rds of the way down the page)
.....and of course they're not using TC to find the bugs before pushing this stuff live. And now it's the players fault because of "clientside" issues.
These twits make far more bugs than they fix every publish/chapter/whatever. Just ridiculous. Someone please, pull the plug on this travesty of a game now. Can it even get any worse?!?!
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist