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Israel attacks Lebanon, leaving many dead
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u guys forgot, that we left lebanon in 1999, and since than we allways got attacked by Hesbollah, and allways had to defend ourself. also, when Hesbollah kidnapped 2 of our soldies, they bombed couple of cities in the area.
now if Germany would get attacked by N korea, they wont do nothing ?
This is a distortion of the truth. Hezbollah is attacking Israel because of their crimes against the palestinian people. Palestinians are summarily killed and tortured every day by Israel right now children are being maimed by Israeli attacks in Gaza and democratically elected palestinian goverment people are being imprisoned by Israel because they have been labelled "terrorists" which seems to be the label that US/UK and Israel is using for everyone who is against them.
And with no international force to stop them the only way is by force, which seems to be the only language that the Israeli goverment understands.
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its a known fact that Hesbollah is under the Iran army support and training.
Iran supply them with missles that can get up to the other side of israel.
also, they act when Iran tell them to act, so when Iran fill the strees, they pull out there doll that called Hesbollah.
and for the bombs, i dont think they will help, as i was there and saw there bunkers, u cant really see it till u are meters from the bunker itself, in a range where u can already throw grenades.
also, if they arent going to give up, its the choice, its not like they want to kill us, we only want them to stop attacking us.
and for germany, it was just an example. take any other country for example, that when will get attacked, wont do nothing but talk.
They are supported by the south Lebanese population. The only people in the area capable of taking control over them is you and Syria, and it's a job neither of you want.
I'm quite hopeful about those bombs, previously Hisbollah must have been wheeling out the Katuyskas firing them off and then quickly wheeling them back into their underground bunkers, so retaliatory artillery and airstrikes just hit the ground above. This time it will be different.
As for finding them, it's easy. Katuyskas leave a trail of smoke directing to you to their exact firing position and IR will pick out anyone looking out of trenches from the air, hopefully bunker busters will mean that they cannot duck away so easily anymore. It'a bloody serious weapon system designed especially for this sort of job. We have had a lot of success with it on similar styled battlefields. Hope it lives up to my fantasies for you.
This were not artillery, these were precision guided bombs and there is no way that they hit that place by misstake. They did it to show them that Israel (and US) can do anything they want, even attacking and killing unarmed peace keepers, and there is noone to stop them.
At ten thousand feet, one military bunker looks much the same as another. And if those bombs were so precise how come the first 14 strikes missed?
Missed? Ah so you admit they were targetting it then? And there is no misstaking this "bunker" for other targets, it has been there for over thirty years and the Israeli Assault Force got plenty of warnings before the strike that they were there.
But as usual Israel decided to break international law and open fire on a UN observation post. And they know they will get away with it because they have their big buddy US covering their ass and vetoing any kind of resolution against them.
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I don't care if they were targetting it mate.
I think that whoever was inside it felt like they were.
I don't buy into any conspiracy theories though. If they targetted it, it's because they thought it was an enemy position, or it was just next to one.
This is a distortion of the truth. Hezbollah is attacking Israel because of their crimes against the palestinian people. Palestinians are summarily killed and tortured every day by Israel right now children are being maimed by Israeli attacks in Gaza and democratically elected palestinian goverment people are being imprisoned by Israel because they have been labelled "terrorists" which seems to be the label that US/UK and Israel is using for everyone who is against them.
And with no international force to stop them the only way is by force, which seems to be the only language that the Israeli goverment understands.
Sure, we do war crime.
what about Hamas that send ppl to suicide in our cities and kill everything in there area ( what about all our childrens and womans that died in the Intifada (?))
when we left Gaza, we gave them the choise of leaving us and have peace in the area, or attack us and start a WAR, yes, now its war in Gaza to since we left the area, and made the border line clear.
now when any kind of organization kill citizens, he declared as Terror organization.
and on top of that, the Hamas want to kill all Israelies.
now, how is it possible that we do war crimes and they dont ?
Wolfang, the lvl 50 Guardian of Splitpaw - EQ2.
SuRfer of Werner - Planetside
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I think you both do.
I'm not very bothered about it either. I can see justification on all sides of this fight. I don't see anyone as in the wrong. Do what you have to do. when it's over I'll buy the beer.
i also hope that the bunker bombs will work.
Hesbollah is a commando force, they are around 35 - 40 and practiced all there life in the ways of war.
currently, they are alot more degerous than we are, and its happen to be close to vietnam war, where localized force manage to fight back big army like the US with all there technology.
if our Air force can handle the war alone, we will be very hepfull, coz when its get to the ground force, we will have lots of loses that will apeal over the continues of the war.
Wolfang, the lvl 50 Guardian of Splitpaw - EQ2.
SuRfer of Werner - Planetside
That's not something I have a problem with. Civilians die, observers die, reporters die, soldiers die. Anyone would think it's a war or something. Israeli's are no saints. But then again, neither are the other guys, and neither am I. It's not their first war either. I come from a military country, this stuff happens every fight. I have a very high respect for the military capabilities of the IDF, I don't think there is an army on the planet that could do this job better.
That old spy ship stuff in the 60's with Egypt and the American nuclear bombers makes for one hell of a story mind.
Two wrongs does not make one right. Just because a portion of Hamas commits suicide attacks does not give you the right to kill Hamas members and whatever innocent people who happens to be close to them. The IRA had a political wing but you didnt see them killed and tortured because the IRA commited terrorist attacks.
And during the intifada, and now, for every Israeli killed about 5 palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces. You know what that reminds me of? The nazi occupation of France and Poland where the killing of any nazi soldier resulted in the killing of atleast 5 french/polish people and usually the perpetrators whole family.
Dont you Israelis bomb the house of the families of suicide bombers?
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That's not something I have a problem with. Civilians die, observers die, reporters die, soldiers die. Anyone would think it's a war or something. Israeli's are no saints. But then again, neither are the other guys, and neither am I. It's not their first war either. I come from a military country, this stuff happens every fight. I have a very high respect for the military capabilities of the IDF, I don't think there is an army on the planet that could do this job better.
That old spy ship stuff in the 60's with Egypt and the American nuclear bombers makes for one hell of a story mind.
You dont have a problem with it because you cant feel sympathy for people you dont know. If the IAF was killing your family and loved ones I would bet you would care.
And what job are they doing well? Over 600 people have been killed with half of them women and children and who knows how many have been actual Hezbollah members. If that is a good job then what is a bad job?
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Two wrongs does not make one right. Just because a portion of Hamas commits suicide attacks does not give you the right to kill Hamas members and whatever innocent people who happens to be close to them. The IRA had a political wing but you didnt see them killed and tortured because the IRA commited terrorist attacks.
And during the intifada, and now, for every Israeli killed about 5 palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces. You know what that reminds me of? The nazi occupation of France and Poland where the killing of any nazi soldier resulted in the killing of atleast 5 french/polish people and usually the perpetrators whole family.
Dont you Israelis bomb the house of the families of suicide bombers?
its not portion of Hamas, its all of them.
who u think send the suiciders ?
who make the bombs ?
who give the money to the right ppl ?
and no, we dont kill civians in puruse.
when we killed them it was a mistake.
and also, u only hear about hte mistakes, so u dont really know what happen there.
one last thing, find me one country that when was in war, didnt killed civians of the other country to ?
u can compare this to the nazis, i can compare this to any other army/country and war times.
p.s. why u dont go to the Hamas leaders, and tell them anything about there terror actions ?
p.s.s
what is IRA ?
Wolfang, the lvl 50 Guardian of Splitpaw - EQ2.
SuRfer of Werner - Planetside
300 out of 600 killed in Lebanon are innocent bystanders. Thats not misstakes, thats disregard of human lives.
And you are occupying palestine and with a vastly superior millitary force are killing many more palestine people for every Israeli killed. You are also commiting act of torture against "suspected" terrorists and commiting executions of people you have decided are enemies of Israel. Many human rights organisations have reported such acts so dont even try to deny it.
Im not saying Hamas or Hezbollah are right, but neither are you. Both murderors in my eyes who think peace comes out from the barrel of a gun or whatever super high technology weapon you are using against a mainly civillian population.
The IRA short for Provisional Irish Republican Army was a paramilitary organisation who tought the british occupation of Northern Ireland was unlawful. Very much like Hamas they were labeled as a terrorrist organisation by US and UK even though they had strong support among the irish people.
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That old spy ship stuff in the 60's with Egypt and the American nuclear bombers makes for one hell of a story mind.
Im surprised how many people that blindly support Israel and accept that the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was an accident. Why would any U.S. citizen take the word of Israel over our own governement and soldiers. Im happy to see that war crimes have been filed by the survivors of the USS Liberty against Israel.
Ussliberty.org
"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "
-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk
"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
-- CIA Director Richard Helms
"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby
"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"
-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson
"The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error."
-- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)
"A nice whitewash for a group of ignorant, stupid and inept [expletive deleted]."
-- Handwritten note of August 26, 1967, by NSA Deputy Director Louis W. Tordella reacting to the Israeli court decision exonerating Israelis of blame for the Liberty attack.
"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor
"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."
-- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry
That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency
-- Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom on 3 March 2003 in an interview for Naval Institute Proceedings
Former NSA/CIA Director Admiral Bobby Inman "flatly rejected" the Cristol/Israeli claims that the attack was an accident
-- 5 March 2003 interview for Naval Institute Proceedings
Of four former NSA/CIA seniors with inside knowledge, none was aware of any agency official who dissented from the position that the attack was deliberate
-- David Walsh, writing in Naval Institute Proceedings
"It appears to me that it was not a pure case of mistaken identity."
-- Captain William L. McGonagle, Commanding Officer, USS Liberty, speaking at Arlington National Cemetery, June 8, 1997
"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."
-- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in The Washington Post, June 15, 1991, p. 14
I don't have a problem with it because I am an evil warmongering ****. From a nation of evil warmongering ****s. I understand that my way of life comes at an unholy price, and when I see others paying that same price I sympathise with their plight. I don't relate to the victim, I relate to the killer. That's where my sympathies lie. This is who I am.
I absolutely agree I would be feeling very different if that was happening to my family, but it is not. Is it happening to yours? Does this somehow reflect on your own personal experience?
The job the IDF are doing well is invading and prosecuting a retailiatory strike against Hesbollah in unfavourable terrain against a difficult enemy. They are showing excellent dicipline and soldiering skills, and despite what you think you know, are doing so with restraint and a minmum in loss of innocent life and collaterol damage. If you think your own armed forces or the armed forces of any other nation in the world could do a better job, you are very much mistaken. Whether or not you agree with this war, the prosecution of it by both sides demonstrate a very impressive degree of military acumen.
But all you see are the victims. I see them too, but I see something else than that. I don't just see the misery and injustice of war, I see the beauty. I see the highest honor and peak of human civilisation. The willingness of man to give up his own selfish life to protect the lives of his loved ones. It'a communal spirit that is the pinnacle of all that mankind can be. Hideous and beautiful in the same stroke. The greatest good and the darkest evil all at once and it fascinates me.
It doesn't matter how many times you warn me, if your command post is next to an enemy position that is killing my men, I will not give the order for my artillery to cease fire. This is a no brainer decision.
When they sent the ambulances in to rescue the wounded the bullets were still flying. There is no "stop firing" in the middle of a firefight, it's to the death.
The missiles can hit a jeep moving in high speed from far, far away. They just don't miss like this. Funny to see these bombs being promoted as the most accurate thing on this planet. But when civillians die in Iraq, Gaza and so on they aren't that accurate anymore.
This were not artillery, these were precision guided bombs and there
is no way that they hit that place by misstake. They did it to show
them that Israel (and US) can do anything they want, even attacking and
killing unarmed peace keepers, and there is noone to stop them.
At ten thousand feet, one military bunker looks much
the same as another. And if those bombs were so precise how come the
first 14 strikes missed?
The bunker was attacked by planes, tanks and some news reports even say ground troups. There where more than enough shots fired at that building. I think there where alot of shots fired at that building. But the damage was done by that guided/bomb missile. And that was a perfect clean hit. The tv images show it travel clean into one of the windows of the UN building. The tv images also show the UN building as a bigger building surrounded by a small amount of small buildings.
They were backed and supported by fellow Republicans, the U.S. and they don't have strong support amongst the Irish People.
The IRA gained indepnedance for Ireland from Great Britian in the 1920's as a popular revolutionary movement. However not all of Ireland wanted to be independant and the country seperated into Northern (those who wanted to stay) and Southern (those who chose indepenadnce). At this point the IRA splintered.
In Northern Ireland the population was not behind the IRA and the Southern Irish for whom the war was over, disowned them. Without significant public support the IRA were sidelined in Northern Ireland and their dream of a completely unified republic was never to be. In order to raise their concerns they resorted to terrorism, a series of high profile bombings and murders that would raise their political agenda back on to the negotiating table.
This campaign went on pretty much for 80 years at various tempos and levels of success until Georgel Bush cut off their financial support after 9/11. When I used to work in and around London I would see the results of these bombings weekly and be caught up in their aftermaths.
During those 70 years the British government also commited atrocities and all the rest in pursuit of the IRA. The exact nature and circumstance of these are much disputed. Currently the IRA is still active and with out it's American backing has raises it's money by daring bank heists. With world opinon and specifically American opinion disposed to terrorism as it currently is the IRA have been keeping pretty quiet of late.
Cool I shall watch the pictures later on and see if that revises my opinion. It is my expectation that the bomb is launched from the air at a target called by the ground forces and that the pilot is firing at a different bunker to that which the ground troops are asking him to.
Although I also think it is a reasonable scenario for the ground crew to have mistaken it for an enemy position and called it in to the pilot who is accurately engaging what has been described to him as an enemy target. Of I see anything on those pictures that makes me re-evaluate this belief I will of course retrun to this thread and rant about it.
Here a link to the relevant Unifil News Report. (Warning, .pdf)
I do agree however that the IDF should not examine this alone. Armies have a tendency to protect their own, even if at fault.
You know me, I don't even think it's worth examining, it won't bring anyone back. And they are still going to blow up some more civilian cars tomorrow.
It's just going to be lipservice to the media.
I don't really think it's necessary to fight a Hearts and Minds campaign unless you intend an occupation. I don't believe Israel does. I think as soon as the katuyshas are destroyed/out of ammo they will go home as fast as they can run.
Even if they don't get the launchers and I think with those new bombs they will, they have the place pretty much locked down. No one can resupply them. No cars on the roads, no planes, no ships. When they are done they are done. Unless they have a REALLY long tunnel from Beka to Syria. That would be a turn up.
Ty for the article. It seems the U.N. are taking hits from both sides, they really need to withdraw and pronto. That's no place for a non combatant. There is nothing more there they can do to help.
Donkeys on mountain paths. You'd be surprised how well that works and how much tey can carry. It surprised the Germans in Yugoslavia and Greece dring WWII, ditto the Soviets in Afghanistan.
As for hearts and minds, the Israeli have lost those. According to a Beirut radio station poll, about 87% of all Lebanese now support Hezbollah. Which means that now even a good part of the Lebanese Christians support that radical-islamist group.
Here is an interesting movie about Israel, not about the attack on Lebanon but about the Palestinian problem...
An intersting critical movie about Israel and the problems of palestinians, many views and pictures you dont see often in the medias, wether some points are well known already. The movie is from Bathsheba Ratskoff, member of the "American Media Education Foundation"and is jewish like many of their interview partner in the film. The movie might be one sided and reflects more the problems of the palestinians but is still interesting to watch and reveals shocking facts.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=peace+propaganda
Aye, excellent movie. Thank you very much for that link, spizz. That movie has a lot of facts laced with some opinions (as any work produced by a human being has bias). But that movie really does illustrate the bias in American media. Even if you don't accept a lot of what documentary says, at least accept its viewpoint in giving a greater perspective on Palestinians. This is how Palestinians and a large part (if not the majority) of the world view the conflict.
Anyone worth their salt knows there's always at least two sides to any story. At least try to understand the other side that is mostly not shown in America or understood by most Americans. Get some perspective outside of American media. We hear enough about Israel's stance and viewpoint everyday in the major media networks in America (in both "liberal" and "conservative" media). Now let's try to hear the Palestinian's viewpoint.
Another interesting link to check out is the wikipedia entry on the King David Hotel bombing. As with any wikipedia entry, you can click on links throughout the entry to keep learning more. I found it was interesting to learn that the 1977-82 prime minister of Israel was head of the Jewish terrorist group Irgun, that killed 91 civilians in the King David Hotel bombing. And just this month, Israel had an official state celebration at the site to commerate the event, despite British objections. Just goes to show how one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.