Some in this thread have attempted to make a correlation between meat eaters and obesity. I find that a flawed argument IMO. Just because someone eats meat has very little to do with their propensity for obesity. You have to look at their overall diet. Many of the best selling and successful diet/nutrition programs (Body for Life / the Abs Diet) use animal protein as an important part of their programs. (No I did not mention Atkins because it is crap.)
If someone eats to excess (either carnivore or vegetarian) of the wrong types of things then they run the risk of becoming fat, obese, or unhealthy.
The key point that a couple others posting in this thread have mentioned is the concept of moderation.
Eggs are meat! You know liquid chicken!
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
Originally posted by wardog250 Even vegetarians require nutrients found primarily in meats, Like what? I asked this question earlier but nobody can answer it. Which is understandable because it's false. so in order for them to get them, they have to take substances and eat tastless veggie meat products. It's healthy for anyone to take supplements...even meat eaters. Are you telling me and all your meat eating buddies have a flawless diet with no deficiencies??? ROFL!!!!!!!! If they are refusing to eat meat because they don't want to hurt a living creature, well techincally plants are living organisms too, I'm sure it hurt like hell when they were ripped out of they ground with thier blood spewing all over. But since they don't have mouths, they can't scream. Ahh yes, the classic joke. Which is funny because by telling it, the joke is actually on you. Plants can't feel pain, you would know this if you took science/anatomy.
And thats my $2
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by WantsumBier Some in this thread have attempted to make a correlation between meat eaters and obesity. I find that a flawed argument IMO. Just because someone eats meat has very little to do with their propensity for obesity. You have to look at their overall diet. Many of the best selling and successful diet/nutrition programs (Body for Life / the Abs Diet) use animal protein as an important part of their programs. (No I did not mention Atkins because it is crap.)
Someone made a stupid post about how all vegetarians are skinny and die early. I find that a flawed argument. Then I just said how a lot of people are obese and how a lot of people eat meat. Call it a flawed argument if you want but so was his.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Someone made a stupid post about how all vegetarians are skinny and die early. I find that a flawed argument. Then I just said how a lot of people are obese and how a lot of people eat meat. Call it a flawed argument if you want but so was his. Agreed!
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
Originally posted by Tuutob Originally posted by tetsul Oh goodie, another veggie post. Peta's numbers of preachy lunatics must be down that they're on a recruitment drive. Make sure if you become a vegetarian to take the moral high ground at every opportunity and tell people how great being a vegetarian is. People just love that.
Originally posted by Tuutob The consumption of meat has sparked many enormous, sometimes even violent, protests brought upon major corporations such as McDonalds, Subway, etc.
So with that you think "maybe eating meat isn't for me" and not "those people are batshit insane for breaking into violence over what people eat"? Is that really what you want to relate to?
Ugh, I'm starting to miss the religious threads.
Did I ever say I was taking a clear side? Maybe not you, but these threads always end up this way. Hey look, there's that kitten again. So what's Peta's scientists have to say about human's diet today?
I said I was on the fence due to the way I was raised.
I never stated that anyone on either side was wrong nor right.
I love people that readt the first paragraph of a 5-6 paragraph post and think that they can make a good point by copying Maddox.
I was just pointing out that the start that got you thinking about it was odd, that occasionally violent protests got you thinking about what they were saying. That doesn't sound odd to you.
By the way I'll end the mystery. In hamburgers there's ground beef. Preservatives? Pesticides? Same crap is in the fruit and vegetables too.
Ahh yes, the classic joke. Which is funny because by telling it, the joke is actually on you. Plants can't feel pain, you would know this if you took science/anatomy.
And thats my $2
I'm interested in your thinking behind this. Are you saying that they do not feel pain because they do not have a central nervous system? Yet plants react to their environment; they turn towards the sun, and even respond to people talking to them (by growing).
Before you say they can't feel pain prove it to me. Tell me this. If it was proved that plants could feel pain would you still eat them?
This is not intended as a flame, I would just like some clarification.
By the way the study of plants is Botany not anatomy.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
Originally posted by tetsulDid I ever say I was taking a clear side? Maybe not you, but these threads always end up this way. Hey look, there's that kitten again. So what's Peta's scientists have to say about human's diet today?
I was just pointing out that the start that got you thinking about it was odd, that occasionally violent protests got you thinking about what they were saying. That doesn't sound odd to you.
So yes there are pesticides and preservatives in vegan food but that is why I eat organice and encourage everyone else to eat organic as well.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by WantsumBier Ahh yes, the classic joke. Which is funny because by telling it, the joke is actually on you. Plants can't feel pain, you would know this if you took science/anatomy.
And thats my $2
I'm interested in your thinking behind this. Are you saying that they do not feel pain because they do not have a central nervous system? Yet plants react to their environment; they turn towards the sun, and even respond to people talking to them (by growing). Thermostats obviously react to thermal changes in the environment and respond in a functionally appropriate manner to restore an initial "preferred" state. We would be foolish, however, to attribute to thermostats a capability to "sense" or "feel" some kind of thermal "pain". Plants have no evolutionary need for the feeling of pain, what could they possibly need it for? Animals on the otherhand absolutely need pain because it helps them survive. I think the plants would also need a brain to take the feeling and interperate it into pain.
Before you say they can't feel pain prove it to me. Tell me this. If it was proved that plants could feel pain would you still eat them?
This is not intended as a flame, I would just like some clarification.
By the way the study of plants is Botany not anatomy. Thanks for the clarification. I think anatomy would still be important so you can compare humans to plants.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Are we going through this song and dance again? Yep, that's what they say all right... according to a Peta front. The opinions of terrorist supporters don't concern me.
The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) is a nonprofit association that claims to promote "optimal diet for prevention of disease," says there is evidence that humans don't have a specific requirement for protein, and teaches that "too much dietary protein from animal sources is detrimental to health." [1] PCRM's reference to "animal sources" is key to understanding its true purpose. Its leader, Neal Barnard, MD, has been identified as medical adviser to the radical animal rights organization People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), and PCRM may be substantially funded by it. Animal activists are highly successful fundraisers. The combined budgets for 15 of the leading animal protection organizations exceeded $115 million in 1994 (PETA took in $12 million) [2]. In NCAHF's view, PCRM is a propaganda machine whose press conferences are charades for disguising its ideology as news events
Of course they just show that part because it promotes what they want. They don't go into the rest, such as this (from ADA):
Whereas vegetarian diets are generally rich in n-6 fatty acids (especifically linoleic acid), these diets can be low in n-3 fatty acids, resulting in an imbalance that can inhibit production of the physiologically active long chain n-3 fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Diets that do not include fish, eggs, or generous amounts of sea vegetables generally lack direct sources of EPA and DHA. Recently, vegan sources of DHA derived from microalgae have become available as supplements in nongelatin capsules.
Some studies suggest that vegans who do not consume iodized salt may be at risk for iodine deficiency;
Sources of vitamin B-12 that are not derived from animals include B-12 fortified foods (such as some brands of soymilk, breakfast cereals, and nutritional yeast) or supplements (see Table). Unless fortified, no plant food contains significant amounts of active vitamin B-12. Foods such as sea vegetables and spirulina may contain vitamin B-12 analogs; neither these nor fermented soy products can be counted on as reliable sources of active vitamin B-12 ...Vegetarian diets are typically high in folic acid, which can mask the hematological symptoms of vitamin B-12 deficiency. Therefore, some cases of deficiency may not be detected until after the onset of neurological symptoms ... A regular source of vitamin B-12 is crucial for pregnant and lactating women and for breastfed infants if the mother's diet is not supplemented. Infants born to vegan mothers whose diets lack reliable sources of this vitamin are at especially high risk of deficiency. Starting to fill this up so I'll stop. Yep, nothing better then a diet that you need to use supplements and artifically fortified foods to meet the requirements for a day. Just like they do in nature.
Originally posted by AlexAmore "Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer."
And bone disease.
How many elderly Vegetarians have you met? Do the maths.
.
If you don't like eating meat because it tastes bad or the thought of animals dying offends you, that's one thing, but to promote it as a more healthy way of living is another thing completely. It isn't. VEGETARIANS DO NOT LIVE LONGER. They get to a point where they become too ill and their doctor tells them to stop it or die. You don't get old vegetarians. They don't outlive meat eaters at all. They grow up and start eating properly.
Darwinism really does dictate that if vegetarianism was the secret to increased health and a longer life the world would be awash with geriatric vegetarians. But it isn't. There aren't any at all. Zero. Count up how many Vegetarian old folk you personally know. Am I wrong?
Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by Shiymmas Meanwhile, Maddox is clearly the reference to point to. Are you serious? I think anyone who needs/wants to get their arguments from Maddox is completely braindead. He is not an expert and he missed so many reasons as to why vegetarianism helps your health and the planet....like usual with Maddox. I wouldn't discourage being a vegetarian, but do so for the right reasons if you must. What are the right reasons in your opinion? Lots to be learned from Maddox. You have to realize you can't take maddox serious.
Remove the stick from your ass. Your reaction is precisely why I posted the links. Maddox's entire site is a satire which I find to be rather hilariously presented. He states his opinions in a very frank and sarcastic manner and it's just plain funny. I agree, however, that he is no expert, but anyone who thinks I was referencing his site as a source for expert analysis is clearly taking themselves too seriously.
I personally believe the right reasons to become a vegetarian should have nothing to do with anyone else's opinions on the matter, but what you find to be better suited to your lifestyle, health, and any other factor you may consider. The very reason I posted Maddox's articles are to show the types of people (which he clearly covers) that choose to be vegetarians for what I believe are the "wrong" reasons.
Realistically, there is plenty to be learned from some of the things Maddox presents on his website. His views are shared by many people, and while they may be presented in a satirical manner, they do hold a lot of truth.
At any rate, the post was intended as a joke. If people here are taking that stuff seriously, they really need to take a few deep breaths and chill out. I read Maddox's pages and rofl. I don't sit there with my jaw dropped in shock at what he has to say and neither should you.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Originally posted by tetsul Originally posted by AlexAmore
I already gave you American Dietetic Association and American Heart Association talking about how you will be at a less risk for health problems with a vegetarian/vegan diet. Here's more showing veganism improving health http://www.pcrm.org/news/release050909.html Are we going through this song and dance again? Yep, that's what they say all right... according to a Peta front. The opinions of terrorist supporters don't concern me. Terrorist? HA! Have you ever been inside of a factory farm? Did you read about the US government allowing destructive hormones to be used in meat while Europe banned it? http://www.ncahf.org/articles/o-r/pcrm.html The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) is a nonprofit association that claims to promote "optimal diet for prevention of disease," says there is evidence that humans don't have a specific requirement for protein, and teaches that "too much dietary protein from animal sources is detrimental to health." [1] PCRM's reference to "animal sources" is key to understanding its true purpose. Its leader, Neal Barnard, MD, has been identified as medical adviser to the radical animal rights organization People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), and PCRM may be substantially funded by it. Animal activists are highly successful fundraisers. The combined budgets for 15 of the leading animal protection organizations exceeded $115 million in 1994 (PETA took in $12 million) [2]. In NCAHF's view, PCRM is a propaganda machine whose press conferences are charades for disguising its ideology as news events
Of course they just show that part because it promotes what they want. They don't go into the rest, such as this (from ADA):
Whereas vegetarian diets are generally rich in n-6 fatty acids (especifically linoleic acid), these diets can be low in n-3 fatty acids, Flaxseed solves this problem resulting in an imbalance that can inhibit production of the physiologically active long chain n-3 fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Diets that do not include fish, eggs, or generous amounts of sea vegetables generally lack direct sources of EPA and DHA. Recently, vegan sources of DHA derived from microalgae have become available as supplements in nongelatin capsules.
Some studies suggest that vegans who do not consume iodized salt may be at risk for iodine deficiency; Seaweed solves this problem.
Sources of vitamin B-12 that are not derived from animals include B-12 fortified foods (such as some brands of soymilk, breakfast cereals, and nutritional yeast) or supplements (see Table). Unless fortified, no plant food contains significant amounts of active vitamin B-12. Foods such as sea vegetables and spirulina may contain vitamin B-12 analogs; neither these nor fermented soy products can be counted on as reliable sources of active vitamin B-12 ...Vegetarian diets are typically high in folic acid, which can mask the hematological symptoms of vitamin B-12 deficiency. Therefore, some cases of deficiency may not be detected until after the onset of neurological symptoms ... A regular source of vitamin B-12 is crucial for pregnant and lactating women and for breastfed infants if the mother's diet is not supplemented. Infants born to vegan mothers whose diets lack reliable sources of this vitamin are at especially high risk of deficiency. All of the Vitamin B12 in the world ultimately comes from bacteria. Neither plants nor animals can synthesize it. But plants can be contaminated with B12 when they come in contact with soil bacteria that produce it. Animal foods are rich in B12 only because animals eat foods that are contaminated with it or because bacteria living in an animal's intestines make it. And in humans, that bacteria doesn't necessarily come from plants -- the mouth, upper intestine, and lower intestine all contain bacteria that produce B12. However, it's unknown if enough B12 to meet the daily requirement comes from internal sources of B12. More likely, they produce some, and the rest comes in with food and water consumed. Starting to fill this up so I'll stop. Yep, nothing better then a diet that you need to use supplements and artifically fortified foods to meet the requirements for a day. Just like they do in nature. LOL how much are intuned with nature? You don't drive a car, take synthetic medicine, fire for warmth, no air conditioning, no computer (oh wait), grow your own food, no soda, no alcohol, no processed foods, kill your own meat and eat it raw, eat your meat with no fancy sauce and toppings, do you salivate over a dead animal (road kill)? We have evolved as humans now we can see that by not eating meat we are saving animals torture, and saving the earth.
Meat and dairy eaters also have to supplement plus afterwards you also have to deal with all the articially fortified meat that you just ate...yep it's artificially fortified food, buddy. Not like nature.
Average Americans (mostly meat eaters) are deficient in vitamin E, vitamin A, vitamin C or magnesium in their daily diet according to the USDA.
"If you don't like eating meat because it tastes bad or the thought of animals dying offends you, that's one thing, but to promote it as a more healthy way of living is another thing completely. Those weren't my words, they were of the American Dietetic Association. It isn't. VEGETARIANS DO NOT LIVE LONGER. They get to a point where they become too ill and their doctor tells them to stop it or die. You don't get old vegetarians. They don't outlive meat eaters at all. They grow up and start eating properly. Actually studies have been done about life expectancy and found that vegetarians/vegans live just as long as meat eaters.
Darwinism really does dictate that if vegetarianism was the secret to increased health and a longer life the world would be awash with geriatric vegetarians. But it isn't. There aren't any at all. Zero. Count up how many Vegetarian old folk you personally know. Am I wrong?"
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by Shiymmas Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by Shiymmas Meanwhile, Maddox is clearly the reference to point to. Are you serious? I think anyone who needs/wants to get their arguments from Maddox is completely braindead. He is not an expert and he missed so many reasons as to why vegetarianism helps your health and the planet....like usual with Maddox. I wouldn't discourage being a vegetarian, but do so for the right reasons if you must. What are the right reasons in your opinion? Lots to be learned from Maddox. You have to realize you can't take maddox serious.
Remove the stick from your ass. Your reaction is precisely why I posted the links. Maddox's entire site is a satire which I find to be rather hilariously presented. He states his opinions in a very frank and sarcastic manner and it's just plain funny. I agree, however, that he is no expert, but anyone who thinks I was referencing his site as a source for expert analysis is clearly taking themselves too seriously.
I personally believe the right reasons to become a vegetarian should have nothing to do with anyone else's opinions on the matter, but what you find to be better suited to your lifestyle, health, and any other factor you may consider. The very reason I posted Maddox's articles are to show the types of people (which he clearly covers) that choose to be vegetarians for what I believe are the "wrong" reasons.
Realistically, there is plenty to be learned from some of the things Maddox presents on his website. His views are shared by many people, and while they may be presented in a satirical manner, they do hold a lot of truth.
At any rate, the post was intended as a joke. If people here are taking that stuff seriously, they really need to take a few deep breaths and chill out. I read Maddox's pages and rofl. I don't sit there with my jaw dropped in shock at what he has to say and neither should you.
You have to realize there are a lot of idiots on this forum and you only have 4 posts and there isn't a sarcasm bar to measure your post with.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by AlexAmore You have to realize there are a lot of idiots on this forum and you only have 4 posts and there isn't a sarcasm bar to measure your post with.
Fair enough. However, I've been an MMORPG.com member for a while now, and while I've never participated on the forums here, lack of any decent MMOs at the moment has me wasting time here, so yeah, my post count is going up. Sucks, but whatever it's entertaining for now
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Originally posted by Shiymmas Originally posted by AlexAmore You have to realize there are a lot of idiots on this forum and you only have 4 posts and there isn't a sarcasm bar to measure your post with.
Fair enough. However, I've been an MMORPG.com member for a while now, and while I've never participated on the forums here, lack of any decent MMOs at the moment has me wasting time here, so yeah, my post count is going up. Sucks, but whatever it's entertaining for now
lol thats exactly why my post count is past 1000....because there hasn't been any good mmos for a long time now. The forums im in generally, I only have maybe 100-200 posts.....
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Remove the stick from your ass. Your reaction is precisely why I posted the links. Maddox's entire site is a satire which I find to be rather hilariously presented. He states his opinions in a very frank and sarcastic manner and it's just plain funny. I agree, however, that he is no expert, but anyone who thinks I was referencing his site as a source for expert analysis is clearly taking themselves too seriously.
It makes as much sense as a expert analysis as Peta does so it all balances out.
Terrorist? HA! Have you ever been inside of a factory farm? Did you read about the US government allowing destructive hormones to be used in meat while Europe banned it? Yeah, remember the time that factory farm gave legal aid to a convicted arsonist? Oh wait no, that was Peta. Of course I use terrorist as "person who attacks civilians to further a political agenda" not "person who does something I don't like". All of the Vitamin B12 in the world ultimately comes from bacteria. Neither plants nor animals can synthesize it. But plants can be contaminated with B12 when they come in contact with soil bacteria that produce it. Animal foods are rich in B12 only because animals eat foods that are contaminated with it or because bacteria living in an animal's intestines make it. And in humans, that bacteria doesn't necessarily come from plants -- the mouth, upper intestine, and lower intestine all contain bacteria that produce B12. However, it's unknown if enough B12 to meet the daily requirement comes from internal sources of B12. More likely, they produce some, and the rest comes in with food and water consumed. Stop quoting goveg and other nonsense. Hardin Memorial Hospital has a nice picture of where B12 comes from. And it even says "those with strict vegetarian diets can develop deficiencies without supplements" If people MAYBE produce their own, how do they get deficiencies? Who do you think I believe more, a hospital or goveg's Peta paid scientists? LOL how much are intuned with nature? You don't drive a car, take synthetic medicine, fire for warmth, no air conditioning, no computer (oh wait), grow your own food, no soda, no alcohol, no processed foods, kill your own meat and eat it raw, eat your meat with no fancy sauce and toppings, do you salivate over a dead animal (road kill)? We have evolved as humans now we can see that by not eating meat we are saving animals torture, and saving the earth.
Meat and dairy eaters also have to supplement plus afterwards you also have to deal with all the articially fortified meat that you just ate...yep it's artificially fortified food, buddy. Not like nature.
The difference being is I don't claim to be natural, or more intuned with the world, or any other stupid crap that spews out from the more vocal vegetarians. I don't say "you can have a perfectly healthy diet eating a certain way" then cover for deficiencies with suppliments.
"If you don't like eating meat because it tastes bad or the thought of animals dying offends you, that's one thing, but to promote it as a more healthy way of living is another thing completely. Those weren't my words, they were of the American Dietetic Association.
No, that was the interpretation of your... sources. The ADA had "well it's better in these ways and worse in these."
Originally posted by tetsul Originally posted by AlexAmore
Terrorist? HA! Have you ever been inside of a factory farm? Did you read about the US government allowing destructive hormones to be used in meat while Europe banned it? Yeah, remember the time that factory farm gave legal aid to a convicted arsonist? Oh wait no, that was Peta. Of course I use terrorist as "person who attacks civilians to further a political agenda" not "person who does something I don't like".
Wtf i'm not talking about PETA! I didn't say an f'ing word about them. All i'm saying is if those animals who are in those factories were the animal species we call "human" then we would call it terrorism even though we know scientifically that these animals have fear, sadness, pain...ect. All of the Vitamin B12 in the world ultimately comes from bacteria. Neither plants nor animals can synthesize it. But plants can be contaminated with B12 when they come in contact with soil bacteria that produce it. Animal foods are rich in B12 only because animals eat foods that are contaminated with it or because bacteria living in an animal's intestines make it. And in humans, that bacteria doesn't necessarily come from plants -- the mouth, upper intestine, and lower intestine all contain bacteria that produce B12. However, it's unknown if enough B12 to meet the daily requirement comes from internal sources of B12. More likely, they produce some, and the rest comes in with food and water consumed. Stop quoting goveg and other nonsense. Hardin Memorial Hospital has a nice picture of where B12 comes from. And it even says "those with strict vegetarian diets can develop deficiencies without supplements" Of course they can develop deficiencies without supplements you friggen Einstein. Just like every other human on the face of this earth if they neglect and are uneducated about their diet. If people MAYBE produce their own, how do they get deficiencies? Who do you think I believe more, a hospital or goveg's Peta paid scientists? I wasn't quoting goveg or PETA. It was actually MD, PhD..ect. It probably doesn't matter to you because obviously they have motives and agendas, right? I also didn't say we created enough on our own, I said we create our own but it's not known how much or if it's enough. LOL how much are intuned with nature? You don't drive a car, take synthetic medicine, fire for warmth, no air conditioning, no computer (oh wait), grow your own food, no soda, no alcohol, no processed foods, kill your own meat and eat it raw, eat your meat with no fancy sauce and toppings, do you salivate over a dead animal (road kill)? We have evolved as humans now we can see that by not eating meat we are saving animals torture, and saving the earth.
Meat and dairy eaters also have to supplement plus afterwards you also have to deal with all the articially fortified meat that you just ate...yep it's artificially fortified food, buddy. Not like nature.
The difference being is I don't claim to be natural, or more intuned with the world, or any other stupid crap that spews out from the more vocal vegetarians. I don't say "you can have a perfectly healthy diet eating a certain way" then cover for deficiencies with suppliments. You can have a perfectly healthy diet as a vegan but it requires a lot more money, and time. This is something not many people have these days and so they go with a shortcut and that is supplements. There is no vegan food that doesn't have the nutrients that a human needs. There is nothing wrong with supplements, meat eaters get them all the time (biggest market...is them).
There are multi-vitamin companies who use natural b-12 obtained from bacteria feeding on plant matter. A long time ago B-12 was obtained from natural plants, water and dirt and because the people just ate it they were getting B-12 (they didn't wash it thoroughly with filtered water, because they couldn't) You can have a perfectly healthy diet as a vegan but it requires a lot more money, and time. This is something not many people have these days and so they go with a shortcut and that is supplements. There is no vegan food that doesn't have the nutrients that a human needs. There is nothing wrong with supplements, meat eaters get them all the time (biggest market...is them).
There are multi-vitamin companies who use natural b-12 obtained from bacteria feeding on plant matter. A long time ago B-12 was obtained from natural plants, water and dirt and because the people just ate it they were getting B-12 (they didn't wash it thoroughly with filtered water, because they couldn't)
"If you don't like eating meat because it tastes bad or the thought of animals dying offends you, that's one thing, but to promote it as a more healthy way of living is another thing completely. Those weren't my words, they were of the American Dietetic Association.
No, that was the interpretation of your... sources. The ADA had "well it's better in these ways and worse in these."
I directly quoted ADA. Here is another quote: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases."
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
One thing i know for sure is that, if i would have to kill the animals myself, i would definitely be a vegetarian. I have an absolute disgust for killing things that are bigger and more inteligent then insect. (I don't make a fuss for a cocroach, yet i am very careful with spiders, ants and lady bugs. Go figure...)
Anyway, point being that i got raised in a heavy meat eater family, which is a bad habit i have a hard time to get rid of. I know there's some really solid vegy diet and that you don't need meat to live anymore. I just can't seem to kill my carnivorous instinct
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
There's really no nutrients vegetarians can't get anymore, mostly because of things like supplements, but there are nutrients (Iron, Protien and Zinc most commonly) that they have to make sure they are getting enough of. While plants and other vegetarian foods have those, they don't have the amount that meat does, so vegetarians have to make sure they're getting enough or they can get sick. I know many vegetarians, and they thend to be sick much more often than most of the meat eaters I know. It's not necessarily getting the nutrients thats the problem with vegetarians, it's getting enough of the nutrients.
That said, I will never be a vegetarian for one simple reason: I like meat too damn much. I live in the BBQ capital of the world (Memphis), and I can't go a day without eating some form of animal. It's not that I like the fact that animals are killed in mass for the food, but I don't really have a problem with it. Our species came up on meat for the most part, and I see no reason to stop now.
Schutzbar - Human Warrior - Windrunner Alliance - World of Warcraft Nihilanth - Kerra Paladin - Blackburrow - EverQuest II XBL Gamertag - Eagle15GT
I'd like to place my order now: Big Mac, Filet O' Fish, Quarter Pounder, french fries, icy Coke, thick shake, sundae, and an apple pie. Because I deserve a break today
How many elderly Vegetarians have you met? Do the maths.
Uh...about half my family, buddy. Just because you've never met them personally doesn't mean they don't exist. Like just because I've never met a lesbian in person does not mean that homosexuality in females is just a lie cooked up by the liberal media. I'm not saying that vegetarianism promotes a healthier lifestyle, but I have met elderly vegetarians before - my grandmother was nearly eighty before she died. Her husband, eighty-five.
It's funny, though, a similar point was expressed by a chick I met through my sister, who asked me, "Show me someone who eats meat who isn't morbidly obese?" God, choke.
But I digress. If you haven't figured out by now, yes I do live in a vegetarian household. I was raised vegetarian, and continue to indulge myself in the dark practice which is vegetarianism. It all started because I'm from an Indian family. (The brown kind - Mahatma Ghandi, not Sitting Bull) In varying degrees, my family practices Hinduism so, in case you didn't know, cows are like superheroes to us. Can't eat them. Holy creatures. But a lot of Indians aren't vegetarians - in fact, some of the most carniverous people I know are Indians. Most, in fact, see that they can't eat meat and just make up for it in chicken, lamb, pork, and fish.
Anyway, my parents figured, "Hey, we don't eat cows - fuck it, let's go the whole way." Not because they thought meat was murder, (This would change, though) and not because they wanted to be "healthier," it was more or less just because.
Which is why I'm a vegetarian - just because. It's like why some people like to wear black and some, green. It just suits them. Honestly, being a vegetarian suits me. Grew up with it for 19 years, and I'm still doing fine. And I've tried meat - don't think I'm just completely disregarding the other side. Tried it, and honestly, I wasn't terribly impressed, so I decided to stick with what I liked.
Sadly, though, my mum and sister have suddenly become adament supporters of PETA and their whole, "killing animals is bad!!" routine. Now I like animals better than most people, but I don't believe that slaughtering them for food is a sin against whatever higher power you choose to believe in. Honestly, I fucking hate that. Much like how fat cosplayers and obsessive nerds give anime fans a bad image, PETA does that for vegetarians. The minute you say you're vegetarian, like here, people automatically say that you're fighting for those who can't fight, the poor chickens and cows.
It's not true, though. At least, in my case it's not. If you are, though I don't support you, all the more power to you. You have something to commit yourself to, congratulations. But please, don't be so damn militant about the whole thing. I once told a friend that I was vegetarian while we were eating dinner, and he peers down at his steak and says, "Oh...sorry man..." He apologised! For what? "I don't know if you were, you know, offended that I'm eating this." Of course not, why would I be? It's like someone getting offended that I like tofu, or people getting offended if two dudes like each other as something more than friends.
Oh wait, that's called homophobia. So does that mean there's a...I don't know...carniphobia out there?
But I'm getting off track - just like not every gamer likes to blow shit up and plays games because they can't murder people in real life, not every vegetarian is fighting for the animals' cause.
Originally posted by Nihilanth Our species came up on meat for the most part, and I see no reason to stop now.
Tons of land, air, and water pollution, deforestation, climate change....are those worth it?
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Comments
Some in this thread have attempted to make a correlation between meat eaters and obesity. I find that a flawed argument IMO. Just because someone eats meat has very little to do with their propensity for obesity. You have to look at their overall diet. Many of the best selling and successful diet/nutrition programs (Body for Life / the Abs Diet) use animal protein as an important part of their programs. (No I did not mention Atkins because it is crap.)
If someone eats to excess (either carnivore or vegetarian) of the wrong types of things then they run the risk of becoming fat, obese, or unhealthy.
The key point that a couple others posting in this thread have mentioned is the concept of moderation.
Eggs are meat! You know liquid chicken!
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
And thats my $2
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Agreed!
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
So with that you think "maybe eating meat isn't for me" and not "those people are batshit insane for breaking into violence over what people eat"? Is that really what you want to relate to?
Ugh, I'm starting to miss the religious threads.
Did I ever say I was taking a clear side? Maybe not you, but these threads always end up this way. Hey look, there's that kitten again. So what's Peta's scientists have to say about human's diet today?
I said I was on the fence due to the way I was raised.
I never stated that anyone on either side was wrong nor right.
I love people that readt the first paragraph of a 5-6 paragraph post and think that they can make a good point by copying Maddox.
I was just pointing out that the start that got you thinking about it was odd, that occasionally violent protests got you thinking about what they were saying. That doesn't sound odd to you.
By the way I'll end the mystery. In hamburgers there's ground beef. Preservatives? Pesticides? Same crap is in the fruit and vegetables too.
And thats my $2
I'm interested in your thinking behind this. Are you saying that they do not feel pain because they do not have a central nervous system? Yet plants react to their environment; they turn towards the sun, and even respond to people talking to them (by growing).
Before you say they can't feel pain prove it to me. Tell me this. If it was proved that plants could feel pain would you still eat them?
This is not intended as a flame, I would just like some clarification.
By the way the study of plants is Botany not anatomy.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
I was just pointing out that the start that got you thinking about it was odd, that occasionally violent protests got you thinking about what they were saying. That doesn't sound odd to you.
By the way I'll end the mystery. In hamburgers there's ground beef. Preservatives? Pesticides? Same crap is in the fruit and vegetables too.
http://www.preventcancer.com/consumers/general/hormones_meat.htm - hormones
Meat is full of antibiotics. Animals in overcrowded conditions are more likely to become ill, so large quantities of antibiotics are placed in their food in an attempt to stave off infection. This practice contributes to the evolution of stronger bacteria.
http://vegan-info.com/old-vom-world-killing-itself.html
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-04/idso-lau041706.php
So yes there are pesticides and preservatives in vegan food but that is why I eat organice and encourage everyone else to eat organic as well.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
And thats my $2
I'm interested in your thinking behind this. Are you saying that they do not feel pain because they do not have a central nervous system? Yet plants react to their environment; they turn towards the sun, and even respond to people talking to them (by growing).
Thermostats obviously react to thermal changes in the environment
and respond in a functionally appropriate manner to restore an initial
"preferred" state. We would be foolish, however, to attribute to
thermostats a capability to "sense" or "feel" some kind of thermal "pain".
Plants have no evolutionary need for the feeling of pain, what could they possibly need it for? Animals on the otherhand absolutely need pain because it helps them survive. I think the plants would also need a brain to take the feeling and interperate it into pain.
Before you say they can't feel pain prove it to me. Tell me this. If it was proved that plants could feel pain would you still eat them?
This is not intended as a flame, I would just like some clarification.
By the way the study of plants is Botany not anatomy.
Thanks for the clarification. I think anatomy would still be important so you can compare humans to plants.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
And bone disease.
How many elderly Vegetarians have you met? Do the maths.
.
If you don't like eating meat because it tastes bad or the thought of animals dying offends you, that's one thing, but to promote it as a more healthy way of living is another thing completely. It isn't. VEGETARIANS DO NOT LIVE LONGER. They get to a point where they become too ill and their doctor tells them to stop it or die. You don't get old vegetarians. They don't outlive meat eaters at all. They grow up and start eating properly.
Darwinism really does dictate that if vegetarianism was the secret to increased health and a longer life the world would be awash with geriatric vegetarians. But it isn't. There aren't any at all. Zero. Count up how many Vegetarian old folk you personally know. Am I wrong?
i think vegetarians suxx
they hate teh plants((
Remove the stick from your ass. Your reaction is precisely why I posted the links. Maddox's entire site is a satire which I find to be rather hilariously presented. He states his opinions in a very frank and sarcastic manner and it's just plain funny. I agree, however, that he is no expert, but anyone who thinks I was referencing his site as a source for expert analysis is clearly taking themselves too seriously.
I personally believe the right reasons to become a vegetarian should have nothing to do with anyone else's opinions on the matter, but what you find to be better suited to your lifestyle, health, and any other factor you may consider. The very reason I posted Maddox's articles are to show the types of people (which he clearly covers) that choose to be vegetarians for what I believe are the "wrong" reasons.
Realistically, there is plenty to be learned from some of the things Maddox presents on his website. His views are shared by many people, and while they may be presented in a satirical manner, they do hold a lot of truth.
At any rate, the post was intended as a joke. If people here are taking that stuff seriously, they really need to take a few deep breaths and chill out. I read Maddox's pages and rofl. I don't sit there with my jaw dropped in shock at what he has to say and neither should you.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Of course they just show that part because it promotes what they want. They don't go into the rest, such as this (from ADA):
Whereas vegetarian diets are generally rich in n-6 fatty acids (especifically linoleic acid), these diets can be low in n-3 fatty acids,
Flaxseed solves this problem
resulting in an imbalance that can inhibit production of the physiologically active long chain n-3 fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Diets that do not include fish, eggs, or generous amounts of sea vegetables generally lack direct sources of EPA and DHA. Recently, vegan sources of DHA derived from microalgae have become available as supplements in nongelatin capsules.
Some studies suggest that vegans who do not consume iodized salt may be at risk for iodine deficiency;
Seaweed solves this problem.
Sources of vitamin B-12 that are not derived from animals include B-12 fortified foods (such as some brands of soymilk, breakfast cereals, and nutritional yeast) or supplements (see Table
). Unless fortified, no plant food contains significant amounts of active vitamin B-12. Foods such as sea vegetables and spirulina may contain vitamin B-12 analogs; neither these nor fermented soy products can be counted on as reliable sources of active vitamin B-12 ...Vegetarian diets are typically high in folic acid, which can mask the hematological symptoms of vitamin B-12 deficiency. Therefore, some cases of deficiency may not be detected until after the onset of neurological symptoms ... A regular source of vitamin B-12 is crucial for pregnant and lactating women and for breastfed infants if the mother's diet is not supplemented. Infants born to vegan mothers whose diets lack reliable sources of this vitamin are at especially high risk of deficiency.
All of the Vitamin B12 in the world ultimately comes from bacteria. Neither plants nor animals can synthesize it. But plants can be contaminated with B12 when they come in contact with soil bacteria that produce it. Animal foods are rich in B12 only because animals eat foods that are contaminated with it or because bacteria living in an animal's intestines make it. And in humans, that bacteria doesn't necessarily come from plants -- the mouth, upper intestine, and lower intestine all contain bacteria that produce B12. However, it's unknown if enough B12 to meet the daily requirement comes from internal sources of B12. More likely, they produce some, and the rest comes in with food and water consumed.
Starting to fill this up so I'll stop. Yep, nothing better then a diet that you need to use supplements and artifically fortified foods to meet the requirements for a day. Just like they do in nature.
LOL how much are intuned with nature? You don't drive a car, take synthetic medicine, fire for warmth, no air conditioning, no computer (oh wait), grow your own food, no soda, no alcohol, no processed foods, kill your own meat and eat it raw, eat your meat with no fancy sauce and toppings, do you salivate over a dead animal (road kill)?
We have evolved as humans now we can see that by not eating meat we are saving animals torture, and saving the earth.
Meat and dairy eaters also have to supplement plus afterwards you also have to deal with all the articially fortified meat that you just ate...yep it's artificially fortified food, buddy. Not like nature.
Average Americans (mostly meat eaters) are deficient in vitamin E, vitamin A, vitamin C or magnesium in their daily diet according to the USDA.
"If you don't like eating meat because it tastes bad or the thought of animals dying offends you, that's one thing, but to promote it as a more healthy way of living is another thing completely.
Those weren't my words, they were of the American Dietetic Association.
It isn't. VEGETARIANS DO NOT LIVE LONGER. They get to a point where they become too ill and their doctor tells them to stop it or die. You don't get old vegetarians. They don't outlive meat eaters at all. They grow up and start eating properly.
Actually studies have been done about life expectancy and found that vegetarians/vegans live just as long as meat eaters.
Darwinism really does dictate that if vegetarianism was the secret to increased health and a longer life the world would be awash with geriatric vegetarians. But it isn't. There aren't any at all. Zero. Count up how many Vegetarian old folk you personally know. Am I wrong?"
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Remove the stick from your ass. Your reaction is precisely why I posted the links. Maddox's entire site is a satire which I find to be rather hilariously presented. He states his opinions in a very frank and sarcastic manner and it's just plain funny. I agree, however, that he is no expert, but anyone who thinks I was referencing his site as a source for expert analysis is clearly taking themselves too seriously.
I personally believe the right reasons to become a vegetarian should have nothing to do with anyone else's opinions on the matter, but what you find to be better suited to your lifestyle, health, and any other factor you may consider. The very reason I posted Maddox's articles are to show the types of people (which he clearly covers) that choose to be vegetarians for what I believe are the "wrong" reasons.
Realistically, there is plenty to be learned from some of the things Maddox presents on his website. His views are shared by many people, and while they may be presented in a satirical manner, they do hold a lot of truth.
At any rate, the post was intended as a joke. If people here are taking that stuff seriously, they really need to take a few deep breaths and chill out. I read Maddox's pages and rofl. I don't sit there with my jaw dropped in shock at what he has to say and neither should you.
You have to realize there are a lot of idiots on this forum and you only have 4 posts and there isn't a sarcasm bar to measure your post with.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
lol thats exactly why my post count is past 1000....because there hasn't been any good mmos for a long time now. The forums im in generally, I only have maybe 100-200 posts.....
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
"If you don't like eating meat because it tastes bad or the thought of animals dying offends you, that's one thing, but to promote it as a more healthy way of living is another thing completely.
Those weren't my words, they were of the American Dietetic Association.
No, that was the interpretation of your... sources. The ADA had "well it's better in these ways and worse in these."
"If you don't like eating meat because it tastes bad or the thought of animals dying offends you, that's one thing, but to promote it as a more healthy way of living is another thing completely.
Those weren't my words, they were of the American Dietetic Association.
No, that was the interpretation of your... sources. The ADA had "well it's better in these ways and worse in these."
I directly quoted ADA. Here is another quote: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases."
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
One thing i know for sure is that, if i would have to kill the animals myself, i would definitely be a vegetarian. I have an absolute disgust for killing things that are bigger and more inteligent then insect. (I don't make a fuss for a cocroach, yet i am very careful with spiders, ants and lady bugs. Go figure...)
Anyway, point being that i got raised in a heavy meat eater family, which is a bad habit i have a hard time to get rid of. I know there's some really solid vegy diet and that you don't need meat to live anymore. I just can't seem to kill my carnivorous instinct
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
There's really no nutrients vegetarians can't get anymore, mostly because of things like supplements, but there are nutrients (Iron, Protien and Zinc most commonly) that they have to make sure they are getting enough of. While plants and other vegetarian foods have those, they don't have the amount that meat does, so vegetarians have to make sure they're getting enough or they can get sick. I know many vegetarians, and they thend to be sick much more often than most of the meat eaters I know. It's not necessarily getting the nutrients thats the problem with vegetarians, it's getting enough of the nutrients.
That said, I will never be a vegetarian for one simple reason: I like meat too damn much. I live in the BBQ capital of the world (Memphis), and I can't go a day without eating some form of animal. It's not that I like the fact that animals are killed in mass for the food, but I don't really have a problem with it. Our species came up on meat for the most part, and I see no reason to stop now.
Schutzbar - Human Warrior - Windrunner Alliance - World of Warcraft
Nihilanth - Kerra Paladin - Blackburrow - EverQuest II
XBL Gamertag - Eagle15GT
It's funny, though, a similar point was expressed by a chick I met through my sister, who asked me, "Show me someone who eats meat who isn't morbidly obese?" God, choke.
But I digress. If you haven't figured out by now, yes I do live in a vegetarian household. I was raised vegetarian, and continue to indulge myself in the dark practice which is vegetarianism. It all started because I'm from an Indian family. (The brown kind - Mahatma Ghandi, not Sitting Bull) In varying degrees, my family practices Hinduism so, in case you didn't know, cows are like superheroes to us. Can't eat them. Holy creatures. But a lot of Indians aren't vegetarians - in fact, some of the most carniverous people I know are Indians. Most, in fact, see that they can't eat meat and just make up for it in chicken, lamb, pork, and fish.
Anyway, my parents figured, "Hey, we don't eat cows - fuck it, let's go the whole way." Not because they thought meat was murder, (This would change, though) and not because they wanted to be "healthier," it was more or less just because.
Which is why I'm a vegetarian - just because. It's like why some people like to wear black and some, green. It just suits them. Honestly, being a vegetarian suits me. Grew up with it for 19 years, and I'm still doing fine. And I've tried meat - don't think I'm just completely disregarding the other side. Tried it, and honestly, I wasn't terribly impressed, so I decided to stick with what I liked.
Sadly, though, my mum and sister have suddenly become adament supporters of PETA and their whole, "killing animals is bad!!" routine. Now I like animals better than most people, but I don't believe that slaughtering them for food is a sin against whatever higher power you choose to believe in. Honestly, I fucking hate that. Much like how fat cosplayers and obsessive nerds give anime fans a bad image, PETA does that for vegetarians. The minute you say you're vegetarian, like here, people automatically say that you're fighting for those who can't fight, the poor chickens and cows.
It's not true, though. At least, in my case it's not. If you are, though I don't support you, all the more power to you. You have something to commit yourself to, congratulations. But please, don't be so damn militant about the whole thing. I once told a friend that I was vegetarian while we were eating dinner, and he peers down at his steak and says, "Oh...sorry man..." He apologised! For what? "I don't know if you were, you know, offended that I'm eating this." Of course not, why would I be? It's like someone getting offended that I like tofu, or people getting offended if two dudes like each other as something more than friends.
Oh wait, that's called homophobia. So does that mean there's a...I don't know...carniphobia out there?
But I'm getting off track - just like not every gamer likes to blow shit up and plays games because they can't murder people in real life, not every vegetarian is fighting for the animals' cause.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Wait, you like tofu? You heathen! I condemn thee to flavorless jell-o