Originally posted by ste2000 That's anyone guess really, that's what it puzzle me every time that people like Anofalye post their thoughts. In short they don't want to start with an handicap on other people, therefore they try to convince Sigil and the comunity that they need to dumb down Vanguard in order to make it more accessible to Casual,
Can you quote Anofalaye asking at for a game to be 'dumbed down' or made more accessible to 'Casual' players, especially in this thread or board? I've seen her post a lot, and I've never seen her talk about reducing the skill requirement for a game or making things take less time - she always talks about raiding vs grouping, not about 'dumbing down' or 'Casual' play. Or are you using those terms in some unusual ways?
Originally posted by baphamet if you think that a game absolutely must not have any raiding or its a terrible design thats fine, that is YOUR OPINION and nothing more.
Why do you persist in outright lying about what other people say? Anofalye has very clearly and repetedly stated that the problem is raiding ENFORCEMENT, not the mere presence of raiding in the game.
again vanguard is mainly focused on grouping, if you don't like the fact that it has other ways to advance your character other than grouping or if you don't like the fact that you can get SOME of the best gear in the game by something other than grouping then that is your problem.
Again, more outright lying, because I know she's explained her views to you before. It's not that there are other ways to advance your character, it's that you have to raid if you want your character to be the best at grouping. Not that you CAN raid to get better equipped for grouping, but that raiding is required to get the best tools for grouping.
I find it interesting that you guys argue on one hand that people shouldn't make posts like Anofalye's because they won't make a difference, and on the other hand argue vehemetly that such posts should not be made. If they won't make a difference, why worry about them? I think the real issue is that they will make a difference to people who might be suckered into Vanguard without knowing what the game is really going to be about.
The reason I think Vanguard is failing, is because it is taking too long. They had a window to release, and they are going to miss it. Mainly my beef is, when you read down to it, you are going to pick a class, a race, level them up and end game raid, with more polygons That's the core of the game. Nothing stands out. It won't be the easiest, it won't be the hardest, it wil just be a well made, boring MMORPG.
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by baphamet if you think that a game absolutely must not have any raiding or its a terrible design thats fine, that is YOUR OPINION and nothing more.Why do you persist in outright lying about what other people say? Anofalye has very clearly and repetedly stated that the problem is raiding ENFORCEMENT, not the mere presence of raiding in the game. again vanguard is mainly focused on grouping, if you don't like the fact that it has other ways to advance your character other than grouping or if you don't like the fact that you can get SOME of the best gear in the game by something other than grouping then that is your problem.Again, more outright lying, because I know she's explained her views to you before. It's not that there are other ways to advance your character, it's that you have to raid if you want your character to be the best at grouping. Not that you CAN raid to get better equipped for grouping, but that raiding is required to get the best tools for grouping. I find it interesting that you guys argue on one hand that people shouldn't make posts like Anofalye's because they won't make a difference, and on the other hand argue vehemetly that such posts should not be made. If they won't make a difference, why worry about them? I think the real issue is that they will make a difference to people who might be suckered into Vanguard without knowing what the game is really going to be about.
patastic....STHU i am not lying....he has indeed said many times he wants a game/server with absolutely no raiding at all and since you decide to call me a liar i had to bust out on some quotes, hope you like crow for dinner.... all quotes from Anofalye.
Then why not have 1 such server, no raiding, raid loot put on a merchant that request more and more of something, even gold if you want, but rather be something NO DROP for obvious reasons, yet I would even accept gold despite the fact IGE would be extremely happy about it, which is why I would prefer some stuff, like LDoN.
If it would feature non-raiding server, it would be worth a try. No matter how badly I did argue against the evil meditating book in old EQ, there was something FUN in these features. Really, raiding is the main problem.
I wouldn't make the decisions they did on many points, especially about instancing, but again, maybe it could be nice...if it was not in an evil package deal with raiding.
A meal, if I put shit in it, it is shit-and-a-meal. Vanguard, by having raiding on all it servers is losing much.
Remove raiding and I would love it.
I can't accept playing on a raiding server anymore than I would accept playing on a PvP server, these are harmful gameplays to what I love, which is PvE grouping. Yet, for some reason you understand that PvP ruins PvE, but you seem to be freaking incapable of understanding that raiding is just as freaking bad on grouping as PvP is. Raiding KILL grouping.
A player may just HOPE a LOT. I honestly think Vanguard would make such a great game, as long as there is non-raiding servers.
as you can see i am not lying and even though i know that ENFORCED raiding is the main problem he has, he also would like a game with absolutely no raiding at all.
the point wasn't really what he says its how he as well as you make post after post after post complaining about it like you are going to convince us to buy into your views or that somehow a game designer will read your posts and design a game for you.
i mean GD...its one thing to make 1...2......10....even 20 posts about the same topic but I'm reading hundreds of posts by the same guy all complaining about raiding.
and as far as the second quote where supposedly i am lying....i wasn't quoting anyones direct views i said it in the form of a question, i never even quoted him at all for saying any of those things you said i lied about.
notice the IF in those quotes? i put that word there for a reason. anyways i do not want to discuss about raiding any longer, if you hate it thats fine...just get your facts straight before you call someone a liar.
2. Brad has said his 'vision' is that to get all the hot crap gear, you will need to do a little of everything (raid, group, solo). Weather or not this is how it actually works out remains to be seen.
Originally posted by grinreaper my 2 points: 1. raiding sucks maggoty goat turds 2. Brad has said his 'vision' is that to get all the hot crap gear, you will need to do a little of everything (raid, group, solo). Weather or not this is how it actually works out remains to be seen.
my 2c,
!: Fact -there is nothing concrete about raiding yet, bar Brad saying "some" high end loot will come from it.
I enjoy raiding in most mmo's just cus of community. i've been lucky & been involved in a small (40 odd), guild since Eq in '99. So i beg to differ )
2: It's a loot-centric game & subscription based , the longer & more skilled you play , the better the gear. The aim of Sigil /SOe is for us to play as long as possible. So be it )
think you still miss one point, even if there is 20% uber equipment from raiding, you can still have the second best equipment from the other spheres, so you can get near perfect equipment (90-95%) of equipment doing no raiding, so i dont see why raiding would be obligatory
someone who does 100% of content would have perfect equipment
someone who does 80% leaving what he doesnt want to do still is able to reach near perfect equipment
and if you have a lot of urge for getting that solo raiding sword, you could buy it(you should have plenty of resources from crafting-grouping)
my english is not perfect, but think you will understand what im trying to say
Edit: think first paragraph was a bit confusing i didnt want to say you can get 15% of best equipment, it was more like this
second best equip -> 15%(a bit worse than best equip, but good equip still)
Best equip -> 20%
and someone who only raids and sometimes groups would have round 50% of best equip
Im sorry but i do not believe you can have an item centric game that doesnt force you to raid for the best items. I dont care what brads vision is. 20% raid content may work for release but as people max level it will go out the window. Hell look at wow, one of the most casual games 1-59 becomes one of the most retarded at 60 with raiding requirements.
Originally posted by finnmacool1 Im sorry but i do not believe you can have an item centric game that doesnt force you to raid for the best items. I dont care what brads vision is. 20% raid content may work for release but as people max level it will go out the window. Hell look at wow, one of the most casual games 1-59 becomes one of the most retarded at 60 with raiding requirements.
Oh, that is their promise. I agree with you that people simply won't raid if it is the case - because raiding sucks and you have to require people to do it to get enough of them interested in order for it to ever happen. However, that is there plan.
However, that is COMPLETELY not the point of this thread, and all of the recent posts have gone far off topic with the stuff about raiding, etc.
The point is that they are doing a lot of things to appeal to mainstream gamers, but they are still keeping the best rewards tied in with hardcore gaming. If you wnat the drops that allow you to craft the best gear then you will have to fight the hardcore mobs that have huge death penalties and timesinks related to them. Same thing if you are grouping for gear, playing solo, or raiding. In each of these playstyles, they have stated that they will associate the best loot only with challenges that include xp loss, corpse runs, and item loss as conditions of defeat. Mainstream gamers won't put up with punitive game design. Failing at content and having to try again is the worst punishment you'll ever see in any games except really early MMOs. . . and now in Vanguard.
As the genre grows, the idea of punitive game mechanics will seem more and more absurd - and more and more suicidal to success.
Comments
Can you quote Anofalaye asking at for a game to be 'dumbed down' or made more accessible to 'Casual' players, especially in this thread or board? I've seen her post a lot, and I've never seen her talk about reducing the skill requirement for a game or making things take less time - she always talks about raiding vs grouping, not about 'dumbing down' or 'Casual' play. Or are you using those terms in some unusual ways?
Why do you persist in outright lying about what other people say? Anofalye has very clearly and repetedly stated that the problem is raiding ENFORCEMENT, not the mere presence of raiding in the game.
Again, more outright lying, because I know she's explained her views to you before. It's not that there are other ways to advance your character, it's that you have to raid if you want your character to be the best at grouping. Not that you CAN raid to get better equipped for grouping, but that raiding is required to get the best tools for grouping.
I find it interesting that you guys argue on one hand that people shouldn't make posts like Anofalye's because they won't make a difference, and on the other hand argue vehemetly that such posts should not be made. If they won't make a difference, why worry about them? I think the real issue is that they will make a difference to people who might be suckered into Vanguard without knowing what the game is really going to be about.
patastic....STHU i am not lying....he has indeed said many times he wants a game/server with absolutely no raiding at all and since you decide to call me a liar i had to bust out on some quotes, hope you like crow for dinner.... all quotes from Anofalye.
as you can see i am not lying and even though i know that ENFORCED raiding is the main problem he has, he also would like a game with absolutely no raiding at all.
the point wasn't really what he says its how he as well as you make post after post after post complaining about it like you are going to convince us to buy into your views or that somehow a game designer will read your posts and design a game for you.
i mean GD...its one thing to make 1...2......10....even 20 posts about the same topic but I'm reading hundreds of posts by the same guy all complaining about raiding.
and as far as the second quote where supposedly i am lying....i wasn't quoting anyones direct views i said it in the form of a question, i never even quoted him at all for saying any of those things you said i lied about.
notice the IF in those quotes? i put that word there for a reason. anyways i do not want to discuss about raiding any longer, if you hate it thats fine...just get your facts straight before you call someone a liar.
my 2 points:
1. raiding sucks maggoty goat turds
2. Brad has said his 'vision' is that to get all the hot crap gear, you will need to do a little of everything (raid, group, solo). Weather or not this is how it actually works out remains to be seen.
brad has said that he supports the idea that since raids take more effort to do they should be rewarded with more uber loot.
out the other side of his mouth he says that the game isn't just for raiders.
of course not, brad. because that would mean that 80% of your player base wouldn't buy the game. i'd say the same thing to.
my 2c,
!: Fact -there is nothing concrete about raiding yet, bar Brad saying "some" high end loot will come from it.
I enjoy raiding in most mmo's just cus of community. i've been lucky & been involved in a small (40 odd), guild since Eq in '99. So i beg to differ )
2: It's a loot-centric game & subscription based , the longer & more skilled you play , the better the gear. The aim of Sigil /SOe is for us to play as long as possible. So be it )
think you still miss one point, even if there is 20% uber equipment from raiding, you can still have the second best equipment from the other spheres, so you can get near perfect equipment (90-95%) of equipment doing no raiding, so i dont see why raiding would be obligatory
someone who does 100% of content would have perfect equipment
someone who does 80% leaving what he doesnt want to do still is able to reach near perfect equipment
and if you have a lot of urge for getting that solo raiding sword, you could buy it(you should have plenty of resources from crafting-grouping)
my english is not perfect, but think you will understand what im trying to say
Edit: think first paragraph was a bit confusing i didnt want to say you can get 15% of best equipment, it was more like this
second best equip -> 15%(a bit worse than best equip, but good equip still)
Best equip -> 20%
and someone who only raids and sometimes groups would have round 50% of best equip
However, that is COMPLETELY not the point of this thread, and all of the recent posts have gone far off topic with the stuff about raiding, etc.
The point is that they are doing a lot of things to appeal to mainstream gamers, but they are still keeping the best rewards tied in with hardcore gaming. If you wnat the drops that allow you to craft the best gear then you will have to fight the hardcore mobs that have huge death penalties and timesinks related to them. Same thing if you are grouping for gear, playing solo, or raiding. In each of these playstyles, they have stated that they will associate the best loot only with challenges that include xp loss, corpse runs, and item loss as conditions of defeat. Mainstream gamers won't put up with punitive game design. Failing at content and having to try again is the worst punishment you'll ever see in any games except really early MMOs. . . and now in Vanguard.
As the genre grows, the idea of punitive game mechanics will seem more and more absurd - and more and more suicidal to success.