Ok. I read the original artcle again for the thrid time... forgive my last tirade; I didn't stay on point...
Joe: How do you folks out there feel about griefing and open PVP?
I have NEVER camped/griefed anyone in my entire mmo gaming life... but if I saw you in a game, I would camp and grief you till my dick fell off. why?
Joe: Before anybody really gets into why I'm on a PvP server and not a PvE server, its simple why would I want to limit my options.
Because of 'reasoning' like that, (if you could call that reasoning). ... so you want to be FREE (not limited) to do what? have a few battles with humans in a virtual world? Why? (maybe because like everyone else you get a little bored clicking mines or killing respawnable mobs)? You never really said what you wanted to be free (not limited) to do...
So I have to guess from the other stuff you said about 'versus' that you want to be free to fight other humans as long as the fight is fair and equal? Of course every single swing is a random thing... a random chance to hit someone, a random chance they will not parry, block, or dodge, and if you hit them, then a random amount of damage. So suppose we could define 'fair' as being this: if two people fought each other 100 times, it would work out where each person won between 40-60 percent of the time? And I guess a 90-10 split would 'unfair'? And even given that, I suppose if multiple people are involved, that each side would need to have the same number of people? Then there is the whole level difference..... and mixed together is also a factor, because I remember winning with multiple lower-levels going against fewer higher levels and killing them all. And once such a 'fair' fight was defined, contrived, and actually occured... I suppose you want it to be repeatable, and yet everyone have the option to terminate the activity when they desired?
So to me it sounds like you want to be free to have ONLY fair fights (fair being a random win probability between 40-60 percent let's say), that groups will be even, and that it will not interfere with your sometimes short schedule of playtime.
And yet, such structured, even, and fair instances exist on PVE SERVERS!! They are called battlegrounds. Each side has the same number of people, level ranges are enforced, there is even a reason to do them, as you could grind out honor/faction. And if you don't have much time on any given night, you can go quest/grind money and NOT be bothered by other players. Given all that, you reject the implemention of everything you desire, to play on a pvp server, so you can be free to experience what? The things you don't like?
Sorry, but that's the kind of thinking that drives me batty... makes no sense whatsoever.
Debates between soft-pvpers and almost-PvE'ers aren't really debates I'm afraid.
Also, I don't think a pve'er rolling on a pvp server 'to keep their options open' is a valid reason. Clearly they should be on PvE. One of my biggest frustrations is PvE'ers who roll PvP then try to make the system more carebare to suit their own needs. Get a transfer or re-roll pve mate.
On PvP servers, a contested zone means what it says on the tin. One faction or the other will hold sway over certain areas and that's part of the fun. If it's too hot in one particular zone then move on. For instance, Stranglethorn Vale is always good for PvP but there are less contested areas where players can go to level up and bypass that zone completely.
Ganking is a pain, true, but I'm on my third level 60 now & I've never found it too much of a problem. Especially when there is no death penalty in pvp.
_________________________________________ You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
Originally posted by dadown What is contested in the 'contested zones'? You can't take over or control anything and there are no lasting consequences to any action. Sure you can raid a town and wipe out all the NPCs, but 30 minutes later they are all back again as though nothing has happened, so there is little motivation to defend your town unless you are strong enough to have a chance to survive.
It's the zones themselves that are contested I think. Your faction dominates it so the other faction avoids it in high numbers giving you reletively peaceful questing and farming. Some zones are war zones where you always need to watch your back. That would be the defintion of contested I think. It more or less sums up what you are walking into when you cross the border.
I do agree that it should be more purposeful but I think we'll have to wait for Warhammer Online for that.
_________________________________________ You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
Joe Iuliani put it the best way I have heard it so far.
Why is WoW the center of every mmorpg topic? It doesn't qualify to be the center of attention it's a cartoony game for kids.
Ok to the point, PvP does NOT belong in any mmorpg period. Not only is it nuts when it's a level based game but the shear amount of people who use scripts and other forms of hacks and exploits only cause the real grief here. Ganking and all that no skill stuff are just that, no skill.
Why the children think they need PvP in these game types is beyond me. If you want to really have skill go play FPS online games where your skill on the keyboard and mouse determines your success. Yes some people use hacks in those games but not as much to the shear number of players who do in mmorpgs.
There's no skill or honor in killing other players in mmorpg's, FACT. What about the players who actually have lives outside of games i.e. full time jobs and real life responsibilties versus the losers who have 24/7 to max out their character then start griefing low level players. Where we only have so much time to play a game we are PAYING for to be griefed by immature morons.
Why 90 something percent of companies incorporate PvP into their online games is a very bad move which can cost them literally thousands of subscribers.
I have played almost every mmorpg and I have only seen 2 or a little more if that that got PvP right when their title first launched. So far most mmorpg's out there have totally screwed up PvP mechanics completely.
Originally posted by DeathWolf2u Joe Iuliani put it the best way I have heard it so far. Why is WoW the center of every mmorpg topic? It doesn't qualify to be the center of attention it's a cartoony game for kids. Ok to the point, PvP does NOT belong in any mmorpg period. Not only is it nuts when it's a level based game but the shear amount of people who use scripts and other forms of hacks and exploits only cause the real grief here. Ganking and all that no skill stuff are just that, no skill. Why the children think they need PvP in these game types is beyond me. If you want to really have skill go play FPS online games where your skill on the keyboard and mouse determines your success. Yes some people use hacks in those games but not as much to the shear number of players who do in mmorpgs. There's no skill or honor in killing other players in mmorpg's, FACT. What about the players who actually have lives outside of games i.e. full time jobs and real life responsibilties versus the losers who have 24/7 to max out their character then start griefing low level players. Where we only have so much time to play a game we are PAYING for to be griefed by immature morons. Why 90 something percent of companies incorporate PvP into their online games is a very bad move which can cost them literally thousands of subscribers. I have played almost every mmorpg and I have only seen 2 or a little more if that that got PvP right when their title first launched. So far most mmorpg's out there have totally screwed up PvP mechanics completely.
unbelieveable....
1. SKILL is irrelevant. It's not about 'winning or loosing', it's about having some degree of UNPREDICTABILITY, some degree of dynamism to an otherwise boring repetitive game. You are obviously replying to some taunt made by a kid who pwnd you are whatever... just say it with me... "kids will be kids...I really don't care... this is only a game".
2. I need PVP and I'm not "children"... got 3 children myself... that play MMOs. "attack the man" technique is of course irrelevent. I have a life, job, wife, kids, business, and I want pvp in an mmo. When I want to feel 'skilled' I play fps... sure. I want pvp in an mmo because I'm not rainman.
3. IF a game provides PVE servers (as does WoW, eq2, etc), then complaints about GRIEFING are irrelevent. You can play on PVE servers and have EVERYTHING you desire... why do you care whether pvp servers exist at all? Then to even hint that you would quit a game ("loosing literally thousands of subscribers") because pvp exists, when you could of course play on a pve server, is absolutely insane.
4. most MMOs have screwed up pvp mechanics completely. Well, I might agree with that statement... you have a point there perhaps. There is of course a sure fire way to answer that. Create multiple servers, each with some slightly altered pvp mechanic. Then let the people/customers decide. For that matter, they are deciding between pve and pvp servers right now, by the fact that both exist, and the customers go to one or the other. I don't know the exact breakdown, but I suspect there are more pve players in wow. But I don't think it's 90-10 or anything... a little closer to 50-50 maybe. So if either of those categories are "too broad", then companies should have various alterations of the game mechanics and see how server populations evolve.
But then again, all this is assuming that the SOLUTION to the existing broken mechanics you claim to exist are actually defineable, reasonable, and can be implemented. You didn't say what was broken, and then you didn't say how it could be fixed... so who knows.
Let's face it, PVP (outside of battlegrounds) in WOW is just lame and pointless. There is no purpose to it, other than to waste another player's time. What percentage of the time do players engage in fair PVP fights? 5%? Less? And what benefit is there to PVP? None. There is no loss for dying, so you don't get the victim's stuff. Granted, there is some small thrill you get when escaping a higher level attacker and some small satisfaction derived from ganking some poor fool trying to kill pigs or whatever, but that's really about it. PVP exists solely to waste people's time. I honestly don't understand why they even have PVP servers. Just let players PVP in the battlegrounds. I understand that some other MMO's have meaningful PVP and that's great, but WOW is not one of them.
Originally posted by Garfunkel Debates between soft-pvpers and almost-PvE'ers aren't really debates I'm afraid. Also, I don't think a pve'er rolling on a pvp server 'to keep their options open' is a valid reason. Clearly they should be on PvE. One of my biggest frustrations is PvE'ers who roll PvP then try to make the system more carebare to suit their own needs. Get a transfer or re-roll pve mate. On PvP servers, a contested zone means what it says on the tin. One faction or the other will hold sway over certain areas and that's part of the fun. If it's too hot in one particular zone then move on. For instance, Stranglethorn Vale is always good for PvP but there are less contested areas where players can go to level up and bypass that zone completely. Ganking is a pain, true, but I'm on my third level 60 now & I've never found it too much of a problem. Especially when there is no death penalty in pvp.
Unless there's something I need to do there i'll kill anyone in the area that cons to me, because picking fights with everybody in a no foul system just makes things more difficult for me. He'll be back a minute later and pissed off, now I need to leave with nothing accomplished to avoid the bind rush and the inevitable call for help. I don't join groups unless there's another group following me around and pissing everyone off. Mostly because it makes things boring and unchallenging, and there's still no point. Why do I need 5 other people to help kill anyone? And I don't kil greys because there's no point. I get nothing out of it but wasted time and they just come right back. Am I a soft PvPer? I think that's just common sense and decency. I think everyone should have it, but since it's not possible I think it's up to the developers to even things out. They should at least protect the newbie population and the up and comers. I think it makes for a much healthier base when people aren't being griefed into quitting before they ever get started.
Background: 42 year old professional, WoW is my 28th MMO (19 of which were alpha/betas), multiple 60's on PvE and PvP realms, yadda yadda yadda.
I am not a PvP player. I never have been, never will be, it is not my style. That said, I do understand it, have done it, and know the score. I play on a PvP server because IRL friends play there. I have never been griefed, though I have been ganked, and that's just part of the experience.
Killing someone on a PvP server is not griefing, no matter how you slice it. The Horde and Alliance are at war, they are out to kill each other, it's canon. If you are in a contested zone and allow your health to get low, you deserve to die. If you are not paying attention and you get ganked by a rogue, you deserve to die. If you tape $100 bills all over your body and go walking through some high-crime neighborhood at 2am, you deserve to die.
If you don't want non-consensual PvP, then play on a PvE server and have the "best" elements of PvP in the battlegrounds. On a PvE server, if you don't want to PvP, you don't. If you do, you /pvp and you are. You are 100% in control of your experience on a carebear server. I know, I did it.
If you make a toon on a PvP server, you are told when you auto-flag, and if you aren't paying attention, then you get to die. You assume you will be ganked at every moment, and act accordingly...that is the PvP experience, not just in WoW, but any MMO that allows non-consensual PvP. It's not griefing, it's called tactics. If the OP feels that the only real PvP is when Ally player A walks up to Horde player B, ensures they are of the proper level, gets their attention, slaps them in the face with a gauntlet, then awaits their reply, they are SERIOUSLY detached from reality.
You go AFK on a PvP server in a contested zone, you are going to die, guaranteed. You get in over your head and overpull some mobs, you are going to get ganked. These are facts of life on a PvP server, and not even remotely griefing.
The OP needs to transfer to a PvE server and stop being so sensitive. People who bash PvP in general simply don't understand it and are showing their intolerance of things they don't understand. Folks enjoy it, obviously, so condemning it won't make it go away or less popular, nor will Blizzard suddenly close all the PvP servers because a handful of forum campers disapprove
I've said it before, PvP in mmorpgs is a pointless affair as long as levels exist.
You are simply pitting your "more time spent stats" against "less time spent stats" so griefing people is just a pathetic expression of your own desire for power.
It's cheap, boring, and stops the such games from have mass appeal.
Woot, finally I find someone else who thinks the way I do. So, how about this for a debate:
Would an MMORPG game work if it didn't have levels?
No matter how high you set the level cap, people will reach that level, so what will they do when they reach that cap? If you cant keep them interested at this point, then people will max out and get bored. If you can keep them interested at this point, they why force people to go through all the leveling in order to get to and see this content that had created for max-levels? If you dont have levels at all, then you only have to balance classes for one level (instead of making them balanced 50 times over - once for each level), and new players can play with vetrans, friends can play with friends. Forming guilds would be easier, raids would be easier, and everyone who plays the game can feel like they can contribute. Also, levels cause economy problems (if you make higher level creatures drop more/better loot then you have twinking, etc)
Ok to the point, PvP does NOT belong in any mmorpg period. Not only is it nuts when it's a level based game but the shear amount of people who use scripts and other forms of hacks and exploits only cause the real grief here. Ganking and all that no skill stuff are just that, no skill.
Why the children think they need PvP in these game types is beyond me. If you want to really have skill go play FPS online games where your skill on the keyboard and mouse determines your success. Yes some people use hacks in those games but not as much to the shear number of players who do in mmorpgs.
There's no skill or honor in killing other players in mmorpg's, FACT. What about the players who actually have lives outside of games i.e. full time jobs and real life responsibilties versus the losers who have 24/7 to max out their character then start griefing low level players. Where we only have so much time to play a game we are PAYING for to be griefed by immature morons.
Why 90 something percent of companies incorporate PvP into their online games is a very bad move which can cost them literally thousands of subscribers.
I have played almost every mmorpg and I have only seen 2 or a little more if that that got PvP right when their title first launched. So far most mmorpg's out there have totally screwed up PvP mechanics completely.
I have to go completely opposite of you on this one. PvP is Nessicary in MMOs. With out it you might as well just make the game have Diablo's Multiplayer style. Alot of the issues that WoW has are directly related to the fact that it has bad PvP and is PvE based. I made this arguement in another thread so I'll try to refine it a bit better in this one.
NPC driven Content NPC driven content is a holdover from the Pen and Paper roleplaying days when you only have 5 people and you have to use NPCs to fill the many characters. NPCs were also used to direct players and allow a Single person to attempt to create a populated and immersive enviroment by directing players through a small area of the world that is easy to plan out ahead of time. Now in MMORPGs and WoW specifically, what happens is that you eventually reach a point where the developers cannot create content faster than players can Beat/finish the old stuff. end result the "raiding issue" with make .05% drops to make players want to run the same quest repeatively to give the devs more time to make more content. Now NPCs do have a place in the game but more as stand-ins when you need to guarntee other characters on side quests.
Static World Nothing ever changes in WoW, The reason is in order to have the really well scripted instanced events its best to have people in as predefined area as possible. if it was there yesterday more and likely it will be there tommorrow and the next day and the next day. When was the last time you logged into the WoW forums to see if anything major had happened to the game world when you left? doubt you ever did. the lack of PvP built in the game through Conquerable lands/resources means that there is no true reason to fight for control of teritory. Further driving...
Poor Crafting
Well its another side effect from the NPC driven content/raiding. You need to have uber items to make people want to repeat that same quest for that .05% drop rate. So that means that in the end crafted items have to be worse then raid items. That all ends up to be the problem in WoW, only a select few trade skills are actually useful in the long run. And to add to this problem is the fact that equipment is never destroyed/lossed so there is no reason NOT to use the uber raid drops further lowering demand on player crafted items. With Item destruction/looting having that almighty Sword of destruction +7 isn't as great if it gets destroyed/ taken your first time out. Instead having a slew of ready made easily built swords is much more important.
Horrible PVP Now all the above leads us to this. Having both Level and equipment being a major factor in who wins, on top of absolutely no REAL effect on the game world makes WoW PvP bad. So to get people to PvP they use a honor system that just turns it into another work for that .05% drop item game to get you to do it over and over. All of this is very poor MMORPG design. Works for a regular game but not really for a MMORPG.
Now thats all said look what would happen if you had well designed PvP built into the game. Note not open PvP but well designed. 2 Areas where each faction starts would be NPC controlled and policed. then in between a deadmans land. There you would have all the good stuff to allow your crafters to make better weapons and towns that you can capture to allow points to rest and heal, along with being forward resupply and manufacturing out posts. Not to mention sending out NPC patrols to help protect the industrial members of the faction. Suddenly the game becomes this Epic struggle where even PvEers like my self don't mind going because you are on constant quests against other players that are significantly more dynamic then any AI will be.
I think the largest issues with MMORPGS is they try to be story games and you eventually run out of stories. While PVE is great for Single/Small groups it tends to break down in a MMO as the game shoulod be designed for you to play on for a longer period of time. PvP (note meaningfull PvP) if done properly can offer significant amount of playability to a game. Though I will add that level are also another hold over from single player games/pen and Paper as it either makes it easier for DMs or as a restricter on characters to prevent them from deviating from the story. Very shallow but broad skill trees work much better with MMOs.
Nic, while I agree that WoW has issues, it has 6.5 million people, more then every other MMO in history, combined, so it's obviously doing something right. There are more PvE realms then PvP, and WoW's numbers are going up, not down, so obviously all of the problems people throw out here are cosmetic at best...that, or we're looking at the typical forum mentality of .5% of the people sitting here complaining about a game that more people are playing than live in most US metropolitan areas (or states, for that matter).
PvP is not required for an MMO to be successful. EQ released without it. CoH released without it. Many successful MMO's have released without it. However, PvP guys have money, and often have more dedication to a game then PvE players, so it's EASY momey. PvE players get bored if the devs don't throw them candy, PvP players use each other to entertain themselves, or PvE guys who stand still too long Any dev in their right mind wants a piece of that money, which means throwing the PvP guys a bone.
People need to stop thinking in absolutes, because all absolutes are wrong in this context: All Static MMO's fail! - Wrong, WoW is static. WoW's PvP sucks! - Maybe, but more people PvP in WoW than EQ, EQ2, CoH, SWG, etc combined, so obviously it's attractive to a LOT of people. All Level based systems fail! - Wrong, obviously not.
I know folks hate it when people use WoWs numbers, but they're unavoidable and ignoring them is...ignorant
Personally I think WoW's PvP implementation is the best in any MMO ever (obviously WoW's numbers prove me right! ) It could certainly use some work, but that's true of everything everywhere. I personally am looking forward to the PvP ladders and the G4 coverage...what other game can you say you are the BEST PvP'r out of 6.5 million people? No tourney in the world has that many participants!
WoW has no world PvP, its game for carebears, thats a fact. I wish there was some hc PvP game, im talking ffa PvP with full loot and exp/gold reward for killing people and penalty for those who die.
Originally posted by MacAllen Nic, while I agree that WoW has issues, it has 6.5 million people, more then every other MMO in history, combined, so it's obviously doing something right. There are more PvE realms then PvP, and WoW's numbers are going up, not down, so obviously all of the problems people throw out here are cosmetic at best...that, or we're looking at the typical forum mentality of .5% of the people sitting here complaining about a game that more people are playing than live in most US metropolitan areas (or states, for that matter). PvP is not required for an MMO to be successful. EQ released without it. CoH released without it. Many successful MMO's have released without it. However, PvP guys have money, and often have more dedication to a game then PvE players, so it's EASY momey. PvE players get bored if the devs don't throw them candy, PvP players use each other to entertain themselves, or PvE guys who stand still too long Any dev in their right mind wants a piece of that money, which means throwing the PvP guys a bone. People need to stop thinking in absolutes, because all absolutes are wrong in this context: All Static MMO's fail! - Wrong, WoW is static. WoW's PvP sucks! - Maybe, but more people PvP in WoW than EQ, EQ2, CoH, SWG, etc combined, so obviously it's attractive to a LOT of people. All Level based systems fail! - Wrong, obviously not. I know folks hate it when people use WoWs numbers, but they're unavoidable and ignoring them is...ignorant Personally I think WoW's PvP implementation is the best in any MMO ever (obviously WoW's numbers prove me right! ) It could certainly use some work, but that's true of everything everywhere. I personally am looking forward to the PvP ladders and the G4 coverage...what other game can you say you are the BEST PvP'r out of 6.5 million people? No tourney in the world has that many participants!
Well alot of people in WoW have no idea about any other MMORPG, I can speak for a large majority of the people I know who play and can make a good guess on that using the MMORPG chart distrabution. And about 40 of my friends only play WoW because the other 39 play it. That said I did not say they don't work, its just it makes for a poor game design. Why do all my friends PvP in WoW because doing that raid for the 40th time just got annoyings o there isn't anything else to do.
WoW opened up the MMORPG market to the masses but by far did alot of harm in what is expected. I started in CoH and WoW doing the whole PvE system and when I went to EVE(always was a Space ship nut) I resisted PvP for as long as I could. Then I actually helped take a chunk out of deadmans space I realize what I was missing from my previous MMOs a truely persistant world where what you do matters. slowly i'm prying my friends away from WoW and though many don't stay with EVE they realize that with WoW they were paying for a glorified Diablo where the servers could shut down as soon as you log off and it wouldn't matter.
And EQ, CoH, and in WoW I have heard the same complaints in the lack of end game content. And not surpriseing every single one of them have PvP in them now... think its a coincidence
Originally posted by Nicoli Well alot of people in WoW have no idea about any other MMORPG, I can speak for a large majority of the people I know who play and can make a good guess on that using the MMORPG chart distrabution. And about 40 of my friends only play WoW because the other 39 play it. That said I did not say they don't work, its just it makes for a poor game design. Why do all my friends PvP in WoW because doing that raid for the 40th time just got annoyings o there isn't anything else to do.
WoW opened up the MMORPG market to the masses but by far did alot of harm in what is expected. I started in CoH and WoW doing the whole PvE system and when I went to EVE(always was a Space ship nut) I resisted PvP for as long as I could. Then I actually helped take a chunk out of deadmans space I realize what I was missing from my previous MMOs a truely persistant world where what you do matters. slowly i'm prying my friends away from WoW and though many don't stay with EVE they realize that with WoW they were paying for a glorified Diablo where the servers could shut down as soon as you log off and it wouldn't matter.
And EQ, CoH, and in WoW I have heard the same complaints in the lack of end game content. And not surpriseing every single one of them have PvP in them now... think its a coincidence
Of course a lot of people in WoW haven't experienced other MMO's...prior to WoW, the MMO market was what, 400k folks? WoW redefined the market and met the expectations of a ton of people who didn't have their minds filled with bitter ideas...in short, WoW is the MMO for the normal folks, not the angry forum dwelling 30k who know exactly how a MMO should be written, know no other MMO has come close, know they all suck, and only this bitter 30k could use the words "poor MMO" and "WoW" in the same sentence...6.5 million people makes WoW the richest MMO ever
EQ added PvP long before anyone was at end game, but it was slapped on with duct tape and sucked, it alienated more people than it attracted.
CoH added PvP after they lost 45% of their market, and have never recovered it. Anyone who enjoys PvP doesn't do CoH because, again, it was slapped on with duct tape.
WoW's PvP was in the game day 1. It's gone through lots of iterations and changed more then any other MMO's PvP (including Shadowbane, which is ALL PvP) in response to customer concerns. They add PvP servers quarterly and aren't retiring any, so obviously WoW PvP has what people want.
You speak for your 40 folks who, regardless of their reasons, are still paying Blizzard, just like the other 6.5 million. People who write a check to the company they're complaining about don't have a lot of credibility Regardless, we need to stop bashing the most successful MMO in history (because it's pointless) and get back on topic...The effects of world PvP in Wow.
On PvE servers, there is no involuntary PvP, world or otherwise, so there is no impact.
On PvP servers, World PvP has a number of Effects: - It allows you to kill farmers you don't like - It creates an environment of tension, which is intentional, and quite enjoyable to millions of PvP players - It attracts millions of PvP players, as well as whiners who type how awful it is with their left hands while signing checks to Blizzard with their right
World PvP in WoW is not only not going to be nerfed, it's becoming core in BC. One of the center cities in Outland is 100% based on world PvP...if you don't fight, you lose the town and can't go there to get the quests...if you have the town, you're constantly being ambushed and ganked and bombed. Outland is all about world PvP, so if you don't like it now, I'd cancel before it hits
Of course a lot of people in WoW haven't experienced other MMO's...prior to WoW, the MMO market was what, 400k folks? WoW redefined the market and met the expectations of a ton of people who didn't have their minds filled with bitter ideas...in short, WoW is the MMO for the normal folks, not the angry forum dwelling 30k who know exactly how a MMO should be written, know no other MMO has come close, know they all suck, and only this bitter 30k could use the words "poor MMO" and "WoW" in the same sentence...6.5 million people makes WoW the richest MMO ever EQ added PvP long before anyone was at end game, but it was slapped on with duct tape and sucked, it alienated more people than it attracted. CoH added PvP after they lost 45% of their market, and have never recovered it. Anyone who enjoys PvP doesn't do CoH because, again, it was slapped on with duct tape. WoW's PvP was in the game day 1. It's gone through lots of iterations and changed more then any other MMO's PvP (including Shadowbane, which is ALL PvP) in response to customer concerns. They add PvP servers quarterly and aren't retiring any, so obviously WoW PvP has what people want. You speak for your 40 folks who, regardless of their reasons, are still paying Blizzard, just like the other 6.5 million. People who write a check to the company they're complaining about don't have a lot of credibility Regardless, we need to stop bashing the most successful MMO in history (because it's pointless) and get back on topic...The effects of world PvP in Wow. On PvE servers, there is no involuntary PvP, world or otherwise, so there is no impact. On PvP servers, World PvP has a number of Effects: - It allows you to kill farmers you don't like - It creates an environment of tension, which is intentional, and quite enjoyable to millions of PvP players - It attracts millions of PvP players, as well as whiners who type how awful it is with their left hands while signing checks to Blizzard with their right World PvP in WoW is not only not going to be nerfed, it's becoming core in BC. One of the center cities in Outland is 100% based on world PvP...if you don't fight, you lose the town and can't go there to get the quests...if you have the town, you're constantly being ambushed and ganked and bombed. Outland is all about world PvP, so if you don't like it now, I'd cancel before it hits Well its more Like 140 people as I help at a gaming center. But besides that those effects are pretty bad. And the pvp in WoW add tension right up till you realize that nothing bad happens when you die then I could have caredless (yes I played on a PVP server, also past tense I got out and only borrow my friends account to try all the new content that comes out). And again surprisingly things that I stated in my orginal reply are coming to WoW, PvP based territory control for access to resources in this case quests. Blizzard is not stupid, they know how to adapt really well its what they do best. I also mention that meaningful PVP should be designbed from the start or else it does turn into a something that will turn people off alot more than it brings them in.
Originally posted by Nicoli Well its more Like 140 people as I help at a gaming center. But besides that those effects are pretty bad. And the pvp in WoW add tension right up till you realize that nothing bad happens when you die then I could have caredless (yes I played on a PVP server, also past tense I got out and only borrow my friends account to try all the new content that comes out). And again surprisingly things that I stated in my orginal reply are coming to WoW, PvP based territory control for access to resources in this case quests. Blizzard is not stupid, they know how to adapt really well its what they do best. I also mention that meaningful PVP should be designbed from the start or else it does turn into a something that will turn people off alot more than it brings them in.
Amusingly enough, nothing happening on death is one of the things people LOVE about WoW. I read this fascinating article about the devs at Vanguard, making an MMO for "real men, men who love corpse runs", LOL. Nothing happens when you die in Unreal, yet millions play it. Counterstrike, Halflife, pick your FPs, nothing happens and people line up to play them. Why? Because the kill is it's own reward.
Again, the forum minority and their "no death penalties = MMO sux!" are just that, the minority. As the old timer on my server, I'm often speaking to the new kids about death penalties and every single one of them said they'd never play a game that punished them for experimenting. Death penalties are for those 30k bitter forum junkies who always envision the "perfect MMO" that no 3 of them can agree on and 10k folks would play at most. They're the ones that crank out Permanent Death as the end-all-be-all....but it isn't, because PD is what happens in real life, and no one pays $15/month to be reminded about how much real life sucks.
That's one of the reasons world PvP in WoW is so non-impactive...nothing happens. What did you lose, a few moments? How inconvenienced are you, truly? It's like driving along on the road and seeing some teenager flip you off, just because he can....how hurt are you, truly? Only as much as you allow yourself to be. And, if you get all wound up and upset over being ganked, the 15 year old ganker won hands down, and would likely be in a rapture if he knew how much control he had over you
Not sure where I mention permadeath... In fact I'm pretty sure I think thats the stupidest idea for a persistant gaming world ever created. But losing the equipment on your body works just fine. The I have the uber sword of doom mentality disappears real fast and your happy if you can get a guy trained as a blacksmith can turn out just slightly better than average besides that you don't care about the high end gear. I had that same i'll never like losing my stuff attitude till I actually had that risk, you really get ttha tense feeling as you try to hang on with every last ounce of your skill till either help arrives or you can get away.
written by MacAllen That's one of the reasons world PvP in WoW is so non-impactive...nothing happens. What did you lose, a few moments? How inconvenienced are you, truly? It's like driving along on the road and seeing some teenager flip you off, just because he can....how hurt are you, truly? Only as much as you allow yourself to be. And, if you get all wound up and upset over being ganked, the 15 year old ganker won hands down, and would likely be in a rapture if he knew how much control he had over you
i'm missing something here because you go from the PvP servers makes you tense to it doesn't matter. If I didn't want to PvP on the PvP server I just stood there let them kill me then make the short run to my corpse and kept going.
Yes FPS games are fun, yes deaths don't matter, though surprisingly the ones that stick around the longest arethe ones with the clan based ranks and in the games for your ranking how often you die DOES matter. And plus most of those games are played on a far more interactive enviroment with groups of friends, that is any reasonable time after release. there is always that mad rush then you either get organized to give it a point or you stop playing which I usually do.
I like carebears. I like that they enjoy a game's background so much that they don't care if they need to grind a little to experience it. I like that they build strategies to fight against mobs the best way possible, etc... Even though that's not my thing, i think that's kinda cool.
I'm nearly 100% PvP-oriented. I'm always up for an even (or uneven, if I am the one at a disadvantage] fight which will give me an adrenaline rush. I don't get this rush if I PK lowbies, camp or gank small-groups with a raid, obviously. People who do that on a daily basis are just troubled people. PvP existence is not at fault here.
So when i read anti-PvP carebear extremists like DeadthWolf2u, who say there is no place for PvP in MMOs, it makes me want to camp them until I fall asleep in front of my PC. No wonder they get PKed, they must have that sick aura IG too that makes you want to destroy their game experience, just like they aim to do for us (true?) PvPers by removing PvP content in MMOs.
I laugh each time someone says "PvPers should not play MMos, FPSs are made for them". Well, guess what... PvPers could say the same : "Quit MMOs carebears ! They are non-MMO games made for PvEers who want to team-up with mates : they are called cooperative RPGs : Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, etc... "
MMOs add the 'huge community" factor to everyone's game experience, not just PVEers. Just Bear with it !
its not fair its not fair, poor me cause i suck.. i'll stab all of you allies and baby horde without remorse or regard for level, do something about it besides bellyaching.. and yes 2 undergeared 50s can still spank on a teir 3 60 so get some friends, theres other people playing wow also *shock*. if not go play some console games they will wipe ur bum for ya and hold ur hand crossing the road.
I love PvP. I am a true killer that loves nothing more to fight while leveling and sometimes get slaughtered in the attempt.
With that said, I have a solution that may not be creditable to some, but to other's I think the value is worth it.
This solution is Simple try to go level PvP range for World PvP. 1-24, 25-37, 38-49, 50-60 would be the pvp ranges. Keep in mind this IS NOT for BG's and is only intact to asure semi-fair fights in World PvP.
I think this solution is great and some may agree, but when some disagree, you are simply saying you have a better idea, most likely a better pvp range, but the semi-balance these levels bring is TOTALLY worth it.
Comments
Joe: How do you folks out there feel about griefing and open PVP?
I have NEVER camped/griefed anyone in my entire mmo gaming life... but if I saw you in a game, I would camp and grief you till my dick fell off. why?
Joe: Before anybody really gets into why I'm on a PvP server and not a PvE server, its simple why would I want to limit my options.
Because of 'reasoning' like that, (if you could call that reasoning). ... so you want to be FREE (not limited) to do what? have a few battles with humans in a virtual world? Why? (maybe because like everyone else you get a little bored clicking mines or killing respawnable mobs)? You never really said what you wanted to be free (not limited) to do...
So I have to guess from the other stuff you said about 'versus' that you want to be free to fight other humans as long as the fight is fair and equal? Of course every single swing is a random thing... a random chance to hit someone, a random chance they will not parry, block, or dodge, and if you hit them, then a random amount of damage. So suppose we could define 'fair' as being this: if two people fought each other 100 times, it would work out where each person won between 40-60 percent of the time? And I guess a 90-10 split would 'unfair'? And even given that, I suppose if multiple people are involved, that each side would need to have the same number of people? Then there is the whole level difference..... and mixed together is also a factor, because I remember winning with multiple lower-levels going against fewer higher levels and killing them all. And once such a 'fair' fight was defined, contrived, and actually occured... I suppose you want it to be repeatable, and yet everyone have the option to terminate the activity when they desired?
So to me it sounds like you want to be free to have ONLY fair fights (fair being a random win probability between 40-60 percent let's say), that groups will be even, and that it will not interfere with your sometimes short schedule of playtime.
And yet, such structured, even, and fair instances exist on PVE SERVERS!! They are called battlegrounds. Each side has the same number of people, level ranges are enforced, there is even a reason to do them, as you could grind out honor/faction. And if you don't have much time on any given night, you can go quest/grind money and NOT be bothered by other players. Given all that, you reject the implemention of everything you desire, to play on a pvp server, so you can be free to experience what? The things you don't like?
Sorry, but that's the kind of thinking that drives me batty... makes no sense whatsoever.
Debates between soft-pvpers and almost-PvE'ers aren't really debates I'm afraid.
Also, I don't think a pve'er rolling on a pvp server 'to keep their options open' is a valid reason. Clearly they should be on PvE. One of my biggest frustrations is PvE'ers who roll PvP then try to make the system more carebare to suit their own needs. Get a transfer or re-roll pve mate.
On PvP servers, a contested zone means what it says on the tin. One faction or the other will hold sway over certain areas and that's part of the fun. If it's too hot in one particular zone then move on. For instance, Stranglethorn Vale is always good for PvP but there are less contested areas where players can go to level up and bypass that zone completely.
Ganking is a pain, true, but I'm on my third level 60 now & I've never found it too much of a problem. Especially when there is no death penalty in pvp.
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You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
It's the zones themselves that are contested I think. Your faction dominates it so the other faction avoids it in high numbers giving you reletively peaceful questing and farming. Some zones are war zones where you always need to watch your back. That would be the defintion of contested I think. It more or less sums up what you are walking into when you cross the border.
I do agree that it should be more purposeful but I think we'll have to wait for Warhammer Online for that.
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You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
Joe Iuliani put it the best way I have heard it so far.
Why is WoW the center of every mmorpg topic? It doesn't qualify to be the center of attention it's a cartoony game for kids.
Ok to the point, PvP does NOT belong in any mmorpg period. Not only is it nuts when it's a level based game but the shear amount of people who use scripts and other forms of hacks and exploits only cause the real grief here. Ganking and all that no skill stuff are just that, no skill.
Why the children think they need PvP in these game types is beyond me. If you want to really have skill go play FPS online games where your skill on the keyboard and mouse determines your success. Yes some people use hacks in those games but not as much to the shear number of players who do in mmorpgs.
There's no skill or honor in killing other players in mmorpg's, FACT. What about the players who actually have lives outside of games i.e. full time jobs and real life responsibilties versus the losers who have 24/7 to max out their character then start griefing low level players. Where we only have so much time to play a game we are PAYING for to be griefed by immature morons.
Why 90 something percent of companies incorporate PvP into their online games is a very bad move which can cost them literally thousands of subscribers.
I have played almost every mmorpg and I have only seen 2 or a little more if that that got PvP right when their title first launched. So far most mmorpg's out there have totally screwed up PvP mechanics completely.
1. SKILL is irrelevant. It's not about 'winning or loosing', it's about having some degree of UNPREDICTABILITY, some degree of dynamism to an otherwise boring repetitive game. You are obviously replying to some taunt made by a kid who pwnd you are whatever... just say it with me... "kids will be kids...I really don't care... this is only a game".
2. I need PVP and I'm not "children"... got 3 children myself... that play MMOs. "attack the man" technique is of course irrelevent. I have a life, job, wife, kids, business, and I want pvp in an mmo. When I want to feel 'skilled' I play fps... sure. I want pvp in an mmo because I'm not rainman.
3. IF a game provides PVE servers (as does WoW, eq2, etc), then complaints about GRIEFING are irrelevent. You can play on PVE servers and have EVERYTHING you desire... why do you care whether pvp servers exist at all? Then to even hint that you would quit a game ("loosing literally thousands of subscribers") because pvp exists, when you could of course play on a pve server, is absolutely insane.
4. most MMOs have screwed up pvp mechanics completely. Well, I might agree with that statement... you have a point there perhaps. There is of course a sure fire way to answer that. Create multiple servers, each with some slightly altered pvp mechanic. Then let the people/customers decide. For that matter, they are deciding between pve and pvp servers right now, by the fact that both exist, and the customers go to one or the other. I don't know the exact breakdown, but I suspect there are more pve players in wow. But I don't think it's 90-10 or anything... a little closer to 50-50 maybe. So if either of those categories are "too broad", then companies should have various alterations of the game mechanics and see how server populations evolve.
But then again, all this is assuming that the SOLUTION to the existing broken mechanics you claim to exist are actually defineable, reasonable, and can be implemented. You didn't say what was broken, and then you didn't say how it could be fixed... so who knows.
Background: 42 year old professional, WoW is my 28th MMO (19 of which were alpha/betas), multiple 60's on PvE and PvP realms, yadda yadda yadda.
I am not a PvP player. I never have been, never will be, it is not my style. That said, I do understand it, have done it, and know the score. I play on a PvP server because IRL friends play there. I have never been griefed, though I have been ganked, and that's just part of the experience.
Killing someone on a PvP server is not griefing, no matter how you slice it. The Horde and Alliance are at war, they are out to kill each other, it's canon. If you are in a contested zone and allow your health to get low, you deserve to die. If you are not paying attention and you get ganked by a rogue, you deserve to die. If you tape $100 bills all over your body and go walking through some high-crime neighborhood at 2am, you deserve to die.
If you don't want non-consensual PvP, then play on a PvE server and have the "best" elements of PvP in the battlegrounds. On a PvE server, if you don't want to PvP, you don't. If you do, you /pvp and you are. You are 100% in control of your experience on a carebear server. I know, I did it.
If you make a toon on a PvP server, you are told when you auto-flag, and if you aren't paying attention, then you get to die. You assume you will be ganked at every moment, and act accordingly...that is the PvP experience, not just in WoW, but any MMO that allows non-consensual PvP. It's not griefing, it's called tactics. If the OP feels that the only real PvP is when Ally player A walks up to Horde player B, ensures they are of the proper level, gets their attention, slaps them in the face with a gauntlet, then awaits their reply, they are SERIOUSLY detached from reality.
You go AFK on a PvP server in a contested zone, you are going to die, guaranteed. You get in over your head and overpull some mobs, you are going to get ganked. These are facts of life on a PvP server, and not even remotely griefing.
The OP needs to transfer to a PvE server and stop being so sensitive. People who bash PvP in general simply don't understand it and are showing their intolerance of things they don't understand. Folks enjoy it, obviously, so condemning it won't make it go away or less popular, nor will Blizzard suddenly close all the PvP servers because a handful of forum campers disapprove
I've said it before, PvP in mmorpgs is a pointless affair as long as levels exist.
You are simply pitting your "more time spent stats" against "less
time spent stats" so griefing people is just a pathetic expression of
your own desire for power.
It's cheap, boring, and stops the such games from have mass appeal.
Would an MMORPG game work if it didn't have levels?
No matter how high you set the level cap, people will reach that level, so what will they do when they reach that cap? If you cant keep them interested at this point, then people will max out and get bored. If you can keep them interested at this point, they why force people to go through all the leveling in order to get to and see this content that had created for max-levels? If you dont have levels at all, then you only have to balance classes for one level (instead of making them balanced 50 times over - once for each level), and new players can play with vetrans, friends can play with friends. Forming guilds would be easier, raids would be easier, and everyone who plays the game can feel like they can contribute. Also, levels cause economy problems (if you make higher level creatures drop more/better loot then you have twinking, etc)
NPC driven Content
NPC driven content is a holdover from the
Pen and Paper roleplaying days when you only have 5 people and you have
to use NPCs to fill the many characters. NPCs were also used to direct
players and allow a Single person to attempt to create a populated and
immersive enviroment by directing players through a small area of the
world that is easy to plan out ahead of time. Now in MMORPGs and WoW specifically, what
happens is that you eventually reach a point where the developers
cannot create content faster than players can Beat/finish the old
stuff. end result the "raiding issue" with make .05% drops to make
players want to run the same quest repeatively to give the devs more
time to make more content.
Now NPCs do have a place in the game but more as stand-ins when you need to guarntee other characters on side quests.
Static World
Nothing ever changes in WoW, The reason is in order to have the really well scripted instanced events its best to have people in as predefined area as possible. if it was there yesterday
more and likely it will be there tommorrow and the next day and the
next day. When was the last time you logged into the WoW forums to see
if anything major had happened to the game world when you left? doubt
you ever did. the lack of PvP built in the game through Conquerable lands/resources means that there is no true reason to fight for control of teritory. Further driving...
Poor Crafting
Well its another side effect from the NPC driven content/raiding. You
need to have uber items to make people want to repeat that same quest
for that .05% drop rate. So that means that in the end crafted items
have to be worse then raid items. That all ends up to be the problem in
WoW, only a select few trade skills are actually useful in the long
run. And to add to this problem is the fact that equipment is never
destroyed/lossed so there is no reason NOT to use the uber raid drops
further lowering demand on player crafted items. With Item destruction/looting having that almighty Sword of destruction +7 isn't as great if it gets destroyed/ taken your first time out. Instead having a slew of ready made easily built swords is much more important.
Horrible PVP
Now all the above leads us to this. Having both Level and equipment
being a major factor in who wins, on top of absolutely no REAL effect
on the game world makes WoW PvP bad. So to get people to PvP they use a honor system that just turns it into another work for that .05% drop item game to get you to do it over and over. All of this is very poor MMORPG design. Works for a regular game but not really for a MMORPG.
Now thats all said look what would happen if you had well designed PvP built into the game. Note not open PvP but well designed. 2 Areas where each faction starts would be NPC controlled and policed. then in between a deadmans land. There you would have all the good stuff to allow your crafters to make better weapons and towns that you can capture to allow points to rest and heal, along with being forward resupply and manufacturing out posts. Not to mention sending out NPC patrols to help protect the industrial members of the faction. Suddenly the game becomes this Epic struggle where even PvEers like my self don't mind going because you are on constant quests against other players that are significantly more dynamic then any AI will be.
I think the largest issues with MMORPGS is they try to be story games and you eventually run out of stories. While PVE is great for Single/Small groups it tends to break down in a MMO as the game shoulod be designed for you to play on for a longer period of time. PvP (note meaningfull PvP) if done properly can offer significant amount of playability to a game. Though I will add that level are also another hold over from single player games/pen and Paper as it either makes it easier for DMs or as a restricter on characters to prevent them from deviating from the story. Very shallow but broad skill trees work much better with MMOs.
Anyway thats my 2 cents on the subject.
Nic, while I agree that WoW has issues, it has 6.5 million people, more then every other MMO in history, combined, so it's obviously doing something right. There are more PvE realms then PvP, and WoW's numbers are going up, not down, so obviously all of the problems people throw out here are cosmetic at best...that, or we're looking at the typical forum mentality of .5% of the people sitting here complaining about a game that more people are playing than live in most US metropolitan areas (or states, for that matter).
PvP is not required for an MMO to be successful. EQ released without it. CoH released without it. Many successful MMO's have released without it. However, PvP guys have money, and often have more dedication to a game then PvE players, so it's EASY momey. PvE players get bored if the devs don't throw them candy, PvP players use each other to entertain themselves, or PvE guys who stand still too long
Any dev in their right mind wants a piece of that money, which means throwing the PvP guys a bone.
People need to stop thinking in absolutes, because all absolutes are wrong in this context:
All Static MMO's fail! - Wrong, WoW is static.
WoW's PvP sucks! - Maybe, but more people PvP in WoW than EQ, EQ2, CoH, SWG, etc combined, so obviously it's attractive to a LOT of people.
All Level based systems fail! - Wrong, obviously not.
I know folks hate it when people use WoWs numbers, but they're unavoidable and ignoring them is...ignorant
Personally I think WoW's PvP implementation is the best in any MMO ever (obviously WoW's numbers prove me right!
) It could certainly use some work, but that's true of everything everywhere. I personally am looking forward to the PvP ladders and the G4 coverage...what other game can you say you are the BEST PvP'r out of 6.5 million people? No tourney in the world has that many participants! 
I wish there was some hc PvP game, im talking ffa PvP with full loot and exp/gold reward for killing people and penalty for those who die.
WoW opened up the MMORPG market to the masses but by far did alot of harm in what is expected. I started in CoH and WoW doing the whole PvE system and when I went to EVE(always was a Space ship nut) I resisted PvP for as long as I could. Then I actually helped take a chunk out of deadmans space I realize what I was missing from my previous MMOs a truely persistant world where what you do matters. slowly i'm prying my friends away from WoW and though many don't stay with EVE they realize that with WoW they were paying for a glorified Diablo where the servers could shut down as soon as you log off and it wouldn't matter.
And EQ, CoH, and in WoW I have heard the same complaints in the lack of end game content. And not surpriseing every single one of them have PvP in them now... think its a coincidence
Of course a lot of people in WoW haven't experienced other MMO's...prior to WoW, the MMO market was what, 400k folks? WoW redefined the market and met the expectations of a ton of people who didn't have their minds filled with bitter ideas...in short, WoW is the MMO for the normal folks, not the angry forum dwelling 30k who know exactly how a MMO should be written, know no other MMO has come close, know they all suck, and only this bitter 30k could use the words "poor MMO" and "WoW" in the same sentence...6.5 million people makes WoW the richest MMO ever
EQ added PvP long before anyone was at end game, but it was slapped on with duct tape and sucked, it alienated more people than it attracted.
CoH added PvP after they lost 45% of their market, and have never recovered it. Anyone who enjoys PvP doesn't do CoH because, again, it was slapped on with duct tape.
WoW's PvP was in the game day 1. It's gone through lots of iterations and changed more then any other MMO's PvP (including Shadowbane, which is ALL PvP) in response to customer concerns. They add PvP servers quarterly and aren't retiring any, so obviously WoW PvP has what people want.
You speak for your 40 folks who, regardless of their reasons, are still paying Blizzard, just like the other 6.5 million. People who write a check to the company they're complaining about don't have a lot of credibility
Regardless, we need to stop bashing the most successful MMO in history (because it's pointless) and get back on topic...The effects of world PvP in Wow.
On PvE servers, there is no involuntary PvP, world or otherwise, so there is no impact.
On PvP servers, World PvP has a number of Effects:
- It allows you to kill farmers you don't like
- It creates an environment of tension, which is intentional, and quite enjoyable to millions of PvP players
- It attracts millions of PvP players, as well as whiners who type how awful it is with their left hands while signing checks to Blizzard with their right
World PvP in WoW is not only not going to be nerfed, it's becoming core in BC. One of the center cities in Outland is 100% based on world PvP...if you don't fight, you lose the town and can't go there to get the quests...if you have the town, you're constantly being ambushed and ganked and bombed. Outland is all about world PvP, so if you don't like it now, I'd cancel before it hits
EQ added PvP long before anyone was at end game, but it was slapped on with duct tape and sucked, it alienated more people than it attracted.
CoH added PvP after they lost 45% of their market, and have never recovered it. Anyone who enjoys PvP doesn't do CoH because, again, it was slapped on with duct tape.
WoW's PvP was in the game day 1. It's gone through lots of iterations and changed more then any other MMO's PvP (including Shadowbane, which is ALL PvP) in response to customer concerns. They add PvP servers quarterly and aren't retiring any, so obviously WoW PvP has what people want.
You speak for your 40 folks who, regardless of their reasons, are still paying Blizzard, just like the other 6.5 million. People who write a check to the company they're complaining about don't have a lot of credibility
On PvE servers, there is no involuntary PvP, world or otherwise, so there is no impact.
On PvP servers, World PvP has a number of Effects:
- It allows you to kill farmers you don't like
- It creates an environment of tension, which is intentional, and quite enjoyable to millions of PvP players
- It attracts millions of PvP players, as well as whiners who type how awful it is with their left hands while signing checks to Blizzard with their right
World PvP in WoW is not only not going to be nerfed, it's becoming core in BC. One of the center cities in Outland is 100% based on world PvP...if you don't fight, you lose the town and can't go there to get the quests...if you have the town, you're constantly being ambushed and ganked and bombed. Outland is all about world PvP, so if you don't like it now, I'd cancel before it hits
Well its more Like 140 people as I help at a gaming center. But besides that those effects are pretty bad. And the pvp in WoW add tension right up till you realize that nothing bad happens when you die then I could have caredless (yes I played on a PVP server, also past tense I got out and only borrow my friends account to try all the new content that comes out). And again surprisingly things that I stated in my orginal reply are coming to WoW, PvP based territory control for access to resources in this case quests. Blizzard is not stupid, they know how to adapt really well its what they do best. I also mention that meaningful PVP should be designbed from the start or else it does turn into a something that will turn people off alot more than it brings them in.
Amusingly enough, nothing happening on death is one of the things people LOVE about WoW. I read this fascinating article about the devs at Vanguard, making an MMO for "real men, men who love corpse runs", LOL. Nothing happens when you die in Unreal, yet millions play it. Counterstrike, Halflife, pick your FPs, nothing happens and people line up to play them. Why? Because the kill is it's own reward.
Again, the forum minority and their "no death penalties = MMO sux!" are just that, the minority. As the old timer on my server, I'm often speaking to the new kids about death penalties and every single one of them said they'd never play a game that punished them for experimenting. Death penalties are for those 30k bitter forum junkies who always envision the "perfect MMO" that no 3 of them can agree on and 10k folks would play at most. They're the ones that crank out Permanent Death as the end-all-be-all....but it isn't, because PD is what happens in real life, and no one pays $15/month to be reminded about how much real life sucks.
That's one of the reasons world PvP in WoW is so non-impactive...nothing happens. What did you lose, a few moments? How inconvenienced are you, truly? It's like driving along on the road and seeing some teenager flip you off, just because he can....how hurt are you, truly? Only as much as you allow yourself to be. And, if you get all wound up and upset over being ganked, the 15 year old ganker won hands down, and would likely be in a rapture if he knew how much control he had over you
written by MacAllen
That's one of the reasons world PvP in WoW is so
non-impactive...nothing happens. What did you lose, a few moments?
How inconvenienced are you, truly? It's like driving along on the road
and seeing some teenager flip you off, just because he can....how hurt
are you, truly? Only as much as you allow yourself to be. And, if you
get all wound up and upset over being ganked, the 15 year old ganker
won hands down, and would likely be in a rapture if he knew how much
control he had over you
i'm missing something here because you go from the PvP servers makes you tense to it doesn't matter. If I didn't want to PvP on the PvP server I just stood there let them kill me then make the short run to my corpse and kept going.
Yes FPS games are fun, yes deaths don't matter, though surprisingly the ones that stick around the longest arethe ones with the clan based ranks and in the games for your ranking how often you die DOES matter. And plus most of those games are played on a far more interactive enviroment with groups of friends, that is any reasonable time after release. there is always that mad rush then you either get organized to give it a point or you stop playing which I usually do.
I like carebears. I like that they enjoy a game's background so much that they don't care if they need to grind a little to experience it. I like that they build strategies to fight against mobs the best way possible, etc... Even though that's not my thing, i think that's kinda cool.
I'm nearly 100% PvP-oriented. I'm always up for an even (or uneven, if I am the one at a disadvantage] fight which will give me an adrenaline rush. I don't get this rush if I PK lowbies, camp or gank small-groups with a raid, obviously. People who do that on a daily basis are just troubled people. PvP existence is not at fault here.
So when i read anti-PvP carebear extremists like DeadthWolf2u, who say there is no place for PvP in MMOs, it makes me want to camp them until I fall asleep in front of my PC. No wonder they get PKed, they must have that sick aura IG too that makes you want to destroy their game experience, just like they aim to do for us (true?) PvPers by removing PvP content in MMOs.
I laugh each time someone says "PvPers should not play MMos, FPSs are made for them". Well, guess what... PvPers could say the same : "Quit MMOs carebears ! They are non-MMO games made for PvEers who want to team-up with mates : they are called cooperative RPGs : Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, etc... "
MMOs add the 'huge community" factor to everyone's game experience, not just PVEers. Just Bear with it !
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Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
what a bunch of whiners..
its not fair its not fair, poor me cause i suck.. i'll stab all of you allies and baby horde without remorse or regard for level, do something about it besides bellyaching.. and yes 2 undergeared 50s can still spank on a teir 3 60 so get some friends, theres other people playing wow also *shock*. if not go play some console games they will wipe ur bum for ya and hold ur hand crossing the road.
With that said, I have a solution that may not be creditable to some, but to other's I think the value is worth it.
This solution is Simple try to go level PvP range for World PvP. 1-24, 25-37, 38-49, 50-60 would be the pvp ranges.
Keep in mind this IS NOT for BG's and is only intact to asure semi-fair fights in World PvP.
I think this solution is great and some may agree, but when some disagree, you are simply saying you have a better idea, most likely a better pvp range, but the semi-balance these levels bring is TOTALLY worth it.