"I'm not sure that Leviathen and Behemoth are any more proof that people were around with dinosaurs than stories about dragons."
Who said there wasnt dragons? There were definitely some odd giant reptiles (dinosaurs) and possible there were flying reptiles that spent venom that burned. And you add in a little folklore, and voila.
"I like the 'us' usage in Genesis, but that will just have people going back to arguing the trinity."
Except uh....God wouldnt talk to himself in the third person...I dont see how that would be plausible evidence.
"
"Daniel 2:43 was talking about a kingdom. You should have included 2:42 with that, which makes it much clearer. It has nothing to do with extraterrestrials or aliens. It's talking about a kingdom which is both strong but yet brittle (the reference to the iron and the clay). People actually use this verse as a prophesy of Jesus's death. They believe the kingdom refers to the Jewish religion, and with Jesus dieing, God the father set up a new kingdom in heaven (2:44). You have to read in front of your bible passage and behind to get what was really said. I'm not sure how this ever got turned into aliens."
Except that if you read it you can see that its an earthly kingdom. (on earth) And in many times has the word cleave been used in the bible as marriage.
I'll admit its a little vague in its wording, but, why else would they not be able to cleave with one another unless their genetics were just not possible to mix? As well, miry clay=humans. Clay is frail, easy to shatter. Iron=Resilient, strong, powerful, etc.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Originally posted by Finwe Except uh....God wouldnt talk to himself in the third person...I dont see how that would be plausible evidence.
Maybe the wordage "us" actually means that, more than one. Maybe "God" isn't the only 'god'. Polytheism was around alot longer than monotheism and christianity. And one more point I forgot to bring up is the story of Noah. Read the story of Gilgamesh, which was written before the old testament. They are almost parallel to each other in mentioning the wordly flood that destroyed life.
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Originally posted by Finwe Except uh....God wouldnt talk to himself in the third person...I dont see how that would be plausible evidence.
Maybe the wordage "us" actually means that, more than one. Maybe "God" isn't the only 'god'. Polytheism was around alot longer than monotheism and christianity. And one more point I forgot to bring up is the story of Noah. Read the story of Gilgamesh, which was written before the old testament. They are almost parallel to each other in mentioning the wordly flood that destroyed life.
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
The word god can be used as wording for a very powerful being. The word Elohim is plural for god, which would be god's. In the book of hewbrew's God the father even refers to Jesus as God. Although I suppose it'd still be considered monotheism though for the whole fact God the father is the only one that has been eternally. And you can say that monotheism was believed after polytheism, but its what you believe. If you believe in Adam and Eve, obviously monotheism, if you believe in something else, well, dunno what you'd believe in so couldnt say. As for the story of Gilgamesh being written before the old testament, only was written before some of the old testament. Job was most likely pre-flood, and the book of enoch was definitely pre-flood. (Although for some reason the book of enoch wasnt cannonized) And the story of gilgamesh wouldnt of been the only account of a flood besides the Bible. As well as hindu I believe, which also spoke of 3 sons.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Uhh, well then this life must be a dream. Either that or then we arent intelligent, in that case the guy has no idea what hes talking about. So he just made a paradox.
Well actually douglass Adams is the comedy writer who wrote hitchikers guide to the galaxy a fantastic book if you ever get a chance to read it. Secondly the paradox is intentantal, it's supposed to make a statement about the state of human intellegence, and theoretical mathematics.
That and the whole fact that space cant expand.
Actually the area we consider space is constantly expanding, check about every journal out there.
quoted from Finwe Uhh, well then this life must be a dream. Either that or then we arent intelligent, in that case the guy has no idea what hes talking about. So he just made a paradox. Well actually douglass Adams is the comedy writer who wrote hitchikers guide to the galaxy a fantastic book if you ever get a chance to read it. Secondly the paradox is intentantal, it's supposed to make a statement about the state of human intellegence, and theoretical mathematics. That and the whole fact that space cant expand. Actually the area we consider space is constantly expanding, check about every journal out there.
Scientific jounrlas=A morons compendium of theories upon theories to prove their theories.
Lets think about this, how can nothingness expand into nothingness, and thus the nothingness becomes some kind of special nothingness? Let me put it into other terms, space without matter in it is considered nothingness? What do they believe outside of the universe is? Nothingness, so how can nothingness expand into nothingness? That in itself is moronic, thus proves one of my points.
Another thing, that big bang theory, which thats what expanding the universe supports itself on, and visa versa. The big bang theory if i'm correct has something to do with gasses exploding and creating the universe? Thats what I believe how that theory supposedly works.
Well lets think about this, one, how can gasses exist outside of the universe? Another one, how could matter be created out of nothing?
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
I think he meant, and I've heard, that the universe (the stars/galaxies and the breadth stars/galaxies span) is expanding out further into space (nothingness). So he's referring to space as the nothingness and the universe as matter and all the nothingness in between that matter. Anyway, I've heard that the matter of the universe is expanding outward into space (nothingness).
"Another one, how could matter be created out of nothing?"
I've thought of this many times; who hasn't? Ultimately you have to believe in an eternal god or eternal matter... or just believe in nothing and live it up and then be forgotten as the ages pass.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Originally posted by Adreal "how can nothingness expand into nothingness" I think he meant, and I've heard, that the universe (the stars/galaxies and the breadth stars/galaxies span) is expanding out further into space (nothingness). So he's referring to space as the nothingness and the universe as matter and all the nothingness in between that matter. Anyway, I've heard that the matter of the universe is expanding outward into space (nothingness). "Another one, how could matter be created out of nothing?" I've thought of this many times; who hasn't? Ultimately you have to believe in an eternal god or eternal matter... or just believe in nothing and live it up and then be forgotten as the ages pass.
Except with eternal matter, in comes the laws of entropy, and if all this matter has been around for well....eternity....Everything would be non existant. It'd all be destroy by degredation.
But then some people say some things like well how has God eternally existed? But even if you dont understand it, logic predicts it'd have to be true, why?
Well then they say that God had to of been created by a divine deity, but then it'd come into a paradox that somone would of had to of created that divine deity, and then it'd be eternal creation and would create a paradox.
I'm a rather deep thinker, and I think about alot of different things, and even though it may be confusing for some people, true logic predicts that there has to be an eternal God.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
But even if you dont understand it, logic predicts it'd have to be true, why? Well then they say that God had to of been created by a divine deity, but then it'd come into a paradox that somone would of had to of created that divine deity, and then it'd be eternal creation and would create a paradox. I'm a rather deep thinker, and I think about alot of different things, and even though it may be confusing for some people, true logic predicts that there has to be an eternal God.
Sounds like you have been reading St. Thomas Aquinas and Anslem
Anslem held the belief that if you cannot think into creation a more perfect being than God, then that proves God must exist. And Aquinas I believe said that the Universe is full of causes and effects (obviously) and that everything set in motion must have a cause and that cause is God. But when he said that he kind of contradicted himself. If everything in motion must be set in motion by something else, the what set God in motion? Just touching base with what you said above
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But even if you dont understand it, logic predicts it'd have to be true, why? Well then they say that God had to of been created by a divine deity, but then it'd come into a paradox that somone would of had to of created that divine deity, and then it'd be eternal creation and would create a paradox. I'm a rather deep thinker, and I think about alot of different things, and even though it may be confusing for some people, true logic predicts that there has to be an eternal God.
Sounds like you have been reading St. Thomas Aquinas and Anslem
Anslem held the belief that if you cannot think into creation a more perfect being than God, then that proves God must exist. And Aquinas I believe said that the Universe is full of causes and effects (obviously) and that everything set in motion must have a cause and that cause is God. But when he said that he kind of contradicted himself. If everything in motion must be set in motion by something else, the what set God in motion? Just touching base with what you said above
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Something that is eternal doesnt get set in motion. And no, I havent read any writing by any saints, I prefer to stick to the bible and just think about different things.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Originally posted by Finwe Something that is eternal doesnt get set in motion. And no, I havent read any writing by any saints, I prefer to stick to the bible and just think about different things.
I just brought it up because I took Philosophy last semester and they were some of the pro-God (not meaning that as offensive to you) speakers and it reminded me of them when you said that.
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Well that's good to hear. Maybe if I was an athiest then I would be happy. I am more agnostic then anything else. That means I hang in the middle. I don't fully believe in God, yet I don't fully believe God doesn't exist. And if you read my posts I am not being incosiderate and saying hateful comments to anyone (and Finwe if I offended you in any way I apologize). And if you (this is addressed to ChronicRick) are a christian or whatever religion you follow I can say one thing. From reading your posts and from you having the nerve to call me a bastard for no reason, your the reason why people have a negative view towards so many followers of religion. You preach and preach and say you believe and you feel that you are better than the other person, when in fact that makes yourself a hypocrite to your own beliefs. I've not once said anything negative to Finwe, we have been having a debate...simple as that. He disagrees, I disagree. No big deal until someone like you comes in and starts throwing around childish insults. And by the way. I doubt you even know what the true meaning of an atheist by your seemingly stereotypical comment on them.
edit: And I suppose your picture with a big missle on a bicycle seat with the caption "Chicks dig my ride" is a great moral example.
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
"You preach and preach and say you believe and you feel that you are better than the other person"
If any Christian feels they are better than another human being then they are mistaken, not just blatently but utterly proven wrong by Christianity itself. I believe Christians are no different than anyone else except that we (from our belief in Christ) have chosen the path of eternal life. We still have the same potential of good and evil except (I believe) God aids us in prayer if we pray for his will and the good Christian (one who studies God's Word well and meditates on it) has a less likely chance of falling as hard as another might.
"the reason why people have a negative view towards so many followers of religion"
And those people on the news who are offering holy communion to pets (in order to draw in more 'members') would be included. I don't believe Christ's body was broken merely to be fed to the dogs... nor his blood spilt to quench the thirst of animals. This, if anything, would push nonbelievers away. I have a mix of feelings on the subject (none of which are positive)...
"...Finwe, we have been having a debate...simple as that"
Indeed many interesting points being made.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Just to clear something if I was misunderstood. I was not addressing my comments above to all christians in general, or any other person who follows whatever religion they chose, I was addressing that solely to chronicrick. As seen on page 4 his post was deleted for calling me an atheist bastard, something by the way I didn't appreciate.
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quoted from Finwe Uhh, well then this life must be a dream. Either that or then we arent intelligent, in that case the guy has no idea what hes talking about. So he just made a paradox. Well actually douglass Adams is the comedy writer who wrote hitchikers guide to the galaxy a fantastic book if you ever get a chance to read it. Secondly the paradox is intentantal, it's supposed to make a statement about the state of human intellegence, and theoretical mathematics. That and the whole fact that space cant expand. Actually the area we consider space is constantly expanding, check about every journal out there.
Scientific jounrlas=A morons compendium of theories upon theories to prove their theories.
Lets think about this, how can nothingness expand into nothingness, and thus the nothingness becomes some kind of special nothingness? Let me put it into other terms, space without matter in it is considered nothingness? What do they believe outside of the universe is? Nothingness, so how can nothingness expand into nothingness? That in itself is moronic, thus proves one of my points.
Another thing, that big bang theory, which thats what expanding the universe supports itself on, and visa versa. The big bang theory if i'm correct has something to do with gasses exploding and creating the universe? Thats what I believe how that theory supposedly works.
Well lets think about this, one, how can gasses exist outside of the universe? Another one, how could matter be created out of nothing?
Thats not exactly right. The universe si thought of as its own self contained sphere. Like if you run all the way around a sphere you would end up back in the same spot u started at. Secondly about the comment of how matter can come to be? One could just as easily ask how god could come to just be.
quoted from Finwe Uhh, well then this life must be a dream. Either that or then we arent intelligent, in that case the guy has no idea what hes talking about. So he just made a paradox. Well actually douglass Adams is the comedy writer who wrote hitchikers guide to the galaxy a fantastic book if you ever get a chance to read it. Secondly the paradox is intentantal, it's supposed to make a statement about the state of human intellegence, and theoretical mathematics. That and the whole fact that space cant expand. Actually the area we consider space is constantly expanding, check about every journal out there.
Scientific jounrlas=A morons compendium of theories upon theories to prove their theories.
Lets think about this, how can nothingness expand into nothingness, and thus the nothingness becomes some kind of special nothingness? Let me put it into other terms, space without matter in it is considered nothingness? What do they believe outside of the universe is? Nothingness, so how can nothingness expand into nothingness? That in itself is moronic, thus proves one of my points.
Another thing, that big bang theory, which thats what expanding the universe supports itself on, and visa versa. The big bang theory if i'm correct has something to do with gasses exploding and creating the universe? Thats what I believe how that theory supposedly works.
Well lets think about this, one, how can gasses exist outside of the universe? Another one, how could matter be created out of nothing?
Thats not exactly right. The universe si thought of as its own self contained sphere. Like if you run all the way around a sphere you would end up back in the same spot u started at. Secondly about the comment of how matter can come to be? One could just as easily ask how god could come to just be.
Scientists think that its a sphere, but they think its just some kind of "matter sphere" so to speak, not that there is some metal shield at the end of the universe. And as I previously said, scientists think that it has no physical sphere, but rather think of a constellation, you have the whole universe on one map, and you look at all the stars and they make a sphere. Which all of it is a load of crap anyhow because it makes absolutely no sense. Their whole theory is flawed, and thats why they make even more theories to try to prove it.
God didnt come to be, God was, is, and always will be. How can I explain this? I cant, but logically its the only answer.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Originally posted by ChronicRick Athiests tend to have no morals. Just F.Y.I.
There are far too many people who cannot think for themselves and repeat the ignorant credo that Atheists are immoral because they have no fear of God's chastisement. Christians lack basic comprehension and are impossible to reach with reason and logic. They are completely unaware they are admitting without the fear of God, they too would act out immoral behavior.
Mahayana Buddhism has an extensive code of morality that never once involves a deity. Similar to Christianity, Buddhism holds that your actions have consequences. The only difference is the mechanism (karma as opposed to divine judgement).
Atheists are moral because they want to be, not because they must be and are threatened with punishment (in the next life) if they are not. Atheists are moral because it makes them feel good about themselves. Atheists are moral because when they look into a mirror they see someone they are proud of. They get validation for their moral behavior from husbands, wives, lovers, children, siblings, friends and those they do commerce with.
I don't have to list the immorality of Christianity these past two thousand years. We are all aware of it's crimes. From the Dark Ages to this present day, all the creative power of the mind, in acts of free will, expressed through the arts and sciences and the invention of new technologies to enhance or better the living conditions for humanity has been fought against by leaders of the Christian faith.
Let's look at the morality taught to Christian children. A favorite activity of many Christian ministers and Christian parents, is to tell small children the Bible account of Samson, depicting him as a great and heroic man of God, who fights for righteousness and justice. In this horrific story of bad morality, Samson makes a wager to the Philistines with a riddle, when the Philistines beat him at his game and answer the riddle correctly, Samson goes out and brutally kills 30 innocent men who had nothing to do with the wager, and steals their belongings to pay the debt. As the story goes on, in a deplorable act of animal abuse, he catches 300 foxes, ties their tails together two by two, and sets them on fire to burn the crops of the Philistines. The murderous rage of Samson is still not appeased, Samson finds the jaw bone of an ass, and murders 1,000 Philistine men. When Samson is finally subdued by the Philistine people, his rage is still not quenched, and in a final prayer to God, Samson begs God to give him strength to complete his vengeance against this people, and in a savage act of murderous brutality crushes thousands of people under a roof. This homicidal immoral story is told to young children by their Christian parents and ministers who believe they are imparting good ethical standards for their children to live by, but instead are filling children's minds with ideas that its ok to murder thousands of people if they are not God's chosen people, and that murder is justified over so small an infraction as losing a gambling bet.
Therefore, before you say that Atheists tend to have no morals, it's best to look at your own.
Originally posted by dekron Well that's good to hear. Maybe if I was an athiest then I would be happy. I am more agnostic then anything else. That means I hang in the middle. I don't fully believe in God, yet I don't fully believe God doesn't exist. And if you read my posts I am not being incosiderate and saying hateful comments to anyone (and Finwe if I offended you in any way I apologize). And if you (this is addressed to ChronicRick) are a christian or whatever religion you follow I can say one thing. From reading your posts and from you having the nerve to call me a bastard for no reason, your the reason why people have a negative view towards so many followers of religion. You preach and preach and say you believe and you feel that you are better than the other person, when in fact that makes yourself a hypocrite to your own beliefs. I've not once said anything negative to Finwe, we have been having a debate...simple as that. He disagrees, I disagree. No big deal until someone like you comes in and starts throwing around childish insults. And by the way. I doubt you even know what the true meaning of an atheist by your seemingly stereotypical comment on them. edit: And I suppose your picture with a big missle on a bicycle seat with the caption "Chicks dig my ride" is a great moral example.
-------------------------------------------- 33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
In response to Dekron, I don't need to be a good example for you. I am in fact Catholic and my sister is agnostic as well. I think that if you know what christianity is about I'm not gonna bust my ass to preach to you something you already know. If you really cared about following a certain religion, you need to do research and not listen to "people like me". I'm no televangelist (most christians aren't) and I guess it shows. I follow the basics of the Bible to give life meaning and purpose, so naturally I don't gasp and cover my eyes whenever someone says something like...well, "chicks dig my ride". If your satisfied with just living life in the middle then go ahead. I'm not gonna try and stop you. One of the goals of christians is, in fact, to bring others to christianity. It's just not my strong suit. Please don't judge christians on my behalf if I seem like a moral example. One thing that has sadly become the idea of most non-believers is that christians are out to screw everyone else and blindly waste their life. I don't know how to put it..like I said, I'm no evangelist...yet all of a sudden I represent a stereo-type bible pusher. Christians are supposed to live their life based on the ten commandments and teachings of Jesus Christ. That is the basic premise and thats what I follow. It goes alot deeper...but you probably don't care. If i'm genuinely happy with life then i'm not wasting it. And if your genuinely happy with life then I guess your not wasting it.
And I know what an athiest is about. You have decided to think for yourself and don't want the burden of following a strict lifestyle. Or maybe I don't understand, whatever. The whole "athiests tend to have no morals" thing was simply a joke, and since you couldn't see that I suppose my humor is as dry as my friends tell me it is. I apologize if I offended anyone like I apparently offended Dekron. And I don't base my life on Sampson. And humans are not perfect. If you had really paid attention you would have seen that. You would also see that Sampson did not fulfill his purpose intended by God. Thats why his eyes were gouged out. And God didn't kill him either. He killed himself.
"Christians lack basic comprehension and are impossible to reach with reason and logic"
We are people, with our own beliefs and disbeliefs, just like anybody else. I'm aware that with the title of "Christian" hanging above my head there comes a thought to everyone's mind, but you're generalizing just as the post from ChronicRick-"Athiests tend to have no morals." Your statement seems no different.
"They are completely unaware they are admitting without the fear of God, they too would act out immoral behavior"
A true Christian does what is right because he/she loves God, not because they are afraid of his "divine wrath".
"Atheists are moral because when they look into a mirror they see someone they are proud of"
The same goes for many Christians and non-Christians.
"I don't have to list the immorality of Christianity these past two thousand years. We are all aware of it's crimes. From the Dark Ages to this present day..."
Generalization again. The "christian" priests in the ancient days set down their own rules for Christianity since many of them couldn't read the Bible, themselves, it being written in Latin. Basically, you had corrupt "divine" power and no one would argue against it (except Luther). Christianity is based on Christ's principles. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe "Christianity" means Christ-like or some such thing. Look at 1 John 4:20-21 The thing is-there may be someone who says they are a Christian, but unless they do God's will it may very well be assumed they are blowing out hot air. As an old verse comes to mind-"...faith without works is dead..." I believe it means that if you believe in Christ as your Savior yet don't do God's will then ultimately your faith in Him is going to fade.
"Samson, depicting him as a great and heroic man of God, who fights for righteousness and justice"
Samson was born to be a judge (as found in the book of Judges). He was to deliver the Israelites from the Philistines. Whoever says he was a man of God must indeed be a liar or else they see something I am overlooking. Just because he was filled with the Spirit of God does not mean he was a devoted priest of God's. In short-whoever works the will of God in the Spirit of God, is most likely a man/woman of God. Samson's lifestyle ultimately lead him to a grave fate. If he walked in the path of God then he could have delivered the Israelites from the Philistines and he probably would have still been alive to see it.
"filling children's minds with ideas that its ok to murder thousands of people if they are not God's chosen people"
"Christians" who condone this really should re-examine their spiritual life. If you were refering to Christians as "God's chosen people" then you are half right. "God's chosen people" ever since the birth of Christ is everyone. "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him." -Revelation 3:20
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"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
I think Adreal put it better than I did. I am a terrible christian example I admit; and this shows that I need God. Its pretty clear that humans aren't perfect and thats another reason that we follow christianity. We can never be perfect but God helps us from falling into complete immorality. I'm not saying that people without God are immoral, but you probably follow some guidelines right? You don't go out and kill people or steal from other people or cheat on your wife do you? Its because you have a set of guidelines. These may be set down by law, but they're also God's laws. They're are plenty of things you could do that are legal but could be considered "sin-ful", like being a porn star. We need God to help us avoid temptation. (Christians aren't perfect either)
You apparantly have no idea the story of samson. Samson may of been blessed with strength, but no one ever claimed he was a completely moral man. In fact in many times in the book of judges it said he sinned. And in the end he died because of his sin, but to say Samson was a murderer would be false, considering you give stories of him killing philistines, when the philistines were known for their brutality against the jews, killing them, beating them, etc. etc.
You give the story of him killing philistines with the jawbone of an ass, why did he kill them? Because they would of killed them, they were capturing them.
Nor did he kill the foxes (which I dont see what this has to do with morality) he put some type of torch between their tails, their tails werent on fire, they were carrying a firebrand which as they would run it'd catch the ground on fire.
Lets see, the people in the temple....Oh yes....it was murder....right, first they poked out with eyes, they chained him up, made him grind flour in a prison house for a long while.
Then they took him out of the prison, put him in their temple, and tortured him for enjoyment. And then he killed them, he killed a bunch of sadistic physcho's, now if you consider that murder, you're sadly mistaken.
You give an example of that it was christianity that did immorality, that is idiotic. It was europeans, that even though they claimed that they were christians, in no way acted the way that the bible tells you to do so. Most the time the papacy wasnt even in the hands of a christian morally righteous man, but was just sold to the highest bidder for power.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
When someone comes up with the topic of considering life outside of our own planet, it usually ends up in a religous discussion. I should know; just look at my username. This happens because that thought challenges one's beliefs. Many of those that believe in a god will use theology instead of scientific reasoning to comprehend that thought.
For those of you that are Christian, my post was not suppose to be a flame. I have nothing wrong with Christian teachings of love, forgiveness, and sacrifice. I won't get into the things I do have a problem, because I rather see this subject get back on topic. I just wanted to show that athiests don't need to believe that morals come from a higher authority or teachings from a bible for us to have morals.
Comments
"I'm not sure that Leviathen and Behemoth are any more proof that people were around with dinosaurs than stories about dragons."
Who said there wasnt dragons? There were definitely some odd giant reptiles (dinosaurs) and possible there were flying reptiles that spent venom that burned. And you add in a little folklore, and voila.
"I like the 'us' usage in Genesis, but that will just have people going back to arguing the trinity."
Except uh....God wouldnt talk to himself in the third person...I dont see how that would be plausible evidence.
"
"Daniel 2:43 was talking about a kingdom. You should have included 2:42 with that, which makes it much clearer. It has nothing to do with extraterrestrials or aliens. It's talking about a kingdom which is both strong but yet brittle (the reference to the iron and the clay). People actually use this verse as a prophesy of Jesus's death. They believe the kingdom refers to the Jewish religion, and with Jesus dieing, God the father set up a new kingdom in heaven (2:44). You have to read in front of your bible passage and behind to get what was really said. I'm not sure how this ever got turned into aliens."
Except that if you read it you can see that its an earthly kingdom. (on earth) And in many times has the word cleave been used in the bible as marriage.
I'll admit its a little vague in its wording, but, why else would they not be able to cleave with one another unless their genetics were just not possible to mix? As well, miry clay=humans. Clay is frail, easy to shatter. Iron=Resilient, strong, powerful, etc.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
The word god can be used as wording for a very powerful being. The word Elohim is plural for god, which would be god's. In the book of hewbrew's God the father even refers to Jesus as God. Although I suppose it'd still be considered monotheism though for the whole fact God the father is the only one that has been eternally. And you can say that monotheism was believed after polytheism, but its what you believe. If you believe in Adam and Eve, obviously monotheism, if you believe in something else, well, dunno what you'd believe in so couldnt say. As for the story of Gilgamesh being written before the old testament, only was written before some of the old testament. Job was most likely pre-flood, and the book of enoch was definitely pre-flood. (Although for some reason the book of enoch wasnt cannonized) And the story of gilgamesh wouldnt of been the only account of a flood besides the Bible. As well as hindu I believe, which also spoke of 3 sons.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Scientific jounrlas=A morons compendium of theories upon theories to prove their theories.
Lets think about this, how can nothingness expand into nothingness, and thus the nothingness becomes some kind of special nothingness? Let me put it into other terms, space without matter in it is considered nothingness? What do they believe outside of the universe is? Nothingness, so how can nothingness expand into nothingness? That in itself is moronic, thus proves one of my points.
Another thing, that big bang theory, which thats what expanding the universe supports itself on, and visa versa. The big bang theory if i'm correct has something to do with gasses exploding and creating the universe? Thats what I believe how that theory supposedly works.
Well lets think about this, one, how can gasses exist outside of the universe? Another one, how could matter be created out of nothing?
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
"how can nothingness expand into nothingness"
I think he meant, and I've heard, that the universe (the stars/galaxies and the breadth stars/galaxies span) is expanding out further into space (nothingness). So he's referring to space as the nothingness and the universe as matter and all the nothingness in between that matter. Anyway, I've heard that the matter of the universe is expanding outward into space (nothingness).
"Another one, how could matter be created out of nothing?"
I've thought of this many times; who hasn't? Ultimately you have to believe in an eternal god or eternal matter... or just believe in nothing and live it up and then be forgotten as the ages pass.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Wow childish name calling...what's that smell?? oh a post delete.
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Except with eternal matter, in comes the laws of entropy, and if all this matter has been around for well....eternity....Everything would be non existant. It'd all be destroy by degredation.
But then some people say some things like well how has God eternally existed? But even if you dont understand it, logic predicts it'd have to be true, why?
Well then they say that God had to of been created by a divine deity, but then it'd come into a paradox that somone would of had to of created that divine deity, and then it'd be eternal creation and would create a paradox.
I'm a rather deep thinker, and I think about alot of different things, and even though it may be confusing for some people, true logic predicts that there has to be an eternal God.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
I'll teach you to delete my post! Cencorship!!!
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Give me your lunch money.
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Sounds like you have been reading St. Thomas Aquinas and Anslem
Anslem held the belief that if you cannot think into creation a more perfect being than God, then that proves God must exist. And Aquinas I believe said that the Universe is full of causes and effects (obviously) and that everything set in motion must have a cause and that cause is God. But when he said that he kind of contradicted himself. If everything in motion must be set in motion by something else, the what set God in motion? Just touching base with what you said above
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Sounds like you have been reading St. Thomas Aquinas and Anslem
Anslem held the belief that if you cannot think into creation a more perfect being than God, then that proves God must exist. And Aquinas I believe said that the Universe is full of causes and effects (obviously) and that everything set in motion must have a cause and that cause is God. But when he said that he kind of contradicted himself. If everything in motion must be set in motion by something else, the what set God in motion? Just touching base with what you said above
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Something that is eternal doesnt get set in motion. And no, I havent read any writing by any saints, I prefer to stick to the bible and just think about different things.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Post Deleted for the sake of offending someone.
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Chicks dig my ride.
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Well that's good to hear. Maybe if I was an athiest then I would be happy. I am more agnostic then anything else. That means I hang in the middle. I don't fully believe in God, yet I don't fully believe God doesn't exist. And if you read my posts I am not being incosiderate and saying hateful comments to anyone (and Finwe if I offended you in any way I apologize). And if you (this is addressed to ChronicRick) are a christian or whatever religion you follow I can say one thing. From reading your posts and from you having the nerve to call me a bastard for no reason, your the reason why people have a negative view towards so many followers of religion. You preach and preach and say you believe and you feel that you are better than the other person, when in fact that makes yourself a hypocrite to your own beliefs. I've not once said anything negative to Finwe, we have been having a debate...simple as that. He disagrees, I disagree. No big deal until someone like you comes in and starts throwing around childish insults. And by the way. I doubt you even know what the true meaning of an atheist by your seemingly stereotypical comment on them.
edit: And I suppose your picture with a big missle on a bicycle seat with the caption "Chicks dig my ride" is a great moral example.
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
"You preach and preach and say you believe and you feel that you are better than the other person"
If any Christian feels they are better than another human being then they are mistaken, not just blatently but utterly proven wrong by Christianity itself. I believe Christians are no different than anyone else except that we (from our belief in Christ) have chosen the path of eternal life. We still have the same potential of good and evil except (I believe) God aids us in prayer if we pray for his will and the good Christian (one who studies God's Word well and meditates on it) has a less likely chance of falling as hard as another might.
"the reason why people have a negative view towards so many followers of religion"
And those people on the news who are offering holy communion to pets (in order to draw in more 'members') would be included. I don't believe Christ's body was broken merely to be fed to the dogs... nor his blood spilt to quench the thirst of animals. This, if anything, would push nonbelievers away. I have a mix of feelings on the subject (none of which are positive)...
"...Finwe, we have been having a debate...simple as that"
Indeed many interesting points being made.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Scientific jounrlas=A morons compendium of theories upon theories to prove their theories.
Lets think about this, how can nothingness expand into nothingness, and thus the nothingness becomes some kind of special nothingness? Let me put it into other terms, space without matter in it is considered nothingness? What do they believe outside of the universe is? Nothingness, so how can nothingness expand into nothingness? That in itself is moronic, thus proves one of my points.
Another thing, that big bang theory, which thats what expanding the universe supports itself on, and visa versa. The big bang theory if i'm correct has something to do with gasses exploding and creating the universe? Thats what I believe how that theory supposedly works.
Well lets think about this, one, how can gasses exist outside of the universe? Another one, how could matter be created out of nothing?
Thats not exactly right. The universe si thought of as its own self contained sphere. Like if you run all the way around a sphere you would end up back in the same spot u started at. Secondly about the comment of how matter can come to be? One could just as easily ask how god could come to just be.
Scientific jounrlas=A morons compendium of theories upon theories to prove their theories.
Lets think about this, how can nothingness expand into nothingness, and thus the nothingness becomes some kind of special nothingness? Let me put it into other terms, space without matter in it is considered nothingness? What do they believe outside of the universe is? Nothingness, so how can nothingness expand into nothingness? That in itself is moronic, thus proves one of my points.
Another thing, that big bang theory, which thats what expanding the universe supports itself on, and visa versa. The big bang theory if i'm correct has something to do with gasses exploding and creating the universe? Thats what I believe how that theory supposedly works.
Well lets think about this, one, how can gasses exist outside of the universe? Another one, how could matter be created out of nothing?
Thats not exactly right. The universe si thought of as its own self contained sphere. Like if you run all the way around a sphere you would end up back in the same spot u started at. Secondly about the comment of how matter can come to be? One could just as easily ask how god could come to just be.
Scientists think that its a sphere, but they think its just some kind of "matter sphere" so to speak, not that there is some metal shield at the end of the universe. And as I previously said, scientists think that it has no physical sphere, but rather think of a constellation, you have the whole universe on one map, and you look at all the stars and they make a sphere. Which all of it is a load of crap anyhow because it makes absolutely no sense. Their whole theory is flawed, and thats why they make even more theories to try to prove it.
God didnt come to be, God was, is, and always will be. How can I explain this? I cant, but logically its the only answer.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Mahayana Buddhism has an extensive code of morality that never once involves a deity. Similar to Christianity, Buddhism holds that your actions have consequences. The only difference is the mechanism (karma as opposed to divine judgement).
Atheists are moral because they want to be, not because they must be and are threatened with punishment (in the next life) if they are not. Atheists are moral because it makes them feel good about themselves. Atheists are moral because when they look into a mirror they see someone they are proud of. They get validation for their moral behavior from husbands, wives, lovers, children, siblings, friends and those they do commerce with.
I don't have to list the immorality of Christianity these past two thousand years. We are all aware of it's crimes. From the Dark Ages to this present day, all the creative power of the mind, in acts of free will, expressed through the arts and sciences and the invention of new technologies to enhance or better the living conditions for humanity has been fought against by leaders of the Christian faith.
Let's look at the morality taught to Christian children. A favorite activity of many Christian ministers and Christian parents, is to tell small children the Bible account of Samson, depicting him as a great and heroic man of God, who fights for righteousness and justice. In this horrific story of bad morality, Samson makes a wager to the Philistines with a riddle, when the Philistines beat him at his game and answer the riddle correctly, Samson goes out and brutally kills 30 innocent men who had nothing to do with the wager, and steals their belongings to pay the debt. As the story goes on, in a deplorable act of animal abuse, he catches 300 foxes, ties their tails together two by two, and sets them on fire to burn the crops of the Philistines. The murderous rage of Samson is still not appeased, Samson finds the jaw bone of an ass, and murders 1,000 Philistine men. When Samson is finally subdued by the Philistine people, his rage is still not quenched, and in a final prayer to God, Samson begs God to give him strength to complete his vengeance against this people, and in a savage act of murderous brutality crushes thousands of people under a roof. This homicidal immoral story is told to young children by their Christian parents and ministers who believe they are imparting good ethical standards for their children to live by, but instead are filling children's minds with ideas that its ok to murder thousands of people if they are not God's chosen people, and that murder is justified over so small an infraction as losing a gambling bet.
Therefore, before you say that Atheists tend to have no morals, it's best to look at your own.
Just a few requests to keep this thread clean...
Keep to the topic.
Do not flame other's opinions' or beliefs' to justify your own.
When quoting, just quote the sentence or paragraph. Dont quote someone else's quotes on top.
Thanx.
- Malkavian
"When you find yourself falling into madness... Dive." - Malkavian Proverb
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive"
In response to Dekron, I don't need to be a good example for you. I am in fact Catholic and my sister is agnostic as well. I think that if you know what christianity is about I'm not gonna bust my ass to preach to you something you already know. If you really cared about following a certain religion, you need to do research and not listen to "people like me". I'm no televangelist (most christians aren't) and I guess it shows. I follow the basics of the Bible to give life meaning and purpose, so naturally I don't gasp and cover my eyes whenever someone says something like...well, "chicks dig my ride". If your satisfied with just living life in the middle then go ahead. I'm not gonna try and stop you. One of the goals of christians is, in fact, to bring others to christianity. It's just not my strong suit. Please don't judge christians on my behalf if I seem like a moral example. One thing that has sadly become the idea of most non-believers is that christians are out to screw everyone else and blindly waste their life. I don't know how to put it..like I said, I'm no evangelist...yet all of a sudden I represent a stereo-type bible pusher. Christians are supposed to live their life based on the ten commandments and teachings of Jesus Christ. That is the basic premise and thats what I follow. It goes alot deeper...but you probably don't care. If i'm genuinely happy with life then i'm not wasting it. And if your genuinely happy with life then I guess your not wasting it.
And I know what an athiest is about. You have decided to think for yourself and don't want the burden of following a strict lifestyle. Or maybe I don't understand, whatever. The whole "athiests tend to have no morals" thing was simply a joke, and since you couldn't see that I suppose my humor is as dry as my friends tell me it is. I apologize if I offended anyone like I apparently offended Dekron. And I don't base my life on Sampson. And humans are not perfect. If you had really paid attention you would have seen that. You would also see that Sampson did not fulfill his purpose intended by God. Thats why his eyes were gouged out. And God didn't kill him either. He killed himself.
And chicks DO dig my ride.
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Chicks dig my ride.
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"Christians lack basic comprehension and are impossible to reach with reason and logic"
We are people, with our own beliefs and disbeliefs, just like anybody else. I'm aware that with the title of "Christian" hanging above my head there comes a thought to everyone's mind, but you're generalizing just as the post from ChronicRick-"Athiests tend to have no morals." Your statement seems no different.
"They are completely unaware they are admitting without the fear of God, they too would act out immoral behavior"
A true Christian does what is right because he/she loves God, not because they are afraid of his "divine wrath".
"Atheists are moral because when they look into a mirror they see someone they are proud of"
The same goes for many Christians and non-Christians.
"I don't have to list the immorality of Christianity these past two thousand years. We are all aware of it's crimes. From the Dark Ages to this present day..."
Generalization again. The "christian" priests in the ancient days set down their own rules for Christianity since many of them couldn't read the Bible, themselves, it being written in Latin. Basically, you had corrupt "divine" power and no one would argue against it (except Luther). Christianity is based on Christ's principles. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe "Christianity" means Christ-like or some such thing. Look at 1 John 4:20-21 The thing is-there may be someone who says they are a Christian, but unless they do God's will it may very well be assumed they are blowing out hot air. As an old verse comes to mind-"...faith without works is dead..." I believe it means that if you believe in Christ as your Savior yet don't do God's will then ultimately your faith in Him is going to fade.
"Samson, depicting him as a great and heroic man of God, who fights for righteousness and justice"
Samson was born to be a judge (as found in the book of Judges). He was to deliver the Israelites from the Philistines. Whoever says he was a man of God must indeed be a liar or else they see something I am overlooking. Just because he was filled with the Spirit of God does not mean he was a devoted priest of God's. In short-whoever works the will of God in the Spirit of God, is most likely a man/woman of God. Samson's lifestyle ultimately lead him to a grave fate. If he walked in the path of God then he could have delivered the Israelites from the Philistines and he probably would have still been alive to see it.
"filling children's minds with ideas that its ok to murder thousands of people if they are not God's chosen people"
"Christians" who condone this really should re-examine their spiritual life. If you were refering to Christians as "God's chosen people" then you are half right. "God's chosen people" ever since the birth of Christ is everyone. "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him." -Revelation 3:20
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
I think Adreal put it better than I did. I am a terrible christian example I admit; and this shows that I need God. Its pretty clear that humans aren't perfect and thats another reason that we follow christianity. We can never be perfect but God helps us from falling into complete immorality. I'm not saying that people without God are immoral, but you probably follow some guidelines right? You don't go out and kill people or steal from other people or cheat on your wife do you? Its because you have a set of guidelines. These may be set down by law, but they're also God's laws. They're are plenty of things you could do that are legal but could be considered "sin-ful", like being a porn star. We need God to help us avoid temptation. (Christians aren't perfect either)
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Chicks dig my ride.
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You apparantly have no idea the story of samson. Samson may of been blessed with strength, but no one ever claimed he was a completely moral man. In fact in many times in the book of judges it said he sinned. And in the end he died because of his sin, but to say Samson was a murderer would be false, considering you give stories of him killing philistines, when the philistines were known for their brutality against the jews, killing them, beating them, etc. etc.
You give the story of him killing philistines with the jawbone of an ass, why did he kill them? Because they would of killed them, they were capturing them.
Nor did he kill the foxes (which I dont see what this has to do with morality) he put some type of torch between their tails, their tails werent on fire, they were carrying a firebrand which as they would run it'd catch the ground on fire.
Lets see, the people in the temple....Oh yes....it was murder....right, first they poked out with eyes, they chained him up, made him grind flour in a prison house for a long while.
Then they took him out of the prison, put him in their temple, and tortured him for enjoyment. And then he killed them, he killed a bunch of sadistic physcho's, now if you consider that murder, you're sadly mistaken.
You give an example of that it was christianity that did immorality, that is idiotic. It was europeans, that even though they claimed that they were christians, in no way acted the way that the bible tells you to do so. Most the time the papacy wasnt even in the hands of a christian morally righteous man, but was just sold to the highest bidder for power.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
For those of you that are Christian, my post was not suppose to be a flame. I have nothing wrong with Christian teachings of love, forgiveness, and sacrifice. I won't get into the things I do have a problem, because I rather see this subject get back on topic. I just wanted to show that athiests don't need to believe that morals come from a higher authority or teachings from a bible for us to have morals.