Originally posted by osc8r Originally posted by ConverseSC
This is MORONIC.
If you want to trivialize the entire MMORPG genre, then let's do it. If you want decent PvP, go play a FPS or a frickin' combat game. Those will offer endless amounts of hardcore climax-inducing PvP action for all you "bad ass gamers". I beat the servers crashed in WoW once you entered a battleground, because Blizzard simply can't handle the amount of testosterone spewing from your eyeballs. How about this..you actually remember what a frickin' RPG is. Adventuring, killing MONSTERS, and gaining experience from it is a STAPLE OF THE ENTIRE GENRE, and has been longer than you've probably lived, so GET THE HELL OVER IT.
PvP is great fun, and there are quite a few MMORPGs coming out that focuses on this aspect of gameplay, but I'm seriously tired of hearing you people bitch simply because you did no research on a game before buying it. Yes, WoW is a PvE-based game. Anyone who had spent a SECOND researching it would have figured this out. You still choose to pay the game cost, pay the monthly fee, get to the endgame, and then declare how much you hated the game. Please, shut the hell up and learn how to make a rational decision before throwing your money at the "new game of the month". Lets see... the original MMORPGs - including MUD based games had good PVP, UO had good PVP, Tibia had good PVP, AC1 had good PVP even diablo had decent PVP! Then came the carebear games ie Everquest. All the noobs flocked to it. All the developers copied it. The MMORPG genre was ruined.
And thats where we are at. We have the MMORPG noobs on one side and the MMORPG veterans on the other.
Yes, i tried WOW, i gave it a shot. I played on the so called "PVP server" only to find the PVP system was again based on another form of grind with no risk, no reward - unless you grind honor points for 10 hours a day, joy!
A RPG is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, the title suggests nothing in regards to endless pve grinds. Have a look at UO, you could be pretty much whatever you wanted to be...farmer, fisherman, crafter, miner, pet handler ETC ETC you had choices! What choices or ROLES do you have in WOW? Exactly, you are all playing the same role.
PS WOW crashed often enough without my help, infact, i remember sitting in the queue for an hour or two just waiting to login! Nice to know i was getting my moneys worth.
Seriously guys, WAKE UP! The grass was greener. You're trying to tell me there are MUD games with better PvP than WoW? Then go play them, because you are clearly delusional. I'm honestly tired of people throwing around the word "carebear" like damned pre-schoolers. Look, it's fine that you enjoyed the PvP in those games, but WoW and Everquest are PvE-based, and if you went into the game not expecting this, then you FULLY DESERVE to be disappointed. It would have taken whole SECONDS or research to figure this out.
I have to ask you something. If you find PvP to be fun, why didn't you just do it and be happy? Why did you need rewards or risks at all? See, this is the same question I posed to raiders, although it was different because they actually GOT all the rewards and privileges in the game. Of course, they'd say that raid even if this wasn't so, which in most cases is complete bull.
Yes, I know what an RPG game is and what the letters stand for. I also know that the genre has been defined by "bashing monsters", "adventuring", and "character advancement" since it's very beginning. No, the name doesn't hint toward PvE grinding, but it is a element that has been one of the longest-running defining features in the genre, and any suggestion otherwise is WRONG. I'm not saying PvP isn't a defining feature as well, and I'm not saying it's not fun.
There are professions in WoW. Whether or not you believe they were up to old MMO standards is simply personal preference, but outright ignoring their existence is silly.
We get that you apparently don't like PvE, for whatever silly reason, and thus I urge you again to look into the PvP-based games that are being developed right now. There are already some in the market now you can try. The simply fact is, that blaming WoW for not being the type of game is was never meant to be is pointless.
You're trying to tell me there are MUD games with better PvP than WoW? Then go play them, because you are clearly delusional. I'm honestly tired of people throwing around the word "carebear" like damned pre-schoolers. Look, it's fine that you enjoyed the PvP in those games, but WoW and Everquest are PvE-based, and if you went into the game not expecting this, then you FULLY DESERVE to be disappointed. It would have taken whole SECONDS or research to figure this out.
I have to ask you something. If you find PvP to be fun, why didn't you just do it and be happy? Why did you need rewards or risks at all? See, this is the same question I posed to raiders, although it was different because they actually GOT all the rewards and privileges in the game. Of course, they'd say that raid even if this wasn't so, which in most cases is complete bull.
Yes, I know what an RPG game is and what the letters stand for. I also know that the genre has been defined by "bashing monsters", "adventuring", and "character advancement" since it's very beginning. No, the name doesn't hint toward PvE grinding, but it is a element that has been one of the longest-running defining features in the genre, and any suggestion otherwise is WRONG. I'm not saying PvP isn't a defining feature as well, and I'm not saying it's not fun.
There are professions in WoW. Whether or not you believe they were up to old MMO standards is simply personal preference, but outright ignoring their existence is silly.
We get that you apparently don't like PvE, for whatever silly reason, and thus I urge you again to look into the PvP-based games that are being developed right now. There are already some in the market now you can try. The simply fact is, that blaming WoW for not being the type of game is was never meant to be is pointless. There were MUD games with better PVP than WOW. Why? Because PVP then was based on skill, not who had the better items. There were also risk and rewards. Most often had perma-death. But as with older games they no longer have the player base they once did. If they did, trust me, id be there!
PVP with no risk or reward is pointless. There are no feelings involved. As i posted in another thread:
"Some of my fondest memories were in AC PVP where i knew i was carrying some great loot, i would be sneaking around trying to stay away from roads or public area's to avoid other players as i headed back to my mule. When my heart would start beating faster when a red dot appeared on my radar and when my hands would literally start shaking when i was attacked.
In this case the fight ensued and after a good, adrenaline filled fight i was killed. I headed back to my body hoping that he hadn't looted the items i had dropped. On retrieving my corpse i found he had looted them all, my stomach turned...
I quickly gathered some guild friends and went off to seek revenge! That bastard must die!
Over the next few hours i looked over my strategy during the fight, what i did wrong, what i could have done better - i learnt from all pvp experiences to better myself. I also had other choices in terms of securing my important items, i could have called my guildies for an escort or brought a mule to me - there were many choices and decisions!
Good times
Now the same situation in WOW (or any other no loot PVP games for that matter) -
I found a great item. I walk wherever i want without fear cause if i die, it doesn't matter! I see an enemy, he attacks me, i die, i respawn, i continue on as if nothing had happened."
See the difference? To me it's like night and day. In one game i have feelings, in the other it's just pointless. If i never have any bad days i have nothing to contrast or compare my good days...every day is 'the same'. In WOW i can kill someone (or be killed) and fighting the exact same person a minute later - what a crock.
I like PVE, but to me there is a lot better PVE to be had in offline RPG's (most with multiplayer) where there is a flowing story, a start and an end and none of the 'kill 5 goblins, collect 5 ears' type crap.
And sorry, what professions are there in WOW? I thought there was just crafting and PVE (pvp is pretty much the same grind as pve so that doesnt count)? SWG was a little better where you could level your character (you didnt even have to kill a mob if you didnt want to!) in dancing, music, excellent crafting, doctor, engineer etc etc..
I am looking forward to darkfall and similar games that are on the horizon. I guess im just passionate / upset at the current state of the MMORPG scene (so are a lot of MMORPG veterans) - as it seems the first gen versions offered a whole lot more to do (including monthly updates, new dungeons, creatures, items, clothing, player events, server events etc) and lot more player freedom (no forced alliances, restrictions, boundaries, more professions, excellent pvp etc) than what is available today...and that is sad.
Originally posted by DemonknightI If you're a girl player or just afraid of being killed and want to play an MMO that's more like a singleplayer game WoW is the game for you. If PvE is what you like without being hassled by other players (even on PvP realms) WoW is the game for you.
This game was so fun when I started playing it. The possibilities were endless. WoW probably has the most disappointing endgame of any other MMO or game for that matter considering what an epic game it could of been.
Players had an endgame in the form of PVP and city raiding, but of course that was stripped away. Battlegrounds and the honor system made pvp potentials hide in BGs and since that was the only place pvp can be found and only rewarding pvp that's where everyone was.
A game full of massive amounts of level 60 players playing the same 3 repatative battleground games. What a flop.
If you're someone who enjoys things other than pvp you can raid a few dungeons, but just getting into a raid guild is a task in itself. There's a whole lot of politics you have to go through ontop of all the drama...All guilds have it unless of course you're a guild leader..then you can crap all over everyone else and screw people out of items so your friend's get them. Raiding will consist of hours upon hours of your life being wasted away to maybe get 1 epic. Then once you get the epics......???...heh...you get to go sit in ironforge and show em off like you would show your clothes off at a church. There's nothing to WoW outside of controled pvp and instanced raiding. No life in the world. Blizzard killed city raiding and world pvp. The expansion will be interesting for about 2 months and everything and everyone will settle into the same cycle WoW is in right now.
level 1-59 this game is great. It's WoW's endgame and Blizzard's insistance on making sure all the whiners weren't getting killed and everyone played nicely that kept it from being legendary.
My 2 cents, thanks
You'll be saying that about your past and present MMORPG you get bored with playing as well. Why not just move along and leave us out of your drama.
Originally posted by D0minati0n Sometimes it feels like people are trying to hide from the fact that their money is going to waste. Wow is a moneysucker and a half, the end.
If The person is having fun, they ARE getting their moneys worth. Thats all a game is for. Once it is no longer fun for you, then it is a waste of money. I played WoW for a year before I got bored and my kids still play. I think I got my moneys worth, and Don't regret a second of it
You level 1-60. ever 10 level's to spend countless hour's getting new item's. you get to 50-59 you spend eeven more countless hour's for new item's. Your 60, You farm for rep for day's and day's and spend hour's on useless boreing quest. You spend as much time as you did leveling 1-60 farming for FRto raid in MC/BWL/Ony You find a guild and spend 40+ hour's raiding in Ony/MC/BWLfor a chance on a item. You are epiced out, You spend more time youthen you did farming for FR for NR. You pvp some and try to get rep but you seem to not be as geared out as everyone eles. You spend like in MC countless hour's for chance on loot in AQ20/40 You have better loot you try to pvp some more for rank 10+, But it seem's they are still better geared. You are ready for naxx you farm for Naxx resist and spend as much time as it toke you to clear BWL to find a way to kill the frist boss.
You try to pvp from rank 10 to 14 but you have to spend hour's and hour's to even keep your rank let alone get rank 13 or 14........
The pvp is crap and it's all rep grind and the GFX are so crappy, what is fun in WoW why do you ppl find it good?
For the complainers who think WoW is boring or possibly just too hard.
- Find some friends and party/instance. - Get Ventrillo and play some music. - google for lvling guides. - thottbot.com is your best friend - Finally go on a PvP server - Get 60 and find a good guild
If you still find the game boring, go to a different MMORPG, such as EVE (good game, but high learning curve) or Guild Wars (good pvp, but grind faction).
The game will be easy to lvl up to 30, 30+ will require 5-7 hours per level depending on your dps and if you know what you're doing. I average 16-18k an hour in my 30's atm, as a fire spec mage.
The game imo begins at 60, so much is open to you in terms of PvPing and instances. If you find the right guild and group of people to play with I don't see how you could be turned off by this game. For example, my up and coming guild on the Illidan server that I'll be joining at 60 has a great system that works to get every member their very own Tier sets.
Lastly, don't pressure yourself to lvl, pace yourself out unless you're a hardcore gamer who can lvl 2-3 times a day in your 30's and above.
I have played just about every Major MMORPG in this great world.
I liked wow. but i couldent get into it. And its not hard to figure out why.
the people who play it are buttmunches. Not saying everyone is. But a vast majority of the people are. I think the community makes or breaks a game and thats why i didnt like this one. Everyone was out for themselves. I had some simple question and asked. No one answered. So I sent a tell to a person they ingnored me. Found someone doing what I wanted to do (was trying to figure out fishing) and asked them. Told me to leave them alone or they would get there alt and kill me. in the chat channels almost nonstop complainging and cussing. While I dont mind a good swear people who use it all the time and spam a chat with it is just not fun. People have told me "well find a guild" Sure thats easy to do...."hi! i am lvl 6 and know nothing about this game can I join your guild" of course i didnt say that but you get the idea and can imagine the responses i got back. SO i tried something els. I turned off all the chat windows. ignored everyone i could and I started enjoying the game. then i got to this cave to kill these things and people 4 or 5 times my lvl would come up AFTER I engaged the target and one hit kill them takeing the quest credit and any loot from me. this Happend almost nonstop. So then I tried chat window again. got myself a killing partner for this lowbie quest. I had to kill 10 he said he only needed 6 more. so we killed and killed. he Ninja looted the 6 items he needed and left the group. I thought wow...what a buttmunch. And brushed it off. So i got in another group. SAME FREAKEN THING. we shared the loot this time but as soon as they where finished they left again.. In the middle of a combat let me die and left t he group with me still needing 2 more items. at that point I cancled my trial. (that i paid 1.99 for. that it self was kinda stupid) got back into everquest 1 and 2 and havent looked back. the game is great. but the people ruin it for me.
Zero Depth said
"For the complainers who think WoW is boring or possibly just too hard.
- Find some friends and party/instance. - Get Ventrillo and play some music. - google for lvling guides. - thottbot.com is your best friend - Finally go on a PvP server - Get 60 and find a good guild"
I shouldent have to go into all those steps to enjoy a game. I should be able to sit down at a game and enjoy it. Not to get to lvl 60 to start enjoing it. or get ventrillo. some people kicked me out of groups when i told them I didnt have a mic. Hell in D&D online with built in mic support that never happend.
Spelling and grammer sucks. I know this. I dont care. Dosent make my ideas any less valid.
This Rant is totaly IMHO not ment to diss the game that so many people love as much as there wife and kids. and I am sure would sell there wife and kid for some "phat looot"
Conservatism. Just old white men trying to find ways to legalize discrimination, and make the poor poorer
First off, starting up a topic like this is just stupid. If you don't like the game, I'm fine with it...but, I'd rather someone tell me how they feel about something when asked. You don't have to try and get attention by "speaking your mind."
Second, wait for the expansion. Dishonerable kills are gone, so town raiding can actually be fun again without the whole avoiding the level 5 vendors that come after you. This "snoozefest" raiding you so detest will be gone, more or less. There's going to be no more 40-mans implemented after the expansion comes out. Players will be able to get good gear without needing a raiding guild and being able to spend 30+ hours a week raiding to stay on par with gear. And then the way Blizzard seems to be doing the new PvP, it shouldn't be as boring as is currently is. As well as far more accessable to people who don't want to/can't grind to rank 14 and be "uber."
Third, I have no idea where you got all this "guild drama" stuff from. You must have been in some terrible guilds. I've made my way through two very good raiding guilds, and not once did I experience anyone getting screwed out of anything because the guild master's friend needed it, or anything else of the sort. Maybe you were just in guilds with faulty DKP systems or something, but I rarely hear of this happening.
As for your view on Blizzard "making sure all the whiners weren't getting killed and everyone played nicely", I'd like to see where this information came from. I've played on numerous PvP servers, from old to newer, and there were plenty of times that "gank squads" would come by, stop, kill me, camp me, move on.
You're entitled to your own opinion, and I respect that. All I'm doing is expressing mine. And before you say anything, I've been playing MMOs since UO first came out. In no way, shape, or form am I am "carebear," "whiner," "mmo noob" or anything else of the sort.
My 2 cents.
--------------------------------------------------------------- WoW: Lamere, 70 Paladin on Jaedenar (retired)
WoW is also for people that would like to play a game that is easy to play with their friends in an electronic universe without having to sacrifice their already well developed social structure with playing constantly. (Raiding is an option, not a neccessity)
I had like 7 chars, top level was 55, most were 30+ and I never felt any grind or high-end boredom. Since there are millions of people like me, im guessing WoW was created for clients like me. If you get to 60 in 2 weeks, well, you wont have much fun of course. The great thin WoW has is big replayability, each class "feels" different, so leveling it is completely different experience. So yes, WoW has a lot less content at high-end, but it wasnt designed to be a high-end game like EQ1 or Lineage2. It was primarily designed for people like me, who play 5-10 hours a week, who may or may not reach 60 in 1 year (becuase we like playing different classes). Judging from their subscribtion numbers, im guessing blizzard did the right thing - reward millions of casual players rather then rewarding thousands of hardcore ones.
Once you got to 60 with all classes, or once you get bored leveling through same zones over and over, then i suggest to get a different game. GW has some realy nice PvP oriented play, or L2 has a lot of grind to get to top level so you will have your hands full for the next year or two trying to grind to top.
Originally posted by The-Raven Went to report this thread as simply a troll post but it appears that it has already been reported. Good. We do not need posts like this and the sooner they are removed the better. Guess you had a rough night in BG eh DemonKnightI?
A rough night in BGs? You mean having to wait 30 seconds on rez timer? lol. Ya really hurt me bad. I canceled this game long ago because of crap like BGs and their horrendous PvP system. Carebears like yourself I'm sure are loving it. No penalty for being crushed, no equipment loss, and you can ride the coattails of your lil raid guild to victories that mean absolutely nothing for you or your character.
Originally posted by Bakgrind Originally posted by DemonknightI If you're a girl player or just afraid of being killed and want to play an MMO that's more like a singleplayer game WoW is the game for you. If PvE is what you like without being hassled by other players (even on PvP realms) WoW is the game for you.
This game was so fun when I started playing it. The possibilities were endless. WoW probably has the most disappointing endgame of any other MMO or game for that matter considering what an epic game it could of been.
Players had an endgame in the form of PVP and city raiding, but of course that was stripped away. Battlegrounds and the honor system made pvp potentials hide in BGs and since that was the only place pvp can be found and only rewarding pvp that's where everyone was.
A game full of massive amounts of level 60 players playing the same 3 repatative battleground games. What a flop.
If you're someone who enjoys things other than pvp you can raid a few dungeons, but just getting into a raid guild is a task in itself. There's a whole lot of politics you have to go through ontop of all the drama...All guilds have it unless of course you're a guild leader..then you can crap all over everyone else and screw people out of items so your friend's get them. Raiding will consist of hours upon hours of your life being wasted away to maybe get 1 epic. Then once you get the epics......???...heh...you get to go sit in ironforge and show em off like you would show your clothes off at a church. There's nothing to WoW outside of controled pvp and instanced raiding. No life in the world. Blizzard killed city raiding and world pvp. The expansion will be interesting for about 2 months and everything and everyone will settle into the same cycle WoW is in right now.
level 1-59 this game is great. It's WoW's endgame and Blizzard's insistance on making sure all the whiners weren't getting killed and everyone played nicely that kept it from being legendary.
My 2 cents, thanks
You'll be saying that about your past and present MMORPG you get bored with playing as well. Why not just move along and leave us out of your drama. Ultima Online pre-trammel was nothing like I described and I never badmouthed that game. Why? It simply had everything you could want in a game. Hell, Diablo 2 had better pvp than this game had. In that game you could actually lose loot you had alongside UO.
I just don't get why people think WoW pvp system is fine. This game risks nothing while you play so there's also nothing to gain in it. Understand? You can suicide a hundred times at someone and it won't matter. No towns to capture, no wars going on, and a world that will be the exact same 3 years from now besides a few more instances and maybe an expansion here/there.
Maybe someone could explain this to me....To me WoW is nothing more beyond equipment collection and dueling. BGs are really no different from duels since there's no gains or losses. In other games like UO, when you killed someone you looted their bodies and they lost something. Therefore the thrill was there.
If you enjoy PvE in this game, great! I feel that this game has been taken over by carebears and why PvP servers really don't exist in any way, shape, or form. This game is raid farming, stand around in IF, instanced PvP.
I've always thought WoW was a fun game to play, but overall I felt if I'm going to invest the amount of time an MMO requires I want to play a game that has reason to it. I want to raid towns and disrupt the world. In WoW there's no interaction with the world whatsoever. That's where it failed regardless of how many millions of subscribers it gets. Many of you will come to the same conclusion I have about the game.
every1 is entitled to their own opinions and crirtiques and it is usually good critiqing tht makes a game or in fact anything else even better.
Secondly....ive had a rather comprehended knowledge of MMORPGS.
and like the 10 commandments MMORPGS have 1, and that is grinding, so if ur not a fan of grinding, then go talk to a psychiatrist about ur problems.
Thirdly i agree with u that wow has flaws, like all MMORPGS, but for me, i would rate it #1 if it would loose the p2p option, thts prolly its only drawback.....bsides tht i have nothing to complain about, because i think blizzard has milked us enough of our cash and id appreciate if they just made it something like a 1 time payment mayb like GW.
Fourthly, this is a forum on WOW, and if ur talking about comparing games, it ultimately (the irony) comes down on different ppls tastes, herez a statistic: ultima online 7000ppl, wow 7million ppl. so if ur tastes are at ultima online then keep urself and ur damn opinions in tht thread, not in here!
and those are my 2cents, 0.0005punds, 0.001euro, 0.000001yen
Originally posted by wrathex Firstly....i believe in democracy. every1 is entitled to their own opinions and crirtiques and it is usually good critiqing tht makes a game or in fact anything else even better. Secondly....ive had a rather comprehended knowledge of MMORPGS. and like the 10 commandments MMORPGS have 1, and that is grinding, so if ur not a fan of grinding, then go talk to a psychiatrist about ur problems. Thirdly i agree with u that wow has flaws, like all MMORPGS, but for me, i would rate it #1 if it would loose the p2p option, thts prolly its only drawback.....bsides tht i have nothing to complain about, because i think blizzard has milked us enough of our cash and id appreciate if they just made it something like a 1 time payment mayb like GW. Fourthly, this is a forum on WOW, and if ur talking about comparing games, it ultimately (the irony) comes down on different ppls tastes, herez a statistic: ultima online 7000ppl, wow 7million ppl. so if ur tastes are at ultima online then keep urself and ur damn opinions in tht thread, not in here! and those are my 2cents, 0.0005punds, 0.001euro, 0.000001yen
/seconded pretty much everything except those 2 parts marked in yellow. In the past, pretty much all MMORPGs had the grind part, but as WoW proved it to the world, grind is not a necessary evil in an MMORPG> WoW reduced grind a lot, and hid it beyond different activities so well that grind doesnt feel like grind at all. I mean, you CAN grind, but you can also quest, PvP, craft, harvest, explore or just go and annoy lower level enemy players. Its still there, but it doesnt feel like its there.
About opinions, I think you are wrong on that one too. If someone has an opinion on a game, whether good opinion or bad, should be able to post his or hers opinion. Democracy means that pretty much anyone can post about anything, as long as posts are meaningfull, intelligent and respectfull.
/seconded pretty much everything except those 2 parts marked in yellow. In the past, pretty much all MMORPGs had the grind part, but as WoW proved it to the world, grind is not a necessary evil in an MMORPG> WoW reduced grind a lot, and hid it beyond different activities so well that grind doesnt feel like grind at all.
lol, you are delusional or the biggest wow fanboy on here!
I mean, you CAN grind, but you can also quest, PvP, craft, harvest, explore or just go and annoy lower level enemy players. Its still there, but it doesnt feel like its there.
You can grind? What the hell do you mean, WOW is one BIG grind. The PVE, the raids, the PVP, the LIMITED crafting and harvesting, get real. UO had like 50 professions - SWG had heaps as well, and you didnt even have to kill 1 MOB to level up if you didnt want. AC you could get in a good guild, get some good vassals and there you go... levelling up without grinding.
And go and annoy lower level enemy players? Is that the best you've got? Wow, what fun that must be. In REAL games you could actually participate in PVP that had a point, where the was REAL conflict with REAL risks and REWARDS. Where fighting other people actually meant something.
You can explore in any MMORPG and let me tell you there is much better to be had elsewhere, where there are no crappy zones or obstacles restricting your movement, no linear paths to follow - where you could actually go out and discover new lands, dungeons, ruins etc...
Sounds like most of you in this thread defending wow have never played any other MMORPG's, this just proves that wow is indeed made for "Newbs and carebears".
/seconded pretty much everything except those 2 parts marked in yellow. In the past, pretty much all MMORPGs had the grind part, but as WoW proved it to the world, grind is not a necessary evil in an MMORPG> WoW reduced grind a lot, and hid it beyond different activities so well that grind doesnt feel like grind at all.
lol, you are delusional or the biggest wow fanboy on here!
Either u r delusional or you are the biggest wow hateboy (just returning your comment)
I mean, you CAN grind, but you can also quest, PvP, craft, harvest, explore or just go and annoy lower level enemy players. Its still there, but it doesnt feel like its there.
You can grind? What the hell do you mean, WOW is one BIG grind. The PVE, the raids, the PVP, the LIMITED crafting and harvesting, get real. UO had like 50 professions - SWG had heaps as well, and you didnt even have to kill 1 MOB to level up if you didnt want. AC you could get in a good guild, get some good vassals and there you go... levelling up without grinding.
And go and annoy lower level enemy players? Is that the best you've got? Wow, what fun that must be. In REAL games you could actually participate in PVP that had a point, where the was REAL conflict with REAL risks and REWARDS. Where fighting other people actually meant something.
You can explore in any MMORPG and let me tell you there is much better to be had elsewhere, where there are no crappy zones or obstacles restricting your movement, no linear paths to follow - where you could actually go out and discover new lands, dungeons, ruins etc...
Sounds like most of you in this thread defending wow have never played any other MMORPG's, this just proves that wow is indeed made for "Newbs and carebears".
How is it one bg grind? Ill give u an example how it ISNT one big grind. I start at level 1, I get to kill some wolves for quest.. and kobolds for another... I killed about 10 wolves for quest, 10 more for fun and exp, killed 20 kobolds for quest, 50 more for fun and exp (just love their U NO TAKE CANDLE remark)... boom, im level 3 in the process already... lets move on, another quest, one is delivery, one to kill some bandits, another to heal a wounded paladin... Ok, delivery is fast, 10 bandits are a bit slower becuase they are tough and grouped together. Wounded paladin is cake. Im level 4 now. Next quest, gotta find remains of some paladins... gotta loot 10 somethings from murlocs. Killed about 40-50 of them before got all the items, had fun becuase they go RAWRRRLRLRLRLR and they look funny hehe. Gotta protect the forst and gather 10 wood pieces and kill 10 wolves and 10 bears. Done and done, level 6.... next zone.
Of course all that is done with good storyline and often funny quests (beer quest in starting gnome/dwarf zone is a blast!). Now, how is this grind? I mean what do you expect, a unique mob every step?
oh and yeah, PvP, you know, i kinda like NOT to lose all my stuff I gathered for the last 3 months like I did in UO. Yeah one stupid lag spike, i got killed, some noob looted all my uber loot, thats that. 3 months are gone becuase servers couldnt handle the traffic. WoW PvP is simple yet effectively fun, you jump in, you kill, you fight to survive. YEah you dont lose anything if you die, so what? I fight not to gain UBER POOPER CAMPER PKER status, but to test my skills vs other peeps. Not everyone wants to loot all gear from your fallen enemy, becuase If i was that fallen enemy, id be pissed.
UO had better crafting? HA. The moment i made some armor in UO, I was another one of... hundreds others who could do just the same. In WoW, i was THE most wanted among many for a long time ecuase i was one of the first people (or so it seemed) on my server to figure out how to get rich quickly by selliing monocles to chanters (my guild was praising me for doing it free of charge for them, at times, i was doing 30-40 monocles a day). Yeah, i felt important those days, i felt like i was at least a tiny bit "unique", not just one of many who can make grey looking armor after spending hours of mindlessly mining for ore and having mini-fights with other miners who wanted to mine in the area.
HAHA the last paragraph is just amazingly ignorant... I played pretty much every single major MMORPG, except AC, SB, DDO and... uhm thats it.
Yeah so im delusional or wow fanboi? I dunno, im one of the million, you are one of the few others.
WoW is fun til 60, and then you realize you will either: A Run the same instances over again and get crappy blue gear! B Run the same instances over again and get purple gear C Run the same instances over again and spend dozens of hours doing so D Run the same battlegrounds over again realizing you can't get to the top, because some kid who has no parents and doesn't work play 24/7
level 1-59 this game is great. It's WoW's endgame and Blizzard's insistance on making sure all the whiners weren't getting killed and everyone played nicely that kept it from being legendary.
My 2 cents, thanks
So 1-59 it's NOT for carebears and noobs but once you hit 60 then anyone who enjoys it is a carebear or a noob.
It never ceases to amaze me the type of people who you find in these online worlds.
Here's an idea. Everyone go sit in the corner or your game of choice and don't come down until dinner is ready.
Sheesh!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by mehhem WoW is fun til 60, and then you realize you will either: A Run the same instances over again and get crappy blue gear! B Run the same instances over again and get purple gear C Run the same instances over again and spend dozens of hours doing so D Run the same battlegrounds over again realizing you can't get to the top, because some kid who has no parents and doesn't work play 24/7
Bullz eye. If only people could understand that people are different, and that some games were made for specific type of people. WoW was made for casuals, the ones that dont level to 60 in 3 weeks or even a month (which means the majority of the world gamer population). I played wow for 2 years (on and off), and never reached 60 (im tired of saying that over and over ). I have 7 chars in total, and never hit any big raids or big grinds. People like me enjoy(ed) WoW. And there seem to be a lot of us, which is good becuase if most peeps in the world would of been hardcore gamers then humanity in general would degrade into hairy apes and then aliens would colonize our planet.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Originally posted by mehhem WoW is fun til 60, and then you realize you will either: A Run the same instances over again and get crappy blue gear! B Run the same instances over again and get purple gear C Run the same instances over again and spend dozens of hours doing so D Run the same battlegrounds over again realizing you can't get to the top, because some kid who has no parents and doesn't work play 24/7
Bullz eye. If only people could understand that people are different, and that some games were made for specific type of people. WoW was made for casuals, the ones that dont level to 60 in 3 weeks or even a month (which means the majority of the world gamer population). I played wow for 2 years (on and off), and never reached 60 (im tired of saying that over and over ). I have 7 chars in total, and never hit any big raids or big grinds. People like me enjoy(ed) WoW. And there seem to be a lot of us, which is good becuase if most peeps in the world would of been hardcore gamers then humanity in general would degrade into hairy apes and then aliens would colonize our planet. Actually, I have had a character in WoW since release and he is a mighty lvl 27. I only have time to devote to "so many" games. Screwed around with a few characters to lvl 10 but then settled on one. For the brief time I enter the game I enjoy myself. If the game wasn't so cartoony I might be a more regular player but it is what it is and that is fine.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Originally posted by mehhem WoW is fun til 60, and then you realize you will either: A Run the same instances over again and get crappy blue gear! B Run the same instances over again and get purple gear C Run the same instances over again and spend dozens of hours doing so D Run the same battlegrounds over again realizing you can't get to the top, because some kid who has no parents and doesn't work play 24/7
Bullz eye. If only people could understand that people are different, and that some games were made for specific type of people. WoW was made for casuals, the ones that dont level to 60 in 3 weeks or even a month (which means the majority of the world gamer population). I played wow for 2 years (on and off), and never reached 60 (im tired of saying that over and over ). I have 7 chars in total, and never hit any big raids or big grinds. People like me enjoy(ed) WoW. And there seem to be a lot of us, which is good becuase if most peeps in the world would of been hardcore gamers then humanity in general would degrade into hairy apes and then aliens would colonize our planet.
Well, in Pvp servers, you can always do world pvp and raids. Plus, you DON'T really have to run instances or pvp for decent armor. They have quest at lvl 60 you can do for armor, and you have can gain rep and get rewards for new things.
But if you can think of anything else you can put for endgame, please say.
Comments
If you want to trivialize the entire MMORPG genre, then let's do it. If you want decent PvP, go play a FPS or a frickin' combat game. Those will offer endless amounts of hardcore climax-inducing PvP action for all you "bad ass gamers". I beat the servers crashed in WoW once you entered a battleground, because Blizzard simply can't handle the amount of testosterone spewing from your eyeballs. How about this..you actually remember what a frickin' RPG is. Adventuring, killing MONSTERS, and gaining experience from it is a STAPLE OF THE ENTIRE GENRE, and has been longer than you've probably lived, so GET THE HELL OVER IT.
PvP is great fun, and there are quite a few MMORPGs coming out that focuses on this aspect of gameplay, but I'm seriously tired of hearing you people bitch simply because you did no research on a game before buying it. Yes, WoW is a PvE-based game. Anyone who had spent a SECOND researching it would have figured this out. You still choose to pay the game cost, pay the monthly fee, get to the endgame, and then declare how much you hated the game. Please, shut the hell up and learn how to make a rational decision before throwing your money at the "new game of the month".
Lets see... the original MMORPGs - including MUD based games had good PVP, UO had good PVP, Tibia had good PVP, AC1 had good PVP even diablo had decent PVP! Then came the carebear games ie Everquest. All the noobs flocked to it. All the developers copied it. The MMORPG genre was ruined.
And thats where we are at. We have the MMORPG noobs on one side and the MMORPG veterans on the other.
Yes, i tried WOW, i gave it a shot. I played on the so called "PVP server" only to find the PVP system was again based on another form of grind with no risk, no reward - unless you grind honor points for 10 hours a day, joy!
A RPG is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, the title suggests nothing in regards to endless pve grinds. Have a look at UO, you could be pretty much whatever you wanted to be...farmer, fisherman, crafter, miner, pet handler ETC ETC you had choices! What choices or ROLES do you have in WOW? Exactly, you are all playing the same role.
PS WOW crashed often enough without my help, infact, i remember sitting in the queue for an hour or two just waiting to login! Nice to know i was getting my moneys worth.
Seriously guys, WAKE UP! The grass was greener.
You're trying to tell me there are MUD games with better PvP than WoW? Then go play them, because you are clearly delusional. I'm honestly tired of people throwing around the word "carebear" like damned pre-schoolers. Look, it's fine that you enjoyed the PvP in those games, but WoW and Everquest are PvE-based, and if you went into the game not expecting this, then you FULLY DESERVE to be disappointed. It would have taken whole SECONDS or research to figure this out.
I have to ask you something. If you find PvP to be fun, why didn't you just do it and be happy? Why did you need rewards or risks at all? See, this is the same question I posed to raiders, although it was different because they actually GOT all the rewards and privileges in the game. Of course, they'd say that raid even if this wasn't so, which in most cases is complete bull.
Yes, I know what an RPG game is and what the letters stand for. I also know that the genre has been defined by "bashing monsters", "adventuring", and "character advancement" since it's very beginning. No, the name doesn't hint toward PvE grinding, but it is a element that has been one of the longest-running defining features in the genre, and any suggestion otherwise is WRONG. I'm not saying PvP isn't a defining feature as well, and I'm not saying it's not fun.
There are professions in WoW. Whether or not you believe they were up to old MMO standards is simply personal preference, but outright ignoring their existence is silly.
We get that you apparently don't like PvE, for whatever silly reason, and thus I urge you again to look into the PvP-based games that are being developed right now. There are already some in the market now you can try. The simply fact is, that blaming WoW for not being the type of game is was never meant to be is pointless.
I have to ask you something. If you find PvP to be fun, why didn't you just do it and be happy? Why did you need rewards or risks at all? See, this is the same question I posed to raiders, although it was different because they actually GOT all the rewards and privileges in the game. Of course, they'd say that raid even if this wasn't so, which in most cases is complete bull.
Yes, I know what an RPG game is and what the letters stand for. I also know that the genre has been defined by "bashing monsters", "adventuring", and "character advancement" since it's very beginning. No, the name doesn't hint toward PvE grinding, but it is a element that has been one of the longest-running defining features in the genre, and any suggestion otherwise is WRONG. I'm not saying PvP isn't a defining feature as well, and I'm not saying it's not fun.
There are professions in WoW. Whether or not you believe they were up to old MMO standards is simply personal preference, but outright ignoring their existence is silly.
We get that you apparently don't like PvE, for whatever silly reason, and thus I urge you again to look into the PvP-based games that are being developed right now. There are already some in the market now you can try. The simply fact is, that blaming WoW for not being the type of game is was never meant to be is pointless.
There were MUD games with better PVP than WOW. Why? Because PVP then was based on skill, not who had the better items. There were also risk and rewards. Most often had perma-death. But as with older games they no longer have the player base they once did. If they did, trust me, id be there!
PVP with no risk or reward is pointless. There are no feelings involved. As i posted in another thread:
"Some of my fondest memories were in AC PVP where i knew i was carrying some great loot, i would be sneaking around trying to stay away from roads or public area's to avoid other players as i headed back to my mule. When my heart would start beating faster when a red dot appeared on my radar and when my hands would literally start shaking when i was attacked.
In this case the fight ensued and after a good, adrenaline filled fight i was killed. I headed back to my body hoping that he hadn't looted the items i had dropped. On retrieving my corpse i found he had looted them all, my stomach turned...
I quickly gathered some guild friends and went off to seek revenge! That bastard must die!
Over the next few hours i looked over my strategy during the fight, what i did wrong, what i could have done better - i learnt from all pvp experiences to better myself. I also had other choices in terms of securing my important items, i could have called my guildies for an escort or brought a mule to me - there were many choices and decisions!
Good times
Now the same situation in WOW (or any other no loot PVP games for that matter) -
I found a great item. I walk wherever i want without fear cause if i die, it doesn't matter! I see an enemy, he attacks me, i die, i respawn, i continue on as if nothing had happened."
See the difference? To me it's like night and day. In one game i have feelings, in the other it's just pointless. If i never have any bad days i have nothing to contrast or compare my good days...every day is 'the same'. In WOW i can kill someone (or be killed) and fighting the exact same person a minute later - what a crock.
I like PVE, but to me there is a lot better PVE to be had in offline RPG's (most with multiplayer) where there is a flowing story, a start and an end and none of the 'kill 5 goblins, collect 5 ears' type crap.
And sorry, what professions are there in WOW? I thought there was just crafting and PVE (pvp is pretty much the same grind as pve so that doesnt count)? SWG was a little better where you could level your character (you didnt even have to kill a mob if you didnt want to!) in dancing, music, excellent crafting, doctor, engineer etc etc..
I am looking forward to darkfall and similar games that are on the horizon. I guess im just passionate / upset at the current state of the MMORPG scene (so are a lot of MMORPG veterans) - as it seems the first gen versions offered a whole lot more to do (including monthly updates, new dungeons, creatures, items, clothing, player events, server events etc) and lot more player freedom (no forced alliances, restrictions, boundaries, more professions, excellent pvp etc) than what is available today...and that is sad.
Why did you?
- Find some friends and party/instance.
- Get Ventrillo and play some music.
- google for lvling guides.
- thottbot.com is your best friend
- Finally go on a PvP server
- Get 60 and find a good guild
If you still find the game boring, go to a different MMORPG, such as EVE (good game, but high learning curve) or Guild Wars (good pvp, but grind faction).
The game will be easy to lvl up to 30, 30+ will require 5-7 hours per level depending on your dps and if you know what you're doing. I average 16-18k an hour in my 30's atm, as a fire spec mage.
The game imo begins at 60, so much is open to you in terms of PvPing and instances. If you find the right guild and group of people to play with I don't see how you could be turned off by this game. For example, my up and coming guild on the Illidan server that I'll be joining at 60 has a great system that works to get every member their very own Tier sets.
Lastly, don't pressure yourself to lvl, pace yourself out unless you're a hardcore gamer who can lvl 2-3 times a day in your 30's and above.
I have played just about every Major MMORPG in this great world.
I liked wow. but i couldent get into it. And its not hard to figure out why.
the people who play it are buttmunches. Not saying everyone is. But a vast majority of the people are. I think the community makes or breaks a game and thats why i didnt like this one. Everyone was out for themselves. I had some simple question and asked. No one answered. So I sent a tell to a person they ingnored me. Found someone doing what I wanted to do (was trying to figure out fishing) and asked them. Told me to leave them alone or they would get there alt and kill me. in the chat channels almost nonstop complainging and cussing. While I dont mind a good swear people who use it all the time and spam a chat with it is just not fun. People have told me "well find a guild" Sure thats easy to do...."hi! i am lvl 6 and know nothing about this game can I join your guild" of course i didnt say that but you get the idea and can imagine the responses i got back. SO i tried something els. I turned off all the chat windows. ignored everyone i could and I started enjoying the game. then i got to this cave to kill these things and people 4 or 5 times my lvl would come up AFTER I engaged the target and one hit kill them takeing the quest credit and any loot from me. this Happend almost nonstop. So then I tried chat window again. got myself a killing partner for this lowbie quest. I had to kill 10 he said he only needed 6 more. so we killed and killed. he Ninja looted the 6 items he needed and left the group. I thought wow...what a buttmunch. And brushed it off. So i got in another group. SAME FREAKEN THING. we shared the loot this time but as soon as they where finished they left again.. In the middle of a combat let me die and left t he group with me still needing 2 more items. at that point I cancled my trial. (that i paid 1.99 for. that it self was kinda stupid) got back into everquest 1 and 2 and havent looked back. the game is great. but the people ruin it for me.
Zero Depth said
"For the complainers who think WoW is boring or possibly just too hard.
- Find some friends and party/instance.
- Get Ventrillo and play some music.
- google for lvling guides.
- thottbot.com is your best friend
- Finally go on a PvP server
- Get 60 and find a good guild"
I shouldent have to go into all those steps to enjoy a game. I should be able to sit down at a game and enjoy it. Not to get to lvl 60 to start enjoing it. or get ventrillo. some people kicked me out of groups when i told them I didnt have a mic. Hell in D&D online with built in mic support that never happend.
ok done.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Disclaimer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Spelling and grammer sucks. I know this. I dont care. Dosent make my ideas any less valid.
This Rant is totaly IMHO not ment to diss the game that so many people love as much as there wife and kids. and I am sure would sell there wife and kid for some "phat looot"
Conservatism.
Just old white men trying to find ways to legalize discrimination, and make the poor poorer
a few words.
1. CHILL
2. roleplaying
3. raiding is fun.
like the game, I'm fine with it...but, I'd rather someone tell me how
they feel about something when asked. You don't have to try and get
attention by "speaking your mind."
Second, wait for the expansion. Dishonerable kills are gone, so town
raiding can actually be fun again without the whole avoiding the level
5 vendors that come after you. This "snoozefest" raiding you so detest
will be gone, more or less. There's going to be no more 40-mans
implemented after the expansion comes out. Players will be able to get
good gear without needing a raiding guild and being able to spend 30+
hours a week raiding to stay on par with gear. And then the way
Blizzard seems to be doing the new PvP, it shouldn't be as boring as is
currently is. As well as far more accessable to people who don't want
to/can't grind to rank 14 and be "uber."
Third, I have no idea where you got all this "guild drama" stuff from.
You must have been in some terrible guilds. I've made my way through
two very good raiding guilds, and not once did I experience anyone
getting screwed out of anything because the guild master's friend
needed it, or anything else of the sort. Maybe you were just in guilds
with faulty DKP systems or something, but I rarely hear of this
happening.
As for your view on Blizzard "making sure all the whiners weren't
getting killed and everyone played nicely", I'd like to see where this
information came from. I've played on numerous PvP servers, from old to
newer, and there were plenty of times that "gank squads" would come by, stop, kill me, camp me, move on.
You're entitled to your own opinion, and I respect that. All I'm doing
is expressing mine. And before you say anything, I've been playing MMOs
since UO first came out. In no way, shape, or form am I am "carebear,"
"whiner," "mmo noob" or anything else of the sort.
My 2 cents.
---------------------------------------------------------------
WoW: Lamere, 70 Paladin on Jaedenar (retired)
DAoC: Cadore Ironmace, 50 Cleric (retired)
SWG: Dolthin Erid, Master CH/Master Pistoleer (NGE'd)
Waiting for: Warhammer Online/Age of Conan
WoW is also for people that would like to play a game that is easy to play with their friends in an electronic universe without having to sacrifice their already well developed social structure with playing constantly. (Raiding is an option, not a neccessity)
any grind or high-end boredom. Since there are millions of people like
me, im guessing WoW was created for clients like me. If you get to 60
in 2 weeks, well, you wont have much fun of course. The great thin WoW
has is big replayability, each class "feels" different, so leveling it
is completely different experience. So yes, WoW has a lot less
content at high-end, but it wasnt designed to be a high-end game like
EQ1 or Lineage2. It was primarily designed for people like me, who play
5-10 hours a week, who may or may not reach 60 in 1 year (becuase we
like playing different classes). Judging from their subscribtion
numbers, im guessing blizzard did the right thing - reward millions of
casual players rather then rewarding thousands of hardcore ones.
Once you got to 60 with all classes, or once you get bored leveling
through same zones over and over, then i suggest to get a different
game. GW has some realy nice PvP oriented play, or L2 has a lot of
grind to get to top level so you will have your hands full for
the next year or two trying to grind to top.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
thanks
Ultima Online pre-trammel was nothing like I described and I never badmouthed that game. Why? It simply had everything you could want in a game. Hell, Diablo 2 had better pvp than this game had. In that game you could actually lose loot you had alongside UO.
I just don't get why people think WoW pvp system is fine. This game risks nothing while you play so there's also nothing to gain in it. Understand? You can suicide a hundred times at someone and it won't matter. No towns to capture, no wars going on, and a world that will be the exact same 3 years from now besides a few more instances and maybe an expansion here/there.
Maybe someone could explain this to me....To me WoW is nothing more beyond equipment collection and dueling. BGs are really no different from duels since there's no gains or losses. In other games like UO, when you killed someone you looted their bodies and they lost something. Therefore the thrill was there.
If you enjoy PvE in this game, great! I feel that this game has been taken over by carebears and why PvP servers really don't exist in any way, shape, or form. This game is raid farming, stand around in IF, instanced PvP.
I've always thought WoW was a fun game to play, but overall I felt if I'm going to invest the amount of time an MMO requires I want to play a game that has reason to it. I want to raid towns and disrupt the world. In WoW there's no interaction with the world whatsoever. That's where it failed regardless of how many millions of subscribers it gets. Many of you will come to the same conclusion I have about the game.
Firstly....i believe in democracy.
every1 is entitled to their own opinions and crirtiques and it is usually good critiqing tht makes a game or in fact anything else even better.
Secondly....ive had a rather comprehended knowledge of MMORPGS.
and like the 10 commandments MMORPGS have 1, and that is grinding, so if ur not a fan of grinding, then go talk to a psychiatrist about ur problems.
Thirdly i agree with u that wow has flaws, like all MMORPGS, but for me, i would rate it #1 if it would loose the p2p option, thts prolly its only drawback.....bsides tht i have nothing to complain about, because i think blizzard has milked us enough of our cash and id appreciate if they just made it something like a 1 time payment mayb like GW.
Fourthly, this is a forum on WOW, and if ur talking about comparing games, it ultimately (the irony) comes down on different ppls tastes, herez a statistic: ultima online 7000ppl, wow 7million ppl. so if ur tastes are at ultima online then keep urself and ur damn opinions in tht thread, not in here!
and those are my 2cents, 0.0005punds, 0.001euro, 0.000001yen
About opinions, I think you are wrong on that one too. If someone has an opinion on a game, whether good opinion or bad, should be able to post his or hers opinion. Democracy means that pretty much anyone can post about anything, as long as posts are meaningfull, intelligent and respectfull.
And, are you saying yen is > cents?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
A Run the same instances over again and get crappy blue gear!
B Run the same instances over again and get purple gear
C Run the same instances over again and spend dozens of hours doing so
D Run the same battlegrounds over again realizing you can't get to the top, because some kid who has no parents and doesn't work play 24/7
It never ceases to amaze me the type of people who you find in these online worlds.
Here's an idea. Everyone go sit in the corner or your game of choice and don't come down until dinner is ready.
Sheesh!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't like WoW because PvP is dependant on gear not skill and there is a serious lack of character customization.
Other then that it is a pretty good game.
EDIT; Oh, and I liked the endgame because I had a great guild.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Actually, I have had a character in WoW since release and he is a mighty lvl 27. I only have time to devote to "so many" games. Screwed around with a few characters to lvl 10 but then settled on one. For the brief time I enter the game I enjoy myself. If the game wasn't so cartoony I might be a more regular player but it is what it is and that is fine.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well, in Pvp servers, you can always do world pvp and raids.
Plus, you DON'T really have to run instances or pvp for decent armor.
They have quest at lvl 60 you can do for armor, and you have can gain rep and get rewards for new things.
But if you can think of anything else you can put for endgame, please say.
Groovy.