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The two greatest RPG licenses, lost to us! (for now) [D+D, LOTR]

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  • SturmrabeSturmrabe Member Posts: 927

    Nice post....

    While I essentially agree with you about a MMO based on Tolkien not doing it justice, but nothing ever will, so one has to let that go.

    Not the cartoons, not the Movies, no other translation of media will stand of the man's own words. But it IS possible to honor it.

    Take for example AoC, Robert E. Howard's brilliance was once shunned because its content, trivialized because of his publishing media, and then largly forgotten in general, and people have seen it as something that could be bastardized without the same kind of reverance someone like Tolkien gets. But it is none the less writing at its best, and the begining of the real Fantasy/Sword and Sorcery genre that most of these games take place in. It would be very easy for Funcom to screw it up.

    It would be just as easy for people like me and other Clanmates of mine who are lifelong fans who have had the addiction handed down from relatives, to be temped to do the kind of browbeating to FC as the people on the LORTO people are doing to them.

    But the real synergy of AoC is the middle ground struck: the devs are treating it reverantly and the fans have been giving helpful comments to stop major lore mistakes (me: "X god was worshipped by Y people, having him worshipped by Z people is not going to work", Funcom Devs "Ok, thanks" then makes a tweek) instead or railing for a rewrite of a book.

    We have given them that the game is a translation of one media to another so its not going to be perfect, but as long as FC does its dead best to keep is far closer than any of those Ahrnold movies ever did, we can both be happy.


    As for D&D its a fine system with a long history, but I do not actually consider it awesome. It is essentially average. Perfectly adequate for an RPG, especially as a PnP game with a DM. If you wanna run a table top game and do some RP etc D&D offers everything you need as an ok framework for doing so. But as a CRPG without a DM etc. Most D&D winds up being simply average. I mean D&D's system is not meant to be exactly flashy, its for the players and the DM to makethings flashy.
    But thats the point, the game has to BE the DM, not the module!

    Its up to the devs to make it possible for US as players to MAKE it flashy (er at least), and the computer should be able to HELP it do just that, and not be one of the limitations you just talked about.

    And the MMORPG game, and its devs, could have used the computing tools, and the lessons learned by other games (EQ for instance) and learn from them, and take the dynamic tools learned in the industry from lots of years and lots of games, and used them to fill in some gaps rather than to exaserbate them or ingore them.

    Instead of sayin "We have a ready make audience for [DDO/LOTR] so we don't HAVE to be innovatice, just crank out something and give it to them" they could have said "Lets make an awesome game, X and Y element of the license will be hard to translate, so lets start writing a new program!

    imageimage
    Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche

  • AoC is differnt because in my opinion the Conan world is capable of fitting very nicely into a systematized RPG.

    Conan's world is gritty and real.  A sword in the gut is a sword in the gut. 

    Many of  the  aspects of Tolkein's world are inherently mythical and spiritual/mental.  Half the magic of Tolkein is based upon emphemeral things and concepts of spiritual power and wisdom.  Elves are not just physically more powerful than an average man, but spiritually more powerful.  That is why Glorfindel appears to shine with a brilliant light and the Nine appear different when Frodo puts on the ring and is partially placed into the spiritual portion of the world.  The very mechanics of power are vague and purposfully left mysterious in order to preserve the mythic and legnedary quality.  Some of the feats of the heroes of tolkein are fundamentally impossible.  Hurin single handedly kills 100 trolls and yet there is no real explanation why Hurin can do this and a normal competent fighting men get mauled.  There is no way to have a system opreate on the level Tolkein stuff did.  There is no way to truly represent just how much better a Numenorian or even a partial Numenorian, like Aragon, really is and still have a good RPG system.   The way Tolkein's world is set up is in a way fundamentally contrary to some of the aspects of actually systematizing a world.

    Why was Fingolfin such an incredible badass compared to even other Noldor?  We just don't know and explaining it would not only ruin the story, but it would eventually wind up just being silly.  What Fingolfin gets a power rating of 10 and Morgoth has a power rating of 17 and Maedhros would have a power rating of 7 and yet morgoth owns Maedhros and Fingolfin is able to cripple a god?  Bleh. 

    Conan though he just kills people.  And just like Conan, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, which were inspired by Conan, could easily fit in an RPG.  And really the "sword and sorcery" genre that REH created fits into an RPG rather easily because the world are realistic.  Conan and Fafhrd are big and strong ann cagey fighters, the Mouser is a a fast a quikc rougish fighter.  Its solid and written in a solid manner.  You know Conan smashed some guy overhead with a jawbone or that the Mouser did a quick riposte and impaled his foe.

    Modern high fantasy is not really like Tolkein.  It is really a hybridization of REH "sword and sorcery" and Tolkein, althouh REH doesn't generaly get credit for that.  There are almost no fantasy books written with the sensibiliteis and mythical nature of Tolkein.  Most high fantasy borrows Tolkien-like themes and then writes in a manner far more similar to REH.  A far more solid and defined narrative and world.

    Now that I think about someone make a Lanhkmar MMORPG ;).




  • busdriverbusdriver Member Posts: 859

    Originally posted by shae
    Originally posted by Razorback
    Im pretty much in agreement with the OP. Turbine have shown with D&D what the philosophy of creating a game around 1 persons interpretation of a licence is like.... basically crap lol.... I get no comfort from reading the design docs for LoTRo as it seems they are on the same path again. Whacky ideas about things will work that 95% of people look at and go WTF ??, but the devs seem to brush it aside and press on with the madness anyway. I mean... who could argue that LoTR is a PvP environment. Every inch of the lands outside places like the shire is desperate and dangerous. So whats the solution ? Have players earn points toward taking over a monster for a while in order to simulate playing the "evil" side of the LoTR world.... I mean.... WHAAAAAAAAAT image I guess it was too easy to just let someone play an Orc ???

    This is what absolutely KILLS me about what Turbine is doing with LoTRo...!!!

    Ok here you have an IP based around the most Epic of all Epic battles almost ever written about, I mean seriously think about the books, it was constant fear, constant danger, epic battles and epic heros, horrible things lurking around every corner, good guys who you warn't to sure were good guys at all and amazing characters and courage comming from the most unlikely of people and bad guys that were so interesting you liked reading pages and pages that were just about them.

    And so Turbins idea is uh... well, how about we let you turn into monsters! Uh... WHAT !!!???

    It absolutely BLOWs MY MIND.

    OK, yes, DDO is a horrible masacre of the D&D IP but whatever, it's a bad game, it will develope a niche or die, really in the end, it's not big loss. But, how in the world do you take such a horribly narrow point of view with such an amazing amount of story telling to choose from in an IP like Lord of the Rings.

    As much as I hate to say it, because I'm really not a vindictive person, but if Turbine doesn't get their heads out of their asses, they completely deserve to go under if they can't manage to do something at least semi-decent with this game.


    I absolutely agree with both posters about the LOTRO "PvP", it's a complete joke. But the main reason for such a crappy idea of PvP might not be the developers fault alone but the licence they got. The licence doesn't give much freedom to LOTRO developers and does prevent the possibility of playing evil races (note, all this is just hearsay, not like I actually seen the contract), hence the crappy PvP idea.

    As for DDO... yes it's crap, but I didn't like the PnP D&D either, it had stupid combat rules or something like that... cna't remember, it's been almost 20 years... anyway I remember playing another PnP called Rolemaster which owned D&D in every department. The point is, I've never been a fan of D&D in the first place so I really wasn't disappointed when DDO was released.


  • n2k3156n2k3156 Member Posts: 523
    Ouch. My bad on that. I dunno what I was thinking there.


    NGE Refugee.

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  • HadesprimeHadesprime Member Posts: 303
    amatuers who have no idea the scope of D&D will say DDO is decent. But after having read litterally every book related to D&D I can say that DDO falls very very short of what an MMO based on D&D could have been.

    There is nothing innovative about the game and its totally group orientated ( which isn't bad but they new a few viable solo options for those times when you can't get a group). Not to mention its bland and one dimensional. Every dungeon run is the same and people just blitz through them now.


    With the likes of James Jones having worked on it the game was doomed right from the start. It was a rushed out the door product and Turbine is now trying to cowtow to whatever vocal minority group is complaining at the time.

    Turbine products are cursed because they can never figure out the definitive path to take with their MMO's. They got into the market at a time when there weren't many options for the player. But now its different with games like POB and Warhammer coming out LOTRO and DDO are really going to have to shine.

    Personally I think Warhammer will be the next WoW. It has aspects that will appeal to both the PVE type and PVP'er as well. Both can totally grow in their own respective favorite game styles and game play likes.





  • AntipathyAntipathy Member UncommonPosts: 1,362


    Originally posted by Hadesprime
    amatuers who have no idea the scope of D&D will say DDO is decent.

    Hmm - in what sense are you a professional? How can you slag off people who like a different game to you as "amateurs".

    I don't play DDO. But I have 3 friends who do, and each of them has 20+ years of roleplaying experience, including not only playing D & D, but also many other systems (including diceless games, LARPS, freeforms etc.). One of them won a prize a couple of years ago for the best GM at Gencon UK. I would say they have a fair idea of the true scope of roleplaying generally, not just D&D.


    But after having read litterally every book related to D&D I can say that DDO falls very very short of what an MMO based on D&D could have been.

    I think this comment says alot more about what sort of person you are, rather than DDO.

    I'd also say the an important point of PnP games is that they are only limited by your imagination. There is no way any computer generated rules system can possibly recreate that.



    There is nothing innovative about the game and its totally group orientated ( which isn't bad but they new a few viable solo options for those times when you can't get a group).

    It strikes me that the extreme group oriented nature of the game is one of it's more innovative features. Certainly a strong contrast to WoW, where you spend large amounts of your time soloing. I believe it's also one of the features that attracted my friends to the game.

    The built in voice support is also very nice, and certainly isn't present in many other much higher budget games. If I talk to my friends about how other games like WoW and EQ2 work, they see the absence of voice in your standard PuG as being a big negative.

    I wouldn't be surprised if this innovation becomes a standard feature in MMOs over the next five years.


    Personally I think Warhammer will be the next WoW. It has aspects that will appeal to both the PVE type and PVP'er as well. Both can totally grow in their own respective favorite game styles and game play likes.

    I doubt it. Tabletop warhammer is a cynical marketing exercise aimed at selling as many plastic figures to kids as possible. It did a huge amount of damage to the real roleplaying hobby (as people would grow out of the childish nature of much of games workshops material without realising there is so much more out there). If people think the playerbase of WoW is immature wait until you see the sort of people attracted to WhO.


  • SturmrabeSturmrabe Member Posts: 927


    As for DDO... yes it's crap, but I didn't like the PnP D&D either, it had stupid combat rules or something like that... cna't remember, it's been almost 20 years... anyway I remember playing another PnP called Rolemaster which owned D&D in every department. The point is, I've never been a fan of D&D in the first place so I really wasn't disappointed when DDO was released.

    To this and the poster above (Antipathy) this is not a pissing contest about what RPG was best or who played what for how long, personally I preffered Cyberpunk and Hero's Unlimited's open ended skill system where you had a 2d10 percentile role for everything, and could have any skill listed or that you could imagine and a % chance to do it dependant on many factors that the GM figured.

    But that is not the point.

    Like it or not, the size and adapability of D+D, the kind of game that could be played with ONE PC, 2, 10, or whatever, the detailed and loving care put into crafting your char, and all the other things like imagination, adaptability, and out-of-the-box nonlinear problem solving that could help you past seemingly insurmountable obstacles, all these things are not only gone, but DDO is completely devoid of anything even similar.

    I understand the limits of online gaming, but the limits were not even approached.

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    Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche

  • AntipathyAntipathy Member UncommonPosts: 1,362

    Originally posted by Sturmrabe

    I understand the limits of online gaming, but the limits were not even approached.





    And neither have they been approached by any other game on the market. It strikes me that although turbine has it's shortcomings, it's not so bad compared to alot of other games companies.

    Consider the list of games launched since DDO. Can you honestly say that any of them are any better in terms of content?

    Seed?
    Auto assault?
    Dark and light?
    Roma Victor?
    Phantasy Star Universe?
    The Legend of Ares?
    Archlord?

    In order to find another game with more content than the current version of DDO, you have to go back several years to games that have been around far longer and have a much bigger subscriber base.

    Turbine really isn't that bad. So they didn't live up to your own high expectations. Tough. That doesn't mean that some people, my friends included,  aren't enjoying DDO, and I suspect that by slagging off LOTR long before developement is finished you are doing nothing but harm to the game.
  • indyneindyne Member Posts: 81

    Originally posted by Hadesprime
    Personally I think Warhammer will be the next WoW. It has aspects that will appeal to both the PVE type and PVP'er as well. Both can totally grow in their own respective favorite game styles and game play likes.

    I seriously hope this isn't the case...seriously, and I doubt it will be.  WoW has attracted tons of people who don't even usually play MMORPGs.  For many, this is their first, and possibly last.  I just don't see it happening, popularity wise.


    [Here's a list of all the games I've played and/or my computer specs to show how much more seasoned or technologically advanced I am than you.]

  • avediasavedias Member Posts: 118



    Originally posted by vendris



    Originally posted by gestalt11
    Actually I am always highly skeptical of any CRPG based around Tolkein or D&D.  I love Tolkein but I do not think it makes for a good RPG in any sense.

    Maybe he expected them to actually care about the game and the players the way SOE is still constantly releasing expansions and improvements for Everquest 1? 




    They just released a complete revamp of the game last december, upgrading all the graphics and adding tons of quests and a new race...I do agree they don't focus a lot of their attention to AC, but i think it's understandable when you have 2 other games that are receiving a lot of attention. I dont know, I love turbine. Also, you gotta think about SOE and how large of a company they are, I don't think turbine is too huge yet. They might not have the funds to support the manpower it takes to multitask to that extent.
  • GRIMACHUGRIMACHU Member Posts: 528

    This is what absolutely KILLS me about what Turbine is doing with LoTRo...!!! Ok here you have an IP based around the most Epic of all Epic battles almost ever written about, I mean seriously think about the books, it was constant fear, constant danger, epic battles and epic heros, horrible things lurking around every corner, good guys who you warn't to sure were good guys at all and amazing characters and courage comming from the most unlikely of people and bad guys that were so interesting you liked reading pages and pages that were just about them. And so Turbins idea is uh... well, how about we let you turn into monsters! Uh... WHAT !!!??? It absolutely BLOWs MY MIND.
    Actually I think this is a fantastic idea.

    PvPers always claim that they just do it for the challenge and enjoyment, not to screw people over.
    PvErs don't like fighting each other.
    PvE games tend to have a better community.
    PvP games tend to have a worse community.

    They've come up with a way of keeping the game PvE and maintaining the community 'us against them' feel while also providing the PvPers with what they CLAIM they want.

    Perfect solution and something I've been harping on about for ages.

    That the PvP junkies are whining about it just shows 'em up as hypocritical b*stards.


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  • nomadiannomadian Member Posts: 3,490
    I like Turbine but think they should have perhaps problemsolved what was wrong with AC2 before moving onto another big project. Turbine seem to have a lot of talent just strange with the design of the game overall.


  • SturmrabeSturmrabe Member Posts: 927

    Lets see if I can rephrase:

    I am not talking about the theoretical limit of human imagination or ability, I'm talking about the limits we have with the technology and the mechanics at hand.

    Turbine's games may look good, but they don't even utilize the best of whats been done, they aren't mext gen, they are ripping of 2004-5 games, and not even current ones.

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    Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche

  • osc8rosc8r Member UncommonPosts: 688

    Originally posted by GRIMACHU

    Aually I think this is a fantastic idea.

    PvPers always claim that they just do it for the challenge and enjoyment, not to screw people over.

    Partially correct. We do it for the challenge and enjoyment that is given by risk vs reward ie pvp looting. If i'm not going to have any consequences when i win or die any feelings of defeat or victory slowly faid into nothingness in a very short timeframe. It terms into another form of PVE battling but with better AI - boring!

    PvErs don't like fighting each other.
    PvE games tend to have a better community.
    PvP games tend to have a worse community.

    Disagree. I have never seen a worse community than in WOW. Everyone is in it for themselves and no one else. There are kiddies spamming L33T talk left right and centre. In open PVP games (with loot) alliances, friendships and guilds actually mean something. There are consequences for your actions and if you don't like someone, you can actually do something about it!

    They've come up with a way of keeping the game PvE and maintaining the community 'us against them' feel while also providing the PvPers with what they CLAIM they want.

    See above.

    That the PvP junkies are whining about it just shows 'em up as hypocritical b*stards.

    No, you just need to read between the lines better.

  • busdriverbusdriver Member Posts: 859

    Originally posted by GRIMACHU
    This is what absolutely KILLS me about what Turbine is doing with LoTRo...!!! Ok here you have an IP based around the most Epic of all Epic battles almost ever written about, I mean seriously think about the books, it was constant fear, constant danger, epic battles and epic heros, horrible things lurking around every corner, good guys who you warn't to sure were good guys at all and amazing characters and courage comming from the most unlikely of people and bad guys that were so interesting you liked reading pages and pages that were just about them. And so Turbins idea is uh... well, how about we let you turn into monsters! Uh... WHAT !!!??? It absolutely BLOWs MY MIND.
    Actually I think this is a fantastic idea.

    PvPers always claim that they just do it for the challenge and enjoyment, not to screw people over.
    PvErs don't like fighting each other.
    PvE games tend to have a better community.
    PvP games tend to have a worse community.

    They've come up with a way of keeping the game PvE and maintaining the community 'us against them' feel while also providing the PvPers with what they CLAIM they want.

    Perfect solution and something I've been harping on about for ages.

    That the PvP junkies are whining about it just shows 'em up as hypocritical b*stards.

    Spoken like a true carebearimage


  • osc8rosc8r Member UncommonPosts: 688

    Originally posted by Sturmrabe
    Turbine's games may look good, but they don't even utilize the best of whats been done, they aren't mext gen, they are ripping of 2004-5 games, and not even current ones.

    Same could be [and has been] said about WOW - oh, except it has crap graphics.


  • SturmrabeSturmrabe Member Posts: 927




    Originally posted by osc8r


    Same could be [and has been] said about WOW - oh, except it has crap graphics.



    Yeah, but you can say that about EVERY Turbine game since AC1...

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  • GRIMACHUGRIMACHU Member Posts: 528

    Spoken like a true carebearimage


    They've found a way to give both 'camps' what they SAY they want. The PvPers who 'monster' even get rewards for their main characters. It seems like the ideal solution... unless most PvPers are lying toerags who are just trying to justify their ganking and selfish behaviour by saying 'I like a challenge'.

    When they're PvEing they'll get the challenge and thrill of fighting real people behind some of the monsters.
    When they're Monstering they'll get their challenge of fighting real people.

    Oh, and I'd consider WoW a PvP game for the most part, what with the PvP 'levels' and the battlegrounds and everything else.

    Most of the time I'd advocate splitting the communities up and never-the-twain-shall meet, but again, PvPers whine without uninterested parties to gank so, again, this seems like an ideal solution.

    DDO's problem was that it didn't create a world, it wasn't loose and open enough. It limited gameplay very tightly to one thing that TTRPGs, even D&D, have largely moved beyond since the end of the 80's. If they'd called it 'Dungeonraper Online' it would have been more accurate.

    They failed to make a world.
    They used Eberron instead of Forgotten Realms.
    They're charging for what amounts to Guildwars.
    There were better ways to do it and yeah, NWN2 blows it out of the water.

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  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204


    Originally posted by GRIMACHU
    They failed to make a world.

    Yeah, that's a big part of what turned me off about DDO. You essentially have one city and you teleport off to dungeons then back. There's no world to explore at all, no local lord to ask about this or odd ruin near the border town. In P&P games you might spend most gaming time in a dungeon, but a good DM would give you a good impression that you're travelling through lands where stuff can happen and doing things around other people. And you don't really complete dungeons, you keep rerunning them like any other MMO. Just uninspired overall IMO.

  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204


    Originally posted by Razorback
    I mean... who could argue that LoTR is a PvP environment. Every inch of the lands outside places like the shire is desperate and dangerous. So whats the solution ?

    Hmm... I don't recall a single point in the LoTR books or movies where the characters were ambushed by random bandits. All of the encounters I can remember were things I'd consider PVE encounters in a game. I can't think of any reason why you'd want the game to be about avoiding marauding gangs of bandidts who would set up ambushes and attack in huge numbers, then use alt accounts for any peaceful stuff they need to do.

  • ginfress01ginfress01 Member Posts: 203



    Originally posted by Pantastic




    Originally posted by Razorback
    I mean... who could argue that LoTR is a PvP environment. Every inch of the lands outside places like the shire is desperate and dangerous. So whats the solution ?

    Hmm... I don't recall a single point in the LoTR books or movies where the characters were ambushed by random bandits. All of the encounters I can remember were things I'd consider PVE encounters in a game. I can't think of any reason why you'd want the game to be about avoiding marauding gangs of bandidts who would set up ambushes and attack in huge numbers, then use alt accounts for any peaceful stuff they need to do.




    Drat and here i thought that Frodo and his friends had to battle "massmurderer", "Angelofdeath", "lfgh" , Drizzzzzt" ,  "Frodo001" and so on and so on. Darn they had to climb doommountain and had to slay "farmer001" and all his freinds  because the best loot drops at that place. There shouldnt be pvp at all in the game, pvp-ers should be happy with what they got in the game.
  • AntipathyAntipathy Member UncommonPosts: 1,362

    Originally posted by GRIMACHU
    They used Eberron instead of Forgotten Realms.

    The campaign world used would have been far more likely to have been chosen by the D&D copyright holders, Wizards of the Coast rather than Turbine. Wizards are trying to push Eberron pretty hard at the moment.
  • GRIMACHUGRIMACHU Member Posts: 528

    Originally posted by Antipathy
    Originally posted by GRIMACHU
    They used Eberron instead of Forgotten Realms.

    The campaign world used would have been far more likely to have been chosen by the D&D copyright holders, Wizards of the Coast rather than Turbine. Wizards are trying to push Eberron pretty hard at the moment.

    Yep, that's what happened.
    Doesn't make it a better decision though.


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  • HadesprimeHadesprime Member Posts: 303

    Originally posted by Antipathy
    Originally posted by Hadesprime
    amatuers who have no idea the scope of D&D will say DDO is decent.

    Hmm - in what sense are you a professional? How can you slag off people who like a different game to you as "amateurs".

    I don't play DDO. But I have 3 friends who do, and each of them has 20+ years of roleplaying experience, including not only playing D & D, but also many other systems (including diceless games, LARPS, freeforms etc.). One of them won a prize a couple of years ago for the best GM at Gencon UK. I would say they have a fair idea of the true scope of roleplaying generally, not just D&D.


    But after having read litterally every book related to D&D I can say that DDO falls very very short of what an MMO based on D&D could have been.

    I think this comment says alot more about what sort of person you are, rather than DDO.

    I'd also say the an important point of PnP games is that they are only limited by your imagination. There is no way any computer generated rules system can possibly recreate that.



    There is nothing innovative about the game and its totally group orientated ( which isn't bad but they new a few viable solo options for those times when you can't get a group).

    It strikes me that the extreme group oriented nature of the game is one of it's more innovative features. Certainly a strong contrast to WoW, where you spend large amounts of your time soloing. I believe it's also one of the features that attracted my friends to the game.

    The built in voice support is also very nice, and certainly isn't present in many other much higher budget games. If I talk to my friends about how other games like WoW and EQ2 work, they see the absence of voice in your standard PuG as being a big negative.

    I wouldn't be surprised if this innovation becomes a standard feature in MMOs over the next five years.


    Personally I think Warhammer will be the next WoW. It has aspects that will appeal to both the PVE type and PVP'er as well. Both can totally grow in their own respective favorite game styles and game play likes.

    I doubt it. Tabletop warhammer is a cynical marketing exercise aimed at selling as many plastic figures to kids as possible. It did a huge amount of damage to the real roleplaying hobby (as people would grow out of the childish nature of much of games workshops material without realising there is so much more out there). If people think the playerbase of WoW is immature wait until you see the sort of people attracted to WhO.






    one city does not a D&D world make. They failed to capture the essence of what D&D is. Its GW on a pay for play scale with D&D ruleset thats it. But it certainly has no real D&D feel to it and the D&D IP is about a lot more than the tabletop game. its fiction and books are vastly more popular than the PnP game. They could have done a much better job on that. Right now the game has no atmosphere and Stormreach is pretty much Battlenet lobby place till you can get another group.

    Adding built in voice is hardly innovative. Its one of the reasons why the game uses instances. Still the serious DDO'er doesn't even use it they still use vent and thats fact. Group orientated play iinnovative ? Hardly. What happens when you can't get a group ? You are completely SOL and that happens a lot in DDO. Also with its time committments I wouldn't even say that DDO was casual friendly. Once you are in a group and adventuring you are committed for the duration. So if ya gotta do rl stuff inbetween kills forget it. Now as I said this isn't bad after all it is a MMOG is it not ? Just that they need to have more viable options to do other things for the times you can't get a group.

    Oh and the list of games you rifled off that do not have more content than DDO ? You do firmly grasp the content in DDO is cookie cutter right ? Once you have a template for the dungeon you can recreate many other adventures. It has about as much content as anything recently released. Perhaps a little bit more.

    Where does DDO shine ? Its combat system is actually pretty fun. Open up the game world and give it more of a D&D feel and it could do pretty well.

    Warhammer ? Yes this game will blow away recently released games NOT because of GW's tabletop practices. But because it offers seperate paths for those that want to grow in a PVE aspect and for those that enjoy PVP. Yes you can level and grow in both environments without touching the other.

    All I really know is that DDO as it is now is not what it could fully be. They rush it out the door to fast thinking the IP would garantee huge profit margins. I think we can safely say that though its making a buck its hardly making huge profit margins. They could have done better and perhaps till can.

    LOTRO ? Well I will reserve judgement till I see it. I hope they do this IP right.



  • BesCirgaBesCirga Member Posts: 806
    I have to say acouple of words here...Let me start with saying i have liked every Turbine game up to date.

    As for DDO, im glad its closed in as it is, only because pnp DnD rules dont work at all in PvP. In a normal open MMO world (as WoW) the pvp is essential (atleast for me) and with broken pvp it would been unplayable. spells/abilities like HOLD, Hypnotisim, facinate, ottos dance, blind, slow etc.the list is almost endless in spellsabilities 
    which render you helpless. so basicly it all comes down to your saves, low saves = useless in pvp, which ends up 
    in a skilless pvp system.   If you dont belive me, download the free trial and try.
    DDO on the other hand work very well as a sosical questing game, where fun is the main factor. best suited for casual players tho....

    Some corrections: AC2 had 5 races and alot of shops (vendors).

    games grow and AC2 was a great game in the end. RIP

    Bes
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