"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
If you play a game with good pvp, then pvpers are the majority... If you play PVE based games with weak or no pvp then pvpers will be the majority. Just because noone wants to play sandwich style EQ pvp or whatever you play doesn't mean pvpers are some small minority.
Besides which people become pvpers all the time, and pvpers don't often if ever turn into carebears (maybe take breaks from pvping) Its like growing up...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
I agree Kriminal and thats a statement I made numerous times in the past. Id like to first say I enjoy all out pvp and I for one dont mind being ganked because thats a part of the pvp aspect I like......yes its not always fair.........yes you can actually die and YES u can actually get looted. It is like growing up in a sense where I can handle a loss in a game and my outcome is not certain. I like challenges in a game, if im level 50000 and i go fight the same monsters I fought yesterday that I crushed what do you think is gonna happen today? Unless you are delirous or delusional I think your answer will be right on the money.
Shadowbane came out with all out pvp and all out looting and all that stuff that the hard core pvpers enjoy. But the content and gameplay was just not good enuff to get the game going in the direction some thought it might go. Take old UO for instance....that game was so awesome because you could do so many things...whether it was pvp, socializing, muling it, even roleplaying. The game changed for the sole purpose of money if you ask me so many of the pvpers left and have been waiting on a game that mirrors old UO. And yes my fellow UOers there seems to be some games on the horizon.
What it boils down to for the 10000th time is this...if you like pvp then get the game that is most appealing to you. If you like only pve than get the game that is most appealing to you. But dont get a game and bitch about it over and over again and try to spoil it for everybody else...thats what this site is for.
Originally posted by TMcC What it boils down to for the 10000th time is this...if you like pvp then get the game that is most appealing to you. If you like only pve than get the game that is most appealing to you. But dont get a game and bitch about it over and over again and try to spoil it for everybody else...thats what this site is for.
Originally posted by hercules Agreed Tmcc ,if you want a pvp game get it.No point buying shadowbane and then crying you got ganked. Go for what suits you. On a side note,kriminal believes that everyone enjoys pvp even if they say they don't
The point is not about what's already been released, but about feedback to the dev's working on future games. I'd hate to see a game like EQ2 suddenly change, due to feedback, and have a bunch of annoying (to me and some others) P vs P, when such a game traditionally is about content.
Anyway, the P vs P record speaks for itself in Shadowbane and the splitting of servers in UO.
Once again, the proper answer may be to have a server or two catering to either side of this issue in each upcoming game.
Originally posted by Billius8 The point is not about what's already been released, but about feedback to the dev's working on future games. I'd hate to see a game like EQ2 suddenly change, due to feedback, and have a bunch of annoying (to me and some others) P vs P, when such a game traditionally is about content.
Billus, do honestly believe posting here or anywhere else for that matter is going to amount to a hill of beans to a game company?
This board is about us speaking freely our sharing idea's. They have 0 effect on anything else.
Game companies chose what market they wish to go after and do what they can to make the most money. If your seeing a trend in a increased PvP, it's because companies feel that will make money by having PvP than without.
If you do not enjoy PvP the best thing you can do is to vote with your dollar and never play a game that supports PvP.
There are hordes of game from Full PvP to No PvP and even no killing at all. Why not post how wonderfull some non-PvP game is, rather than post your monthly anti-PvP dribble?
Be happy with what you have, you'll not be influencing anyone to change.
-=-=-=-=- Make no mistake, MMORPG's are not games, they are hobbies. If you have a job, you'll need to give up watching TV in order to play one. You'll be better off for it.
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
-=-=-=-=- Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
Like he said. No one is going to influence them. No amount of posting or anything else. There games are not aimed at pvp fans. The games are targeted at the general gamer. And dying to another player seems to drive people away. Unless of course it is with little to no actual loss.
My biggest problem is I want an MMORPG that actually has an RPG aspect *and* an MMO, not either or. I can go play PS2 or single player standard RPGs that are just as full of "content" as 90% of the 2nd, and it looks like most 3rd "generation" games. Player interaction? yeah, I enjoy it. But if you want to start an internet romance why not head to an AOL chat. Between punishing PvPers, no-kill zones, seperate pvp servers etc etc it makes these games into standard RPGs or visually beautiful chat rooms.
It would be nice if just *one* big name MMORPG gave us something. But they continue to serve the teenagers and elderly that seem to want a pretty little online game with no real substance.
Originally posted by TheFoo It would be nice if just *one* big name MMORPG gave us something. But they continue to serve the teenagers and elderly that seem to want a pretty little online game with no real substance.
I believe most people are willing to play PvP as Kriminal says, BUT, and it is a huge but, it has to be done right. Most people refered to as "carebears" just do not want to get ganked and griefed. Most Pro-PvP'rs say stuff like, fight back, gather a gang and hunt them down, blah blah blah, but the problem is, there just isn't a real penalty even if they do hunt the ganbker down and kill him.
What this means is, there isn't any REAL justice. The ganker/griefers fun is in attacking people who do not want to be attacked. And the minute they force you to play their game, your game is no longer fun. You hunt them down and kill them, it is what they want. But when they hnt down other poeple and kill them, it is NOT what they wanted. And most would not mind the "fight back" thing if you really could. But you can't. Who cares that you kill them, they just respawn and come back. But when the ganker killed me, he ruined my fun, wasted my 10 minute run to where my friends are standing, waitinmg for me to show up so we can go on a hunt together.
This is not a whine, like the gankers are going to say. And I know they are.
If done correctly, then many (I will never say all), but many people would enjoy a PvP type game. But it has not been done right, and probably never will.
I agree there has to be a penalty for pkers but it cant be a penalty thats too harsh or the game myswell not even be pvp. In the same aspect where you dont want to be pked{i enjoyed the chance of being pked and losin everything} I dont want to have such severe penalties against my pk where I lose a ton of stats and so on after workin on him for countless hours on end.
As for the zoing and the seperate server deal.....I feel if a player is gonna be jumping from pvp to non pvp areas they should have to pay a stiff tole or something to make it a lil more then a skip and a jump like it was in UO with trammel. I dont think its fair if a player wants to be "safe" and then decide to go to a pvp area with little or zero chance of getting pked/attacked.
Originally posted by TMcC As for the zoing and the seperate server deal.....I feel if a player is gonna be jumping from pvp to non pvp areas they should have to pay a stiff tole or something to make it a lil more then a skip and a jump like it was in UO with trammel. I dont think its fair if a player wants to be "safe" and then decide to go to a pvp area with little or zero chance of getting pked/attacked.
I agree on this too. I do not want people jumping into PK land, ganking somebody from behind who wasn't expecting it, and then running out again. Laughing and taunting... That would be dumb.
Maybe the entrance should be far from the exit. So, if you enter the PK land in the East gate, you have to exit via the West gate. So, you have to actually travel across PK land to get out again. Or, maybe you should have to have been out of combat for 10 minutes before you get out. I am not sure, but something.
Or, in the case of Open PK. There needs to be a way for people to have a chance of identifying who might attack them. Maybe, if I am an Elf, I know that all dwarves are enemies. Or, as in Pre-Trammel UO, the dark lords were tagged red.
It is not fun to have no idea who might attack you when they approach. It is fine if it is a PK "zone", but if the whole game is open PK, there needs to be an identification method of some sort. Easy or difficult, it does not matter. I should not need to be in a position that I run from anybody stronger than me the instant I see them. That just isn't fun, and makes meeting new people all that more difficult.
PvP. Ah, the challenge of it all. Every game that I have played has PvP in some form or another. UO(PKer Hunting was my favorite past time.), AC (Lame PvP in my O), DAOC (Awesome battles on the golf course ) and lately I have been playing Planetside. (All PvP all the time.)
PvE. The trick is not not fall asleep during the level grind. PvE is great for a while. Yes, you get to enjoy the visual stimulation and puzzling out the AI to defeat a certain mob can be fun. But puzzling out AI has a finite conclusion. Either you can or can not defeat it.
The unknown is what really drives me. I have been in situations in PvP where I just get smoked and have come back to give a little surprise payback only to find out that he (or she) knew exactly what I was planning to do and smoked me again. It is going up against that kind of variable situation that makes it exciting for me. Live or Die, I learn something from every encounter. There is only one thing that you can learn from a PvE encounter.
Let's face it, PvE is Whack a Mole with shifting heads to smash. In PvP the moles get to hit back.
By the way, I went back for a third time and beat the living crap out of the person. We chatted about it later and had a good laugh.
You know, there is an easy solution to this. Let people choose to be monsters.
Have it so when you login, you can hit the "I want to be a monster" button. Then you get to be the very next mkonster that spawns. So, you could randomly be the next 5th level gnoll or 40th level cyclops that spawns. You can attack the nearest character you see, or you could attempt to run to the nearest town and cause mass maounts of havoc.
I have wondered why this was not put into any games. I think it could be a lot of fun.
I can imagine 4 or 5 humans spawning in as gnolls in BlackBurrow in EQ. They gather, get organized and put an ass whoopin' to all the players inside. Would have made for great fun!
Dusty and Ignus's posts were awesome....You would think guys like us could find/get a game to come out where we would have tons of fun pkin and pvpin but what the hell is takin so long?? Im tired of waiting on this shit....
What a great idea Tasky! That would be a serious hoot. There would have to be some kind of limit placed on it or everyone would start logging in as monsters, but the idea is sound in my mind. What a great diversion from the level grind.
There would be no "You are an evil ganker" syndrome. You would just be truely roleplaying. What an absolutely great idea.
You could put a limit such that you can only log into one or the other in a given period of time. That would prevent some one who might get ticked off at another player from logging in as a mob to go and try and kill them.
I would love to see a company jump onto this idea. There are so many possibilities. Think of the events that you could put on using this idea. A group of players could be recruited to play the bad guys in a Ogre fort raid or infest a dungeon in a crawl event. It would be great!
Let me ask this... I'm a P vs E player, don't really like rampant P vs P, but I have to admit that on rare occasions (when bored, I guess) I get the biggest thrill training some mobs to a newbie zone or onto some poor mage who has sat down to med.
Funniest time was when I was a rogue with a group in the OT zone in EQ. We were near the Skyfire zone where the NPC Dark Elf General and his goons sometimes wander by. I saw them walking along and instead of alerting anyone, I just went invis (i.e. rogue hiding). Well, the cleric was AFK, so that didn't help, and half the group got wiped out or zoned. The cleric, unfortunately, had binded himself not far away, so he repopped and the Dark Elves waxed him again. HA HA. Then they started walking away, so I threw a shuriken at them and zoned myself, training them right back to the cleric who was just respawning.
Like he said. That is beyond PvP. That is worse. PvPers are generally bound by certain rules and limits. As well as punishments. Your actions are basically abusing a portion of the system in order to "grief" other players.
Playing as a monster? What do you get as a reward? Some exp? Extremely limited item use? weee. Monsters in most MMOs are either underpowerd or extremely overpowered.
The best system I have played so far was the old school UO. There was pking, and a system in place to make sure it didnt run rampant. But there was still the chance that you could die, and lose your items. Yes, I know it sounds insane, But you *gasps* lost your items! Not just the ones in your "worthless crap" slots. This made the game more then just another pretty EQ clone with "new exciting" features.
Comments
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
If you play a game with good pvp, then pvpers are the majority... If you play PVE based games with weak or no pvp then pvpers will be the majority. Just because noone wants to play sandwich style EQ pvp or whatever you play doesn't mean pvpers are some small minority.
Besides which people become pvpers all the time, and pvpers don't often if ever turn into carebears (maybe take breaks from pvping) Its like growing up...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
I agree Kriminal and thats a statement I made numerous times in the past. Id like to first say I enjoy all out pvp and I for one dont mind being ganked because thats a part of the pvp aspect I like......yes its not always fair.........yes you can actually die and YES u can actually get looted. It is like growing up in a sense where I can handle a loss in a game and my outcome is not certain. I like challenges in a game, if im level 50000 and i go fight the same monsters I fought yesterday that I crushed what do you think is gonna happen today? Unless you are delirous or delusional I think your answer will be right on the money.
Shadowbane came out with all out pvp and all out looting and all that stuff that the hard core pvpers enjoy. But the content and gameplay was just not good enuff to get the game going in the direction some thought it might go. Take old UO for instance....that game was so awesome because you could do so many things...whether it was pvp, socializing, muling it, even roleplaying. The game changed for the sole purpose of money if you ask me so many of the pvpers left and have been waiting on a game that mirrors old UO. And yes my fellow UOers there seems to be some games on the horizon.
What it boils down to for the 10000th time is this...if you like pvp then get the game that is most appealing to you. If you like only pve than get the game that is most appealing to you. But dont get a game and bitch about it over and over again and try to spoil it for everybody else...thats what this site is for.
Woot! Hear Hear!
Agreed Tmcc ,if you want a pvp game get it.No point buying shadowbane and then crying you got ganked.
Go for what suits you.
On a side note,kriminal believes that everyone enjoys pvp even if they say they don't
With PvP the human interaction is at a much higher lvl. If some lvl1 bitch is giving you shit you can kick his punk-ass.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Does not play well with others.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The point is not about what's already been released, but about feedback to the dev's working on future games. I'd hate to see a game like EQ2 suddenly change, due to feedback, and have a bunch of annoying (to me and some others) P vs P, when such a game traditionally is about content.
Anyway, the P vs P record speaks for itself in Shadowbane and the splitting of servers in UO.
Once again, the proper answer may be to have a server or two catering to either side of this issue in each upcoming game.
Billus, do honestly believe posting here or anywhere else for that matter is going to amount to a hill of beans to a game company?
This board is about us speaking freely our sharing idea's. They have 0 effect on anything else.
Game companies chose what market they wish to go after and do what they can to make the most money. If your seeing a trend in a increased PvP, it's because companies feel that will make money by having PvP than without.
If you do not enjoy PvP the best thing you can do is to vote with your dollar and never play a game that supports PvP.
There are hordes of game from Full PvP to No PvP and even no killing at all. Why not post how wonderfull some non-PvP game is, rather than post your monthly anti-PvP dribble?
Be happy with what you have, you'll not be influencing anyone to change.
-=-=-=-=-
Make no mistake, MMORPG's are not games, they are hobbies. If you have a job, you'll need to give up watching TV in order to play one. You'll be better off for it.
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
Like he said. No one is going to influence them. No amount of posting or anything else. There games are not aimed at pvp fans. The games are targeted at the general gamer. And dying to another player seems to drive people away. Unless of course it is with little to no actual loss.
My biggest problem is I want an MMORPG that actually has an RPG aspect *and* an MMO, not either or. I can go play PS2 or single player standard RPGs that are just as full of "content" as 90% of the 2nd, and it looks like most 3rd "generation" games. Player interaction? yeah, I enjoy it. But if you want to start an internet romance why not head to an AOL chat. Between punishing PvPers, no-kill zones, seperate pvp servers etc etc it makes these games into standard RPGs or visually beautiful chat rooms.
It would be nice if just *one* big name MMORPG gave us something. But they continue to serve the teenagers and elderly that seem to want a pretty little online game with no real substance.
I believe most people are willing to play PvP as Kriminal says, BUT, and it is a huge but, it has to be done right. Most people refered to as "carebears" just do not want to get ganked and griefed. Most Pro-PvP'rs say stuff like, fight back, gather a gang and hunt them down, blah blah blah, but the problem is, there just isn't a real penalty even if they do hunt the ganbker down and kill him.
What this means is, there isn't any REAL justice. The ganker/griefers fun is in attacking people who do not want to be attacked. And the minute they force you to play their game, your game is no longer fun. You hunt them down and kill them, it is what they want. But when they hnt down other poeple and kill them, it is NOT what they wanted. And most would not mind the "fight back" thing if you really could. But you can't. Who cares that you kill them, they just respawn and come back. But when the ganker killed me, he ruined my fun, wasted my 10 minute run to where my friends are standing, waitinmg for me to show up so we can go on a hunt together.
This is not a whine, like the gankers are going to say. And I know they are.
If done correctly, then many (I will never say all), but many people would enjoy a PvP type game. But it has not been done right, and probably never will.
I agree there has to be a penalty for pkers but it cant be a penalty thats too harsh or the game myswell not even be pvp. In the same aspect where you dont want to be pked{i enjoyed the chance of being pked and losin everything} I dont want to have such severe penalties against my pk where I lose a ton of stats and so on after workin on him for countless hours on end.
As for the zoing and the seperate server deal.....I feel if a player is gonna be jumping from pvp to non pvp areas they should have to pay a stiff tole or something to make it a lil more then a skip and a jump like it was in UO with trammel. I dont think its fair if a player wants to be "safe" and then decide to go to a pvp area with little or zero chance of getting pked/attacked.
I agree on this too. I do not want people jumping into PK land, ganking somebody from behind who wasn't expecting it, and then running out again. Laughing and taunting... That would be dumb.
Maybe the entrance should be far from the exit. So, if you enter the PK land in the East gate, you have to exit via the West gate. So, you have to actually travel across PK land to get out again. Or, maybe you should have to have been out of combat for 10 minutes before you get out. I am not sure, but something.
Or, in the case of Open PK. There needs to be a way for people to have a chance of identifying who might attack them. Maybe, if I am an Elf, I know that all dwarves are enemies. Or, as in Pre-Trammel UO, the dark lords were tagged red.
It is not fun to have no idea who might attack you when they approach. It is fine if it is a PK "zone", but if the whole game is open PK, there needs to be an identification method of some sort. Easy or difficult, it does not matter. I should not need to be in a position that I run from anybody stronger than me the instant I see them. That just isn't fun, and makes meeting new people all that more difficult.
∙name: EViLD0G
∙clan: [EXE]
∙playing: EQ, SIMS, AC, AC2, DAoC, FFXI, AW, RS
∙planning: SoR
PvP. Ah, the challenge of it all. Every game that I have played has PvP in some form or another. UO(PKer Hunting was my favorite past time.), AC (Lame PvP in my O), DAOC (Awesome battles on the golf course
) and lately I have been playing Planetside. (All PvP all the time.)
PvE. The trick is not not fall asleep during the level grind. PvE is great for a while. Yes, you get to enjoy the visual stimulation and puzzling out the AI to defeat a certain mob can be fun. But puzzling out AI has a finite conclusion. Either you can or can not defeat it.
The unknown is what really drives me. I have been in situations in PvP where I just get smoked and have come back to give a little surprise payback only to find out that he (or she) knew exactly what I was planning to do and smoked me again. It is going up against that kind of variable situation that makes it exciting for me. Live or Die, I learn something from every encounter. There is only one thing that you can learn from a PvE encounter.
Let's face it, PvE is Whack a Mole with shifting heads to smash. In PvP the moles get to hit back.
By the way, I went back for a third time and beat the living crap out of the person. We chatted about it later and had a good laugh.
Sometimes, it is better to say nothing at all. Cause big mouths results in big words, and big words travel like bacteria.
Sometimes, it is better to say nothing at all. Cause big mouths say big words, and big words travel like bacteria.
You know, there is an easy solution to this. Let people choose to be monsters.
Have it so when you login, you can hit the "I want to be a monster" button. Then you get to be the very next mkonster that spawns. So, you could randomly be the next 5th level gnoll or 40th level cyclops that spawns. You can attack the nearest character you see, or you could attempt to run to the nearest town and cause mass maounts of havoc.
I have wondered why this was not put into any games. I think it could be a lot of fun.
I can imagine 4 or 5 humans spawning in as gnolls in BlackBurrow in EQ. They gather, get organized and put an ass whoopin' to all the players inside. Would have made for great fun!
What a great idea Tasky! That would be a serious hoot. There would have to be some kind of limit placed on it or everyone would start logging in as monsters, but the idea is sound in my mind. What a great diversion from the level grind.
There would be no "You are an evil ganker" syndrome. You would just be truely roleplaying. What an absolutely great idea.
You could put a limit such that you can only log into one or the other in a given period of time. That would prevent some one who might get ticked off at another player from logging in as a mob to go and try and kill them.
I would love to see a company jump onto this idea. There are so many possibilities. Think of the events that you could put on using this idea. A group of players could be recruited to play the bad guys in a Ogre fort raid or infest a dungeon in a crawl event. It would be great!
very interesting... i shall read this thread in more detail soon... and i will post on it.
i'll raise my drink to the insightful posts
---------------------
Final Fantasy XI
Name: Rosencranz
World: Titan
---------------------
Final Fantasy XI
Name: Rosencranz
World: Titan
Let me ask this... I'm a P vs E player, don't really like rampant P vs P, but I have to admit that on rare occasions (when bored, I guess) I get the biggest thrill training some mobs to a newbie zone or onto some poor mage who has sat down to med.
Funniest time was when I was a rogue with a group in the OT zone in EQ. We were near the Skyfire zone where the NPC Dark Elf General and his goons sometimes wander by. I saw them walking along and instead of alerting anyone, I just went invis (i.e. rogue hiding). Well, the cleric was AFK, so that didn't help, and half the group got wiped out or zoned. The cleric, unfortunately, had binded himself not far away, so he repopped and the Dark Elves waxed him again. HA HA. Then they started walking away, so I threw a shuriken at them and zoned myself, training them right back to the cleric who was just respawning.
Is this P vs P behavior in a sense?
No thats griefing and griefers suck.
Like he said. That is beyond PvP. That is worse. PvPers are generally bound by certain rules and limits. As well as punishments. Your actions are basically abusing a portion of the system in order to "grief" other players.
Playing as a monster? What do you get as a reward? Some exp? Extremely limited item use? weee. Monsters in most MMOs are either underpowerd or extremely overpowered.
The best system I have played so far was the old school UO. There was pking, and a system in place to make sure it didnt run rampant. But there was still the chance that you could die, and lose your items. Yes, I know it sounds insane, But you *gasps* lost your items! Not just the ones in your "worthless crap" slots. This made the game more then just another pretty EQ clone with "new exciting" features.