Originally posted by itzit Originally posted by tomfred81 If you are truly looking for a game that is more solo oriented, than MMORPGs arent for you. There are plenty of single player RPGs out there-try Elder Scrolls 3 & 4 for instance. What differentiates these from the MMORPGs is the mass world of people in game.
So what you are saying is you want a single player RPG in a world of other people also going on solo? Doesn't make much sense. If you are saying that soloing should be just as accomadating as grouping, well again, thats not what an MMORPG is supposed to be....its an MMO.
DDO found out the hard way, that solo content is a neccesity. I solo 99% of the time in mmos. I like the evolving world of an mmo that single player games don't have. It is just the way I play and I have fun doing it. I find most single player games lacking now. And yes I solo in EVE too. Though I am thinking of at least finding a casual newbie corp. /fixed
i agree. static worlds are exactly that, static. thats not much fun. i only solo about 70% of the time though. i like the option of being able to party when i wanna though.
Originally posted by elvigy Sounds good to me. And to clarify, again, I did not try to say you were trolling. I pointed out the selfl-contradictions in your post and then, when I "got into it" with Plano, I said your post was troll-ish (since you did bash pretty much every feature of the game.) I then used trolling as shorthand terminology in referring to it. Not sure what a better term would have been-"self-contradictory and overly negative" is a bit much to continue typing, lol. Anyway, I'm out now. Time to go home, happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it!
Your still insisting that I self-contradicted myself, and that I bashed pretty much every feature of the game even after taking the time to specially explain it to you.
So far, according to you:
-I contradicted myself,
- I bashed almost every feature of the game,
- You told people not to believe me
- and you claimed my post to be troll-ish.
Thats the clarification, I know some people are big time supporters of game that are coming out soon, but you need to lay off from judging every word that a someone new who just found out about the game might say. We get it, you like the game and will support it, but allow me the oppurtinity to discover the game features by asking questions, by stating my opinions about certain game features and attempting to reach out to other people who might know more about the game then me, who might be able to give me certain insights of the game that just might help me become a fan of this title as well, without immediatly trying to discredit me for not being a fan instantanously the minute I read about this new game.
Refrain yourself from jumping on people's throats who share a different view and opinion. If I come insulting this game by all means attack, but if I come politely asking questions, please put the gun down.
glim3mer, the rest of us know why and what you were doing. elvigy is alone in his thoughts. i think he was just trying to get a rise out of you. and me for that matter. no harm done, really. we all know the truth of the matter. your rep. is safe.
Originally posted by elvigy Sounds good to me. And to clarify, again, I did not try to say you were trolling. I pointed out the selfl-contradictions in your post and then, when I "got into it" with Plano, I said your post was troll-ish (since you did bash pretty much every feature of the game.) I then used trolling as shorthand terminology in referring to it. Not sure what a better term would have been-"self-contradictory and overly negative" is a bit much to continue typing, lol. Anyway, I'm out now. Time to go home, happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it!
Your still insisting that I self-contradicted myself, and that I bashed pretty much every feature of the game even after taking the time to specially explain it to you.
So far, according to you:
-I contradicted myself,
- I bashed almost every feature of the game,
- You told people not to believe me
- and you claimed my post to be troll-ish.
Thats the clarification, I know some people are big time supporters of game that are coming out soon, but you need to lay off from judging every word that a someone new who just found out about the game might say. We get it, you like the game and will support it, but allow me the oppurtinity to discover the game features by asking questions, by stating my opinions about certain game features and attempting to reach out to other people who might know more about the game then me, who might be able to give me certain insights of the game that just might help me become a fan of this title as well, without immediatly trying to discredit me for not being a fan instantanously the minute I read about this new game.
Refrain yourself from jumping on people's throats who share a different view and opinion. If I come insulting this game by all means attack, but if I come politely asking questions, please put the gun down.
Errr, why are you still arguing? Your original post, which is what I was responding to, if you can remember that far back, was indeed self-contradictory. It did bash all the features of Vanguard except the housing. And you did not ask one single question in your original post, asking for further information. You stated various things as facts, and in other posts various people pointed out to you that they were not facts. Your post is titled 'Famous last words "This game is not for everyone" '.
You ended that post saying "Bottom line, I was looking forward to this game cause it had the first element Im looking for in a game (player houses) but is lacking all the other elements (skills based, solo friendly, player made economy, craftable "phat" items) so Im really dissappointed."
None of this led anyone, including Plano, who is now your biggest supporter, to think you were even considering playing the game. Plano himself said "bye" to you. Others suggested perhaps Warhammer. For you to now claim you were looking for info is just revisionism. You posted that you didn't like anything about the game based on a lot of research that you apparently did and additionally you didn't ask once in your post if any of that information you were posting was correct. So then I pointed out the internal inconsistency in what you were saying and Plano jumped in to defend your honor. After some back and forth with him and a final post from you, I let it go. Yet now you claim that all along all you wanted was more info. If so, you certainly have an odd way of going about it.
But anyway, this has gotten silly. You claim to have been misunderstood in the original post, you clarified it for me in a later post, I said, basically, "cool, great, let's go eat turkey" and then you jump on me again. Odd.
no, its been fun. im just messing with you. i think we all just kinda started off on the wrong foot, err....feet, errr.....w/e. lol. for me part, im sorry.
Originally posted by tomfred81 If you are truly looking for a game that is more solo oriented, than MMORPGs arent for you. There are plenty of single player RPGs out there-try Elder Scrolls 3 & 4 for instance. What differentiates these from the MMORPGs is the mass world of people in game.
So what you are saying is you want a single player RPG in a world of other people also going on solo? Doesn't make much sense. If you are saying that soloing should be just as accomadating as grouping, well again, thats not what an MMORPG is supposed to be....its an MMO.
Dead wrong.....the direction this market has to take to continue growing is to offer players a multi facet gaming experience from within the same game. Currently designers are struggling to balance solo, group, and raid content, as well as how to introduce PvP. In doing so they are focusing almost exclusively on the grind. You can grind the solo content, grind the group content, or grind the raid content. They still aren't thinking outside the box.
What they need to do is expand the solo content to include specific class quests along the lines of an RPG. That is, if your character is an assassin you go to the NPC assassin's guild and receive a quest to kill a mercenary leader in a dungeon. You equip your assassin and enter a solo experience zone in which the weapon/armor stats are modified to create a deadlier balance. In my example, lets say there are 3 sentries at the entrance to the room. Two of the sentries are one shot, one kill cloth armor, the third is in metal armor and shield, and can kill your assassin if you mess up. All solo experience NPCs are ungrouped. As the player you have to figure out how to either evade the sentries, or kill them without drawing them down on you, as you attempt to accomplish your mission. The sentries can even be having a conversation offering tidbits on where your target is. Read up on the "Greed" thread in the EQ2 forums for more quest detail, it's near the end. See Oblivion assassin quests for more detail of the how a class quest system can work. EQ 2 was close to this breakthrough with the class/subclass quests available at launch, they stepped back from the brink, however, and returned to the tried and true grind content for solo play. Don't tell me it can't work in a MMORPG, SOE has already done it quite nicely. However, being SOE they then proceeded to flush it down the toilet.
As for the raid content, every time someone joins a raid, regardless of level, they should receive a message that in doing so they have now consented to PvP. PvP will occur on the same server. In any area, they cannot grief solo/group players, and individuals cannot run amok and ruin a PvE players gaming experience. In exchange, the PvP character can still interact on the same server as PvE. Now, your level 70 raid members now have the added challenge that in camping the phat loot zone, another raid group may enter and contest them for the zone. It also allows the PC guild conflict, castle/town sieges, etc from the Korean MMORPGs to occur within the same game framework. However, any level characters can raid/PvP anywhere.
The point of this is that a gamer should be able to experience all three facets of a fantasy game from within the same game. Some days gamers log in and, for whatever reason, want to experience solo play, sometimes they log in and want to group with their friends, and sometimes they may just wish to raid and/or experience some PvP. Right now developers create the game around the grind, not around the entertainment experience. They mstakenly believe the secret to the entertainment experience is to make the grind more challenging. Instead, by offering a diverse entertainment experience, especially with a solo class quest system, they achieve replayability by encouraging players to experiment trying different facets. So, for example, when your assassin reaches level 70, each raid/PvP experience can be different based on other raid/PvP groups, or you can experience the different solo content quests of a thief type class.
Originally posted by thomas.hart The point brad is making is you will have fun playing the game solo. If you think having fun as solo means you will be better than ppl that work harder in raids/group then i think mmorpg are the wrong game for you.
Actually you have to put forth less effort in groups and raids than when solo. Soloers are usually the most skilled players since they must develop skills to survive whereas in a group or raid there are others to take up the slack usually and save or help you if you make a mistake.
Originally posted by BriarFox Originally posted by glim3mer "Bottom line, I was looking forward to this game cause it had the first element Im looking for in a game (player houses) but is lacking all the other elements (skills based, solo friendly, player made economy, craftable "phat" items) so Im really dissappointed."
I have posted before that I want to like skill based games because the customization sounds cool but I always find that I actually don't like playing skill based games. I really didn't like UO once I had others to compare it to and I absolutely hated AC1.
While EQ wasn't solo friendly by any definition it was not solo impossible once there was enough territory to support hundreds of soloers. I will be happy if Vanguard is the same as far as soloing goes. My guess is that folks who solo won't even realize what they are missing if they don't group. The soloer will be able to have a completely enjoyable in game life and will not feel like a second class citizen unless he is the type of asshole who just looks for things to bitch about.
As far as I can tell Vanguard will have a player made economy and very nice crafted gear (I hate the term Phat ).
As far as the title of the the thread, I think we will find as the MMOG industry grows, "not for everyone" games will take the lion share of the subscribers.
Sigil and Vanguard is just the beginning of a new wave in online games and the multiple ruleset servers. I know it has been done before by many games but Sigil is going to take it to an extreme.
PVE PVP FFA PVE w/ RP PVP FFA w/ RP PvE Ironman permadeath PVE with global auctions (yikes)
Point is that in the future the smart MMOG developer will have different servers that will appeal to very different tastes in game play style. So "This game is not for evryone" will be replaced with "this server is not for everyone." Hey Bro, you left out one!
Originally posted by anarchyart Originally posted by Valkaern Sorry, this is a bit off topic but there's something fundamentally wrong with this signature "--12 days to level 63 and 10 AA's, EQ is no harder or easier then WOW, get over the fact WoW is no easier then EQ. Many others leveled just as fast as I did on new servers. You leveled slowly because you lacked skills and the ability to do it quickly. No other player assisted me in leveling by PLing me or anything stupid like that and I didn't buy any items or pp!" 1: If you're levelling past 50 you're levelling on the *NEW* exp curve (or one of the many new xp curves), also you're levelling with many skills, abilities and hand-holding mechanics that weren't there on release. Initially you would not be reaching level 50 (which was the cap back then) in 12 days. So, yes, levelling in EQ was drastically harder than it was in WoW, whether you want to believe it or not, as you obviously weren't there before EQ bagan scaling down the risk & challenge involved weith levelling (something WoW never had itself at any point). Just needed to point that out for you so you can alter your sig as you see fit, I don't think anyone would argue that the current incarnation of EQ offers any real challenge or risk or time commitment (aside from raiding requiring time commitment obviously), but before it began imitating WoW to such disgusting degrees, it certainly was a challenge to level and took a lot longer due to extreme xp curves. Thanks
I have called him out on his sig many times. You should have seen what it used to say. He changed it to make it a bit more believable. Anyway, he is completely FOS and thanks for noticing. Sheesh, back in the day exp was so hard in EQ1 even grouped. Everyone grouped for hell levels LOL. Later In the Lake of Ill Omen zone they made it a hotspot zone so to speak without calling it that at first. You could get 3 levels in about 18 hours and we thought that was red hot exp compared to before the Kunark expansion and just getting to the LOIO was a long and dangerous journey.
Originally posted by tomfred81 If you are truly looking for a game that is more solo oriented, than MMORPGs arent for you. There are plenty of single player RPGs out there-try Elder Scrolls 3 & 4 for instance. What differentiates these from the MMORPGs is the mass world of people in game.
So what you are saying is you want a single player RPG in a world of other people also going on solo? Doesn't make much sense. If you are saying that soloing should be just as accomadating as grouping, well again, thats not what an MMORPG is supposed to be....its an MMO.
All MMO means is there's lots of people online at the same time playing the same game. That's all. It doesn't mean grouping only or soloing only or raiding only. We are free to create what we want and we don't have to be pigeon holed into any one type of play. Devs who get this will have the most successful mmorpgs imo.
Originally posted by spiritglow Originally posted by anarchyart Originally posted by Valkaern Sorry, this is a bit off topic but there's something fundamentally wrong with this signature "--12 days to level 63 and 10 AA's, EQ is no harder or easier then WOW, get over the fact WoW is no easier then EQ. Many others leveled just as fast as I did on new servers. You leveled slowly because you lacked skills and the ability to do it quickly. No other player assisted me in leveling by PLing me or anything stupid like that and I didn't buy any items or pp!" 1: If you're levelling past 50 you're levelling on the *NEW* exp curve (or one of the many new xp curves), also you're levelling with many skills, abilities and hand-holding mechanics that weren't there on release. Initially you would not be reaching level 50 (which was the cap back then) in 12 days. So, yes, levelling in EQ was drastically harder than it was in WoW, whether you want to believe it or not, as you obviously weren't there before EQ bagan scaling down the risk & challenge involved weith levelling (something WoW never had itself at any point). Just needed to point that out for you so you can alter your sig as you see fit, I don't think anyone would argue that the current incarnation of EQ offers any real challenge or risk or time commitment (aside from raiding requiring time commitment obviously), but before it began imitating WoW to such disgusting degrees, it certainly was a challenge to level and took a lot longer due to extreme xp curves. Thanks
I have called him out on his sig many times. You should have seen what it used to say. He changed it to make it a bit more believable. Anyway, he is completely FOS and thanks for noticing. Sheesh, back in the day exp was so hard in EQ1 even grouped. Everyone grouped for hell levels LOL. Later In the Lake of Ill Omen zone they made it a hotspot zone so to speak without calling it that at first. You could get 3 levels in about 18 hours and we thought that was red hot exp compared to before the Kunark expansion and just getting to the LOIO was a long and dangerous journey.
SPiritglow I agree. I quit EQ in the beginning because of how hard it was to level. I would just start to get somewhere and die and lose a whole days worth of XP. I laugh now, but it caused a lot of headaches.
Originally posted by PlanoMM well, you will be missed. bb then. not that youll believe me and i dont feel like going into this on every new topic, but its not going to be raid and group only. SOME of the phat loot will only be available to crafters and diplomats.
You are either ignoring the fact that crafting will be group dependent for ingredients, or are oblivious to it. The Op is not interested in forced grouping, which is what Vanguard's crafting system requires to make the better items.
I agree with all the OP said except the part about being able to change your character's skillsets without rerolling and without a penalty. I don't like that at all. That's too easy. In order to do that, you should have to train any new skills chosen from 0 ability, not just interchange skills. A true skill system does not give you credit for skills trained that are not used or discarded.
Brad & friends may not even realise all the luck they got.
See, for example, HERE, on a NEUTRAL site. They got a LOT of coverage. Why does Vanguard show first when you have other titles with the same release date (Q1 2007)? This is not random. This site LOOOOOVES MMOs. And the mods here want Vanguard to be an amazing success.
However, I think Brad is like a spoiled Brat. Some days he say solo/grouping will be awesome, some other he say to walk away since the game isn't build for soloers/groupers. This is the spoiled Brat syndrom. Bad Brat Brad the spoiled?
Some peoples might be tired to see me coming and repeating that a raid-free server would be awesome, but don't fool yourself, this is a favor for any game to get such attention, especially that sometimes, I wonder if Sigil is even worthy of it...but well...until BioWare MMO's come out, we need a PH! And to have a good PH, it at least need a raid-free server! Niak niak niak.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by thomas.hart The point brad is making is you will have fun playing the game solo. If you think having fun as solo means you will be better than ppl that work harder in raids/group then i think mmorpg are the wrong game for you.
The problem is that soloers and small group oriented players often work harder than raiders, but can't get as good items because of the mechanics of the game, limiting the best drops to raids and making those items non tradeable. Don't assume raiding requires more hard work. It can actually be easier to mow down a mob with more people backing you up.
Originally posted by viciousexe How the heck could any game be for everyone? One of the main things they've said is that it is solo friendly and that crafting will be very in-depth and important. How could you read up and not find that?
How can a game that has forced dependency to gain ingredients because of the fact that one must be in "crafting " mode in order to even get some ingredients to drop, and therefore have to depend on at least another person to be the adventurer, be considered solo friendly?
You need to read up more on the separate spheres and how they work.
How can a game that has forced dependency to gain ingredients because of the fact that one must be in "crafting " mode in order to even get some ingredients to drop, and therefore have to depend on at least another person to be the adventurer, be considered solo friendly?
You need to read up more on the separate spheres and how they work.
Hmmm, this is not the spin I am getting when I read up on the spheres. My interpretation is that you can be an adventurer, a crafter, and a diplomat, changing spheres whenever you wish to engage in a different facet of the game. Thus, if you are in a crafting sphere, and need an adventuring drop, you just convert from crafting mode to adventurer mode and go out and quest for that needed item. When you want to buy property, you can switch to the diplomat mode and negotiate a puchase. Just my interpretation of the spheres.
How can a game that has forced dependency to gain ingredients because of the fact that one must be in "crafting " mode in order to even get some ingredients to drop, and therefore have to depend on at least another person to be the adventurer, be considered solo friendly?
You need to read up more on the separate spheres and how they work.
Hmmm, this is not the spin I am getting when I read up on the spheres. My interpretation is that you can be an adventurer, a crafter, and a diplomat, changing spheres whenever you wish to engage in a different facet of the game. Thus, if you are in a crafting sphere, and need an adventuring drop, you just convert from crafting mode to adventurer mode and go out and quest for that needed item. When you want to buy property, you can switch to the diplomat mode and negotiate a puchase. Just my interpretation of the spheres.
exactly, thats what i got out of it as well. and as a point of reference, ive read everything put out by Brad and Co.
and Anofayle, youre right, Brad and Co. are incredibly lucky to have this much coverage.
Originally posted by spiritglow Actually you have to put forth less effort in groups and raids than when solo. Soloers are usually the most skilled players since they must develop skills to survive whereas in a group or raid there are others to take up the slack usually and save or help you if you make a mistake.
Spiritglow
Not sure what game you play but my experience has not been like this at all. I have been in 60+ man raids (EQ) where every person is performing their task perfectly, like one well oiled machine. We beat T zek ( I think that's it, the one where you have to beat 2 of the zek brothers, huge pain in the butt but we finally did it) and that took our entire guild hours and everyone did their job immaculately.
In my experience if someone tries to phone it in, everyone in the raid knows because they usually wipe. Maybe WoW raids are different?
Originally posted by viciousexe How the heck could any game be for everyone? One of the main things they've said is that it is solo friendly and that crafting will be very in-depth and important. How could you read up and not find that?
How can a game that has forced dependency to gain ingredients because of the fact that one must be in "crafting " mode in order to even get some ingredients to drop, and therefore have to depend on at least another person to be the adventurer, be considered solo friendly?
You need to read up more on the separate spheres and how they work.
Forced dependancy? Ugh, quit whining. You don't know what you're talking about. It is you who needs to read up.
Here are some quotes from Silius, the main crafting/harvesting designer for Vanguard which prove it will be anti-soloing and require dependency.
There may be a situation where you have to go to the bottom of the dungeon in order to forge a powerful blade. While this is happening spirits spawn to stop you so your adventuring friends must hold them off while you try to complete the recipe.
As I have said multiple times there will be interdependence but it is not required to advance. Will grouping with others or getting others to make items be needed to produce valuable products? Yes, if this disheartens you all then I am sorry but it is a part of creating a crafting community.
You are still dependent on others for a portion of something much like they are dependent on you, you are not crafting the mighty sword of pain for you the crafter you are making it for adventurers and as such a weapon of that degree of power requires an effort from more then just one person.
Will you be able to acquire all recipes through solo play? No as this is not a solo game. The more people working together to accomplish a goal the greater the reward. Running to the bottom of the dark dungeon to forge the ancient blade of death is not something you are doing solo nor is the recipe something you are going to pick up from a vendor. Now you can discover a rare recipe through experimentation which is a solo experience but if you desire to do it all you will not be able to do that solo.
I hope that this answers your questions from both posts. If you want to craft the absolute best items then you will have to participate with others whether it be a group of adventurers going down into a cave or a diplomat getting you access to a new area there will be recipes and crafting stations that you cant just walk to by yourself at your leisure.
I understand your desire to be able to acquire all ingredients and recipes through solo play but I am sorry we are not making a single player game we are making a community building product and as such solo play will not net you all the shinys.
You will need to group for some recipes.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
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Your still insisting that I self-contradicted myself, and that I bashed pretty much every feature of the game even after taking the time to specially explain it to you.
So far, according to you:
-I contradicted myself,
- I bashed almost every feature of the game,
- You told people not to believe me
- and you claimed my post to be troll-ish.
Thats the clarification, I know some people are big time supporters of game that are coming out soon, but you need to lay off from judging every word that a someone new who just found out about the game might say. We get it, you like the game and will support it, but allow me the oppurtinity to discover the game features by asking questions, by stating my opinions about certain game features and attempting to reach out to other people who might know more about the game then me, who might be able to give me certain insights of the game that just might help me become a fan of this title as well, without immediatly trying to discredit me for not being a fan instantanously the minute I read about this new game.
Refrain yourself from jumping on people's throats who share a different view and opinion. If I come insulting this game by all means attack, but if I come politely asking questions, please put the gun down.
______________________________
Your still insisting that I self-contradicted myself, and that I bashed pretty much every feature of the game even after taking the time to specially explain it to you.
So far, according to you:
-I contradicted myself,
- I bashed almost every feature of the game,
- You told people not to believe me
- and you claimed my post to be troll-ish.
Thats the clarification, I know some people are big time supporters of game that are coming out soon, but you need to lay off from judging every word that a someone new who just found out about the game might say. We get it, you like the game and will support it, but allow me the oppurtinity to discover the game features by asking questions, by stating my opinions about certain game features and attempting to reach out to other people who might know more about the game then me, who might be able to give me certain insights of the game that just might help me become a fan of this title as well, without immediatly trying to discredit me for not being a fan instantanously the minute I read about this new game.
Refrain yourself from jumping on people's throats who share a different view and opinion. If I come insulting this game by all means attack, but if I come politely asking questions, please put the gun down.
Errr, why are you still arguing? Your original post, which is what I was responding to, if you can remember that far back, was indeed self-contradictory. It did bash all the features of Vanguard except the housing. And you did not ask one single question in your original post, asking for further information. You stated various things as facts, and in other posts various people pointed out to you that they were not facts. Your post is titled 'Famous last words "This game is not for everyone" '.
You ended that post saying "Bottom line, I was looking forward to this game cause it had the first element Im looking for in a game (player houses) but is lacking all the other elements (skills based, solo friendly, player made economy, craftable "phat" items) so Im really dissappointed."
None of this led anyone, including Plano, who is now your biggest supporter, to think you were even considering playing the game. Plano himself said "bye" to you. Others suggested perhaps Warhammer. For you to now claim you were looking for info is just revisionism. You posted that you didn't like anything about the game based on a lot of research that you apparently did and additionally you didn't ask once in your post if any of that information you were posting was correct. So then I pointed out the internal inconsistency in what you were saying and Plano jumped in to defend your honor. After some back and forth with him and a final post from you, I let it go. Yet now you claim that all along all you wanted was more info. If so, you certainly have an odd way of going about it.
But anyway, this has gotten silly. You claim to have been misunderstood in the original post, you clarified it for me in a later post, I said, basically, "cool, great, let's go eat turkey" and then you jump on me again. Odd.
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dumbass, lol, j/k
no, its been fun. im just messing with you. i think we all just kinda started off on the wrong foot, err....feet, errr.....w/e. lol. for me part, im sorry.
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Dead wrong.....the direction this market has to take to continue growing is to offer players a multi facet gaming experience from within the same game. Currently designers are struggling to balance solo, group, and raid content, as well as how to introduce PvP. In doing so they are focusing almost exclusively on the grind. You can grind the solo content, grind the group content, or grind the raid content. They still aren't thinking outside the box.
What they need to do is expand the solo content to include specific class quests along the lines of an RPG. That is, if your character is an assassin you go to the NPC assassin's guild and receive a quest to kill a mercenary leader in a dungeon. You equip your assassin and enter a solo experience zone in which the weapon/armor stats are modified to create a deadlier balance. In my example, lets say there are 3 sentries at the entrance to the room. Two of the sentries are one shot, one kill cloth armor, the third is in metal armor and shield, and can kill your assassin if you mess up. All solo experience NPCs are ungrouped. As the player you have to figure out how to either evade the sentries, or kill them without drawing them down on you, as you attempt to accomplish your mission. The sentries can even be having a conversation offering tidbits on where your target is. Read up on the "Greed" thread in the EQ2 forums for more quest detail, it's near the end. See Oblivion assassin quests for more detail of the how a class quest system can work. EQ 2 was close to this breakthrough with the class/subclass quests available at launch, they stepped back from the brink, however, and returned to the tried and true grind content for solo play. Don't tell me it can't work in a MMORPG, SOE has already done it quite nicely. However, being SOE they then proceeded to flush it down the toilet.
As for the raid content, every time someone joins a raid, regardless of level, they should receive a message that in doing so they have now consented to PvP. PvP will occur on the same server. In any area, they cannot grief solo/group players, and individuals cannot run amok and ruin a PvE players gaming experience. In exchange, the PvP character can still interact on the same server as PvE. Now, your level 70 raid members now have the added challenge that in camping the phat loot zone, another raid group may enter and contest them for the zone. It also allows the PC guild conflict, castle/town sieges, etc from the Korean MMORPGs to occur within the same game framework. However, any level characters can raid/PvP anywhere.
The point of this is that a gamer should be able to experience all three facets of a fantasy game from within the same game. Some days gamers log in and, for whatever reason, want to experience solo play, sometimes they log in and want to group with their friends, and sometimes they may just wish to raid and/or experience some PvP. Right now developers create the game around the grind, not around the entertainment experience. They mstakenly believe the secret to the entertainment experience is to make the grind more challenging. Instead, by offering a diverse entertainment experience, especially with a solo class quest system, they achieve replayability by encouraging players to experiment trying different facets. So, for example, when your assassin reaches level 70, each raid/PvP experience can be different based on other raid/PvP groups, or you can experience the different solo content quests of a thief type class.
Sorry for double post
Spiritglow
I have posted before that I want to like skill based games because the customization sounds cool but I always find that I actually don't like playing skill based games. I really didn't like UO once I had others to compare it to and I absolutely hated AC1.
While EQ wasn't solo friendly by any definition it was not solo impossible once there was enough territory to support hundreds of soloers. I will be happy if Vanguard is the same as far as soloing goes. My guess is that folks who solo won't even realize what they are missing if they don't group. The soloer will be able to have a completely enjoyable in game life and will not feel like a second class citizen unless he is the type of asshole who just looks for things to bitch about.
As far as I can tell Vanguard will have a player made economy and very nice crafted gear (I hate the term Phat ).
As far as the title of the the thread, I think we will find as the MMOG industry grows, "not for everyone" games will take the lion share of the subscribers.
Sigil and Vanguard is just the beginning of a new wave in online games and the multiple ruleset servers. I know it has been done before by many games but Sigil is going to take it to an extreme.
PVEPVP FFA
PVE w/ RP
PVP FFA w/ RP
PvE Ironman permadeath
PVE with global auctions (yikes)
Point is that in the future the smart MMOG developer will have different servers that will appeal to very different tastes in game play style. So "This game is not for evryone" will be replaced with "this server is not for everyone."
Hey Bro, you left out one!
PVE No Raiding (YEAH BABY!)
Spiritglow
Sheesh, back in the day exp was so hard in EQ1 even grouped. Everyone grouped for hell levels LOL. Later In the Lake of Ill Omen zone they made it a hotspot zone so to speak without calling it that at first. You could get 3 levels in about 18 hours and we thought that was red hot exp compared to before the Kunark expansion and just getting to the LOIO was a long and dangerous journey.
SPiritglow
Spiritglow
Sheesh, back in the day exp was so hard in EQ1 even grouped. Everyone grouped for hell levels LOL. Later In the Lake of Ill Omen zone they made it a hotspot zone so to speak without calling it that at first. You could get 3 levels in about 18 hours and we thought that was red hot exp compared to before the Kunark expansion and just getting to the LOIO was a long and dangerous journey.
SPiritglow
I agree. I quit EQ in the beginning because of how hard it was to level. I would just start to get somewhere and die and lose a whole days worth of XP. I laugh now, but it caused a lot of headaches.
You are either ignoring the fact that crafting will be group dependent for ingredients, or are oblivious to it. The Op is not interested in forced grouping, which is what Vanguard's crafting system requires to make the better items.
I agree with all the OP said except the part about being able to change your character's skillsets without rerolling and without a penalty. I don't like that at all. That's too easy. In order to do that, you should have to train any new skills chosen from 0 ability, not just interchange skills. A true skill system does not give you credit for skills trained that are not used or discarded.
Brad & friends may not even realise all the luck they got.
See, for example, HERE, on a NEUTRAL site. They got a LOT of coverage. Why does Vanguard show first when you have other titles with the same release date (Q1 2007)? This is not random. This site LOOOOOVES MMOs. And the mods here want Vanguard to be an amazing success.
However, I think Brad is like a spoiled Brat. Some days he say solo/grouping will be awesome, some other he say to walk away since the game isn't build for soloers/groupers. This is the spoiled Brat syndrom. Bad Brat Brad the spoiled?
Some peoples might be tired to see me coming and repeating that a raid-free server would be awesome, but don't fool yourself, this is a favor for any game to get such attention, especially that sometimes, I wonder if Sigil is even worthy of it...but well...until BioWare MMO's come out, we need a PH! And to have a good PH, it at least need a raid-free server! Niak niak niak.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
How can a game that has forced dependency to gain ingredients because of the fact that one must be in "crafting " mode in order to even get some ingredients to drop, and therefore have to depend on at least another person to be the adventurer, be considered solo friendly?
You need to read up more on the separate spheres and how they work.
How can a game that has forced dependency to gain ingredients because of the fact that one must be in "crafting " mode in order to even get some ingredients to drop, and therefore have to depend on at least another person to be the adventurer, be considered solo friendly?
You need to read up more on the separate spheres and how they work.
Hmmm, this is not the spin I am getting when I read up on the spheres. My interpretation is that you can be an adventurer, a crafter, and a diplomat, changing spheres whenever you wish to engage in a different facet of the game. Thus, if you are in a crafting sphere, and need an adventuring drop, you just convert from crafting mode to adventurer mode and go out and quest for that needed item. When you want to buy property, you can switch to the diplomat mode and negotiate a puchase. Just my interpretation of the spheres.
How can a game that has forced dependency to gain ingredients because of the fact that one must be in "crafting " mode in order to even get some ingredients to drop, and therefore have to depend on at least another person to be the adventurer, be considered solo friendly?
You need to read up more on the separate spheres and how they work.
Hmmm, this is not the spin I am getting when I read up on the spheres. My interpretation is that you can be an adventurer, a crafter, and a diplomat, changing spheres whenever you wish to engage in a different facet of the game. Thus, if you are in a crafting sphere, and need an adventuring drop, you just convert from crafting mode to adventurer mode and go out and quest for that needed item. When you want to buy property, you can switch to the diplomat mode and negotiate a puchase. Just my interpretation of the spheres.
exactly, thats what i got out of it as well. and as a point of reference, ive read everything put out by Brad and Co.
and Anofayle, youre right, Brad and Co. are incredibly lucky to have this much coverage.
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Not sure what game you play but my experience has not been like this at all. I have been in 60+ man raids (EQ) where every person is performing their task perfectly, like one well oiled machine. We beat T zek ( I think that's it, the one where you have to beat 2 of the zek brothers, huge pain in the butt but we finally did it) and that took our entire guild hours and everyone did their job immaculately.
In my experience if someone tries to phone it in, everyone in the raid knows because they usually wipe. Maybe WoW raids are different?
How can a game that has forced dependency to gain ingredients because of the fact that one must be in "crafting " mode in order to even get some ingredients to drop, and therefore have to depend on at least another person to be the adventurer, be considered solo friendly?
You need to read up more on the separate spheres and how they work.
Forced dependancy? Ugh, quit whining. You don't know what you're talking about. It is you who needs to read up.
/agrees
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Here are some quotes from Silius, the main crafting/harvesting designer for Vanguard which prove it will be anti-soloing and require dependency.
There may be a situation where you have to go to the bottom of the dungeon in order to forge a powerful blade. While this is happening spirits spawn to stop you so your adventuring friends must hold them off while you try to complete the recipe.
As I have said multiple times there will be interdependence but it is not required to advance. Will grouping with others or getting others to make items be needed to produce valuable products? Yes, if this disheartens you all then I am sorry but it is a part of creating a crafting community.
You are still dependent on others for a portion of something much like they are dependent on you, you are not crafting the mighty sword of pain for you the crafter you are making it for adventurers and as such a weapon of that degree of power requires an effort from more then just one person.
Will you be able to acquire all recipes through solo play? No as this is not a solo game. The more people working together to accomplish a goal the greater the reward. Running to the bottom of the dark dungeon to forge the ancient blade of death is not something you are doing solo nor is the recipe something you are going to pick up from a vendor. Now you can discover a rare recipe through experimentation which is a solo experience but if you desire to do it all you will not be able to do that solo.
I hope that this answers your questions from both posts. If you want to craft the absolute best items then you will have to participate with others whether it be a group of adventurers going down into a cave or a diplomat getting you access to a new area there will be recipes and crafting stations that you cant just walk to by yourself at your leisure.
I understand your desire to be able to acquire all ingredients and recipes through solo play but I am sorry we are not making a single player game we are making a community building product and as such solo play will not net you all the shinys.
You will need to group for some recipes.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh