Originally posted by brostyn Society will never find obesity attractive.
Maybe modern society won't for a while, but (as been pointed out in some other posts) in previous eras where food was hard to come by, having a good amount of padding was seen as extremely desirable because it showed you as better off and more healthy than those skinny people around you. Look at the paintings of the Old Masters or even fertility goddess statues - the females have big stomachs, probably big pendulous boobs and big hips. Finding obesity unattractive is a more modern construct.
More on-topic, I think for the longest time computer games had to come up with skimpy girls in their artwork because 1) the target market was teenage boys and 2) the graphics were nowhere near the level of the box art, so they needed something to fire the imagination. This is less of an issue now and I believe we are starting to see games and MMOGs adjust to fit the changing market demographic.
Moving forward, I expect to see more customisation in character creation - City of Heroes / Villians really sets the benchmark here, with a huge amount of character flexibility. However, this will only get over the surface level issue - it's less an issue of sexism than unwanted sexualisation within MMOGs that occurs to female characters. THAT is a much bigger issue and one that only partly ties into what clothes female avatars can choose in-game.
One thing I noticed that no one seemed to remark upon in this, is that video games, of any genre, are male dominated. Is that a bad thing? NOPE! It's just a thing... there are many other hobbies out there that are female dominated. I mean really, when was the last time that you played a game where women out numbered men 10 to 1? But it's such a common thing in most MMOs for women to be seriously out numbered.
But, I personally believe, that because games have a much larger male client base, any good marketing department will slant their style to a male preference, yet add in enough qualities to attract women as well. Case in point : All those sexy female characters on the box covers are sword slinging, or magic throwing heroines.... not in a kitchen baking bread! I for one, look at the heroine on the covers and think, "hmm... I can have a good fighting character, nice!" I don't think, "wow, all the boys will love me for my pixels...er I mean boobs".
As for no men being portrayed in skimpy genital showing clothing... well, I dunno about any other ladies out there... but PLEASE, don't try to hang your willy out to get me all hot and bothered! I find the hard chested, tight rumped characters to be much more sexy... and a pixelated man decked out in powerful looking armour has much more of a swoon factor for me, then some guy in a G-String! We women don't want to see your junk, we want to see the whole package, preferably wrapped up enough that it teases our minds. Tight shirts any one? mmmm!
Yes, there IS sexism in games, but the look of the avatars is not it. It's the players that make the sexism, and the anonymity that lets people feel safe acting that way in "public". That goes either way, from the girls I see begging for cash/weapons/items because "I'm not as good as a guy!" (yes, many of these are REAL women as well as fakes) to the men who won't follow a female guild leader. We play games to have some relaxation, with out having to worry about getting fired for saying what we REALLY think. And yet, those extreme examples are rare. Oh, and ladies... if you don't like how you're treated in a game... then stop telling every one who you really are behind the keys. When some one asks you "So, are you really a girl?" just say "does it matter?"
When I read "men are victims too" I almost fell out of my chair. Men are in now way pressured as much as women to maintain that certain look. As someone already stated I believe. You had some great points on the fact that the way society portrays women is damaging to young womens self esteem. However I don't know how many girls look at a wood elf and say "Oh I've got to stop eating now." I see the points you're trying to make but I don't think its so much of a big deal in video games. In society however, with ads, commercials, and all of societys pressures young women have a lot to deal with that young men do not and it is definately a problem that needs to be evaluated.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
This is too big of a subject to discuss really. Sex sells, and most importantly, everyone allows themselves to let it sell. Take Brad Pitt for example, most women want him and many men want to be him, why? He is sexy, he is after all one of the sexist men alive, but is he really sexy. He is what many men are held to as a standard in many womens eyes; in fact many famous men who women consider sexy are what many men are held to as a standard and the same for women in regards to famous women. So lets look at Brad Pitt, is he really sexy, well I myself am better looking then Brad Pitt, facially I am, and my physical body is better shaped and toned then his is, I am 6, 5, I do indeed match that standard set for what a sexy man is, in fact I surpass it, I am frankly beautiful, I am also very successful and financially secure, but even so, does that make me sexy? Well in fact it does not, why? Because even though I do surpass the standard of what is sexy, I am still not him.
If you take Brads fame away, you take his money, you take away his make up people who do him up every day to go out in public, you take away his publicists who makes and pushes out the perception who him, you take it all way from Brad and you put him on a street corner, is he sexy? Well the truth is, no not really, actually he is rather homely looking. Take any famous women, take away her fame, take away her liposucks, take away her make up people, take away all the millions of dollars she spends on cosmetic surgery, and then put her on a street corner, is she really that sexy guys, truth be known, actually she would scare the shit out of you. Its all a lie, it is fake, what makes them sexy is what they are perceived as being sexy to you. People get sad, depressed, emotion problem arise, physically problems arise, some kill themselves and even many more starve themselves to death to reach what they think is the standard they themselves feel they need to be.
The problem is, even if you do reach that standard and pass it, you still can not reach it in your mind, it dose not exists, its not real, and people know its fake, but nonetheless, they can not let themselves be happy with themselves. Sex sells, because people want to be better then others, they want to be better then themselves, no one wants to admit that, but it is true. Sex sells everything about sex sells and can make you money. Is it wrong, yes it is, but then again, if anyone really did care, then it would not work, but thats the point, it does work, everyone loves it, and they all crave it. Sex sells, but whose to blame is it really the media, TV, Movies, Games, the people behind it all, or are you to blame, the average everyday person, who buys and enjoys everything that is fed to them about sex, if you dont feel it is right and it is wrong, then stop it, because after all the bottom line is money, and as of yet, the only thing sex has done in regards to money, is its made more of it. Bring it on down now.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
The funniest thing is how better treatet you are if you make a female character, instead of a male on. It is easy to see how the other players react more "flirty" when you are a female. I dont usually make female characters, but I have tried that too (and I am a guy by the way). I cant complain either because I recognize that boy-behavior in myself too, even though I'm not thinking about it a the moment. Girl are just as sex obsessed as boys are (at least my girl-friend), but they are not showing it in the same way that boys do. Anyway, there is nothing we can do about it, sex is a basic instinkt.
The reason MMO characters are (for the most part) idealized is exactly that - it's the ideal. By definition, people aspire to what is held to be ideal. Look at Warcraft - why do you think there are twice as many players in the Alliance as in the Horde? Because that's what people want to be! Both men AND women. It's the same reason why they put Kira Knightly on magazing covers instead of Mo'nique. . . It's not a conspiracy of men trying to make women into anorexics. It's simple economics. More people will buy the magazine with a thin woman on the cover - therefore they put thin women on the covers of magazines. In fact, women are, if anything, worse than men in this regard. Compare the cover of a woman's magazine - say Cosmo or Vogue - to the cover of a men's magazine like Stuff or Maxim. Month after month, the woman on the cover of the men's mag will be about 15-20 pounds heavier. Every culture, from the stone age on up, has had an ideal standards for male and female beauty. The idea that these ideals can be harmful, however, is a new concept. Is our 21st century concept of beauty unatainable? Perhaps, but it's us who created it. Blaming "the media" is a cop-out, because "the media" is only selling us what we want to buy.
I think it's important that the original editorial points out the silly double standard that exists for so-called "harmful" images in the media. Any man who feels insecure with his body because of the bluging biceps of his WoW avatar is a complete and total tool. And I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb there by saying that. However, why is it so obviously silly for men and, at the same time, a huge issue of concern for women? Women, in my opinion, should be held to the same standards as men. Orthodox feminism has created a horrible double standard - women are supposed to be strong-minded and independent, and yet they are supposed to feel like victims when they look at the cover of a magazine. Which is it? Are women emotionally delicate flowers that need to be protected from the big, bad world or are they free-thinking adults, capable of handling life on their own? If you can be made to feel genuine self-loathing by looking at an idealized video game avatar, then you have deeper issues to deal with. Young women need to be raised with a sense of what is and isn't real, and what is and isn't truely important. More importantly, they need to be taught to have a strong enough sense of themselves so they can withstand the basic pressures of everyday life.
Originally posted by Greyface In fact, women are, if anything, worse than men in this regard. Compare the cover of a woman's magazine - say Cosmo or Vogue - to the cover of a men's magazine like Stuff or Maxim. Month after month, the woman on the cover of the men's mag will be about 15-20 pounds heavier.
Yeah, 15-20 pounds of boobs.
Huge breasts in video games is just an extension of what popular culture is ramming down societies throats. Teenage girls are eating it up too. I was in the gym the other day and I saw a 17 year old girl (I know because I asked her) with a boob job. She looked amazing, but it was sad. This beautiful 17 year old girl who felt she wasn't good enough the way god made her.
The porn industry is leaking into popular culture like never before and you know who is at fault? We are. We vote for this crap with our buying dollars and it is exactly the same in the video game industry.
I don't vote for this crap with my buying dollars, but it seems it is everywhere now, you just can't avoid it.
I like this article. I feel that new mmos should start pushing for a slider system when it comes to character creation. Its time to get rid of the whole "Ideal" man and woman and let players create whatever they want.
We still belive the ideal man and woman is what we see in games now but in all honesty, the gamer hasnt been given the option to make much else, never given the option to make a tall, short, fat or skinny. Farthest games go is usually old or young.
Hopefully new MMOs will go that extra mile and stray away from preset body types and allow players more freedom when it comes to their character, and lets see if everyone finds the same look appealing when given the chance to do more.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Has everyone lost sight of reality...or lack of reality. These are games, an escape. From the beginning of recorded history the heros and gods of stories were described as "perfect", "handsome", "beutiful". If Homer had to worry about how it would be thought of politically when he wrote about Aphrodite or Helen of Troy, the Odessy would have never been written. Egyptian hieroglyphs portrayed the people as physically perfect, this was their writing. Comic books have always portrayed their heros as better than perfect. If you think back on most fiction books, the protagonist is rarely "ugly" and the antagonist is many times portayed as less than perfect in the physical department. Why? Because people want, and have always wanted, to take themselves out of reality for a while, escape and enjoy themselves. Political correctness is making us question everything, down to our entertainment, it's a shame we can't just enjoy what is in front of us for what it is without stamping it politically correct, incorrect, offensive, sexist, demeaning, or whatever else.
I personally go into the game world as a fun escape from reality just like alot of other people do. I usually don't spend alot of time looking closely at other peoples' avatars, I usually do look more at the armor they have and the weapon they wield. That being said, I do however like to look pretty in the game world as far as hairstyle, skin, facial and body features go because it is just another part of the fantasy fun. I am female in RL and average looking and yes I would love to look like Angelina Jolie, but it isn't happening lol. So when I am in the fantasy realm I would like to look like the fantasy me. If other people don't like it thats fine, its what I think of it that counts. Fantasy game = Fantasy avatar = fun for me. This is just my opinion. I don't see it as being sexist in any way, just plain fantasy fun.
Originally posted by berdoingg You spell out the problem with your own article in the first half of your article. Yes, men are are as stereotypically portrayed in games as women, but men don't tend to have the same body-image pressures as women. Men, on the whole, don't feel that images in the media force them to change their eating habits in unhealthy ways or harm themselves physically or mentally.
Also, the way men and women perceive images of the opposite sex differs. Have you ever seen a group of female players clustered and whooping around a dancing male character?
I don't think the problems and pressures applied by games weigh in with anywhere like the same pressure as TV, movies and magazines, but the look of characters are definitely designed to cater to the male protion of the audience (which, considering the percentages involved, is hardly a surprise)
But to cry "Men are discriminated against too!' seems a bit weak. You aren't. The seriousness of prejudice has to be measured in the amount of risk of consequences that can occur. I'm pretty sure you'll be OK fella!
I would humbly disagree on some points you raise. But I do agree in part that perhaps women are more overtly discriminated against, and the sexism is perhaps much more readily visible regarding women.
I for one have seen female characters whooping at a half-naked dancing elf. Though it is fair to say that these people could easily be men behind the screen.
But there is an alternate side to sexism, and men are discriminated against. Have you ever heard the saying, "The clothes make the man"? Perhaps men are not so quickly discriminated against due to our looks, but we are just as quickly judged as women are on apperance. In reality, I have long hair, and tend to dress casual. But I am just as quickly judged as being scruffy, or a hippy even. Just as easily judged as a woman is for wearing a short skirt and being being immediately seen as a slut.
Varying levels of seriousness aside, we are all discriminated against according to society's ideals, in some form or another.
Korvass brings up a good point here, it's not always about the physical aspects of how a person looks, it's also the way they dress that draws a person's attention.
The only difference I see in how I interact in game with scruffy looking guys or scantily clad females is that I'm more tolerant of them ( depending on how they act) than those I see in real life.
Here is a new concept why not make the character Fully customisable that way we can all make our char our own fantasy person weight height and so on you will find most will choose to make their selves with abs of steel buns of steel yet not so overly skinny that one feels like a spokes model for some magazine or a sex idol there are a few but most of mens that ive met worry more about their male anotomy which isnt ever protreyed in games that height but thats just my opinion and we all have one and our own just a thought
yeah in ryzom you can make huge breasts, or board breasts, you can also make l;arge chars in the waist or skinny rails, you can also make the faces really fraky or really pretty, i like a well rounded option to my toons
Originally posted by berdoingg The seriousness of prejudice has to be measured in the amount of risk of consequences that can occur. I'm pretty sure you'll be OK fella!
I'm not so sure.
Men are about three times more likely than women to die in their teens to mid-twenties and the two leading causes of death in these cases are suicide, and accidents. Which is, ironically, the same demographic that encompasses most of the MMORPG gaming public.
Now don't mistake me for Thompson. I'm not saying that violence in video games causes violent death, and suicide. What I am saying though is that violence, danger, and hazardous lifestyle choices is a large part of what society says is "masculine." We praise heroes on the screen and TV who use violence, or participate in violence, and come back unharmed, who are almost always male. We praise heroes who fight and die in the line of duty, like police, fire, and military, who are almost always male. Girls dig the guys in fast cars or bikes who race on back roads. Remember the song, "you have to be a football hero to get along with the beautiful gals?"
It is because the culture somehow thinks it is appropriate for men to kill themselves, and eachother to make people happy, and it is not a suprise that that young men and teens are killing themselves, and eachother in disproportionally large numbers. Working to death for respect, hazarding death for respect, and causing death for respect.
It seems to me that the male sexism in the MMOs has less to do with the avatars, and more to do with the things the avatars do: which are generally, fight, kill, and die. It seems almost every MMO is centered around the expectation that young men will be doing these things, most likely to eachother, which is a misrepresentation.
Young men and teen men do fight, kill, and die in larger proportions than others, but perhaps that is due to the fact that the culture equates violence with masculinity, and peacefulness with weakness. The truth be told though is that the vast majority of men are not as violent as the culture makes them out to be, and like to build, rather than destroy. Violence is a last resort in men, and not a first response. Yet we have a disproportionate emphasis on destruction in MMOs, and an underemphasis on things like tradeskills, crafting, and other things that help build virtual communities.
Again, don't mistake me for Thompson. I am not saying that the game violence causes real violence. What I am saying is that the MMO genre exploits cheap generalizations of masculinity just as it exploits cheap generalizations of female stereotypes. It is just that when feminists look at sexism, they have the tendency to see it in terms of the avatars only, and not what the avatars are actually doing. However, I would argue that the stereotypical portrayal of masculinity is just as strongly asserted, and can be equally detrimental, if not moreso in the case of young men.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
This was a very good article and I"m not going to dispute anything said in it. I totally agree that the males and females are both idealized in games and that it's not really a bad thing. I do, however, think the writer missed a big point of why so many think that sexism is blatant in the characters, not by body build, but by how they are dressed.
In too many RPG's and MMO's, the female of a certain character class is outfitted in a bikini top and thong while the male of the same class is covered from neck to toe. I've had this very discussion with many gamers and the biggest complaint is not the big boobs, but the clothing/armor itself being so blatantly obvious who the game is being marketted for.
Great article. I agree that men are affected by it too, however, not on the same level as women are. I have been playing MMORPGs and MMOs for numerous years and I've witnessed first-hand the sexism that runs rampant within the game and forum scope countless times. Which females are "hawt" and which ones are "nawt"... and God forbid if the owner of a "hawt" in-game avatar posts an actual pic of herself in the "Real Life Pic" thread and is less than what was expected.... she is branded, ignored and even shunned by the men.
Men seem to be "lured" into believing that what they are seeing is what they are actually getting.... sort of like phone sex... they see a pretty, sexy image on a web site, they fall into some sort of fantasy world, and truly believe that the heavyset housewife that is eating doughnuts while they are talking is the same person.
Look, lady's night in clubs sells, girls gone wild sells, phone sex sells, porn sells, and sexism in the game world sells, point blank, and it is geared for men and to draw men in. NOT women.
Truth is, a guy can post a pic of his "real" self in a game forum with his hair standing on end, pimples from forehead to chin, and his eyes looking in opposite directions and he is somehow accepted regardless... however, let a female post a pic that shows the fact that she weighs a tad more than 100 lbs. and looks like an average person, and she is either branded mufugly or even ignored... I have even witnessed females that post pics of someone else that looks "hawt" rather than face the scrutiny and rejection of her in-game "friends". I don't care what anyone says, it is the truth, and I know it to be so from observing.
If the in-game world of MMOs and MMORPGs were real, I know that it is probable that most everyone would have muscles from swinging swords and axes and running on foot everywhere, however, I also KNOW beyond the shadow of any doubt that ALL women would NOT be "hawt", have big breasts, small waists and tight asses, wear makeup and revealing clothing with their ass cracks, vaginas and cleavage exposed.
So, I do agree that women AND men are victims of sexism in MMORPGs, however, NOT in the same way.
Its a simple fact that there are less female players then male ones. Some give a darn about there appearance and others get picks form porn sites to deceive the male players. More then half of the players are in there puberty and live there sexual lives in magazines and porn from the net.
I'm married with a normal woman and Im on the fat side of the social ideal (the good cooking skills ). I really dont feel inferior to the Brad Pit's out there.
So do you take offence when a punk of -22 j makes fun of your irl photo?
I really dont.
There are girls that make fun of male irl photo's to but thy are not vocal about it, they just use there porn photo's to get the male's to give items and gold.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Coldhaert
Its a simple fact that there are less female players then male ones. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very true, and why do you suppose that is?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Coldhaert
Some give a darn about there appearance and others get picks form porn sites to deceive the male players. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THAT is a sexist remark if I ever heard one....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Coldhaert
So do you take offence when a punk of -22 j makes fun of your irl photo? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't know, I don't post pics of myself on the internet, nor anywhere else for that matter. I'm not a side of prime, grade A beef to be oogled, scrutinized, picked apart fiber by fiber, drooled over nor raped with someone's eyes...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Coldhaert
There are girls that make fun of male irl photo's to but thy are not vocal about it --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And how would you know that if they are not vocal about it?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Coldhaert
they just use there porn photo's to get the male's to give items and gold. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you sure about that? Or is it due to the fact that I stated above... that men seem to be "lured" into believing that what they are seeing is what they are actually getting.... sort of like phone sex... they see a pretty, sexy image on a web site, they fall into some sort of fantasy world, and truly believe that the heavyset housewife that is eating doughnuts while they are talking is the same person...
Face it Coldhaert, the bottom-line is that sex sells... and according to your own words, "there are less female players than male ones" you are only proving the point. Game manufacturers are using women and sexism to lure men into the game.
I have had 3 cases where i knowe its a girl that uses here gender to get gold items and influence in a game.
Females dont like violance and thats why they ar not attracted to MMO's (exept the Sims)
If there where more mmo's about romance, dressing and fluffyness you would see more femails.
And on a side note about sexist remarks. Its a sexist remak to say that you want post photos of yourself becose men will drool over them. Even more so when you say all or most males are perverts.
My wife playes MMO's and out of expiriance i can tell you that gifts ar flying around her head. So in a way you can be sure that unknowingly you have the advantage over men.
Originally posted by Coldhaert Females dont like violance and thats why they ar not attracted to MMO's (exept the Sims)
now that is the biggest load of ... that I've heard in a while, but not a new one mind you. I am female, married and a mother and I hate the SIMS and love FPS games. And I'm not the exception that proves the rule. I have been very active in the FPS game community for a long time and there are numerous girls and women who love playing FPS. It is your stereotypes and ignorance sir that are keeping more females from enjoying them.
I will concede that you have made one valid point, there are girls who flaunt themselves to get free stuff from other players in game. This is by no means the majority though, they are the ones that are also making it harder for the rest of us.
The rest of your both your posts is doing nothing to help the situation, only making it worse. You've stated yourself that more men play than women and your attitude is a big part of why not.
Comments
More on-topic, I think for the longest time computer games had to come up with skimpy girls in their artwork because 1) the target market was teenage boys and 2) the graphics were nowhere near the level of the box art, so they needed something to fire the imagination. This is less of an issue now and I believe we are starting to see games and MMOGs adjust to fit the changing market demographic.
Moving forward, I expect to see more customisation in character creation - City of Heroes / Villians really sets the benchmark here, with a huge amount of character flexibility. However, this will only get over the surface level issue - it's less an issue of sexism than unwanted sexualisation within MMOGs that occurs to female characters. THAT is a much bigger issue and one that only partly ties into what clothes female avatars can choose in-game.
One thing I noticed that no one seemed to remark upon in this, is that video games, of any genre, are male dominated. Is that a bad thing? NOPE! It's just a thing... there are many other hobbies out there that are female dominated. I mean really, when was the last time that you played a game where women out numbered men 10 to 1? But it's such a common thing in most MMOs for women to be seriously out numbered.
But, I personally believe, that because games have a much larger male client base, any good marketing department will slant their style to a male preference, yet add in enough qualities to attract women as well. Case in point : All those sexy female characters on the box covers are sword slinging, or magic throwing heroines.... not in a kitchen baking bread! I for one, look at the heroine on the covers and think, "hmm... I can have a good fighting character, nice!" I don't think, "wow, all the boys will love me for my pixels...er I mean boobs".
As for no men being portrayed in skimpy genital showing clothing... well, I dunno about any other ladies out there... but PLEASE, don't try to hang your willy out to get me all hot and bothered! I find the hard chested, tight rumped characters to be much more sexy... and a pixelated man decked out in powerful looking armour has much more of a swoon factor for me, then some guy in a G-String! We women don't want to see your junk, we want to see the whole package, preferably wrapped up enough that it teases our minds. Tight shirts any one? mmmm!
Yes, there IS sexism in games, but the look of the avatars is not it. It's the players that make the sexism, and the anonymity that lets people feel safe acting that way in "public". That goes either way, from the girls I see begging for cash/weapons/items because "I'm not as good as a guy!" (yes, many of these are REAL women as well as fakes) to the men who won't follow a female guild leader. We play games to have some relaxation, with out having to worry about getting fired for saying what we REALLY think. And yet, those extreme examples are rare. Oh, and ladies... if you don't like how you're treated in a game... then stop telling every one who you really are behind the keys. When some one asks you "So, are you really a girl?" just say "does it matter?"
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
What a silly article, really stretching for material?
Our society is full of sexism.
Both kinds.
To the writer, why don't you make a mmo with ALL fat ugly short people?
See how well it does.
ps - Watch that peice of dog poo show with William Shatner "Show me the money" and tell me about sexism and scantily clad women.
Being a player of EVE I have little problems with avatars who can be accused of being "sexist".
But I remembered an interesting point on the WoW forums regarding "chances" to male Blood Elves.
Apparently "the ideal man" of MMORPG games appeal more to gay men than women.
This is too big of a subject to discuss really. Sex sells, and most importantly, everyone allows themselves to let it sell. Take Brad Pitt for example, most women want him and many men want to be him, why? He is sexy, he is after all one of the sexist men alive, but is he really sexy. He is what many men are held to as a standard in many womens eyes; in fact many famous men who women consider sexy are what many men are held to as a standard and the same for women in regards to famous women. So lets look at Brad Pitt, is he really sexy, well I myself am better looking then Brad Pitt, facially I am, and my physical body is better shaped and toned then his is, I am 6, 5, I do indeed match that standard set for what a sexy man is, in fact I surpass it, I am frankly beautiful, I am also very successful and financially secure, but even so, does that make me sexy? Well in fact it does not, why? Because even though I do surpass the standard of what is sexy, I am still not him.
If you take Brads fame away, you take his money, you take away his make up people who do him up every day to go out in public, you take away his publicists who makes and pushes out the perception who him, you take it all way from Brad and you put him on a street corner, is he sexy? Well the truth is, no not really, actually he is rather homely looking. Take any famous women, take away her fame, take away her liposucks, take away her make up people, take away all the millions of dollars she spends on cosmetic surgery, and then put her on a street corner, is she really that sexy guys, truth be known, actually she would scare the shit out of you. Its all a lie, it is fake, what makes them sexy is what they are perceived as being sexy to you. People get sad, depressed, emotion problem arise, physically problems arise, some kill themselves and even many more starve themselves to death to reach what they think is the standard they themselves feel they need to be.
The problem is, even if you do reach that standard and pass it, you still can not reach it in your mind, it dose not exists, its not real, and people know its fake, but nonetheless, they can not let themselves be happy with themselves. Sex sells, because people want to be better then others, they want to be better then themselves, no one wants to admit that, but it is true. Sex sells everything about sex sells and can make you money. Is it wrong, yes it is, but then again, if anyone really did care, then it would not work, but thats the point, it does work, everyone loves it, and they all crave it. Sex sells, but whose to blame is it really the media, TV, Movies, Games, the people behind it all, or are you to blame, the average everyday person, who buys and enjoys everything that is fed to them about sex, if you dont feel it is right and it is wrong, then stop it, because after all the bottom line is money, and as of yet, the only thing sex has done in regards to money, is its made more of it. Bring it on down now.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
The reason MMO characters are (for the most part) idealized is exactly that - it's the ideal. By definition, people aspire to what is held to be ideal. Look at Warcraft - why do you think there are twice as many players in the Alliance as in the Horde? Because that's what people want to be! Both men AND women. It's the same reason why they put Kira Knightly on magazing covers instead of Mo'nique. . . It's not a conspiracy of men trying to make women into anorexics. It's simple economics. More people will buy the magazine with a thin woman on the cover - therefore they put thin women on the covers of magazines. In fact, women are, if anything, worse than men in this regard. Compare the cover of a woman's magazine - say Cosmo or Vogue - to the cover of a men's magazine like Stuff or Maxim. Month after month, the woman on the cover of the men's mag will be about 15-20 pounds heavier. Every culture, from the stone age on up, has had an ideal standards for male and female beauty. The idea that these ideals can be harmful, however, is a new concept. Is our 21st century concept of beauty unatainable? Perhaps, but it's us who created it. Blaming "the media" is a cop-out, because "the media" is only selling us what we want to buy.
I think it's important that the original editorial points out the silly double standard that exists for so-called "harmful" images in the media. Any man who feels insecure with his body because of the bluging biceps of his WoW avatar is a complete and total tool. And I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb there by saying that. However, why is it so obviously silly for men and, at the same time, a huge issue of concern for women? Women, in my opinion, should be held to the same standards as men. Orthodox feminism has created a horrible double standard - women are supposed to be strong-minded and independent, and yet they are supposed to feel like victims when they look at the cover of a magazine. Which is it? Are women emotionally delicate flowers that need to be protected from the big, bad world or are they free-thinking adults, capable of handling life on their own? If you can be made to feel genuine self-loathing by looking at an idealized video game avatar, then you have deeper issues to deal with. Young women need to be raised with a sense of what is and isn't real, and what is and isn't truely important. More importantly, they need to be taught to have a strong enough sense of themselves so they can withstand the basic pressures of everyday life.
Yeah, 15-20 pounds of boobs.
Huge breasts in video games is just an extension of what popular culture is ramming down societies throats. Teenage girls are eating it up too. I was in the gym the other day and I saw a 17 year old girl (I know because I asked her) with a boob job. She looked amazing, but it was sad. This beautiful 17 year old girl who felt she wasn't good enough the way god made her.
The porn industry is leaking into popular culture like never before and you know who is at fault? We are. We vote for this crap with our buying dollars and it is exactly the same in the video game industry.
I don't vote for this crap with my buying dollars, but it seems it is everywhere now, you just can't avoid it.
I like this article. I feel that new mmos should start pushing for a slider system when it comes to character creation. Its time to get rid of the whole "Ideal" man and woman and let players create whatever they want.
We still belive the ideal man and woman is what we see in games now but in all honesty, the gamer hasnt been given the option to make much else, never given the option to make a tall, short, fat or skinny. Farthest games go is usually old or young.
Hopefully new MMOs will go that extra mile and stray away from preset body types and allow players more freedom when it comes to their character, and lets see if everyone finds the same look appealing when given the chance to do more.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Has everyone lost sight of reality...or lack of reality. These are games, an escape. From the beginning of recorded history the heros and gods of stories were described as "perfect", "handsome", "beutiful". If Homer had to worry about how it would be thought of politically when he wrote about Aphrodite or Helen of Troy, the Odessy would have never been written. Egyptian hieroglyphs portrayed the people as physically perfect, this was their writing. Comic books have always portrayed their heros as better than perfect. If you think back on most fiction books, the protagonist is rarely "ugly" and the antagonist is many times portayed as less than perfect in the physical department. Why? Because people want, and have always wanted, to take themselves out of reality for a while, escape and enjoy themselves. Political correctness is making us question everything, down to our entertainment, it's a shame we can't just enjoy what is in front of us for what it is without stamping it politically correct, incorrect, offensive, sexist, demeaning, or whatever else.
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NFWolfDude
Aspire to Inspire before you Expire...
I would humbly disagree on some points you raise. But I do agree in part that perhaps women are more overtly discriminated against, and the sexism is perhaps much more readily visible regarding women.
I for one have seen female characters whooping at a half-naked dancing elf. Though it is fair to say that these people could easily be men behind the screen.
But there is an alternate side to sexism, and men are discriminated against. Have you ever heard the saying, "The clothes make the man"? Perhaps men are not so quickly discriminated against due to our looks, but we are just as quickly judged as women are on apperance. In reality, I have long hair, and tend to dress casual. But I am just as quickly judged as being scruffy, or a hippy even. Just as easily judged as a woman is for wearing a short skirt and being being immediately seen as a slut.
Varying levels of seriousness aside, we are all discriminated against according to society's ideals, in some form or another.
Korvass brings up a good point here, it's not always about the physical aspects of how a person looks, it's also the way they dress that draws a person's attention.
The only difference I see in how I interact in game with scruffy looking guys or scantily clad females is that I'm more tolerant of them ( depending on how they act) than those I see in real life.
Here is a new concept why not make the character Fully customisable that way we can all make our char our own fantasy person weight height and so on you will find most will choose to make their selves with abs of steel buns of steel yet not so overly skinny that one feels like a spokes model for some magazine or a sex idol there are a few but most of mens that ive met worry more about their male anotomy which isnt ever protreyed in games that height but thats just my opinion and we all have one and our own just a thought
Kattria
Floret Majestas(Let Majesty Flourish)
playing eq2 and two worlds
I'm not so sure.
Men are about three times more likely than women to die in their teens to mid-twenties and the two leading causes of death in these cases are suicide, and accidents. Which is, ironically, the same demographic that encompasses most of the MMORPG gaming public.
Now don't mistake me for Thompson. I'm not saying that violence in video games causes violent death, and suicide. What I am saying though is that violence, danger, and hazardous lifestyle choices is a large part of what society says is "masculine." We praise heroes on the screen and TV who use violence, or participate in violence, and come back unharmed, who are almost always male. We praise heroes who fight and die in the line of duty, like police, fire, and military, who are almost always male. Girls dig the guys in fast cars or bikes who race on back roads. Remember the song, "you have to be a football hero to get along with the beautiful gals?"
It is because the culture somehow thinks it is appropriate for men to kill themselves, and eachother to make people happy, and it is not a suprise that that young men and teens are killing themselves, and eachother in disproportionally large numbers. Working to death for respect, hazarding death for respect, and causing death for respect.
It seems to me that the male sexism in the MMOs has less to do with the avatars, and more to do with the things the avatars do: which are generally, fight, kill, and die. It seems almost every MMO is centered around the expectation that young men will be doing these things, most likely to eachother, which is a misrepresentation.
Young men and teen men do fight, kill, and die in larger proportions than others, but perhaps that is due to the fact that the culture equates violence with masculinity, and peacefulness with weakness. The truth be told though is that the vast majority of men are not as violent as the culture makes them out to be, and like to build, rather than destroy. Violence is a last resort in men, and not a first response. Yet we have a disproportionate emphasis on destruction in MMOs, and an underemphasis on things like tradeskills, crafting, and other things that help build virtual communities.
Again, don't mistake me for Thompson. I am not saying that the game violence causes real violence. What I am saying is that the MMO genre exploits cheap generalizations of masculinity just as it exploits cheap generalizations of female stereotypes. It is just that when feminists look at sexism, they have the tendency to see it in terms of the avatars only, and not what the avatars are actually doing. However, I would argue that the stereotypical portrayal of masculinity is just as strongly asserted, and can be equally detrimental, if not moreso in the case of young men.
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"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
This was a very good article and I"m not going to dispute anything said in it. I totally agree that the males and females are both idealized in games and that it's not really a bad thing. I do, however, think the writer missed a big point of why so many think that sexism is blatant in the characters, not by body build, but by how they are dressed.
In too many RPG's and MMO's, the female of a certain character class is outfitted in a bikini top and thong while the male of the same class is covered from neck to toe. I've had this very discussion with many gamers and the biggest complaint is not the big boobs, but the clothing/armor itself being so blatantly obvious who the game is being marketted for.
GamingGirls.net
Great article. I agree that men are affected by it too, however, not on the same level as women are. I have been playing MMORPGs and MMOs for numerous years and I've witnessed first-hand the sexism that runs rampant within the game and forum scope countless times. Which females are "hawt" and which ones are "nawt"... and God forbid if the owner of a "hawt" in-game avatar posts an actual pic of herself in the "Real Life Pic" thread and is less than what was expected.... she is branded, ignored and even shunned by the men.
Men seem to be "lured" into believing that what they are seeing is what they are actually getting.... sort of like phone sex... they see a pretty, sexy image on a web site, they fall into some sort of fantasy world, and truly believe that the heavyset housewife that is eating doughnuts while they are talking is the same person.
Look, lady's night in clubs sells, girls gone wild sells, phone sex sells, porn sells, and sexism in the game world sells, point blank, and it is geared for men and to draw men in. NOT women.
Truth is, a guy can post a pic of his "real" self in a game forum with his hair standing on end, pimples from forehead to chin, and his eyes looking in opposite directions and he is somehow accepted regardless... however, let a female post a pic that shows the fact that she weighs a tad more than 100 lbs. and looks like an average person, and she is either branded mufugly or even ignored... I have even witnessed females that post pics of someone else that looks "hawt" rather than face the scrutiny and rejection of her in-game "friends". I don't care what anyone says, it is the truth, and I know it to be so from observing.
If the in-game world of MMOs and MMORPGs were real, I know that it is probable that most everyone would have muscles from swinging swords and axes and running on foot everywhere, however, I also KNOW beyond the shadow of any doubt that ALL women would NOT be "hawt", have big breasts, small waists and tight asses, wear makeup and revealing clothing with their ass cracks, vaginas and cleavage exposed.
So, I do agree that women AND men are victims of sexism in MMORPGs, however, NOT in the same way.
GamingGirls.net
Well I dont agree
Its a simple fact that there are less female players then male ones. Some give a darn about there appearance and others get picks form porn sites to deceive the male players. More then half of the players are in there puberty and live there sexual lives in magazines and porn from the net.
I'm married with a normal woman and Im on the fat side of the social ideal (the good cooking skills
). I really dont feel inferior to the Brad Pit's out there.
So do you take offence when a punk of -22 j makes fun of your irl photo?
I really dont.
There are girls that make fun of male irl photo's to but thy are not vocal about it, they just use there porn photo's to get the male's to give items and gold.
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Originally posted by Coldhaert
Its a simple fact that there are less female players then male ones.
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Very true, and why do you suppose that is?
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Originally posted by Coldhaert
Some give a darn about there appearance and others get picks form porn sites to deceive the male players.
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THAT is a sexist remark if I ever heard one....
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Originally posted by Coldhaert
So do you take offence when a punk of -22 j makes fun of your irl photo?
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I wouldn't know, I don't post pics of myself on the internet, nor anywhere else for that matter. I'm not a side of prime, grade A beef to be oogled, scrutinized, picked apart fiber by fiber, drooled over nor raped with someone's eyes...
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Originally posted by Coldhaert
There are girls that make fun of male irl photo's to but thy are not vocal about it
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And how would you know that if they are not vocal about it?
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Originally posted by Coldhaert
they just use there porn photo's to get the male's to give items and gold.
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Are you sure about that? Or is it due to the fact that I stated above... that men seem to be "lured" into believing that what they are seeing is what they are actually getting.... sort of like phone sex... they see a pretty, sexy image on a web site, they fall into some sort of fantasy world, and truly believe that the heavyset housewife that is eating doughnuts while they are talking is the same person...
Face it Coldhaert, the bottom-line is that sex sells... and according to your own words, "there are less female players than male ones" you are only proving the point. Game manufacturers are using women and sexism to lure men into the game.
I have had 3 cases where i knowe its a girl that uses here gender to get gold items and influence in a game.
Females dont like violance and thats why they ar not attracted to MMO's (exept the Sims)
If there where more mmo's about romance, dressing and fluffyness you would see more femails.
And on a side note about sexist remarks. Its a sexist remak to say that you want post photos of yourself becose men will drool over them. Even more so when you say all or most males are perverts.
My wife playes MMO's and out of expiriance i can tell you that gifts ar flying around her head. So in a way you can be sure that unknowingly you have the advantage over men.
i agree that sex sels but it gows both ways
I will concede that you have made one valid point, there are girls who flaunt themselves to get free stuff from other players in game. This is by no means the majority though, they are the ones that are also making it harder for the rest of us.
The rest of your both your posts is doing nothing to help the situation, only making it worse. You've stated yourself that more men play than women and your attitude is a big part of why not.
GamingGirls.net