But give you this to chew on. The closest star to the earth is the sun and it's 96 million miles away. Traveling at one mile a second, it would still take you over 96,000 years to reach it.
My point? The universe if fuckin' ginormous! The creature you refer to as "God" created all of that in the blink of an eye. Billions upon billions of planets, solar systems, galaxies.....
And on a microscopic speck, upon a microscopic speck, upon a microscopic speck is an itty bitty little sign that reads "you are here."
Compared to "God," you are less than a microbe on a piece of shit in your toilet. What the hell makes you think that this awesomely omnipresent, omnipotent force of all creation really cares about who you fuck, whether you cheat on your taxes, or what words you use when telling the state trooper that you pay his salary? It would be like me regulating the behaviors of gnats.
Just to restate, I have no problem with people believing in a higher being/ superior being...
But I see so much contradictions (due to my own thoughts) that are present in the bible... ( same goes for the other religions, but they don't have as much ignorant people )... To be honest though, I only learn about the bible from the history channel and partial from the net... And I found this http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/JesusHell.htm ... History channel talked about that aspect too.... What it says is that "hell" doesn't exist in the old testament, at all... If it's true then,
As far as Planomm is going/saying... I don't really have a problem with him commenting and debating... That's good... However, I would like an explanation as to how these experiences reflect the God from the bible like Modjoe says? ( like if you don't understand the concept of wind, when it hits you, do you say it's God?)
From a certain perspective I do believe in a supreme being, but it's definitely not something living/breathing or anything that you could influence or communicate with...
But give you this to chew on. The closest star to the earth is the sun and it's 96 million miles away. Traveling at one mile a second, it would still take you over 96,000 years to reach it.
My point? The universe if fuckin' ginormous! The creature you refer to as "God" created all of that in the blink of an eye. Billions upon billions of planets, solar systems, galaxies.....
And on a microscopic speck, upon a microscopic speck, upon a microscopic speck is an itty bitty little sign that reads "you are here."
Compared to "God," you are less than a microbe on a piece of shit in your toilet. What the hell makes you think that this awesomely omnipresent, omnipotent force of all creation really cares about who you fuck, whether you cheat on your taxes, or what words you use when telling the state trooper that you pay his salary? It would be like me regulating the behaviors of gnats.
just my two cents. Have a nice day.
Worst argument ever. Like saying God cannot exist cause you dont see him in the sky.
Noone has ever proved the existence of anything else than "A thinking thing". Cogito ergo sum=I think therefore I am. aka Solipsism.
Lets talk about lightyears when we can safely say that the world around us is not an illusion.
But give you this to chew on. The closest star to the earth is the sun and it's 96 million miles away. Traveling at one mile a second, it would still take you over 96,000 years to reach it.
My point? The universe if fuckin' ginormous! The creature you refer to as "God" created all of that in the blink of an eye. Billions upon billions of planets, solar systems, galaxies.....
And on a microscopic speck, upon a microscopic speck, upon a microscopic speck is an itty bitty little sign that reads "you are here."
Compared to "God," you are less than a microbe on a piece of shit in your toilet. What the hell makes you think that this awesomely omnipresent, omnipotent force of all creation really cares about who you fuck, whether you cheat on your taxes, or what words you use when telling the state trooper that you pay his salary? It would be like me regulating the behaviors of gnats.
just my two cents. Have a nice day.
Worst argument ever. Like saying God cannot exist cause you dont see him in the sky.
Noone has ever proved the existence of anything else than "A thinking thing". Cogito ergo sum=I think therefore I am. aka Solipsism.
Lets talk about lightyears when we can safely say that the world around us is not an illusion.
.. you too
Thats not even what he's saying.. He is saying that if there is a god, he probably wouldn't give a shit about us because we are so miniscule compared to the rest of the universe.
I hope some day we can all put aside our racisms and prejudices and just laugh at people
But give you this to chew on. The closest star to the earth is the sun and it's 96 million miles away. Traveling at one mile a second, it would still take you over 96,000 years to reach it.
My point? The universe if fuckin' ginormous! The creature you refer to as "God" created all of that in the blink of an eye. Billions upon billions of planets, solar systems, galaxies.....
And on a microscopic speck, upon a microscopic speck, upon a microscopic speck is an itty bitty little sign that reads "you are here."
Compared to "God," you are less than a microbe on a piece of shit in your toilet. What the hell makes you think that this awesomely omnipresent, omnipotent force of all creation really cares about who you fuck, whether you cheat on your taxes, or what words you use when telling the state trooper that you pay his salary? It would be like me regulating the behaviors of gnats.
just my two cents. Have a nice day.
Worst argument ever. Like saying God cannot exist cause you dont see him in the sky.
Noone has ever proved the existence of anything else than "A thinking thing". Cogito ergo sum=I think therefore I am. aka Solipsism.
Lets talk about lightyears when we can safely say that the world around us is not an illusion.
.. you too
Thats not even what he's saying.. He is saying that if there is a god, he probably wouldn't give a shit about us because we are so miniscule compared to the rest of the universe.Sir, please read my post again. I know exactly what he means
I keep telling myself "Don't do it! It's not worth it! Don't even jump into this debate!" Yet here I am. Sorry in advance for anyone I offend.
I'd just like to point out a few things, some of which has been pointed out earlier.
So, God is Omnipotent, correct? Why can't he drop us a Postcard every now and then, Send an Angel down to say Hi at a major event? From what I understand, God loves us. Wouldn't he take every measure possible to show us his way? Just to kill all doubt in our minds that he may not exist. I mean, his one Requirement is that we accept him. I don't see why he wouldn't want to make it easier for us, afterall, I believe time doesn't matter to a God, if there is one.
Now, I know what you're thinking. The Free Will arguement. But tell me, would you put a small child in a room with a loaded gun, with no education about it? No, of course not, because in the off-chance he is smart (Err, unfortunate) enough to find out how to turn off the Safety and fire, its likely he'll find a way to shoot himself. Same thing here. Wouldn't you rather Educate your child about the gun beforehand, and tell him it is very dangerous before you send him in there? He still has free will. He can decide to play with the gun, or to outright shoot himself. However, he is extremely more likely not to. While you're probably thinking that the Bible is that education, based on what we know now, that education seems to be becoming more and more invalid. Continuing with the Child and gun Analogy, it would be sort of like showing the kid a Gun, and telling him it is dangerous, and then sending him into a room with a Hand Grenade.
Alright, next point. Slightly related as well.
Recently, I saw someone post a Bible quote. I can't quite remember where, however, I believe it was a First Correnthians (I know I butchered that word) or Hebrews. Anyway, the ghist/general Message was "God May send down false evidence to support the heretics, but don't believe a word". While its biblical evidence against most dating technologies and fossil records etc., It brings me back to the above point, Wouldn't God love us enough not to attempt to decieve us with false evidence? I know that these are both books of the New Testament (Unless both the above books are wrong), so this was after the "Fire and Brimstone" stage. Again, I would think a benevolent god would give us every possible offering before infringing upon free will to accept him.
Finally, a personal opinon. Don't take this as me stating fact. Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong, I'll listen, but not to intently.
I have trouble believing in a Benevolent God/Higher power. They say, Power Corrupts, And it does. If he was truely benevolent, there would be no Pain or Disease. He would not have introduced these things unto the world, as they are not necessary to determining if you are God's type of person (Which is essentially what this life seems to be about), as you can still steal, maul (cut off a limb or something to make limited use of their body) , rape, kill, and J-Walk. But back to the non-benevolency. Why does Hell exist, then? Once you die, you're obviously going to know that what you did was wrong. You'd be a fool to think you could go against God. If he forgives everything on Earth, why not when you're dead? And finally, The really opinionated part of this paragraph. I think it would be a whole lot more likely that any higher power is some form of indifferent. Just your average joe. Obviously, he isn't a nutcase, or we'd be picked up by invisible hands and dropped every once and a while, or spontaneously combust lots, or whatever. He probably figures just to leave us be, and watch the sitcom that he created. There probably isn't an afterlife with him. Who wants a load of whiney children? Either that, or there is a god who truely has no idea of our existance, and our creation was accidental.
Alright, I'm done. I'd also like to make a note, that every time I said He, it really meant He/Her. I realized towards the end I needed to be more politically correct. Alright, I'm ready for the onslaught I've doomed myself to. Bring it on.
We barely remember who or what came before this precious moment; We are choosing to be here right now -Tool, Parabola
I keep telling myself "Don't do it! It's not worth it! Don't even jump into this debate!" Yet here I am. Sorry in advance for anyone I offend. I'd just like to point out a few things, some of which has been pointed out earlier. So, God is Omnipotent, correct? Why can't he drop us a Postcard every now and then, Send an Angel down to say Hi at a major event? From what I understand, God loves us. Wouldn't he take every measure possible to show us his way? Just to kill all doubt in our minds that he may not exist. I mean, his one Requirement is that we accept him. I don't see why he wouldn't want to make it easier for us, afterall, I believe time doesn't matter to a God, if there is one. Now, I know what you're thinking. The Free Will arguement. But tell me, would you put a small child in a room with a loaded gun, with no education about it? No, of course not, because in the off-chance he is smart (Err, unfortunate) enough to find out how to turn off the Safety and fire, its likely he'll find a way to shoot himself. Same thing here. Wouldn't you rather Educate your child about the gun beforehand, and tell him it is very dangerous before you send him in there? He still has free will. He can decide to play with the gun, or to outright shoot himself. However, he is extremely more likely not to. While you're probably thinking that the Bible is that education, based on what we know now, that education seems to be becoming more and more invalid. Continuing with the Child and gun Analogy, it would be sort of like showing the kid a Gun, and telling him it is dangerous, and then sending him into a room with a Hand Grenade. Alright, next point. Slightly related as well. Recently, I saw someone post a Bible quote. I can't quite remember where, however, I believe it was a First Correnthians (I know I butchered that word) or Hebrews. Anyway, the ghist/general Message was "God May send down false evidence to support the heretics, but don't believe a word". While its biblical evidence against most dating technologies and fossil records etc., It brings me back to the above point, Wouldn't God love us enough not to attempt to decieve us with false evidence? I know that these are both books of the New Testament (Unless both the above books are wrong), so this was after the "Fire and Brimstone" stage. Again, I would think a benevolent god would give us every possible offering before infringing upon free will to accept him. Finally, a personal opinon. Don't take this as me stating fact. Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong, I'll listen, but not to intently. I have trouble believing in a Benevolent God/Higher power. They say, Power Corrupts, And it does. If he was truely benevolent, there would be no Pain or Disease. He would not have introduced these things unto the world, as they are not necessary to determining if you are God's type of person (Which is essentially what this life seems to be about), as you can still steal, maul (cut off a limb or something to make limited use of their body) , rape, kill, and J-Walk. But back to the non-benevolency. Why does Hell exist, then? Once you die, you're obviously going to know that what you did was wrong. You'd be a fool to think you could go against God. If he forgives everything on Earth, why not when you're dead? And finally, The really opinionated part of this paragraph. I think it would be a whole lot more likely that any higher power is some form of indifferent. Just your average joe. Obviously, he isn't a nutcase, or we'd be picked up by invisible hands and dropped every once and a while, or spontaneously combust lots, or whatever. He probably figures just to leave us be, and watch the sitcom that he created. There probably isn't an afterlife with him. Who wants a load of whiney children? Either that, or there is a god who truely has no idea of our existance, and our creation was accidental. Alright, I'm done. I'd also like to make a note, that every time I said He, it really meant He/Her. I realized towards the end I needed to be more politically correct. Alright, I'm ready for the onslaught I've doomed myself to. Bring it on.
now see, this is what im talking about. when the other athiests/agnostics/nonbelievers speak, they speak in condescending tones designed to insult and "enlighten" us stupid religious folk. but this post was made by someone who admits that they dont have the answers and obviously dont believe necessarily in a God, but without treating us Christians like a bunch of retarded "clinicly insane" backwards illiterate morons, he posed a few questions and gave his opinion.
those of you that are riding me ass about this whole topic, maybe you could go back and reread through this thread, youd notice that i only responded to those posts that were personally insulting to me. it doesnt bother me for an athiest/agnostic to voice why they dont believe. but you dont have to insult me in order to voice it.
and in answer to some of your questions, Mithrandir72, in the morning when i get off work ill attempt to answer them to the best of me knowledge. see, what modjoe and a few others are missing is that they are saying that we christians claim omnipotence. thats just not true, im only claiming to know Him that is omnipotent. i dont know everything about God, i just know God.
in any case, i gotta go to work now, talk to you all later.
You "know" something exists, but aren't obligated to provide a shred of proof? I'm fine with you believing in God, but you need to realize that you think God exists, because noone knows. How do you know God? Did he come have a conversation at the dinner table? How do you know that your experience of God was completely legitimate? Have you never considered the possibility that these feelings might have been influenced by a message that has been instilled in you every week at church, or a certain book?
How do you know your best friend is a real person? How do you know you are reading the English language? How do you know anything exists at all when it all could be a trick of your senses, a dream or a memory implant?
At some point, most people need to start trusting their senses and their experiences and even heresay and received wisdom to believe something exists, if for no other reason that the alternative leaves you knowing and believing nothing, maybe not even your own existance.
You can't see the wind, yet you "know" it's there because you can feel it and see its effects. You can't see friendship or anger or yesterday but you "know" they exist because you have experienced them.
Personally, I'm of the belief that you can "know" God in as much as you "know" anything. I think it actually takes a lot more faith to "know" that God doesn't exist - how can anyone know that?
So now you're comparing concrete objects with an abstract being? Isn't that a bit of a stretch? I know this keyboard exists because I'm typing on it. If you're interested in a philosophy discussion, then start a new thread, because the "how do you know anything is real" argument has no place in this topic.
Wind can hit you in the face, literally. Wind can pick up houses and carry them for miles. When wind blows in the dirt, you can see it. When God slaps me in the face, or picks up my house, I'll "know" he exists. You'll probably say that God doesn't need to manifest himself, and one must have faith that he exists. Well, I'm sorry, but if God was all fire and brimstone in the Old Testament, the least he can do is make an appearance or two.
As for your argument about friendship and anger, it is completely off base and illogical. Friendship and anger don't exist, they are just conrete words used to help us associate a word to an intangible object. Much like "God" is used to represent a big bearded man in the sky. Anger, friendship, and God don't necessarily exist. They are just placeholders.
I never said I "know" God exists or doesn't exist. As an agnostic, I don't try to comprehend the uncomprehendable. But yes, I agree, it takes just as much faith to "know" God deosn't exist. That's why both theists and atheists need to stop saying they know the answers to everything, because they don't.
If you say that someone who has had a personal experience with God or says they know Him only "thinks" they have, then the "how do you know anything is real" argument is pretty apt in my opinion. My point being that there are many things in life which are generally taken as being "known" which you could make the same arguments against. Just because something is intangible doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The wind analogy still stands in so far as many people do claim to feel the effects of God in their lives. There are plenty examples of people who's lives have been turned around because of their spiritual/religious experiences. This and the points about anger, friendship etc aren't supposed to be arguments providing evidence for God, but an attempt to explain how someone can say they "know" God exists and to give some kind of idea of what is meant by that.
btw I don't believe in a big bearded man in the sky and I don't think anybody on this thread has claimed to know the answers to everything.
I really dont have a problem with the belief in God(s) or superior beings or being Agnostic to the entire thing. As our existence and this universes existence is difficult to explain. But my main problem is with the Bible. To me you cant use any reasoning and still believe in that. One of the big problems I see with the "Bible" is why is everything happening 2k years ago? Basically all within a few years. Do you realize how old the universe is, and God decides to make an appearance for a couple of year strech, 2000 years ago? Why isnt the bible being constantly updated with the current events? How are a couple dozen people 2000 years ago more informed then priests today or 200yrs ago? Why didnt a majority of people who "eyewitnessed" these events, believe in God at that point. Actually Jews dont even believe in Jesus and he is a Jew. Then there is the entire thing with millions of people who lived in remote areas of the earth. What they just get an automatic pass to hell. God doesnt think they are worthy enough of his omni attention? Then theres the whole thing that is pretty wild to believe that some God that created the universe could even talk our primative language. What dont animals have to believe or deserve to go to heaven? Or do they get a free pass? What about when we were just coming out of Ape stage, at what point did we have to "believe" in God to go to "heaven", and at what point did we stop getting a free pass like all the other animals. Where does evolution exactly fit into the bible? If you were could actually be convinced with absolute proof that we evolved from apes would that change your opinion of the Bible? Or have you already factored that problem into your new belief system? If we were made in "Gods" image, was that a monkey? Because how could "God" be human looking if we evolved from Apes. Honestly I really think people who believe in religion and havent tried to answer these questions are just mentally lazy and are following what they feel is the least path of mental resistance.
I tend to agree with your last sentiment, although having said that I think a lot of people who have "met God" tend to get quite a different perspective on things. I have known atheists with every argument around as to why God can't and doesn't exist have quite a different standpoint on the "tricky" questions after some kind of conversion.
I would also agree with some of what you say about the Bible. It's old, it comes from various texts which sometimes don't even correspond, meanings can be lost in translation, people put different interpretations on the text and conveniently ignore parts they don't like, the parts that became the Bible were chosen by some group of guys who maybe had their own agendas, other parts were left out etc. With that kind of history to it, it makes it seem a little foolish to call it the ultimate word of God and try to follow it to the letter. Having said that, there is a lot of wisdom in it, and the texts are remarkable in the way that they can be read on many different levels. Reading the Bible has been life changing for many and has brought a deeper understanding of the divine. I guess it's not the best selling book in the world for nothing.
Nobody would dare to try to add to or update the Bible with things that have happened since and few would accept it if they did. There are, however, plenty of writers who have had works published since the Bible which talk about their experiences of God, some in spiritual and some in physical terms. You don't tend to get many people claiming such books are ultimate truth in the same way as the Bible, but many believers would argue that God speaks through such books in the same kind of way as with the Bible.
...Can't really deal with all of your points in a single post....or give them the attention and discussion they deserve. I'm sure it would be possible to have many page forum threads on each. Just a couple quickly from my point of view...I personally have no problem believing in a creator God (although not the 7 days stuff as historical truth) and evolution (or at least certain evolutionary principles if not the whole range of theories) and when the Bible says we're created in God's image, I view that in terms of our personality and spirituality rather than the physical form (eg. the desire to create, the love of a parent etc).
I m an atheist and in my opinion God was man made, a smart way to control the population without having to explain anything and just inspire in them the fear from hell and damnation so that they behave in an expected way. Control + Fear = Power.
Originally posted by MylonAtheism is not necessary. Rather, atheism is the label applied to people like myself for not believing. For simplicity's sake, or to make a point, we adopt that label ourselves. Atheism is not the belief that there is no god, but the lack of belief in a god or gods, much in the same manner that a Christian does not believe in Zeus or Shiva or any other number of gods.
Theism is an additional level of complexity attached to a world that works just fine with secular notions. Viewing atheism in a light similar to theism (as a belief system) is a gross misunderstanding and an insult.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
You are blurring the line between atheism and agnosticism.
The second definition fits me perfectly. I disbelieve in any number of gods just as a common person might disbelieve in the theory of a unobservable teapot orbiting one of Jupiter's moons.
its still a belief system, which was the point of posting the definition. and the teapot theory doesnt have any documented (aka bible, kuran, scrolls, eyewitness accounts) proof that it exists. if it did, i wouldnt think that you were stupid for believing in it. and yes, i get the anology, something made up, yada, yada, yada. the difference is that people can and do experience God today.
There's documentation behind a hobbit going to a mountain and visiting a sleeping dragon and finding a powerful magic ring along the way. Give it a couple thousand years for the origin of the story to be forgotten and for people to take it too seriously.
And atheists view the world such: The world exists. Theists generally go, "The world exists and God created it." That is what I mean when I say theism is an additional level of complexity.
If religion really was true, then we'd see people raised under one religion or with no religion suddenly of another religion, with no such influence. Like Christians in medieval China or monotheists in Pre-Age of Exploration Americas. But this does not happen. People generally follow the religion of their parents. This does not sound like "Experiencing God" to me.
I actually think people who are experiencing God are just deluding themselves. My examples of similiar situations are:
An extremely thirsty person walking in a desert. Given enough time, the person is likely to see an ilusion of a town, an ocean, an oasis or whatever they want thier brain to conjure up for them. If instead there was an illusion of Jesus, would this count as an experience? Even if they had a videa camcorder recording the illusion and when they replayed the tape and Jesus wasnt thier. All they would do is say that Jesus was showing himself to them only. They just really cant step away and take the situation for what it was. A delusional episode. If you want something bad enough your mind show you anything you want. Not to mention all the people that Dream of Jesus and count that as experiences.
Another example is just when I walk down a very dark street. I sometimes hear something and pretty soon im running. It almost feels as if im being chased. Yet I look around and nothing is there. So what is this a ghost? Maybe its God chasing me? Why is it I get this panic feeling in dark, deserted places. I never remember experiencing this in a crowded street in full daylight. What do Ghosts or God only make themselves felt at night?
Then you get the people who see Jesus in inanimate objects, like the guy who sold his Jesus Toast for like 30k on Ebay. Why is it that Jesus in these Toasts, Cereal, Leaves, Dirt, Clouds ..... always takes the form of the most common stereotypical picture of Jesus? You never see them of some ugly small troll looking person. People just cant understand that they see millions if not billions of images. Of course you are going to see something similiar to just about anything you want to see at some point in your lifetime.
My daughter pointed a cloud out that looked like a rabbit the other day. So what did this represent to me? The easter bunny communicating with me? Maybe I should just worship rabbits as Gods now. Maybe God was telling me to eat rabbits, or not eat rabbits, or have a rabbit pet. Cant people see how silly this is?
Less then 3% of gas cloud actually makes stars. Star formation is very inefficent.
Most places kill like instantly --heat--cold--radiation. The people that say the forces of nature are just right for life! Exscuse me! Just look at the volume of the universe where you cant live. Thats not what i call the garden of Eden.
Galaxy orbit which happens every couple billion years may bring you near a supernova.
Collide with the Andromeda Galaxy. Gone is this beautiful spiral galaxy.
One-way universe will slowly wind down to absolute zero.
Earth
Earthquakes & Volcanoes level cities and towns.
Tsunamis - Killed 200,000 people
Floods/Tornadoes/ Hurricanes/Lightning Strikes
Cant live on 2/3 of the earths surface.
Freeze or starve on half of what remains.
Mass extinction- 90% of the life living on the planet is now gone. disease/climate shift/asteroids
Inner solar system is a shooting gallery for asteroids and comets.
Took 3.5 billion years to make multi-cellular life. Hardly an efficent plan with us in mind.
If there is no God then where would we get our morality from?
I know a lot of people can live a relatively moral and upstanding life without religion or a belief in God, but there are a lot who can't. And I don't want to live in a world with that large group that would find doing anything they want fine because there is nothing they are responsible or answerable to.
I heard a guy on the radio today say something that was pretty cool. He said that the less a society has of religion or a belief in a deity then the more they need laws and government to be held responsible to.
But I could add a spin to that. The more people you have in a society who make a token gesture towards religion or belief in a deity the more laws and government you need. I think that's the state of America right now. There are a lot of folks calling themselves religious or believers who are just giving it lip service.
Less then 3% of gas cloud actually makes stars. Star formation is very inefficent.
Most places kill like instantly --heat--cold--radiation. The people that say the forces of nature are just right for life! Exscuse me! Just look at the volume of the universe where you cant live. Thats not what i call the garden of Eden.
Galaxy orbit which happens every couple billion years may bring you near a supernova.
Collide with the Andromeda Galaxy. Gone is this beautiful spiral galaxy.
One-way universe will slowly wind down to absolute zero.
Earth
Earthquakes & Volcanoes level cities and towns.
Tsunamis - Killed 200,000 people
Floods/Tornadoes/ Hurricanes/Lightning Strikes
Cant live on 2/3 of the earths surface.
Freeze or starve on half of what remains.
Mass extinction- 90% of the life living on the planet is now gone. disease/climate shift/asteroids
Inner solar system is a shooting gallery for asteroids and comets.
Took 3.5 billion years to make multi-cellular life. Hardly an efficent plan with us in mind.
Vision loss with age -- teeth fall out -- Alzheimers -- prostate cancer
Exhale most oxygen we inhale.
Warm-blooded must eat constantly, Crocodiles eat a chicken a month there fine.
Practically comatose for 1/3 of our lives.
Cant detectmagnetic fields, ionizing radiation fields, Radon CO, CH4 CO2
Not even touching the expression of free will where people kill themselves.
Birth defects, well over 60% of birth defects have unknown causes. 10-15% for abuse infection and other thing but 60% we have know idea.
We breath, eat, and drink from the same hole in our body, assuring that some percent of us will choke to death in the not to distant future.
What is going on inbetween our legs? It's an amusement park ! No engineer would design that at all!
Umm, about your universe stats...did God write them? Last I checked, we haven't come anywhere close to leaving our solar system, much less our galaxy. So where do these factual figures come from?
In reality, very shaky conjecture is all we have to go on. We have no idea what lies outside of our own solar system, other than some telescopes. Regardless, even if this 3% number is true, there is such a ridiculously large number of solar systems that life of some sort is almost a certainty.
Oh, and the generally accepted theory is an ever expanding universe, not a collapsing one. Those who support this "winding down", which I have never even heard of, are in the minority.
If there is no God then where would we get our morality from?
I know a lot of people can live a relatively moral and upstanding life without religion or a belief in God, but there are a lot who can't. And I don't want to live in a world with that large group that would find doing anything they want fine because there is nothing they are responsible or answerable to.
I heard a guy on the radio today say something that was pretty cool. He said that the less a society has of religion or a belief in a deity then the more they need laws and government to be held responsible to.
But I could add a spin to that. The more people you have in a society who make a token gesture towards religion or belief in a deity the more laws and government you need. I think that's the state of America right now. There are a lot of folks calling themselves religious or believers who are just giving it lip service.
I agree with you on this one to an extent, though I can't stretch it as far as you did.
People need someone to answer to, be it God or Dubya. But with the absence of religion, I don't think morality would cease to exist, even if government wasn't there to dictate things. Bad things will happen from time to time regardless of the repercussion for the action. But, in general, I think people have a general sense of right and wrong regardless of their upbringing. Call this a God-instilled logic if you want to, but I don't believe God, nor the government, dictates morality. I think humans do.
If there is no God then where would we get our morality from?
I know a lot of people can live a relatively moral and upstanding life without religion or a belief in God, but there are a lot who can't. And I don't want to live in a world with that large group that would find doing anything they want fine because there is nothing they are responsible or answerable to.
I heard a guy on the radio today say something that was pretty cool. He said that the less a society has of religion or a belief in a deity then the more they need laws and government to be held responsible to.
But I could add a spin to that. The more people you have in a society who make a token gesture towards religion or belief in a deity the more laws and government you need. I think that's the state of America right now. There are a lot of folks calling themselves religious or believers who are just giving it lip service.
I agree with you on this one to an extent, though I can't stretch it as far as you did.
People need someone to answer to, be it God or Dubya. But with the absence of religion, I don't think morality would cease to exist, even if government wasn't there to dictate things. Bad things will happen from time to time regardless of the repercussion for the action. But, in general, I think people have a general sense of right and wrong regardless of their upbringing. Call this a God-instilled logic if you want to, but I don't believe God, nor the government, dictates morality. I think humans do.
I disagree. People already have something to answer to: The police. If they do something bad, the police come take them away and punish them. What more is God (from a morality standpoint) other than a super cop that can babysit everyone at once and dish out eternal punishment?
And saying that people answer to police isn't even entirely correct. They still have to answer to society, and this isn't as well defined as what's written in the lawbooks. If they are rude, for example, people will avoid them and they may lack in the social life department because of that. But cause/effect are not immediately obvious in this environment, so it can be more difficult for people to understand, which is why the "police" analogy above is an easier presentation of the concept of theism-free morals.
I'd like to add, PARENTS!!!, Hello, parents teach their children morals, if parents are leaving it up to the church or religion alone, then I find that pretty sad... And really it boils down to community and what society deems moral or immoral...
And there's evidence of this throughout history... like how they're supposed to declare their "tactics" or what they're supposed to use in the world wars or generally land or air and not both, unlike the germans with their blitzkrieg... Samurai's suiciding if they fail their objective... etc...
besides, religion is made up by people to begin with, and although it creates those zealous people, those same people are the ones being delusioned... Instead of delusioning people, I think a community is enough for justifying morals...
You are obviously new to the forums, so let me fill you in. Once you have 200+ posts you are allowed to voice your opinion, until then you kiss everyone's ass.
That's pretty harsh. *looks at post count*
Overall, I tend to stay out of religion threads. I'm agnostic myself. Like Modjoe said, I have no experience with the divine, and don't want to pretend to know anything. Although I have to admit my gut makes me lean towards atheism, but I truly want everybody to be respectful to each other, regardless of religion, race, sex, sexuality, etcetera.
Its hard to believe that we were created out of NOTHING. There must of been some intelligent mind behind all of this. Take in account how complex our race is. How our DNA and RNA is a blueprint for our existance. Its hard to believe all of the complexity of life was formed out of cosmic dice rolling a random number.
I do believe we have a creator. Its hard to believe that we were created out of NOTHING. There must of been some intelligent mind behind all of this. Take in account how complex our race is. How our DNA and RNA is a blueprint for our existance. Its hard to believe all of the complexity of life was formed out of cosmic dice rolling a random number.
I do believe we have a creator. Its hard to believe that we were created out of NOTHING. There must of been some intelligent mind behind all of this. Take in account how complex our race is. How our DNA and RNA is a blueprint for our existance. Its hard to believe all of the complexity of life was formed out of cosmic dice rolling a random number.
Comments
But give you this to chew on. The closest star to the earth is the sun and it's 96 million miles away. Traveling at one mile a second, it would still take you over 96,000 years to reach it.
My point? The universe if fuckin' ginormous! The creature you refer to as "God" created all of that in the blink of an eye. Billions upon billions of planets, solar systems, galaxies.....
And on a microscopic speck, upon a microscopic speck, upon a microscopic speck is an itty bitty little sign that reads "you are here."
Compared to "God," you are less than a microbe on a piece of shit in your toilet. What the hell makes you think that this awesomely omnipresent, omnipotent force of all creation really cares about who you fuck, whether you cheat on your taxes, or what words you use when telling the state trooper that you pay his salary? It would be like me regulating the behaviors of gnats.
just my two cents. Have a nice day.
Just to restate, I have no problem with people believing in a higher being/ superior being...
But I see so much contradictions (due to my own thoughts) that are present in the bible... ( same goes for the other religions, but they don't have as much ignorant people )... To be honest though, I only learn about the bible from the history channel and partial from the net... And I found this http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/JesusHell.htm ... History channel talked about that aspect too.... What it says is that "hell" doesn't exist in the old testament, at all... If it's true then,
As far as Planomm is going/saying... I don't really have a problem with him commenting and debating... That's good... However, I would like an explanation as to how these experiences reflect the God from the bible like Modjoe says? ( like if you don't understand the concept of wind, when it hits you, do you say it's God?)
From a certain perspective I do believe in a supreme being, but it's definitely not something living/breathing or anything that you could influence or communicate with...
Noone has ever proved the existence of anything else than "A thinking thing". Cogito ergo sum=I think therefore I am. aka Solipsism.
Lets talk about lightyears when we can safely say that the world around us is not an illusion.
.. you too
Noone has ever proved the existence of anything else than "A thinking thing". Cogito ergo sum=I think therefore I am. aka Solipsism.
Lets talk about lightyears when we can safely say that the world around us is not an illusion.
.. you too
Thats not even what he's saying.. He is saying that if there is a god, he probably wouldn't give a shit about us because we are so miniscule compared to the rest of the universe.
I hope some day we can all put aside our racisms and prejudices and just laugh at people
Noone has ever proved the existence of anything else than "A thinking thing". Cogito ergo sum=I think therefore I am. aka Solipsism.
Lets talk about lightyears when we can safely say that the world around us is not an illusion.
.. you too
Thats not even what he's saying.. He is saying that if there is a god, he probably wouldn't give a shit about us because we are so miniscule compared to the rest of the universe.Sir, please read my post again. I know exactly what he means
I keep telling myself "Don't do it! It's not worth it! Don't even jump into this debate!" Yet here I am. Sorry in advance for anyone I offend.
I'd just like to point out a few things, some of which has been pointed out earlier.
So, God is Omnipotent, correct? Why can't he drop us a Postcard every now and then, Send an Angel down to say Hi at a major event? From what I understand, God loves us. Wouldn't he take every measure possible to show us his way? Just to kill all doubt in our minds that he may not exist. I mean, his one Requirement is that we accept him. I don't see why he wouldn't want to make it easier for us, afterall, I believe time doesn't matter to a God, if there is one.
Now, I know what you're thinking. The Free Will arguement. But tell me, would you put a small child in a room with a loaded gun, with no education about it? No, of course not, because in the off-chance he is smart (Err, unfortunate) enough to find out how to turn off the Safety and fire, its likely he'll find a way to shoot himself. Same thing here. Wouldn't you rather Educate your child about the gun beforehand, and tell him it is very dangerous before you send him in there? He still has free will. He can decide to play with the gun, or to outright shoot himself. However, he is extremely more likely not to. While you're probably thinking that the Bible is that education, based on what we know now, that education seems to be becoming more and more invalid. Continuing with the Child and gun Analogy, it would be sort of like showing the kid a Gun, and telling him it is dangerous, and then sending him into a room with a Hand Grenade.
Alright, next point. Slightly related as well.
Recently, I saw someone post a Bible quote. I can't quite remember where, however, I believe it was a First Correnthians (I know I butchered that word) or Hebrews. Anyway, the ghist/general Message was "God May send down false evidence to support the heretics, but don't believe a word". While its biblical evidence against most dating technologies and fossil records etc., It brings me back to the above point, Wouldn't God love us enough not to attempt to decieve us with false evidence? I know that these are both books of the New Testament (Unless both the above books are wrong), so this was after the "Fire and Brimstone" stage. Again, I would think a benevolent god would give us every possible offering before infringing upon free will to accept him.
Finally, a personal opinon. Don't take this as me stating fact. Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong, I'll listen, but not to intently.
I have trouble believing in a Benevolent God/Higher power. They say, Power Corrupts, And it does. If he was truely benevolent, there would be no Pain or Disease. He would not have introduced these things unto the world, as they are not necessary to determining if you are God's type of person (Which is essentially what this life seems to be about), as you can still steal, maul (cut off a limb or something to make limited use of their body) , rape, kill, and J-Walk
. But back to the non-benevolency. Why does Hell exist, then? Once you die, you're obviously going to know that what you did was wrong. You'd be a fool to think you could go against God. If he forgives everything on Earth, why not when you're dead? And finally, The really opinionated part of this paragraph. I think it would be a whole lot more likely that any higher power is some form of indifferent. Just your average joe. Obviously, he isn't a nutcase, or we'd be picked up by invisible hands and dropped every once and a while, or spontaneously combust lots, or whatever. He probably figures just to leave us be, and watch the sitcom that he created. There probably isn't an afterlife with him. Who wants a load of whiney children? Either that, or there is a god who truely has no idea of our existance, and our creation was accidental.
Alright, I'm done. I'd also like to make a note, that every time I said He, it really meant He/Her. I realized towards the end I needed to be more politically correct. Alright, I'm ready for the onslaught I've doomed myself to. Bring it on.
We barely remember who or what came before this precious moment;
We are choosing to be here right now -Tool, Parabola
now see, this is what im talking about. when the other athiests/agnostics/nonbelievers speak, they speak in condescending tones designed to insult and "enlighten" us stupid religious folk. but this post was made by someone who admits that they dont have the answers and obviously dont believe necessarily in a God, but without treating us Christians like a bunch of retarded "clinicly insane" backwards illiterate morons, he posed a few questions and gave his opinion.
those of you that are riding me ass about this whole topic, maybe you could go back and reread through this thread, youd notice that i only responded to those posts that were personally insulting to me. it doesnt bother me for an athiest/agnostic to voice why they dont believe. but you dont have to insult me in order to voice it.
and in answer to some of your questions, Mithrandir72, in the morning when i get off work ill attempt to answer them to the best of me knowledge. see, what modjoe and a few others are missing is that they are saying that we christians claim omnipotence. thats just not true, im only claiming to know Him that is omnipotent. i dont know everything about God, i just know God.
in any case, i gotta go to work now, talk to you all later.
______________________________
this is a dum thread
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How do you know your best friend is a real person? How do you know you are reading the English language? How do you know anything exists at all when it all could be a trick of your senses, a dream or a memory implant?
At some point, most people need to start trusting their senses and their experiences and even heresay and received wisdom to believe something exists, if for no other reason that the alternative leaves you knowing and believing nothing, maybe not even your own existance.
You can't see the wind, yet you "know" it's there because you can feel it and see its effects. You can't see friendship or anger or yesterday but you "know" they exist because you have experienced them.
Personally, I'm of the belief that you can "know" God in as much as you "know" anything. I think it actually takes a lot more faith to "know" that God doesn't exist - how can anyone know that?
So now you're comparing concrete objects with an abstract being? Isn't that a bit of a stretch? I know this keyboard exists because I'm typing on it. If you're interested in a philosophy discussion, then start a new thread, because the "how do you know anything is real" argument has no place in this topic.
Wind can hit you in the face, literally. Wind can pick up houses and carry them for miles. When wind blows in the dirt, you can see it. When God slaps me in the face, or picks up my house, I'll "know" he exists. You'll probably say that God doesn't need to manifest himself, and one must have faith that he exists. Well, I'm sorry, but if God was all fire and brimstone in the Old Testament, the least he can do is make an appearance or two.
As for your argument about friendship and anger, it is completely off base and illogical. Friendship and anger don't exist, they are just conrete words used to help us associate a word to an intangible object. Much like "God" is used to represent a big bearded man in the sky. Anger, friendship, and God don't necessarily exist. They are just placeholders.
I never said I "know" God exists or doesn't exist. As an agnostic, I don't try to comprehend the uncomprehendable. But yes, I agree, it takes just as much faith to "know" God deosn't exist. That's why both theists and atheists need to stop saying they know the answers to everything, because they don't.
If you say that someone who has had a personal experience with God or says they know Him only "thinks" they have, then the "how do you know anything is real" argument is pretty apt in my opinion. My point being that there are many things in life which are generally taken as being "known" which you could make the same arguments against. Just because something is intangible doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The wind analogy still stands in so far as many people do claim to feel the effects of God in their lives. There are plenty examples of people who's lives have been turned around because of their spiritual/religious experiences. This and the points about anger, friendship etc aren't supposed to be arguments providing evidence for God, but an attempt to explain how someone can say they "know" God exists and to give some kind of idea of what is meant by that.
btw I don't believe in a big bearded man in the sky and I don't think anybody on this thread has claimed to know the answers to everything.
I tend to agree with your last sentiment, although having said that I think a lot of people who have "met God" tend to get quite a different perspective on things. I have known atheists with every argument around as to why God can't and doesn't exist have quite a different standpoint on the "tricky" questions after some kind of conversion.
I would also agree with some of what you say about the Bible. It's old, it comes from various texts which sometimes don't even correspond, meanings can be lost in translation, people put different interpretations on the text and conveniently ignore parts they don't like, the parts that became the Bible were chosen by some group of guys who maybe had their own agendas, other parts were left out etc. With that kind of history to it, it makes it seem a little foolish to call it the ultimate word of God and try to follow it to the letter. Having said that, there is a lot of wisdom in it, and the texts are remarkable in the way that they can be read on many different levels. Reading the Bible has been life changing for many and has brought a deeper understanding of the divine. I guess it's not the best selling book in the world for nothing.
Nobody would dare to try to add to or update the Bible with things that have happened since and few would accept it if they did. There are, however, plenty of writers who have had works published since the Bible which talk about their experiences of God, some in spiritual and some in physical terms. You don't tend to get many people claiming such books are ultimate truth in the same way as the Bible, but many believers would argue that God speaks through such books in the same kind of way as with the Bible.
...Can't really deal with all of your points in a single post....or give them the attention and discussion they deserve. I'm sure it would be possible to have many page forum threads on each. Just a couple quickly from my point of view...I personally have no problem believing in a creator God (although not the 7 days stuff as historical truth) and evolution (or at least certain evolutionary principles if not the whole range of theories) and when the Bible says we're created in God's image, I view that in terms of our personality and spirituality rather than the physical form (eg. the desire to create, the love of a parent etc).
You are blurring the line between atheism and agnosticism.
The second definition fits me perfectly. I disbelieve in any number of gods just as a common person might disbelieve in the theory of a unobservable teapot orbiting one of Jupiter's moons.
its still a belief system, which was the point of posting the definition. and the teapot theory doesnt have any documented (aka bible, kuran, scrolls, eyewitness accounts) proof that it exists. if it did, i wouldnt think that you were stupid for believing in it. and yes, i get the anology, something made up, yada, yada, yada. the difference is that people can and do experience God today.
There's documentation behind a hobbit going to a mountain and visiting a sleeping dragon and finding a powerful magic ring along the way. Give it a couple thousand years for the origin of the story to be forgotten and for people to take it too seriously.
And atheists view the world such: The world exists. Theists generally go, "The world exists and God created it." That is what I mean when I say theism is an additional level of complexity.
If religion really was true, then we'd see people raised under one religion or with no religion suddenly of another religion, with no such influence. Like Christians in medieval China or monotheists in Pre-Age of Exploration Americas. But this does not happen. People generally follow the religion of their parents. This does not sound like "Experiencing God" to me.
I actually think people who are experiencing God are just deluding themselves. My examples of similiar situations are:
An extremely thirsty person walking in a desert. Given enough time, the person is likely to see an ilusion of a town, an ocean, an oasis or whatever they want thier brain to conjure up for them. If instead there was an illusion of Jesus, would this count as an experience? Even if they had a videa camcorder recording the illusion and when they replayed the tape and Jesus wasnt thier. All they would do is say that Jesus was showing himself to them only. They just really cant step away and take the situation for what it was. A delusional episode. If you want something bad enough your mind show you anything you want. Not to mention all the people that Dream of Jesus and count that as experiences.
Another example is just when I walk down a very dark street. I sometimes hear something and pretty soon im running. It almost feels as if im being chased. Yet I look around and nothing is there. So what is this a ghost? Maybe its God chasing me? Why is it I get this panic feeling in dark, deserted places. I never remember experiencing this in a crowded street in full daylight. What do Ghosts or God only make themselves felt at night?
Then you get the people who see Jesus in inanimate objects, like the guy who sold his Jesus Toast for like 30k on Ebay. Why is it that Jesus in these Toasts, Cereal, Leaves, Dirt, Clouds ..... always takes the form of the most common stereotypical picture of Jesus? You never see them of some ugly small troll looking person. People just cant understand that they see millions if not billions of images. Of course you are going to see something similiar to just about anything you want to see at some point in your lifetime.
My daughter pointed a cloud out that looked like a rabbit the other day. So what did this represent to me? The easter bunny communicating with me? Maybe I should just worship rabbits as Gods now. Maybe God was telling me to eat rabbits, or not eat rabbits, or have a rabbit pet. Cant people see how silly this is?
Universe
Most planet orbits are unstable.
Less then 3% of gas cloud actually makes stars. Star formation is very inefficent.
Most places kill like instantly --heat--cold--radiation. The people that say the forces of nature are just right for life! Exscuse me! Just look at the volume of the universe where you cant live. Thats not what i call the garden of Eden.
Galaxy orbit which happens every couple billion years may bring you near a supernova.
Collide with the Andromeda Galaxy. Gone is this beautiful spiral galaxy.
One-way universe will slowly wind down to absolute zero.
Earth
Earthquakes & Volcanoes level cities and towns.
Tsunamis - Killed 200,000 people
Floods/Tornadoes/ Hurricanes/Lightning Strikes
Cant live on 2/3 of the earths surface.
Freeze or starve on half of what remains.
Mass extinction- 90% of the life living on the planet is now gone. disease/climate shift/asteroids
Inner solar system is a shooting gallery for asteroids and comets.
Took 3.5 billion years to make multi-cellular life. Hardly an efficent plan with us in mind.
Humans
Aggressive Childhood Lukemia, hemophilia, sickle cell anemia, multiple sclerosis, epilepsy, Parkonsons, AL3
Narrow view of the electro magnetic spectrum.
Vision loss with age -- teeth fall out -- Alzheimers -- prostate cancer
Exhale most oxygen we inhale.
Warm-blooded must eat constantly, Crocodiles eat a chicken a month there fine.
Practically comatose for 1/3 of our lives.
Cant detectmagnetic fields, ionizing radiation fields, Radon CO, CH4 CO2
Not even touching the expression of free will where people kill themselves.
Birth defects, well over 60% of birth defects have unknown causes. 10-15% for abuse infection and other thing but 60% we have know idea.
We breath, eat, and drink from the same hole in our body, assuring that some percent of us will choke to death in the not to distant future.
What is going on inbetween our legs? It's an amusement park ! No engineer would design that at all!
On Time? On Target? Never Quit?
I know a lot of people can live a relatively moral and upstanding life without religion or a belief in God, but there are a lot who can't. And I don't want to live in a world with that large group that would find doing anything they want fine because there is nothing they are responsible or answerable to.
I heard a guy on the radio today say something that was pretty cool. He said that the less a society has of religion or a belief in a deity then the more they need laws and government to be held responsible to.
But I could add a spin to that. The more people you have in a society who make a token gesture towards religion or belief in a deity the more laws and government you need. I think that's the state of America right now. There are a lot of folks calling themselves religious or believers who are just giving it lip service.
Umm, about your universe stats...did God write them? Last I checked, we haven't come anywhere close to leaving our solar system, much less our galaxy. So where do these factual figures come from?
In reality, very shaky conjecture is all we have to go on. We have no idea what lies outside of our own solar system, other than some telescopes. Regardless, even if this 3% number is true, there is such a ridiculously large number of solar systems that life of some sort is almost a certainty.
Oh, and the generally accepted theory is an ever expanding universe, not a collapsing one. Those who support this "winding down", which I have never even heard of, are in the minority.
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I agree with you on this one to an extent, though I can't stretch it as far as you did.
People need someone to answer to, be it God or Dubya. But with the absence of religion, I don't think morality would cease to exist, even if government wasn't there to dictate things. Bad things will happen from time to time regardless of the repercussion for the action. But, in general, I think people have a general sense of right and wrong regardless of their upbringing. Call this a God-instilled logic if you want to, but I don't believe God, nor the government, dictates morality. I think humans do.
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I agree with you on this one to an extent, though I can't stretch it as far as you did.
People need someone to answer to, be it God or Dubya. But with the absence of religion, I don't think morality would cease to exist, even if government wasn't there to dictate things. Bad things will happen from time to time regardless of the repercussion for the action. But, in general, I think people have a general sense of right and wrong regardless of their upbringing. Call this a God-instilled logic if you want to, but I don't believe God, nor the government, dictates morality. I think humans do.
I disagree. People already have something to answer to: The police. If they do something bad, the police come take them away and punish them. What more is God (from a morality standpoint) other than a super cop that can babysit everyone at once and dish out eternal punishment?And saying that people answer to police isn't even entirely correct. They still have to answer to society, and this isn't as well defined as what's written in the lawbooks. If they are rude, for example, people will avoid them and they may lack in the social life department because of that. But cause/effect are not immediately obvious in this environment, so it can be more difficult for people to understand, which is why the "police" analogy above is an easier presentation of the concept of theism-free morals.
What Mylon and Modjoe says...
I'd like to add, PARENTS!!!, Hello, parents teach their children morals, if parents are leaving it up to the church or religion alone, then I find that pretty sad... And really it boils down to community and what society deems moral or immoral...
And there's evidence of this throughout history... like how they're supposed to declare their "tactics" or what they're supposed to use in the world wars or generally land or air and not both, unlike the germans with their blitzkrieg... Samurai's suiciding if they fail their objective... etc...
besides, religion is made up by people to begin with, and although it creates those zealous people, those same people are the ones being delusioned... Instead of delusioning people, I think a community is enough for justifying morals...
That's pretty harsh. *looks at post count*
Overall, I tend to stay out of religion threads. I'm agnostic myself. Like Modjoe said, I have no experience with the divine, and don't want to pretend to know anything. Although I have to admit my gut makes me lean towards atheism, but I truly want everybody to be respectful to each other, regardless of religion, race, sex, sexuality, etcetera.
I do believe we have a creator.
Its hard to believe that we were created out of NOTHING. There must of been some intelligent mind behind all of this. Take in account how complex our race is. How our DNA and RNA is a blueprint for our existance. Its hard to believe all of the complexity of life was formed out of cosmic dice rolling a random number.
Where did the atoms in our universe come from?
Only God knows