Originally posted by Draenor God knows your heart, if you go through life thinking "I'm going to do whatever I want and then right when I'm about to die I'm going to start believing in Jesus" then it isn't going to fly.
That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
on the contrary, when the thief recognized his Lord, he did worship Him. up till this point in his life, he hadnt know Jesus. when he met the Lord, he gave his life to him. read up one verse.
So, where does it say you have to had faith for some time period? It doesn't. Jesus said what he did because the thief's repentence was *genuine* not because of how long he believed.
The thief repented his ways before he died and Jesus accepted it and said what he did. Oddly enough, this is the sole person in the Greek scriptures who Jesus promises his Father's kingdom to.
Ah fuck it, i'm out of this thread. What a *fucking* waste of time discussing any of this is...
yeah, i dont disagree with you. his repentence was "genuine". where are we disagreeing?
Personally I'm Pagan. Always have been and always will be.
Free will is a great thing..
To even consider that there is only one path for every person to follow is absurd. However I have respect for all beliefs even where it lacks - as in athieism for example. To follow you own path and not falter from ones personal standings and opinions is a great achievment by itself but to have religeous tolorance is an even greater act. The truth of the matter is that all paths lead to the same center, I don't care what path you follow.
In anycase I have been a student of religeous history for many years and can tell you one thing right now. Paganism came first. The Jesus movement is roughly 2000 years old and more or less started out on very shaky ground and to this day is still not well formed. Too many of you debating over who is right and who is wrong. It gets really old rather quickly. Mind you I'm not trying to say that Pagans are any better then anyone else just because Paganism as a whole is so old, just saying that modern belief systems all have Pagan roots. However denial has always been one of the churches best weopons next to instilling fear in it's followers in order to control them.
In anycase too much has happened in the name of religion - to much in the way of murder and lies. However as always it will pour on over into just about any old place. Even here I see.
It's time to kill the Buddha people. Make your own way and make up your own minds as to what is right for you and stop being a sheep just because someone else scares you into believing something. Just because the bible exists does not mean that it's all real, or furthermore really happened. If we all believed everything we read, I would have had an alien baby by now.
Anyway good luck finding your path, or lack thereof. What ever the case may be just have fun and try not to force others to follow the same path you do - everyone is different, and we all have free will.
Personally I'm Pagan. Always have been and always will be.
Free will is a great thing..
To even consider that there is only one path for every person to follow is absurd. However I have respect for all beliefs even where it lacks - as in athieism for example. To follow you own path and not falter from ones personal standings and opinions is a great achievment by itself but to have religeous tolorance is an even greater act. The truth of the matter is that all paths lead to the same center, I don't care what path you follow.
In anycase I have been a student of religeous history for many years and can tell you one thing right now. Paganism came first. The Jesus movement is roughly 2000 years old and more or less started out on very shaky ground and to this day is still not well formed. Too many of you debating over who is right and who is wrong. It gets really old rather quickly. Mind you I'm not trying to say that Pagans are any better then anyone else just because Paganism as a whole is so old, just saying that modern belief systems all have Pagan roots. However denial has always been one of the churches best weopons next to instilling fear in it's followers in order to control them.
In anycase too much has happened in the name of religion - to much in the way of murder and lies. However as always it will pour on over into just about any old place. Even here I see.
It's time to kill the Buddha people. Make your own way and make up your own minds as to what is right for you and stop being a sheep just because someone else scares you into believing something. Just because the bible exists does not mean that it's all real, or furthermore really happened. If we all believed everything we read, I would have had an alien baby by now.
Anyway good luck finding your path, or lack thereof. What ever the case may be just have fun and try not to force others to follow the same path you do - everyone is different, and we all have free will.
Well-written post Jester. I look forward to seeing more from you in the future. You bring up some very valid points, and I'd like to hear a Christian stance on these points. You hold a very respectable viewpoint on the matter, and tolerance is a thing many people lack these days. You are damned to hell for questioning God, as am I. It's quite sad if God is as closed-minded as he is made out to be, if they are right, as I mentioned earlier. Oh, and Jester, get an avatar so I remember who you are. Thanks!
@Plano: I have read the Bible front to back many times. I had religion class for 14 years, every day, before I decided to take a step back and look at things. I was at a Catholic school for all 14 years, so take it as you may, but I know the Bible, and I know the flaws with which it is ridden. Just look at the difference between the OT and NT. Did God change his mind about just about everything? I highly doubt it, or he wouldn't be very omnipotent. He goes from killing whole cities for their "sinful ways," like sodomy, to turning the other cheek? That sounds like human law / morality evolving, not God. If God knows slavery is wrong, why allow it to begin with? Or what about the Arc of the Covenant? How did they have the metals to build it unless they stole them form the Egyptians? It took hundreds of pounds of precious metals to build it, and why would these people lost in the desert bother carrying such useless weight? Or what about the Red Sea dilemma? There is no geographical way that these wanderers were anywhere near the Red Sea. They were clearly near the Reed Sea, which is a flaw in the Bible, making it fallible in any aspect. If it is God's word, how could he allow such a mistake? And if you admit it is a mistake, how could you think the Bible is the word of God?
Regardless, don't accuse me of not knowng the Bible. I've read it front to back many times, as I stated before, and noticed dysfluencies. If you choose to ignore these flaws is up to you. I just don't understand how you can damn people to hell for disagreeing with such a book. That's the problem I have with Christians in general. Others respect your beliefs, but you don't respect theirs. It's quite sad, and I think you are the ones with a greater chance of going to hell if it actually exists. The NT is all about acceptance, and you guys seem to forget that and use the OT opinion on disbelievers, then turn around and say the OT is wrong on things like slavery, but not homosexuality. This selective retention is what I don't like about some Christians. You are CHRISTIANS, not OT followers.
Are you a fundementalist Plano? I'd really like to know, as it makes some of these arguments a bit pointless. If you admit flaws in the Bible, then my last couple paragraphs were kind of preaching to the choir....
Well-written post Jester. I look forward to seeing more from you in the future. You bring up some very valid points, and I'd like to hear a Christian stance on these points. You hold a very respectable viewpoint on the matter, and tolerance is a thing many people lack these days. You are damned to hell for questioning God, as am I. It's quite sad if God is as closed-minded as he is made out to be, if they are right, as I mentioned earlier. Oh, and Jester, get an avatar so I remember who you are. Thanks! @Plano: I have read the Bible front to back many times. I had religion class for 14 years, every day, before I decided to take a step back and look at things. I was at a Catholic school for all 14 years, so take it as you may, but I know the Bible, and I know the flaws with which it is ridden. Just look at the difference between the OT and NT. DId God change his mind about just about everything? I highly doubt it, or he wouldn't be very omnipotent. He goes from killing whole cities for their "sinful ways," to turning the other cheek? That sounds like human law/morality evolving, not God. If God knows slavery is wrong, why allow it to beging with? Or what about the Arc of the Covenant? How did they have the metals to build it unless they stole them form the Egyptians? It took hundreds of pounds of precious metals to build it, and why would these people lost in the desert bother carrying such useless weight? Or what about the Red Sea dilemma? There is no geographical way that these wanderers were anywhere near the Red Sea. They were clearly near the Reed Sea, which is a flaw in the Bible, making it fallible in any aspect. If it is God's word, how could he allow such a mistake? And if you admit it is a mistake, how could you think the Bible is the word of God? Regardless, don't accuse me of not knowng the Bible. I've read it front to back many times, as I stated before, and noticed dysfluencies. If you choose to ignore these flaws is up to you. I just don't understand how you can damn people to hell for disagreeing with such a book. Are you a fundementalist Plano? I'd really like to know, as it makes some of these arguments a bit pointless. If you admit flaws in the Bible, then my last couple paragraphs were kind of preaching to the choir....
One thing I think worth mentioning is that if you start moving away from the discussion of is there/isn't there a god, and move onto doctrine and different people's view on God, you're going to find a diverse mix. So if someone starts arguing from a biblical perspective, you'll have some defend the bible to the letter, some saying the bible shouldn't be read in that way, some taking the bible in its historical context and some dismissing it in part or entirely.
I'm glad to point out that there's been no hellfire and damnation preaching at all on this thread. Nobody appears to be trying to ram anything down anyone's throats. Mostly people are just saying what they believe and how they see things. Nobody is damning anyone for questioning anything here.
You talk about intolerance. I've seen no particular evidence of that on these forums, so I'm not sure who the "they" might be that you are referring to. I don't think that having faith in what you believe is in itself necessarily closed minded. I suspect you'd find many who do believe in God may be actually pretty open minded on some of the issues about their faith.
Having said that, there are attitudes some Christians have which I have problems with, and it sounds like you've had some bad experiences in the past. I'm sure as much as anyone I dislike the evanvgelism which preaches hell first then gives you the forgiveness solution. The one that really gets me is when Christians are judgemental of others (which is not the same disagreeing in a discussion). From the way I read the bible, not judging others was fundimental to the teachings of Jesus.
I'd just like to add the question: What's so wrong with sharing your belief with others?
It's not a whole lot different from finding a great MMORPG and telling people about it, and suggesting they should try it out. Of course nobody likes having anything "shoved down their throat" which goes for MMORPGs too, and you can't force someone to try a game or like the game when they try. Actually some of the games threads on these forums aren't so different from this one
Well-written post Jester. I look forward to seeing more from you in the future. You bring up some very valid points, and I'd like to hear a Christian stance on these points. You hold a very respectable viewpoint on the matter, and tolerance is a thing many people lack these days. You are damned to hell for questioning God, as am I. It's quite sad if God is as closed-minded as he is made out to be, if they are right, as I mentioned earlier. Oh, and Jester, get an avatar so I remember who you are. Thanks! @Plano: I have read the Bible front to back many times. I had religion class for 14 years, every day, before I decided to take a step back and look at things. I was at a Catholic school for all 14 years, so take it as you may, but I know the Bible, and I know the flaws with which it is ridden. Just look at the difference between the OT and NT. DId God change his mind about just about everything? I highly doubt it, or he wouldn't be very omnipotent. He goes from killing whole cities for their "sinful ways," to turning the other cheek? That sounds like human law/morality evolving, not God. If God knows slavery is wrong, why allow it to beging with? Or what about the Arc of the Covenant? How did they have the metals to build it unless they stole them form the Egyptians? It took hundreds of pounds of precious metals to build it, and why would these people lost in the desert bother carrying such useless weight? Or what about the Red Sea dilemma? There is no geographical way that these wanderers were anywhere near the Red Sea. They were clearly near the Reed Sea, which is a flaw in the Bible, making it fallible in any aspect. If it is God's word, how could he allow such a mistake? And if you admit it is a mistake, how could you think the Bible is the word of God? Regardless, don't accuse me of not knowng the Bible. I've read it front to back many times, as I stated before, and noticed dysfluencies. If you choose to ignore these flaws is up to you. I just don't understand how you can damn people to hell for disagreeing with such a book. Are you a fundementalist Plano? I'd really like to know, as it makes some of these arguments a bit pointless. If you admit flaws in the Bible, then my last couple paragraphs were kind of preaching to the choir....
One thing I think worth mentioning is that if you start moving away from the discussion of is there/isn't there a god, and move onto doctrine and different people's view on God, you're going to find a diverse mix. So if someone starts arguing from a biblical perspective, you'll have some defend the bible to the letter, some saying the bible shouldn't be read in that way, some taking the bible in its historical context and some dismissing it in part or entirely.
I'm glad to point out that there's been no hellfire and damnation preaching at all on this thread. Nobody appears to be trying to ram anything down anyone's throats. Mostly people are just saying what they believe and how they see things. Nobody is damning anyone for questioning anything here.
You talk about intolerance. I've seen no particular evidence of that on these forums, so I'm not sure who the "they" might be that you are referring to. I don't think that having faith in what you believe is in itself necessarily closed minded. I suspect you'd find many who do believe in God may be actually pretty open minded on some of the issues about their faith.
Having said that, there are attitudes some Christians have which I have problems with, and it sounds like you've had some bad experiences in the past. I'm sure as much as anyone I dislike the evanvgelism which preaches hell first then gives you the forgiveness solution. The one that really gets me is when Christians are judgemental of others (which is not the same disagreeing in a discussion). From the way I read the bible, not judging others was fundimental to the teachings of Jesus.
You managed to write all of that and skirt every issue I presented.
Even if you aren't a fundementalist, you still believe in the majority of the Bible, so why not answer the questions I presented?
Also, since the majority of people posting in this thread that are theists are Christians, and the majority of Christian faiths damn people to hell for not believing; I feel it is pertinent to debate doctrines as opposed to overall belief. As for the damnation thing, Draenor, who I respect greatly in these threads, mentioned that those who don't accept Jesus as their savior are damned. It was his opinion of course, but it was said. And I don't see where I said "they," though if I did I am in an altered state, and was referring to Christians as a whole.
And about the way you read the Bible: Do you just disregard the OT? It is all about not forgiving people for their sins, while the NT is. So, why pick and choose which parts of the Bible to subscribe to? And feel free to answer any of the questions addressed to Plano, as I doubt anyone is on at this hour anyway.
If you're going to give God credit for all that's right with the world, like the flowers and the trees and large, brown nipples—sorry, Pat Buchanan—then you have to admit that God is responsible for the bad stuff, too, like tsunamis and ringworm, and that bad marijuana crop in '82 that gave everyone a headache.
But I just don't get it. Why, when pointless horror strikes and God smacks us around, we go to church more! It's like we're Tina Turner and God is Ike!
How come, when things go well, it's "Hallelujah!" But when they go bad, it's still, "Hallelujah!"? People can endure an endless series of Job-like hardships: their house is shredded by a tornado, their car is in a tree, the family is wiped out... "But God spared my ceramic lawn deer, thank you, Jesus!"
And we put the blame on ourselves, and say that whatever cruel, random crap happened to us happened because "God works in mysterious ways...too mysterious for stupid me to understand."
Well, sorry, but I think a little more of myself and my fellow humans than that. I don't know the answers to the big cosmic questions. No one does. But I do know there's no reason for a cleft lip or a mine collapsing, or all that traffic on the 101.
Mysterious ways? You know what else works in mysterious ways? A microwave. It stays cool but the food gets hot! It's a mystery! Let's worship it. No, let's not. Let's not thank God for His mercy or blame Him when you die from eating bad spinach. On the fifth anniversary of the national day of prayer and remembrance, let's put the blame for September 11th squarely where it belongs: on our new enemy, Iran.
The most important part of reading is reading between the lines.
I'd just like to add the question: What's so wrong with sharing your belief with others? It's not a whole lot different from finding a great MMORPG and telling people about it, and suggesting they should try it out. Of course nobody likes having anything "shoved down their throat" which goes for MMORPGs too, and you can't force someone to try a game or like the game when they try. Actually some of the games threads on these forums aren't so different from this one
God discussions are my favorite thing to talk about. That's why I always participate in these threads. I just don't like it when people tell me I'm wrong for not following a flaw-ridden book written a couple thousand years ago. I agree with you on sharing the beliefs part, though. I just disagree on what most theists based their argument upon: namely the Bible.
Look at the books written about the polytheistic cultures just a short time period before the Bible. These are dismissed now by almost everyone, yet they hold just as much relevance as the Bible. It is all heresay, so why is the Bible so accepted by our society. Do you not think we will find the answers to the unanswered questions in the Bible, and dismiss it as we did these polytheistic cultures?
Religions seem to be based on human understanding of an unanswered problem. When the problem is solved, the religion ceases to hold any credibility. So when we create matter from nothing, will we be "Gods?"
If you're going to give God credit for all that's right with the world, like the flowers and the trees and large, brown nipples—sorry, Pat Buchanan—then you have to admit that God is responsible for the bad stuff, too, like tsunamis and ringworm, and that bad marijuana crop in '82 that gave everyone a headache.
But I just don't get it. Why, when pointless horror strikes and God smacks us around, we go to church more! It's like we're Tina Turner and God is Ike!
How come, when things go well, it's "Hallelujah!" But when they go bad, it's still, "Hallelujah!"? People can endure an endless series of Job-like hardships: their house is shredded by a tornado, their car is in a tree, the family is wiped out... "But God spared my ceramic lawn deer, thank you, Jesus!"
And we put the blame on ourselves, and say that whatever cruel, random crap happened to us happened because "God works in mysterious ways...too mysterious for stupid me to understand."
Well, sorry, but I think a little more of myself and my fellow humans than that. I don't know the answers to the big cosmic questions. No one does. But I do know there's no reason for a cleft lip or a mine collapsing, or all that traffic on the 101.
Mysterious ways? You know what else works in mysterious ways? A microwave. It stays cool but the food gets hot! It's a mystery! Let's worship it. No, let's not. Let's not thank God for His mercy or blame Him when you die from eating bad spinach. On the fifth anniversary of the national day of prayer and remembrance, let's put the blame for September 11th squarely where it belongs: on our new enemy, Iran.
Very well put once again. I'm beginning to have hope for new posters. I think the OT section has more hope for these new posters than the Pub; mainly because the OT section remembers people better than the Pub. Though Pyrite, the buddy Jesus icon is taken I'm afraid. Quickly make a new one before people mistake you for one of the other reeferheads on this forum....not that there is anything wrong with wacky-tabacky, but Infliction has had that icon for a while, and drug talk is generally moderated in this forum for some reason. It's a damn shame, as it is my favorite topic next to these "God talks."
I'll have a go at answering your questions as far as I can, although I don't claim to know God's mind on all things and I'm sure many Christians may disagree with my answers. I do believe God speaks through the Bible, but I'm not claiming it's the infallible word of God. There are Christians who seem to think the Trinity is composed of Father, Son and Holy Bible - I'm not one of those.
The OT isn't entirely about not forgiving sins, although a more active and vengeful God is painted there, but just off the top of my head, God appeared to go to great lengths to get Jonah to warn a town that they were angering God, so that they could repent and avoid destruction.
My understanding of the difference in the NT is that in Jesus, God was making a new covenant with his people. So rather than changing His mind, God was providing a sacrifice for people's sins which changed his relationship with mankind and could bring them closer to him.
The question about slavery.... We do see God freeing slaves from Egypt in the OT, but I'm not sure I recall any direct commandments against slavery as such (which is what I assume you mean by allow). Jesus actually didn't tend to challenge the politics and social structure in those kind of ways. For example he told a Roman soldier to be a good soldier, and not to give it up, and in "render unto Caesar", he supports paying taxes to the Roman Empire. He did of course challenge the priests in those kind of ways, but I guess they were claiming to be representing God. Of course it could be argued that "love your neighbour as yourself" doesn't leave much room for slavery.
I couldn't say where the metal for the arc came from. Weren't those same guys making bronze bulls too?
Red Sea/Reed Sea....I guess I'd go along with the scholars who say this was a mistranslation, but then I don't really agree those who claim God made sure that the Bible was the book he wanted published at every stage of production to where it is now. There are already several different translations available, and various ones use different original manuscripts. Those who understand Hebrew and Greek can probably get more out of it and see where things can be translated in different ways etc.
Well-written post Jester. I look forward to seeing more from you in the future. You bring up some very valid points, and I'd like to hear a Christian stance on these points. You hold a very respectable viewpoint on the matter, and tolerance is a thing many people lack these days. You are damned to hell for questioning God, as am I. It's quite sad if God is as closed-minded as he is made out to be, if they are right, as I mentioned earlier. Oh, and Jester, get an avatar so I remember who you are. Thanks! @Plano: I have read the Bible front to back many times. I had religion class for 14 years, every day, before I decided to take a step back and look at things. I was at a Catholic school for all 14 years, so take it as you may, but I know the Bible, and I know the flaws with which it is ridden. Just look at the difference between the OT and NT. Did God change his mind about just about everything? I highly doubt it, or he wouldn't be very omnipotent. He goes from killing whole cities for their "sinful ways," like sodomy, to turning the other cheek? That sounds like human law / morality evolving, not God. If God knows slavery is wrong, why allow it to begin with? Or what about the Arc of the Covenant? How did they have the metals to build it unless they stole them form the Egyptians? It took hundreds of pounds of precious metals to build it, and why would these people lost in the desert bother carrying such useless weight? Or what about the Red Sea dilemma? There is no geographical way that these wanderers were anywhere near the Red Sea. They were clearly near the Reed Sea, which is a flaw in the Bible, making it fallible in any aspect. If it is God's word, how could he allow such a mistake? And if you admit it is a mistake, how could you think the Bible is the word of God? Regardless, don't accuse me of not knowng the Bible. I've read it front to back many times, as I stated before, and noticed dysfluencies. If you choose to ignore these flaws is up to you. I just don't understand how you can damn people to hell for disagreeing with such a book. That's the problem I have with Christians in general. Others respect your beliefs, but you don't respect theirs. It's quite sad, and I think you are the ones with a greater chance of going to hell if it actually exists. The NT is all about acceptance, and you guys seem to forget that and use the OT opinion on disbelievers, then turn around and say the OT is wrong on things like slavery, but not homosexuality. This selective retention is what I don't like about some Christians. You are CHRISTIANS, not OT followers. Are you a fundementalist Plano? I'd really like to know, as it makes some of these arguments a bit pointless. If you admit flaws in the Bible, then my last couple paragraphs were kind of preaching to the choir.... EDIT: Spelling and some minor points.
ah, finally. someone that actually has read the Bible. seemed like the only people qualified to bash the Bible on these forums were people that hadnt even picked it up and read it, lol.
in order to have a common base for answering questions here concerning the Bible, when you read the Bible, was it the Catholic bible, or the Bible the rest of Christianity follows?
what one has to understand about the differences between the OT and NT is that the context with which they were written is completely different. one thing that always remained the same throughout the OT and NT is the forgiving aspect of God. you say that God was all about raining fire and brimstone on whole cities that didnt conform to His laws. i would like to draw your attention to the verses just before this one-time event that you claim as happening over and over in the OT, just before God destroyed an entire city for sodomy, He sent angels down to see if there was any repentance in the city. the angels met with Abraham just before travelling to Sodom. and Abraham has an discourse with them, basicly interceding for Sodom. if there had only been 10 people in Sodom that werent evil, God would have spared the entire city. the ENTIRE city for 10 people that didnt rape innocent bystanders. if that isnt forgiving i dont know what is. btw, Sodom was a huge major city of the time.
as far as the metals for the Arc and various other holy items and such. just before the Exodus, God told Moses to tell the people to borrow from the egyptians gold and silver and all manner of other precious metals. when they did, the egyptians were very generous, very generous. then they left Egypt soon after, it wasnt stealing, they just never got the chance to repay the egyptians. they also borrowed all kinds of cattle and sheep as well. the egyptians made the hebrews very very rich before they left egypt. and the hebrews carrried it gladly because it was "precious" and because Moses had told them that it would be used for the holy items of God. see, they had this crazy idea that obeying the man of God was better than dying. ironic, that this same group did actually disobey Gods laws not too long after. but again, God shows his forgiveness and mercy by not destroying them.
slavery is a social aspect of culture. every people from the beginning of time had slavery. OT and NT alike, God never states one way or the other whether its acceptable or not. however, many times, He makes it clear that slaves should obey their masters, even in the NT, nothing changed. slavery didnt mean what it means to us back then. slavery was normal and acceptable in our society until the mid1800s. being a slave didnt mean mistreatment, like we equate it today. it was nothing more than a social class just like any other social class of the time. in many cases, the slaves of the OT and New alike chose to remain slaves to their original masters even after they were freed. yes, it was a law that after 50 years, the slaves were to be set free. God had the same stance on multiple wives. it is written in the OT that a ruler should be a husband to one wife, the NT echos this. however, many hebrews had many many wives, God never "killed" anyone for it. again, it was all about social class, not a religious thing.
as far as Reed sea vs. Red sea. dont see where this makes that significant of a difference. some argue that the original text states Reed sea and that its a mistranslation. others argue that it is meant to be Red sea. doesnt seem to be the deal breaker that you wanna make it. i never claimed that there werent mistranslations. afterall it is translated by fallable men. i do believe that the important points and ideals and such are intact.
now on to the important issues. i have never damned anyone to hell, ever....... yes, it is a fundamental belief that sinners will have their place in hell in Christianity. i am sorry, but i dont see how that equates to me putting you in hell. last i checked its God job to judge. i dont judge anyone, if you dont wanna believe like me, dont. im not cramming anything down anyones throat. never have. sorry if me fundamental beliefs offend you. i unfortunately, cant do anything about that. dont hate me because of me religion, i promise you that you will never hear me say anything close to youre going to hell for not sharing me beliefs. thats part of being a Christian, Jesus never condemned anyone to hell. neither do i.
btw, i wast accusing you of not knowing the Bible, i was asking if you knew the Bible. and clearly, i was right about the majority of people on this forum not ever reading the Bible, yet still blinding following the athiests and agnostics that claim that its false. if youve read it, great.
i do have to take issue with your statement about how, "others respect your religion, but you dont respect theirs". that is clearly not true at all. (e.g. this forum.) i respect everyones views no matter how stupid or illogical. yet, ive been called "clinicly insane" and superstious, and bigot, and pretty much every other possible insult that a religious person can be called, in this forum. so dont talk to me about "respect for others".
i dont have selective retention of beliefs. the same ideals that permeate the OT follow into the NT. nothing changes. the OT is the cold hard law of God. the NT is the application of said law of God. the OT shows us what God likes and hates. the NT shows us how to live like Him.
if you need more examples of OT forgiveness and mercy, just ask. there are a million and one examples of it. it carries into the NT clearly.
nope, not fundementalist. closer to pentacostal.
i intentionally left out doctrine in these discussions, because clearly that wasnt what this thread was about. but i wouldnt want to be accused of skirting the questions you posed *wink* so i answered them. not every Christian is going to have the same viewpoint as i do. honestly, i appears to me that you wanted me to answer these questions so that other Christians would disagree with mine, and start arguing with me. then you could point that out as inconsistancy and say that thats why you believe were all wrong. if that is the case, i think youre going to be disappointed, lol. if thats not the case, then you have your answers. of course, i know that youll twist me answers and refute them and state how im wrong. but i wanted to show you that i do actually know abit about what im talking about.
EDIT: like egg, i dont believe in a "Trinity" either. One God, ftw.
If you're going to give God credit for all that's right with the world, like the flowers and the trees and large, brown nipples—sorry, Pat Buchanan—then you have to admit that God is responsible for the bad stuff, too, like tsunamis and ringworm, and that bad marijuana crop in '82 that gave everyone a headache.
But I just don't get it. Why, when pointless horror strikes and God smacks us around, we go to church more! It's like we're Tina Turner and God is Ike!
How come, when things go well, it's "Hallelujah!" But when they go bad, it's still, "Hallelujah!"? People can endure an endless series of Job-like hardships: their house is shredded by a tornado, their car is in a tree, the family is wiped out... "But God spared my ceramic lawn deer, thank you, Jesus!"
And we put the blame on ourselves, and say that whatever cruel, random crap happened to us happened because "God works in mysterious ways...too mysterious for stupid me to understand."
Well, sorry, but I think a little more of myself and my fellow humans than that. I don't know the answers to the big cosmic questions. No one does. But I do know there's no reason for a cleft lip or a mine collapsing, or all that traffic on the 101.
Mysterious ways? You know what else works in mysterious ways? A microwave. It stays cool but the food gets hot! It's a mystery! Let's worship it. No, let's not. Let's not thank God for His mercy or blame Him when you die from eating bad spinach. On the fifth anniversary of the national day of prayer and remembrance, let's put the blame for September 11th squarely where it belongs: on our new enemy, Iran.
Gonna have to cut this short as I'm only home for lunch for another 10 or so minutes. Just trying to keep up!
Depending on your view point, and taking from yours I would explain it like this:
God (or however you may call the divine) simply put you here on earth, gave your free will, and simple sent your on your way. What you do with your life is up to you. Lots of people like to blame everyone, and everything else for the negative acts of nature, and the things that happen to them. Well the truth of the matter is that we all must take responsibility for our own actions. Life is not as random as we all would like to believe. Sometimes we may not understand the things that happen, but they happen for a reason nonetheless. An old gypsy lady once told me that if I wanted to know my future, I need to look at what I'm doing right now to create it. What she meant was that we are in control of our lives, and our actions.
The negative acts in life have their reasons also. Some adhere to the theory of balance whereas you need both a positive and negative force in life in order to keep things interesting. If only one of these two were to exist life would be not only boring, but meaningless. Life is about lessons, and learning and without both sides what's the point?
Mind you I don't have time to really get deep into this discussion atm but I have at least tried to touch to surface as why "bad things happen". Whether you believe that "God" has anything to do with them, or perhaps like me, see if as a matter of cause and effect (Karma) the choice(s) you make, and whatever theory you adhere to are really all the same.
modjoe86 - I'll work on getting an avatar this weekend. Glad you liked the post.
Gotta keep things interesting, or it just gets stagnant.
The most hateful, spiteful, unforgiving people I have ever met have been religious. True. I, myself am a jerk. But the fact remains that religion has consumed rational thought. And religious people, not all but most, are just plain intolerant of others that do not believe exactly as they do.
Maybe religious people in the MMO community are different. But, I doubt it.
I'm a personal believer of the flying spaghetti monster, and/or manbearpig.
edit: And to all the people in the world trying to force the idea upon me that we're all part of some giant anthill in some omnipotent deranged psychopath's livingroom whom at any time can decide it'd be a good idea to pop open the lid and pee inside of it for his own pleasure can go to hell with their religion, pardon my french. I just for the life of me cannot fathom why 90% of people in this world WANT to believe such things, beyond all rational evidence and without proof of any sort. Not only is it easier (and more comforting, for me at least) to believe in nothing, but it just makes that much more sense.
The most hateful, spiteful, unforgiving people I have ever met have been religious. True. I, myself am a jerk. But the fact remains that religion has consumed rational thought. And religious people, not all but most, are just plain intolerant of others that do not believe exactly as they do.
Maybe religious people in the MMO community are different. But, I doubt it.
I'm sorry that's been your experience. Personally I would put that down to a failure of people, more than a failure of religion (depending on what religion we're talking about of course). Most major religions teach love and forgiveness and Christianity at least, teaches to not judge others.
Unfortunately, it's pretty common for people who are convinced they are right about something to put down others who think something else - just have a look at some of the game forums on this site where people think their mmorpg is better than one someone else plays - it's not something that's special to relgious beliefs.
As another example of how easy it can be to put someone else down for believing something different from you, you state it is a "fact" that religion has consumed rational thought. This is of course just your belief and that could easily be seen to be putting down those who have religious beliefs by suggesting they are incapable of rational thought. I suspect you'd not take it too well if a religious person implied that your thinking was always flawed because you didn't include God in your reasoning.
The most hateful, spiteful, unforgiving people I have ever met have been religious. True. I, myself am a jerk. But the fact remains that religion has consumed rational thought. And religious people, not all but most, are just plain intolerant of others that do not believe exactly as they do.
Maybe religious people in the MMO community are different. But, I doubt it.
I'm sorry that's been your experience. Personally I would put that down to a failure of people, more than a failure of religion (depending on what religion we're talking about of course). Most major religions teach love and forgiveness and Christianity at least, teaches to not judge others.
Unfortunately, it's pretty common for people who are convinced they are right about something to put down others who think something else - just have a look at some of the game forums on this site where people think their mmorpg is better than one someone else plays - it's not something that's special to relgious beliefs.
As another example of how easy it can be to put someone else down for believing something different from you, you state it is a "fact" that religion has consumed rational thought. This is of course just your belief and that could easily be seen to be putting down those who have religious beliefs by suggesting they are incapable of rational thought. I suspect you'd not take it too well if a religious person implied that your thinking was always flawed because you didn't include God in your reasoning.
well put, egg. the reason that the most hateful, spiteful, unforgiving people you ever met were religious is more than likely because most of the world is at least somewhat religious. if 90% of the worlds pop. is religious, i wonder what the odds of finding a jerk among them are, hmmmm........ what i find ironic is the fact that athiests and agnostics are in the minority, yet some of the worst experiences with hateful, spiteful, unforgiving jerks that ive personally had have been with athiests and agnostics, lol.
btw, intolerance is a human trait, not a religious trait. some of the most intolerant people i have ever met have been nonreligious.
...and maybe it's a good thing that those hateful people you met are religious. Perhaps they'll learn some love and tolerance from it - sounds to me like religion is just what they need.
I'm sorry that's been your experience. Personally I would put that down to a failure of people, more than a failure of religion (depending on what religion we're talking about of course). Most major religions teach love and forgiveness and Christianity at least, teaches to not judge others. Unfortunately, it's pretty common for people who are convinced they are right about something to put down others who think something else - just have a look at some of the game forums on this site where people think their mmorpg is better than one someone else plays - it's not something that's special to relgious beliefs. As another example of how easy it can be to put someone else down for believing something different from you, you state it is a "fact" that religion has consumed rational thought. This is of course just your belief and that could easily be seen to be putting down those who have religious beliefs by suggesting they are incapable of rational thought. I suspect you'd not take it too well if a religious person implied that your thinking was always flawed because you didn't include God in your reasoning.
well put, egg. the reason that the most hateful, spiteful, unforgiving people you ever met were religious is more than likely because most of the world is at least somewhat religious. if 90% of the worlds pop. is religious, i wonder what the odds of finding a jerk among them are, hmmmm........ what i find ironic is the fact that athiests and agnostics are in the minority, yet some of the worst experiences with hateful, spiteful, unforgiving jerks that ive personally had have been with athiests and agnostics, lol.
btw, intolerance is a human trait, not a religious trait. some of the most intolerant people i have ever met have been nonreligious.
While you guys have points on the human nature, a lot of religious dogmas and doctrines demote critical and abstract thinking. Agnosticism may be extremely zealous in promoting the two, but just ask yourself:
... By default, dogmas and lack thereof ...
1. Which is more ignorant?
I'm not going to mention atheism, because I classify it as non-dogmatic theism.
I'm sorry that's been your experience. Personally I would put that down to a failure of people, more than a failure of religion (depending on what religion we're talking about of course). Most major religions teach love and forgiveness and Christianity at least, teaches to not judge others. Unfortunately, it's pretty common for people who are convinced they are right about something to put down others who think something else - just have a look at some of the game forums on this site where people think their mmorpg is better than one someone else plays - it's not something that's special to relgious beliefs. As another example of how easy it can be to put someone else down for believing something different from you, you state it is a "fact" that religion has consumed rational thought. This is of course just your belief and that could easily be seen to be putting down those who have religious beliefs by suggesting they are incapable of rational thought. I suspect you'd not take it too well if a religious person implied that your thinking was always flawed because you didn't include God in your reasoning.
well put, egg. the reason that the most hateful, spiteful, unforgiving people you ever met were religious is more than likely because most of the world is at least somewhat religious. if 90% of the worlds pop. is religious, i wonder what the odds of finding a jerk among them are, hmmmm........ what i find ironic is the fact that athiests and agnostics are in the minority, yet some of the worst experiences with hateful, spiteful, unforgiving jerks that ive personally had have been with athiests and agnostics, lol.
btw, intolerance is a human trait, not a religious trait. some of the most intolerant people i have ever met have been nonreligious.
While you guys have points on the human nature, a lot of religious dogmas and doctrines demote critical and abstract thinking. Agnosticism may be extremely zealous in promoting the two, but just ask yourself:
... By default, dogmas and lack thereof ...
1. Which is more ignorant?
I'm not going to mention atheism, because I classify it as non-dogmatic theism. ignorance, like intolerance, is a human trait, not a religious trait.
You people take shit too seriously. I post in jest. Why? This is an MMORPG off-topic forum. It holds no credibility.
Why are you retards so serious about a bunch of crap that really makes no difference at all?
Hell, you should see my last post on the console thread. Do you really think I am serious?
Well, yeah, some of you do.
its called a discussion. thats what were having. if you didnt want to be a part of it, you shouldnt have posted. were posting in seriousness because were discussing this. we were discussing it before you came, well be discussing it after you leave. if you want to joke, fine, lol. we can joke, but dont treat us like we gotta stop discussing it as soon as you come in here calling everyone retard and such. some of us look at that as disrespectful.
While you guys have points on the human nature, a lot of religious dogmas and doctrines demote critical and abstract thinking. Agnosticism may be extremely zealous in promoting the two, but just ask yourself:
... By default, dogmas and lack thereof ...
1. Which is more ignorant?
I'm not going to mention atheism, because I classify it as non-dogmatic theism.
ignorance, like intolerance, is a human trait, not a religious trait. I think you missed the point. Most religions, christianity and islam included, demote critical and abstract thinking in their holy texts. The whole premise of a certain omnipotent power/presence gives room for ignorance. It gives people the impression that they're not in control, when there is much evidence otherwise (you can do things with your life if you try. Especially true for educating yourself, something which most people don't seem to appreciate).
Now I'm not saying agnostics are in any more control than theists or atheists, due to the fact that questioning everything may lead to a very difficult existence in society. Religious people believe that there is control, there is an omnipotent presence that will ultimately go over our feeble efforts in some way or another. To me believing in this promotes ignorance. More so than zealously pursuing questions that don't lead to much progress(a negative side to agnosticism).
While you guys have points on the human nature, a lot of religious dogmas and doctrines demote critical and abstract thinking. Agnosticism may be extremely zealous in promoting the two, but just ask yourself:
... By default, dogmas and lack thereof ...
1. Which is more ignorant?
I'm not going to mention atheism, because I classify it as non-dogmatic theism.
ignorance, like intolerance, is a human trait, not a religious trait.I think you missed the point. Most religions, christianity and islam included, demote critical and abstract thinking in their holy texts. The whole premise of a certain omnipotent power/presence gives room for ignorance. It gives people the impression that they're not in control, when there is much evidence otherwise (you can do things with your life if you try. Especially true for educating yourself, something which most people don't seem to appreciate).
Now I'm not saying agnostics are in any more control than theists or atheists, due to the fact that questioning everything may lead to a very difficult existence in society. Religious people believe that there is control, there is an omnipotent presence that will ultimately go over our feeble efforts in some way or another. To me believing in this promotes ignorance. More so than zealously pursuing questions that don't lead to much progress(a negative side to agnosticism).
Can you give some examples of texts which demote critical and abstract thinking? It's hard to comment on that without knowing quite what you mean.
I do believe religion has in history been manipulated sometimes by those in power to try and gain control over people and also I believe that often a religious groups can get confused betweentradition/culture and holy teaching, I'm not sure how much this is intrisic to the religions or more of a human characteristic again.
I guess I can see what you mean about how some people might be happy to just trust in God over things they don't understand, rather than to ask questions and try to make new discoveries. It's hard to know what the same people would do if they weren't religious though. On the other hand I believe Einstein considered himself to be learning more about the mind of God as he persued physics, so perhaps it can work both ways.
Can you give some examples of texts which demote critical and abstract thinking? It's hard to comment on that without knowing quite what you mean. I do believe religion has in history been manipulated sometimes by those in power to try and gain control over people and also I believe that often a religious groups can get confused betweentradition/culture and holy teaching, I'm not sure how much this is intrisic to the religions or more of a human characteristic again. I guess I can see what you mean about how some people might be happy to just trust in God over things they don't understand, rather than to ask questions and try to make new discoveries. It's hard to know what the same people would do if they weren't religious though. On the other hand I believe Einstein considered himself to be learning more about the mind of God as he persued physics, so perhaps it can work both ways.
The seventh deadly sin: Pride. You should be humble towards your God and not question him. The deadly sins as a concept in itself.
The ten commandments. Restrictive in nature.
Yeah I know. Old testament. But that's what Christianity is built upon.
With Islam and Judaism, the whole rites and traditions thing is not prone to change or question.
The more you interpret religion, the less of a theist and the more of an agnostic you are. But if you take someone else's interpretation of the original holy texts as the complete truth on religion (what most people do) you're an utter ignoramus. Offence intended to those who do it. Theology is self-education, respect to people who delve in it, especially if you drop your beliefs while at it.
While you guys have points on the human nature, a lot of religious dogmas and doctrines demote critical and abstract thinking. Agnosticism may be extremely zealous in promoting the two, but just ask yourself:
... By default, dogmas and lack thereof ...
1. Which is more ignorant?
I'm not going to mention atheism, because I classify it as non-dogmatic theism.
ignorance, like intolerance, is a human trait, not a religious trait. I think you missed the point. Most religions, christianity and islam included, demote critical and abstract thinking in their holy texts. The whole premise of a certain omnipotent power/presence gives room for ignorance. It gives people the impression that they're not in control, when there is much evidence otherwise (you can do things with your life if you try. Especially true for educating yourself, something which most people don't seem to appreciate).
Now I'm not saying agnostics are in any more control than theists or atheists, due to the fact that questioning everything may lead to a very difficult existence in society. Religious people believe that there is control, there is an omnipotent presence that will ultimately go over our feeble efforts in some way or another. To me believing in this promotes ignorance. More so than zealously pursuing questions that don't lead to much progress(a negative side to agnosticism). i missed nothing. as i said, ignorance is a human trait. there are just as many athiests and agnostics that are content to just ignorantly believe what they are told as Christians and other religious people. no "holy texts" demote critical and abstract thinking. there have been governments and churches that did, but no scripture ever has. again, you are blaming religion for something that would exist even without religion.
Comments
That flies in the face of what Jesus said to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43
on the contrary, when the thief recognized his Lord, he did worship Him. up till this point in his life, he hadnt know Jesus. when he met the Lord, he gave his life to him. read up one verse.
So, where does it say you have to had faith for some time period? It doesn't. Jesus said what he did because the thief's repentence was *genuine* not because of how long he believed.
The thief repented his ways before he died and Jesus accepted it and said what he did. Oddly enough, this is the sole person in the Greek scriptures who Jesus promises his Father's kingdom to.
Ah fuck it, i'm out of this thread. What a *fucking* waste of time discussing any of this is...
yeah, i dont disagree with you. his repentence was "genuine". where are we disagreeing?______________________________
Free will is a great thing..
To even consider that there is only one path for every person to follow is absurd. However I have respect for all beliefs even where it lacks - as in athieism for example. To follow you own path and not falter from ones personal standings and opinions is a great achievment by itself but to have religeous tolorance is an even greater act. The truth of the matter is that all paths lead to the same center, I don't care what path you follow.
In anycase I have been a student of religeous history for many years and can tell you one thing right now. Paganism came first. The Jesus movement is roughly 2000 years old and more or less started out on very shaky ground and to this day is still not well formed. Too many of you debating over who is right and who is wrong. It gets really old rather quickly. Mind you I'm not trying to say that Pagans are any better then anyone else just because Paganism as a whole is so old, just saying that modern belief systems all have Pagan roots. However denial has always been one of the churches best weopons next to instilling fear in it's followers in order to control them.
In anycase too much has happened in the name of religion - to much in the way of murder and lies. However as always it will pour on over into just about any old place. Even here I see.
It's time to kill the Buddha people. Make your own way and make up your own minds as to what is right for you and stop being a sheep just because someone else scares you into believing something. Just because the bible exists does not mean that it's all real, or furthermore really happened. If we all believed everything we read, I would have had an alien baby by now.
Anyway good luck finding your path, or lack thereof. What ever the case may be just have fun and try not to force others to follow the same path you do - everyone is different, and we all have free will.
Well-written post Jester. I look forward to seeing more from you in the future. You bring up some very valid points, and I'd like to hear a Christian stance on these points. You hold a very respectable viewpoint on the matter, and tolerance is a thing many people lack these days. You are damned to hell for questioning God, as am I. It's quite sad if God is as closed-minded as he is made out to be, if they are right, as I mentioned earlier. Oh, and Jester, get an avatar so I remember who you are. Thanks!
@Plano: I have read the Bible front to back many times. I had religion class for 14 years, every day, before I decided to take a step back and look at things. I was at a Catholic school for all 14 years, so take it as you may, but I know the Bible, and I know the flaws with which it is ridden. Just look at the difference between the OT and NT. Did God change his mind about just about everything? I highly doubt it, or he wouldn't be very omnipotent. He goes from killing whole cities for their "sinful ways," like sodomy, to turning the other cheek? That sounds like human law / morality evolving, not God. If God knows slavery is wrong, why allow it to begin with? Or what about the Arc of the Covenant? How did they have the metals to build it unless they stole them form the Egyptians? It took hundreds of pounds of precious metals to build it, and why would these people lost in the desert bother carrying such useless weight? Or what about the Red Sea dilemma? There is no geographical way that these wanderers were anywhere near the Red Sea. They were clearly near the Reed Sea, which is a flaw in the Bible, making it fallible in any aspect. If it is God's word, how could he allow such a mistake? And if you admit it is a mistake, how could you think the Bible is the word of God?
Regardless, don't accuse me of not knowng the Bible. I've read it front to back many times, as I stated before, and noticed dysfluencies. If you choose to ignore these flaws is up to you. I just don't understand how you can damn people to hell for disagreeing with such a book. That's the problem I have with Christians in general. Others respect your beliefs, but you don't respect theirs. It's quite sad, and I think you are the ones with a greater chance of going to hell if it actually exists. The NT is all about acceptance, and you guys seem to forget that and use the OT opinion on disbelievers, then turn around and say the OT is wrong on things like slavery, but not homosexuality. This selective retention is what I don't like about some Christians. You are CHRISTIANS, not OT followers.
Are you a fundementalist Plano? I'd really like to know, as it makes some of these arguments a bit pointless. If you admit flaws in the Bible, then my last couple paragraphs were kind of preaching to the choir....
EDIT: Spelling and some minor points.
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One thing I think worth mentioning is that if you start moving away from the discussion of is there/isn't there a god, and move onto doctrine and different people's view on God, you're going to find a diverse mix. So if someone starts arguing from a biblical perspective, you'll have some defend the bible to the letter, some saying the bible shouldn't be read in that way, some taking the bible in its historical context and some dismissing it in part or entirely.
I'm glad to point out that there's been no hellfire and damnation preaching at all on this thread. Nobody appears to be trying to ram anything down anyone's throats. Mostly people are just saying what they believe and how they see things. Nobody is damning anyone for questioning anything here.
You talk about intolerance. I've seen no particular evidence of that on these forums, so I'm not sure who the "they" might be that you are referring to. I don't think that having faith in what you believe is in itself necessarily closed minded. I suspect you'd find many who do believe in God may be actually pretty open minded on some of the issues about their faith.
Having said that, there are attitudes some Christians have which I have problems with, and it sounds like you've had some bad experiences in the past. I'm sure as much as anyone I dislike the evanvgelism which preaches hell first then gives you the forgiveness solution. The one that really gets me is when Christians are judgemental of others (which is not the same disagreeing in a discussion). From the way I read the bible, not judging others was fundimental to the teachings of Jesus.
I'd just like to add the question: What's so wrong with sharing your belief with others?
It's not a whole lot different from finding a great MMORPG and telling people about it, and suggesting they should try it out. Of course nobody likes having anything "shoved down their throat" which goes for MMORPGs too, and you can't force someone to try a game or like the game when they try. Actually some of the games threads on these forums aren't so different from this one
One thing I think worth mentioning is that if you start moving away from the discussion of is there/isn't there a god, and move onto doctrine and different people's view on God, you're going to find a diverse mix. So if someone starts arguing from a biblical perspective, you'll have some defend the bible to the letter, some saying the bible shouldn't be read in that way, some taking the bible in its historical context and some dismissing it in part or entirely.
I'm glad to point out that there's been no hellfire and damnation preaching at all on this thread. Nobody appears to be trying to ram anything down anyone's throats. Mostly people are just saying what they believe and how they see things. Nobody is damning anyone for questioning anything here.
You talk about intolerance. I've seen no particular evidence of that on these forums, so I'm not sure who the "they" might be that you are referring to. I don't think that having faith in what you believe is in itself necessarily closed minded. I suspect you'd find many who do believe in God may be actually pretty open minded on some of the issues about their faith.
Having said that, there are attitudes some Christians have which I have problems with, and it sounds like you've had some bad experiences in the past. I'm sure as much as anyone I dislike the evanvgelism which preaches hell first then gives you the forgiveness solution. The one that really gets me is when Christians are judgemental of others (which is not the same disagreeing in a discussion). From the way I read the bible, not judging others was fundimental to the teachings of Jesus.
You managed to write all of that and skirt every issue I presented.
Even if you aren't a fundementalist, you still believe in the majority of the Bible, so why not answer the questions I presented?
Also, since the majority of people posting in this thread that are theists are Christians, and the majority of Christian faiths damn people to hell for not believing; I feel it is pertinent to debate doctrines as opposed to overall belief. As for the damnation thing, Draenor, who I respect greatly in these threads, mentioned that those who don't accept Jesus as their savior are damned. It was his opinion of course, but it was said. And I don't see where I said "they," though if I did I am in an altered state, and was referring to Christians as a whole.
And about the way you read the Bible: Do you just disregard the OT? It is all about not forgiving people for their sins, while the NT is. So, why pick and choose which parts of the Bible to subscribe to? And feel free to answer any of the questions addressed to Plano, as I doubt anyone is on at this hour anyway.
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But I just don't get it. Why, when pointless horror strikes and God smacks us around, we go to church more! It's like we're Tina Turner and God is Ike!
How come, when things go well, it's "Hallelujah!" But when they go bad, it's still, "Hallelujah!"? People can endure an endless series of Job-like hardships: their house is shredded by a tornado, their car is in a tree, the family is wiped out... "But God spared my ceramic lawn deer, thank you, Jesus!"
And we put the blame on ourselves, and say that whatever cruel, random crap happened to us happened because "God works in mysterious ways...too mysterious for stupid me to understand."
Well, sorry, but I think a little more of myself and my fellow humans than that. I don't know the answers to the big cosmic questions. No one does. But I do know there's no reason for a cleft lip or a mine collapsing, or all that traffic on the 101.
Mysterious ways? You know what else works in mysterious ways? A microwave. It stays cool but the food gets hot! It's a mystery! Let's worship it. No, let's not. Let's not thank God for His mercy or blame Him when you die from eating bad spinach. On the fifth anniversary of the national day of prayer and remembrance, let's put the blame for September 11th squarely where it belongs: on our new enemy, Iran.
The most important part of reading is reading between the lines.
God discussions are my favorite thing to talk about. That's why I always participate in these threads. I just don't like it when people tell me I'm wrong for not following a flaw-ridden book written a couple thousand years ago. I agree with you on sharing the beliefs part, though. I just disagree on what most theists based their argument upon: namely the Bible.
Look at the books written about the polytheistic cultures just a short time period before the Bible. These are dismissed now by almost everyone, yet they hold just as much relevance as the Bible. It is all heresay, so why is the Bible so accepted by our society. Do you not think we will find the answers to the unanswered questions in the Bible, and dismiss it as we did these polytheistic cultures?
Religions seem to be based on human understanding of an unanswered problem. When the problem is solved, the religion ceases to hold any credibility. So when we create matter from nothing, will we be "Gods?"
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I'll have a go at answering your questions as far as I can, although I don't claim to know God's mind on all things and I'm sure many Christians may disagree with my answers. I do believe God speaks through the Bible, but I'm not claiming it's the infallible word of God. There are Christians who seem to think the Trinity is composed of Father, Son and Holy Bible - I'm not one of those.
The OT isn't entirely about not forgiving sins, although a more active and vengeful God is painted there, but just off the top of my head, God appeared to go to great lengths to get Jonah to warn a town that they were angering God, so that they could repent and avoid destruction.
My understanding of the difference in the NT is that in Jesus, God was making a new covenant with his people. So rather than changing His mind, God was providing a sacrifice for people's sins which changed his relationship with mankind and could bring them closer to him.
The question about slavery.... We do see God freeing slaves from Egypt in the OT, but I'm not sure I recall any direct commandments against slavery as such (which is what I assume you mean by allow). Jesus actually didn't tend to challenge the politics and social structure in those kind of ways. For example he told a Roman soldier to be a good soldier, and not to give it up, and in "render unto Caesar", he supports paying taxes to the Roman Empire. He did of course challenge the priests in those kind of ways, but I guess they were claiming to be representing God. Of course it could be argued that "love your neighbour as yourself" doesn't leave much room for slavery.
I couldn't say where the metal for the arc came from. Weren't those same guys making bronze bulls too?
Red Sea/Reed Sea....I guess I'd go along with the scholars who say this was a mistranslation, but then I don't really agree those who claim God made sure that the Bible was the book he wanted published at every stage of production to where it is now. There are already several different translations available, and various ones use different original manuscripts. Those who understand Hebrew and Greek can probably get more out of it and see where things can be translated in different ways etc.
in order to have a common base for answering questions here concerning the Bible, when you read the Bible, was it the Catholic bible, or the Bible the rest of Christianity follows?
what one has to understand about the differences between the OT and NT is that the context with which they were written is completely different. one thing that always remained the same throughout the OT and NT is the forgiving aspect of God. you say that God was all about raining fire and brimstone on whole cities that didnt conform to His laws. i would like to draw your attention to the verses just before this one-time event that you claim as happening over and over in the OT, just before God destroyed an entire city for sodomy, He sent angels down to see if there was any repentance in the city. the angels met with Abraham just before travelling to Sodom. and Abraham has an discourse with them, basicly interceding for Sodom. if there had only been 10 people in Sodom that werent evil, God would have spared the entire city. the ENTIRE city for 10 people that didnt rape innocent bystanders. if that isnt forgiving i dont know what is. btw, Sodom was a huge major city of the time.
as far as the metals for the Arc and various other holy items and such. just before the Exodus, God told Moses to tell the people to borrow from the egyptians gold and silver and all manner of other precious metals. when they did, the egyptians were very generous, very generous. then they left Egypt soon after, it wasnt stealing, they just never got the chance to repay the egyptians
slavery is a social aspect of culture. every people from the beginning of time had slavery. OT and NT alike, God never states one way or the other whether its acceptable or not. however, many times, He makes it clear that slaves should obey their masters, even in the NT, nothing changed. slavery didnt mean what it means to us back then. slavery was normal and acceptable in our society until the mid1800s. being a slave didnt mean mistreatment, like we equate it today. it was nothing more than a social class just like any other social class of the time. in many cases, the slaves of the OT and New alike chose to remain slaves to their original masters even after they were freed. yes, it was a law that after 50 years, the slaves were to be set free. God had the same stance on multiple wives. it is written in the OT that a ruler should be a husband to one wife, the NT echos this. however, many hebrews had many many wives, God never "killed" anyone for it. again, it was all about social class, not a religious thing.
as far as Reed sea vs. Red sea. dont see where this makes that significant of a difference. some argue that the original text states Reed sea and that its a mistranslation. others argue that it is meant to be Red sea. doesnt seem to be the deal breaker that you wanna make it. i never claimed that there werent mistranslations. afterall it is translated by fallable men. i do believe that the important points and ideals and such are intact.
now on to the important issues. i have never damned anyone to hell, ever....... yes, it is a fundamental belief that sinners will have their place in hell in Christianity. i am sorry, but i dont see how that equates to me putting you in hell. last i checked its God job to judge. i dont judge anyone, if you dont wanna believe like me, dont. im not cramming anything down anyones throat. never have. sorry if me fundamental beliefs offend you. i unfortunately, cant do anything about that. dont hate me because of me religion, i promise you that you will never hear me say anything close to youre going to hell for not sharing me beliefs. thats part of being a Christian, Jesus never condemned anyone to hell. neither do i.
btw, i wast accusing you of not knowing the Bible, i was asking if you knew the Bible. and clearly, i was right about the majority of people on this forum not ever reading the Bible, yet still blinding following the athiests and agnostics that claim that its false. if youve read it, great.
i do have to take issue with your statement about how, "others respect your religion, but you dont respect theirs". that is clearly not true at all. (e.g. this forum.) i respect everyones views no matter how stupid or illogical. yet, ive been called "clinicly insane" and superstious, and bigot, and pretty much every other possible insult that a religious person can be called, in this forum. so dont talk to me about "respect for others".
i dont have selective retention of beliefs. the same ideals that permeate the OT follow into the NT. nothing changes. the OT is the cold hard law of God. the NT is the application of said law of God. the OT shows us what God likes and hates. the NT shows us how to live like Him.
if you need more examples of OT forgiveness and mercy, just ask. there are a million and one examples of it. it carries into the NT clearly.
nope, not fundementalist. closer to pentacostal.
i intentionally left out doctrine in these discussions, because clearly that wasnt what this thread was about. but i wouldnt want to be accused of skirting the questions you posed *wink* so i answered them. not every Christian is going to have the same viewpoint as i do. honestly, i appears to me that you wanted me to answer these questions so that other Christians would disagree with mine, and start arguing with me. then you could point that out as inconsistancy and say that thats why you believe were all wrong. if that is the case, i think youre going to be disappointed, lol. if thats not the case, then you have your answers. of course, i know that youll twist me answers and refute them and state how im wrong. but i wanted to show you that i do actually know abit about what im talking about.
EDIT: like egg, i dont believe in a "Trinity" either. One God, ftw.
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Depending on your view point, and taking from yours I would explain it like this:
God (or however you may call the divine) simply put you here on earth, gave your free will, and simple sent your on your way. What you do with your life is up to you. Lots of people like to blame everyone, and everything else for the negative acts of nature, and the things that happen to them. Well the truth of the matter is that we all must take responsibility for our own actions. Life is not as random as we all would like to believe. Sometimes we may not understand the things that happen, but they happen for a reason nonetheless. An old gypsy lady once told me that if I wanted to know my future, I need to look at what I'm doing right now to create it. What she meant was that we are in control of our lives, and our actions.
The negative acts in life have their reasons also. Some adhere to the theory of balance whereas you need both a positive and negative force in life in order to keep things interesting. If only one of these two were to exist life would be not only boring, but meaningless. Life is about lessons, and learning and without both sides what's the point?
Mind you I don't have time to really get deep into this discussion atm but I have at least tried to touch to surface as why "bad things happen". Whether you believe that "God" has anything to do with them, or perhaps like me, see if as a matter of cause and effect (Karma) the choice(s) you make, and whatever theory you adhere to are really all the same.
modjoe86 - I'll work on getting an avatar this weekend. Glad you liked the post.
Gotta keep things interesting, or it just gets stagnant.
The most hateful, spiteful, unforgiving people I have ever met have been religious. True. I, myself am a jerk. But the fact remains that religion has consumed rational thought. And religious people, not all but most, are just plain intolerant of others that do not believe exactly as they do.
Maybe religious people in the MMO community are different. But, I doubt it.
Cartman has a big fat ass!
edit: And to all the people in the world trying to force the idea upon me that we're all part of some giant anthill in some omnipotent deranged psychopath's livingroom whom at any time can decide it'd be a good idea to pop open the lid and pee inside of it for his own pleasure can go to hell with their religion, pardon my french. I just for the life of me cannot fathom why 90% of people in this world WANT to believe such things, beyond all rational evidence and without proof of any sort. Not only is it easier (and more comforting, for me at least) to believe in nothing, but it just makes that much more sense.
I'm sorry that's been your experience. Personally I would put that down to a failure of people, more than a failure of religion (depending on what religion we're talking about of course). Most major religions teach love and forgiveness and Christianity at least, teaches to not judge others.
Unfortunately, it's pretty common for people who are convinced they are right about something to put down others who think something else - just have a look at some of the game forums on this site where people think their mmorpg is better than one someone else plays - it's not something that's special to relgious beliefs.
As another example of how easy it can be to put someone else down for believing something different from you, you state it is a "fact" that religion has consumed rational thought. This is of course just your belief and that could easily be seen to be putting down those who have religious beliefs by suggesting they are incapable of rational thought. I suspect you'd not take it too well if a religious person implied that your thinking was always flawed because you didn't include God in your reasoning.
I'm sorry that's been your experience. Personally I would put that down to a failure of people, more than a failure of religion (depending on what religion we're talking about of course). Most major religions teach love and forgiveness and Christianity at least, teaches to not judge others.
Unfortunately, it's pretty common for people who are convinced they are right about something to put down others who think something else - just have a look at some of the game forums on this site where people think their mmorpg is better than one someone else plays - it's not something that's special to relgious beliefs.
As another example of how easy it can be to put someone else down for believing something different from you, you state it is a "fact" that religion has consumed rational thought. This is of course just your belief and that could easily be seen to be putting down those who have religious beliefs by suggesting they are incapable of rational thought. I suspect you'd not take it too well if a religious person implied that your thinking was always flawed because you didn't include God in your reasoning.
well put, egg. the reason that the most hateful, spiteful, unforgiving people you ever met were religious is more than likely because most of the world is at least somewhat religious. if 90% of the worlds pop. is religious, i wonder what the odds of finding a jerk among them are, hmmmm........ what i find ironic is the fact that athiests and agnostics are in the minority, yet some of the worst experiences with hateful, spiteful, unforgiving jerks that ive personally had have been with athiests and agnostics, lol.btw, intolerance is a human trait, not a religious trait. some of the most intolerant people i have ever met have been nonreligious.
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btw, intolerance is a human trait, not a religious trait. some of the most intolerant people i have ever met have been nonreligious.
While you guys have points on the human nature, a lot of religious dogmas and doctrines demote critical and abstract thinking. Agnosticism may be extremely zealous in promoting the two, but just ask yourself:
... By default, dogmas and lack thereof ...
1. Which is more ignorant?
I'm not going to mention atheism, because I classify it as non-dogmatic theism.
btw, intolerance is a human trait, not a religious trait. some of the most intolerant people i have ever met have been nonreligious.
While you guys have points on the human nature, a lot of religious dogmas and doctrines demote critical and abstract thinking. Agnosticism may be extremely zealous in promoting the two, but just ask yourself:
... By default, dogmas and lack thereof ...
1. Which is more ignorant?
I'm not going to mention atheism, because I classify it as non-dogmatic theism. ignorance, like intolerance, is a human trait, not a religious trait.
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Why are you retards so serious about a bunch of crap that really makes no difference at all?
Hell, you should see my last post on the console thread. Do you really think I am serious?
Well, yeah, some of you do.
Cartman has a big fat ass!
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Now I'm not saying agnostics are in any more control than theists or atheists, due to the fact that questioning everything may lead to a very difficult existence in society. Religious people believe that there is control, there is an omnipotent presence that will ultimately go over our feeble efforts in some way or another. To me believing in this promotes ignorance. More so than zealously pursuing questions that don't lead to much progress(a negative side to agnosticism).
Now I'm not saying agnostics are in any more control than theists or atheists, due to the fact that questioning everything may lead to a very difficult existence in society. Religious people believe that there is control, there is an omnipotent presence that will ultimately go over our feeble efforts in some way or another. To me believing in this promotes ignorance. More so than zealously pursuing questions that don't lead to much progress(a negative side to agnosticism).
Can you give some examples of texts which demote critical and abstract thinking? It's hard to comment on that without knowing quite what you mean.
I do believe religion has in history been manipulated sometimes by those in power to try and gain control over people and also I believe that often a religious groups can get confused betweentradition/culture and holy teaching, I'm not sure how much this is intrisic to the religions or more of a human characteristic again.
I guess I can see what you mean about how some people might be happy to just trust in God over things they don't understand, rather than to ask questions and try to make new discoveries. It's hard to know what the same people would do if they weren't religious though. On the other hand I believe Einstein considered himself to be learning more about the mind of God as he persued physics, so perhaps it can work both ways.
The ten commandments. Restrictive in nature.
Yeah I know. Old testament. But that's what Christianity is built upon.
With Islam and Judaism, the whole rites and traditions thing is not prone to change or question.
The more you interpret religion, the less of a theist and the more of an agnostic you are. But if you take someone else's interpretation of the original holy texts as the complete truth on religion (what most people do) you're an utter ignoramus. Offence intended to those who do it. Theology is self-education, respect to people who delve in it, especially if you drop your beliefs while at it.
Now I'm not saying agnostics are in any more control than theists or atheists, due to the fact that questioning everything may lead to a very difficult existence in society. Religious people believe that there is control, there is an omnipotent presence that will ultimately go over our feeble efforts in some way or another. To me believing in this promotes ignorance. More so than zealously pursuing questions that don't lead to much progress(a negative side to agnosticism). i missed nothing. as i said, ignorance is a human trait. there are just as many athiests and agnostics that are content to just ignorantly believe what they are told as Christians and other religious people. no "holy texts" demote critical and abstract thinking. there have been governments and churches that did, but no scripture ever has. again, you are blaming religion for something that would exist even without religion.
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