Doesnt matter, the games concept as a whole have been done 20 times before. Fixing bugs isnt going to change the fact that the games precedents are found in 10 other current games. Thats not my opinion its a fact. This game will flop.
City of Hero's Characters: - Black Samurai - Mezmo Man - Flare -
Originally posted by Malkavian Ok I have been following this thread for some time now and it really makes me wonder with topics such as this one. Are people reviewing Beta's as a Beta, or as a Final Product? Risk Your Life is still in the "Beta Phase" is it not? Please specify if your "opinions" are directed towards the present state of Beta. It is impossible to review a Beta as the Final product. - Malkavian
"When you find yourself falling into madness... Dive." - Malkavian Proverb - MMORPG.COM Staff - Forum Stalker Malkavian@mmorpg.com
I think everyones point is like this:
A builder wants to build a wall. It is built by building up brick by brick. Now if the starting bricks are incredibly weak i.e made out of mud then no matter what material the bricks above it are made out of the wall will still be extremely weak and will probably fall down.
What am trying to say is that a game is built up in stages, if the intial client is extremely weak, and the engine/gameplay are rotten then either the beta would have to be twice as long as normal to make it playable or it will just fall down.
As for my Math equations above i said they werent accurate, but if you believe that a game can be fully beta tested using 10 people working 15 hrs a week on it (splitting with 3 other games) then you are sadly out of your mind. Most closed beta tests require at least teams of 50+ people. I should know i have been in one which never went open. Then even still with your numbers the cost of hiring just 10 beta testers would be alot more than with the 1000 free beta testers the company has gained. Why do you think every mmorpg does this? because it is GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. Business is driven by money and profit, a game is sponsered by stakeholders and the game has to be as cost economical as it can be to impress the stakeholders otherwise they will remove the funding and the game will die.
Your statistics are used to try and prove your point but at least mine are much more realistic understand how a beta test works. As a sidenote my calculations where on a much smaller scale, read my post again and you will realise i compared overall effort hours/week for a small group of 40 paid beta testers and the 1000 group (250 of which would actually beta test).
[quote]Lets say they added $2 to the monthly fee and for sake of the argument 6000 subscribers. Thats $12,000 per month and in 8 months that would be $96,000. Now do not forget that they tested 2-3 games. So lets multiply by 2. and that is $192,000 they completely made up for the cost to have the game tested by overseas ppl. Oh my!! And that is only if they released 2 games. [/quote]
Again this is a bad business strategy, as for them to cover for the extra paid beta testers they would have to increase the price of the game ppm by 2 dollars. In business even 2 dollars can make a difference. Again you show a lack of understanding for business models and innocently believe that a game can just wack on 2 dollars as it pleases to cover expenditure when in fact this game will have to compete with up to about 25-35 mmorpg games all of similar price. If this game if of a higher price than all the other games, then it wont even get the 6000 subscribers and will probably die. Business is all about being competitiveness and currently funnily enough the companies are doing exactly what i am suggesting. They are not charging 2 dollars extra for closed beta testers, they are using free unpaid beta testers, they arent out-sourcing to overseas labour.
Before you complain again, id like to reiterate i arent arguing with the fact that people are saying this game sux, im just arguing with your comment. It is quite wrong otherwise every mmorpg would be hiring people rather than gaining free beta testers.
The beta testers which are in the game if they truly believe what they are saying dont need to argue with us, because in the end your opinion is the only one which matters to you.
Beta Tested: Lineage 2, Ryzom, City of Heroes, RYL, EverQuest 2 World Of Warcraft European Truly Loved: World of Warcraft
This game is being reviewed as a beta, not as a final product. Or at least that is how I intend this to be reviewed. The person that said the thing about the wall of bricks made very good points. As of now however, the muddy brick, is the alpha stage. Like I said for those who have been reading the thread closely, this game may turn out decent, or rather it would if it were still in alpha. It should have been released into beta until the major, obvious bugs were fixed. Beta is for players to filter out the ones Alpha missed... And if alpha missed the grammatical errors... God help me...
Just to state this again... If you are here to rant the reviewers, start a reviewer ranting thread. If you are here to rant, or praise this game, feel free.
I think people are getting the wrong interpratation of this thread. This thread isnt a bashing thread. It is a review thread, so please post the pro's of this game as well. Its for the good of the public.
I don't believe I am getting back on this topic. From what I could grasp on the entries almost none of us in this forum has degrees in business or mathematics. We are in an era with dramatic lost of jobs overseas and if the chance was presented to a gaming company to have a game tested by overseas ppl who happen to have programming degrees for 4 bucks an hour who here can say that will never happen? Few of of us here have taken business ethics classes or this thread would not have been posted due to the NDA.
I don't want to argue about this money and economics situation, but for you to totally disqualify this possiblity makes you sorta naive. Truthfully speaking initially I put the comment of off-shoring beta testing as a joking to say there are other things worse than playing a crappy beta, there is not playing one at all. Upon researching it I realize my empty comment actually has ground and a slight possibility to coming to fruition than I thought. **cough**Microsoft**cough** As long as we free beta testers keep up our end of the bargain, there should be virtually nothing to worry about. Now I feel like watching Kill Bill, dun know why. **cough**Microsoft**cough**
"There is no greater mistake than the hasty conclusion that opinions are worthless because they are badly argued."
The beta testing point is only relevant to mmorpg developers, of which we are arguing about. Please provide one mmorpg that has no open beta, uses no public testers, and pay overseas workers for a pittance (which i am also against) as you suggest. Microsoft may have outsourced to another country, but this isnt an mmorpg developer.
My point being that with the great abundance of free beta testers available to nearly every game developer (even the bad ones), that it would be stupid to be pay people when free beta testers are available. Please show me some of your research relevant to the argument that THESE game developers (i.e RYL and other mmorpg NOT microsoft) are/ or would outsource to cheap slave labour overseas.
If i cant reason with you i suppose i will stop arguing, maybe if the mmorpg beta testers EVER do what you suggest then ill eat ma hat. Its just so more economical to actually use people who cost nothing as apposed to people who cost something.
Beta Tested: Lineage 2, Ryzom, City of Heroes, RYL, EverQuest 2 World Of Warcraft European Truly Loved: World of Warcraft
Beta means that the game is approaching release usually and they are load testing and tweaking it. The graphics in this game alone are absolutely dreadful ! In addition the movement is bad, its difficult to get on and when i do i often get booted off unexpectedly. I've not really got past this....where are the stunning graphics that are shown on the website.
I must be missing something somewhere, oh and yes i agree that the people playing this game are the rudest unfriendly people i've come across in a game and i've played a lot of mmorpgs.
I may log in to check occasionally but with all the upcoming games i think this one has had it !
People! Stop bagging on this game. It's still in testing. Im from the US and have been playing the RYL game in taiwan, the chinese RYL. It's really a great game. The english version is still in development and the GMs are working on all the problems. The graphics suk because they're still not in high quality.
So pls just stop bagging on the game until the full version comes out.ok?
Originally posted by Neas Your statistics are used to try and prove your point but at least mine are much more realistic understand how a beta test works. As a sidenote my calculations where on a much smaller scale, read my post again and you will realise i compared overall effort hours/week for a small group of 40 paid beta testers and the 1000 group (250 of which would actually beta test). Before you complain again, id like to reiterate i arent arguing with the fact that people are saying this game sux, im just arguing with your comment. It is quite wrong otherwise every mmorpg would be hiring people rather than gaining free beta testers.
I never brought forth any statistics or complaints... Only 1 question and a Statement.
Were you refering to someone else?
- Malkavian
"When you find yourself falling into madness... Dive." - Malkavian Proverb
- MMORPG.COM Staff - Forum Stalker Malkavian@mmorpg.com
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive"
I'm glad you let us know about the graphics, however the website has said that it was running at the higher resolution for a while now. Theres no information to indicate that this was incorrect or when the graphics will upgrade to a reasonable level. Like many of these games at the moment, the companies involved are keeping the players poorly informed. Is it any wonder that people will log in to take a look at the graphics and then run a mile. It really is time that the companies provided clear information to their potential customers. Is it really that hard ? They have forums with announcements and news sections.....but dont give out any news !
I'll have a look from time to time to see if it has got to what i consider to be minimum level for a beta but they are loosing a lot of good will from people who i'm sure are getting pretty tired of promises of the best this and the most amazing that !
Just my 2 peneth......at the end of the day we just all want to play a really good game
It's beta. i can't beleive how many people expect it to be a perfect game already, but here's my opinion: The graffix aren't so good, but i've only seen it on 800*600 as that's all they've released. the character creation is quite bland with very few choices astheticaly, but again it's beta. the interface: love the interface, it's set up for fast paced pvp and i love that. still young in the beta so can't say much about the endgame except you pretty much have to make groups for xp after lvl 10 or it's going to be very very slow. I think this game could become great, but the potential has yet to be realised.
*edite note: only use fps mode, unless just wandering around town. combat in mouse mode is as crappy as shadowbane*
As for the NDA. yeah it covers pretty much everything discussed here. but none of the testers who got their accounts through mmorpg.com or other fansites had to sign it. it's only in the application for beta testing on their main site.
Again don't post unless you read the whole thread... We dont expect it to be perfect because we realize this is a beta game... We just expect beta material, not alpha material. All 'obvious' bugs are supposed to be eliminated in alpha, and not visable in beta. Beta is to weed out the harder to find bugs.
Comments
Ok I have been following this thread for some time now and it really makes me wonder with topics such as this one.
Are people reviewing Beta's as a Beta, or as a Final Product?
Risk Your Life is still in the "Beta Phase" is it not? Please specify if your "opinions" are directed towards the present state of Beta.
It is impossible to review a Beta as the Final product.
- Malkavian
"When you find yourself falling into madness... Dive." - Malkavian Proverb
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
Forum Stalker
Malkavian@mmorpg.com
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive"
Doesnt matter, the games concept as a whole have been done 20 times before. Fixing bugs isnt going to change the fact that the games precedents are found in 10 other current games. Thats not my opinion its a fact. This game will flop.
City of Hero's Characters:
- Black Samurai - Mezmo Man - Flare -
-----------------Censored------------------
I think everyones point is like this:
A builder wants to build a wall. It is built by building up brick by brick. Now if the starting bricks are incredibly weak i.e made out of mud then no matter what material the bricks above it are made out of the wall will still be extremely weak and will probably fall down.
What am trying to say is that a game is built up in stages, if the intial client is extremely weak, and the engine/gameplay are rotten then either the beta would have to be twice as long as normal to make it playable or it will just fall down.
As for my Math equations above i said they werent accurate, but if you believe that a game can be fully beta tested using 10 people working 15 hrs a week on it (splitting with 3 other games) then you are sadly out of your mind. Most closed beta tests require at least teams of 50+ people. I should know i have been in one which never went open. Then even still with your numbers the cost of hiring just 10 beta testers would be alot more than with the 1000 free beta testers the company has gained. Why do you think every mmorpg does this? because it is GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. Business is driven by money and profit, a game is sponsered by stakeholders and the game has to be as cost economical as it can be to impress the stakeholders otherwise they will remove the funding and the game will die.
Your statistics are used to try and prove your point but at least mine are much more realistic understand how a beta test works. As a sidenote my calculations where on a much smaller scale, read my post again and you will realise i compared overall effort hours/week for a small group of 40 paid beta testers and the 1000 group (250 of which would actually beta test).
[quote]Lets say they added $2 to the monthly fee and for sake of the argument 6000 subscribers. Thats $12,000 per month and in 8 months that would be $96,000. Now do not forget that they tested 2-3 games. So lets multiply by 2. and that is $192,000 they completely made up for the cost to have the game tested by overseas ppl.
Oh my!! And that is only if they released 2 games. [/quote]
Again this is a bad business strategy, as for them to cover for the extra paid beta testers they would have to increase the price of the game ppm by 2 dollars. In business even 2 dollars can make a difference. Again you show a lack of understanding for business models and innocently believe that a game can just wack on 2 dollars as it pleases to cover expenditure when in fact this game will have to compete with up to about 25-35 mmorpg games all of similar price. If this game if of a higher price than all the other games, then it wont even get the 6000 subscribers and will probably die. Business is all about being competitiveness and currently funnily enough the companies are doing exactly what i am suggesting. They are not charging 2 dollars extra for closed beta testers, they are using free unpaid beta testers, they arent out-sourcing to overseas labour.
Before you complain again, id like to reiterate i arent arguing with the fact that people are saying this game sux, im just arguing with your comment. It is quite wrong otherwise every mmorpg would be hiring people rather than gaining free beta testers.
The beta testers which are in the game if they truly believe what they are saying dont need to argue with us, because in the end your opinion is the only one which matters to you.
Beta Tested: Lineage 2, Ryzom, City of Heroes, RYL, EverQuest 2 World Of Warcraft European
Truly Loved: World of Warcraft
This game is being reviewed as a beta, not as a final product. Or at least that is how I intend this to be reviewed. The person that said the thing about the wall of bricks made very good points. As of now however, the muddy brick, is the alpha stage. Like I said for those who have been reading the thread closely, this game may turn out decent, or rather it would if it were still in alpha. It should have been released into beta until the major, obvious bugs were fixed. Beta is for players to filter out the ones Alpha missed... And if alpha missed the grammatical errors... God help me...
Just to state this again... If you are here to rant the reviewers, start a reviewer ranting thread. If you are here to rant, or praise this game, feel free.
I think people are getting the wrong interpratation of this thread. This thread isnt a bashing thread. It is a review thread, so please post the pro's of this game as well. Its for the good of the public.
Thank you again for your time.
I don't believe I am getting back on this topic. From what I could grasp on the entries almost none of us in this forum has degrees in business or mathematics. We are in an era with dramatic lost of jobs overseas and if the chance was presented to a gaming company to have a game tested by overseas ppl who happen to have programming degrees for 4 bucks an hour who here can say that will never happen? Few of of us here have taken business ethics classes or this thread would not have been posted due to the NDA.
I don't want to argue about this money and economics situation, but for you to totally disqualify this possiblity makes you sorta naive. Truthfully speaking initially I put the comment of off-shoring beta testing as a joking to say there are other things worse than playing a crappy beta, there is not playing one at all. Upon researching it I realize my empty comment actually has ground and a slight possibility to coming to fruition than I thought. **cough**Microsoft**cough** As long as we free beta testers keep up our end of the bargain, there should be virtually nothing to worry about. Now I feel like watching Kill Bill, dun know why. **cough**Microsoft**cough**
"There is no greater mistake than the hasty conclusion that opinions are worthless because they are badly argued."
P4-3.0Ghz 800fsb
512mb DDR3200
160Gb 7200rpm HardDrive
GeForce4 Ti4200 Overclocked
level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
level 44 Fire/Kinetics Controllrr
level 36 Fire/Ice Tanker
The beta testing point is only relevant to mmorpg developers, of which we are arguing about. Please provide one mmorpg that has no open beta, uses no public testers, and pay overseas workers for a pittance (which i am also against) as you suggest. Microsoft may have outsourced to another country, but this isnt an mmorpg developer.
My point being that with the great abundance of free beta testers available to nearly every game developer (even the bad ones), that it would be stupid to be pay people when free beta testers are available. Please show me some of your research relevant to the argument that THESE game developers (i.e RYL and other mmorpg NOT microsoft) are/ or would outsource to cheap slave labour overseas.
If i cant reason with you i suppose i will stop arguing, maybe if the mmorpg beta testers EVER do what you suggest then ill eat ma hat. Its just so more economical to actually use people who cost nothing as apposed to people who cost something.
Beta Tested: Lineage 2, Ryzom, City of Heroes, RYL, EverQuest 2 World Of Warcraft European
Truly Loved: World of Warcraft
Beta means that the game is approaching release usually and they are load testing and tweaking it. The graphics in this game alone are absolutely dreadful ! In addition the movement is bad, its difficult to get on and when i do i often get booted off unexpectedly. I've not really got past this....where are the stunning graphics that are shown on the website.
I must be missing something somewhere, oh and yes i agree that the people playing this game are the rudest unfriendly people i've come across in a game and i've played a lot of mmorpgs.
I may log in to check occasionally but with all the upcoming games i think this one has had it !
People! Stop bagging on this game. It's still in testing. Im from the US and have been playing the RYL game in taiwan, the chinese RYL. It's really a great game. The english version is still in development and the GMs are working on all the problems. The graphics suk because they're still not in high quality.
So pls just stop bagging on the game until the full version comes out.ok?
I never brought forth any statistics or complaints... Only 1 question and a Statement.
Were you refering to someone else?
- Malkavian
"When you find yourself falling into madness... Dive." - Malkavian Proverb
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
Forum Stalker
Malkavian@mmorpg.com
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive"
I'm glad you let us know about the graphics, however the website has said that it was running at the higher resolution for a while now. Theres no information to indicate that this was incorrect or when the graphics will upgrade to a reasonable level. Like many of these games at the moment, the companies involved are keeping the players poorly informed. Is it any wonder that people will log in to take a look at the graphics and then run a mile. It really is time that the companies provided clear information to their potential customers. Is it really that hard ? They have forums with announcements and news sections.....but dont give out any news !
I'll have a look from time to time to see if it has got to what i consider to be minimum level for a beta but they are loosing a lot of good will from people who i'm sure are getting pretty tired of promises of the best this and the most amazing that !
Just my 2 peneth......at the end of the day we just all want to play a really good game
It's beta. i can't beleive how many people expect it to be a perfect game already, but here's my opinion: The graffix aren't so good, but i've only seen it on 800*600 as that's all they've released. the character creation is quite bland with very few choices astheticaly, but again it's beta. the interface: love the interface, it's set up for fast paced pvp and i love that. still young in the beta so can't say much about the endgame except you pretty much have to make groups for xp after lvl 10 or it's going to be very very slow. I think this game could become great, but the potential has yet to be realised.
*edite note: only use fps mode, unless just wandering around town. combat in mouse mode is as crappy as shadowbane*
As for the NDA. yeah it covers pretty much everything discussed here. but none of the testers who got their accounts through mmorpg.com or other fansites had to sign it. it's only in the application for beta testing on their main site.