i totally agree with all of this. People who come up with their own conclusion about any game, even if it was just off of rumors, they automaticly think that their opinion is the only one. Respect other peoples opinions please, not everyone likes what you like.
Any way just to add in there, i am completely surprised about this game. I never even knew what Vandguard was at first, i heard few things but i just thought it would crash and burn. Although hearing from other people it seems that Vanguard will overthrow all lol. Best graphics most diverse(class n races) and all the quests and even mounts added? Plus no zoning and no instances, no more loading times, or anything. I thnk that this game is going to be awsome. The only drawback that i could think of is, the power required to harness this game for us less fortunate players who dont have 4g's to drop on a new computer.f
You have literally no clue what you are talking about. Do some reading, I don't have time to tell you all that's different than EQ. But one is boats that you can craft and pilot yourself. EQ didn't have that, nor does any other MMO besides UO and you couldn't craft them. Cheers.
Yippee, they have boats that you can craft and pilot. Honestly I'll never get far enough into the game to do that because the game just wasn't addicting to me. I've played maybe 15 hours and its not something I'm really excited to keep going back to. The large selction of classes is very nice, probably its best feature. The huge selection of races isn't really that important since the races do not really differ all that much and its not like each continent is at war with the others. The character customization is, to me, a waste of time. I press random a few times and then start the game. How my character looks is not nearly as important to me as how the game looks and plays and is overall fun.
And I just wasn't feeling a huge fun factor. I wanted to like it, I tried to like it, but I just didn't.... I even tried out several different characters but just wasn't feeling it. Imo they should have spent more time ramping up the first 10 levels of the game and making it crazy fun than providing all kinds of needless customization(races and faces/body types, etc).
Originally posted by Nikoz78 In my many long years of playing MMORPG's I have never seen a development team more dedicated, more honest & upfront and more sincerely passionate about their creation as Vanguards producers. All can say is amazing. There is a reason people believe in these guys....
You never played CoH I take it.
Could the arrival of Vanguard on the MMO scene one day be noted as the end of the so-called "MMORPG Dark-Age" (2nd gen. era)??
I seriously doubt it. IT's nothing but a EQ1 clone with better graphics and behind the scenes "zoning". I really don't get it why you people think this game is so great. I loved EQ1 cause it was original but just sticking a new paint job on the old girl ain't making it "new".
Cheers.
that was my impression when I tried EQ2 and WoW both this past week. They're both basically EQ1 with a fancier more cumbersone interface and the VERY same combat model. I consider those 3 to be the 1st generation games because the combat model is primarily the old unix/mud type of dice rolls with graphics added to it as an afterthought.
CoH is awesome with how they married the graphics and combat into a perfect machine, not to mention the fantastic AI and enemy pathing.
I put SWG into the second generation because of the original combat model they used when the game was released. Also the crafting system and all the professions were absolutely unique and compelling... but it died a grisly death at the hands of SOE as they morphed it into a first person shooter.
Now I've read lots of posts that say Vanguard is the same ole unix/mud type of combat system as EQ and wow have... I sincerely hope not. we should be going forward on games and not backward and borrowing from the old games, even if they were successful.
Businessmen will say to re-use what worked and offer it in more colors, but as consumers that only makes for good competition. But to blow the world out of the water takes unique genius. Star Trek Online looks like the next one to look forward to.
I seriously doubt it. IT's nothing but a EQ1 clone with better graphics and behind the scenes "zoning". I really don't get it why you people think this game is so great. I loved EQ1 cause it was original but just sticking a new paint job on the old girl ain't making it "new". Cheers.
You have literally no clue what you are talking about. Do some reading, I don't have time to tell you all that's different than EQ. But one is boats that you can craft and pilot yourself. EQ didn't have that, nor does any other MMO besides UO and you couldn't craft them.
Cheers.
SWG you could craft all that same with eve. huge seemless world well been done. class system really hasnt been a good one round since Pre-CU swg and i don't think vanguard is using that. flyling mounts been done. everything you listed earlier has been done. maybe it does turn out to be a good game maybe bad either way to me it doesnt matter my troll killing days are over, but to make it out as the second coming... well maybe the second coming of eq with non instanced housing and up to date graphics but nothing that steps outside the box . maybe AOC will do that with the combat system they r using.. who knows.
Yes im very excited about the game too but I in no way believe it will be a second coming or a wow killer. I love diplomacy and the adventuring sphere isn't half bad and yes im certainly getting vanguard and playing it for awhile. I will say though that I am more excited about warhammer now as I believe that has a better chanceof being the wow killer
why does everyone talk about WoW killer this, WoW killer that? who really cares, nothing is going to kill WoW except time at this point. i dont like the game myself, but you cant argue with its success. what you should have said is, "this might not be the best game, but i will play it for a while." "i am really looking forward to trying out Warhammer though, it looks like a better game, in my opinion" because this is just flame bait, and you should have realized that.
In all seriousness, I really hope this isn't a "WoW killer" I want the bulk of their community to STAY over there where I left them, lol.
It's simply not as good as you seem to think it is.
I love when people think their opinion is the only right one. The term "good" is wholly subjective. Just because you have been staring at a hole in the ground for five months doesn't mean you know the difference between it and your ass.
I also think Vanguard will earn it's place in MMO history. It has a HUGE seamless world without a single instance, largest race and class selection ever, plethora quests ranging from the easy to hair-pullingly hard, an insane view distance and THE best graphics in any MMO in current release. Add to that player craftable (and pilotable) ships, non-instanced housing and enough different mounts, ground based and flying, to choke a hydra, Vanguard has it ALL.
I don't think that my opinion is the only right one, just MY opinion. You seem to skip right past the intellectual part of the debate and head straight for personal attacks. This is a sign that you probably have much more of a comfort level talking with your fingers and a keyboard than having to actually deal with people. You have your opinion and I have mine, the difference seems to be that I respect that everyone has their own.
In my many long years of playing MMORPG's I have never seen a development team more dedicated, more honest & upfront and more sincerely passionate about their creation as Vanguards producers. All can say is amazing. There is a reason people believe in these guys....
Could the arrival of Vanguard on the MMO scene one day be noted as the end of the so-called "MMORPG Dark-Age" (2nd gen. era)??
What I am sure of is there has never been a more wonderfully complex, detailed and immersive virtual world than that of Telon.
The Force is strong with this one.
What I am sure of there has never been a more wonderfully rushed, bugged and unpolished pile of stinking crap than that of the world of Telon.
While the above statement is not mentally stimulating, I do believe it is metaphorically correct.
This is only my opinion and I wish those that enjoy the game the best of luck.
They should change the title to Dark and Light 2,lol
In my many long years of playing MMORPG's I have never seen a development team more dedicated, more honest & upfront and more sincerely passionate about their creation as Vanguards producers. All can say is amazing. There is a reason people believe in these guys....
Could the arrival of Vanguard on the MMO scene one day be noted as the end of the so-called "MMORPG Dark-Age" (2nd gen. era)??
What I am sure of is there has never been a more wonderfully complex, detailed and immersive virtual world than that of Telon.
And with a mightly lightning bolt the Vanguard will appear before the faithful, casting away the shadows of the Dark Age and issue in a glorious new era of light. Amen! Thanks to the prophet Brad we shall bare witness to the Vanguard's coming. Hallelujah brother!
Guess I wasn't to far off with my "cultists" comment, some of you seem to be losing your fricking minds.
Yes im very excited about the game too but I in no way believe it will be a second coming or a wow killer. I love diplomacy and the adventuring sphere isn't half bad and yes im certainly getting vanguard and playing it for awhile. I will say though that I am more excited about warhammer now as I believe that has a better chanceof being the wow killer
why does everyone talk about WoW killer this, WoW killer that? who really cares, nothing is going to kill WoW except time at this point. i dont like the game myself, but you cant argue with its success. what you should have said is, "this might not be the best game, but i will play it for a while." "i am really looking forward to trying out Warhammer though, it looks like a better game, in my opinion" because this is just flame bait, and you should have realized that.
In all seriousness, I really hope this isn't a "WoW killer" I want the bulk of their community to STAY over there where I left them, lol.
The art is mediocre, at best. The system requirements are *insanely* high for the fair art quality present.
The world feels incomplete and unpolished. There are large areas that just feel like they haven't been filled in yet.
The GUI and control system is a poor clone of World of Warcraft. Everything looks and runs the same as WOW, but with less efficiency. Ditto for the quest system, but with poorer quality storywriting.
Character balance is very poor; the game desperately needed another month or two of testing and class balance tweaks. Prepare for the Nerf Wars - Vanguard is going to see A LOT of rebalancing over the first six months.
Basically, it plays like a bad WOW clone with bad class design, the same amount of content spread out over a much larger landmass, and worse graphics with computer specs through the roof.
Sorry Brad - requiring higher computer specs DOES NOT make it a 'next gen' game. If anything, Vanguard is the last byblow of the 1st generation games, not a new generation.
The art is mediocre, at best. The system requirements are *insanely* high for the fair art quality present.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, as is everyone... out of curiosity, what MMO do you think has better art/art direction/graphics? Or has no game yet lived up to your idyllic vision? I'm also not sure how it can "look the same as WoW" and also have "worse graphics," especially since it looks nothing like WoW.
I look at Vanguard as another evolutionary step. It does innovate in a number of ways, whether or not you like the ways it innovates. The graphics are arguably the most advanced yet in an MMO, with a solid mix of technical sophistication and art direction (beating WoW and many others on the first score, and EQ2 and some others on the second). Visually, it isn't the best at everything, and it falls short in a number of respects, but it is far more impressive than most other games of its ilk.
However, it also has a very traditional MMO structure, which feels something like a cross between EQ and WoW, and it's clear that Sigil set out to create a game that is at best a small step forward in terms of gameplay. They didn't reinvent the genre, and I think that's a valid criticism, as I too am tired of seeing the same games constantly re-released with a fresh coat of paint, whether it's the same damn FPS game, an RPG or anything else. (In fairness, however, WoW contained relatively little actual innovation either; it primarily improved upon the elements already present in the genre, and was in many ways less innovative than earlier games were in their time.) It is also still very rough from a performance standpoint, as everyone knows.
But hey, them's the brakes. If you are dead set on never playing another new MMO again until someone "gets it right" in every respect, more power to ya, but I suspect you'll be lucky to see more than one of those per decade. I would rather enjoy what there is to enjoy in the new crop of games, and then move on to something new. It's not a life-changing decision, it's just a game.
What games have looked better... Well, better is certainly a matter of opinion. For instance, when WOW and EQ2 virtually co-released, some people felt one had better graphics, and others felt the other did. So anything I say here is just my take on it, and not gospel; but I've done a fair bit of 3d modeling, so my view is based on experience in the work, at least.
The characters are too high poly. At something like four times the polycounts of most MMOs, the Vanguard characters are one of the biggest lag-causers in the game. Even at lowest quality setup, having two or three other players pop onscreen can drop framerate by 50-75%. That's a dramatic loss. The ultra high polycount was used to enable the "morphing" tech in their character creation system, I am assuming; but frankly, I don't think the function loss it causes was worth the slim increase to individuality it allows.
The world in general feels fairly bland. Walking into a building almost anywhere, and you feel like you've stepped into a cardboard cutout. The buildings all look much alike; the interiors are all the same, and almost all unfurnished. There is little to make the areas seem lived in, little to make the towns feel alive. Shadowbane got away with this "everything is the same" thing because they had destroyable buildings, and a focus on the players, instead of the environment. Vanguard is at its core a pve game, however, so an immersive environment should have been important.
At "highest performance" settings - the setting MOST users will be using MOST of the time, given that the average PC can't get higher than 10-12 fps at any setting above that - the world looks extremely bland. Badly tiling terrain textures, trees that look like something out of UO from 1999, nothing anywhere with any detail; seriously, at that setting, I have rarely seen any game look *worse*. Mind you, if you crank the graphics up to max, the game looks dramatically better. But the computer to run the game effectively at those settings is outside of the reach for most players; if you are not playing with a computer at LEAST as good as the "recommended" specs, the game appearance is terrible. At min specs, you're looking at a screen from a game out of 1998-2000.
My biggest gripe, graphically, is that there is no excuse for the performance being so bad. Their graphics are not more advanced than other some other games which run much more smoothly. It's probably a combination of bad art and bad programming, but if a game requires a 256mb card and 2gb of RAM to run it smoothly at a medium setting, then it had better look *spectacular* at that level. And...Vanguard looks decent at that level, but not spectacular.
As for "looking the same as WOW" - I was referring to the similarities in GUI and control systems. Basically, they copied the movement systems from WOW, for instance - but the VG response time is slower. They copied the basic GUI for ability purchase, for stores, for quests, and other such bits lock, stock, and barrel; except the 2d art they used for their version is bland, poorly drawn, and just generally less visually appealing (my opinion, I know).
I'm not so demanding that I want someone to "get it right" in every way. But Vanguard, as of when I logged into the beta for the last time tonight, was only marginally better than what I saw when I was running around in Mourning beta.
What games have looked better... Well, better is certainly a matter of opinion. For instance, when WOW and EQ2 virtually co-released, some people felt one had better graphics, and others felt the other did. So anything I say here is just my take on it, and not gospel; but I've done a fair bit of 3d modeling, so my view is based on experience in the work, at least.
The characters are too high poly. At something like four times the polycounts of most MMOs, the Vanguard characters are one of the biggest lag-causers in the game. Even at lowest quality setup, having two or three other players pop onscreen can drop framerate by 50-75%. That's a dramatic loss. The ultra high polycount was used to enable the "morphing" tech in their character creation system, I am assuming; but frankly, I don't think the function loss it causes was worth the slim increase to individuality it allows.
The world in general feels fairly bland. Walking into a building almost anywhere, and you feel like you've stepped into a cardboard cutout. The buildings all look much alike; the interiors are all the same, and almost all unfurnished. There is little to make the areas seem lived in, little to make the towns feel alive. Shadowbane got away with this "everything is the same" thing because they had destroyable buildings, and a focus on the players, instead of the environment. Vanguard is at its core a pve game, however, so an immersive environment should have been important.
At "highest performance" settings - the setting MOST users will be using MOST of the time, given that the average PC can't get higher than 10-12 fps at any setting above that - the world looks extremely bland. Badly tiling terrain textures, trees that look like something out of UO from 1999, nothing anywhere with any detail; seriously, at that setting, I have rarely seen any game look *worse*. Mind you, if you crank the graphics up to max, the game looks dramatically better. But the computer to run the game effectively at those settings is outside of the reach for most players; if you are not playing with a computer at LEAST as good as the "recommended" specs, the game appearance is terrible. At min specs, you're looking at a screen from a game out of 1998-2000.
My biggest gripe, graphically, is that there is no excuse for the performance being so bad. Their graphics are not more advanced than other some other games which run much more smoothly. It's probably a combination of bad art and bad programming, but if a game requires a 256mb card and 2gb of RAM to run it smoothly at a medium setting, then it had better look *spectacular* at that level. And...Vanguard looks decent at that level, but not spectacular.
As for "looking the same as WOW" - I was referring to the similarities in GUI and control systems. Basically, they copied the movement systems from WOW, for instance - but the VG response time is slower. They copied the basic GUI for ability purchase, for stores, for quests, and other such bits lock, stock, and barrel; except the 2d art they used for their version is bland, poorly drawn, and just generally less visually appealing (my opinion, I know).
I'm not so demanding that I want someone to "get it right" in every way. But Vanguard, as of when I logged into the beta for the last time tonight, was only marginally better than what I saw when I was running around in Mourning beta.
Come to think of it, Mourning ran better.
BECAUSE TEH UBAR GRAFFIX MEAN UBAR GAMEPLAY R1GHT!?1!!SHIFT+ONE!
"Fuck you Todd Howard for your new generation of retarded developers...fucking graphics whore." -Burton Finch, SpikeTV VGA 2007 Entry Lobby
What games have looked better... Well, better is certainly a matter of opinion. For instance, when WOW and EQ2 virtually co-released, some people felt one had better graphics, and others felt the other did. So anything I say here is just my take on it, and not gospel; but I've done a fair bit of 3d modeling, so my view is based on experience in the work, at least.
The characters are too high poly. At something like four times the polycounts of most MMOs, the Vanguard characters are one of the biggest lag-causers in the game. Even at lowest quality setup, having two or three other players pop onscreen can drop framerate by 50-75%. That's a dramatic loss. The ultra high polycount was used to enable the "morphing" tech in their character creation system, I am assuming; but frankly, I don't think the function loss it causes was worth the slim increase to individuality it allows.
The world in general feels fairly bland. Walking into a building almost anywhere, and you feel like you've stepped into a cardboard cutout. The buildings all look much alike; the interiors are all the same, and almost all unfurnished. There is little to make the areas seem lived in, little to make the towns feel alive. Shadowbane got away with this "everything is the same" thing because they had destroyable buildings, and a focus on the players, instead of the environment. Vanguard is at its core a pve game, however, so an immersive environment should have been important.
At "highest performance" settings - the setting MOST users will be using MOST of the time, given that the average PC can't get higher than 10-12 fps at any setting above that - the world looks extremely bland. Badly tiling terrain textures, trees that look like something out of UO from 1999, nothing anywhere with any detail; seriously, at that setting, I have rarely seen any game look *worse*. Mind you, if you crank the graphics up to max, the game looks dramatically better. But the computer to run the game effectively at those settings is outside of the reach for most players; if you are not playing with a computer at LEAST as good as the "recommended" specs, the game appearance is terrible. At min specs, you're looking at a screen from a game out of 1998-2000.
My biggest gripe, graphically, is that there is no excuse for the performance being so bad. Their graphics are not more advanced than other some other games which run much more smoothly. It's probably a combination of bad art and bad programming, but if a game requires a 256mb card and 2gb of RAM to run it smoothly at a medium setting, then it had better look *spectacular* at that level. And...Vanguard looks decent at that level, but not spectacular.
As for "looking the same as WOW" - I was referring to the similarities in GUI and control systems. Basically, they copied the movement systems from WOW, for instance - but the VG response time is slower. They copied the basic GUI for ability purchase, for stores, for quests, and other such bits lock, stock, and barrel; except the 2d art they used for their version is bland, poorly drawn, and just generally less visually appealing (my opinion, I know).
I'm not so demanding that I want someone to "get it right" in every way. But Vanguard, as of when I logged into the beta for the last time tonight, was only marginally better than what I saw when I was running around in Mourning beta.
But there ARE no 3rd gen MMORPG's even out yet Vyava .
1st Gen: UO, EverQuest, DAoC, SWG, etc.
2nd Gen: EverQuest II, WoW, DDO, etc.
3rd Gen: Warhammer, Vanguard, AoC, etc
This year marks the beginning of the 3rd generation.
Wrong.
1st gen are the TSN, AOL, Compuserve and GEnie games such as Neverwinter Nights and The Shadows of Yserbius
2nd gen are The Realm, UO and EQ, DAoC, Lineage, Meridian
some call the later half of 2nd gen a disticnt grouping or 2.5 gen; SWG, FFXI, EvE (these all represent serious technology advancements)
3rd gen are EQ2, WoW, DDO
4th gen should be WAR AoC, depending if they are actually released as advancements other wise they will be like VG and just more 3rd gen.
Just the major titles are listed, you should be able to figure out where the other titles lay.
Edit: I forgot Meridian, I can't believe I did that. Oh and before you ask, wrong Neverwinter NIghts. This one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_%28AOL_game%29 not the Bioware one. Since release it had over 1,000 people concurrent so yes it does count as a MMORPG.
Originally posted by tetsul And with a mightly lightning bolt the Vanguard will appear before the faithful, casting away the shadows of the Dark Age and issue in a glorious new era of light. Amen! Thanks to the prophet Brad we shall bare witness to the Vanguard's coming. Hallelujah brother!
/rofl
Let us pray to the Brad!
I must add to this thread that trying to compare WoW to Vanguard is like comparing a toy gun to a real one. WoW is very popular, much like pop music is popular. It has shallow lyrics and a trendy image. Most people are attracted to that. Vanguard is akin to heavy metal in that it's mass appeal may not be that of watered-down and catchy pop songs, but once you listen closer you find something immensely deep and fulfilling, something that really stimulates your mind and engages the emotions. You don't have to be a metal head to dig were I'm coming from.
I'm not bashing WoW (seriously), just stating the obvious. I also find it amusing that some of you folks act like the people in these forums could have more than a moderate effect on any given games success. SWG is no exception, it was simply the game itself that generated the reputation it has. One person stated that they worry the 'elitist' attitudes here in the Vanguard forums could end up driving away the community. That is absurd to even consider, being that the vast majority of players of all MMO's don't even know this website exists. It's the marketing millions they spend on advertising any said product. If people like it they tell their friends and so forth.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Originally posted by tetsul And with a mightly lightning bolt the Vanguard will appear before the faithful, casting away the shadows of the Dark Age and issue in a glorious new era of light. Amen! Thanks to the prophet Brad we shall bare witness to the Vanguard's coming. Hallelujah brother!
/rofl
Let us pray to the Brad!
I must add to this thread that trying to compare WoW to Vanguard is like comparing a toy gun to a real one. WoW is very popular, much like pop music is popular. It has shallow lyrics and a trendy image. Most people are attracted to that. Vanguard is akin to heavy metal in that it's mass appeal may not be that of watered-down and catchy pop songs, but once you listen closer you find something immensely deep and fulfilling, something that really stimulates your mind and engages the emotions. You don't have to be a metal head to dig were I'm coming from.
Sigil should be thankful for members like you, when i played Vanguard it was so boring i felt asleep many times testing the game, the boring combat , the dull and bland graphics...But hey thats me
Your gripes about the performance are certainly fair, and shared by pretty much everyone. I'm not convinced that most people will be using highest performance, but that could well be the case (and I don't disagree that it looks terrible in that mode). I suspect, however, that they were taking a somewhat longer view, in that they wanted to create a system that would still look good in a few years, an approach not uncommon in games in general, even if they didn't do a great job of optimizing it so far.
Again, to the extent that graphics are a big issue, I think you need to compare it to other games in its category. Compared to EQ2, for instance, Vanguard's art direction is quite sophisticated, and its world feels a lot less barren and bland, in my experience. Compared to WoW, it's just a different type of experience -- quasi-"realistic" vs. stylized. Nothing so far has compared to WoW's art direction and the sublety, wonder and sense of humor of its world, but they also made a trade-off in terms of modelling everything in a very simple, stylized way. Obviously that approach appeals to a lot of people, but not everyone, and Vanguard is about the best-looking MMO that takes the sort of effects-heavy, highly detailed approach common to most games today. Shadowbane was below average graphically even when it launched, so I'm not sure that's an apt comparison even if you're trying to make a point.
In terms of the interface, WoW's influence on Vanguard is certainly visible (in places I wish it were more visible). But again, WoW largely built upon past MMOs, and while they brought a sense of polish to the interface that was sorely needed, they didn't revolutionize anything. The interfaces for most pre-WoW MMOs had a lot in common. I actually quite like the icon art in Vanguard, though that is, as you said, an issue of taste... I love Blizzard's style, but let's be honest, half of the icons are from Warcraft III, and in many cases they don't make a lot of sense. I do hope Sigil takes another pass at the type in the game, as it's absolutely horrid. If Blizzard proved anything, it was that adding attractive anti-aliased type to your game isn't so hard, and I do hope Sigil copies that!
Part of my point about "getting it right in every way" is that you won't find enough people who all agree on what that means to get a game of backyard football going. Some people are all about graphics, others want complex and "skill"-based combat, some are obsessed with the minutiae of crafting, others (like me) are tired of the endless setting cliches and would kill for a decent MMO that's based around a novel concept. Some love PvP, some hate PvP, some will only have fun if they can ruin someone else's fun. Some people are all about the end game, others are more concerned with the journey; some won't even consider a game without robust guild tools, some want to be able to solo from start to finish; some want fabulous outfits, some care about player housing over all else, some think those things are "ghey." At this point, I don't think it's possible to get everything right for everyone, if it ever was.
You kind of have to draw a line and say, here are the principles that our game will be founded upon, take em or leave em. I don't think anyone is saying Vanguard doesn't have a laundry list of flaws; hopefully they will get fixed before they drive people away. I also believe pretty much every other MMO I've played has started out in a similar position, give or take, and you're obviously someone with enough MMO experience to know that the launch game is always going to be buggy and messy. Hopefully Sigil will take these issues seriously and fix them as quickly as possible, as I don't think they speak to inherent flaws in the game, but bumps on the road to producing the game they envisioned.
It doesn't start in the history books, but it knows the way, it just needs to walk the path (cue Neo dodging bullets).
I am getting tired of people saying its just an up to date EQ1. You know, there are people still playing that game, despite its archaic graphics, destroyed economy, dead servers and lack of modern MMO features. I can only hope that Vanguard lasts as long as EQ1.
The MMO industry has to be the only thing in existence that gets hated on for taking good features from its predacessors.
1. The huge selection of races isn't really that important since the races do not really differ all that much and its not like each continent is at war with the others. The character customization is, to me, a waste of time.
...
2. Imo they should have spent more time ramping up the first 10 levels of the game and making it crazy fun than providing all kinds of needless customization(races and faces/body types, etc).
1.
You obviously have not played the game with the factions system enabled. The last patch released today, last day of beta, has enabled what is part of the game's factions system (we have still not seen all of it ingame, more will come post launch).
Opposing cities, gards, outposts, etc... will now attack you depending on your race (i.ex If you are a dark elf the gnomes and other races will attack you). This also means that mobs now start to attack each other. The dynamics of the system make is so that your actions can change this. For example, if you begin killing people of a friendly faction everyone will start to attack you. You can also change the rules and get a much better (or worse) reputation with an opposing faction through diplomacy.
More is to come: guild/player controlled castles, cities, etc...
Racial Faction Modifiers were now applied to the following areas:
- Martok
- Tanvu
- Caial Brael
- Hathor Zhi
- Mekalia
- Qur'xa
- Khal
- Lomshir
- Bordinar's Cleft
- Rindol Field
- Leth Nurae
- Halgarad
- Tursh
- Dahknarg
2.
From your post it looks like you prefer games like WOW that give you some instant gratification, but get boring fast. I prefer something that builds on top of a solid base and gets better the more I play. I agree with you that the first levels could have been made a little more attractive; but then, the first levels fly past so fast.. its not really an issue for me.
The topic is a bit ambiguous, can mean either positive or negative place (hehe).
I will definitely give it a try (always a good thing to have some first hand personal experience), but only when people start reporting that I'm about to play a finished game and not a paying beta.
In my many long years of playing MMORPG's I have never seen a development team more dedicated, more honest & upfront and more sincerely passionate about their creation as Vanguards producers. All can say is amazing. There is a reason people believe in these guys....
Could the arrival of Vanguard on the MMO scene one day be noted as the end of the so-called "MMORPG Dark-Age" (2nd gen. era)??
What I am sure of is there has never been a more wonderfully complex, detailed and immersive virtual world than that of Telon.
The Force is strong with this one.
Didn't you get enough humiliation for marketing this game at Star Wars refugees forum? once or twice its ok but now its like you are being paid for promoting this over hyped and unfinished MMO. Seriously, quit it.
Originally posted by tetsul And with a mightly lightning bolt the Vanguard will appear before the faithful, casting away the shadows of the Dark Age and issue in a glorious new era of light. Amen! Thanks to the prophet Brad we shall bare witness to the Vanguard's coming. Hallelujah brother!
/rofl
Let us pray to the Brad!
I must add to this thread that trying to compare WoW to Vanguard is like comparing a toy gun to a real one. WoW is very popular, much like pop music is popular. It has shallow lyrics and a trendy image. Most people are attracted to that. Vanguard is akin to heavy metal in that it's mass appeal may not be that of watered-down and catchy pop songs, but once you listen closer you find something immensely deep and fulfilling, something that really stimulates your mind and engages the emotions. You don't have to be a metal head to dig were I'm coming from.
I'm not bashing WoW (seriously), just stating the obvious. I also find it amusing that some of you folks act like the people in these forums could have more than a moderate effect on any given games success. SWG is no exception, it was simply the game itself that generated the reputation it has. One person stated that they worry the 'elitist' attitudes here in the Vanguard forums could end up driving away the community. That is absurd to even consider, being that the vast majority of players of all MMO's don't even know this website exists. It's the marketing millions they spend on advertising any said product. If people like it they tell their friends and so forth.
Agreed, it's an idiotic comparison to be sure. Vanguard is going to do very well as far as I can see. Yes, it's still not perfect but it is getting better all the time in terms of bug fixes etc. The open beta was so packed towards the end, you couldn't see for other players, most of whom seemed to be enjoying themselves. It's a shame people can't enjoy their games as much as I'm enjoying Vanguard.
Wrong. 1st gen are the TSN, AOL, Compuserve and GEnie games such as Neverwinter Nights and The Shadows of Yserbius 2nd gen are The Realm, UO and EQ, DAoC, Lineage, Meridian some call the later half of 2nd gen a disticnt grouping or 2.5 gen; SWG, FFXI, EvE (these all represent serious technology advancements) 3rd gen are EQ2, WoW, DDO 4th gen should be WAR AoC, depending if they are actually released as advancements other wise they will be like VG and just more 3rd gen.
Just the major titles are listed, you should be able to figure out where the other titles lay.
Edit: I forgot Meridian, I can't believe I did that. Oh and before you ask, wrong Neverwinter NIghts. This one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_%28AOL_game%29 not the Bioware one. Since release it had over 1,000 people concurrent so yes it does count as a MMORPG.
I saw this coming. I had a feeling you were going to rattle off a bunch of games. My list is subjective (and very concise), but that is the simplified gist of it in my mind(and many agree).Now, all I can say is we don't agree on some key points, and thats perfectly fine. I can respect your views if you can tolerate mine. Works both ways.
EDIT: It's well known that EQ is not the first "MMO" (not even close) but it's the first to set up everything to follow (it self founded on the concepts of stuff like UO). In as far as talking about electronic RPG's, how far back you want to go? The 70's/80's era games? MUD's/text adventures? And they are all based on PnP.
/peace
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Comments
Any way just to add in there, i am completely surprised about this game. I never even knew what Vandguard was at first, i heard few things but i just thought it would crash and burn. Although hearing from other people it seems that Vanguard will overthrow all lol. Best graphics most diverse(class n races) and all the quests and even mounts added? Plus no zoning and no instances, no more loading times, or anything. I thnk that this game is going to be awsome. The only drawback that i could think of is, the power required to harness this game for us less fortunate players who dont have 4g's to drop on a new computer.f
And I just wasn't feeling a huge fun factor. I wanted to like it, I tried to like it, but I just didn't.... I even tried out several different characters but just wasn't feeling it. Imo they should have spent more time ramping up the first 10 levels of the game and making it crazy fun than providing all kinds of needless customization(races and faces/body types, etc).
that was my impression when I tried EQ2 and WoW both this past week. They're both basically EQ1 with a fancier more cumbersone interface and the VERY same combat model. I consider those 3 to be the 1st generation games because the combat model is primarily the old unix/mud type of dice rolls with graphics added to it as an afterthought.
CoH is awesome with how they married the graphics and combat into a perfect machine, not to mention the fantastic AI and enemy pathing.
I put SWG into the second generation because of the original combat model they used when the game was released. Also the crafting system and all the professions were absolutely unique and compelling... but it died a grisly death at the hands of SOE as they morphed it into a first person shooter.
Now I've read lots of posts that say Vanguard is the same ole unix/mud type of combat system as EQ and wow have... I sincerely hope not. we should be going forward on games and not backward and borrowing from the old games, even if they were successful.
Businessmen will say to re-use what worked and offer it in more colors, but as consumers that only makes for good competition. But to blow the world out of the water takes unique genius. Star Trek Online looks like the next one to look forward to.
You have literally no clue what you are talking about. Do some reading, I don't have time to tell you all that's different than EQ. But one is boats that you can craft and pilot yourself. EQ didn't have that, nor does any other MMO besides UO and you couldn't craft them.
Cheers.
SWG you could craft all that same with eve. huge seemless world well been done. class system really hasnt been a good one round since Pre-CU swg and i don't think vanguard is using that. flyling mounts been done. everything you listed earlier has been done. maybe it does turn out to be a good game maybe bad either way to me it doesnt matter my troll killing days are over, but to make it out as the second coming... well maybe the second coming of eq with non instanced housing and up to date graphics but nothing that steps outside the box . maybe AOC will do that with the combat system they r using.. who knows.why does everyone talk about WoW killer this, WoW killer that? who really cares, nothing is going to kill WoW except time at this point. i dont like the game myself, but you cant argue with its success. what you should have said is, "this might not be the best game, but i will play it for a while." "i am really looking forward to trying out Warhammer though, it looks like a better game, in my opinion" because this is just flame bait, and you should have realized that.
In all seriousness, I really hope this isn't a "WoW killer" I want the bulk of their community to STAY over there where I left them, lol.
I love when people think their opinion is the only right one. The term "good" is wholly subjective. Just because you have been staring at a hole in the ground for five months doesn't mean you know the difference between it and your ass.
I also think Vanguard will earn it's place in MMO history. It has a HUGE seamless world without a single instance, largest race and class selection ever, plethora quests ranging from the easy to hair-pullingly hard, an insane view distance and THE best graphics in any MMO in current release. Add to that player craftable (and pilotable) ships, non-instanced housing and enough different mounts, ground based and flying, to choke a hydra, Vanguard has it ALL.
I don't think that my opinion is the only right one, just MY opinion. You seem to skip right past the intellectual part of the debate and head straight for personal attacks. This is a sign that you probably have much more of a comfort level talking with your fingers and a keyboard than having to actually deal with people. You have your opinion and I have mine, the difference seems to be that I respect that everyone has their own.
While the above statement is not mentally stimulating, I do believe it is metaphorically correct.
This is only my opinion and I wish those that enjoy the game the best of luck.
They should change the title to Dark and Light 2,lol
And with a mightly lightning bolt the Vanguard will appear before the faithful, casting away the shadows of the Dark Age and issue in a glorious new era of light. Amen! Thanks to the prophet Brad we shall bare witness to the Vanguard's coming. Hallelujah brother!
Guess I wasn't to far off with my "cultists" comment, some of you seem to be losing your fricking minds.
why does everyone talk about WoW killer this, WoW killer that? who really cares, nothing is going to kill WoW except time at this point. i dont like the game myself, but you cant argue with its success. what you should have said is, "this might not be the best game, but i will play it for a while." "i am really looking forward to trying out Warhammer though, it looks like a better game, in my opinion" because this is just flame bait, and you should have realized that.
In all seriousness, I really hope this isn't a "WoW killer" I want the bulk of their community to STAY over there where I left them, lol.
QFT
The art is mediocre, at best. The system requirements are *insanely* high for the fair art quality present.
The world feels incomplete and unpolished. There are large areas that just feel like they haven't been filled in yet.
The GUI and control system is a poor clone of World of Warcraft. Everything looks and runs the same as WOW, but with less efficiency. Ditto for the quest system, but with poorer quality storywriting.
Character balance is very poor; the game desperately needed another month or two of testing and class balance tweaks. Prepare for the Nerf Wars - Vanguard is going to see A LOT of rebalancing over the first six months.
Basically, it plays like a bad WOW clone with bad class design, the same amount of content spread out over a much larger landmass, and worse graphics with computer specs through the roof.
Sorry Brad - requiring higher computer specs DOES NOT make it a 'next gen' game. If anything, Vanguard is the last byblow of the 1st generation games, not a new generation.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
I look at Vanguard as another evolutionary step. It does innovate in a number of ways, whether or not you like the ways it innovates. The graphics are arguably the most advanced yet in an MMO, with a solid mix of technical sophistication and art direction (beating WoW and many others on the first score, and EQ2 and some others on the second). Visually, it isn't the best at everything, and it falls short in a number of respects, but it is far more impressive than most other games of its ilk.
However, it also has a very traditional MMO structure, which feels something like a cross between EQ and WoW, and it's clear that Sigil set out to create a game that is at best a small step forward in terms of gameplay. They didn't reinvent the genre, and I think that's a valid criticism, as I too am tired of seeing the same games constantly re-released with a fresh coat of paint, whether it's the same damn FPS game, an RPG or anything else. (In fairness, however, WoW contained relatively little actual innovation either; it primarily improved upon the elements already present in the genre, and was in many ways less innovative than earlier games were in their time.) It is also still very rough from a performance standpoint, as everyone knows.
But hey, them's the brakes. If you are dead set on never playing another new MMO again until someone "gets it right" in every respect, more power to ya, but I suspect you'll be lucky to see more than one of those per decade. I would rather enjoy what there is to enjoy in the new crop of games, and then move on to something new. It's not a life-changing decision, it's just a game.
The characters are too high poly. At something like four times the polycounts of most MMOs, the Vanguard characters are one of the biggest lag-causers in the game. Even at lowest quality setup, having two or three other players pop onscreen can drop framerate by 50-75%. That's a dramatic loss. The ultra high polycount was used to enable the "morphing" tech in their character creation system, I am assuming; but frankly, I don't think the function loss it causes was worth the slim increase to individuality it allows.
The world in general feels fairly bland. Walking into a building almost anywhere, and you feel like you've stepped into a cardboard cutout. The buildings all look much alike; the interiors are all the same, and almost all unfurnished. There is little to make the areas seem lived in, little to make the towns feel alive. Shadowbane got away with this "everything is the same" thing because they had destroyable buildings, and a focus on the players, instead of the environment. Vanguard is at its core a pve game, however, so an immersive environment should have been important.
At "highest performance" settings - the setting MOST users will be using MOST of the time, given that the average PC can't get higher than 10-12 fps at any setting above that - the world looks extremely bland. Badly tiling terrain textures, trees that look like something out of UO from 1999, nothing anywhere with any detail; seriously, at that setting, I have rarely seen any game look *worse*. Mind you, if you crank the graphics up to max, the game looks dramatically better. But the computer to run the game effectively at those settings is outside of the reach for most players; if you are not playing with a computer at LEAST as good as the "recommended" specs, the game appearance is terrible. At min specs, you're looking at a screen from a game out of 1998-2000.
My biggest gripe, graphically, is that there is no excuse for the performance being so bad.
As for "looking the same as WOW" - I was referring to the similarities in GUI and control systems. Basically, they copied the movement systems from WOW, for instance - but the VG response time is slower. They copied the basic GUI for ability purchase, for stores, for quests, and other such bits lock, stock, and barrel; except the 2d art they used for their version is bland, poorly drawn, and just generally less visually appealing (my opinion, I know).
I'm not so demanding that I want someone to "get it right" in every way.
Come to think of it, Mourning ran better.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
BECAUSE TEH UBAR GRAFFIX MEAN UBAR GAMEPLAY R1GHT!?1!!SHIFT+ONE!
"Fuck you Todd Howard for your new generation of retarded developers...fucking graphics whore." -Burton Finch, SpikeTV VGA 2007 Entry Lobby
Wrong.
1st gen are the TSN, AOL, Compuserve and GEnie games such as Neverwinter Nights and The Shadows of Yserbius
2nd gen are The Realm, UO and EQ, DAoC, Lineage, Meridian
some call the later half of 2nd gen a disticnt grouping or 2.5 gen; SWG, FFXI, EvE (these all represent serious technology advancements)
3rd gen are EQ2, WoW, DDO
4th gen should be WAR AoC, depending if they are actually released as advancements other wise they will be like VG and just more 3rd gen.
Just the major titles are listed, you should be able to figure out where the other titles lay.
Edit: I forgot Meridian, I can't believe I did that. Oh and before you ask, wrong Neverwinter NIghts. This one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_%28AOL_game%29 not the Bioware one. Since release it had over 1,000 people concurrent so yes it does count as a MMORPG.
Let us pray to the Brad!
I must add to this thread that trying to compare WoW to Vanguard is like comparing a toy gun to a real one. WoW is very popular, much like pop music is popular. It has shallow lyrics and a trendy image. Most people are attracted to that. Vanguard is akin to heavy metal in that it's mass appeal may not be that of watered-down and catchy pop songs, but once you listen closer you find something immensely deep and fulfilling, something that really stimulates your mind and engages the emotions. You don't have to be a metal head to dig were I'm coming from.
I'm not bashing WoW (seriously), just stating the obvious. I also find it amusing that some of you folks act like the people in these forums could have more than a moderate effect on any given games success. SWG is no exception, it was simply the game itself that generated the reputation it has. One person stated that they worry the 'elitist' attitudes here in the Vanguard forums could end up driving away the community. That is absurd to even consider, being that the vast majority of players of all MMO's don't even know this website exists. It's the marketing millions they spend on advertising any said product. If people like it they tell their friends and so forth.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Let us pray to the Brad!
I must add to this thread that trying to compare WoW to Vanguard is like comparing a toy gun to a real one. WoW is very popular, much like pop music is popular. It has shallow lyrics and a trendy image. Most people are attracted to that. Vanguard is akin to heavy metal in that it's mass appeal may not be that of watered-down and catchy pop songs, but once you listen closer you find something immensely deep and fulfilling, something that really stimulates your mind and engages the emotions. You don't have to be a metal head to dig were I'm coming from.
Sigil should be thankful for members like you, when i played Vanguard it was so boring i felt asleep many times testing the game, the boring combat , the dull and bland graphics...But hey thats me
/Thark
Again, to the extent that graphics are a big issue, I think you need to compare it to other games in its category. Compared to EQ2, for instance, Vanguard's art direction is quite sophisticated, and its world feels a lot less barren and bland, in my experience. Compared to WoW, it's just a different type of experience -- quasi-"realistic" vs. stylized. Nothing so far has compared to WoW's art direction and the sublety, wonder and sense of humor of its world, but they also made a trade-off in terms of modelling everything in a very simple, stylized way. Obviously that approach appeals to a lot of people, but not everyone, and Vanguard is about the best-looking MMO that takes the sort of effects-heavy, highly detailed approach common to most games today. Shadowbane was below average graphically even when it launched, so I'm not sure that's an apt comparison even if you're trying to make a point.
In terms of the interface, WoW's influence on Vanguard is certainly visible (in places I wish it were more visible). But again, WoW largely built upon past MMOs, and while they brought a sense of polish to the interface that was sorely needed, they didn't revolutionize anything. The interfaces for most pre-WoW MMOs had a lot in common. I actually quite like the icon art in Vanguard, though that is, as you said, an issue of taste... I love Blizzard's style, but let's be honest, half of the icons are from Warcraft III, and in many cases they don't make a lot of sense. I do hope Sigil takes another pass at the type in the game, as it's absolutely horrid. If Blizzard proved anything, it was that adding attractive anti-aliased type to your game isn't so hard, and I do hope Sigil copies that!
Part of my point about "getting it right in every way" is that you won't find enough people who all agree on what that means to get a game of backyard football going. Some people are all about graphics, others want complex and "skill"-based combat, some are obsessed with the minutiae of crafting, others (like me) are tired of the endless setting cliches and would kill for a decent MMO that's based around a novel concept. Some love PvP, some hate PvP, some will only have fun if they can ruin someone else's fun. Some people are all about the end game, others are more concerned with the journey; some won't even consider a game without robust guild tools, some want to be able to solo from start to finish; some want fabulous outfits, some care about player housing over all else, some think those things are "ghey." At this point, I don't think it's possible to get everything right for everyone, if it ever was.
You kind of have to draw a line and say, here are the principles that our game will be founded upon, take em or leave em. I don't think anyone is saying Vanguard doesn't have a laundry list of flaws; hopefully they will get fixed before they drive people away. I also believe pretty much every other MMO I've played has started out in a similar position, give or take, and you're obviously someone with enough MMO experience to know that the launch game is always going to be buggy and messy. Hopefully Sigil will take these issues seriously and fix them as quickly as possible, as I don't think they speak to inherent flaws in the game, but bumps on the road to producing the game they envisioned.
I am getting tired of people saying its just an up to date EQ1. You know, there are people still playing that game, despite its archaic graphics, destroyed economy, dead servers and lack of modern MMO features. I can only hope that Vanguard lasts as long as EQ1.
The MMO industry has to be the only thing in existence that gets hated on for taking good features from its predacessors.
1.
You obviously have not played the game with the factions system enabled. The last patch released today, last day of beta, has enabled what is part of the game's factions system (we have still not seen all of it ingame, more will come post launch).
Opposing cities, gards, outposts, etc... will now attack you depending on your race (i.ex If you are a dark elf the gnomes and other races will attack you). This also means that mobs now start to attack each other. The dynamics of the system make is so that your actions can change this. For example, if you begin killing people of a friendly faction everyone will start to attack you. You can also change the rules and get a much better (or worse) reputation with an opposing faction through diplomacy.
More is to come: guild/player controlled castles, cities, etc...
Racial Faction Modifiers were now applied to the following areas:
- Martok
- Tanvu
- Caial Brael
- Hathor Zhi
- Mekalia
- Qur'xa
- Khal
- Lomshir
- Bordinar's Cleft
- Rindol Field
- Leth Nurae
- Halgarad
- Tursh
- Dahknarg
2.
From your post it looks like you prefer games like WOW that give you some instant gratification, but get boring fast. I prefer something that builds on top of a solid base and gets better the more I play. I agree with you that the first levels could have been made a little more attractive; but then, the first levels fly past so fast.. its not really an issue for me.
I will definitely give it a try (always a good thing to have some first hand personal experience), but only when people start reporting that I'm about to play a finished game and not a paying beta.
Servers in Europe would be nice as well.
Let us pray to the Brad!
I must add to this thread that trying to compare WoW to Vanguard is like comparing a toy gun to a real one. WoW is very popular, much like pop music is popular. It has shallow lyrics and a trendy image. Most people are attracted to that. Vanguard is akin to heavy metal in that it's mass appeal may not be that of watered-down and catchy pop songs, but once you listen closer you find something immensely deep and fulfilling, something that really stimulates your mind and engages the emotions. You don't have to be a metal head to dig were I'm coming from.
I'm not bashing WoW (seriously), just stating the obvious. I also find it amusing that some of you folks act like the people in these forums could have more than a moderate effect on any given games success. SWG is no exception, it was simply the game itself that generated the reputation it has. One person stated that they worry the 'elitist' attitudes here in the Vanguard forums could end up driving away the community. That is absurd to even consider, being that the vast majority of players of all MMO's don't even know this website exists. It's the marketing millions they spend on advertising any said product. If people like it they tell their friends and so forth.
Agreed, it's an idiotic comparison to be sure. Vanguard is going to do very well as far as I can see. Yes, it's still not perfect but it is getting better all the time in terms of bug fixes etc. The open beta was so packed towards the end, you couldn't see for other players, most of whom seemed to be enjoying themselves. It's a shame people can't enjoy their games as much as I'm enjoying Vanguard.
EDIT: It's well known that EQ is not the first "MMO" (not even close) but it's the first to set up everything to follow (it self founded on the concepts of stuff like UO). In as far as talking about electronic RPG's, how far back you want to go? The 70's/80's era games? MUD's/text adventures? And they are all based on PnP.
/peace
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.