What? PvE is PvE...how many variations can there be? RP server is an RP server... It has two different types of PvP rule sets..team and ffa..... /shakes head
You are telling me, that with 5 gameplays (solo, grouping, raiding, Tradeskills and diplomacy) you can't think of any fine tuning? "Ironman" would be a possible PvE venture, but it doesn't have to be that. It could be a tradeskill venture, every item done in tradeskills has X10 to every stats, that would be an interesting variation to some players. It could be an "easy server" where the XP is a LOT easier to gain but that you can't play a character for more than 1 hour per day or whatever. And I am merely starting.
PvE has a LOT more possibilities of fine tuning than PvP...just thinking about it is mind blowing!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
20% of ALL the best gear is raid...so...what your saying is you don't HAVE to raid to get good gear?!?!?! Since only 20% of the gear is gotten from raids that means that there is still 80% of it out there that isn't raid...Personally I like that. I mean at least I am not forced to raid to get good gear I can get it other ways...
I would also like to say that the Journey is half the fun. With only 20% of the game being raids..that leaves me a 80% end game that isn't raiding.
No; you don't understand how endgame works.
With that 20% missing, I would be incredibly weak and unappealing for groups as time advance, the further the line you go, the more I will be backward and unable to get a group to face the outmost challenges. (Even FoH and LoS would agree here, if you get them to talk honestly; which I am not sure anyone at Sigil can...or they endorse it)
If you cut my feets, I still have 95% of my body, I can't run however, nor jump, maybe walk short distance. That 20% is not removable from grouping. I need it, just as I need my feets.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I noticed you still havent given me an awnser to my question... Do you play Vanguard?
I beta it.
I would love the leveling to 50, I would love the first part of endgame...however...the ending...it would be terrible...and ruining everything. Which then affect me while I even am a lowly level 5, I already think that I will be backward and unable to complete the uber group zones, because I lack raid-gear, which in turn make me furious; rightfully might I add.
Asking me to play Vanguard would be like asking me to drop off a plane without a parachute, yes the fall would most certainly be awesome and cool, but knowing that you will splat on the ground, I would cry all the way. I need my parachute to jump of a plane and enjoy it. I need to know that the best groupers, they are groupers! Simple, really! And...this is not negociable...and a legitimate request.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
So, how do you know what end game in vanguard will be like since no one has seen it?
Is there some Dev forum post or something that I missed?
Cause from my understanding of what they have said about raiding is as follows.
Raids will not be a mandatory thing. The best gear will come from all aspects of the game not just raid.
But, really in the end what matter is having fun and right now I am having alot of fun in Vanguard.
Do I enjoy raiding? Not really. Sometimes I'll do it but usually no I don't raid.
I played WoW and I had fun. Did I raid? Nope not really. At 60 I was into PVP I made rank 12 before i stopped playing cause I became bored with the game.
WIll I raid in Vanguard? Maybe, maybe not.
Does the prospect of raiding make me wanna stop playing? Nope, not at all. I am glad they have raiding in the game. To me it is just another aspect of the game that I can, if I want, experiance and have an adventure with. The more content the better no matter if it's raiding, solo, or group.
I wasn't able to have fun in WoW either. I gave my account to a friend after playing the game less than 24 hours, I was raging. I won't buy any game that enforce raiding ever again, and I intend to help peoples understand that they don't have to cope with that at all in a HOBBY!
Peoples where telling me I didn't know squat about endgame in WoW by then...but I turn to be right, and everyone telling me to try it anyway, they where wrong and they agree with me now, once you hit level 60 it is horrible and you have to stop or raid (70 now with BC).
Raiding is mandatory if you plan on excelling in grouping...and I can't discard that in ANY game I play. I have to TRY to be the best grouper, thereby I will have to raid...or be a second class grouper. Both aren't acceptable options. So I won't buy the game until they fix that. Raiding can't be enforced on any grouper at any point, period. If something give 1 extra hps in group, then it is enforced.
I dunno why you make me derail another thread, I was on topic and on a side derail before you get me started about raiding, I think it is quite clear that they don't intend on fixing that, and that I won't change. But...sure, I always enjoy explaining it; again.
I am an evil power gamer, a hardcore player. However, I only accept to play a gameplay I want to master and/or a gameplay I find acceptable. I don't want to master raiding and I don't find it acceptable, yet, I want to master grouping and I have to try to master it, or just not play the whole game. There is no possible compromise there. I have to TRY, to DREAM, to advance in what I am doing and hope to get all the way up, or there are no point.
Remember, we are in a hobby here, not in RL...it is 100% logical that in a hobby, only a gameplay grant total mastery of itself, regardless of your opinion on how RL works or not.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I wasn't able to have fun in WoW either. I gave my account to a friend after playing the game less than 24 hours, I was raging. I won't buy any game that enforce raiding ever again, and I intend to help peoples understand that they don't have to cope with that at all in a HOBBY!
Peoples where telling me I didn't know squat about endgame in WoW by then...but I turn to be right, and everyone telling me to try it anyway, they where wrong and they agree with me now, once you hit level 60 it is horrible and you have to stop or raid (70 now with BC).
Raiding is mandatory if you plan on excelling in grouping...and I can't discard that in ANY game I play. I have to TRY to be the best grouper, thereby I will have to raid...or be a second class grouper. Both aren't acceptable options. So I won't buy the game until they fix that. Raiding can't be enforced on any grouper at any point, period. If something give 1 extra hps in group, then it is enforced.
I dunno why you make me derail another thread, I was on topic and on a side derail before you get me started about raiding, I think it is quite clear that they don't intend on fixing that, and that I won't change. But...sure, I always enjoy explaining it; again.
I am an evil power gamer, a hardcore player. However, I only accept to play a gameplay I want to master and/or a gameplay I find acceptable. I don't want to master raiding and I don't find it acceptable, yet, I want to master grouping and I have to try to master it, or just not play the whole game. There is no possible compromise there. I have to TRY, to DREAM, to advance in what I am doing and hope to get all the way up, or there are no point.
Remember, we are in a hobby here, not in RL...it is 100% logical that in a hobby, only a gameplay grant total mastery of itself, regardless of your opinion on how RL works or not.
Hmm are you even reading what I am saying?
I had fun in WoW. played it for 7 months. I never felt "forced" to raid. I PvPed when I hit 60 and had a blast doing it. I just got bored with the game itself had nothing to do with raiding. The few raids I went on I also had fun.
Sigil has said on several occations that raiding IS NOT ENFORCED. The best gear will be obtained from all spheres of the game..
I think your also missing the point that some people acctually do enjoy raiding. The guild I was in in Eq and WoW where big time raiding guilds and I have several RL friends who love raiding. They love the feeling they get with 40 or more people working together to accomplish a goal.
In EQ and WoW both I raided very little and yet because I knew my toon and understood my role in the group I was a very solid member of the groups. Everytime I logged on I recieved tells from people wanting me to go on a dungeon run with them. I didnt have one single piece of raid gear. So, to me gear isn't as important as knowing your toon and knowing your role and understanding how all the other classes in any game work so you understand their strengths and weaknesses so you can better compliment them in a group setting.
I have also group with people decked out in tier 2 and 3 raid gear and they were as worthless in a group as a gnat. why? Cause they had no idea what they were doing. They didn't fully understand their toon and made some really stupid choices.
If you feel that you have to raid to be a good memeber of a group in any game. I feel bad for you. It isnt what you are wearing that makes a toon a good grouper it's how you play that toon that makes you a good grouper and your knowledge of the game itself.
Yes a new one has been added, Aldric, that atm moment is locked. There are now 14 total: 2 EU 1 Listed as RP 3 PVP (EU PVP, Team PVP and normal PVP) 8 Normal
What part of Locked equals released? See they added 1 new European server but they didn't start out with many there anyway.
Splitting hairs don't you think? What's the real difference between it being created and released other than time to bring it online? It could be up now for all I know. Obviously they felt the need to add another one because of the population numbers none of us know.
Um yall got it little wrong they already got the station acess subs .Soon as it went live it had all those even if it didnt sale one download or retail box they can claim those 200k + numbers.
Station access has 200k people? Hard to beleive. I would think around 55-60k at the very most.
About a year ago a SOE Dev slipped up in a interview and said that Station Access had about 50k subs. It probably went up a bit due to Vanguard but probably is still in the 50-60k range.
Hey Stoneysilenc um ya rember the game the dev was from?or where the interview was.i aint doubting what your saying one bit.but um some devs we seen over the years in eq well didnt know their but from a hole in the ground.SoE has a track record of devs that like to leave content unfinished .Put up artifical road blocks to slow players down while they fixed what has becomes paid beta for expansions an such.
That 50k number is intresting because we keept hearing it about eq .Not ever one bought their last expansion The Serpents Spine but they can by eq players prove theirs around 57k ish 71-75 level toons (have to own tss to be 71 an up).Now not ever player in eq has a 70ish toon,an few i know have station pass.were figureing around 70k active players atm in eq.
Still lets say station subs are at 50k x i think 25 a month .an can suport all those games an bandwith an servers..id think the profit margin is much more than most us players have been lead to think then.even at 50k thats 50k they can claim even if none of the station pass sub ever loged in to vanguard.
Basicaly vanguard players shouldn't worry about if they will make 250k subs so Brad can claim the game profitable.50k ish subs is enuff for it to live its potential 7 year or more life span i get that life span from this actualy..
" This is true. Being ahead of the pack *is* going to hurt us short term but long term it also gives us an engine that will continue to look good for years to come and one that is architected to take advantage of new technology on the horizon (dx 10, physics cards, 64bit clients, taking advantage of multi-core cpus, etc.). Vanguard is an MMOG focused heavily on longevity. EQ, the game we worked on first, was not designed technologically nor from a game mechanics perspective to last a long time -- we were just blown away by how successful it was.
But the result turned out that we released expansions that obsoleted the old world, needlessly increased the rate of MUDflation signficantly, ran into some major issues upgrading the engine for Luclin to keep it looking current, etc. Now I have to say, huge hats off to the EQ teams that came after me -- they've kept the game going for 7 years now. That said, Vanguard is designed in all ways to last just as long, and likely much longer. And that includes the way we architected the graphics engine. We have detailed documents describing the rest of the world, where we want to go with expansions, what features we want to add, etc. And many of the features in the game are designed to be iteraively evolved into these more advanced systems -- for example, the housing system we are launching with has all of the features of SW:G and more, but is also designed and coded such that further evolving it into a player city system with RTS elements, etc. is not going to be a huge task."
Oh yeah any one got a link to these detailed documents descrbing the rest of the world?
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard, The Tower of the Elephant (1933)
Hmm are you even reading what I am saying? I had fun in WoW. played it for 7 months. I never felt "forced" to raid. I PvPed when I hit 60 and had a blast doing it. I just got bored with the game itself had nothing to do with raiding. The few raids I went on I also had fun. Sigil has said on several occations that raiding IS NOT ENFORCED. The best gear will be obtained from all spheres of the game.. If you feel that you have to raid to be a good memeber of a group in any game. I feel bad for you. It isnt what you are wearing that makes a toon a good grouper it's how you play that toon that makes you a good grouper and your knowledge of the game itself.
I think it is you that don't read. Oh come on about that: Gear don't matter, skill does. I solo mobs in EQ that can kill me in 1 tick, summon and I am telling you that I NEED that extra gear. Skills matter only if you have the necessary tools to back it up. Saying otherwise is BS.
Brad also said that raiding wasn't enforced in EQ until recently, he also said that monks wouldn't be the pullers, that quad kiting wouldn't be possible and so on.
Sigil mades the conscious choice to please to a TINY minority that request raiding enforcement, I never said that raiding must be removed from every server, or that it even have to be removed, as long as raiding grants NO EXCLUSIVE GROUPING rewards, I don't care about it. As long as raiding grants 1 extra hp in groups, RAIDING IS ENFORCED. This is the basic of the endgame dynamic. Making personnal attacks only prove my points.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If you don't like raiding, you probably shouldn't play MMOs, since that is a major component of them. The first M stands for massive, BTW.
They should focus on advertising about raiding then, if they are so sure of it. I see them advertised about grouping and freedom however. Grouping is massive. Especially if you do PUGs all the time.
If a minority requires raid-enforcement, it is illogical to grant them that request.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Sigil will try to cater to as many people in as many ways as possible. Bottom line. I understand some people like PVP, some people like raiding, some like crafting, etc. Taking raiding out of a game like Vanguard would be a deal breaker for many, many people. Vanguard has been touted as a grouping game. If this is the case you should be fine in the gear Grouping, Crafting and Diplomacy gets you.
As Play.com are selling Vanguard for £18 ($38) I thought I'd give it a try. What the hell.
Now as a lot of people well saying this was EQ2.5 I was expecting something along the lines of the EQ Fae expansion content. Well there certainly is a lot of similarities in Vanguard, right down to my favourite turn-off in EQ.......Ranged attacks.
Can someone please tell me how this works.
1. Target a mob at a distance.
2. Select your bow attack. Bow animation begins.
3. Before your avatatr has even raised his bow to full height the MOB's damage appears above his sorry head. ????
4. MOB, now enraged starts legging it towards you. Bow animation still in progress the arrow is now loosed and 'hits' the MOB as it's running towards you. ????
5. MOB has now made up the distance to you and starts hitting you. Bow animation still not complete. ????
6. Take a couple of hits from the MOB whilst you wait for your bow animation to complete so you can draw your melee weapon. ????
Curiously EQII and the Fae both have this immersion-sapping 'trait' which leads me to conclude Vanguard is using EQII's game engine*, which in turn makes Vanguard not EQ2.5 but 1.5 in my opinion due to fact it's rubbish given the development time and 'expertise' put into it.
Gameplay is curiously rubbish when, by rights, it shouldn't be. Perhaps it's the odd stunted animations of my character or the fact he's floating above the ground which is putting me off. Perhaps it's the ever-so rubbish combat. Perhaps it's the bland environments. Perhaps it's the bugs (tried diplomacy and was told to drag cards onto a board, but they just WOULD NOT drag). Perhaps it's the (no offense) too-cheery college boy US accents of the NPC's and thier limited responses. Perhaps it's the feeling of 'Oh no not again' you get when you see a promising MMO turns out out to be an undeveloped, under designed pile of poop.
So my 30 day sub has started but I must be honest and say "Oi Vanguard....Im not going to be one of those 100K users unless you sort out the basics and jolly fast too....particulary the ranged attack timings :P".
* Sorry if this is common knowledge. I haven't read it anywhere.
Because without 200-250k there will be no profit which means no game. You gotta have a decent sub base. They could always sell it to SOE altogether but thats another story. but one which is possible and could happen.
Any company can be brought by any company but is it going to happen, will Brad sell up his lifes work? And what will he have afterwards?
Its like saying Turbine could be brought by SOE... It COULD happen.
well he sold EQ to SoE, im sure when he thinks up a new game and story etc he'll definitely sell out vanguard to SoE when the time comes...
Because without 200-250k there will be no profit which means no game. You gotta have a decent sub base. They could always sell it to SOE altogether but thats another story. but one which is possible and could happen.
Any company can be brought by any company but is it going to happen, will Brad sell up his lifes work? And what will he have afterwards?
Its like saying Turbine could be brought by SOE... It COULD happen.
well he sold EQ to SoE, im sure when he thinks up a new game and story etc he'll definitely sell out vanguard to SoE when the time comes...
i hear he was a part of soe, and did not like what soe did to the game, and left soe.....
I personally love raiding and believe the very best gear should come from it. I think there is something special about having a big group of people working together to achieve something. I wouldn't touch any MMO that does not have raiding in it. Then again this is a personal opinion and understand why some people wouldn't enjoy it.It takes a lot of patient and time, and if your like myself those 2 factors are diminishing as I get older But I still love the feeling of working together with my friends to kill the next big boss.
Without massive changes to the fit and finish, production quality and overall quality to this game, IMO there is no bleeding chance in bloody hell that it could maintain any substantive numbers. Personally I think as it stands, 100k is extremely optimistic.
Given of course that's it's still only a few days after launch, lots of positive changes could still happen but when you look at the core, fundemental mistakes in the game that are just so completely intergrated, you have to at least wonder about it's future. Beyond that the community only add's to the poor atmostphere in game.
Never in my days of playing MMO's, and yes this includes WoW, have I seen such a horrid collection of people that have absolutely no patience for newcommers, have ZERO respect for their fellow gamers and have kill on sight order for anyone who even asks a few questions or heaven forbid critisizes some aspect of the game. This is a giant detractor for new people and a huge hinderance for the game growing and getting decent numbers.
All that being said, even though I've been increasingly dissapointed with almost every aspect of Vanguard, there are some "silver lining" moments that (almost) make the promise of a better game. The class selection for one is amazing, crafting is downright inspired and probably the best system I've seen in MMO history, some of the quest sequences surprise even me (and I'm one of those crazy people with 6000+ quests completed in EQ2) and so far there has been relatively quick patching of issues that range from small to game breaking.
All that is at very least a small step forward in the right direction but really, it's going to take a giant leap to put this sucker back in it's place and a complete switch in the thinking process of the community. For me, I'm sticking through it in hopes that something good is going to happen, there's just barely enough to keep going and at least see where we are in 30 days. After all, it's only fair to give it a decent shot but I don't know how many will or what will happen after the first 30 days.
Time will tell I suppose but all this is a giant, giant shame.
Curiously EQII and the Fae both have this immersion-sapping 'trait' which leads me to conclude Vanguard is using EQII's game engine*, which in turn makes Vanguard not EQ2.5 but 1.5 in my opinion due to fact it's rubbish given the development time and 'expertise' put into it.
Vanguard is using a Heavly Modifed Unreal Engine 2.5 with some Unreal Engine 3 Code added in it.
Um yall got it little wrong they already got the station acess subs .Soon as it went live it had all those even if it didnt sale one download or retail box they can claim those 200k + numbers.
Station access has 200k people? Hard to beleive. I would think around 55-60k at the very most.
About a year ago a SOE Dev slipped up in a interview and said that Station Access had about 50k subs. It probably went up a bit due to Vanguard but probably is still in the 50-60k range.
Hey Stoneysilenc um ya rember the game the dev was from?or where the interview was.i aint doubting what your saying one bit.but um some devs we seen over the years in eq well didnt know their but from a hole in the ground.SoE has a track record of devs that like to leave content unfinished .Put up artifical road blocks to slow players down while they fixed what has becomes paid beta for expansions an such.
That 50k number is intresting because we keept hearing it about eq .Not ever one bought their last expansion The Serpents Spine but they can by eq players prove theirs around 57k ish 71-75 level toons (have to own tss to be 71 an up).Now not ever player in eq has a 70ish toon,an few i know have station pass.were figureing around 70k active players atm in eq.
Still lets say station subs are at 50k x i think 25 a month .an can suport all those games an bandwith an servers..id think the profit margin is much more than most us players have been lead to think then.even at 50k thats 50k they can claim even if none of the station pass sub ever loged in to vanguard.
I found the link but the article no longer exists. If I remember right it was a EQ2 dev. Unfortunatly Vanguard isn't a SOE game so they don't see a penny from the All-Access if the person never logs in and plays Vanguard. I remember an article where Brad said that SOE had a way to know how many hours were played in Vanguard by a All-Access player and they would convert it to a percentage then they would get that percentage from that account. So if a player played Vanguard 50% of the time then they got 50%, if they never played Vanguard they wouldn't get anything.
Originally posted by shae Without massive changes to the fit and finish, production quality and overall quality to this game, IMO there is no bleeding chance in bloody hell that it could maintain any substantive numbers. Personally I think as it stands, 100k is extremely optimistic. Given of course that's it's still only a few days after launch, lots of positive changes could still happen but when you look at the core, fundemental mistakes in the game that are just so completely intergrated, you have to at least wonder about it's future. Beyond that the community only add's to the poor atmostphere in game. Never in my days of playing MMO's, and yes this includes WoW, have I seen such a horrid collection of people that have absolutely no patience for newcommers, have ZERO respect for their fellow gamers and have kill on sight order for anyone who even asks a few questions or heaven forbid critisizes some aspect of the game. This is a giant detractor for new people and a huge hinderance for the game growing and getting decent numbers. All that being said, even though I've been increasingly dissapointed with almost every aspect of Vanguard, there are some "silver lining" moments that (almost) make the promise of a better game. The class selection for one is amazing, crafting is downright inspired and probably the best system I've seen in MMO history, some of the quest sequences surprise even me (and I'm one of those crazy people with 6000+ quests completed in EQ2) and so far there has been relatively quick patching of issues that range from small to game breaking. All that is at very least a small step forward in the right direction but really, it's going to take a giant leap to put this sucker back in it's place and a complete switch in the thinking process of the community. For me, I'm sticking through it in hopes that something good is going to happen, there's just barely enough to keep going and at least see where we are in 30 days. After all, it's only fair to give it a decent shot but I don't know how many will or what will happen after the first 30 days. Time will tell I suppose but all this is a giant, giant shame.
I don't know what server you're playing on Shae but on my server which i thought would probably be the worst since it has a large contingent of old hardcore players on it the community has been quite a surprise. Generous with help and fun to play with. Maybe you should come play Vanguard with me and let me show you a good time.
Because without 200-250k there will be no profit which means no game. You gotta have a decent sub base. They could always sell it to SOE altogether but thats another story. but one which is possible and could happen.
Right, because AC has ever had that many subscribers? Or even close. DAoC at its peak did not have that many subscribers, and certainly doesn't now. I'm willing to wager most MMOs on the market do not have 125k subscribers. MMOs are very cheap to maintain.
But those games didn't start out with a $45 (EQ2's cost) to $75 (WoW's cost) million dollar deficit that they have to pay off. The higher the cost of the game the longer it will take to pay off or the more subs they need. Plus they have to pay SOE for their Servers, billing and CS, and pay their 100 developers that work for Sigil, rent and all the rest of the stuff.
Station pass is this games only hope. The should have started with half the servers than they did. That way at least the populations would look better. It is easier toi add servers athan consolodate, that is the kiss of death for a game.
Yes, the measure of a games success is whether Jackdog likes it or not I doubt LOTRO (AKA : WoW w/ Tolkienesque references) will do that well, in fact Im sure it will go the way of AC2 Also, Vanguard servers are packed. Of course you wouldnt know that since you don't play or have any intention of playing. Your only purpose is to make silly predictions in order to try and make yourself feel superior.
PS : How can you make such a clearly erroneous statement when games like SWG are STILL going?
Originally posted by SharkypalAlso, Vanguard servers are packed.
Eh, no they aren't. The servers are moderately crowded at best, not packed. Packed was WoW at release and a few weeks ago when TBC came out. This isn't "packed".
Comments
You are telling me, that with 5 gameplays (solo, grouping, raiding, Tradeskills and diplomacy) you can't think of any fine tuning? "Ironman" would be a possible PvE venture, but it doesn't have to be that. It could be a tradeskill venture, every item done in tradeskills has X10 to every stats, that would be an interesting variation to some players. It could be an "easy server" where the XP is a LOT easier to gain but that you can't play a character for more than 1 hour per day or whatever. And I am merely starting.
PvE has a LOT more possibilities of fine tuning than PvP...just thinking about it is mind blowing!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
No; you don't understand how endgame works.
With that 20% missing, I would be incredibly weak and unappealing for groups as time advance, the further the line you go, the more I will be backward and unable to get a group to face the outmost challenges. (Even FoH and LoS would agree here, if you get them to talk honestly; which I am not sure anyone at Sigil can...or they endorse it)
If you cut my feets, I still have 95% of my body, I can't run however, nor jump, maybe walk short distance. That 20% is not removable from grouping. I need it, just as I need my feets.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I noticed you still havent given me an awnser to my question...
Do you play Vanguard?
I beta it.
I would love the leveling to 50, I would love the first part of endgame...however...the ending...it would be terrible...and ruining everything. Which then affect me while I even am a lowly level 5, I already think that I will be backward and unable to complete the uber group zones, because I lack raid-gear, which in turn make me furious; rightfully might I add.
Asking me to play Vanguard would be like asking me to drop off a plane without a parachute, yes the fall would most certainly be awesome and cool, but knowing that you will splat on the ground, I would cry all the way. I need my parachute to jump of a plane and enjoy it. I need to know that the best groupers, they are groupers! Simple, really! And...this is not negociable...and a legitimate request.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
So, how do you know what end game in vanguard will be like since no one has seen it?
Is there some Dev forum post or something that I missed?
Cause from my understanding of what they have said about raiding is as follows.
Raids will not be a mandatory thing. The best gear will come from all aspects of the game not just raid.
But, really in the end what matter is having fun and right now I am having alot of fun in Vanguard.
Do I enjoy raiding? Not really. Sometimes I'll do it but usually no I don't raid.
I played WoW and I had fun. Did I raid? Nope not really. At 60 I was into PVP I made rank 12 before i stopped playing cause I became bored with the game.
WIll I raid in Vanguard? Maybe, maybe not.
Does the prospect of raiding make me wanna stop playing? Nope, not at all. I am glad they have raiding in the game. To me it is just another aspect of the game that I can, if I want, experiance and have an adventure with. The more content the better no matter if it's raiding, solo, or group.
I wasn't able to have fun in WoW either. I gave my account to a friend after playing the game less than 24 hours, I was raging. I won't buy any game that enforce raiding ever again, and I intend to help peoples understand that they don't have to cope with that at all in a HOBBY!
Peoples where telling me I didn't know squat about endgame in WoW by then...but I turn to be right, and everyone telling me to try it anyway, they where wrong and they agree with me now, once you hit level 60 it is horrible and you have to stop or raid (70 now with BC).
Raiding is mandatory if you plan on excelling in grouping...and I can't discard that in ANY game I play. I have to TRY to be the best grouper, thereby I will have to raid...or be a second class grouper. Both aren't acceptable options. So I won't buy the game until they fix that. Raiding can't be enforced on any grouper at any point, period. If something give 1 extra hps in group, then it is enforced.
I dunno why you make me derail another thread, I was on topic and on a side derail before you get me started about raiding, I think it is quite clear that they don't intend on fixing that, and that I won't change. But...sure, I always enjoy explaining it; again.
I am an evil power gamer, a hardcore player. However, I only accept to play a gameplay I want to master and/or a gameplay I find acceptable. I don't want to master raiding and I don't find it acceptable, yet, I want to master grouping and I have to try to master it, or just not play the whole game. There is no possible compromise there. I have to TRY, to DREAM, to advance in what I am doing and hope to get all the way up, or there are no point.
Remember, we are in a hobby here, not in RL...it is 100% logical that in a hobby, only a gameplay grant total mastery of itself, regardless of your opinion on how RL works or not.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
What part of Locked equals released?
See they added 1 new European server but they didn't start out with many there anyway.
Hmm are you even reading what I am saying?
I had fun in WoW. played it for 7 months. I never felt "forced" to raid. I PvPed when I hit 60 and had a blast doing it. I just got bored with the game itself had nothing to do with raiding. The few raids I went on I also had fun.
Sigil has said on several occations that raiding IS NOT ENFORCED. The best gear will be obtained from all spheres of the game..
I think your also missing the point that some people acctually do enjoy raiding. The guild I was in in Eq and WoW where big time raiding guilds and I have several RL friends who love raiding. They love the feeling they get with 40 or more people working together to accomplish a goal.
In EQ and WoW both I raided very little and yet because I knew my toon and understood my role in the group I was a very solid member of the groups. Everytime I logged on I recieved tells from people wanting me to go on a dungeon run with them. I didnt have one single piece of raid gear. So, to me gear isn't as important as knowing your toon and knowing your role and understanding how all the other classes in any game work so you understand their strengths and weaknesses so you can better compliment them in a group setting.
I have also group with people decked out in tier 2 and 3 raid gear and they were as worthless in a group as a gnat. why? Cause they had no idea what they were doing. They didn't fully understand their toon and made some really stupid choices.
If you feel that you have to raid to be a good memeber of a group in any game. I feel bad for you. It isnt what you are wearing that makes a toon a good grouper it's how you play that toon that makes you a good grouper and your knowledge of the game itself.
Splitting hairs don't you think? What's the real difference between it being created and released other than time to bring it online? It could be up now for all I know. Obviously they felt the need to add another one because of the population numbers none of us know.
Just not worth my time anymore.
Hey Stoneysilenc um ya rember the game the dev was from?or where the interview was.i aint doubting what your saying one bit.but um some devs we seen over the years in eq well didnt know their but from a hole in the ground.SoE has a track record of devs that like to leave content unfinished .Put up artifical road blocks to slow players down while they fixed what has becomes paid beta for expansions an such.
That 50k number is intresting because we keept hearing it about eq .Not ever one bought their last expansion The Serpents Spine but they can by eq players prove theirs around 57k ish 71-75 level toons (have to own tss to be 71 an up).Now not ever player in eq has a 70ish toon,an few i know have station pass.were figureing around 70k active players atm in eq.
Still lets say station subs are at 50k x i think 25 a month .an can suport all those games an bandwith an servers..id think the profit margin is much more than most us players have been lead to think then.even at 50k thats 50k they can claim even if none of the station pass sub ever loged in to vanguard.
Basicaly vanguard players shouldn't worry about if they will make 250k subs so Brad can claim the game profitable.50k ish subs is enuff for it to live its potential 7 year or more life span i get that life span from this actualy..
" This is true. Being ahead of the pack *is* going to hurt us short term but long term it also gives us an engine that will continue to look good for years to come and one that is architected to take advantage of new technology on the horizon (dx 10, physics cards, 64bit clients, taking advantage of multi-core cpus, etc.). Vanguard is an MMOG focused heavily on longevity. EQ, the game we worked on first, was not designed technologically nor from a game mechanics perspective to last a long time -- we were just blown away by how successful it was.
But the result turned out that we released expansions that obsoleted the old world, needlessly increased the rate of MUDflation signficantly, ran into some major issues upgrading the engine for Luclin to keep it looking current, etc. Now I have to say, huge hats off to the EQ teams that came after me -- they've kept the game going for 7 years now. That said, Vanguard is designed in all ways to last just as long, and likely much longer. And that includes the way we architected the graphics engine. We have detailed documents describing the rest of the world, where we want to go with expansions, what features we want to add, etc. And many of the features in the game are designed to be iteraively evolved into these more advanced systems -- for example, the housing system we are launching with has all of the features of SW:G and more, but is also designed and coded such that further evolving it into a player city system with RTS elements, etc. is not going to be a huge task."
Brad McQuaid
CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Exec. Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. from http://www.guforums.com/showthread.php?t=10445&page=3
Oh yeah any one got a link to these detailed documents descrbing the rest of the world?
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard, The Tower of the Elephant (1933)
I think it is you that don't read. Oh come on about that: Gear don't matter, skill does. I solo mobs in EQ that can kill me in 1 tick, summon and I am telling you that I NEED that extra gear. Skills matter only if you have the necessary tools to back it up. Saying otherwise is BS.
Brad also said that raiding wasn't enforced in EQ until recently, he also said that monks wouldn't be the pullers, that quad kiting wouldn't be possible and so on.
Sigil mades the conscious choice to please to a TINY minority that request raiding enforcement, I never said that raiding must be removed from every server, or that it even have to be removed, as long as raiding grants NO EXCLUSIVE GROUPING rewards, I don't care about it. As long as raiding grants 1 extra hp in groups, RAIDING IS ENFORCED. This is the basic of the endgame dynamic. Making personnal attacks only prove my points.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
They should focus on advertising about raiding then, if they are so sure of it. I see them advertised about grouping and freedom however. Grouping is massive. Especially if you do PUGs all the time.
If a minority requires raid-enforcement, it is illogical to grant them that request.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Sigil will try to cater to as many people in as many ways as possible. Bottom line. I understand some people like PVP, some people like raiding, some like crafting, etc. Taking raiding out of a game like Vanguard would be a deal breaker for many, many people. Vanguard has been touted as a grouping game. If this is the case you should be fine in the gear Grouping, Crafting and Diplomacy gets you.
Just not worth my time anymore.
Now as a lot of people well saying this was EQ2.5 I was expecting something along the lines of the EQ Fae expansion content. Well there certainly is a lot of similarities in Vanguard, right down to my favourite turn-off in EQ.......Ranged attacks.
Can someone please tell me how this works.
1. Target a mob at a distance.
2. Select your bow attack. Bow animation begins.
3. Before your avatatr has even raised his bow to full height the MOB's damage appears above his sorry head. ????
4. MOB, now enraged starts legging it towards you. Bow animation still in progress the arrow is now loosed and 'hits' the MOB as it's running towards you. ????
5. MOB has now made up the distance to you and starts hitting you. Bow animation still not complete. ????
6. Take a couple of hits from the MOB whilst you wait for your bow animation to complete so you can draw your melee weapon. ????
Curiously EQII and the Fae both have this immersion-sapping 'trait' which leads me to conclude Vanguard is using EQII's game engine*, which in turn makes Vanguard not EQ2.5 but 1.5 in my opinion due to fact it's rubbish given the development time and 'expertise' put into it.
Gameplay is curiously rubbish when, by rights, it shouldn't be. Perhaps it's the odd stunted animations of my character or the fact he's floating above the ground which is putting me off. Perhaps it's the ever-so rubbish combat. Perhaps it's the bland environments. Perhaps it's the bugs (tried diplomacy and was told to drag cards onto a board, but they just WOULD NOT drag). Perhaps it's the (no offense) too-cheery college boy US accents of the NPC's and thier limited responses. Perhaps it's the feeling of 'Oh no not again' you get when you see a promising MMO turns out out to be an undeveloped, under designed pile of poop.
So my 30 day sub has started but I must be honest and say "Oi Vanguard....Im not going to be one of those 100K users unless you sort out the basics and jolly fast too....particulary the ranged attack timings :P".
* Sorry if this is common knowledge. I haven't read it anywhere.
Any company can be brought by any company but is it going to happen, will Brad sell up his lifes work? And what will he have afterwards?
Its like saying Turbine could be brought by SOE... It COULD happen.
well he sold EQ to SoE, im sure when he thinks up a new game and story etc he'll definitely sell out vanguard to SoE when the time comes...
Any company can be brought by any company but is it going to happen, will Brad sell up his lifes work? And what will he have afterwards?
Its like saying Turbine could be brought by SOE... It COULD happen.
well he sold EQ to SoE, im sure when he thinks up a new game and story etc he'll definitely sell out vanguard to SoE when the time comes...
i hear he was a part of soe, and did not like what soe did to the game, and left soe.....
Without massive changes to the fit and finish, production quality and overall quality to this game, IMO there is no bleeding chance in bloody hell that it could maintain any substantive numbers. Personally I think as it stands, 100k is extremely optimistic.
Given of course that's it's still only a few days after launch, lots of positive changes could still happen but when you look at the core, fundemental mistakes in the game that are just so completely intergrated, you have to at least wonder about it's future. Beyond that the community only add's to the poor atmostphere in game.
Never in my days of playing MMO's, and yes this includes WoW, have I seen such a horrid collection of people that have absolutely no patience for newcommers, have ZERO respect for their fellow gamers and have kill on sight order for anyone who even asks a few questions or heaven forbid critisizes some aspect of the game. This is a giant detractor for new people and a huge hinderance for the game growing and getting decent numbers.
All that being said, even though I've been increasingly dissapointed with almost every aspect of Vanguard, there are some "silver lining" moments that (almost) make the promise of a better game. The class selection for one is amazing, crafting is downright inspired and probably the best system I've seen in MMO history, some of the quest sequences surprise even me (and I'm one of those crazy people with 6000+ quests completed in EQ2) and so far there has been relatively quick patching of issues that range from small to game breaking.
All that is at very least a small step forward in the right direction but really, it's going to take a giant leap to put this sucker back in it's place and a complete switch in the thinking process of the community. For me, I'm sticking through it in hopes that something good is going to happen, there's just barely enough to keep going and at least see where we are in 30 days. After all, it's only fair to give it a decent shot but I don't know how many will or what will happen after the first 30 days.
Time will tell I suppose but all this is a giant, giant shame.
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About a year ago a SOE Dev slipped up in a interview and said that Station Access had about 50k subs. It probably went up a bit due to Vanguard but probably is still in the 50-60k range.
Hey Stoneysilenc um ya rember the game the dev was from?or where the interview was.i aint doubting what your saying one bit.but um some devs we seen over the years in eq well didnt know their but from a hole in the ground.SoE has a track record of devs that like to leave content unfinished .Put up artifical road blocks to slow players down while they fixed what has becomes paid beta for expansions an such.
That 50k number is intresting because we keept hearing it about eq .Not ever one bought their last expansion The Serpents Spine but they can by eq players prove theirs around 57k ish 71-75 level toons (have to own tss to be 71 an up).Now not ever player in eq has a 70ish toon,an few i know have station pass.were figureing around 70k active players atm in eq.
Still lets say station subs are at 50k x i think 25 a month .an can suport all those games an bandwith an servers..id think the profit margin is much more than most us players have been lead to think then.even at 50k thats 50k they can claim even if none of the station pass sub ever loged in to vanguard.
I found the link but the article no longer exists. If I remember right it was a EQ2 dev. Unfortunatly Vanguard isn't a SOE game so they don't see a penny from the All-Access if the person never logs in and plays Vanguard. I remember an article where Brad said that SOE had a way to know how many hours were played in Vanguard by a All-Access player and they would convert it to a percentage then they would get that percentage from that account. So if a player played Vanguard 50% of the time then they got 50%, if they never played Vanguard they wouldn't get anything.
I don't know what server you're playing on Shae but on my server which i thought would probably be the worst since it has a large contingent of old hardcore players on it the community has been quite a surprise. Generous with help and fun to play with. Maybe you should come play Vanguard with me and let me show you a good time.
Make a difference!
But those games didn't start out with a $45 (EQ2's cost) to $75 (WoW's cost) million dollar deficit that they have to pay off. The higher the cost of the game the longer it will take to pay off or the more subs they need. Plus they have to pay SOE for their Servers, billing and CS, and pay their 100 developers that work for Sigil, rent and all the rest of the stuff.
Station pass is this games only hope. The should have started with half the servers than they did. That way at least the populations would look better. It is easier toi add servers athan consolodate, that is the kiss of death for a game.
Yes, the measure of a games success is whether Jackdog likes it or not
PS : How can you make such a clearly erroneous statement when games like SWG are STILL going?
Eh, no they aren't. The servers are moderately crowded at best, not packed. Packed was WoW at release and a few weeks ago when TBC came out. This isn't "packed".