You have to solo in this game because you start across the world from your friends depending on what class / race you want to play.
Kyle>> No argument there, that is exactly how the game starts out. If playing with your friends from level one onward is important, than you must all roll races/classes found on same continent. Many people in my guild are Orcs for that reason. (but I'm Varathari, so I'm alone more) Just the choice I made, and hasn't proven too onerous...
At low levels it is IMpossible to travel to and from, and until you can afford a horse and want to take the two hour cruise through the countryside to where you can hop on a boat, you're stuck soloing.
Kyle>>I haven't been on every continent, but this is not true on Qalia. While I certainly wouldn't recommend that you try to travel to a new continent much before level 10, I have several guildmates who did exactly that...(at level 7) they made their way to Khal (an enemy city) and caught a boat to Martok. Was a challenge to be sure..but not an insurrmountable one I assure you. As far as soloing goes, leveling from 1-8 takes very little time...and I doubt there is any class out there that can't complete most of the quests they find (except the group ones) solo. (I even did a few of the group ones solo, which is probably bad quest design, but hey). You don't need a horse to pull this off... you can run there if you are patient... and it isnt a 2 hour run..no more than 45 minutes tops I'm thinking
If they want a group-centric raid-centric game that's fine, but they shouldnt a) say that this game will appeal to all sorts of players, because it doesn't and b) make it so damned hard to get anywhere so that you CAN group.
Kyle>>Well, it does appeal to all sorts of players, but I think they were pretty clear it wasn't going to cater real well to people who wanted to "only" solo. They did say...you will want to group to experience full content of the game. As to it being too hard to get anywhere, that's mostly because we don't know "how" to get anywhere. Turns out there's a good system of boats and teleporters, and if your on the side of Order you have it made since all the cities are friendly to your side. (I play on the Varking Pvp server, we Shadow have to either gain faction or be very careful trying to reach capitol cities.). If you are on a Pve server, you have even fewer challenges, though I'm not sure you wouldn't have some faction issues still.
I don't know about you, but so far I've had things in my quest journal that are regular quests, and some that say "Group Quest." Implying, at least to me, that the ones that DON'T say group quest should be able to be done on your own. But the fact of the matter is, beyond level 10, you can't solo.
Kyle>>I agree...I had this one non-group quest I got at level 8, that had me trying to kill a level ten, 3 dot mob...and I didn't know about the dot system then. I had been taking down level 10 mobs (2 dot) and figured...piece o'cake... Whoops I found out the hard way (about 3 or 4 times) that I could not beat him in any way. Well, I had two choices, get someone to help me (which my guildmates offered to do) or "wait" until I had leveled up a bit more. Well, I failed the quest at level 9, and again at level 10. (yes, I sort of suck) Then one of my guildies said.... the secret is to kite him with your snare.... (I'm a druid)... doh... well, I went back, and although it took two tries where I had to kite for at least 3 minutes (no kidding) I did manage to finally kill him. Point is...just because you get a quest at level 8..doesn't mean thats when you have to complete it, especially if you plan to solo.
Darksolitude is soloing because he's trying to catch up to his friends who are on another continent with no way to get to them. I'm soloing for the same reason - I'd make the trek to Thestra, except someone at Sigil had the brilliant decision to not allow disciples to be Thestrans of any kind ( or Kojans to be clerics of any kind ) so there isn't a single class trainer for me ON THE ENTIRE LAND MASS. Which means more and more two hour journeys on foot to get anywhere. Of course, seeing that my disciple is completely useless now, I guess I can GET MORE BEHIND by STARTING OVER AGAIN as a RACE I DON'T WANT TO PLAY so that I can actually enjoy the game. We shouldn't have to do that =/
Kyle>> I submit...it just isnt that much soloing, while I waited a bit longer than most, by level 12 I was able to transport over to Martok...and hunt in the gardens with my guildmates and... horrors... a PUG. You too can hunt with a PUG..esp as a Disciple. I hunted with 3 or 4 PUGs one night to clear out the lair of the Green witch and get about 6 quests done in there. Was some good times and some bad..but overall I felt a sense of accomplishment in getting that done. Next on the list is the Scorpian Lair. As to the training issue, I imagine that Bard's have the sam problem on the Shadow side...they can only be Dark elves... so what it means is you leave your personal bind point back in home territory and port back there when need be. I don't think its outside the lore of an RPG game to be forced to train back in your native land.... inconvienient perhaps, but it is consistent. And stop with the 2 hour exaggerations...unless you are on a FFA or team PVP server where ganking could slow you down. (doesn't me..but I'm sly about manuvering around the world.... like...don't take the roads, eh?). As to the complaint that your disciple is useless, once again, I call shenanigans. I have a guildmate with a level 14 disciple, and while he did notice the nerfs, he did not describe himself as useless. Perhaps you need to learn how to play the class in its proper role, as a support healer, not as an offensive mage which it was unfortunately first implemented as. (and way overpowered.... took 3 of us at level 12 to pull down one level 14 disciple, and it took about 3 minutes to do it.... )
I admire the many people who still give their faith and support to this game. I used to be one of you, patiently waiting for the game to be fixed, telling the complainers that Sigil will fix everything in due time. But after this "Emergency Patch" during prime time yesterday that fixed exactly zero of hte major issues and instead distributed nerfs to classes that already were kind of dependent on other classes to accomplish anything well, I have to say they lost a lot of my respect.
Kyle>> LOL, you complain about being nerfed. I got the ultimate nerf from yesterday's patch.... a fairly large number of players including me found themselves unable to log in on our mains...could only log in on our alts (and not always then). That remained unfixed as of when I went to bed last night. Was I pissed off? Yep, I was... but I'm over it.... hopefully they'll have this resolved by tonight and I'll continue onwards. Please don't get so stressed about nerfs. If you really don't like them, or feel they went too far, the correct response is to log on to the Sigil Tech support forums and make a reasoned pitch to have the nerf's reduced or eliminated. As I mentioned in another thread...my Druid has had powers taken away (i.e. snare), given back, and then balanced (fewer resists)...and I'll bet the fine-tuning on that skill isn't over....
No one likes to see their character change from walking gods (everyone could see the Disciple nerf bat coming from a mile away) into mere mortals like the rest of us... (hey...I can't kill a same level 3 dot mob w/o a 3 minute kite...) but if you'll be patient, and not expect to own all, then you'll find the game will work out to an enjoyable experience.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't have TIME to spend even 45 minutes simply running around trying to get back to a continent where I have a trainer because my class isn't available on a certain continent.
And 45 minutes is all it takes you? Took me about 2 hours - but then again, I may be missing an essential portal NPC somewhere - though I did a bit of research and asked quite a few people no one could tell me a shorter route.
And honestly, the few pick up groups I have been in have all wiped quite horribly because people do something stupid. I don't have time for that, either. I have maybe a few hours a night to play on weeknights, and I want to GET somewhere, not look for a team, not stand around while my team chats about whats on TV or goes afk or gets lost or wipes. I like achievement. I don't really care if my character is a 'walking god', I just want to be able to do the quests I am given within a reasonable time frame. If I can't do it at level 8, then by 10 or 11 I think I should be able to do it. I don't consider that unreasonable.
As for your implication that I need to 'learn how to play my class as its intended role' just...go away. I picked up the class and played it with the skills that are available to me. I can support a team if need be, or I can solo if my window of game time requires it. I'm fully capable of assuming multiple roles - the problem is that it is very difficult to find a group of people, as spread out as we are.
Though after this nerf, even with the end fix, our damage is not superior to any other healer, but our ability to heal has been greatly decreased. Does this mean that all healers will soon be expecting this sort of heal nerf? I mean, The Disciple HoT Blessed Wind II now heals for 24 points a tick. My cleric of the same level HoTs for about 100 a tick. I fail to see why disc heal needed to be changed based on these numbers. If we just compare to the cleric, you will see that Clerics get a WHOLE bunch of things that discs dont get, (better armor, more attacks, a TON of buffs, roots, insta heal, end regen, AoE, etc.). Discs get to...hit stuff...and cast a crappy HoT on themselves. ^^ Which is why the decision was a surprise to me, I would have thought clerics had it coming first. But I guess not enough people whined about them yet XD.
Also I never said you couldn't solo to level 8. But beyond that you really start needing a team to do anything, even before the nerf.
Gaming? That's not gaming! That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
Shouldn't take you 45 minutes to get back to your trainer...leave your bind point near one and you'll be back in no time. Now, its true, getting back to your origin point could take some time...but long travel times was actually a design choice of this game. They are going to implement caravans soon that let players actually join up and go afk...and the caravan will deposit you at your destination at some later point. Sorry you don't care for it (I'm not crazy about travel times either), but I've decided to live with the designer's choice.
As to my 45 minutes vs your 2 hours...well, I'm on Qalia in a nearby town named Lomshir..and its quite possible that your starter area is very far from a nearby port. I remember in beta I played a half-elf sorcerer up to level 6...and found a way to a port city.... was so close to my bind point that it took like 10 minutes, with no fighting. So obviously, your results will vary by racial choice. Not fair I agree, but just the way it is.
As to PUGs...yep, PUGs wipe. We're all new, and we're all learning the game and our classes. That night I cleared the Green witch caves we wiped at least 5 times. I remember the 2nd time we died trying to pull 3 mobs... 2 people left in disgust. We died because 3 other people had left during mid pull to go complete an earlier quest line that they missed. I stuck it out..we picked up 2 more people, and we wiped a 3rd time. I'll never forget this comment one guy made to our sorcerer..who was aoe pulling the 3 mobs. "Have you tried just pulling them one at a time?" Sorcerer said he just figured they would all come regardless. So we went back in and solo pulled them..and surprise..they came one at a time..and we got past that roadblock. Sure, I could have written these folks off as farken idiots, but the reality is they were just inexperienced. We went on to clear the entire dungeon and had a successful night. (though I did stay up till 2:30 am that night, but hey..was just one night's lost sleep)
Regarding the suggestion about playing the class.... you misunderstand. Sigil intends for healers to be support classes, and is balancing to build a symbiosis between you and others. Now, I agree...it sounds like they really over-nerfed healing...not sure why they would do that...but expect it to come back around if it truely is onerous. But something did need to be done with the class, like I said before, took 3 level 12's to yank down one 14 disciple (in 3 minutes) ..and that just shouldn't be...... As to clerics..I agree..and you'll see the nerf bat swing their way very shortly.
And I agree..after level 8 you really do need to start working on grouping up with other folks... soloing past there (only) is a painful slow process..which by the way you can still do... I can solo kill mobs all night and grind it out if that's my preference..but I find completing quests to be more effiecient and fun....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Whats the big deal about traveling almost every mmo you have to travel wow you had to travel to get tho the grifen trainer, eq2 you had to travel, traveling is just part of the game to make it seem more real, them made it that way so ppl can see new area an explore as they go they might bring in a way to teleport after a while after you visit a place who knows time will tell. as for soloing or grouping you can solo up to lvl 20+ if you wanted i soloed to lvl 13 on my dread knight in under 2 days its not that hard, it just depends on the way you want to play they have many solo quests an group quests an even elite quests( an boy o boy when they say elite they mean elite lol) but to complain about traveling or solo vs grouping is nothing new every mmo has heared all this before, the bashen of minor things like this will never stop... the point in vanguard is to just play the game how you want to play it, ppl say there arnt that many options but there is you can solo, group, quest, grind, lvl crafting or diplomicy or lvl adventuring, crafting, and diplomicy together.... the game is doing a good job on given you the chance to do so much. Just keep your mind open to what will come... the game has already reached over 150,000 players if you dnt believe me check the player count... this game is growing an ppl are enjoying it... forges are crowed groups are shouting for ppl an the number of every one doing so is increasen daily
I seriously have no problem with haters, but can we PLEASE get the facts right, and not just use this to further our Anti-SOE crusade. This is like the one time in history SOE DIDN'T mess things up.
Geez...
Those "facts" may have been valid BEFORE $OE invested in Vanguard's development. Who do you think has been keeping Sigil's lights on and payroll paid the last 6 months or more? That's right kids, $OE... Sony Online Entertainment. They've invested serious money in the company, even Brad's message earlier in this very post states that FLAT OUT.
Who set the early release deadline? Sony again. They wanted this game shipped before WoW's expansion, done or not. Half done games are their Modus operandi.
So go ahead and keep the denial mojo going. $OE has been involved in the decision making process. If not, Sigil has proven they are as stupid as Sony is.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
SOE may be an investor, but last I saw, investors didn't work for the company they invested in. YES, ultimately they are responsible for the satisfaction of their investors, but they have NO CREATIVE CONTROL over the game. They can give their opinions on things, but no corporate entity is going to be strong-armed into doing something they don't think is beneficial or necessary. Fact of the matter is, SOE does not own Sigil and they have no control over the corporation's developmental decisions. And for people to automatically link the failures of SWG to Vanguard is idiotic. And all you SOE haters are just so immature and angst-filled that you feel the urge to bitch about anything and everything. Do you not buy Sony televisions or products because they own SOE? Are their headphones inferior because some dip-shit screwed up a Star Wars game?
I seriously have no problem with haters, but can we PLEASE get the facts right, and not just use this to further our Anti-SOE crusade. This is like the one time in history SOE DIDN'T mess things up.
Geez...
Those "facts" may have been valid BEFORE $OE invested in Vanguard's development. Who do you think has been keeping Sigil's lights on and payroll paid the last 6 months or more? That's right kids, $OE... Sony Online Entertainment. They've invested serious money in the company, even Brad's message earlier in this very post states that FLAT OUT.
Who set the early release deadline? Sony again. They wanted this game shipped before WoW's expansion, done or not. Half done games are their Modus operandi.
So go ahead and keep the denial mojo going. $OE has been involved in the decision making process. If not, Sigil has proven they are as stupid as Sony is.
Sorry, but SOE gave Sigil a full extra year to develop this game. Microsoft wasn't even willing to give them the extra extension.
Frankly, this is perhaps the only time I can recall where SOE did something that didn't screw the game up. In my opinion, if you can't release a quality product after 6 years, that's the DEVELOPERS fault for hiring such crappy programmers and being a poor leader, not their investor's fault for having faith in the product.
Sigil dropped the ball here, period. This is Vanguard, not Star Wars Galaxies.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
What? It is? From all of the convoluted bullshit that the SOE haters are spouting in virtually every Vanguard thread they get their bitter, bitter little hands on, you wouldn't think that. As a matter of fact, the same goes for EQ2. My God? They're different games?
Seriously. I played SWG too. SOE fucked it up. It's not going to change, and they're not going to take it back. You guys really need to get over it, and give other games a chance. Just because SOE is attached, doesn't instantly mean the game is going to blow. It may be your opinion that Vanguard isn't any good, but if one of your main reasons for that is because SOE is involved, then you're an idiot.
Edit:
In retrospect, this post is a bit harsh, but my point remains the same.
_________________
The above post is purely my opinion. If you disagree, that's your right. However, don't be an ass about it.
I seriously have no problem with haters, but can we PLEASE get the facts right, and not just use this to further our Anti-SOE crusade. This is like the one time in history SOE DIDN'T mess things up.
Geez...
Those "facts" may have been valid BEFORE $OE invested in Vanguard's development. Who do you think has been keeping Sigil's lights on and payroll paid the last 6 months or more? That's right kids, $OE... Sony Online Entertainment. They've invested serious money in the company, even Brad's message earlier in this very post states that FLAT OUT.
Who set the early release deadline? Sony again. They wanted this game shipped before WoW's expansion, done or not. Half done games are their Modus operandi.
So go ahead and keep the denial mojo going. $OE has been involved in the decision making process. If not, Sigil has proven they are as stupid as Sony is.
Sorry, but SOE gave Sigil a full extra year to develop this game. Microsoft wasn't even willing to give them the extra extension.
Frankly, this is perhaps the only time I can recall where SOE did something that didn't screw the game up. In my opinion, if you can't release a quality product after 6 years, that's the DEVELOPERS fault for hiring such crappy programmers and being a poor leader, not their investor's fault for having faith in the product.
Sigil dropped the ball here, period. This is Vanguard, not Star Wars Galaxies.
BRAVO! its about time somone said it the way it is,the only problem is its the same old rejected swg vets stalking every soe forum to bash anything soe,they wont listen or take heed to any educated comments even if they havnt even played said game in discussion they go off snippets of shite gathered between the soe haters club and will counter bash this post regardless they are right everyone else is wrong in there minds ,ok so soe screwed up swg AGREED!,and your pissed about it so was i i loved swg pre everything
but eq2 is better than it ever has been,mxo was never there fault in the first place but is better than it ever was under monlith,eq1 the newest expansions have been excellent when you consider the age of the game,soe dont kill every game they touch just SWG!,now ive got over it why dont yall soe haters put yer toy lightsabers back in your cots and give us all a break!
everyone stopped listening to your whining a long time ago!
What? It is? From all of the convoluted bullshit that the SOE haters are spouting in virtually every Vanguard thread they get their bitter, bitter little hands on, you wouldn't think that. As a matter of fact, the same goes for EQ2. My God? They're different games?
Seriously. I played SWG too. SOE fucked it up. It's not going to change, and they're not going to take it back. You guys really need to get over it, and give other games a chance. Just because SOE is attached, doesn't instantly mean the game is going to blow. It may be your opinion that Vanguard isn't any good, but if one of your main reasons for that is because SOE is involved, then you're an idiot.
Edit:
In retrospect, this post is a bit harsh, but my point remains the same.
Somebody is an idiot for taking into account a company's track record before investing their time and money into their game? I think you'd be an idiot not to.
I am more than willing to give other games a chance--just not games from SOE. (And before the vanboys start in, I know that Sigil developed the game but as soon as they sold their souls to SOE that became a moot point.)
What? It is? From all of the convoluted bullshit that the SOE haters are spouting in virtually every Vanguard thread they get their bitter, bitter little hands on, you wouldn't think that. As a matter of fact, the same goes for EQ2. My God? They're different games?
Seriously. I played SWG too. SOE fucked it up. It's not going to change, and they're not going to take it back. You guys really need to get over it, and give other games a chance. Just because SOE is attached, doesn't instantly mean the game is going to blow. It may be your opinion that Vanguard isn't any good, but if one of your main reasons for that is because SOE is involved, then you're an idiot.
Edit:
In retrospect, this post is a bit harsh, but my point remains the same.
Somebody is an idiot for taking into account a company's track record before investing their time and money into their game? I think you'd be an idiot not to.
I am more than willing to give other games a chance--just not games from SOE. (And before the vanboys start in, I know that Sigil developed the game but as soon as they sold their souls to SOE that became a moot point.)
What? It is? From all of the convoluted bullshit that the SOE haters are spouting in virtually every Vanguard thread they get their bitter, bitter little hands on, you wouldn't think that. As a matter of fact, the same goes for EQ2. My God? They're different games?
Seriously. I played SWG too. SOE fucked it up. It's not going to change, and they're not going to take it back. You guys really need to get over it, and give other games a chance. Just because SOE is attached, doesn't instantly mean the game is going to blow. It may be your opinion that Vanguard isn't any good, but if one of your main reasons for that is because SOE is involved, then you're an idiot.
Edit:
In retrospect, this post is a bit harsh, but my point remains the same.
Somebody is an idiot for taking into account a company's track record before investing their time and money into their game? I think you'd be an idiot not to.
I am more than willing to give other games a chance--just not games from SOE. (And before the vanboys start in, I know that Sigil developed the game but as soon as they sold their souls to SOE that became a moot point.)
See you in 6 months when you get your head together and come back. A wise man once said "it's harder to blaze the trail than it is to follow in another's footsteps" You go ahead and wimp out on a great game, we'll stick with it and reap the rewards.
Let me start out this post by stating I am not a SOE hater by any means.
Now with that said, what some of you people fail to realize is that Sony as of right now hold the purse strings. And in the business world (which this is by the way) they do in fact make decisions regarding this game. Of course they don't give a shit if the Warrior class got nerfed or if the effects for a fireball spell look amazing or what the NPC's names are or the day to day patches, etc... etc...
What they do "suggest" to Brad and the devs. is when to release the game. When to release an expansion. Make the game harder over all to increase monthly subs. (gotta play longer to level up).
SOE has made an investment with Sigil and in order to see a return on that investment they will push Sigil hard in order for them to see their vested interests get accomplished.
I don't know how old many of you are, but that is the way it works in the business world. He who holds the "Benjamin's " holds the control.
Originally posted by parrotpholk They may have loaned money to get by the last few months and they also lended them some of EQ2s dev team.
And how people claim $OE is not involved is beyond me.
They also blame server problems on Sigil... yet Sony runs the servers.
Vanbois.. look at it without the rose colored glasses. You want to believe so much you refuse to see the pattern, you refuse to see the signs.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Sigil developed the game, for those of you that ACTUALLY purchased and installed the game, Sony's name is literally all over it. Not to mention Sony completely obliterated the original Vanguard forums that was created by Sigil that had threads specifically meant for player feedback. As Sigil, at least originally cared about it's players feedback and overall satisfaction with the game.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Sigil is pulling the strings of this one. SOE provides servers, billing, marketing, tech support and distribution. Hence why their logo is all over it. Just like movies that are released by Pixar are distributed by Disney so they have the Disney logo all over them even though Disney was just the distributor, etc... Brad himself has said so about SOE. If you don't believe Brad then who are you gonna believe? Probably nobody.
Brad said HE didn't want official forums because it builds communities. SOE didn't take down the forums. All other SOE games have forums, Vanguard is the only one that doesn't.
Well constructive criticism I can take, and I will honestly admit that those particular details were unknown to me. My only purpose in starting this thread was to state that the game as of right now is essentially paying a monthly subscription to beta test a game that obviously wasn't ready for release. Also that the game as of right now is borked beyond belief, something that people who are still teetering on whether or not to purchase the game right now to at least wait 6 months while hopefully all the game-breaking problems are ironed out. As they should take priority over completely screwing up character models and class skills. I appreciate the constructive criticism, as I meant for this originally to be an informative post, not a whining or bitchfest. Whereas everyone else just appears to see it as flame bait.
Well if you had read about the game a little bit before buying it you would have run into a quote by Brad (CEO of Sigil) saying that they ran out of money and it was still in beta stages but it was release or die.
"Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara
As for launching, yes it may be fairly close to the WoW expansion, but that's not something we can control. SOE has given us financing that has gotten us a lot further than our previous publisher, but at some point you have to launch a game. If we could have a couple more months of development, sure, that would be great. If we could have another year, we could do a lot more too. But again, the game has to launch at some point and we know when that is. I'm pretty proud of how much funding, marketing, etc. we've received to-date. We have over 100 people workiing on this game. That said, we're not Blizzard either (yet). So the polish, time, and budet they had isn't what we've had, although we probably come in second. The game is also different -- Vanguard is more about freedom, attracting people who want a more challenging long term home, providing a game for old school EQ players and also WoW players looking for either/both something new and/or something more free and immersive. That means Vanguard is going to offer features and an evironment that is different and better IMHO than WoW, but also be a very different game than WoW, where we are focussed on different things and have different priorities."
Err.. replies like that always bother me. No one should be, or feel, obligated to all kinds of reading and research on a game before buying it. Not having done so makes their opinion no less valid than someone who has.
Someone goes into a store, sees the box for Vanguard, thinks it looks really cool - even having heard nothing about it prior to that - and decides to buy it. They take the game home, having every reasonable expectation that it will perform well enough on their system (having checked the system specs and finding their system falls well within the recommended setup). They get home, start playing the game and find some variety of issues - be it performance, difficulty, etc...
So they post their thoughts on a forum, like this, and someone tells them.. "Well, if you'd done your research..."
It's just a bit ignorant and arrogant, to me, to expect people to do all kinds of research before buying a game - even more so to dismiss their views because they didn't.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by Nevarion Originally posted by Stoneysilenc ...Brad said HE didn't want official forums because it builds communities.
And that is bad?
(Between I catched his drift but still I think it is hilarious funny in some way.)
Build communities? lol. More like, stall for time, hope for a miracle, implement damage control.
It's a quick-fix move to avoid having to answer hundres of important questions about the game bugs and nerfs---Sigil can ignore angry players because they can't post on Sigil's forum---it doesn't have one! This also makes the official Vanguard website 100% pure marketing spam. Without a centralized, official forum the opinions expressed by angry players cannot influence potential players who are thinking about buying the game and have come looking for forums so they can read up on what the game is like. It's true that potential (and current) players could find the "emerging" community forums and read bad things there but at least Sigil's website will be shiney clean, and lots of new people will visit that site long before they figure out there are "communities" that host forums.
World of Warcraft pulled a similar fast one. They deleted every single post since the first week of the retail game in their official forum. This was accomplished under the guise of providing a new and improved forum. With tears in their eyes, Blizzard informed players that the old forum posts just could not be incorporated into the new forum, and the fan boys and girls applauded and forgave them for not knowing how to save all of that data. In one fell swoop Blizzard disappeared thousands of player threads that detailed how bad WoW was from the start, and how badly Blizzard had responded to problems.
I dont know how this SOEs fault. This is Sigils fault. I lost pretty much all respect for sigil and Brad. I was very optimistic duing beta (crazy speedy AND constructive patching) but after release, screwups started streaming up into the patch. I could deal with bugs and stuff, as long as they kept fixing them however slowly. But they kept adding new bugs, nerfing stuff that worked. This eliminated crafting and diplomacy for me completely. After 2 days of LFGing at lotus hold, i canceled my sub.
I hope Vanguard turns around with a series of good patches, but I lost my faith into miracle patches long time ago. Time to drown my dissappointment with beer.
I think its funny that all a game company has to do is get SOE to distribute their game and no matter how much this said game company screws up a game.. it gets blamed on SOE
its a win-win situation for sigil lol
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
The only thing SOE should take the blame for is publishing and hosting Vanguard in the first place.
I do think that alot of the changes to the gameplay that were implemented from the summer of '06 to present were mandated by SOE. They looked VG over and said "We'll pick up your game but you need to change X, Y and Z."
So alot of Brad's "innovative" gameplay features were cut and things like flying mounts and a quest driven playstyle were put in. Judging by his posts from around that time this was not to his liking. But because his ideas weren't working it was decided that Vanguard needed to conform to the current market to be viable.
The only thing SOE should take the blame for is publishing and hosting Vanguard in the first place.
I do think that alot of the changes to the gameplay that were implemented from the summer of '06 to present were mandated by SOE. They looked VG over and said "We'll pick up your game but you need to change X, Y and Z."
So alot of Brad's "innovative" gameplay features were cut and things like flying mounts and a quest driven playstyle were put in. Judging by his posts from around that time this was not to his liking. But because his ideas weren't working it was decided that Vanguard needed to conform to the current market to be viable.
One thing that you have to keep in mind, is that at one time in the game developement industry independants marketed a game on a floppy disc, in a ziplock bag, with photocopied single page instructionsl, and a black and white photocopy of a picture on the zip lock bag for cover art.
Those days have changed, the players now in the industry are large dollar corporations. Sigil is trying to make a go of it as an independant, yet, conservatively, they have spent at least $12 million in wages, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, equipment, and supplies, just to name a few costs. The game was released now because they ran out of money. This was the last shot to salvage the game, by bringing in some revenue to fund developement. Salaries for one month are conservatively estimated at $375,000 based on 100 people at an average of $45,000/yr. Retail box sales have to cover marketing, packaging, CD manufacture, wholesaler (SOE) and retail markup. That doesn't leave Sigil much of the $50 retail cost to cover the $375,000 in salaries for February. And February is the free trial month. And based on the rate of patches, Sigil employees are working overtime, and SOE hardware fees have to be increasing to cover SOEs added costs. I'm also not counting the cost of borrowing SOE employees/developers to get the game in shape.
In order for Sigil to succeed they must deliver an improved, playable, balanced product by the end of the February 30 day trial period for Vanguard to remain a viable game. If players are disenchanted during February, they will, and are, cancelling their subscriptions to wait for Sigil to get the game together in 6 months. But, at a minimum wage cost of $375,000/month, with minimal revenue, Sigil will not have 6 months of financial resources to do this. And, with the projected release of GOH, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, and AoC, just to name a few, players may not wait 6 months on Vanguard. The window of opportunity is closing on Sigil, they are in a race for survival. They have about 20 more days to make it, or break it. These next 20 days will show what they are about.
Game developement by an independant developer in todays world is a real crap shoot. I wouldn't want to be in Brad's shoes about now, he's probably a little stressed. If not, he should be.
I dont think soe had anything to do with this game being as bad as it is. Just because that Brad guy made everquest doesnt mean he knows what hes doing today. They had plenty of time to make the game better than it is before they teamed with soe. And I do not like soe the way they just deleted all the classes in swg still makes me mad lol. But give credit where it is due, Brad is definitely not a god as people has posted lol.
I think it's funny how this gets blamed on SOE. They came in at the last minute and gave them extra time to try to finish the game. From what I've heard Sigil couldn't or wouldn't make a schedule with milestones and then hit those milestones. Something that MS is very big on. I think the game was finally released because they realized that more time wouldn't help out, might as well recoup what they could. The design decisions on the game had already limited the market (no solo, hard), and that market would buy the game before reviews were out.
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kyle, see the thing about travel is -
I don't have TIME to spend even 45 minutes simply running around trying to get back to a continent where I have a trainer because my class isn't available on a certain continent.
And 45 minutes is all it takes you? Took me about 2 hours - but then again, I may be missing an essential portal NPC somewhere - though I did a bit of research and asked quite a few people no one could tell me a shorter route.
And honestly, the few pick up groups I have been in have all wiped quite horribly because people do something stupid. I don't have time for that, either. I have maybe a few hours a night to play on weeknights, and I want to GET somewhere, not look for a team, not stand around while my team chats about whats on TV or goes afk or gets lost or wipes. I like achievement. I don't really care if my character is a 'walking god', I just want to be able to do the quests I am given within a reasonable time frame. If I can't do it at level 8, then by 10 or 11 I think I should be able to do it. I don't consider that unreasonable.
As for your implication that I need to 'learn how to play my class as its intended role' just...go away. I picked up the class and played it with the skills that are available to me. I can support a team if need be, or I can solo if my window of game time requires it. I'm fully capable of assuming multiple roles - the problem is that it is very difficult to find a group of people, as spread out as we are.
Though after this nerf, even with the end fix, our damage is not superior to any other healer, but our ability to heal has been greatly decreased. Does this mean that all healers will soon be expecting this sort of heal nerf? I mean, The Disciple HoT Blessed Wind II now heals for 24 points a tick. My cleric of the same level HoTs for about 100 a tick. I fail to see why disc heal needed to be changed based on these numbers. If we just compare to the cleric, you will see that Clerics get a WHOLE bunch of things that discs dont get, (better armor, more attacks, a TON of buffs, roots, insta heal, end regen, AoE, etc.). Discs get to...hit stuff...and cast a crappy HoT on themselves. ^^ Which is why the decision was a surprise to me, I would have thought clerics had it coming first. But I guess not enough people whined about them yet XD.
Also I never said you couldn't solo to level 8. But beyond that you really start needing a team to do anything, even before the nerf.
Gaming? That's not gaming!
That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
Shouldn't take you 45 minutes to get back to your trainer...leave your bind point near one and you'll be back in no time. Now, its true, getting back to your origin point could take some time...but long travel times was actually a design choice of this game. They are going to implement caravans soon that let players actually join up and go afk...and the caravan will deposit you at your destination at some later point. Sorry you don't care for it (I'm not crazy about travel times either), but I've decided to live with the designer's choice.
As to my 45 minutes vs your 2 hours...well, I'm on Qalia in a nearby town named Lomshir..and its quite possible that your starter area is very far from a nearby port. I remember in beta I played a half-elf sorcerer up to level 6...and found a way to a port city.... was so close to my bind point that it took like 10 minutes, with no fighting. So obviously, your results will vary by racial choice. Not fair I agree, but just the way it is.
As to PUGs...yep, PUGs wipe. We're all new, and we're all learning the game and our classes. That night I cleared the Green witch caves we wiped at least 5 times. I remember the 2nd time we died trying to pull 3 mobs... 2 people left in disgust. We died because 3 other people had left during mid pull to go complete an earlier quest line that they missed. I stuck it out..we picked up 2 more people, and we wiped a 3rd time. I'll never forget this comment one guy made to our sorcerer..who was aoe pulling the 3 mobs. "Have you tried just pulling them one at a time?" Sorcerer said he just figured they would all come regardless. So we went back in and solo pulled them..and surprise..they came one at a time..and we got past that roadblock. Sure, I could have written these folks off as farken idiots, but the reality is they were just inexperienced. We went on to clear the entire dungeon and had a successful night. (though I did stay up till 2:30 am that night, but hey..was just one night's lost sleep)
Regarding the suggestion about playing the class.... you misunderstand. Sigil intends for healers to be support classes, and is balancing to build a symbiosis between you and others. Now, I agree...it sounds like they really over-nerfed healing...not sure why they would do that...but expect it to come back around if it truely is onerous. But something did need to be done with the class, like I said before, took 3 level 12's to yank down one 14 disciple (in 3 minutes) ..and that just shouldn't be...... As to clerics..I agree..and you'll see the nerf bat swing their way very shortly.
And I agree..after level 8 you really do need to start working on grouping up with other folks... soloing past there (only) is a painful slow process..which by the way you can still do... I can solo kill mobs all night and grind it out if that's my preference..but I find completing quests to be more effiecient and fun....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Who set the early release deadline? Sony again. They wanted this game shipped before WoW's expansion, done or not. Half done games are their Modus operandi.
So go ahead and keep the denial mojo going. $OE has been involved in the decision making process. If not, Sigil has proven they are as stupid as Sony is.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Who set the early release deadline? Sony again. They wanted this game shipped before WoW's expansion, done or not. Half done games are their Modus operandi.
So go ahead and keep the denial mojo going. $OE has been involved in the decision making process. If not, Sigil has proven they are as stupid as Sony is.
Sorry, but SOE gave Sigil a full extra year to develop this game. Microsoft wasn't even willing to give them the extra extension.
Frankly, this is perhaps the only time I can recall where SOE did something that didn't screw the game up. In my opinion, if you can't release a quality product after 6 years, that's the DEVELOPERS fault for hiring such crappy programmers and being a poor leader, not their investor's fault for having faith in the product.
Sigil dropped the ball here, period. This is Vanguard, not Star Wars Galaxies.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Seriously. I played SWG too. SOE fucked it up. It's not going to change, and they're not going to take it back. You guys really need to get over it, and give other games a chance. Just because SOE is attached, doesn't instantly mean the game is going to blow. It may be your opinion that Vanguard isn't any good, but if one of your main reasons for that is because SOE is involved, then you're an idiot.
Edit:
In retrospect, this post is a bit harsh, but my point remains the same.
_________________
The above post is purely my opinion. If you disagree, that's your right. However, don't be an ass about it.
Those "facts" may have been valid BEFORE $OE invested in Vanguard's development. Who do you think has been keeping Sigil's lights on and payroll paid the last 6 months or more? That's right kids, $OE... Sony Online Entertainment. They've invested serious money in the company, even Brad's message earlier in this very post states that FLAT OUT.
Who set the early release deadline? Sony again. They wanted this game shipped before WoW's expansion, done or not. Half done games are their Modus operandi.
So go ahead and keep the denial mojo going. $OE has been involved in the decision making process. If not, Sigil has proven they are as stupid as Sony is.
Sorry, but SOE gave Sigil a full extra year to develop this game. Microsoft wasn't even willing to give them the extra extension.Frankly, this is perhaps the only time I can recall where SOE did something that didn't screw the game up. In my opinion, if you can't release a quality product after 6 years, that's the DEVELOPERS fault for hiring such crappy programmers and being a poor leader, not their investor's fault for having faith in the product.
Sigil dropped the ball here, period. This is Vanguard, not Star Wars Galaxies.
BRAVO! its about time somone said it the way it is,the only problem is its the same old rejected swg vets stalking every soe forum to bash anything soe,they wont listen or take heed to any educated comments even if they havnt even played said game in discussion they go off snippets of shite gathered between the soe haters club and will counter bash this post regardless they are right everyone else is wrong in there minds
but eq2 is better than it ever has been,mxo was never there fault in the first place but is better than it ever was under monlith,eq1 the newest expansions have been excellent when you consider the age of the game,soe dont kill every game they touch just SWG!,now ive got over it why dont yall soe haters put yer toy lightsabers back in your cots and give us all a break!
everyone stopped listening to your whining a long time ago!
Seriously. I played SWG too. SOE fucked it up. It's not going to change, and they're not going to take it back. You guys really need to get over it, and give other games a chance. Just because SOE is attached, doesn't instantly mean the game is going to blow. It may be your opinion that Vanguard isn't any good, but if one of your main reasons for that is because SOE is involved, then you're an idiot.
Edit:
In retrospect, this post is a bit harsh, but my point remains the same.
Somebody is an idiot for taking into account a company's track record before investing their time and money into their game? I think you'd be an idiot not to.
I am more than willing to give other games a chance--just not games from SOE. (And before the vanboys start in, I know that Sigil developed the game but as soon as they sold their souls to SOE that became a moot point.)
Seriously. I played SWG too. SOE fucked it up. It's not going to change, and they're not going to take it back. You guys really need to get over it, and give other games a chance. Just because SOE is attached, doesn't instantly mean the game is going to blow. It may be your opinion that Vanguard isn't any good, but if one of your main reasons for that is because SOE is involved, then you're an idiot.
Edit:
In retrospect, this post is a bit harsh, but my point remains the same.
Somebody is an idiot for taking into account a company's track record before investing their time and money into their game? I think you'd be an idiot not to.
I am more than willing to give other games a chance--just not games from SOE. (And before the vanboys start in, I know that Sigil developed the game but as soon as they sold their souls to SOE that became a moot point.)
i rest my case..no more evidence M`laud!
Seriously. I played SWG too. SOE fucked it up. It's not going to change, and they're not going to take it back. You guys really need to get over it, and give other games a chance. Just because SOE is attached, doesn't instantly mean the game is going to blow. It may be your opinion that Vanguard isn't any good, but if one of your main reasons for that is because SOE is involved, then you're an idiot.
Edit:
In retrospect, this post is a bit harsh, but my point remains the same.
Somebody is an idiot for taking into account a company's track record before investing their time and money into their game? I think you'd be an idiot not to.
I am more than willing to give other games a chance--just not games from SOE. (And before the vanboys start in, I know that Sigil developed the game but as soon as they sold their souls to SOE that became a moot point.)
i rest my case..no more evidence M`laud!
Wasn't much of a case then.
See you in 6 months when you get your head together and come back. A wise man once said "it's harder to blaze the trail than it is to follow in another's footsteps" You go ahead and wimp out on a great game, we'll stick with it and reap the rewards.
Let me start out this post by stating I am not a SOE hater by any means.
Now with that said, what some of you people fail to realize is that Sony as of right now hold the purse strings. And in the business world (which this is by the way) they do in fact make decisions regarding this game. Of course they don't give a shit if the Warrior class got nerfed or if the effects for a fireball spell look amazing or what the NPC's names are or the day to day patches, etc... etc...
What they do "suggest" to Brad and the devs. is when to release the game. When to release an expansion. Make the game harder over all to increase monthly subs. (gotta play longer to level up).
SOE has made an investment with Sigil and in order to see a return on that investment they will push Sigil hard in order for them to see their vested interests get accomplished.
I don't know how old many of you are, but that is the way it works in the business world. He who holds the "Benjamin's " holds the control.
They also blame server problems on Sigil... yet Sony runs the servers.
Vanbois.. look at it without the rose colored glasses. You want to believe so much you refuse to see the pattern, you refuse to see the signs.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Sorry to burst your bubble but Sigil is pulling the strings of this one. SOE provides servers, billing, marketing, tech support and distribution. Hence why their logo is all over it. Just like movies that are released by Pixar are distributed by Disney so they have the Disney logo all over them even though Disney was just the distributor, etc... Brad himself has said so about SOE. If you don't believe Brad then who are you gonna believe? Probably nobody.
Brad said HE didn't want official forums because it builds communities. SOE didn't take down the forums. All other SOE games have forums, Vanguard is the only one that doesn't.
Well constructive criticism I can take, and I will honestly admit that those particular details were unknown to me. My only purpose in starting this thread was to state that the game as of right now is essentially paying a monthly subscription to beta test a game that obviously wasn't ready for release. Also that the game as of right now is borked beyond belief, something that people who are still teetering on whether or not to purchase the game right now to at least wait 6 months while hopefully all the game-breaking problems are ironed out. As they should take priority over completely screwing up character models and class skills. I appreciate the constructive criticism, as I meant for this originally to be an informative post, not a whining or bitchfest. Whereas everyone else just appears to see it as flame bait.Well if you had read about the game a little bit before buying it you would have run into a quote by Brad (CEO of Sigil) saying that they ran out of money and it was still in beta stages but it was release or die.
"Originally Posted by Aradune Mithara
Err.. replies like that always bother me. No one should be, or feel, obligated to all kinds of reading and research on a game before buying it. Not having done so makes their opinion no less valid than someone who has.
Someone goes into a store, sees the box for Vanguard, thinks it looks really cool - even having heard nothing about it prior to that - and decides to buy it. They take the game home, having every reasonable expectation that it will perform well enough on their system (having checked the system specs and finding their system falls well within the recommended setup). They get home, start playing the game and find some variety of issues - be it performance, difficulty, etc...
So they post their thoughts on a forum, like this, and someone tells them.. "Well, if you'd done your research..."
It's just a bit ignorant and arrogant, to me, to expect people to do all kinds of research before buying a game - even more so to dismiss their views because they didn't.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
(Between I catched his drift but still I think it is hilarious funny in some way.)
Build communities? lol. More like, stall for time, hope for a miracle, implement damage control.
It's a quick-fix move to avoid having to answer hundres of important questions about the game bugs and nerfs---Sigil can ignore angry players because they can't post on Sigil's forum---it doesn't have one! This also makes the official Vanguard website 100% pure marketing spam. Without a centralized, official forum the opinions expressed by angry players cannot influence potential players who are thinking about buying the game and have come looking for forums so they can read up on what the game is like. It's true that potential (and current) players could find the "emerging" community forums and read bad things there but at least Sigil's website will be shiney clean, and lots of new people will visit that site long before they figure out there are "communities" that host forums.
World of Warcraft pulled a similar fast one. They deleted every single post since the first week of the retail game in their official forum. This was accomplished under the guise of providing a new and improved forum. With tears in their eyes, Blizzard informed players that the old forum posts just could not be incorporated into the new forum, and the fan boys and girls applauded and forgave them for not knowing how to save all of that data. In one fell swoop Blizzard disappeared thousands of player threads that detailed how bad WoW was from the start, and how badly Blizzard had responded to problems.
I hope Vanguard turns around with a series of good patches, but I lost my faith into miracle patches long time ago. Time to drown my dissappointment with beer.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I think its funny that all a game company has to do is get SOE to distribute their game and no matter how much this said game company screws up a game.. it gets blamed on SOE
its a win-win situation for sigil lol
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
I do think that alot of the changes to the gameplay that were implemented from the summer of '06 to present were mandated by SOE. They looked VG over and said "We'll pick up your game but you need to change X, Y and Z."
So alot of Brad's "innovative" gameplay features were cut and things like flying mounts and a quest driven playstyle were put in. Judging by his posts from around that time this was not to his liking. But because his ideas weren't working it was decided that Vanguard needed to conform to the current market to be viable.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
One thing that you have to keep in mind, is that at one time in the game developement industry independants marketed a game on a floppy disc, in a ziplock bag, with photocopied single page instructionsl, and a black and white photocopy of a picture on the zip lock bag for cover art.
Those days have changed, the players now in the industry are large dollar corporations. Sigil is trying to make a go of it as an independant, yet, conservatively, they have spent at least $12 million in wages, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, equipment, and supplies, just to name a few costs. The game was released now because they ran out of money. This was the last shot to salvage the game, by bringing in some revenue to fund developement. Salaries for one month are conservatively estimated at $375,000 based on 100 people at an average of $45,000/yr. Retail box sales have to cover marketing, packaging, CD manufacture, wholesaler (SOE) and retail markup. That doesn't leave Sigil much of the $50 retail cost to cover the $375,000 in salaries for February. And February is the free trial month. And based on the rate of patches, Sigil employees are working overtime, and SOE hardware fees have to be increasing to cover SOEs added costs. I'm also not counting the cost of borrowing SOE employees/developers to get the game in shape.
In order for Sigil to succeed they must deliver an improved, playable, balanced product by the end of the February 30 day trial period for Vanguard to remain a viable game. If players are disenchanted during February, they will, and are, cancelling their subscriptions to wait for Sigil to get the game together in 6 months. But, at a minimum wage cost of $375,000/month, with minimal revenue, Sigil will not have 6 months of financial resources to do this. And, with the projected release of GOH, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, and AoC, just to name a few, players may not wait 6 months on Vanguard. The window of opportunity is closing on Sigil, they are in a race for survival. They have about 20 more days to make it, or break it. These next 20 days will show what they are about.
Game developement by an independant developer in todays world is a real crap shoot. I wouldn't want to be in Brad's shoes about now, he's probably a little stressed. If not, he should be.
JonnyG
"Brutal" - Corel Dangel
They also blame server problems on Sigil... yet Sony runs the servers.
Vanbois.. look at it without the rose colored glasses. You want to believe so much you refuse to see the pattern, you refuse to see the signs.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. how do you feel about STO being (might) published by SOE ?
eqnext.wikia.com