Just want to add my 2 cents. Like others have said, MMOs evolve and grow but they should be finished at launch. Brad's quote makes me sick. Why didn't he just launch with the basic code? Surely it's not finished then either. Heck, then the paying customers could debug from the start. I have no respect for Brad anymore.
Funny thing is, I remember everyone saying that about WoW too, cept the Brad part.
Really 'everyone'?
If you're right, and people decide to view Vanguard's launch just as good and fun as WoW's launch, this game is going to skyrocket into millions of subscribers in no time with glorious reviews mentioning close to nill about its minimal amount of bugs and performance issues.
But in reality, reviewers are taking note of it's particular bad and bug-ridden launch, naturally consumers do too. Certainly some like you will paint no gray area between the black and white of what's buggy, and what's REALLY buggy, but I assume most of 'everyone' does paint that gray area and draw distinctions of what's tolerable and what's not.
If you need further emphasis, a game with a thousand bugs at launch needn't be treated the same as a game with one bug at launch. If you can admit that Vanguard is at LEAST buggier than WoW, all of your accusations towards WoW should end right there. I don't care if Vanguard had ONE more bug than WoW, it has then had a worse launch than WoW and no comparisons need to be made between the two.
Of course, severity of bugs is an issue, but again another reason not to nitpick over issues because Vanguard is at the bottom of the totem pole in what's acceptable and what's not. Item disappearances, level losses, deaths do to crashing; yeah those are right up there with not being able to Mage Blink over a rock and Arcane Missiles working correctly only 90% of the time.
Originally posted by sepher Originally posted by DMEnoc
Originally posted by SpectralHunt Just want to add my 2 cents. Like others have said, MMOs evolve and grow but they should be finished at launch. Brad's quote makes me sick. Why didn't he just launch with the basic code? Surely it's not finished then either. Heck, then the paying customers could debug from the start. I have no respect for Brad anymore.
Funny thing is, I remember everyone saying that about WoW too, cept the Brad part. Really 'everyone'?
If you're right, and people decide to view Vanguard's launch just as good and fun as WoW's launch, this game is going to skyrocket into millions of subscribers in no time with glorious reviews mentioning close to nill about its minimal amount of bugs and performance issues.
But in reality, reviewers are taking note of it's particular bad and bug-ridden launch, naturally consumers do too. Certainly some like you will paint no gray area between the black and white of what's buggy, and what's REALLY buggy, but I assume most of 'everyone' does paint that gray area and draw distinctions of what's tolerable and what's not.
If you need further emphasis, a game with a thousand bugs at launch needn't be treated the same as a game with one bug at launch. If you can admit that Vanguard is at LEAST buggier than WoW, all of your accusations towards WoW should end right there. I don't care if Vanguard had ONE more bug than WoW, it has then had a worse launch than WoW and no comparisons need to be made between the two.
Of course, severity of bugs is an issue, but again another reason not to nitpick over issues because Vanguard is at the bottom of the totem pole in what's acceptable and what's not. Item disappearances, level losses, deaths do to crashing; yeah those are right up there with not being able to Mage Blink over a rock and Arcane Missiles working correctly only 90% of the time.
You see I never said that Vanguard had acceptable bugs. I won't however let people forget the bug ridden launch of WoW since now it is being compared to Vanguard. If Vanguard's gameplay truly sucked, I wouldn't be playing it. My friends wouldn't be logging in everyday even though they have horrible performance issues and can't do anything but craft or diplomacy. I would have been one of the first people to stop and say f**** this. Guess what? The actual game is fun. The bugs suck but the game is fun. You might not like it but so what?
I love to see how people immediately forget about all the bugs and complaints from other launches as soon as a new game is out. I also love how people ignore the fact that the dev's are actually working at fixing these bugs on a daily basis or the fact that Brad has said many times that he wishes he had more time to test it before release but he was forced to. People like you are what kill games. They immediately bash the game because they have no patience to work through the bugs.
I know several Beta testers who initially bailed on the game but are now playing and loving it. Maybe you should actually look at the game itself and not the bugs because every patch fixes some of them.
i think most of us disagree with brad that this was good enough to release . even though mmorpgs are by nature works in progress i think even vanguards staunchest defenders reaslise this was released way to early in its devlopment . brad was nt very wise to make such a quote . untill now i ve had some sympathy with the devlopers at sigil beging forced by soe to released the game before they would chose to because of budgetry restrictions . well now brads said thay let him take the fall . because everyones going to be looking for a scapegoat for this farce .
Like others have said, MMOs evolve and grow but they should be finished at launch. Brad's quote makes me sick. Why didn't he just launch with the basic code? Surely it's not finished then either. Heck, then the paying customers could debug from the start. I have no respect for Brad anymore.
Funny thing is, I remember everyone saying that about WoW too, cept the Brad part.
Really 'everyone'?
If you're right, and people decide to view Vanguard's launch just as good and fun as WoW's launch, this game is going to skyrocket into millions of subscribers in no time with glorious reviews mentioning close to nill about its minimal amount of bugs and performance issues.
But in reality, reviewers are taking note of it's particular bad and bug-ridden launch, naturally consumers do too. Certainly some like you will paint no gray area between the black and white of what's buggy, and what's REALLY buggy, but I assume most of 'everyone' does paint that gray area and draw distinctions of what's tolerable and what's not.
If you need further emphasis, a game with a thousand bugs at launch needn't be treated the same as a game with one bug at launch. If you can admit that Vanguard is at LEAST buggier than WoW, all of your accusations towards WoW should end right there. I don't care if Vanguard had ONE more bug than WoW, it has then had a worse launch than WoW and no comparisons need to be made between the two.
Of course, severity of bugs is an issue, but again another reason not to nitpick over issues because Vanguard is at the bottom of the totem pole in what's acceptable and what's not. Item disappearances, level losses, deaths do to crashing; yeah those are right up there with not being able to Mage Blink over a rock and Arcane Missiles working correctly only 90% of the time.
You see I never said that Vanguard had acceptable bugs. I won't however let people forget the bug ridden launch of WoW since now it is being compared to Vanguard. If Vanguard's gameplay truly sucked, I wouldn't be playing it. My friends wouldn't be logging in everyday even though they have horrible performance issues and can't do anything but craft or diplomacy. I would have been one of the first people to stop and say f**** this. Guess what? The actual game is fun. The bugs suck but the game is fun. You might not like it but so what?
I love to see how people immediately forget about all the bugs and complaints from other launches as soon as a new game is out. I also love how people ignore the fact that the dev's are actually working at fixing these bugs on a daily basis or the fact that Brad has said many times that he wishes he had more time to test it before release but he was forced to. People like you are what kill games. They immediately bash the game because they have no patience to work through the bugs.
I know several Beta testers who initially bailed on the game but are now playing and loving it. Maybe you should actually look at the game itself and not the bugs because every patch fixes some of them.
Is Vanguard any less buggy or was any more ready for release in the presence of Brad and company 'wishing' they had more time? Having 'intentions' of fixing bugs? Intangible promises might tide you over, but the game is effected no more than if they'd never have expressed anything at all.
Also, you've said your friends are playing and having fun, except they're having terrible performance issues and can't do anything but crafting and diplomacy.
Well then, I assume you, like your friends have an incredible amount of patience and understanding. That's a compliment to you, and anyone can be envious of your ability to have fun given your circumstances. Am I being understanding enough?
Now you should try to be understanding as well, it's unfair and not realistic to expect everyone to be the same as you. Like I said, everyone has their limits of what they can deal with, all I'm saying is no matter how much emphasis you try to put on World of Warcraft being buggy at launch and such, it can't be used to justify the way Vanguard is.
Let's generalize 'everyone', let's generalize all the bugs too. Unless you're saying WoW had more bugs than Vanguard at launch, then I repeat; as long as Vanguard has at least ONE more bug than WoW did at launch, then it's reason to believe that Vanguard was a lesser quality product and WoW needn't be drawn in for comparison since it was a superior product.
But again, the amount and severity of Vanguard's bugs is worse...you won't admit that though, will you? No, it's better to generalize the issue as 'all MMOs release buggy' and draw no distinction between them, because of course, one becomes worse, and another becomes better. Well buddy, that's how things work; even first graders don't all get the same grade just become everyone got a problem wrong, some are going to still get As while others will reap Cs and Fs.
I don't demean them for not being able to tolerate the bugs. However I can not STAND people bashing the actual game because of this. Vanguard was not ready for release. Everyone knows this including Sigil. They are doing the best they can to fix it quickly though.
As far as game's being buggy at launch = all the same, once again your right they aren't. However how can you compare a game like WoW w/ VG? All of WoW could easily fit into one continent of VG. That is huge. If you want to compare bugs you have to be fair as well and compare it to another game of the same scope which unfortunately there isn't one. WoW couldn't have lost corpses because it used a no penalty system where it didn't matter if you died, so if you died due to a crash, you didn't care because the worse you'd have to do is run for 2 minutes.
Let's be realistic. If VG was half the size it was, then it would have been finished at release w/ very few bugs. The bugs that I have personally encountered are actually very insignificant, I have never lost a corpse or whatnot. I don't have performance issues and I have only crashed to desktop if I alt tab too many times. Other people have had worse bugs.
Please just try to keep in mind as you bash the game that SIGIL has said it was not as finished as they would have liked.
I don't demean them for not being able to tolerate the bugs. However I can not STAND people bashing the actual game because of this. Vanguard was not ready for release. Everyone knows this including Sigil. They are doing the best they can to fix it quickly though. As far as game's being buggy at launch = all the same, once again your right they aren't. However how can you compare a game like WoW w/ VG? All of WoW could easily fit into one continent of VG. That is huge. If you want to compare bugs you have to be fair as well and compare it to another game of the same scope which unfortunately there isn't one. WoW couldn't have lost corpses because it used a no penalty system where it didn't matter if you died, so if you died due to a crash, you didn't care because the worse you'd have to do is run for 2 minutes. Let's be realistic. If VG was half the size it was, then it would have been finished at release w/ very few bugs. The bugs that I have personally encountered are actually very insignificant, I have never lost a corpse or whatnot. I don't have performance issues and I have only crashed to desktop if I alt tab too many times. Other people have had worse bugs. Please just try to keep in mind as you bash the game that SIGIL has said it was not as finished as they would have liked.
I do respect your opinion but I want to add: I really don't think VG has that much more game space than WoW. From my experiences of exploring and seeing my progress on the map, VG isn't all that bigger than WoW. Yes it has underground and floating dungeons but WoW has instances. That's my perception.
If Brad decided to make a game of this scope, as you put it, then he's responsible to come through with his decision. The "what ifs" don't apply here. Sigil is making a retail game. If they thought they couldn't deliver, then they shouldn't have made such grand remarks.
I'm not trying to attack WoW, but some of the posts here are outright rubbish and I feel obliged to respond.
The WoW forum archives have been removed, I used to have links to some bug threads just to prove to others how buggy it was. Talk about remembering the good and forgetting the bad.
In the first 2 weeks, you would get crashes to desktop. It wasnt my client, it was a known and fixed bug.
For six months plus, you'd get bugs like:
When looting you'd get stuck and had to relog. This is not minor, if you are harvesting, expect to do this at least once per hour.
When on a zeppelin, falling off into the water, sometimes dieing.
When dieing, releasing and ending up a long long way from your corpse.
When trying to respawn, not being able to, no it wasnt lag, you had to relog.
Not getting out of combat after a fight.
There are plenty more, but like I said, forgetting the bad.
I have crashed to desktop twice playing Vanguard, yes I play a lot, and was in Beta. I have had to relog half a dozen times due to various bugs. Lag in cities a problem, and I hate the chunking bug, but lets keep things in perspective.
I don't demean them for not being able to tolerate the bugs. However I can not STAND people bashing the actual game because of this. Vanguard was not ready for release. Everyone knows this including Sigil. They are doing the best they can to fix it quickly though. As far as game's being buggy at launch = all the same, once again your right they aren't. However how can you compare a game like WoW w/ VG? All of WoW could easily fit into one continent of VG. That is huge. If you want to compare bugs you have to be fair as well and compare it to another game of the same scope which unfortunately there isn't one. WoW couldn't have lost corpses because it used a no penalty system where it didn't matter if you died, so if you died due to a crash, you didn't care because the worse you'd have to do is run for 2 minutes. Let's be realistic. If VG was half the size it was, then it would have been finished at release w/ very few bugs. The bugs that I have personally encountered are actually very insignificant, I have never lost a corpse or whatnot. I don't have performance issues and I have only crashed to desktop if I alt tab too many times. Other people have had worse bugs. Please just try to keep in mind as you bash the game that SIGIL has said it was not as finished as they would have liked.
What you perceive as shortcomings in WoW, others might perceive as clever and fun design. So it's not as simple as there's no corpses to be lost therefore Vanguard still one-ups WoW somehow just because WoW removed the tedium of the whole corpse run system by giving you an ethereal run.
Also, if you halved the landmass of Telon, halved the number of races and classes, halved all the assets period; how does that cure the systemic issues? You'd still have half of the classes losing levels randomly, the same amount of performance issues from the one-chunk which assets you have loaded despite a hundred or more others being deleted. Your character experiences less than 1% of the content in the game everytime you log in, but the problems permeate even that.
Maybe you're implying if the developers didn't have to build so much, they could've focused on other things. Probably, but I'm a consumer and they're a business; you may decide to be understanding of their bad management decisions in balancing getting everything done, but the majority will not.
At the essence of all this, the game is supposed to be at a level where we should be able to see one of the marketing ads they pour millions into, buy the box, install, play, and have a wonderful time.
But what we have is you attempting to bury the hatchet with issues that aren't yet bygones, based on "what Sigil said". Unless what Sigil said is printed on the front of the box; "This game isn't finished, but that's the wonderful thing about MMOs. ", it's inconsequential. What do you expect them to say? "This game is screwed, bail before you're billed!" Of course not, thus the need to be skeptical and find more worth in the tangibles instead of intangibles.
I understand it takes much more time to fix a bug than saying you're going to fix a bug, but nothing matters except the former. So as long as any mentioned issue exists, it isn't right to get mad at anyone for bringing it up just because Sigil posted on some obscure message board about it.
My apologies for having a breaking point that's reached much sooner than yours, but when I'm fed up, much like other people, we simply can't be tided over by Sigil sending out condolences and attempting to convince us that bugs are no big deal. They ARE a big deal or we wouldn't be complaining, we DO keep in mind that Sigil has said a whole lot of things, but we don't care because words mean nothing, only action does.
I should add that I actually play Vanguard every day, and do manage to have fun. The game is malleable enough so that you can most of the time avoid experiencing the same bug twice, and continue on. I like grouping with my friends, I enjoy attempting to make an item and it come out just as I expected.
I can have fun in Vanguard unlike a lot of other people that complain about the game. But I can also agree wholeheartedly with them about their complaints, simply because they're true. I envy people that can enjoy Vanguard more than me, I'm sure some people might envy me for having a decent amount of fun.
Playing or not playing, having fun or not having fun has about jack to do with it, this game is one of the buggiest games ever released and Sigil is quite amateurish in both their attempts at reconciling words and execution of fixing their problems. You needn't be a Vanguard hater to admit the aforementioned, you can still have fun and it still be true...I mean no one is calling it a Dark and Light; just saying it's incredible worse than WoW was. But still a good game; not to be confused with 'good enough' for release.
I'm not trying to attack WoW, but some of the posts here are outright rubbish and I feel obliged to respond. The WoW forum archives have been removed, I used to have links to some bug threads just to prove to others how buggy it was. Talk about remembering the good and forgetting the bad. In the first 2 weeks, you would get crashes to desktop. It wasnt my client, it was a known and fixed bug. For six months plus, you'd get bugs like: When looting you'd get stuck and had to relog. This is not minor, if you are harvesting, expect to do this at least once per hour. When on a zeppelin, falling off into the water, sometimes dieing. When dieing, releasing and ending up a long long way from your corpse. When trying to respawn, not being able to, no it wasnt lag, you had to relog. Not getting out of combat after a fight. There are plenty more, but like I said, forgetting the bad. I have crashed to desktop twice playing Vanguard, yes I play a lot, and was in Beta. I have had to relog half a dozen times due to various bugs. Lag in cities a problem, and I hate the chunking bug, but lets keep things in perspective.
I forgot about almost all of those bugs until just now. Guess that proces the whole "forgetting the bad" theory.
I don't demean them for not being able to tolerate the bugs. However I can not STAND people bashing the actual game because of this. Vanguard was not ready for release. Everyone knows this including Sigil. They are doing the best they can to fix it quickly though. As far as game's being buggy at launch = all the same, once again your right they aren't. However how can you compare a game like WoW w/ VG? All of WoW could easily fit into one continent of VG. That is huge. If you want to compare bugs you have to be fair as well and compare it to another game of the same scope which unfortunately there isn't one. WoW couldn't have lost corpses because it used a no penalty system where it didn't matter if you died, so if you died due to a crash, you didn't care because the worse you'd have to do is run for 2 minutes. Let's be realistic. If VG was half the size it was, then it would have been finished at release w/ very few bugs. The bugs that I have personally encountered are actually very insignificant, I have never lost a corpse or whatnot. I don't have performance issues and I have only crashed to desktop if I alt tab too many times. Other people have had worse bugs. Please just try to keep in mind as you bash the game that SIGIL has said it was not as finished as they would have liked.
I do respect your opinion but I want to add: I really don't think VG has that much more game space than WoW. From my experiences of exploring and seeing my progress on the map, VG isn't all that bigger than WoW. Yes it has underground and floating dungeons but WoW has instances. That's my perception.
If Brad decided to make a game of this scope, as you put it, then he's responsible to come through with his decision. The "what ifs" don't apply here. Sigil is making a retail game. If they thought they couldn't deliver, then they shouldn't have made such grand remarks. I agree, I didn't want to say because I haven't played WoW in a year and a half and can't remember it too well, but after riding from Halgarad to Three Rivers Crossing across Thestra on my Lesser Giant Warrior, and scouring Qalia with my Druid with cloudwak during that level 30 event in beta; Vanguard is truly huge but you can't fit entire other MMOs contents in one land mass to say the least.
Vanguard is incredibly huge though, in ways that other MMOs can't compete. WoW's mountains are sand dunes in comparison, and it's caverns gopher holes. But it's more of a scale thing than it is sheer point A to point B distances. Vanguard executes a huger world better.
I'm not trying to attack WoW, but some of the posts here are outright rubbish and I feel obliged to respond. The WoW forum archives have been removed, I used to have links to some bug threads just to prove to others how buggy it was. Talk about remembering the good and forgetting the bad. In the first 2 weeks, you would get crashes to desktop. It wasnt my client, it was a known and fixed bug. For six months plus, you'd get bugs like: When looting you'd get stuck and had to relog. This is not minor, if you are harvesting, expect to do this at least once per hour. When on a zeppelin, falling off into the water, sometimes dieing. When dieing, releasing and ending up a long long way from your corpse. When trying to respawn, not being able to, no it wasnt lag, you had to relog. Not getting out of combat after a fight. There are plenty more, but like I said, forgetting the bad. I have crashed to desktop twice playing Vanguard, yes I play a lot, and was in Beta. I have had to relog half a dozen times due to various bugs. Lag in cities a problem, and I hate the chunking bug, but lets keep things in perspective.
Didn't play horde, so didn't ride any zeppelins.
I do remember the whole loot-lag thing though. Thing is, I was having an incredible amount of fun as a new WoW player so it didn't matter. I imagine anyone who's having the same incredible amount of fun with Vanguard is able to deal with other bugs the same. in the absence of reason to play through it though...you don't get the same multi-million subscriber results despite the state of the launch.
Anyway, I must've been lucky, because the loot-bug went away for me after less than two weeks, and I suffered no other issues after that except raid lockouts my guild had to deal with; people staying logged in forever to try and preserve the raid group and progress. That one sucked, but again...fun enough to play through.
I'm not trying to attack WoW, but some of the posts here are outright rubbish and I feel obliged to respond. The WoW forum archives have been removed, I used to have links to some bug threads just to prove to others how buggy it was. Talk about remembering the good and forgetting the bad. In the first 2 weeks, you would get crashes to desktop. It wasnt my client, it was a known and fixed bug. For six months plus, you'd get bugs like: When looting you'd get stuck and had to relog. This is not minor, if you are harvesting, expect to do this at least once per hour. When on a zeppelin, falling off into the water, sometimes dieing. When dieing, releasing and ending up a long long way from your corpse. When trying to respawn, not being able to, no it wasnt lag, you had to relog. Not getting out of combat after a fight. There are plenty more, but like I said, forgetting the bad. I have crashed to desktop twice playing Vanguard, yes I play a lot, and was in Beta. I have had to relog half a dozen times due to various bugs. Lag in cities a problem, and I hate the chunking bug, but lets keep things in perspective.
Heres the difference:
in wow you die to a bug and nothing happens. Go back about your business.
in vanguard you die to a bug and you go backward.
if your going to have a game where you can go backward, you have to make sure that there are an aweful lots less bugs around, because players wont take repeated deaths to bugs if is wasting large quantities of their time to recover from them.
moral of the story: dont make hardcore rules without hardcore quality backing it up.
Originally posted by sepher What you perceive as shortcomings in WoW, others might perceive as clever and fun design. So it's not as simple as there's no corpses to be lost therefore Vanguard still one-ups WoW somehow just because WoW removed the tedium of the whole corpse run system by giving you an ethereal run.
Thats just it. In my opinion WoW is a poorly thought out game with very little longevity. People take breaks from that game like most people take smoke breaks.
Also, if you halved the landmass of Telon, halved the number of races and classes, halved all the assets period; how does that cure the systemic issues? You'd still have half of the classes losing levels randomly, the same amount of performance issues from the one-chunk which assets you have loaded despite a hundred or more others being deleted. Your character experiences less than 1% of the content in the game everytime you log in, but the problems permeate even that.
Maybe you're implying if the developers didn't have to build so much, they could've focused on other things. Probably, but I'm a consumer and they're a business; you may decide to be understanding of their bad management decisions in balancing getting everything done, but the majority will not.
The thing is you basically answered your own statement. The game would have been perfect if it was halved. As a consumer I understand the frustration. However I also understand from their PoV. In the MMO world, you have to have a give and take relationship with the Dev's. This is every MMO not just VG. I wish that I could just agree that the customer is always right in this regard but in MMO games thats not the case.
But what we have is you attempting to bury the hatchet with issues that aren't yet bygones, based on "what Sigil said". Unless what Sigil said is printed on the front of the box; "This game isn't finished, but that's the wonderful thing about MMOs. ", it's inconsequential. What do you expect them to say? "This game is screwed, bail before you're billed!" Of course not, thus the need to be skeptical and find more worth in the tangibles instead of intangibles.
I understand it takes much more time to fix a bug than saying you're going to fix a bug, but nothing matters except the former. So as long as any mentioned issue exists, it isn't right to get mad at anyone for bringing it up just because Sigil posted on some obscure message board about it.
I am not attempting to bury the hatchet. I am trying to stop unreasonable bashing. Almost every single complaint I have read here has been nothing more then someone crying because the game was too hard. It is these people that caused half of these problems in the first place. Combat systems,Crafting/Harvesting, Death Systems and Travel systems are all different from what was originally intended because of the feedback Sigil was getting from these kinds of people. I don't want another SWG.
Read half of these complaints and you will see that they are nothing but crying. No information on why they are upset, just complete whines. It is highly irritating.
My apologies for having a breaking point that's reached much sooner than yours, but when I'm fed up, much like other people, we simply can't be tided over by Sigil sending out condolences and attempting to convince us that bugs are no big deal. They ARE a big deal or we wouldn't be complaining, we DO keep in mind that Sigil has said a whole lot of things, but we don't care because words mean nothing, only action does.
Sigil has never said that the bugs are not a big issue. Thats the point. Everyone is acting like Sigil doesn't care about these bugs.
But I can also agree wholeheartedly with them about their complaints, simply because they're true.
So can I if they have a legit complaint. Wah, wah...its too hard or "QQ..this game sux because of the death penalty."
Playing or not playing, having fun or not having fun has about jack to do with it, this game is one of the buggiest games ever released and Sigil is quite amateurish in both their attempts at reconciling words and execution of fixing their problems. You needn't be a Vanguard hater to admit the aforementioned, you can still have fun and it still be true...I mean no one is calling it a Dark and Light; just saying it's incredible worse than WoW was. But still a good game; not to be confused with 'good enough' for release.
I totally disagree here. WoW was just as bad if not worse. People couldn't even stay connected long enough to find the bugs for the first month or so. However, it doesn't matter. VG is released. Sigil is doing their best even if people don't think so. You either have to deal w/ it or move on. Let's just hope that more people deal then move on.
Originally posted by DMEnoc Thats just it. In my opinion WoW is a poorly thought out game with very little longevity. People take breaks from that game like most people take smoke breaks.
That's your opinion, but you're exponentially outnumbered by those who think differently. So long as you understand your opinions are only opinions though; you could've said WoW is the best thing ever and it still wouldn't have anything to do with the facts of Vanguard being incredibly more buggy than it at respective launch dates.
The thing is you basically answered your own statement. The game would have been perfect if it was halved. As a consumer I understand the frustration. However I also understand from their PoV. In the MMO world, you have to have a give and take relationship with the Dev's. This is every MMO not just VG. I wish that I could just agree that the customer is always right in this regard but in MMO games thats not the case.
Well Vanguard isn't halved, it is what it is and 'what if' scenarios are just as intangible as Sigil's expressed intentions. And also, I was implying Vanguard would still be suffering the same problems, because it doesn't matter if there's a hundred or a thousand chunks if I only have one loaded at any given time anyway, and experience the same bugs and all.
As far as the customer is always right comment; we are when it comes to wanting a FINISHED product. That isn't the same as customers wanting to play designer, we simply want a functioning product as described on the box. If you print such and such minimum system requirements, then it should WORK with those minimum and recommended system requirements. No where on the box is listed "Registration to SilkyVenom for .ini tweaks".
MMOs are a 'service', even Sigil admits to that. In that way, yes you need to have a certain degree of understanding just as you do with your cable company. But you wouldn't accept your satellite company giving you a shoddy service, your friend's going down, and then you tell him "Why are you complaining? DirecTV said that they know about the problem of clouds and rain distorting service and wish it was fixed just like you. Cox is bad too, if DirecTV buried wires in the ground too it'd be ok!"
Each MMO is it's own service and provide its own content. No one would complain about 200 channels if 99% of them worked at all times, and they knew 200 channels is what they bought. But if you offer 900 channels of HDTV, and most of it is systemically bugged, boring or off the air; you're going to complain about the service.
As MMO customers we can't make design decisions towards the game, but we can expect what we've been alluded to buying.
I am not attempting to bury the hatchet. I am trying to stop unreasonable bashing. Almost every single complaint I have read here has been nothing more then someone crying because the game was too hard. It is these people that caused half of these problems in the first place. Combat systems,Crafting/Harvesting, Death Systems and Travel systems are all different from what was originally intended because of the feedback Sigil was getting from these kinds of people. I don't want another SWG. Read half of these complaints and you will see that they are nothing but crying. No information on why they are upset, just complete whines. It is highly irritating.
Notice you're saying 'I' a lot, and what you want. All while criticizing what other people want. There's no sense in arguing anything since you can easily arrive to the point that everyone wants something different, so confrontation isn't worth it.
If that's what this is about, then I'm not arguing against what you want. I'm sure you know what you want, and I don't doubt how genuine you feel about it. It's all subjective and opinionated; but facts about how buggy Vanguard is and its other shortcomings are things not different from person to person. Of course some people might experience bugs that some don't; but that doesn't mean they don't exist and aren't valid.
You take the complaints as 'crying', I can't do that. Nor do I have to. I enjoy Vanguard as I said before, but enjoying it doesn't take ignoring the fact that it's ridiculously buggy and that Brad is pretty delusional about what the masses perceive as third-gen, what "finished" means and what's "good enough" for release.
Sigil has never said that the bugs are not a big issue. Thats the point. Everyone is acting like Sigil doesn't care about these bugs.
Yeah but you're saying "Ok, Sigil knows the game is buggy, and they've said it. Alls good now, don't complain anymore!"
Maybe there's some people I've skimmed over and missed who're accusing Sigil of otherwise, but I'm simply saying that those who understand what you're saying, understand what Sigil is saying; they're still experiencing these game-breaking bugs every day and have every right to vent and be frustrated don't you think? If I die due too a bug, it doesn't frustrate me any less knowing Sigil is aware I'm not getting my money's worth out of playing.
So can I if they have a legit complaint. Wah, wah...its too hard or "QQ..this game sux because of the death penalty."
Yep, but what you're doing is insulting people. Through implying they're babies and that they're either physically and mentally not apt enough to handle the intense mouse pressing and number key pressing that you similarly do.
It's probably a lot better to take the complaints as genuine from people who've actually played the game. If you can't help reason or resolve the issues they're having then mostlikely you aren't adding anything positive or constructive to matters.
An eye for an eye, we both lose our sight!
I totally disagree here. WoW was just as bad if not worse. People couldn't even stay connected long enough to find the bugs for the first month or so. However, it doesn't matter. VG is released. Sigil is doing their best even if people don't think so. You either have to deal w/ it or move on. Let's just hope that more people deal then move on.
You needn't disagree with me, I'm just stating facts. There were no systemic level losses, item losses, required .ini tweaks in WoW. Just using words like 'bad' and 'worse' isn't enough to create facts. Also do note the reasons why people couldn't log in...because too many people were logged in already and boxes needed to be pulled from shelves why server numbers doubled, tripled, so on and so on. You go on and equate that to Vanguard's circumstances if you want and chock it up to 'bad' or 'worse', but I'll use my good senses and not.
But yes, lets hope more people decide to deal than those that don't. How about attempting to help with that by not accusing those with complaints with "QQ go play something else"? Antagonism from the player base isn't going to much help.
I like Vanguard, i used to love it at release, but I keep experiencing bugs more and more as I venture into hte wild and keep pumping in hours and hours of gameplay. in comparison, WoW did have almost flawless release, barely any bugs at all. Server instability doesnt count, its not a bug, its technical support.
Vanguard is plagued by bugs, most are cosmetic, but some are nasty. I havent realy encountered any bugs that would stop me from playing, but some were close:
- flying island bug that locks zones, so that I am unable to finish that damned Taint of the Yukianna quest... for 2 weeks now.
- falling under the world, while not critical it can be annoying if u haveto "/stuck yes" it and appear far from where u were and where u were trying to get.
- grouping bugs, annoying as hell, a group member shows to be in group but in fact isnt.
- looting bug. I lose a few juicy loot becuase of this.
- other wierd bugs like crashing to desktop, coming back and finding yourself in a totaly different locations with some of your equipment missing (luckily my equipment appeared in my inventory several logins later).
Those are just a few bugs. They dont happen all that often, but the annoyance factor does stack in. There will come a point when someone says F!@#K it, im going to play <insert your MMORPG drug here>. I realy hope Vanguard will survive this and is gonna be fixed. but I dont believe in Sigil and Brad anymore. All his words are just...words. I dont know what the devs are doing, they were showing a realy amazing development speed in beta, but after release - nothing. Several patches even nerfed some of the key components of the game (Crafting and diplomacy), crafting used to be so bad u couldnt finish easy task half the time at grade B. Diplomacy is still bad, its either too easy or too hard.
I bought Vanguard but I dont consider myself an idiot. I was in beta so i saw the level of patching and updates. I truly believed that things will be well in a few weeks. But i guess it was all a marketing ploy - show half of what you have, then in a matter of weeks bring that other half in in a form of patches and updates, thus duping people into thinking u actualy developed that other half in such a short term. This is a whole new marketing trick. For that, hats down Brad. And for that, your name will be used as a curse for many years. Welcome to the dark side, Brad.
EDIT: some spelling errors.. its late, im drunk, forgive me
Originally posted by jimmyman99 I like Vanguard, i used to love it at release, but I keep experiencing bugs more and more as I venture into hte wild and keep pumping in hours and hours of gameplay. in comparison, WoW did have almost flawless release, barely any bugs at all. Server instability doesnt count, its not a bug, its technical support.
Vanguard is plagued by bugs, most are cosmetic, but some are nasty. I havent realy encountered any bugs that would stop me from playing, but some were close: - flying island bug that locks zones, so that I am unable to finish that damned Taint of the Yukianna quest... for 2 weeks now. - falling under the world, while not critical it can be annoying if u haveto "/stuck yes" it and appear far from where u were and where u were trying to get. - grouping bugs, annoying as hell, a group member shows to be in group but in fact isnt. - looting bug. I lose a few juicy loot becuase of this. - other wierd bugs like crashing to desktop, coming back and finding yourself in a totaly different locations with some of your equipment missing (luckily my equipment appeared in my inventory several logins later).
Those are just a few bugs. They dont happen all that often, but the annoyance factor does stack in. There will come a point when someone says F!@#K it, im going to play <insert your MMORPG drug here>. I realy hope Vanguard will survive this and is gonna be fixed. but I dont believe in Sigil and Brad anymore. All his words are just...words. I dont know what the devs are doing, they were showing a realy amazing development speed in beta, but after release - nothing. Several patches even nerfed some of the key components of the game (Crafting and diplomacy), crafting used to be so bad u couldnt finish easy task half the time at grade B. Diplomacy is still bad, its either too easy or too hard.
I bought Vanguard but I dont consider myself an idiot. I was in beta so i saw the level of patching and updates. I truly believed that things will be well in a few weeks. But i guess it was all a marketing ploy - show half of what you have, then in a matter of weeks bring that other half in in a form of patches and updates, thus duping people into thinking u actualy developed that other half in such a short term. This is a whole new marketing trick. For that, hats down Brad. And for that, your name will be used as a curse for many years. Welcome to the dark side, Brad.
EDIT: some spelling errors.. its late, im drunk, forgive me
Here is a partial list of the bugs from release that I promised.
These are from the patch notes at worldofwar.net and official site.
Using the spell Blink could cause you to fall through the world
If you clicked on an item while disenchanting another, you would lose the item.
Group members of one group could remove members from another
Database Queries (for items or mobs) could crash to desktop
Players being locked out of their guilds isntances
NPC's getting stuck in evade mode
Onyxia would teleport from one point to another (causing you to lose target)
Group loot permission bug that was telling players they did not have permission to loot.
Scrolling through the auction house window causing the game to freeze
Warriors charge would path you through an entire dungeon
Several zones like Azshara, Loch Modan, Ashenvale had many places where you could become stuck
Alt tabbing could screw up your character graphics
As of patch 1.4.1 they were still working on disconnect issues (this patch was released 5/4/05)
If a caster went LD while casting, other players nearby would lock up
Crashing if a chat channel had too many members in it
If you died in lava, your release spirit box would pop up
LUA errors when linking items into chat
In large fights, using projectiles (spells or or otherwise) could cause you to crash
If you used an instant cast ability while jumping you could get stuck
German client crashes weren't fixed until 1.8.3
Still workin on disconnect issues as of patch 1.9.3
Warriors charge could desync you from server if you charged from water to land (translation: you weren't actually on the server anymore but still able to play)
Client crashes when you recieved some friendslist notifications
Crashing when you create a guild tabard while shapeshifted/in-costume
Lockup bugs from being near ships, zepplins or the tram
This list shows at least one instance of everything you just said. I took that from WoW's own patch notes.
I like Vanguard, i used to love it at release, but I keep experiencing bugs more and more as I venture into hte wild and keep pumping in hours and hours of gameplay. in comparison, WoW did have almost flawless release, barely any bugs at all. Server instability doesnt count, its not a bug, its technical support. Vanguard is plagued by bugs, most are cosmetic, but some are nasty. I havent realy encountered any bugs that would stop me from playing, but some were close:
- flying island bug that locks zones, so that I am unable to finish that damned Taint of the Yukianna quest... for 2 weeks now.
- falling under the world, while not critical it can be annoying if u haveto "/stuck yes" it and appear far from where u were and where u were trying to get.
- grouping bugs, annoying as hell, a group member shows to be in group but in fact isnt.
- looting bug. I lose a few juicy loot becuase of this.
- other wierd bugs like crashing to desktop, coming back and finding yourself in a totaly different locations with some of your equipment missing (luckily my equipment appeared in my inventory several logins later). Those are just a few bugs. They dont happen all that often, but the annoyance factor does stack in. There will come a point when someone says F!@#K it, im going to play <insert your MMORPG drug here>. I realy hope Vanguard will survive this and is gonna be fixed. but I dont believe in Sigil and Brad anymore. All his words are just...words. I dont know what the devs are doing, they were showing a realy amazing development speed in beta, but after release - nothing. Several patches even nerfed some of the key components of the game (Crafting and diplomacy), crafting used to be so bad u couldnt finish easy task half the time at grade B. Diplomacy is still bad, its either too easy or too hard. I bought Vanguard but I dont consider myself an idiot. I was in beta so i saw the level of patching and updates. I truly believed that things will be well in a few weeks. But i guess it was all a marketing ploy - show half of what you have, then in a matter of weeks bring that other half in in a form of patches and updates, thus duping people into thinking u actualy developed that other half in such a short term. This is a whole new marketing trick. For that, hats down Brad. And for that, your name will be used as a curse for many years. Welcome to the dark side, Brad. EDIT: some spelling errors.. its late, im drunk, forgive me
Here is a partial list of the bugs from release that I promised.
These are from the patch notes at worldofwar.net and official site.
Using the spell Blink could cause you to fall through the world
If you clicked on an item while disenchanting another, you would lose the item.
Group members of one group could remove members from another
Database Queries (for items or mobs) could crash to desktop
Players being locked out of their guilds isntances
NPC's getting stuck in evade mode
Onyxia would teleport from one point to another (causing you to lose target)
Group loot permission bug that was telling players they did not have permission to loot.
Scrolling through the auction house window causing the game to freeze
Warriors charge would path you through an entire dungeon
Several zones like Azshara, Loch Modan, Ashenvale had many places where you could become stuck
Alt tabbing could screw up your character graphics
As of patch 1.4.1 they were still working on disconnect issues (this patch was released 5/4/05)
If a caster went LD while casting, other players nearby would lock up
Crashing if a chat channel had too many members in it
If you died in lava, your release spirit box would pop up
LUA errors when linking items into chat
In large fights, using projectiles (spells or or otherwise) could cause you to crash
If you used an instant cast ability while jumping you could get stuck
German client crashes weren't fixed until 1.8.3
Still workin on disconnect issues as of patch 1.9.3
Warriors charge could desync you from server if you charged from water to land
(translation: you weren't actually on the server anymore but still able to play)
Client crashes when you recieved some friendslist notifications
Crashing when you create a guild tabard while shapeshifted/in-costume
Lockup bugs from being near ships, zepplins or the tram
This list shows at least one instance of everything you just said. I took that from WoW's own patch notes.
Never happened to me, I played WoW since closed beta and as far as I remember these things happened to me ..
- Felt 2 times through the world cause of blink bug while I was escorting for a quest
- Was rezzed at a wrong graveyard one time which wasnt related to the zone where I died
that was hardly gamebreaking for me. Yup that was about it ...
You know its like with medicaments look the description inside what all can happen but it doesnt happen to the majority ... like I already said its a difference if a game has bugs at beginning or is unplayable like VG.
I dont mind if there wouldnt be alot of quests at beginning or much content but I care if my machine cant handle the game very well even if its a good PC. Or that the spell graphics of my mage looking like they would be from a game of 1998, animations sucks etc etc .. you see the difference ? ^^ they just focused on the wrong things IMO and focused on to much at once ...
Leadtek 7800GTX 512mb (btw its better than 7900 etc ..)
AMD64 4000+ SanDiego (1mb cache if that matters) DUO core wont do anything anyway in this game afaik
3GB RAM
2 SATA-II harddisks in RAID0
yea the game runs ok at highest settings but it freezes always after a few seconds running for also 1-2 seconds and that the whole time, no thx ...thats hardly a "bug" I can live with. Its a difference if there is a bug where I cant complete a quest or something or I cant play the game well even if my machine is good. Seriously and the graphics arent that great anyways, I can run Gothic 3 for example at maximum without any problems and it blows vanguard graphics out of the water by miles ...
Never happened to me, I played WoW since closed beta and as far as I remember these things happened to me ..
- Felt 2 times through the world cause of blink bug while I was escorting for a quest - Was rezzed at a wrong graveyard one time which wasnt related to the zone where I died
that was hardly gamebreaking for me. Yup that was about it ...
You know its like with medicaments look the description inside what all can happen but it doesnt happen to the majority ... like I already said its a difference if a game has bugs at beginning or is unplayable like VG.
I dont mind if there wouldnt be alot of quests at beginning or much content but I care if my machine cant handle the game very well even if its a good PC. Or that the spell graphics of my mage looking like they would be from a game of 1998, animations sucks etc etc .. you see the difference ? ^^ they just focused on the wrong things IMO and focused on to much at once ...
Leadtek 7800GTX 512mb (btw its better than 7900 etc ..) AMD64 4000+ SanDiego (1mb cache if that matters) DUO core wont do anything anyway in this game afaik 3GB RAM 2 SATA-II harddisks in RAID0
yea the game runs ok at highest settings but it freezes always after a few seconds running for also 1-2 seconds and that the whole time, no thx ...thats hardly a "bug" I can live with. Its a difference if there is a bug where I cant complete a quest or something or I cant play the game well even if my machine is good. Seriously and the graphics arent that great anyways, I can run Gothic 3 for example at maximum without any problems and it blows vanguard graphics out of the water by miles ...
Just 2 words
Poor design
And I haven't had most of the bugs that your talking about w/ VG. I don't know what you are talking about it being unplayable.
I run an AMD X2 3800 @ 2ghz, 2 gigs of ram and a 6800GS and I run at an average of 35-40 FPS at modified Balanced settings (as in I turned up the graphics in some areas and down in others). I can even run at Highest quality and still play w/o locking up. My roomie has an AMD Sempron 1.4 and 1 gig of RAM and she gets 20fps plus. Not great but definately playable. My other roommate has almost the same exact setup as I do except he has only 1gig of RAM and he gets about the same FPS as I do (only he runs at balanced not modified).
As far as poor design goes, personal opinion. Thats all it is. I love the graphics and think that they are almost on par w/ EQ2. The animations (like for monks) are totally awesome. Well anyway, I strongly suggest that before you call a game unplayable that you actually look into your own configuration and see if you can get it to work. Maybe your vid card is dying or something.
Here is a partial list of the bugs from release that I promised. These are from the patch notes at worldofwar.net and official site. Using the spell Blink could cause you to fall through the world If you clicked on an item while disenchanting another, you would lose the item. Group members of one group could remove members from another Database Queries (for items or mobs) could crash to desktop Players being locked out of their guilds isntances NPC's getting stuck in evade mode Onyxia would teleport from one point to another (causing you to lose target) Group loot permission bug that was telling players they did not have permission to loot. Scrolling through the auction house window causing the game to freeze Warriors charge would path you through an entire dungeon Several zones like Azshara, Loch Modan, Ashenvale had many places where you could become stuck Alt tabbing could screw up your character graphics As of patch 1.4.1 they were still working on disconnect issues (this patch was released 5/4/05) If a caster went LD while casting, other players nearby would lock up Crashing if a chat channel had too many members in it If you died in lava, your release spirit box would pop up LUA errors when linking items into chat In large fights, using projectiles (spells or or otherwise) could cause you to crash If you used an instant cast ability while jumping you could get stuck German client crashes weren't fixed until 1.8.3 Still workin on disconnect issues as of patch 1.9.3 Warriors charge could desync you from server if you charged from water to land
(translation: you weren't actually on the server anymore but still able to play) Client crashes when you recieved some friendslist notifications Crashing when you create a guild tabard while shapeshifted/in-costume Lockup bugs from being near ships, zepplins or the tram
This list shows at least one instance of everything you just said. I took that from WoW's own patch notes.
Dont see any mage bugs, True the above are minor bugs, but they are not enough to label WoW's launch "buggy", "laggy" yes, but not buggy.
Ive only really experienced a few of those bugs, and I dont remember seeing them at retail.
WoW, wasn't finished, and still isn't. It was more polished, that is all. There are still bugs in the game that were there from day 1.
Such as?
Mage Blink?
Arcane missles?
If your going to compare Sigil to the newbs over at Blizzard at least be fair. Blizzard devs just introduced a whole new bug into the game not that long ago that turns every member of a raid into a warrior during the Nefarion fight. WoW was a laggy, bug riddled game at release and that was if you could even log into it. Vangaurd has had one of the smoothest launches to date.
Brad also flat out said that he wishes he could have a few more months of beta but reality set in and they had to release. Missed that news or something?
Every MMO has bugs. Even Everquest which has been out for over 7 years still has bugs from the early days. Get over yourself and design a better game if you don't like it.
I have a 60 mage, played it for 2 months, I never had issues with Arcane missiles or Blink. Perhaps you would care to elaborate?
"introduced" a new bug in the game, you make it sound like they put it in their intentionally, but either way, Nefarion hasnt been in WoW since day one. Unfortunately I cant argue whether or not this is a bug as I havent fought Nefarion.
Connection Lagg, isnt a bug. WoW doesnt lagg anymore, if it does, choose a low pop server. However if you are refering to graphics lagg, perhaps turning down your settings or upgrading your computer would work, however, there are millions who would agree WoW's specs are not demanding.
Just becuase somebody would hope for something, it doesnt change the nature that this game is severely lacking, that Brad is lieing and that he doesnt deserve your cash.
Every MMO has bugs. But its not just the bugs that are rife in Vanguard, its the performance, lagg, server issues, patch issues, monotonous grind, broken crafting, exploits, content promised for release not existing and last but not least the major gaps in content.
Design a better game? interesting retort.
2 months and you've never blinked backwards or stayed in the same spot? Try blinking over texture changes. My mage is 2 years old and blink has been broke since I created him. You should take a look at the mage forums to.
And when you have to complete overhaul every class in the game then you can't call it polished. WoW spent 2 years completely redoing each class.
Brad has lost all credibility imo. He will never be able to make another mmo again. Too bad he was able to trick so many people into buying his unfinished crap.
Comments
Funny thing is, I remember everyone saying that about WoW too, cept the Brad part.
Really 'everyone'?If you're right, and people decide to view Vanguard's launch just as good and fun as WoW's launch, this game is going to skyrocket into millions of subscribers in no time with glorious reviews mentioning close to nill about its minimal amount of bugs and performance issues.
But in reality, reviewers are taking note of it's particular bad and bug-ridden launch, naturally consumers do too. Certainly some like you will paint no gray area between the black and white of what's buggy, and what's REALLY buggy, but I assume most of 'everyone' does paint that gray area and draw distinctions of what's tolerable and what's not.
If you need further emphasis, a game with a thousand bugs at launch needn't be treated the same as a game with one bug at launch. If you can admit that Vanguard is at LEAST buggier than WoW, all of your accusations towards WoW should end right there. I don't care if Vanguard had ONE more bug than WoW, it has then had a worse launch than WoW and no comparisons need to be made between the two.
Of course, severity of bugs is an issue, but again another reason not to nitpick over issues because Vanguard is at the bottom of the totem pole in what's acceptable and what's not. Item disappearances, level losses, deaths do to crashing; yeah those are right up there with not being able to Mage Blink over a rock and Arcane Missiles working correctly only 90% of the time.
Really 'everyone'?
If you're right, and people decide to view Vanguard's launch just as good and fun as WoW's launch, this game is going to skyrocket into millions of subscribers in no time with glorious reviews mentioning close to nill about its minimal amount of bugs and performance issues.
But in reality, reviewers are taking note of it's particular bad and bug-ridden launch, naturally consumers do too. Certainly some like you will paint no gray area between the black and white of what's buggy, and what's REALLY buggy, but I assume most of 'everyone' does paint that gray area and draw distinctions of what's tolerable and what's not.
If you need further emphasis, a game with a thousand bugs at launch needn't be treated the same as a game with one bug at launch. If you can admit that Vanguard is at LEAST buggier than WoW, all of your accusations towards WoW should end right there. I don't care if Vanguard had ONE more bug than WoW, it has then had a worse launch than WoW and no comparisons need to be made between the two.
Of course, severity of bugs is an issue, but again another reason not to nitpick over issues because Vanguard is at the bottom of the totem pole in what's acceptable and what's not. Item disappearances, level losses, deaths do to crashing; yeah those are right up there with not being able to Mage Blink over a rock and Arcane Missiles working correctly only 90% of the time.
You see I never said that Vanguard had acceptable bugs. I won't however let people forget the bug ridden launch of WoW since now it is being compared to Vanguard. If Vanguard's gameplay truly sucked, I wouldn't be playing it. My friends wouldn't be logging in everyday even though they have horrible performance issues and can't do anything but craft or diplomacy. I would have been one of the first people to stop and say f**** this. Guess what? The actual game is fun. The bugs suck but the game is fun. You might not like it but so what?
I love to see how people immediately forget about all the bugs and complaints from other launches as soon as a new game is out. I also love how people ignore the fact that the dev's are actually working at fixing these bugs on a daily basis or the fact that Brad has said many times that he wishes he had more time to test it before release but he was forced to. People like you are what kill games. They immediately bash the game because they have no patience to work through the bugs.
I know several Beta testers who initially bailed on the game but are now playing and loving it. Maybe you should actually look at the game itself and not the bugs because every patch fixes some of them.
Funny thing is, I remember everyone saying that about WoW too, cept the Brad part.
Really 'everyone'?
If you're right, and people decide to view Vanguard's launch just as good and fun as WoW's launch, this game is going to skyrocket into millions of subscribers in no time with glorious reviews mentioning close to nill about its minimal amount of bugs and performance issues.
But in reality, reviewers are taking note of it's particular bad and bug-ridden launch, naturally consumers do too. Certainly some like you will paint no gray area between the black and white of what's buggy, and what's REALLY buggy, but I assume most of 'everyone' does paint that gray area and draw distinctions of what's tolerable and what's not.
If you need further emphasis, a game with a thousand bugs at launch needn't be treated the same as a game with one bug at launch. If you can admit that Vanguard is at LEAST buggier than WoW, all of your accusations towards WoW should end right there. I don't care if Vanguard had ONE more bug than WoW, it has then had a worse launch than WoW and no comparisons need to be made between the two.
Of course, severity of bugs is an issue, but again another reason not to nitpick over issues because Vanguard is at the bottom of the totem pole in what's acceptable and what's not. Item disappearances, level losses, deaths do to crashing; yeah those are right up there with not being able to Mage Blink over a rock and Arcane Missiles working correctly only 90% of the time.
You see I never said that Vanguard had acceptable bugs. I won't however let people forget the bug ridden launch of WoW since now it is being compared to Vanguard. If Vanguard's gameplay truly sucked, I wouldn't be playing it. My friends wouldn't be logging in everyday even though they have horrible performance issues and can't do anything but craft or diplomacy. I would have been one of the first people to stop and say f**** this. Guess what? The actual game is fun. The bugs suck but the game is fun. You might not like it but so what?
I love to see how people immediately forget about all the bugs and complaints from other launches as soon as a new game is out. I also love how people ignore the fact that the dev's are actually working at fixing these bugs on a daily basis or the fact that Brad has said many times that he wishes he had more time to test it before release but he was forced to. People like you are what kill games. They immediately bash the game because they have no patience to work through the bugs.
I know several Beta testers who initially bailed on the game but are now playing and loving it. Maybe you should actually look at the game itself and not the bugs because every patch fixes some of them.
Is Vanguard any less buggy or was any more ready for release in the presence of Brad and company 'wishing' they had more time? Having 'intentions' of fixing bugs? Intangible promises might tide you over, but the game is effected no more than if they'd never have expressed anything at all.Also, you've said your friends are playing and having fun, except they're having terrible performance issues and can't do anything but crafting and diplomacy.
Well then, I assume you, like your friends have an incredible amount of patience and understanding. That's a compliment to you, and anyone can be envious of your ability to have fun given your circumstances. Am I being understanding enough?
Now you should try to be understanding as well, it's unfair and not realistic to expect everyone to be the same as you. Like I said, everyone has their limits of what they can deal with, all I'm saying is no matter how much emphasis you try to put on World of Warcraft being buggy at launch and such, it can't be used to justify the way Vanguard is.
Let's generalize 'everyone', let's generalize all the bugs too. Unless you're saying WoW had more bugs than Vanguard at launch, then I repeat; as long as Vanguard has at least ONE more bug than WoW did at launch, then it's reason to believe that Vanguard was a lesser quality product and WoW needn't be drawn in for comparison since it was a superior product.
But again, the amount and severity of Vanguard's bugs is worse...you won't admit that though, will you? No, it's better to generalize the issue as 'all MMOs release buggy' and draw no distinction between them, because of course, one becomes worse, and another becomes better. Well buddy, that's how things work; even first graders don't all get the same grade just become everyone got a problem wrong, some are going to still get As while others will reap Cs and Fs.
I don't demean them for not being able to tolerate the bugs. However I can not STAND people bashing the actual game because of this. Vanguard was not ready for release. Everyone knows this including Sigil. They are doing the best they can to fix it quickly though.
As far as game's being buggy at launch = all the same, once again your right they aren't. However how can you compare a game like WoW w/ VG? All of WoW could easily fit into one continent of VG. That is huge. If you want to compare bugs you have to be fair as well and compare it to another game of the same scope which unfortunately there isn't one. WoW couldn't have lost corpses because it used a no penalty system where it didn't matter if you died, so if you died due to a crash, you didn't care because the worse you'd have to do is run for 2 minutes.
Let's be realistic. If VG was half the size it was, then it would have been finished at release w/ very few bugs. The bugs that I have personally encountered are actually very insignificant, I have never lost a corpse or whatnot. I don't have performance issues and I have only crashed to desktop if I alt tab too many times. Other people have had worse bugs.
Please just try to keep in mind as you bash the game that SIGIL has said it was not as finished as they would have liked.
If Brad decided to make a game of this scope, as you put it, then he's responsible to come through with his decision. The "what ifs" don't apply here. Sigil is making a retail game. If they thought they couldn't deliver, then they shouldn't have made such grand remarks.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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I'm not trying to attack WoW, but some of the posts here are outright rubbish and I feel obliged to respond.
The WoW forum archives have been removed, I used to have links to some bug threads just to prove to others how buggy it was. Talk about remembering the good and forgetting the bad.
In the first 2 weeks, you would get crashes to desktop. It wasnt my client, it was a known and fixed bug.
For six months plus, you'd get bugs like:
When looting you'd get stuck and had to relog. This is not minor, if you are harvesting, expect to do this at least once per hour.
When on a zeppelin, falling off into the water, sometimes dieing.
When dieing, releasing and ending up a long long way from your corpse.
When trying to respawn, not being able to, no it wasnt lag, you had to relog.
Not getting out of combat after a fight.
There are plenty more, but like I said, forgetting the bad.
I have crashed to desktop twice playing Vanguard, yes I play a lot, and was in Beta. I have had to relog half a dozen times due to various bugs. Lag in cities a problem, and I hate the chunking bug, but lets keep things in perspective.
Also, if you halved the landmass of Telon, halved the number of races and classes, halved all the assets period; how does that cure the systemic issues? You'd still have half of the classes losing levels randomly, the same amount of performance issues from the one-chunk which assets you have loaded despite a hundred or more others being deleted. Your character experiences less than 1% of the content in the game everytime you log in, but the problems permeate even that.
Maybe you're implying if the developers didn't have to build so much, they could've focused on other things. Probably, but I'm a consumer and they're a business; you may decide to be understanding of their bad management decisions in balancing getting everything done, but the majority will not.
At the essence of all this, the game is supposed to be at a level where we should be able to see one of the marketing ads they pour millions into, buy the box, install, play, and have a wonderful time.
But what we have is you attempting to bury the hatchet with issues that aren't yet bygones, based on "what Sigil said". Unless what Sigil said is printed on the front of the box; "This game isn't finished, but that's the wonderful thing about MMOs. ", it's inconsequential. What do you expect them to say? "This game is screwed, bail before you're billed!" Of course not, thus the need to be skeptical and find more worth in the tangibles instead of intangibles.
I understand it takes much more time to fix a bug than saying you're going to fix a bug, but nothing matters except the former. So as long as any mentioned issue exists, it isn't right to get mad at anyone for bringing it up just because Sigil posted on some obscure message board about it.
My apologies for having a breaking point that's reached much sooner than yours, but when I'm fed up, much like other people, we simply can't be tided over by Sigil sending out condolences and attempting to convince us that bugs are no big deal. They ARE a big deal or we wouldn't be complaining, we DO keep in mind that Sigil has said a whole lot of things, but we don't care because words mean nothing, only action does.
I should add that I actually play Vanguard every day, and do manage to have fun. The game is malleable enough so that you can most of the time avoid experiencing the same bug twice, and continue on. I like grouping with my friends, I enjoy attempting to make an item and it come out just as I expected.
I can have fun in Vanguard unlike a lot of other people that complain about the game. But I can also agree wholeheartedly with them about their complaints, simply because they're true. I envy people that can enjoy Vanguard more than me, I'm sure some people might envy me for having a decent amount of fun.
Playing or not playing, having fun or not having fun has about jack to do with it, this game is one of the buggiest games ever released and Sigil is quite amateurish in both their attempts at reconciling words and execution of fixing their problems. You needn't be a Vanguard hater to admit the aforementioned, you can still have fun and it still be true...I mean no one is calling it a Dark and Light; just saying it's incredible worse than WoW was. But still a good game; not to be confused with 'good enough' for release.
If Brad decided to make a game of this scope, as you put it, then he's responsible to come through with his decision. The "what ifs" don't apply here. Sigil is making a retail game. If they thought they couldn't deliver, then they shouldn't have made such grand remarks. I agree, I didn't want to say because I haven't played WoW in a year and a half and can't remember it too well, but after riding from Halgarad to Three Rivers Crossing across Thestra on my Lesser Giant Warrior, and scouring Qalia with my Druid with cloudwak during that level 30 event in beta; Vanguard is truly huge but you can't fit entire other MMOs contents in one land mass to say the least.
Vanguard is incredibly huge though, in ways that other MMOs can't compete. WoW's mountains are sand dunes in comparison, and it's caverns gopher holes. But it's more of a scale thing than it is sheer point A to point B distances. Vanguard executes a huger world better.
I do remember the whole loot-lag thing though. Thing is, I was having an incredible amount of fun as a new WoW player so it didn't matter. I imagine anyone who's having the same incredible amount of fun with Vanguard is able to deal with other bugs the same. in the absence of reason to play through it though...you don't get the same multi-million subscriber results despite the state of the launch.
Anyway, I must've been lucky, because the loot-bug went away for me after less than two weeks, and I suffered no other issues after that except raid lockouts my guild had to deal with; people staying logged in forever to try and preserve the raid group and progress. That one sucked, but again...fun enough to play through.
Heres the difference:
in wow you die to a bug and nothing happens. Go back about your business.
in vanguard you die to a bug and you go backward.
if your going to have a game where you can go backward, you have to make sure that there are an aweful lots less bugs around, because players wont take repeated deaths to bugs if is wasting large quantities of their time to recover from them.
moral of the story: dont make hardcore rules without hardcore quality backing it up.
Thats just it. In my opinion WoW is a poorly thought out game with very little longevity. People take breaks from that game like most people take smoke breaks.
The thing is you basically answered your own statement. The game would have been perfect if it was halved. As a consumer I understand the frustration. However I also understand from their PoV. In the MMO world, you have to have a give and take relationship with the Dev's. This is every MMO not just VG. I wish that I could just agree that the customer is always right in this regard but in MMO games thats not the case.
I am not attempting to bury the hatchet. I am trying to stop unreasonable bashing. Almost every single complaint I have read here has been nothing more then someone crying because the game was too hard. It is these people that caused half of these problems in the first place. Combat systems,Crafting/Harvesting, Death Systems and Travel systems are all different from what was originally intended because of the feedback Sigil was getting from these kinds of people. I don't want another SWG.
Read half of these complaints and you will see that they are nothing but crying. No information on why they are upset, just complete whines. It is highly irritating.
Sigil has never said that the bugs are not a big issue. Thats the point. Everyone is acting like Sigil doesn't care about these bugs.
So can I if they have a legit complaint. Wah, wah...its too hard or "QQ..this game sux because of the death penalty."
I totally disagree here. WoW was just as bad if not worse. People couldn't even stay connected long enough to find the bugs for the first month or so. However, it doesn't matter. VG is released. Sigil is doing their best even if people don't think so. You either have to deal w/ it or move on. Let's just hope that more people deal then move on.
Well Vanguard isn't halved, it is what it is and 'what if' scenarios are just as intangible as Sigil's expressed intentions. And also, I was implying Vanguard would still be suffering the same problems, because it doesn't matter if there's a hundred or a thousand chunks if I only have one loaded at any given time anyway, and experience the same bugs and all.
As far as the customer is always right comment; we are when it comes to wanting a FINISHED product. That isn't the same as customers wanting to play designer, we simply want a functioning product as described on the box. If you print such and such minimum system requirements, then it should WORK with those minimum and recommended system requirements. No where on the box is listed "Registration to SilkyVenom for .ini tweaks".
MMOs are a 'service', even Sigil admits to that. In that way, yes you need to have a certain degree of understanding just as you do with your cable company. But you wouldn't accept your satellite company giving you a shoddy service, your friend's going down, and then you tell him "Why are you complaining? DirecTV said that they know about the problem of clouds and rain distorting service and wish it was fixed just like you. Cox is bad too, if DirecTV buried wires in the ground too it'd be ok!"
Each MMO is it's own service and provide its own content. No one would complain about 200 channels if 99% of them worked at all times, and they knew 200 channels is what they bought. But if you offer 900 channels of HDTV, and most of it is systemically bugged, boring or off the air; you're going to complain about the service.
As MMO customers we can't make design decisions towards the game, but we can expect what we've been alluded to buying.
Notice you're saying 'I' a lot, and what you want. All while criticizing what other people want. There's no sense in arguing anything since you can easily arrive to the point that everyone wants something different, so confrontation isn't worth it.
If that's what this is about, then I'm not arguing against what you want. I'm sure you know what you want, and I don't doubt how genuine you feel about it. It's all subjective and opinionated; but facts about how buggy Vanguard is and its other shortcomings are things not different from person to person. Of course some people might experience bugs that some don't; but that doesn't mean they don't exist and aren't valid.
You take the complaints as 'crying', I can't do that. Nor do I have to. I enjoy Vanguard as I said before, but enjoying it doesn't take ignoring the fact that it's ridiculously buggy and that Brad is pretty delusional about what the masses perceive as third-gen, what "finished" means and what's "good enough" for release.
Yeah but you're saying "Ok, Sigil knows the game is buggy, and they've said it. Alls good now, don't complain anymore!"
Maybe there's some people I've skimmed over and missed who're accusing Sigil of otherwise, but I'm simply saying that those who understand what you're saying, understand what Sigil is saying; they're still experiencing these game-breaking bugs every day and have every right to vent and be frustrated don't you think? If I die due too a bug, it doesn't frustrate me any less knowing Sigil is aware I'm not getting my money's worth out of playing.
Yep, but what you're doing is insulting people. Through implying they're babies and that they're either physically and mentally not apt enough to handle the intense mouse pressing and number key pressing that you similarly do.
It's probably a lot better to take the complaints as genuine from people who've actually played the game. If you can't help reason or resolve the issues they're having then mostlikely you aren't adding anything positive or constructive to matters.
An eye for an eye, we both lose our sight!
You needn't disagree with me, I'm just stating facts. There were no systemic level losses, item losses, required .ini tweaks in WoW. Just using words like 'bad' and 'worse' isn't enough to create facts. Also do note the reasons why people couldn't log in...because too many people were logged in already and boxes needed to be pulled from shelves why server numbers doubled, tripled, so on and so on. You go on and equate that to Vanguard's circumstances if you want and chock it up to 'bad' or 'worse', but I'll use my good senses and not.
But yes, lets hope more people decide to deal than those that don't. How about attempting to help with that by not accusing those with complaints with "QQ go play something else"? Antagonism from the player base isn't going to much help.
Vanguard is plagued by bugs, most are cosmetic, but some are nasty. I havent realy encountered any bugs that would stop me from playing, but some were close:
- flying island bug that locks zones, so that I am unable to finish that damned Taint of the Yukianna quest... for 2 weeks now.
- falling under the world, while not critical it can be annoying if u haveto "/stuck yes" it and appear far from where u were and where u were trying to get.
- grouping bugs, annoying as hell, a group member shows to be in group but in fact isnt.
- looting bug. I lose a few juicy loot becuase of this.
- other wierd bugs like crashing to desktop, coming back and finding yourself in a totaly different locations with some of your equipment missing (luckily my equipment appeared in my inventory several logins later).
Those are just a few bugs. They dont happen all that often, but the annoyance factor does stack in. There will come a point when someone says F!@#K it, im going to play <insert your MMORPG drug here>. I realy hope Vanguard will survive this and is gonna be fixed. but I dont believe in Sigil and Brad anymore. All his words are just...words. I dont know what the devs are doing, they were showing a realy amazing development speed in beta, but after release - nothing. Several patches even nerfed some of the key components of the game (Crafting and diplomacy), crafting used to be so bad u couldnt finish easy task half the time at grade B. Diplomacy is still bad, its either too easy or too hard.
I bought Vanguard but I dont consider myself an idiot. I was in beta so i saw the level of patching and updates. I truly believed that things will be well in a few weeks. But i guess it was all a marketing ploy - show half of what you have, then in a matter of weeks bring that other half in in a form of patches and updates, thus duping people into thinking u actualy developed that other half in such a short term. This is a whole new marketing trick. For that, hats down Brad. And for that, your name will be used as a curse for many years. Welcome to the dark side, Brad.
EDIT: some spelling errors.. its late, im drunk, forgive me
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Here is a partial list of the bugs from release that I promised.
These are from the patch notes at worldofwar.net and official site.
Using the spell Blink could cause you to fall through the world
If you clicked on an item while disenchanting another, you would lose the item.
Group members of one group could remove members from another
Database Queries (for items or mobs) could crash to desktop
Players being locked out of their guilds isntances
NPC's getting stuck in evade mode
Onyxia would teleport from one point to another (causing you to lose target)
Group loot permission bug that was telling players they did not have permission to loot.
Scrolling through the auction house window causing the game to freeze
Warriors charge would path you through an entire dungeon
Several zones like Azshara, Loch Modan, Ashenvale had many places where you could become stuck
Alt tabbing could screw up your character graphics
As of patch 1.4.1 they were still working on disconnect issues (this patch was released 5/4/05)
If a caster went LD while casting, other players nearby would lock up
Crashing if a chat channel had too many members in it
If you died in lava, your release spirit box would pop up
LUA errors when linking items into chat
In large fights, using projectiles (spells or or otherwise) could cause you to crash
If you used an instant cast ability while jumping you could get stuck
German client crashes weren't fixed until 1.8.3
Still workin on disconnect issues as of patch 1.9.3
Warriors charge could desync you from server if you charged from water to land
(translation: you weren't actually on the server anymore but still able to play)
Client crashes when you recieved some friendslist notifications
Crashing when you create a guild tabard while shapeshifted/in-costume
Lockup bugs from being near ships, zepplins or the tram
This list shows at least one instance of everything you just said. I took that from WoW's own patch notes.
Here is a partial list of the bugs from release that I promised.
These are from the patch notes at worldofwar.net and official site.
Using the spell Blink could cause you to fall through the world
If you clicked on an item while disenchanting another, you would lose the item.
Group members of one group could remove members from another
Database Queries (for items or mobs) could crash to desktop
Players being locked out of their guilds isntances
NPC's getting stuck in evade mode
Onyxia would teleport from one point to another (causing you to lose target)
Group loot permission bug that was telling players they did not have permission to loot.
Scrolling through the auction house window causing the game to freeze
Warriors charge would path you through an entire dungeon
Several zones like Azshara, Loch Modan, Ashenvale had many places where you could become stuck
Alt tabbing could screw up your character graphics
As of patch 1.4.1 they were still working on disconnect issues (this patch was released 5/4/05)
If a caster went LD while casting, other players nearby would lock up
Crashing if a chat channel had too many members in it
If you died in lava, your release spirit box would pop up
LUA errors when linking items into chat
In large fights, using projectiles (spells or or otherwise) could cause you to crash
If you used an instant cast ability while jumping you could get stuck
German client crashes weren't fixed until 1.8.3
Still workin on disconnect issues as of patch 1.9.3
Warriors charge could desync you from server if you charged from water to land
(translation: you weren't actually on the server anymore but still able to play)
Client crashes when you recieved some friendslist notifications
Crashing when you create a guild tabard while shapeshifted/in-costume
Lockup bugs from being near ships, zepplins or the tram
This list shows at least one instance of everything you just said. I took that from WoW's own patch notes.
Never happened to me, I played WoW since closed beta and as far as I remember these things happened to me ..
- Felt 2 times through the world cause of blink bug while I was escorting for a quest
- Was rezzed at a wrong graveyard one time which wasnt related to the zone where I died
that was hardly gamebreaking for me. Yup that was about it ...
You know its like with medicaments look the description inside what all can happen but it doesnt happen to the majority ... like I already said its a difference if a game has bugs at beginning or is unplayable like VG.
I dont mind if there wouldnt be alot of quests at beginning or much content but I care if my machine cant handle the game very well even if its a good PC. Or that the spell graphics of my mage looking like they would be from a game of 1998, animations sucks etc etc .. you see the difference ? ^^ they just focused on the wrong things IMO and focused on to much at once ...
Leadtek 7800GTX 512mb (btw its better than 7900 etc ..)
AMD64 4000+ SanDiego (1mb cache if that matters) DUO core wont do anything anyway in this game afaik
3GB RAM
2 SATA-II harddisks in RAID0
yea the game runs ok at highest settings but it freezes always after a few seconds running for also 1-2 seconds and that the whole time, no thx ...thats hardly a "bug" I can live with. Its a difference if there is a bug where I cant complete a quest or something or I cant play the game well even if my machine is good. Seriously and the graphics arent that great anyways, I can run Gothic 3 for example at maximum without any problems and it blows vanguard graphics out of the water by miles ...
Just 2 words
Poor design
And I haven't had most of the bugs that your talking about w/ VG. I don't know what you are talking about it being unplayable.
I run an AMD X2 3800 @ 2ghz, 2 gigs of ram and a 6800GS and I run at an average of 35-40 FPS at modified Balanced settings (as in I turned up the graphics in some areas and down in others). I can even run at Highest quality and still play w/o locking up. My roomie has an AMD Sempron 1.4 and 1 gig of RAM and she gets 20fps plus. Not great but definately playable. My other roommate has almost the same exact setup as I do except he has only 1gig of RAM and he gets about the same FPS as I do (only he runs at balanced not modified).
As far as poor design goes, personal opinion. Thats all it is. I love the graphics and think that they are almost on par w/ EQ2. The animations (like for monks) are totally awesome. Well anyway, I strongly suggest that before you call a game unplayable that you actually look into your own configuration and see if you can get it to work. Maybe your vid card is dying or something.
Ive only really experienced a few of those bugs, and I dont remember seeing them at retail.
---
Mage Blink?
Arcane missles?
If your going to compare Sigil to the newbs over at Blizzard at least be fair. Blizzard devs just introduced a whole new bug into the game not that long ago that turns every member of a raid into a warrior during the Nefarion fight. WoW was a laggy, bug riddled game at release and that was if you could even log into it. Vangaurd has had one of the smoothest launches to date.
Brad also flat out said that he wishes he could have a few more months of beta but reality set in and they had to release. Missed that news or something?
Every MMO has bugs. Even Everquest which has been out for over 7 years still has bugs from the early days. Get over yourself and design a better game if you don't like it.
I have a 60 mage, played it for 2 months, I never had issues with Arcane missiles or Blink. Perhaps you would care to elaborate?"introduced" a new bug in the game, you make it sound like they put it in their intentionally, but either way, Nefarion hasnt been in WoW since day one. Unfortunately I cant argue whether or not this is a bug as I havent fought Nefarion.
Connection Lagg, isnt a bug. WoW doesnt lagg anymore, if it does, choose a low pop server. However if you are refering to graphics lagg, perhaps turning down your settings or upgrading your computer would work, however, there are millions who would agree WoW's specs are not demanding.
Just becuase somebody would hope for something, it doesnt change the nature that this game is severely lacking, that Brad is lieing and that he doesnt deserve your cash.
Every MMO has bugs. But its not just the bugs that are rife in Vanguard, its the performance, lagg, server issues, patch issues, monotonous grind, broken crafting, exploits, content promised for release not existing and last but not least the major gaps in content.
Design a better game? interesting retort.
2 months and you've never blinked backwards or stayed in the same spot? Try blinking over texture changes. My mage is 2 years old and blink has been broke since I created him. You should take a look at the mage forums to.
And when you have to complete overhaul every class in the game then you can't call it polished. WoW spent 2 years completely redoing each class.