has potential i think by spring 08 this game will be a popular MMO, cause you SOE will probably do what ever it take to get subscribers, even if it doesnt appeal to the hardcore VG player now...the game will change to make it more appealing.
I think you mean to say that SOE will probably do whatever it takes to get subscribers, especially if it means screwing over their current customers. After all, that's their specialty.
500k????? They should worry about keeping their current customers on board before there is even talk of increasing the player base 5-10X what it is right now.
It will never get any where near 500K. The game is too hardcore in that I mean you have to invest a large amount of time for very little gain. Whether thats XP or gold. There are a lot of things I like about this game the graphics and the vast world just to name a couple but with out more soloable quest at all levels the forced grouping could kill this game. And for all those people who say that grouping is a integral part of the game some of us do not have the time or inclination to keep looking for groups. You need the soloable quests to attrached the casual player. I can live with the bugs and graphic gliches but the forced grouping has made me think twice about continuing playing VG.
Final Fantasy 11 require forced grouping and it take ages to get to 75, but it still have probably about 500k sub
because you do not like forced grouping doesnt mean other wont, you re not alone in the world you know
Final Fantasy has the advantage of a worldwide recognized brand name, vanguard does not. If they ever stabilize the code and reduce the hardware reqs I may pick it up, but for now my guess is it will never reach 500k.
has potential i think by spring 08 this game will be a popular MMO, cause you SOE will probably do what ever it take to get subscribers, even if it doesnt appeal to the hardcore VG player now...the game will change to make it more appealing.
I think you mean to say that SOE will probably do whatever it takes to get subscribers, especially if it means screwing over their current customers. After all, that's their specialty.
I have to admit that if one thing worries me more than anything else, it is that particular scenario. Saying that, unlike the Titanic that was SWG, in whichI remained onboard long after it had slipped beneath the waves, the first sign that Vanguard is being drastically changed to alienate people who've put the time in will be my cue to proceed to the lifeboat that is the cancellation button. It will also be the last time I ever subscribe to an SOE game, regardless of whether it ships with a cheque for £500.00 in the box or not.
There is something that will hold the numbers down that has nothing to do with whether the game is casual or hardcore, or what features it has.
The fact is it is not a game whose artwork/style will be embraced by the Asian market. Go look at the graphics in games that are popular in Asia versus Vanguard and you will see what I mean. It's not a value judgment. It's just differences in taste.
Most, if not all, of the games that have broken the 1 million mark drew heavily from the Asian market. Lineage. Lineage II. WoW. Guild Wars. Etc. There are commonalities in their graphics/settings.
So you start with the proposition that this game is directed to the North American/European markets, and factor in its niche qualities, and you are talking about a game that will never have big numbers. Add to that Sigil's many screw ups and it gets worse.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
i have read a lot of comments about WoW's graphic but never that they were 'Asian' orientated. The fact remains that very few games at all have breached the 1M mark in terms of current subscribers: to be precise three Lineage, Lineage 2, WoW to which GW should be added as well.
Also worth noting that WoW has passed 1M in the US and 1M in Europe so it can be done without Asia - but it is obviously easier if you are able to target a larger market (so Asian orientated graphics might help agreed).
I think he's right it's a very niche game.... most people wont stand to play a game will sooo many faults and bugs + the graphics are very generic and none of my friends think it looks good. The mediocre reviews also wont help it and theres no attension on the game or any adverts.... I say the game will max out at 100k subs and if things don't improve it'll drop down to 50k and SOE will stop funding like Planetside.
Show me the reviews!!!!!111!!! They are all over the place. You just think they are by people who hate Vanguard.
The persecution complex of some Vanguard players is rather interesting. In another thread some guy was listing generic "hater" types one of which was "Combat is boring!". Like all complaints are by haters. I think Eve's combat is boring yet I rather respect the game.
There is something that will hold the numbers down that has nothing to do with whether the game is casual or hardcore, or what features it has. The fact is it is not a game whose artwork/style will be embraced by the Asian market. Go look at the graphics in games that are popular in Asia versus Vanguard and you will see what I mean. It's not a value judgment. It's just differences in taste. Most, if not all, of the games that have broken the 1 million mark drew heavily from the Asian market. Lineage. Lineage II. WoW. Guild Wars. Etc. There are commonalities in their graphics/settings. So you start with the proposition that this game is directed to the North American/European markets, and factor in its niche qualities, and you are talking about a game that will never have big numbers. Add to that Sigil's many screw ups and it gets worse.
Well, to be fair, NCSoft, who publishes Lineage 1 & 2 and Guild Wars (along with CoH/CoV), is a South Korean game company. They're going to have somewhat of an advantage in that regard, since they know the market, what Asian gamers will like, and can easily offer products with their tastes in mind.
As for World of Warcraft, people around here decry the "cartoony" look, but the truth is, the game looks like a Warcraft game. And if I remember correctly, both the Warcraft and Starcraft series are very popular in Asia as well. An MMO based on those games, and which is actually a sequel of sorts to all the games that came before it was bound to do well. it just happened to do a LOT better than anyone, even Blizzard, expected that it would.
Never, regardless of how good the game gets, getting 500k subs from a launch like this would require divine intervention, and then some.
200k steady players would be an impressive feat and I even doubt it will reach that.
This market just do not not work that way.
It is more likely MacOS will surpass Windows, could it happen? Yes.
Is it likely? No.
As of now I am running around naked waiting for GM to summon my tombstone that got lost somehow, as of rigth now I am not very pleased at all with this game.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simple. The answer is never. This is a niche game and will appeal to some but not a majority. The bad press this game has gotten upon it's release will also scare a lot of people away. Hopefully, it will be profitable. The more games that hit Woody's "Game Zapper" the worse off we ALL are.
Show me the bad press please. I'm dying to read it. What i have seen is fair reviews or totally biased reviews.
High system requirments for minimal gfx enjoyment is enough to push most away.
I noticed the other day my local PCWorld had about 10 copies and had redice the price to £24.99 from the initial £32.99 (which i paid for it 3 weeks back). Niche and will never reach 500k. By the time Vanguard does get good (if it does) other big name games will be released and have stolen all of Vanguard's thunder. It will get lost in the shuffle of LOTRO, AOC, and Warhammer.
That's probably the truest thing yet posted.
Vanguard likely WILL get lost amonst those games, even if two out of three of them are good (or even just one) . And LOTRO, to this point, looks like it will be good; or at least very polished.
You guys are seriously underestimating this game. Once they clean house of the bugs and get a handle on the performance issues this game is going to hit the MMO market hard. In a years time the system requirements will be trivial and you will be able to appreciate the graphics like those with high end systems now. Therefore, my prediction is 1 year.
The question is "when" they clear the bugs and "when" they improve performance, and whether they have a sufficient subscription base to support that kind of work, and "if" any such improvements will be in time not only to take back those who tried it and cancelled, but those who didn't buy it in the first place. You know about the high-hype games coming out in the near future. If people find a good one amongst them (AoC, LOTRO, Warhammer) VG just might be forgotten.
it is really hard to tell about this game, it was released far too early. They have at least 6 months of more development if not more before it is ready for the general MMO playerbase. They really hurt themselves releasing the game in such a sorry state.
After a month in Vanguard, I tried the stress test for LOTRO this weekend, what a breath of fresh air. Amazing how much better LOTRO is and it is still in beta.
I just don't think Vanguard can reach that high of a playerbase. They have way too much to do, to make the game playable and without the first time subscribers sticking around it is going to be hurting.
Their slow, buggy start does not bode well for the future.
I doubt that they'll ever see more than 150,000 subscribers, and probably less than that. This game will fall into niche mode at a rapid pace and never acheive wide popularity.
There is something that will hold the numbers down that has nothing to do with whether the game is casual or hardcore, or what features it has. The fact is it is not a game whose artwork/style will be embraced by the Asian market. Go look at the graphics in games that are popular in Asia versus Vanguard and you will see what I mean. It's not a value judgment. It's just differences in taste. Most, if not all, of the games that have broken the 1 million mark drew heavily from the Asian market. Lineage. Lineage II. WoW. Guild Wars. Etc. There are commonalities in their graphics/settings. So you start with the proposition that this game is directed to the North American/European markets, and factor in its niche qualities, and you are talking about a game that will never have big numbers. Add to that Sigil's many screw ups and it gets worse.
Asia isn't a crutch for Warcraft at least. It has 2-4 million subscribers from just North America and Europe. So it is possible to get well beyond 500k from just the western markets if the game is good enough.
Some games do well in the west, but not in the east, and vice-versa. Rarely does a game do overwhelmingly well in both like WoW though. So it's not an affliction all unto Vanguard or it's choice of art style.
There is something that will hold the numbers down that has nothing to do with whether the game is casual or hardcore, or what features it has. The fact is it is not a game whose artwork/style will be embraced by the Asian market. Go look at the graphics in games that are popular in Asia versus Vanguard and you will see what I mean. It's not a value judgment. It's just differences in taste. Most, if not all, of the games that have broken the 1 million mark drew heavily from the Asian market. Lineage. Lineage II. WoW. Guild Wars. Etc. There are commonalities in their graphics/settings. So you start with the proposition that this game is directed to the North American/European markets, and factor in its niche qualities, and you are talking about a game that will never have big numbers. Add to that Sigil's many screw ups and it gets worse.
Asia isn't a crutch for Warcraft at least. It has 2-4 million subscribers from just North America and Europe. So it is possible to get well beyond 500k from just the western markets if the game is good enough.
Some games do well in the west, but not in the east, and vice-versa. Rarely does a game do overwhelmingly well in both like WoW though. So it's not an affliction all unto Vanguard or it's choice of art style. WoW has roughly 2.5 million from Europe and NA and I think aroun 500k in korea. So yes you can break 1 million without asia. But clearly their released numbers are very very much bolstered by China.
There is something that will hold the numbers down that has nothing to do with whether the game is casual or hardcore, or what features it has. The fact is it is not a game whose artwork/style will be embraced by the Asian market. Go look at the graphics in games that are popular in Asia versus Vanguard and you will see what I mean. It's not a value judgment. It's just differences in taste. Most, if not all, of the games that have broken the 1 million mark drew heavily from the Asian market. Lineage. Lineage II. WoW. Guild Wars. Etc. There are commonalities in their graphics/settings. So you start with the proposition that this game is directed to the North American/European markets, and factor in its niche qualities, and you are talking about a game that will never have big numbers. Add to that Sigil's many screw ups and it gets worse.
Asia isn't a crutch for Warcraft at least. It has 2-4 million subscribers from just North America and Europe. So it is possible to get well beyond 500k from just the western markets if the game is good enough.
Some games do well in the west, but not in the east, and vice-versa. Rarely does a game do overwhelmingly well in both like WoW though. So it's not an affliction all unto Vanguard or it's choice of art style. WoW has roughly 2.5 million from Europe and NA and I think aroun 500k in korea. So yes you can break 1 million without asia. But clearly their released numbers are very very much bolstered by China. 2 million in North America alone. Another 1.5 million in Europe as of the last press release, certainly a ton more than that by now given Burning Crusades has gone on to break a one-day sell record of 2.4 million in just those two markets since then; a hike in an already ridiculous unwavering momentum.
...But who's counting!
It goes to show that you see exponential success or lackthereof, not just marginal differences depending on the momentum built in great launches and bad ones.
Their slow, buggy start does not bode well for the future. I doubt that they'll ever see more than 150,000 subscribers, and probably less than that. This game will fall into niche mode at a rapid pace and never acheive wide popularity.
Their slow, buggy start does not bode well for the future. I doubt that they'll ever see more than 150,000 subscribers, and probably less than that. This game will fall into niche mode at a rapid pace and never acheive wide popularity.
Just like SWG at release.
But it was the best game right?
Problem with comparing Vanguard to SWG is that SWG had the entire weight of the Star Wars intellectual property and franchise behind it and thus could draw on a larger pool of potential subscribers (i.e., people who have never played MMORPGs but loved Star Wars).
Vanguard doesn't have that advantage. From day 1, it's potential subscriber pool was already much, much smaller than say SWG or WoW or LOTRO, all of which have the possibility of attracting fans from outside the video game community, and certainly the MMORPG community. Vanguard, unfortunately, must attract its players solely from past and present MMORPG players, and to a lesser extent video game players in general.
There is something that will hold the numbers down that has nothing to do with whether the game is casual or hardcore, or what features it has. The fact is it is not a game whose artwork/style will be embraced by the Asian market. Go look at the graphics in games that are popular in Asia versus Vanguard and you will see what I mean. It's not a value judgment. It's just differences in taste. Most, if not all, of the games that have broken the 1 million mark drew heavily from the Asian market. Lineage. Lineage II. WoW. Guild Wars. Etc. There are commonalities in their graphics/settings. So you start with the proposition that this game is directed to the North American/European markets, and factor in its niche qualities, and you are talking about a game that will never have big numbers. Add to that Sigil's many screw ups and it gets worse.
Another thing to think about when speaking of the Asian market for Vanguard is its hefty system requirements. I freely admit to not having any hard data here, but it seems to me that Asian gamers seem less obsessed about owning top of the line rigs. I come to this conclusion simply by looking at the types of MMORPGs that are successful in the Asian market - i.e., low levels of character customization, pretty but static landscapes, etc. And this is if the game is even in 3D! It seems many 2D games are still very popular in Asia.
Factor in the overwhelming popularity of console gaming, and this leads me to conclude that Vanguard, with its incredibly unforgiving system requirements, would have a hard time appealing to Asian gamers by the mere fact that it's too much of a hassle even trying to get it to run!
There is something that will hold the numbers down that has nothing to do with whether the game is casual or hardcore, or what features it has. The fact is it is not a game whose artwork/style will be embraced by the Asian market. Go look at the graphics in games that are popular in Asia versus Vanguard and you will see what I mean. It's not a value judgment. It's just differences in taste. Most, if not all, of the games that have broken the 1 million mark drew heavily from the Asian market. Lineage. Lineage II. WoW. Guild Wars. Etc. There are commonalities in their graphics/settings. So you start with the proposition that this game is directed to the North American/European markets, and factor in its niche qualities, and you are talking about a game that will never have big numbers. Add to that Sigil's many screw ups and it gets worse.
Another thing to think about when speaking of the Asian market for Vanguard is its hefty system requirements. I freely admit to not having any hard data here, but it seems to me that Asian gamers seem less obsessed about owning top of the line rigs. I come to this conclusion simply by looking at the types of MMORPGs that are successful in the Asian market - i.e., low levels of character customization, pretty but static landscapes, etc. And this is if the game is even in 3D! It seems many 2D games are still very popular in Asia.
Factor in the overwhelming popularity of console gaming, and this leads me to conclude that Vanguard, with its incredibly unforgiving system requirements, would have a hard time appealing to Asian gamers by the mere fact that it's too much of a hassle even trying to get it to run!
That's a good point; not to mention the huge cybercafe culture. High-end systems, and incentive to tweak .ini settings even with high-end systems are both counter-intuitive towards that.
Their slow, buggy start does not bode well for the future. I doubt that they'll ever see more than 150,000 subscribers, and probably less than that. This game will fall into niche mode at a rapid pace and never acheive wide popularity.
Just like SWG at release.
But it was the best game right?
SWG started off pretty darn big at release then fell off to a core of hard core players after the first few months. My guild went from well over 100 members to less than 10 and merged with another guild within the first 4 months. That was about the time I gave up all hope of them ever fixing the Bio Eng profession and canceled also.
Games that release badly have a hard time it seems, EQII and Eve is the only ones I can think of that really grew. AO did ok but still struggles, Horizons and Dark and Light should just pull the plug on the servers.
Comments
500k????? They should worry about keeping their current customers on board before there is even talk of increasing the player base 5-10X what it is right now.
Regal
Final Fantasy 11 require forced grouping and it take ages to get to 75, but it still have probably about 500k sub
because you do not like forced grouping doesnt mean other wont, you re not alone in the world you know
Final Fantasy has the advantage of a worldwide recognized brand name, vanguard does not. If they ever stabilize the code and reduce the hardware reqs I may pick it up, but for now my guess is it will never reach 500k.
I have to admit that if one thing worries me more than anything else, it is that particular scenario. Saying that, unlike the Titanic that was SWG, in which I remained onboard long after it had slipped beneath the waves, the first sign that Vanguard is being drastically changed to alienate people who've put the time in will be my cue to proceed to the lifeboat that is the cancellation button. It will also be the last time I ever subscribe to an SOE game, regardless of whether it ships with a cheque for £500.00 in the box or not.
S
There is something that will hold the numbers down that has nothing to do with whether the game is casual or hardcore, or what features it has.
The fact is it is not a game whose artwork/style will be embraced by the Asian market. Go look at the graphics in games that are popular in Asia versus Vanguard and you will see what I mean. It's not a value judgment. It's just differences in taste.
Most, if not all, of the games that have broken the 1 million mark drew heavily from the Asian market. Lineage. Lineage II. WoW. Guild Wars. Etc. There are commonalities in their graphics/settings.
So you start with the proposition that this game is directed to the North American/European markets, and factor in its niche qualities, and you are talking about a game that will never have big numbers. Add to that Sigil's many screw ups and it gets worse.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
i have read a lot of comments about WoW's graphic but never that they were 'Asian' orientated. The fact remains that very few games at all have breached the 1M mark in terms of current subscribers: to be precise three Lineage, Lineage 2, WoW to which GW should be added as well.
Also worth noting that WoW has passed 1M in the US and 1M in Europe so it can be done without Asia - but it is obviously easier if you are able to target a larger market (so Asian orientated graphics might help agreed).
It's all rather sad.
As for World of Warcraft, people around here decry the "cartoony" look, but the truth is, the game looks like a Warcraft game. And if I remember correctly, both the Warcraft and Starcraft series are very popular in Asia as well. An MMO based on those games, and which is actually a sequel of sorts to all the games that came before it was bound to do well. it just happened to do a LOT better than anyone, even Blizzard, expected that it would.
Never, regardless of how good the game gets, getting 500k subs from a launch like this would require divine intervention, and then some.
200k steady players would be an impressive feat and I even doubt it will reach that.
This market just do not not work that way.
It is more likely MacOS will surpass Windows, could it happen? Yes.
Is it likely? No.
As of now I am running around naked waiting for GM to summon my tombstone that got lost somehow, as of rigth now I am not very pleased at all with this game.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks
reviews (average score 72%): uk.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/vanguard/review.html
High system requirments for minimal gfx enjoyment is enough to push most away.
I noticed the other day my local PCWorld had about 10 copies and had redice the price to £24.99 from the initial £32.99 (which i paid for it 3 weeks back). Niche and will never reach 500k. By the time Vanguard does get good (if it does) other big name games will be released and have stolen all of Vanguard's thunder. It will get lost in the shuffle of LOTRO, AOC, and Warhammer.
That's probably the truest thing yet posted.
Vanguard likely WILL get lost amonst those games, even if two out of three of them are good (or even just one) . And LOTRO, to this point, looks like it will be good; or at least very polished.
it is really hard to tell about this game, it was released far too early. They have at least 6 months of more development if not more before it is ready for the general MMO playerbase. They really hurt themselves releasing the game in such a sorry state.
After a month in Vanguard, I tried the stress test for LOTRO this weekend, what a breath of fresh air. Amazing how much better LOTRO is and it is still in beta.
I just don't think Vanguard can reach that high of a playerbase. They have way too much to do, to make the game playable and without the first time subscribers sticking around it is going to be hurting.
Their slow, buggy start does not bode well for the future.
I doubt that they'll ever see more than 150,000 subscribers, and probably less than that. This game will fall into niche mode at a rapid pace and never acheive wide popularity.
Some games do well in the west, but not in the east, and vice-versa. Rarely does a game do overwhelmingly well in both like WoW though. So it's not an affliction all unto Vanguard or it's choice of art style.
Some games do well in the west, but not in the east, and vice-versa. Rarely does a game do overwhelmingly well in both like WoW though. So it's not an affliction all unto Vanguard or it's choice of art style. WoW has roughly 2.5 million from Europe and NA and I think aroun 500k in korea. So yes you can break 1 million without asia. But clearly their released numbers are very very much bolstered by China.
Some games do well in the west, but not in the east, and vice-versa. Rarely does a game do overwhelmingly well in both like WoW though. So it's not an affliction all unto Vanguard or it's choice of art style. WoW has roughly 2.5 million from Europe and NA and I think aroun 500k in korea. So yes you can break 1 million without asia. But clearly their released numbers are very very much bolstered by China. 2 million in North America alone. Another 1.5 million in Europe as of the last press release, certainly a ton more than that by now given Burning Crusades has gone on to break a one-day sell record of 2.4 million in just those two markets since then; a hike in an already ridiculous unwavering momentum.
...But who's counting!
It goes to show that you see exponential success or lackthereof, not just marginal differences depending on the momentum built in great launches and bad ones.
But it was the best game right?
eqnext.wikia.com
But it was the best game right?
Problem with comparing Vanguard to SWG is that SWG had the entire weight of the Star Wars intellectual property and franchise behind it and thus could draw on a larger pool of potential subscribers (i.e., people who have never played MMORPGs but loved Star Wars).
Vanguard doesn't have that advantage. From day 1, it's potential subscriber pool was already much, much smaller than say SWG or WoW or LOTRO, all of which have the possibility of attracting fans from outside the video game community, and certainly the MMORPG community. Vanguard, unfortunately, must attract its players solely from past and present MMORPG players, and to a lesser extent video game players in general.
Another thing to think about when speaking of the Asian market for Vanguard is its hefty system requirements. I freely admit to not having any hard data here, but it seems to me that Asian gamers seem less obsessed about owning top of the line rigs. I come to this conclusion simply by looking at the types of MMORPGs that are successful in the Asian market - i.e., low levels of character customization, pretty but static landscapes, etc. And this is if the game is even in 3D! It seems many 2D games are still very popular in Asia.
Factor in the overwhelming popularity of console gaming, and this leads me to conclude that Vanguard, with its incredibly unforgiving system requirements, would have a hard time appealing to Asian gamers by the mere fact that it's too much of a hassle even trying to get it to run!
Another thing to think about when speaking of the Asian market for Vanguard is its hefty system requirements. I freely admit to not having any hard data here, but it seems to me that Asian gamers seem less obsessed about owning top of the line rigs. I come to this conclusion simply by looking at the types of MMORPGs that are successful in the Asian market - i.e., low levels of character customization, pretty but static landscapes, etc. And this is if the game is even in 3D! It seems many 2D games are still very popular in Asia.
Factor in the overwhelming popularity of console gaming, and this leads me to conclude that Vanguard, with its incredibly unforgiving system requirements, would have a hard time appealing to Asian gamers by the mere fact that it's too much of a hassle even trying to get it to run!
That's a good point; not to mention the huge cybercafe culture. High-end systems, and incentive to tweak .ini settings even with high-end systems are both counter-intuitive towards that.But it was the best game right?
SWG started off pretty darn big at release then fell off to a core of hard core players after the first few months. My guild went from well over 100 members to less than 10 and merged with another guild within the first 4 months. That was about the time I gave up all hope of them ever fixing the Bio Eng profession and canceled also.
Games that release badly have a hard time it seems, EQII and Eve is the only ones I can think of that really grew. AO did ok but still struggles, Horizons and Dark and Light should just pull the plug on the servers.
I miss DAoC
it will get there soon prolly even get to a mill
i know lots of ppl that r not playing cos we need to upgrade our pc's but once thats done we will play this hardcore