I really enjoyed how much different he comes across now than he did during the development phase, particularly the first three years. There used to be very little talk about making the game more accessible, but now he realizes it is a necessity in today's climate.
Yup. This reminds me so much of the DDO launch without any soloable content that it is uncanny. I watched DDO very carefully through the development phase (big-time old school D&D fan here). I was interested (until I found out it was going twitch-based, which I learned not from them, but from a friend who was in alpha). In any case, at one point on their forums it became known that the game would not have much (if any) soloable content because "D&D is played with game groups."
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
It's mind-boggling the number of peopel who think that Brad has changed his tune. I followed VG's development since 2003 and it's remained pretty consistent. It was ALWAYS a game that wanted to strike a balance between the old and the new. Always. There was NEVER any indication excpet in some very limited and specific ways in which it was compared to EQ. It was always a matter of borrowing certain aspects from a variety of MMOs. It's just that whenever it was compared with EQ in any way, the hardcore freaks ran with that and tuned everything else out. So when Jeff Butler said they understood over two years ago that people don't have the time to commit to a game as was required in EQ and this this limitation would be reflected in VG, apparently no one heard it! Or they heard it and pretended they didn't.
Yep Brad was always talking about trying satisfy the casual, core and hardcore. I think his whole line is complete BS but there is no doubt he has been trying to ho a row that placates each camp for quite some time.
Unfortunately BMQ is really incapable of seeing that what is he saying is BS/unworkable. Satisfying hardcores is a death sentence they are inhenrently unreasonable/neurotic and love to drive all otehr camps away, and even more unfortunate for him they had camped out on VG's turf long ago. These hardcore guys are different than just serious players, they are obessive and lack any ability to even try to see things through others eyes.
I really enjoyed how much different he comes across now than he did during the development phase, particularly the first three years. There used to be very little talk about making the game more accessible, but now he realizes it is a necessity in today's climate.
Yup. This reminds me so much of the DDO launch without any soloable content that it is uncanny. I watched DDO very carefully through the development phase (big-time old school D&D fan here). I was interested (until I found out it was going twitch-based, which I learned not from them, but from a friend who was in alpha). In any case, at one point on their forums it became known that the game would not have much (if any) soloable content because "D&D is played with game groups."
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
It's mind-boggling the number of peopel who think that Brad has changed his tune. I followed VG's development since 2003 and it's remained pretty consistent. It was ALWAYS a game that wanted to strike a balance between the old and the new. Always. There was NEVER any indication excpet in some very limited and specific ways in which it was compared to EQ. It was always a matter of borrowing certain aspects from a variety of MMOs. It's just that whenever it was compared with EQ in any way, the hardcore freaks ran with that and tuned everything else out. So when Jeff Butler said they understood over two years ago that people don't have the time to commit to a game as was required in EQ and this this limitation would be reflected in VG, apparently no one heard it! Or they heard it and pretended they didn't.
Yep Brad was always talking about trying satisfy the casual, core and hardcore. I think his whole line is complete BS but there is no doubt he has been trying to ho a row that placates each camp for quite some time.
Unfortunately BMQ is really incapable of seeing that what is he saying is BS/unworkable. Satisfying hardcores is a death sentence they are inhenrently unreasonable/neurotic and love to drive all otehr camps away, and even more unfortunate for him they had camped out on VG's turf long ago. These hardcore guys are different than just serious players, they are obessive and lack any ability to even try to see things through others eyes.
But, I play casually, and this is the kind of thing I was talking about when I quoted the same post you did.
Bunch of twisting and bending because it serves your purpose and easier then using, BMQ was right; casual players do play VG and enjoy it. Not quite the stay away comment as VG is full of hardcore mmo'ers that will drive you from the game if you try to play casually.
I have never in my life seen anyone use that many words to say absolutely nothing of substance. Appreciate the effort, Brad, but it seems to me you're saying that you managed, in trying to reach all those customer groups, to satisfy none of them. And honestly, I think it's too late to start trying now. You only get one chance in this business.
LOL who are you? the chief of the industry? No you dont only get one chance in this business. What a load of crap.
Brad is doing well.. he has a brain to be where he is.. he made EQ1 possible.. and now he has made VG a joy for me and people like me who enjoy these types of MMOs..
jeez. LOL... as if you know how the business is run.
How do you know I'm not?
And please..if you get more than one chance, name me anything that has crashed and burned this hard and turned into a bona fide success. You can't. Your best chance to make a splash is the first 30 days- If you don't, the vast majority of the people who turn away will not come back to you. Some will..but I bet 90% of the paying folks you lose at the start are gone for good. You get one chance to impress most people, and Brad's little toy hasn't done that for almost everyone I met in game. Out of the 20 people I had on my friend's list, 4 of them have been logged in in the last 2 weeks. I bet that's a little over the average, but I'm willing to bet that 50% did not subscribe after the free month.
If you flop right off the bat- and compared to expectations, there's no way you can say this game didn't- you aren't going to be able to come out with "Hey guys come back it's all better now!" three months later and become a huge success. The only time anything even close has happened was with Anarchy Online, and it has never been anything but a niche game. You have one chance to impress everyone. If you don't, it's over. Hello 20-30K subs.
You mean like Eve Online which started with about only 20k and now has over 100? Or did you mean EQ which got mediocre reviews, started at only 100k and ended with over 400? Ever successful MMO I know took years to reach its subscription peak.
I wonder how 100k to start has now become a "flop." It's a perfectly respectable begining actually.
You mean Eve, a completely unpublicised game from a tiny developer?
Or EQ, the first game of it's kind ever?
Apples and oranges. VG was hyped to high heaven. People were talking it up as half a million initial sales (not official, but the hype was there). MMOGs are now at the highest point of popularity, with a fan base in the multimillions, opposed to the few hundred thousand who even knew about EQ on the day it went live.
With all that said- I guarantee you EQ had a better retention rate 30 days in. I would be willing to bet that of the 100K boxes VG sold, about 30K actually paid for the first month and are still around. The terrible condition of the game, the absolute disappointment in how completely generic it is, and the primarily negative press are not helping. Honestly- I think Vanguard is as popular as it's ever going to be. Too much competition that does it better, and nothing new to offer besides a boring little card game. It isn't going to cut it.
And after what they ignored from the testers in beta, the line of crap they fed us, and the junk they ended up giving us- it wouldn't hurt me feelings a bit to see that sub number around 10K and see Sigil lose their pants. They suck as a company.
Here's some Basic Business 101: Let your product speak for itself.
The massive statements this guy makes to defend and publicize his game, they're outrageous. When you have to write a damned essay to explain BASIC problems with your game, that's enough, just stop right there.
I also never fell for the whole "vision" garbage. Anyone can be a visionary; true innovators are also masters of execution.
Well said. if you have to explain your product to the consumer then it really isn't that good
Im sure you've heard of the word, ADVERTISING.
Oh wait, you got me! You're a part of the joke.
Lol, speak for itself! That is a funny one.
Advertising comes in the form of a banner, a commercial, or a promotional offer; not a 21-point explanation for all the faults the game has with it.
If you need a manual to explain why your game sucks, but how you can improve it, that's not advertising.
And yes, the best products sell themselves.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I really enjoyed how much different he comes across now than he did during the development phase, particularly the first three years. There used to be very little talk about making the game more accessible, but now he realizes it is a necessity in today's climate.
Yup. This reminds me so much of the DDO launch without any soloable content that it is uncanny. I watched DDO very carefully through the development phase (big-time old school D&D fan here). I was interested (until I found out it was going twitch-based, which I learned not from them, but from a friend who was in alpha). In any case, at one point on their forums it became known that the game would not have much (if any) soloable content because "D&D is played with game groups."
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
I hate having to defend vanbois and vanguard. But many people who get in alpha/betas early on are sincerly behind the effort. They got into it because they are really interested in what is getting done. There is something to be said about building based on a vision (good and bad) vs build by committee.
In regards to a game like DDO, they did make mistakes. I was in the the first external alpha, and played through beta. Even before alpha, I had communicated with the devs about various issues on the forums as well as my own concerns. I don't think they were receptive at all in most cases. Forced grouping was their aim, I voiced my opinion then moved on. That is what you try to do as an adult. Where I think they made a big mistake was having a quest only game with such a few number of quests (IIRC, only 135 quests at launch). They needed a lot more than that. Should there have been solo content, IMO yes. But not the endless xp farming IMO.
As to Brad it seems he changed the core vision last year and that is just business. He saw the writing on the wall, but he personally had alienated may players based on his posturing.
Vangaurd has had it's shot. Not getting another one from me unless someone is willing to pay the costs.
I followed this game down a road from about 2005 to disappointment.
A couple corrections though. It was very clear to me from the get go that the intenion was to make this game accessible to everyone not just the hard core crew.
The problem is they bit off more than they could chew and try to be something to everyone and they ran out of time.
Plus I remain unconvinced of Sigil's ability to make an MMO. I question how much of the EQ heritigage came f rom Brad and how much of it was influenced by others. I connect with Blizzard's vision of a 2nd gen game because they delivered a game that works and I dont need to read essays on why people should play it.
oh and if you didn't want to be compared as a WoW clone you shouldn't have copied WoWs default UI.
Every time it seems I read anything that comes anywhere near SOE there is more Drama then on a Afternoon soap.
ancient relationship mantra: never stay with somebody based on what they 'could' become. the same goes for mmorpgs. it is what it is. vg suxxors. some people will still go down with the ship, while swearing it's not sinking.
VG sux for you, Im having fun playing
and even without your sub vg can survive
It's comments like this that give the whole VG community a bad name and make it to where nobody even wants to give it a try. You're having a good time. Great for you but not everybody feels the same way. If the majority of people having problems with the game just up and left, you woulldn't have anybody to play with and the game would go under. Your comment does more harm to this game than good and is a good example of what Brad is talking about.
I think he sounded down to earth and realistic. I think it took some balls to talk the way he did. That was not at all some carefully drafted up form speech. There is and will be more content for players of all types. The world is THAT big...with LOTS of room to grow. I traveled that road with Horizons for 3 years..and there is absolutely no comparison. ( as one poster here compared it too ) Horizons was way...way...way worse bug and content wise for the first 6 months. Horizons is STILL buggier ...over 3 years later ....than Vanguard is. I get the same fps in Horizons as I do with Vanguard. Horizons turned up max BUT ...still much much worse looking than Vanguard set to highest performance....ok.....just high performance maybe...but still. I appreciate the way he spent special time and directly talked about the Wowbois and the Vanbois tension. This ain't gang riverly yall ! To each his own in my book ! Play online to have fun ! I If you are having fun...then keep playing till you stop having fun anymore....Then finds something else to play till you start having fun again. * Edit ~ I in no way work for or am associated to Sigil or Sony... I resent the fact that there are those who would emply that someone pro -vanguard must be paid to be so. Ever think that their are ALOT of people that like this game? They too busy playing to post on it though...as I'm off to do right now. Vanguard really is a very good game....I think it wll get only better for a very long time. Play Vanguard !
The game that sucks less than the rest !
Even the people having problems liked the game or at least had an interest in it. What angers most is the diehard fanatics who claim anyone having problems is a liar, an idiot or a hater. Anyone critical of the game usually ends up hearing the famed vanboi warcry of "Go back to WoW". It's all over every single VG website and forum including the official tech support forums. It's totally uncalled for.
As far as what Brad had to say is concerned, I'm a skeptic. Actions are louder than words. I believe at this point Brad is just in spin mode and doing damage control. He's telling people what they want to hear. I'd be doing the same thing if I were in his shoes. There's a lot at stake for him and his company. It certainly doesn't take balls to tell people what they want to hear. If the patch had a positive effect instead of a negative one, I doubt we would have ever heard from Brad at all.
It's not that I hate Brad, Sigil or this game. I just take things with a grain of salt. I'm not naive or guillible enough to think that Brad is opening up to us because he wants to or that they're giving double xp out of the kindness of their hearts as a show of appreciation. This is a game for us. It's a business to them. Everything they say or do is motivated by money. They need subscribers and they'll say or do anything to get them. If I was in their shoes, I would too.
Here's some Basic Business 101: Let your product speak for itself.
The massive statements this guy makes to defend and publicize his game, they're outrageous. When you have to write a damned essay to explain BASIC problems with your game, that's enough, just stop right there.
I also never fell for the whole "vision" garbage. Anyone can be a visionary; true innovators are also masters of execution.
Well said. if you have to explain your product to the consumer then it really isn't that good
Im sure you've heard of the word, ADVERTISING.
Oh wait, you got me! You're a part of the joke.
Lol, speak for itself! That is a funny one.
I've heard of the word ADVERTISING. I've also heard of the concept WORD OF MOUTH. Right now that concept is spreading the word that this game has major problems. Sigil with their patch flop and untested updates before the patch, aren't doing anything to prove otherwise. With the way the game released they needed to put a major patch out that pretty much proved they were competent enough to fix the game. Instead the patch came out half arsed and made them look like a bunch of bumbling fools.
When did he write that? Because in SEVERAL interviews right before the game was released he commented on the fact that Sigil prided on the fact this game isn't for the weak of hearted and will tend to be loved by HardCore gamers. It's like he did a 180. And, yes, what does he mean about implementing Viral ads ingame? WTF, Brad. I don't think you get it. Dont get your employees to pose as regular people and then have them post awesome comments on public boards! SWG got caught doing that and it just made things worse for em (Post NGE)
Brad doesn't get it. I think he's actually convinced himself that whatever he says is true. Like saying the game has casual player content (rofl). Or that it's the "forum posters" that caused the response VG received at launch. Or that "people assumed that since the EQ team made it that it would be like EQ and take a long time to level", well guess what dumb ass it is just like EQ and it does take a long time to level.
When did he write that? Because in SEVERAL interviews right before the game was released he commented on the fact that Sigil prided on the fact this game isn't for the weak of hearted and will tend to be loved by HardCore gamers. It's like he did a 180. And, yes, what does he mean about implementing Viral ads ingame? WTF, Brad. I don't think you get it. Dont get your employees to pose as regular people and then have them post awesome comments on public boards! SWG got caught doing that and it just made things worse for em (Post NGE)
Brad doesn't get it. I think he's actually convinced himself that whatever he says is true. Like saying the game has casual player content (rofl). Or that it's the "forum posters" that caused the response VG received at launch. Or that "people assumed that since the EQ team made it that it would be like EQ and take a long time to level", well guess what dumb ass it is just like EQ and it does take a long time to level.
He's really and truely clueless. he is his own worst enemy right now. He needs to just stfu already , if he ever wanrts to make another game again .
Here's some Basic Business 101: Let your product speak for itself.
The massive statements this guy makes to defend and publicize his game, they're outrageous. When you have to write a damned essay to explain BASIC problems with your game, that's enough, just stop right there.
I also never fell for the whole "vision" garbage. Anyone can be a visionary; true innovators are also masters of execution.
Well said. if you have to explain your product to the consumer then it really isn't that good
Im sure you've heard of the word, ADVERTISING.
Oh wait, you got me! You're a part of the joke.
Lol, speak for itself! That is a funny one.
yah you got me too
maybe if i advertise my turds as the next best MMORPG I can get you to buy it, i have spare time
Let the product speak for itself? This is not basic business 101 whatever you call it.. if it was.. marketing would not have existed at all. There is nothing wrong with VG.. brad has made the best game evern in MMO which is EQ. Now VG is made and so what if it was buggy? Every damn mmo i have ever played has always been buggy. It doesnt matter.. what you say.. ALL of them have been bugged at release. Its part of the genre..if you want to get an MMO without bugs.. then.. just wait and wait and wait forever.. as it will never happen. I dont understand why people can not grasp this simple honest point. What do they want? no matter WHEN the game was released.. it would contain bugs.. the game is at a "playable" state. The game has become alot more playable over the past month.. 1 MONTH thats all. There is nothing wrong with brad writing an essay of explanation. He is entitled to. If he said nothing YOU would moan.. if he said a little bit.. YOU would moan and whine and say "is that all he can say". He may aswell write as much as he wants to.. The guy is not an idiot.. otherwise he wouldnt have made EQ the best mmo ever and he has done great with VG and i am enjoying it alot.
I'm glad to see that there are still people with both feet on the ground
Those that indeed say Brad's a idiot must have more succes to their name then Brad has, funny that i can't recall any of these bashers anywhere seeing or reading they have accomplished anything other then making complete fools out of themselfs. Now someone that expresses his feeling or opinion which is not shared by others doesn't make one a fool, but reacting like some do with tellng lies, trying to bend the truth, trying to read what THEY WANT to read instead of undertstanding what is said, is making one.
Even when someone is being upfront and honost people will alway's find something that they can twist around to make it something it is not.
Ok, so my photoshop skills suck. But after having gotten back from the movie, and reading some of the threads here, I was reminded immensely of the film. Speaking of 300, if you're reading this, and have yet to see the movie. Turn off your damn computer, get out there, and see it. It IS purely awesome.
LOL!
So, which side of this battle have you been on Coldmeat? Trying hard not to look like an infatuated fanboi or a heated basher at the same time should be a draining place to be. Sorry, but trying the middle ground and playing a cool, unbiased UN peacemaker is not an option with this game.
Oh wait... your signature says where you have been! Now I apologize, you apparently have a greater taste for a decent game than I gave credit for.
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!
Here's some Basic Business 101: Let your product speak for itself.
The massive statements this guy makes to defend and publicize his game, they're outrageous. When you have to write a damned essay to explain BASIC problems with your game, that's enough, just stop right there.
I also never fell for the whole "vision" garbage. Anyone can be a visionary; true innovators are also masters of execution.
I remember Lee Iococa's ads for Chrysler, "If you can find a better car, buy it".
Rather than write a term paper, why doesn't Brad throw down the gauntlet and say the same thing?
ancient relationship mantra: never stay with somebody based on what they 'could' become. the same goes for mmorpgs. it is what it is. vg suxxors. some people will still go down with the ship, while swearing it's not sinking.
VG sux for you, Im having fun playing
and even without your sub vg can survive
It's comments like this that give the whole VG community a bad name and make it to where nobody even wants to give it a try. You're having a good time. Great for you but not everybody feels the same way. If the majority of people having problems with the game just up and left, you woulldn't have anybody to play with and the game would go under. Your comment does more harm to this game than good and is a good example of what Brad is talking about.
Shhh..don't say that. He's still in the denial stage. He thinks everyone else that does not buy this game is an idiot.
Leave quietly...the valium is on the desk over there.
Never be afraid of choices. More choices are always good things.
Here's some Basic Business 101: Let your product speak for itself.
The massive statements this guy makes to defend and publicize his game, they're outrageous. When you have to write a damned essay to explain BASIC problems with your game, that's enough, just stop right there.
I also never fell for the whole "vision" garbage. Anyone can be a visionary; true innovators are also masters of execution.
I remember Lee Iococa's ads for Chrysler, "If you can find a better car, buy it".
Rather than write a term paper, why doesn't Brad throw down the gauntlet and say the same thing?
I agree, let his product speak for itself.
I don't know what the hell this guy is on, but writing an essay to say nothing isn't good.
He should let someone else speak for him, he just rants..nonsense..and repeats and corrects himself 20 times.
Ok, so my photoshop skills suck. But after having gotten back from the movie, and reading some of the threads here, I was reminded immensely of the film. Speaking of 300, if you're reading this, and have yet to see the movie. Turn off your damn computer, get out there, and see it. It IS purely awesome.
Originally posted by Markaj LOL! So, which side of this battle have you been on Coldmeat? Trying hard not to look like an infatuated fanboi or a heated basher at the same time should be a draining place to be. Sorry, but trying the middle ground and playing a cool, unbiased UN peacemaker is not an option with this game. Oh wait... your signature says where you have been! Now I apologize, you apparently have a greater taste for a decent game than I gave credit for.
Eh, I'm a game player. I have boxes for EQ2, WoW, DDO, DAoC, CoX, Guild Wars, Vanguard, even SWG. I have an account in every domestic MMO there is. Even a few of the Asian ones. I am truly infatuated with MMOs. Even the poorly designed, or executed ones, if only from a forensic standpoint. I enjoy them for the possibilities they contain, and for what they could one day become, when the technology allowing us to interface in a more direct way is as readily available as a mouse and keyboard.
As far as Vanguard, I'm on my side. The bits that are broken, I call broken, the parts that are working, or that I find fun, are working and/or fun. I wouldn't liken myself to a UN Peacebroker, I'm more like the crows circling the battlefield
But then, I'm weird. I even sub to SWG every so often so I can play JtL. They managed to not flux that up, at least. Right now, I'm playing Vanguard, 9 Dragons, and Eve, though in Eve I'm now to the point where my skill trainings are measured in days, so I'm in more of a pop in, do a few mining runs, finish up a mission or two, then switch over to a skill training to level 4 or 5, and wait mode. Been dinking around with NWN2, and the toolset a lot lately.
Most of Brad's message seem to be that he thinks his game suffers from poor communication with the consumer than from any other problem. This could not be further from the truth. Vanguard suffers from being built by people who don't have a clue what they are doing. Vanguard suffers from being a BAD GAME. No amount of communication is going to fix that.
Case in point: let's re-read Brad's paragraph on the difficulty of finding groups:
I think we could have reached out to those people on other boards in a better way and made sure people knew that casual gamers are indeed welcome in Vanguard. I also think that after level 12ish people are feeling that they have to group, and that is something we need to address. We also need better LFG tools so that people can find groups. We were over-worried that the newbie areas would be over crowded and now we face some under population as people level up and spread out over the large world that is Telon. That is why we are working on making the LFG tools better, looking into adding some overland teleportation, etc. Under population is actually worse than over population because it can be difficult to find people to play with and this hurts community building.
It's as if he had no idea this could be an issue -- any competent MMOG designer knows how critical it is to give people the best tools possible for finding groups, and to allow people to meet up with friends immediately upon entering the game. Anyone with a scrap of MMOG experience would have made this a priority from the earliest stages of designing the game mechanics and the world. The fact that this comes as a surprise to Brad show that he's learned absolutely nothing about game design since his days with EQ.
This example is just one of many I could pull out of his post. What a post! It provides us with so much insight into this miserable failure. I was pretty sure a lot of the Vanbois were being paid to say such ridiculously optimisitic things about a game that is the opposite of fun, and his admission that he leans so heavily on viral marketing confirms my every suspicion.
In the end, what I see here is a man who knows he will not get another chance to design a game, and who is furiously backpedaling to try to win the support of those who warned him time and time again that his Vision was not the gift from the heavens he thought it was. Desperation at its most pathetic.
Anyone who says otherwise is either obscenely gullible or is on the marketing payroll.
Sigil does have a lot of talented people on the team.
I think most of the problem lies not so much in the execution, but in their poor managing of expectations. Both those of the fans, and their own in terms of what they could get in the game, and working.
They are very much victims of their own ambition. And a healthy dose of Ivory tower-ism in the beginning. Had they scaled back the scope of the game in terms of what they initially released, and then stuck to their guns, WoWs insane success notwithstanding and the changes it brought to the game, it would have saved them from having to redo large parts of the game wholesale halfway through the dev cycle, which would have left them a lot more time to get what they do have in the game 'finished'.
They would have been better off making two lists. One for things that will be in the game as of release, which could realistically been done, and a second wishlist of things they want to have in the game that will be added after release, as free content releases.
They were also hurt by promising things that sounded great on paper, but just couldn't be made to work right in the game, especially once there were more than a small group of people beating on them. Fellowships is a good example. The idea sounds great on paper, but it just doesn't work well in practice.
As for McQuaid himself? He's a capable game designer. Some people may not agree with his design ideas, but that's a given, regardless of who's designing the game. His weakness is that he's a piss poor manager, and that he's very passionate about his games, so he has a bad tendency to be too talkative, and friendly with the players during the dev process. If he just designed the game, and left the managing of the game to more able people, and kept his yap shut on the forums, we'd be seeing a fairly different reaction to the game, I think.
Comments
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
It's mind-boggling the number of peopel who think that Brad has changed his tune. I followed VG's development since 2003 and it's remained pretty consistent. It was ALWAYS a game that wanted to strike a balance between the old and the new. Always. There was NEVER any indication excpet in some very limited and specific ways in which it was compared to EQ. It was always a matter of borrowing certain aspects from a variety of MMOs. It's just that whenever it was compared with EQ in any way, the hardcore freaks ran with that and tuned everything else out. So when Jeff Butler said they understood over two years ago that people don't have the time to commit to a game as was required in EQ and this this limitation would be reflected in VG, apparently no one heard it! Or they heard it and pretended they didn't.
Yep Brad was always talking about trying satisfy the casual, core and hardcore. I think his whole line is complete BS but there is no doubt he has been trying to ho a row that placates each camp for quite some time.Unfortunately BMQ is really incapable of seeing that what is he saying is BS/unworkable. Satisfying hardcores is a death sentence they are inhenrently unreasonable/neurotic and love to drive all otehr camps away, and even more unfortunate for him they had camped out on VG's turf long ago. These hardcore guys are different than just serious players, they are obessive and lack any ability to even try to see things through others eyes.
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
It's mind-boggling the number of peopel who think that Brad has changed his tune. I followed VG's development since 2003 and it's remained pretty consistent. It was ALWAYS a game that wanted to strike a balance between the old and the new. Always. There was NEVER any indication excpet in some very limited and specific ways in which it was compared to EQ. It was always a matter of borrowing certain aspects from a variety of MMOs. It's just that whenever it was compared with EQ in any way, the hardcore freaks ran with that and tuned everything else out. So when Jeff Butler said they understood over two years ago that people don't have the time to commit to a game as was required in EQ and this this limitation would be reflected in VG, apparently no one heard it! Or they heard it and pretended they didn't.
Yep Brad was always talking about trying satisfy the casual, core and hardcore. I think his whole line is complete BS but there is no doubt he has been trying to ho a row that placates each camp for quite some time.Unfortunately BMQ is really incapable of seeing that what is he saying is BS/unworkable. Satisfying hardcores is a death sentence they are inhenrently unreasonable/neurotic and love to drive all otehr camps away, and even more unfortunate for him they had camped out on VG's turf long ago. These hardcore guys are different than just serious players, they are obessive and lack any ability to even try to see things through others eyes.
But, I play casually, and this is the kind of thing I was talking about when I quoted the same post you did.
Bunch of twisting and bending because it serves your purpose and easier then using, BMQ was right; casual players do play VG and enjoy it. Not quite the stay away comment as VG is full of hardcore mmo'ers that will drive you from the game if you try to play casually.
LOL who are you? the chief of the industry? No you dont only get one chance in this business. What a load of crap.
Brad is doing well.. he has a brain to be where he is.. he made EQ1 possible.. and now he has made VG a joy for me and people like me who enjoy these types of MMOs..
jeez. LOL... as if you know how the business is run.
How do you know I'm not?And please..if you get more than one chance, name me anything that has crashed and burned this hard and turned into a bona fide success. You can't. Your best chance to make a splash is the first 30 days- If you don't, the vast majority of the people who turn away will not come back to you. Some will..but I bet 90% of the paying folks you lose at the start are gone for good. You get one chance to impress most people, and Brad's little toy hasn't done that for almost everyone I met in game. Out of the 20 people I had on my friend's list, 4 of them have been logged in in the last 2 weeks. I bet that's a little over the average, but I'm willing to bet that 50% did not subscribe after the free month.
If you flop right off the bat- and compared to expectations, there's no way you can say this game didn't- you aren't going to be able to come out with "Hey guys come back it's all better now!" three months later and become a huge success. The only time anything even close has happened was with Anarchy Online, and it has never been anything but a niche game. You have one chance to impress everyone. If you don't, it's over. Hello 20-30K subs.
You mean like Eve Online which started with about only 20k and now has over 100? Or did you mean EQ which got mediocre reviews, started at only 100k and ended with over 400? Ever successful MMO I know took years to reach its subscription peak.
I wonder how 100k to start has now become a "flop." It's a perfectly respectable begining actually.
You mean Eve, a completely unpublicised game from a tiny developer?Or EQ, the first game of it's kind ever?
Apples and oranges. VG was hyped to high heaven. People were talking it up as half a million initial sales (not official, but the hype was there). MMOGs are now at the highest point of popularity, with a fan base in the multimillions, opposed to the few hundred thousand who even knew about EQ on the day it went live.
With all that said- I guarantee you EQ had a better retention rate 30 days in. I would be willing to bet that of the 100K boxes VG sold, about 30K actually paid for the first month and are still around. The terrible condition of the game, the absolute disappointment in how completely generic it is, and the primarily negative press are not helping. Honestly- I think Vanguard is as popular as it's ever going to be. Too much competition that does it better, and nothing new to offer besides a boring little card game. It isn't going to cut it.
And after what they ignored from the testers in beta, the line of crap they fed us, and the junk they ended up giving us- it wouldn't hurt me feelings a bit to see that sub number around 10K and see Sigil lose their pants. They suck as a company.
Bite me, Turbine.
Well said. if you have to explain your product to the consumer then it really isn't that good
Im sure you've heard of the word, ADVERTISING.
Oh wait, you got me! You're a part of the joke.
Lol, speak for itself! That is a funny one.
Advertising comes in the form of a banner, a commercial, or a promotional offer; not a 21-point explanation for all the faults the game has with it.If you need a manual to explain why your game sucks, but how you can improve it, that's not advertising.
And yes, the best products sell themselves.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
"Full of sound and vision, signifying nothing" Macbeth, Shakespeare.
As for viral advertising anyone interested could try either wiki or here: www.vbma.net
it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Unless you're taking a jab at The Vision(tm), in which case, carry on.
I can only hope that some of the responses re: viral marketing that I've read in this thread are sarcasm...
P.S. Go see 300.
There's some viral marketing for ya.
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
I hate having to defend vanbois and vanguard. But many people who get in alpha/betas early on are sincerly behind the effort. They got into it because they are really interested in what is getting done. There is something to be said about building based on a vision (good and bad) vs build by committee.
In regards to a game like DDO, they did make mistakes. I was in the the first external alpha, and played through beta. Even before alpha, I had communicated with the devs about various issues on the forums as well as my own concerns. I don't think they were receptive at all in most cases. Forced grouping was their aim, I voiced my opinion then moved on. That is what you try to do as an adult. Where I think they made a big mistake was having a quest only game with such a few number of quests (IIRC, only 135 quests at launch). They needed a lot more than that. Should there have been solo content, IMO yes. But not the endless xp farming IMO.
As to Brad it seems he changed the core vision last year and that is just business. He saw the writing on the wall, but he personally had alienated may players based on his posturing.
Vangaurd has had it's shot. Not getting another one from me unless someone is willing to pay the costs.
I followed this game down a road from about 2005 to disappointment.
A couple corrections though. It was very clear to me from the get go that the intenion was to make this game accessible to everyone not just the hard core crew.
The problem is they bit off more than they could chew and try to be something to everyone and they ran out of time.
Plus I remain unconvinced of Sigil's ability to make an MMO. I question how much of the EQ heritigage came f rom Brad and how much of it was influenced by others. I connect with Blizzard's vision of a 2nd gen game because they delivered a game that works and I dont need to read essays on why people should play it.
oh and if you didn't want to be compared as a WoW clone you shouldn't have copied WoWs default UI.
Every time it seems I read anything that comes anywhere near SOE there is more Drama then on a Afternoon soap.
VG sux for you, Im having fun playing
and even without your sub vg can survive
It's comments like this that give the whole VG community a bad name and make it to where nobody even wants to give it a try. You're having a good time. Great for you but not everybody feels the same way. If the majority of people having problems with the game just up and left, you woulldn't have anybody to play with and the game would go under. Your comment does more harm to this game than good and is a good example of what Brad is talking about.
who me ?
Even the people having problems liked the game or at least had an interest in it. What angers most is the diehard fanatics who claim anyone having problems is a liar, an idiot or a hater. Anyone critical of the game usually ends up hearing the famed vanboi warcry of "Go back to WoW". It's all over every single VG website and forum including the official tech support forums. It's totally uncalled for.
As far as what Brad had to say is concerned, I'm a skeptic. Actions are louder than words. I believe at this point Brad is just in spin mode and doing damage control. He's telling people what they want to hear. I'd be doing the same thing if I were in his shoes. There's a lot at stake for him and his company. It certainly doesn't take balls to tell people what they want to hear. If the patch had a positive effect instead of a negative one, I doubt we would have ever heard from Brad at all.
It's not that I hate Brad, Sigil or this game. I just take things with a grain of salt. I'm not naive or guillible enough to think that Brad is opening up to us because he wants to or that they're giving double xp out of the kindness of their hearts as a show of appreciation. This is a game for us. It's a business to them. Everything they say or do is motivated by money. They need subscribers and they'll say or do anything to get them. If I was in their shoes, I would too.
Well said. if you have to explain your product to the consumer then it really isn't that good
Im sure you've heard of the word, ADVERTISING.
Oh wait, you got me! You're a part of the joke.
Lol, speak for itself! That is a funny one.
I've heard of the word ADVERTISING. I've also heard of the concept WORD OF MOUTH. Right now that concept is spreading the word that this game has major problems. Sigil with their patch flop and untested updates before the patch, aren't doing anything to prove otherwise. With the way the game released they needed to put a major patch out that pretty much proved they were competent enough to fix the game. Instead the patch came out half arsed and made them look like a bunch of bumbling fools.He's really and truely clueless.
He's really and truely clueless. he is his own worst enemy right now. He needs to just stfu already , if he ever wanrts to make another game again .
who me ?
Well said. if you have to explain your product to the consumer then it really isn't that good
Im sure you've heard of the word, ADVERTISING.
Oh wait, you got me! You're a part of the joke.
Lol, speak for itself! That is a funny one.
yah you got me toomaybe if i advertise my turds as the next best MMORPG I can get you to buy it, i have spare time
I'm glad to see that there are still people with both feet on the ground
Those that indeed say Brad's a idiot must have more succes to their name then Brad has, funny that i can't recall any of these bashers anywhere seeing or reading they have accomplished anything other then making complete fools out of themselfs. Now someone that expresses his feeling or opinion which is not shared by others doesn't make one a fool, but reacting like some do with tellng lies, trying to bend the truth, trying to read what THEY WANT to read instead of undertstanding what is said, is making one.
Even when someone is being upfront and honost people will alway's find something that they can twist around to make it something it is not.
LOL!
So, which side of this battle have you been on Coldmeat? Trying hard not to look like an infatuated fanboi or a heated basher at the same time should be a draining place to be. Sorry, but trying the middle ground and playing a cool, unbiased UN peacemaker is not an option with this game.
Oh wait... your signature says where you have been! Now I apologize, you apparently have a greater taste for a decent game than I gave credit for.
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!
I remember Lee Iococa's ads for Chrysler, "If you can find a better car, buy it".
Rather than write a term paper, why doesn't Brad throw down the gauntlet and say the same thing?
I agree, let his product speak for itself.
VG sux for you, Im having fun playing
and even without your sub vg can survive
It's comments like this that give the whole VG community a bad name and make it to where nobody even wants to give it a try. You're having a good time. Great for you but not everybody feels the same way. If the majority of people having problems with the game just up and left, you woulldn't have anybody to play with and the game would go under. Your comment does more harm to this game than good and is a good example of what Brad is talking about.
Shhh..don't say that. He's still in the denial stage. He thinks everyone else that does not buy this game is an idiot.
Leave quietly...the valium is on the desk over there.
Never be afraid of choices. More choices are always good things.
I remember Lee Iococa's ads for Chrysler, "If you can find a better car, buy it".
Rather than write a term paper, why doesn't Brad throw down the gauntlet and say the same thing?
I agree, let his product speak for itself.
I don't know what the hell this guy is on, but writing an essay to say nothing isn't good.
He should let someone else speak for him, he just rants..nonsense..and repeats and corrects himself 20 times.
Eh, I'm a game player. I have boxes for EQ2, WoW, DDO, DAoC, CoX, Guild Wars, Vanguard, even SWG. I have an account in every domestic MMO there is. Even a few of the Asian ones. I am truly infatuated with MMOs. Even the poorly designed, or executed ones, if only from a forensic standpoint. I enjoy them for the possibilities they contain, and for what they could one day become, when the technology allowing us to interface in a more direct way is as readily available as a mouse and keyboard.
As far as Vanguard, I'm on my side. The bits that are broken, I call broken, the parts that are working, or that I find fun, are working and/or fun. I wouldn't liken myself to a UN Peacebroker, I'm more like the crows circling the battlefield
But then, I'm weird. I even sub to SWG every so often so I can play JtL. They managed to not flux that up, at least. Right now, I'm playing Vanguard, 9 Dragons, and Eve, though in Eve I'm now to the point where my skill trainings are measured in days, so I'm in more of a pop in, do a few mining runs, finish up a mission or two, then switch over to a skill training to level 4 or 5, and wait mode. Been dinking around with NWN2, and the toolset a lot lately.
Most of Brad's message seem to be that he thinks his game suffers from poor communication with the consumer than from any other problem. This could not be further from the truth. Vanguard suffers from being built by people who don't have a clue what they are doing. Vanguard suffers from being a BAD GAME. No amount of communication is going to fix that.
Case in point: let's re-read Brad's paragraph on the difficulty of finding groups:
It's as if he had no idea this could be an issue -- any competent MMOG designer knows how critical it is to give people the best tools possible for finding groups, and to allow people to meet up with friends immediately upon entering the game. Anyone with a scrap of MMOG experience would have made this a priority from the earliest stages of designing the game mechanics and the world. The fact that this comes as a surprise to Brad show that he's learned absolutely nothing about game design since his days with EQ.
This example is just one of many I could pull out of his post. What a post! It provides us with so much insight into this miserable failure. I was pretty sure a lot of the Vanbois were being paid to say such ridiculously optimisitic things about a game that is the opposite of fun, and his admission that he leans so heavily on viral marketing confirms my every suspicion.
In the end, what I see here is a man who knows he will not get another chance to design a game, and who is furiously backpedaling to try to win the support of those who warned him time and time again that his Vision was not the gift from the heavens he thought it was. Desperation at its most pathetic.
Anyone who says otherwise is either obscenely gullible or is on the marketing payroll.
Sigil does have a lot of talented people on the team.
I think most of the problem lies not so much in the execution, but in their poor managing of expectations. Both those of the fans, and their own in terms of what they could get in the game, and working.
They are very much victims of their own ambition. And a healthy dose of Ivory tower-ism in the beginning. Had they scaled back the scope of the game in terms of what they initially released, and then stuck to their guns, WoWs insane success notwithstanding and the changes it brought to the game, it would have saved them from having to redo large parts of the game wholesale halfway through the dev cycle, which would have left them a lot more time to get what they do have in the game 'finished'.
They would have been better off making two lists. One for things that will be in the game as of release, which could realistically been done, and a second wishlist of things they want to have in the game that will be added after release, as free content releases.
They were also hurt by promising things that sounded great on paper, but just couldn't be made to work right in the game, especially once there were more than a small group of people beating on them. Fellowships is a good example. The idea sounds great on paper, but it just doesn't work well in practice.
As for McQuaid himself? He's a capable game designer. Some people may not agree with his design ideas, but that's a given, regardless of who's designing the game. His weakness is that he's a piss poor manager, and that he's very passionate about his games, so he has a bad tendency to be too talkative, and friendly with the players during the dev process. If he just designed the game, and left the managing of the game to more able people, and kept his yap shut on the forums, we'd be seeing a fairly different reaction to the game, I think.