No but I had fun laughing at a friend who did his whole WoW career and then bitched and moaned when someone stole all his crap and he logged in naked and helpless + lost alot of RL money for it.
Ohaan, if you don't have the time to farm or whatever, since you work 6 days a week, then you have bought the wrong game. Most MMORPGs, at least the major ones (WoW, EQ2, FFXI, etc) are designed to keep ppl playing. If you lack the time, then such games are not for you. Blaming on being to busy, is not a good reason to buy gold, etc - it's just a bad excuse.
Well a good reason or a bad excuse is just a matter of opinions. For me the most important part of playing a game is having fun, if you end up in some mindless grind, which you dont enjoy, but it needs to be done to get to the parts of the game you "do" enjoy.. in such a situation I can understand people buying money, I've done it myself once. I think its very nice for you you have a different opinion, and I'm sad for you it's making you mark people who buy money as "losers" and people who "need to learn to play" I would say try to relativate, but if you wont I wouldn't care less.
Oh and btw, I think people should decide for themselves whether or not a game "is for them", they dont need to hear that from you or me unless they ask for that.
The problem is that gold buying creates mindless grinds. It doesn't cure them.
Why? Because it raises expectations. In an environment with frequent gold buying the average equipment level that people bring to a party will be higher. In order to be competitve non gold buyers will have to grind more. In order to maintain their advantage (or as the gold buyers see it, to make up for their time poverty), gold buyers are then forced to spend even more and a vicious cycle is created.
Oh and btw, I think people should decide for themselves whether or not a game "is for them", they dont need to hear that from you or me unless they ask for that.
In general, that is true.
But: If you KNOW that MMORPGs are extremely time consuming, AND you don't have much time to play, then it's pretty obvious that you should consider something else than a MMORPG.
Oh and btw, I think people should decide for themselves whether or not a game "is for them", they dont need to hear that from you or me unless they ask for that.
In general, that is true.
But: If you KNOW that MMORPGs are extremely time consuming, AND you don't have much time to play, then it's pretty obvious that you should consider something else than a MMORPG.
I think that shouldn't be an issue, there is no man with a gun on your head telling you you should finish the game or reach a certain goal or level within game before a certain set time or date.
Just as long as the peiods of time you actually can play the game are fun, and ok, if you're in a situation can play like 2 hrs a week (and the situation isnt likely to change) a mmorpg doesnt seem like a logical choice for a game but hey who am I to deny it to people if they want to play it, by all means go and play it.
The only part I really dislike about "goldbuying" is a mmorpg filled with money grinding bots, and that's a huge problem imo. But I'm not so sure who is to be blamed for that, you could say it's the players who bought the gold which influenced the amount of goldseller, but you could also say its a fault in the game design.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Why anyone would want to waste there money on pixels is beyond me. I used to have a co-worker who played Dark Age Of Camelot. He wanted it all, so he ended up actually paying 1,000 bucks for online platinum for the game. I called him retarded. He could of upgraded his computer or used it for something that was REAL! We gave him so much crap. People feed the farmers who buy online gold. That's why I never play those free to play mmo's that have in-game malls you spend real money on. What a rip. I would rather pay a monthly charge than buy pixels.
The problem is that gold buying creates mindless grinds. It doesn't cure them.
Why? Because it raises expectations. In an environment with frequent gold buying the average equipment level that people bring to a party will be higher. In order to be competitve non gold buyers will have to grind more. In order to maintain their advantage (or as the gold buyers see it, to make up for their time poverty), gold buyers are then forced to spend even more and a vicious cycle is created.
Yup, in case you buy ingame currency to buy equipment and if good equipment can be bought with ingame currency this is likely to be true. I don't think that buying ingame currency is solving game issues, but I can imagine it can solve certain issues for a player in a certain situation.
(However, when I replied to this topic I had ingame currency buying to overcome a certain "spoiling the game for you obstacle" in mind, I think buying ingame currency to gain an advantage over other players is a different story indeed)
Originally posted by Antipathy So far, no gold buyers have responded to my challenge.Can they define cheating in such a way that it both allows their own activities and forbids things such as hacking?What's the matter? Are your fingers paralyzed by guilt?Or do they admit it? Gold buyers are cheats.
I will gladly accept your challenge and to your challenge I will offer you that buying gold for any online game is NOT "cheating".
Lets use World of Warcraft as our example. The World of Warcraft game has a simple and easy mechanism that is used for sending other players goods or money. Using this method of gold transportation is obviously perfectly legal in the game. I can use it to send any one of my own characters on my own account gold. Perfectly legal and uses the games own mechanics to make that transfer.
Now we come to the point where I actually "buy" gold from another party. I pay them my own money to pay them for their time that it took them to acquire that gold and send my avatar that gold using the same legal transfer mechanics I mentioned above in World of Warcraft. And this is the point at which I assume that you will fire back that I am cheating.
To this, I will respond to you... Okay I paid another party to send that gold to me. What if that other party was my little brother who has an avatar on the very same account as myself and I simply said to him "hey bro, hook me up with 200 of your gold and I'll give you the $20 you need to buy that new skateboard you've been wanting." He delightfully agrees, needed the money to buy something that he really wants, and I am pleased that I don't have to spend all that time grinding my avatar for that gold in the game. Now I have enough gold to buy my epic mount, lets say. The transfer of that gold is between two different avatars in the game. This is perfectly legal. Blizzard certainly doesn't know that I paid my brother $20 to buy that gold and my brother didn't go in some magazine or on some billboard using the World of Warcraft name without permission to advertise such a price on WOW gold. But under your own words Antipathy, you would accuse me of cheating. I PAID for the gold. But what if my brother simply said "no way bro" when I asked to pay him for his gold, and told me that I already paid for the game and the monthly fee and he simply logged in and sent the gold to me without me paying him real world cash. Now I suppose that somehow I'm NOT "cheating"??
I've answered your call with a very plausible situation that is not only believable, but I've seen it actually happen. Explain to me how in my two examples in the paragraph above that one (I paid my brother $20) is cheating and one (My brother gives me the 200 gold free) isn't cheating and how that makes any sense when the exact same mechanics and process is used in both situations and I will be more then happy to further debate this with you.
So far, no gold buyers have responded to my challenge.
Can they define cheating in such a way that it both allows their own activities and forbids things such as hacking?
What's the matter? Are your fingers paralyzed by guilt?
Or do they admit it? Gold buyers are cheats.
By definition cheating is breaking the rules. If purchasing in game goods or services for real currency is against the rules then yes it is cheating.
However, the purpose of cheating in a competitive activity is usually to obtain an advantage over the competitors. As for whether or not gold buying provides an unfair advantage over ALL others player is not so easily declared. Theoretically I could get, through whatever means, my guildies to give me their time and resources to further my character.
You're going to argue that your agreement to play a game was made under duress? If you don't agree to the terms of a EULA of a game don't play it and find one you can.
Are you going to argue that they accepted my money under duress?
If you don't agree with how I use my game. Don't sell it to me.
Find someone else to sell it to or don't sell it at all.
To an extent I agree with you. Most of the EULA's that come with shrink-wrapped software are not legally binding. You have already agreed a contract when you have brought the game - hence the MMO company has no right to try to change the terms after the event. Especially when they are offering you nothing in return beyond what you have already paid for.
However your terminology is dodgy. The agreements are not "Illegal" - they are just not legally binding - very different. You have also not given the slightest evidence that they are immoral.
Illegal. As in a criminal offence.
Fraudulent. Specifically False Advertising. Not sold as advertised. All flaws and stipulations not clearly marked on the box or brought to your attention in advance of sale.
This is a civil offence in the U.S., but in here in the EU, it is a crime. Criminal. An imprisonable offence. You can all the police and demand an arrest.
The problem is that gold buying creates mindless grinds. It doesn't cure them.
Why? Because it raises expectations. In an environment with frequent gold buying the average equipment level that people bring to a party will be higher. In order to be competitve non gold buyers will have to grind more. In order to maintain their advantage (or as the gold buyers see it, to make up for their time poverty), gold buyers are then forced to spend even more and a vicious cycle is created.
While I do agree with you that gold buying is technically cheating if it's against the rules, I totally disagree with the notion that it creates grinds. It can arguably perpetuate them but regardless, the existence of grinding MMO gameplay is solely the responsibility of the game developers.
If the game was setup in such a way that the casual player could play with equal footing with the full time players then there would not be a market for RMT. However developers cannot seem to come up with ideas for involving game play that do not involve the virtual materialism of gear-chasing. Adding in side-dish PvP to an aggressive PvE model only makes matters worse. Now you have direct competition between other players where their equipment leads to numerical advantages.
Game developers know this. That is why they will only take a mild stance against RMT. They know that it is an inevitable consequence of their game design and will apply some pressure against it through EULAs and banning blatant offenders.
So far, no gold buyers have responded to my challenge.
Can they define cheating in such a way that it both allows their own activities and forbids things such as hacking?
What's the matter? Are your fingers paralyzed by guilt?
Or do they admit it? Gold buyers are cheats.
It's a jury-rigged question at best.
We all know that these activities are against the Terms of Service of the various games, and therefore by definition are "unpermitted" under thos TOS's. You're asking people to justify how something that is "umpermitted" really isn't -- kind of a silly question, really. Of course the gold buying is not allowed per the rules. The real question is whether is should be permitted or not, and that's where you're getting your answers.
To me, I don't think it should be illegal. It's a time versus money issue, plain and simple, and it makes good business sense to make the game's fun available to more people. The problem is that in the West we don't like this, we are annoyed that there are already so many unequal playing fields in life (e.g., the guy who drives the mercedes, when I am in a Toyota, the guy with the $1.5m mansion while I am in a condo, etc.), that we don't want these unequal playing fields replicated in games. To that I say: get over it. As long as there are people with more money than time to play these games and the games allow players to cut through that time element with currency, there will be a vibrant market for this kind of service, and it can't be practically stopped. It's no more "cheating" than the person who is being "unfair" because he is a student/independently wealthy/retired, and has oodles of time on his hands to play and uses that time to play -- it is totally unfair that these life situations that allow people more time to play are permitted to give these people an advantage in levelling their characters, acquiring items and the like, and the gold selling business is levelling the playing field against folks who are time rich (and perhaps cash poor) by allowing those who are time poor (and perhaps cash rich) to trade their time for cash. It's a simple issue of time vs. money, and there's no way you can ever change that.
I concur. I gace my mate 5,000 gold the other day. I've given loads of my mates gold. Is this cheating?
No.
It's part of the game. the game is built with this transaction specifically in mind.
If down the pub, that same mate goes, "hey Baff thanks so much for the gold, allow me to buy you a beer", does he suddenly become a cheat because the gold he has gained has now been paid for?
Of course not. The act of paying for that gold makes no difference to the advantage he has gained.
here are the points Ive read and heres how I see them;
1. Buying gold is ok because I dont have time to play. "This is a poor excuse since buying gold does nothing for the level of your character and would only be used to make your toon more LEET than the next guy. they sell Lvling services and one could argue that this service is more of what you need than gold purchases."
2. Im just using game mechanics and who cares where I get my gold from (the little broither theory). "This one is such a gray line. While you could agree that paying a friend for some gold is similar to buying it from a farmer there are some major differences. Such as the Farmer will use hyper-inflation to make more gold/ hack accounts to steal it/ use cons in-game to take it./ farm mobs creating a disruption. Your friend/brother played the game as was intended and ended up with a surplus that was shared and you were nice enough to pay him. (I think I have a way to explain this: Me and a frined go to a bar, he buys me a beer so I agree to pay him back later. This does not make him a buisness nor a bartender. The beer still got to me but it was the means that makes the difference. The bar makes money doing it and needs to be liscenced, pay taxes, obey rules. My buddy selling me a beer so to speak doesnt.)
3. Its not cheating, Its game mechanics. "THis is such a weak excuse used over and over. All haxxs ever used in-game were game mechanics. All cheats ever used in-game were game mechanics. They are there until the y get fixed. Doesnt make the right, doesnt make them not-cheats."
There is a judgement call we all need to make when it comes to these things and I could care less if you want to spend your Hard earned money on gold but at least admit your cheating. Yeah its a dirty word and if it scares you then dont do it. Really though, Im sure everyone has cheated before in one game or another. The sooner people admit it, the sooner we can come to solutions for the problems. Or not.
I will gladly accept your challenge and to your challenge I will offer you that buying gold for any online game is NOT "cheating".
My challenge was to come up with a definiton of cheating. You have not done so.
Lets use World of Warcraft as our example. The World of Warcraft game has a simple and easy mechanism that is used for sending other players goods or money. Using this method of gold transportation is obviously perfectly legal in the game. I can use it to send any one of my own characters on my own account gold. Perfectly legal and uses the games own mechanics to make that transfer.
Now we come to the point where I actually "buy" gold from another party. I pay them my own money to pay them for their time that it took them to acquire that gold and send my avatar that gold using the same legal transfer mechanics I mentioned above in World of Warcraft. And this is the point at which I assume that you will fire back that I am cheating.
To this, I will respond to you... Okay I paid another party to send that gold to me. What if that other party was my little brother who has an avatar on the very same account as myself and I simply said to him "hey bro, hook me up with 200 of your gold and I'll give you the $20 you need to buy that new skateboard you've been wanting." He delightfully agrees, needed the money to buy something that he really wants, and I am pleased that I don't have to spend all that time grinding my avatar for that gold in the game. Now I have enough gold to buy my epic mount, lets say. The transfer of that gold is between two different avatars in the game. This is perfectly legal. Blizzard certainly doesn't know that I paid my brother $20 to buy that gold and my brother didn't go in some magazine or on some billboard using the World of Warcraft name without permission to advertise such a price on WOW gold. But under your own words Antipathy, you would accuse me of cheating. I PAID for the gold. But what if my brother simply said "no way bro" when I asked to pay him for his gold, and told me that I already paid for the game and the monthly fee and he simply logged in and sent the gold to me without me paying him real world cash. Now I suppose that somehow I'm NOT "cheating"??
I've answered your call with a very plausible situation that is not only believable, but I've seen it actually happen. Explain to me how in my two examples in the paragraph above that one (I paid my brother $20) is cheating and one (My brother gives me the 200 gold free) isn't cheating and how that makes any sense when the exact same mechanics and process is used in both situations and I will be more then happy to further debate this with you.
It's always possible to come up with marginal cases that attempt to undermine any definition of fair behaviour. But surely the conclusion cannot be that there is no such thing as cheating which is where your argument appears to lead! Or do you reject any concept of cheating and of moral / immoral behaviour?
Most moral systems of behaviour base their conclusions on the effects that actions have on others. A single small transfer between syblings doesn't appear to represent much harm (whether the gold is paid for or not). But supporting a large scale industry which undermines the economy of MMOs, creates unrealistic equipment expectations and in some games ruins questing areas due to the density of farmers clearly harms other people. Hence I would view it as immoral.
I have offered a definiton of cheating in an earlier thread. I haven't got it to hand but it went something like:
A behaviour is cheating if it is:
a) Forbidden by rules created by the game manufacturer
and also
b) Rejected by a substantial portion of the games community.
By definition cheating is breaking the rules. If purchasing in game goods or services for real currency is against the rules then yes it is cheating.
However, the purpose of cheating in a competitive activity is usually to obtain an advantage over the competitors. As for whether or not gold buying provides an unfair advantage over ALL others player is not so easily declared. Theoretically I could get, through whatever means, my guildies to give me their time and resources to further my character.
Nice - you attempt to twist the topic in order to suit your purposes. No one claimed that buying gold provided an unfair advantage over ALL other players.
The problem is that it provides an unfair advantage over SOME other players.
SWEET. Yet ANOTHER thread about the legal implications of the EULA made by a hundred people who know NOTHING about legal implications.
Oh I do. The EULA is, on its face, enforceable as a license agreement -- your right to use the software, your "license" to use it, is limited by the terms of the EULA, which incorporate by reference the TOS.
The legal issue which has not to my knowledge been tested significantly in appellate litigation is whether consumer protection type laws limit what a company can put in its EULA/TOS -- that's really the issue here --. i.e., whether the EULA/TOS themselves are legal under consumer protection laws. There isn't a lot of caselaw about that in the US at least.
Illegal. As in a criminal offence. Fraudulent. Specifically False Advertising. Not sold as advertised. All flaws and stipulations not clearly marked on the box or brought to your attention in advance of sale. This is a civil offence in the U.S., but in here in the EU, it is a crime. Criminal. An imprisonable offence. You can all the police and demand an arrest.
Has anyone been arrested over the issue of software licenses? Is there any case law? Or parliamentary acts?
To me, I don't think it should be illegal. It's a time versus money issue, plain and simple, and it makes good business sense to make the game's fun available to more people.
You are merely repeating stuff that has already been said earlier in the thread. How boring!
You have not dealt with my counterexample. How is your "Time vs money" justfication morally different from a hacker using a "Time v Computer ability" justification. And if you think it is permissible to buy gold to obtain an uber weapon which would normally take weeks to grind for then then how would you feel about someone else hacking into the server and giving himself and his mates a copy of this weapon? For both use abilities outside the game to obtain items that are not obtained within the rules or mechanics of the game.
SWEET. Yet ANOTHER thread about the legal implications of the EULA made by a hundred people who know NOTHING about legal implications.
Enlighten us. May we learn from your wisdom.
Because I happen to believe that the world would be a better place if more than just incredibly highly paid lawyers have a basic understanding of the law and could talk about precisely what is and is not permitted.
Originally posted by alphajonny I want to get in on this one:here are the points Ive read and heres how I see them;1. Buying gold is ok because I dont have time to play. "This is a poor excuse since buying gold does nothing for the level of your character and would only be used to make your toon more LEET than the next guy. they sell Lvling services and one could argue that this service is more of what you need than gold purchases."2. Im just using game mechanics and who cares where I get my gold from (the little broither theory). "This one is such a gray line. While you could agree that paying a friend for some gold is similar to buying it from a farmer there are some major differences. Such as the Farmer will use hyper-inflation to make more gold/ hack accounts to steal it/ use cons in-game to take it./ farm mobs creating a disruption. Your friend/brother played the game as was intended and ended up with a surplus that was shared and you were nice enough to pay him. (I think I have a way to explain this: Me and a frined go to a bar, he buys me a beer so I agree to pay him back later. This does not make him a buisness nor a bartender. The beer still got to me but it was the means that makes the difference. The bar makes money doing it and needs to be liscenced, pay taxes, obey rules. My buddy selling me a beer so to speak doesnt.)3. Its not cheating, Its game mechanics. "THis is such a weak excuse used over and over. All haxxs ever used in-game were game mechanics. All cheats ever used in-game were game mechanics. They are there until the y get fixed. Doesnt make the right, doesnt make them not-cheats." There is a judgement call we all need to make when it comes to these things and I could care less if you want to spend your Hard earned money on gold but at least admit your cheating. Yeah its a dirty word and if it scares you then dont do it. Really though, Im sure everyone has cheated before in one game or another. The sooner people admit it, the sooner we can come to solutions for the problems. Or not.
It IS NOT "cheating".
It may very well be against the EULA and the user agreements. That's breaking the policy rules and risking consequential bans or suspensions or whatever in the game. But it isn't cheating. Especially when the games own mechanics allow for such transfers easily and freely.
To say whether or not such actions are "cheating", I think that it is first important that we define the actual word cheating and how cheating would apply to an mmorpg.
I would have to say that cheating in an mmorpg would be to hack or use a loophole or a 3rd party program (hacking) that gives one an unfair advantage in the game. Such as a speedhack. Or hacking the game so that your avatar has infinite health or so that he never takes damage. THAT would be cheating. It would obviously be thwarting the games mechanics or changing them beyond how they were originally coded to give oneself a totally unfair advantage.
But transfering gold using already in place game mechanics that allow such transfers without hacks and 3rd party programs is not "cheating". Why? because ANYONE CAN DO IT USING THE GAMES OWN BUILT IN MECHANICS. If I do it, and take any risks unvolved in the EULA and/or user agreements and I take a risk, however small, of getting my account banned or suspended or Blizzard taking me to court and suing me for $250,000 and putting me in prison for 5 years, blah, blah, blah. I take that risk, knowing without a doubt I will very likely suffer ZERO consequences because the game company ain't gonna do shit to me. So I take that BS risk and buy some gold off of ebay. Me and the Seller of the gold use the gmes own built in mechanics to transfer that gold, the same as my bother did for me in my previous post. Same exact thing. Same exact process.
I'm simply breaking a rule in the user agreement. It isn't cheating. You can do it too.
I also speed on my freeways by 5-10 mph typically. Am I "cheating" here in our real world instead of the virtual world by speeding too? No, I'm taking a risk vs the laws and rules of my state and I could have consequences for doing such if I get caught and prosecuted as such.
I have also recorded movies off of television or HBO instead of going out and buying the damn thing. I have burned rented movies for myself. Is that "cheating" at life too because poor little you always pay hard earned cash for every movie that you ever acquired?
If it's "cheating" to buy Wow gold off of ebay a couple of times as I have done, then I guess that I cheat at life here in our real world all the time. But I disagree. Breaking some law or rule is not "cheating". It is just that.. breaking a rule or agreement and risking whatever consequences might come along with it. You can do it. You can buy gold too and take that same risk. You can speed on your freeways and take that risk. Neither one is cheating.
When anyone says buying gold in an mmo is "Cheating", what they are really saying is "Waaa!" I don't buy gold (for whatever reason) and I have to grind or work for 500 hours to get the same gold you just bought and acquired in the game in 5 minutes! Waaaa! Not fair! Not fair! I don't care that you used your hard earned real world money for it to save yourself some grinding time in this game! It's just not fair!! Waaaa! Not fair! You big cheater you!". That's really what it boils down to if you want to be totally honest.
Again, I say as long as you purchase gold and the transfer used the games own mechanics to do so without hacking or using a 3rd party hacking program, then it is not "cheating" it is simply breaking the user agreement and/or the EULA. Cheating as I would define it would be hacking the game somehow to create an unfair or undesigned feature such as infinite health or infinite Armor level, whatever.
Comments
Well a good reason or a bad excuse is just a matter of opinions. For me the most important part of playing a game is having fun, if you end up in some mindless grind, which you dont enjoy, but it needs to be done to get to the parts of the game you "do" enjoy.. in such a situation I can understand people buying money, I've done it myself once. I think its very nice for you you have a different opinion, and I'm sad for you it's making you mark people who buy money as "losers" and people who "need to learn to play" I would say try to relativate, but if you wont I wouldn't care less.
Oh and btw, I think people should decide for themselves whether or not a game "is for them", they dont need to hear that from you or me unless they ask for that.
Why? Because it raises expectations. In an environment with frequent gold buying the average equipment level that people bring to a party will be higher. In order to be competitve non gold buyers will have to grind more. In order to maintain their advantage (or as the gold buyers see it, to make up for their time poverty), gold buyers are then forced to spend even more and a vicious cycle is created.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
In general, that is true.
But: If you KNOW that MMORPGs are extremely time consuming, AND you don't have much time to play, then it's pretty obvious that you should consider something else than a MMORPG.
In general, that is true.
But: If you KNOW that MMORPGs are extremely time consuming, AND you don't have much time to play, then it's pretty obvious that you should consider something else than a MMORPG.
I think that shouldn't be an issue, there is no man with a gun on your head telling you you should finish the game or reach a certain goal or level within game before a certain set time or date.
Just as long as the peiods of time you actually can play the game are fun, and ok, if you're in a situation can play like 2 hrs a week (and the situation isnt likely to change) a mmorpg doesnt seem like a logical choice for a game but hey who am I to deny it to people if they want to play it, by all means go and play it.
The only part I really dislike about "goldbuying" is a mmorpg filled with money grinding bots, and that's a huge problem imo. But I'm not so sure who is to be blamed for that, you could say it's the players who bought the gold which influenced the amount of goldseller, but you could also say its a fault in the game design.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Yup, in case you buy ingame currency to buy equipment and if good equipment can be bought with ingame currency this is likely to be true. I don't think that buying ingame currency is solving game issues, but I can imagine it can solve certain issues for a player in a certain situation.
(However, when I replied to this topic I had ingame currency buying to overcome a certain "spoiling the game for you obstacle" in mind, I think buying ingame currency to gain an advantage over other players is a different story indeed)
Can they define cheating in such a way that it both allows their own activities and forbids things such as hacking?
What's the matter? Are your fingers paralyzed by guilt?
Or do they admit it? Gold buyers are cheats.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I will gladly accept your challenge and to your challenge I will offer you that buying gold for any online game is NOT "cheating".
Lets use World of Warcraft as our example. The World of Warcraft game has a simple and easy mechanism that is used for sending other players goods or money. Using this method of gold transportation is obviously perfectly legal in the game. I can use it to send any one of my own characters on my own account gold. Perfectly legal and uses the games own mechanics to make that transfer.
Now we come to the point where I actually "buy" gold from another party. I pay them my own money to pay them for their time that it took them to acquire that gold and send my avatar that gold using the same legal transfer mechanics I mentioned above in World of Warcraft. And this is the point at which I assume that you will fire back that I am cheating.
To this, I will respond to you... Okay I paid another party to send that gold to me. What if that other party was my little brother who has an avatar on the very same account as myself and I simply said to him "hey bro, hook me up with 200 of your gold and I'll give you the $20 you need to buy that new skateboard you've been wanting." He delightfully agrees, needed the money to buy something that he really wants, and I am pleased that I don't have to spend all that time grinding my avatar for that gold in the game. Now I have enough gold to buy my epic mount, lets say. The transfer of that gold is between two different avatars in the game. This is perfectly legal. Blizzard certainly doesn't know that I paid my brother $20 to buy that gold and my brother didn't go in some magazine or on some billboard using the World of Warcraft name without permission to advertise such a price on WOW gold. But under your own words Antipathy, you would accuse me of cheating. I PAID for the gold. But what if my brother simply said "no way bro" when I asked to pay him for his gold, and told me that I already paid for the game and the monthly fee and he simply logged in and sent the gold to me without me paying him real world cash. Now I suppose that somehow I'm NOT "cheating"??
I've answered your call with a very plausible situation that is not only believable, but I've seen it actually happen. Explain to me how in my two examples in the paragraph above that one (I paid my brother $20) is cheating and one (My brother gives me the 200 gold free) isn't cheating and how that makes any sense when the exact same mechanics and process is used in both situations and I will be more then happy to further debate this with you.
- Zaxx
However, the purpose of cheating in a competitive activity is usually to obtain an advantage over the competitors. As for whether or not gold buying provides an unfair advantage over ALL others player is not so easily declared. Theoretically I could get, through whatever means, my guildies to give me their time and resources to further my character.
Are you going to argue that they accepted my money under duress?
If you don't agree with how I use my game. Don't sell it to me.
Find someone else to sell it to or don't sell it at all.
Illegal. As in a criminal offence.
Fraudulent. Specifically False Advertising. Not sold as advertised. All flaws and stipulations not clearly marked on the box or brought to your attention in advance of sale.
This is a civil offence in the U.S., but in here in the EU, it is a crime. Criminal. An imprisonable offence. You can all the police and demand an arrest.
If the game was setup in such a way that the casual player could play with equal footing with the full time players then there would not be a market for RMT. However developers cannot seem to come up with ideas for involving game play that do not involve the virtual materialism of gear-chasing. Adding in side-dish PvP to an aggressive PvE model only makes matters worse. Now you have direct competition between other players where their equipment leads to numerical advantages.
Game developers know this. That is why they will only take a mild stance against RMT. They know that it is an inevitable consequence of their game design and will apply some pressure against it through EULAs and banning blatant offenders.
We all know that these activities are against the Terms of Service of the various games, and therefore by definition are "unpermitted" under thos TOS's. You're asking people to justify how something that is "umpermitted" really isn't -- kind of a silly question, really. Of course the gold buying is not allowed per the rules. The real question is whether is should be permitted or not, and that's where you're getting your answers.
To me, I don't think it should be illegal. It's a time versus money issue, plain and simple, and it makes good business sense to make the game's fun available to more people. The problem is that in the West we don't like this, we are annoyed that there are already so many unequal playing fields in life (e.g., the guy who drives the mercedes, when I am in a Toyota, the guy with the $1.5m mansion while I am in a condo, etc.), that we don't want these unequal playing fields replicated in games. To that I say: get over it. As long as there are people with more money than time to play these games and the games allow players to cut through that time element with currency, there will be a vibrant market for this kind of service, and it can't be practically stopped. It's no more "cheating" than the person who is being "unfair" because he is a student/independently wealthy/retired, and has oodles of time on his hands to play and uses that time to play -- it is totally unfair that these life situations that allow people more time to play are permitted to give these people an advantage in levelling their characters, acquiring items and the like, and the gold selling business is levelling the playing field against folks who are time rich (and perhaps cash poor) by allowing those who are time poor (and perhaps cash rich) to trade their time for cash. It's a simple issue of time vs. money, and there's no way you can ever change that.
I concur. I gace my mate 5,000 gold the other day. I've given loads of my mates gold. Is this cheating?
No.
It's part of the game. the game is built with this transaction specifically in mind.
If down the pub, that same mate goes, "hey Baff thanks so much for the gold, allow me to buy you a beer", does he suddenly become a cheat because the gold he has gained has now been paid for?
Of course not. The act of paying for that gold makes no difference to the advantage he has gained.
here are the points Ive read and heres how I see them;
1. Buying gold is ok because I dont have time to play. "This is a poor excuse since buying gold does nothing for the level of your character and would only be used to make your toon more LEET than the next guy. they sell Lvling services and one could argue that this service is more of what you need than gold purchases."
2. Im just using game mechanics and who cares where I get my gold from (the little broither theory). "This one is such a gray line. While you could agree that paying a friend for some gold is similar to buying it from a farmer there are some major differences. Such as the Farmer will use hyper-inflation to make more gold/ hack accounts to steal it/ use cons in-game to take it./ farm mobs creating a disruption. Your friend/brother played the game as was intended and ended up with a surplus that was shared and you were nice enough to pay him. (I think I have a way to explain this: Me and a frined go to a bar, he buys me a beer so I agree to pay him back later. This does not make him a buisness nor a bartender. The beer still got to me but it was the means that makes the difference. The bar makes money doing it and needs to be liscenced, pay taxes, obey rules. My buddy selling me a beer so to speak doesnt.)
3. Its not cheating, Its game mechanics. "THis is such a weak excuse used over and over. All haxxs ever used in-game were game mechanics. All cheats ever used in-game were game mechanics. They are there until the y get fixed. Doesnt make the right, doesnt make them not-cheats."
There is a judgement call we all need to make when it comes to these things and I could care less if you want to spend your Hard earned money on gold but at least admit your cheating. Yeah its a dirty word and if it scares you then dont do it. Really though, Im sure everyone has cheated before in one game or another. The sooner people admit it, the sooner we can come to solutions for the problems. Or not.
SWEET.
Yet ANOTHER thread about the legal implications of the EULA made by a hundred people who know NOTHING about legal implications.
My challenge was to come up with a definiton of cheating. You have not done so.
It's always possible to come up with marginal cases that attempt to undermine any definition of fair behaviour. But surely the conclusion cannot be that there is no such thing as cheating which is where your argument appears to lead! Or do you reject any concept of cheating and of moral / immoral behaviour?Most moral systems of behaviour base their conclusions on the effects that actions have on others. A single small transfer between syblings doesn't appear to represent much harm (whether the gold is paid for or not). But supporting a large scale industry which undermines the economy of MMOs, creates unrealistic equipment expectations and in some games ruins questing areas due to the density of farmers clearly harms other people. Hence I would view it as immoral.
I have offered a definiton of cheating in an earlier thread. I haven't got it to hand but it went something like:
A behaviour is cheating if it is:
a) Forbidden by rules created by the game manufacturer
and also
b) Rejected by a substantial portion of the games community.
Your turn.
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The problem is that it provides an unfair advantage over SOME other players.
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The legal issue which has not to my knowledge been tested significantly in appellate litigation is whether consumer protection type laws limit what a company can put in its EULA/TOS -- that's really the issue here --. i.e., whether the EULA/TOS themselves are legal under consumer protection laws. There isn't a lot of caselaw about that in the US at least.
No? Then it is not illegal.
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You have not dealt with my counterexample. How is your "Time vs money" justfication morally different from a hacker using a "Time v Computer ability" justification. And if you think it is permissible to buy gold to obtain an uber weapon which would normally take weeks to grind for then then how would you feel about someone else hacking into the server and giving himself and his mates a copy of this weapon? For both use abilities outside the game to obtain items that are not obtained within the rules or mechanics of the game.
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Because I happen to believe that the world would be a better place if more than just incredibly highly paid lawyers have a basic understanding of the law and could talk about precisely what is and is not permitted.
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It IS NOT "cheating".
It may very well be against the EULA and the user agreements. That's breaking the policy rules and risking consequential bans or suspensions or whatever in the game. But it isn't cheating. Especially when the games own mechanics allow for such transfers easily and freely.
To say whether or not such actions are "cheating", I think that it is first important that we define the actual word cheating and how cheating would apply to an mmorpg.
I would have to say that cheating in an mmorpg would be to hack or use a loophole or a 3rd party program (hacking) that gives one an unfair advantage in the game. Such as a speedhack. Or hacking the game so that your avatar has infinite health or so that he never takes damage. THAT would be cheating. It would obviously be thwarting the games mechanics or changing them beyond how they were originally coded to give oneself a totally unfair advantage.
But transfering gold using already in place game mechanics that allow such transfers without hacks and 3rd party programs is not "cheating". Why? because ANYONE CAN DO IT USING THE GAMES OWN BUILT IN MECHANICS. If I do it, and take any risks unvolved in the EULA and/or user agreements and I take a risk, however small, of getting my account banned or suspended or Blizzard taking me to court and suing me for $250,000 and putting me in prison for 5 years, blah, blah, blah. I take that risk, knowing without a doubt I will very likely suffer ZERO consequences because the game company ain't gonna do shit to me. So I take that BS risk and buy some gold off of ebay. Me and the Seller of the gold use the gmes own built in mechanics to transfer that gold, the same as my bother did for me in my previous post. Same exact thing. Same exact process.
I'm simply breaking a rule in the user agreement. It isn't cheating. You can do it too.
I also speed on my freeways by 5-10 mph typically. Am I "cheating" here in our real world instead of the virtual world by speeding too? No, I'm taking a risk vs the laws and rules of my state and I could have consequences for doing such if I get caught and prosecuted as such.
I have also recorded movies off of television or HBO instead of going out and buying the damn thing. I have burned rented movies for myself. Is that "cheating" at life too because poor little you always pay hard earned cash for every movie that you ever acquired?
If it's "cheating" to buy Wow gold off of ebay a couple of times as I have done, then I guess that I cheat at life here in our real world all the time. But I disagree. Breaking some law or rule is not "cheating". It is just that.. breaking a rule or agreement and risking whatever consequences might come along with it. You can do it. You can buy gold too and take that same risk. You can speed on your freeways and take that risk. Neither one is cheating.
When anyone says buying gold in an mmo is "Cheating", what they are really saying is "Waaa!" I don't buy gold (for whatever reason) and I have to grind or work for 500 hours to get the same gold you just bought and acquired in the game in 5 minutes! Waaaa! Not fair! Not fair! I don't care that you used your hard earned real world money for it to save yourself some grinding time in this game! It's just not fair!! Waaaa! Not fair! You big cheater you!". That's really what it boils down to if you want to be totally honest.
Again, I say as long as you purchase gold and the transfer used the games own mechanics to do so without hacking or using a 3rd party hacking program, then it is not "cheating" it is simply breaking the user agreement and/or the EULA. Cheating as I would define it would be hacking the game somehow to create an unfair or undesigned feature such as infinite health or infinite Armor level, whatever.
- Zaxx