You have not dealt with my counterexample. How is your "Time vs money" justfication morally different from a hacker using a "Time v Computer ability" justification. And if you think it is permissible to buy gold to obtain an uber weapon which would normally take weeks to grind for then then how would you feel about someone else hacking into the server and giving himself and his mates a copy of this weapon? For both use abilities outside the game to obtain items that are not obtained within the rules or mechanics of the game.
Is it cheating at life to hire someone to clean my house because while I would like it to be clean, I would rather not clean it myself, preferring to spend my free time doing other things? That's the calculus players are making when they are buying gold -- it's the exact same calculus, and it isn't a "moral" one, however much you are trying to spin it otherwise. It's a resource allocation calculus, nothing more, nothing less. The game-maker's rules, which may or may not be legally enforceable, are in any case not a benchmark for something as loftily-phrased as "morality".
The difference between buying currency and hacking is that buying currency does not involve any alteration of the game software -- it actually uses the game mechanics as they are designed to be used: namely one character is out there farming away and making money, and then transferring it to another one. No alteration of game mechanics whatsoever there -- very much unlike hacking. So, it was a nice try at a comparison, but to be honest it fails.
The difference between buying currency and hacking is that buying currency does not involve any alteration of the game software -- it actually uses the game mechanics as they are designed to be used: namely one character is out there farming away and making money, and then transferring it to another one. No alteration of game mechanics whatsoever there -- very much unlike hacking. So, it was a nice try at a comparison, but to be honest it fails.
Actually there are plenty of forms of hacking which don't involve altering game mechanics. Such as social hacking. For example suppose I contacted the Blizzard help desk, pretended to be you, provided some fake id and got them to reset your password. If I then went into your account and transferred your gold to my own character then would that not be perfectly permissable according to your rules? For no game mechanics were altered.
I want to get in on this one: here are the points Ive read and heres how I see them; 1. Buying gold is ok because I dont have time to play. "This is a poor excuse since buying gold does nothing for the level of your character and would only be used to make your toon more LEET than the next guy. they sell Lvling services and one could argue that this service is more of what you need than gold purchases." 2. Im just using game mechanics and who cares where I get my gold from (the little broither theory). "This one is such a gray line. While you could agree that paying a friend for some gold is similar to buying it from a farmer there are some major differences. Such as the Farmer will use hyper-inflation to make more gold/ hack accounts to steal it/ use cons in-game to take it./ farm mobs creating a disruption. Your friend/brother played the game as was intended and ended up with a surplus that was shared and you were nice enough to pay him. (I think I have a way to explain this: Me and a frined go to a bar, he buys me a beer so I agree to pay him back later. This does not make him a buisness nor a bartender. The beer still got to me but it was the means that makes the difference. The bar makes money doing it and needs to be liscenced, pay taxes, obey rules. My buddy selling me a beer so to speak doesnt.) 3. Its not cheating, Its game mechanics. "THis is such a weak excuse used over and over. All haxxs ever used in-game were game mechanics. All cheats ever used in-game were game mechanics. They are there until the y get fixed. Doesnt make the right, doesnt make them not-cheats." There is a judgement call we all need to make when it comes to these things and I could care less if you want to spend your Hard earned money on gold but at least admit your cheating. Yeah its a dirty word and if it scares you then dont do it. Really though, Im sure everyone has cheated before in one game or another. The sooner people admit it, the sooner we can come to solutions for the problems. Or not.
But transfering gold using already in place game mechanics that allow such transfers without hacks and 3rd party programs is not "cheating". Why? because ANYONE CAN DO IT USING THE GAMES OWN BUILT IN MECHANICS.
- Zaxx
Uhm, someone sitting at a computer using a bot to farm gold is a type of third party program since it does not involve you. Secondly, In SWG there was the force crystal server line thingy. It was an in game Mechanic. I used it. Still a cheat if you ask anyone. The mail system in WoW for example, is not an excuse for anything. It was for mailing things. Doesnt matter what it was.
HAve I bought gold? no. Has my wife? yes, in many games. I still think its cheating.
I remember walking into arcades on a rainy day and watching kids dump quarters into Asteroids or Galaga hoping to get the high score. If I recall, some of the games let you play longer if you threw more mney into them, thus increasing your chances at obtaining eternal fame on the "high score" screen...at least until my buddy "accidently" unplugged it as a practical joke.
Honestly...it's just a friggin game. You can retort by saying, "yeah, but I pay for the game by subscribing, so it's more than that". Actually, it's still just a game, just as Gauntlet and Rampage were when you dumped your allowance and lawn-mowing money into them.
Have things become so competitive in this world that we have to "buy" our way to electronic fame? What ever happened to playing a game simply for the hell of it, and enjoying the challenge simply for challenge sake?
Instead of buying gaming "gold", take that money and dump it into your kids education...or maybe, if you're a kid, into your own education, instead of pissing it down a hole that will only provide you with very temporary, very imaginary success.
Originally posted by Antipathy So basically Zaxx your definiton of cheating is"What me and my mates do (gold buying) is fine but what other people (e.g. using speed hacks) is cheating".Are you able to come up with something a little more abstract than a defnition which has clearly been constructed specifically to suit your purpose?
Sheesh. I think I explained it very well. I also gave you MY definition of what cheating would be in an mmorpg and I don't think that ANYTHING you do as long as you use the games own mechanics to do so is cheating.
But see, thats where you and I obviously disagree.
You have failed so far to actually answer ANY of my questions. You haven't told me yet if buying gold from my brother is cheating. You have to tell me if him giving it to me is cheating. You have yet to answer my question of speeding on real world highways is cheating. You haven't answered anything I have proposed in my explanation of how buying gold is not cheating.
So let me ask you this then. I want you to answer this question...
Let's assume that me and you are playing WOW. We are dueling. Or maybe you are the Horde and I am an Alliance dude. We fight in the game. You cleanly beat my ass three times in a row. Now you fight me a fourth time and I absolutely obliterate you. Lets also assume that you are 3 levels higher then my guy. And after me losing horribly to you 3 times, the next fight while you are doing the exact same moves, I wipe you out. You would probably also scream out that I am "CHEATING!" Waaaaa! Not fair! Not fair! But let's assume all I have done is let my little brother play my guy for me and he knew exactly what hot bar move to use when. He certainly used the games own built in game mechanics to fight ya with my avatar. Have I cheated now? (Actually WOW is probably a bad example here because so little skill actually determines the winner.. or atleast a lot less skill determines the winner as opposed to say a PvP battle in Asherons Call for example) But you get my point.
And in further response to you still screaming that I am a cheater and all... I ask you to tell me how you aren't just crying and whining and calling anyone who buys gold a cheater cuz you actually have to earn it and you are just mad because it's just not fair to you that others gain in moments what takes you 100 hours or whatever.
I've answered your questions and your call for someone to say "buying gold isn't cheating". And I think I have explained my thought process and my reasoning well. Your question has nothing to do with the gold farmers in China and stuff. That's a whole different topic. You simply say that buying gold is cheating. Period. Now if you want to talk about gold farmers and how that applies to the games, then we can do that too. But that's a whole different ball of wax when it comes to moral and immoral behavior. And I'm sure that you and I will come to a much closer agreement in that topic of discussion.
I think there is no difference in a currency of a real world and a currency of a virtual world. In the real world you can exchange money using a rate (Dollars to Euros). A currency is always fixed to a locality. Dollars cannot be used in shops in Europe, you first have to convert it to Euros to do that. A virtual currency has the same property. You change dollars to WoW gold using a specific rate (supply vs demand) and you use the gold in its own locality which just happens to be a virtual world. When I buy an item, does it really matter where and how I spent the time to accumulate enough wealth to get that item ?
Correct me if I am wrong but: Even the EULAs of the MMOs just prohibit the selling of a virtual item because the ownership of said item lies with the MMO publisher/producer. A WoW gold piece is simply not mine to sell. On the other hand do the EULAs prohibit me selling ingame time to perform a service? I privately sell a bit of my time to help others out.
Cheating:
Cheating is when you do something to unbalance the system to your favour. Giving yourself money or a duplicate item is cheating because you do not loose the equivalent wealth in time or (virtual) money. In case of gold selling this is just not the case. I gain 50 gold, someone else looses 50 gold and someone had to farm those 50 gold in the first place. Nothing was created illegaly and balance has been kept.
Morality:
I think that most people are upset because working in real life will get you more money than working in a MMO. An engineer can easily get his 50$ an hour whereas a MMO farmer might only get his 5$ an hour. It is considered unfair that I can buy 10 hours worth of MMO wealth with my one hour work in real life. A lot of players do not want the "unfairness" of the real world imported into the virtual world and protest against currency trading.
Players want a closed environment where only your ingame efforts count. Rules and balance issues of the real life should stay out of the system and everyone should just happily game together. While it is understandable, the problem is that todays MMOs use time as its currency (time = money) while time is also currency of real life. The two worlds collide and the borders are destroyed. The game itself creates an exchange rate for its currency through NPC drop rates and upholdes the 'time is money' ideology. Its hypocrisy if the game producer at the same time tries to stop such trading.
One could ask: If I need time to get wealth both in RL and in an MMO, why is it not allowed for me to use my time as efficiently as possible to get a maximum of wealth ?
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The difference between buying currency and hacking is that buying currency does not involve any alteration of the game software -- it actually uses the game mechanics as they are designed to be used: namely one character is out there farming away and making money, and then transferring it to another one. No alteration of game mechanics whatsoever there -- very much unlike hacking. So, it was a nice try at a comparison, but to be honest it fails.
Actually there are plenty of forms of hacking which don't involve altering game mechanics. Such as social hacking. For example suppose I contacted the Blizzard help desk, pretended to be you, provided some fake id and got them to reset your password. If I then went into your account and transferred your gold to my own character then would that not be perfectly permissable according to your rules? For no game mechanics were altered.
By definition cheating is breaking the rules. If purchasing in game goods or services for real currency is against the rules then yes it is cheating.
However, the purpose of cheating in a competitive activity is usually to obtain an advantage over the competitors. As for whether or not gold buying provides an unfair advantage over ALL others player is not so easily declared. Theoretically I could get, through whatever means, my guildies to give me their time and resources to further my character.
Nice - you attempt to twist the topic in order to suit your purposes. No one claimed that buying gold provided an unfair advantage over ALL other players.
The problem is that it provides an unfair advantage over SOME other players.
But so does being unemployed.
If a dosser has 18 hours a day to play and a hard worker only 4, he has an unfair advantage over some other players.
In this case, the selling of gold can redress that imbalance.
This goes for all games not just wow. as for me i have never bought gold or in game items, or anything else of the sort. i believe that it ruins the game
I've bought gold a couple of times for a game but I don't anymore. Why? Because I don't care that much to spend my dolla bills on imaginary currency. After all it's just a game. For all of your accomplishments, PvP kills, and loot you can't physically touch any of it.
The difference between buying currency and hacking is that buying currency does not involve any alteration of the game software -- it actually uses the game mechanics as they are designed to be used: namely one character is out there farming away and making money, and then transferring it to another one. No alteration of game mechanics whatsoever there -- very much unlike hacking. So, it was a nice try at a comparison, but to be honest it fails.
Actually there are plenty of forms of hacking which don't involve altering game mechanics. Such as social hacking. For example suppose I contacted the Blizzard help desk, pretended to be you, provided some fake id and got them to reset your password. If I then went into your account and transferred your gold to my own character then would that not be perfectly permissable according to your rules? For no game mechanics were altered.
As others have pointed out, that is a different issue -- it's criminal impersonation and theft. It's also against the TOS, but that's beside the point -- even if it were permitted by the TOS it's still stealing and therefore a crime. So, again, not another great example, really.
I'm quite happy with gold buying being considered "cheating", by the way, but I also think being a no-lifer and having all the time in the world to play is also cheating -- I see time and money as convertible commodities and think more games should be designed to equalize for both of them to discourage "cheating" by either the time-rich or the money-rich.
I wasn't going to post on this seeing as how its really a violent topic but .... I might as well offer a perspective from a player thats bought gold and understands the implications and damages it does to the in game communities economy. And it quite frankly shames me that I did it and hence its the reason why I've never done it again.
Don't hold this against me and honestly this was years and years ago before it was deemed against the EULA of a game but I did buy gold once nearly 100,000 gold for Ultima online ( back when it was UO or EQ or DAOC and that was kinda it in good mmos to play). I had been playing Ultima online for whew off and on since its launch the economy established itself quickly and to be honest if you weren't able to stand there for hours on end to sell stuff your chances of owning a house or a boat were slim.
I wanted that house, I wanted a pretty and big house badly but I couldn't afford one, hell I couldn't afford a mount. For once I wanted to feel the power of having gold so...I shelled out around 20 bucks. It was great at first. I had everything I wanted and I didn't have to choke on the price infact I was willing to pay more than normal just to get that item over some other player's bid. In the long run buying gold killed the game for me. There was no reason for me to go out and do anything, why play the game I now have all the money and items I could ever really use.
By being able to afford what I wanted and being able to go absurbly no holds barred hurts the economy. For example an item that is really worth maybe 50 gold I'd pay 200 for just to have it. Thus anyone else selling it knew or believes they could get more for it. Its a chain reaction that over time shuts out players that aren't economically savvy on how to use auction house systems, shuts out players that don't raid, or whatever is the biggest money maker for a game's economy. It fuels the gold farmer markets. By giving them our business we effectively capsize the ship thats a steady growing economy on a server and it ups how much MORE grinding everyone has to do. It keeps you and everyone else from ever truely catching up.
I do believe gold buying is wrong, morally and its against the EULA. It is cheating because you now have an unfair advantage over a player that is actually playing the game and working through the level, quest, or money grind. Its cheating just like insider trading in the stock market is cheating. If its a punishable offense and your participating it is cheating and it is wrong and you deserve your account banned or atleast your gold wiped.
It might take longer to earn that gold if you dont' spend alot of time on(which I don't im a casual player, but I figured out how to make money I may not have as much as raiders but I got enough to compete) or you don't take the time to learn how to properly sell your items on an auction price (putting an item on sell for the recommended price and not seeing what its selling for via other sellers, or UNDER cutting the price that the ah recommends for an item hurts your bank account and everyone elses) but atleast you did it yourself.
It took me 3 or 4 more levels than some players that play constantly and were constantly in dungeons but I got my mount in WOW on my own. I've got some nice purple gear I afforded with taking my time and finding items that few people sell on the AH but plenty of people wanted. I wont say gold buyers are losers but I do believee they are taking the easy way out.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
This goes for all games not just wow. as for me i have never bought gold or in game items, or anything else of the sort. i believe that it ruins the game
I've bought gold a couple of times for a game but I don't anymore. Why? Because I don't care that much to spend my dolla bills on imaginary currency. After all it's just a game. For all of your accomplishments, PvP kills, and loot you can't physically touch any of it.
So you are saying that things that you can not physically touch do not have value? I wonder what all of those internet companys out there would reply. Ask google ...
When you buy a novel you are paying both for the paper and the time the author needed to create the story.
When you buy WoW you are not only buying a medium, a box and a manual but also a programm that you cannot physically touch.
In the end you are paying for entertainment. You pay more to have a higher level of entertainment. Its as easy as that. Grinding for hours to get your raid gear is for a lot of players no fun (no entertainment). Raiding with my friends is, so I pay to get around the grinding stuff. No cheating involved.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
This goes for all games not just wow. as for me i have never bought gold or in game items, or anything else of the sort. i believe that it ruins the game
I've bought gold a couple of times for a game but I don't anymore. Why? Because I don't care that much to spend my dolla bills on imaginary currency. After all it's just a game. For all of your accomplishments, PvP kills, and loot you can't physically touch any of it.
So you are saying that things that you can not physically touch do not have value? I wonder what all of those internet companys out there would reply. Ask google ...
When you buy a novel you are paying both for the paper and the time the author needed to create the story.
When you buy WoW you are not only buying a medium, a box and a manual but also a programm that you cannot physically touch.
In the end you are paying for entertainment. You pay more to have a higher level of entertainment. Its as easy as that. Grinding for hours to get your raid gear is for a lot of players no fun (no entertainment). Raiding with my friends is, so I pay to get around the grinding stuff. No cheating involved.
Online items for games only have value you because YOU give them value. If the game suddenly goes offline forever you've lost everything. All your money is poof. It is cheating or atleast WRONG because you flood the economy with that ill begotten money from some cheat or charlitan thus making it harder for yourself to ever stay kept up and everyone else that doesn't buy gold and casually plays to ever keep up or even catch up a tad.
When you buy gold you hurt everyone.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
This goes for all games not just wow. as for me i have never bought gold or in game items, or anything else of the sort. i believe that it ruins the game
I've bought gold a couple of times for a game but I don't anymore. Why? Because I don't care that much to spend my dolla bills on imaginary currency. After all it's just a game. For all of your accomplishments, PvP kills, and loot you can't physically touch any of it.
So you are saying that things that you can not physically touch do not have value? I wonder what all of those internet companys out there would reply. Ask google ...
When you buy a novel you are paying both for the paper and the time the author needed to create the story.
When you buy WoW you are not only buying a medium, a box and a manual but also a programm that you cannot physically touch.
In the end you are paying for entertainment. You pay more to have a higher level of entertainment. Its as easy as that. Grinding for hours to get your raid gear is for a lot of players no fun (no entertainment). Raiding with my friends is, so I pay to get around the grinding stuff. No cheating involved.
Online items for games only have value you because YOU give them value. If the game suddenly goes offline forever you've lost everything. All your money is poof. It is cheating or atleast WRONG because you flood the economy with that ill begotten money from some cheat or charlitan thus making it harder for yourself to ever stay kept up and everyone else that doesn't buy gold and casually plays to ever keep up or even catch up a tad.
When you buy gold you hurt everyone.
Real life items only have value because YOU give them value. If the world suddenly goes offline forever(global warming, USA lost their nuke security codes) you've lost everything. All your money is poof. It is cheating or atleast WRONG because you flood the economy with that ill begotten money from some extreme efficent working or charitan thus making it harder for yourself to ever stay kept up and everyone else that doesn't work and casually workers to ever keep up or even catch up a tad.
When you work you hurt everyone.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
This goes for all games not just wow. as for me i have never bought gold or in game items, or anything else of the sort. i believe that it ruins the game
I've bought gold a couple of times for a game but I don't anymore. Why? Because I don't care that much to spend my dolla bills on imaginary currency. After all it's just a game. For all of your accomplishments, PvP kills, and loot you can't physically touch any of it.
So you are saying that things that you can not physically touch do not have value? I wonder what all of those internet companys out there would reply. Ask google ...
When you buy a novel you are paying both for the paper and the time the author needed to create the story.
When you buy WoW you are not only buying a medium, a box and a manual but also a programm that you cannot physically touch.
In the end you are paying for entertainment. You pay more to have a higher level of entertainment. Its as easy as that. Grinding for hours to get your raid gear is for a lot of players no fun (no entertainment). Raiding with my friends is, so I pay to get around the grinding stuff. No cheating involved.If someone wants to spend their hard earned on virtual currency, then so be it. It's your choice, your money, and your time. For me I'd rather spend that money going out and meeting people, or going on vacation, having a beer, etc...
So basically Zaxx your definiton of cheating is "What me and my mates do (gold buying) is fine but what other people (e.g. using speed hacks) is cheating". Are you able to come up with something a little more abstract than a defnition which has clearly been constructed specifically to suit your purpose?
Sheesh. I think I explained it very well. I also gave you MY definition of what cheating would be in an mmorpg and I don't think that ANYTHING you do as long as you use the games own mechanics to do so is cheating.
But see, thats where you and I obviously disagree.
So anything permitted by the mechanics of a game environment isn't cheating. Suppose we are playing chess. You look away for a moment. I shift a few of the pieces around whilst you are gone. According to your definition this isn't cheating. After all there is nothing within the mechanics of a chessboard that prevents such behaviour. I find your definition to be a little odd.
You have failed so far to actually answer ANY of my questions. You haven't told me yet if buying gold from my brother is cheating. You have to tell me if him giving it to me is cheating. You have yet to answer my question of speeding on real world highways is cheating. You haven't answered anything I have proposed in my explanation of how buying gold is not cheating.
I'm sorry if you don't feel you've been given sufficient attention. You are not the only poster I've tried to reply to, and I only have limited time in between MMO playing. I have already agreed that your hypothetical situation with your brother is a marginal situation. I just think that it is more important to determine general principles before debating specific marginal cases, just as in legal terms it is reasonable to conclude that murder is wrong before deciding whether a particular case qualifies as murder, manslaughter or an unfortunate accident. Getting too involved in debates regarding your brother would distract us from the wider argument. As for speeding on real world highways, I'd say I would qualify it as cheating, as long as (a) it can be shown that it increases the risks experienced by other drivers and (b) a substantial proportion of drivers agree that speeding is wrong.
So let me ask you this then. I want you to answer this question...
The rest of your post amounts to little more than a character assassination where you attempt to depict me as a screaming child and has little to do with the debate. You are a long way from the truth.
hello! i would like to participate in this very packed thread!
even if i did buy ilegal currency or in-game items i wouldnt admit! but honestly i never buy stuff that is ilegal. theres some situations where buying currency and in-game items that is legal... example... silkroad online they sell items for real money which is legal. i have bought many times in silkroad! also theres archlord that sells stuff for real money legally.
btw... as i scan the thread and caught alfinnn aiming at someones english again lolz!! he sure knows more english than anyone else! "sarcastic"
I've never bought gold or items from any company and I don't think I ever will.
But if trading a item in real life (a very sweet bean bag chair) for some phat loot in game is considered bad, cheating, evil...well then yes, I am evil.
And yes, I did trade a bean bag chair (worth about $10 dollars) for about 1k gold on WoW.
Comments
Is it cheating at life to hire someone to clean my house because while I would like it to be clean, I would rather not clean it myself, preferring to spend my free time doing other things? That's the calculus players are making when they are buying gold -- it's the exact same calculus, and it isn't a "moral" one, however much you are trying to spin it otherwise. It's a resource allocation calculus, nothing more, nothing less. The game-maker's rules, which may or may not be legally enforceable, are in any case not a benchmark for something as loftily-phrased as "morality".
The difference between buying currency and hacking is that buying currency does not involve any alteration of the game software -- it actually uses the game mechanics as they are designed to be used: namely one character is out there farming away and making money, and then transferring it to another one. No alteration of game mechanics whatsoever there -- very much unlike hacking. So, it was a nice try at a comparison, but to be honest it fails.
"What me and my mates do (gold buying) is fine but what other people (e.g. using speed hacks) is cheating".
Are you able to come up with something a little more abstract than a defnition which has clearly been constructed specifically to suit your purpose?
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
But transfering gold using already in place game mechanics that allow such transfers without hacks and 3rd party programs is not "cheating". Why? because ANYONE CAN DO IT USING THE GAMES OWN BUILT IN MECHANICS.
- Zaxx
Uhm, someone sitting at a computer using a bot to farm gold is a type of third party program since it does not involve you. Secondly, In SWG there was the force crystal server line thingy. It was an in game Mechanic. I used it. Still a cheat if you ask anyone. The mail system in WoW for example, is not an excuse for anything. It was for mailing things. Doesnt matter what it was.HAve I bought gold? no. Has my wife? yes, in many games. I still think its cheating.
*yawn*
I must be getting old....er.
I remember walking into arcades on a rainy day and watching kids dump quarters into Asteroids or Galaga hoping to get the high score. If I recall, some of the games let you play longer if you threw more mney into them, thus increasing your chances at obtaining eternal fame on the "high score" screen...at least until my buddy "accidently" unplugged it as a practical joke.
Honestly...it's just a friggin game. You can retort by saying, "yeah, but I pay for the game by subscribing, so it's more than that". Actually, it's still just a game, just as Gauntlet and Rampage were when you dumped your allowance and lawn-mowing money into them.
Have things become so competitive in this world that we have to "buy" our way to electronic fame? What ever happened to playing a game simply for the hell of it, and enjoying the challenge simply for challenge sake?
Instead of buying gaming "gold", take that money and dump it into your kids education...or maybe, if you're a kid, into your own education, instead of pissing it down a hole that will only provide you with very temporary, very imaginary success.
Sheesh. I think I explained it very well. I also gave you MY definition of what cheating would be in an mmorpg and I don't think that ANYTHING you do as long as you use the games own mechanics to do so is cheating.
But see, thats where you and I obviously disagree.
You have failed so far to actually answer ANY of my questions. You haven't told me yet if buying gold from my brother is cheating. You have to tell me if him giving it to me is cheating. You have yet to answer my question of speeding on real world highways is cheating. You haven't answered anything I have proposed in my explanation of how buying gold is not cheating.
So let me ask you this then. I want you to answer this question...
Let's assume that me and you are playing WOW. We are dueling. Or maybe you are the Horde and I am an Alliance dude. We fight in the game. You cleanly beat my ass three times in a row. Now you fight me a fourth time and I absolutely obliterate you. Lets also assume that you are 3 levels higher then my guy. And after me losing horribly to you 3 times, the next fight while you are doing the exact same moves, I wipe you out. You would probably also scream out that I am "CHEATING!" Waaaaa! Not fair! Not fair! But let's assume all I have done is let my little brother play my guy for me and he knew exactly what hot bar move to use when. He certainly used the games own built in game mechanics to fight ya with my avatar. Have I cheated now? (Actually WOW is probably a bad example here because so little skill actually determines the winner.. or atleast a lot less skill determines the winner as opposed to say a PvP battle in Asherons Call for example) But you get my point.
And in further response to you still screaming that I am a cheater and all... I ask you to tell me how you aren't just crying and whining and calling anyone who buys gold a cheater cuz you actually have to earn it and you are just mad because it's just not fair to you that others gain in moments what takes you 100 hours or whatever.
I've answered your questions and your call for someone to say "buying gold isn't cheating". And I think I have explained my thought process and my reasoning well. Your question has nothing to do with the gold farmers in China and stuff. That's a whole different topic. You simply say that buying gold is cheating. Period. Now if you want to talk about gold farmers and how that applies to the games, then we can do that too. But that's a whole different ball of wax when it comes to moral and immoral behavior. And I'm sure that you and I will come to a much closer agreement in that topic of discussion.
- Zaxx
Correct me if I am wrong but: Even the EULAs of the MMOs just prohibit the selling of a virtual item because the ownership of said item lies with the MMO publisher/producer. A WoW gold piece is simply not mine to sell. On the other hand do the EULAs prohibit me selling ingame time to perform a service? I privately sell a bit of my time to help others out.
Cheating:
Cheating is when you do something to unbalance the system to your favour. Giving yourself money or a duplicate item is cheating because you do not loose the equivalent wealth in time or (virtual) money. In case of gold selling this is just not the case. I gain 50 gold, someone else looses 50 gold and someone had to farm those 50 gold in the first place. Nothing was created illegaly and balance has been kept.
Morality:
I think that most people are upset because working in real life will get you more money than working in a MMO. An engineer can easily get his 50$ an hour whereas a MMO farmer might only get his 5$ an hour. It is considered unfair that I can buy 10 hours worth of MMO wealth with my one hour work in real life. A lot of players do not want the "unfairness" of the real world imported into the virtual world and protest against currency trading.
Players want a closed environment where only your ingame efforts count. Rules and balance issues of the real life should stay out of the system and everyone should just happily game together. While it is understandable, the problem is that todays MMOs use time as its currency (time = money) while time is also currency of real life. The two worlds collide and the borders are destroyed. The game itself creates an exchange rate for its currency through NPC drop rates and upholdes the 'time is money' ideology. Its hypocrisy if the game producer at the same time tries to stop such trading.
One could ask: If I need time to get wealth both in RL and in an MMO, why is it not allowed for me to use my time as efficiently as possible to get a maximum of wealth ?
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
That wouldn't be cheating.
That would be theft. A criminal offence.
The problem is that it provides an unfair advantage over SOME other players.
But so does being unemployed.
If a dosser has 18 hours a day to play and a hard worker only 4, he has an unfair advantage over some other players.
In this case, the selling of gold can redress that imbalance.
Making it "Anti-cheat".
As others have pointed out, that is a different issue -- it's criminal impersonation and theft. It's also against the TOS, but that's beside the point -- even if it were permitted by the TOS it's still stealing and therefore a crime. So, again, not another great example, really.
I'm quite happy with gold buying being considered "cheating", by the way, but I also think being a no-lifer and having all the time in the world to play is also cheating -- I see time and money as convertible commodities and think more games should be designed to equalize for both of them to discourage "cheating" by either the time-rich or the money-rich.
I wasn't going to post on this seeing as how its really a violent topic but .... I might as well offer a perspective from a player thats bought gold and understands the implications and damages it does to the in game communities economy. And it quite frankly shames me that I did it and hence its the reason why I've never done it again.
Don't hold this against me and honestly this was years and years ago before it was deemed against the EULA of a game but I did buy gold once nearly 100,000 gold for Ultima online ( back when it was UO or EQ or DAOC and that was kinda it in good mmos to play). I had been playing Ultima online for whew off and on since its launch the economy established itself quickly and to be honest if you weren't able to stand there for hours on end to sell stuff your chances of owning a house or a boat were slim.
I wanted that house, I wanted a pretty and big house badly but I couldn't afford one, hell I couldn't afford a mount. For once I wanted to feel the power of having gold so...I shelled out around 20 bucks. It was great at first. I had everything I wanted and I didn't have to choke on the price infact I was willing to pay more than normal just to get that item over some other player's bid. In the long run buying gold killed the game for me. There was no reason for me to go out and do anything, why play the game I now have all the money and items I could ever really use.
By being able to afford what I wanted and being able to go absurbly no holds barred hurts the economy. For example an item that is really worth maybe 50 gold I'd pay 200 for just to have it. Thus anyone else selling it knew or believes they could get more for it. Its a chain reaction that over time shuts out players that aren't economically savvy on how to use auction house systems, shuts out players that don't raid, or whatever is the biggest money maker for a game's economy. It fuels the gold farmer markets. By giving them our business we effectively capsize the ship thats a steady growing economy on a server and it ups how much MORE grinding everyone has to do. It keeps you and everyone else from ever truely catching up.
I do believe gold buying is wrong, morally and its against the EULA. It is cheating because you now have an unfair advantage over a player that is actually playing the game and working through the level, quest, or money grind. Its cheating just like insider trading in the stock market is cheating. If its a punishable offense and your participating it is cheating and it is wrong and you deserve your account banned or atleast your gold wiped.
It might take longer to earn that gold if you dont' spend alot of time on(which I don't im a casual player, but I figured out how to make money I may not have as much as raiders but I got enough to compete) or you don't take the time to learn how to properly sell your items on an auction price (putting an item on sell for the recommended price and not seeing what its selling for via other sellers, or UNDER cutting the price that the ah recommends for an item hurts your bank account and everyone elses) but atleast you did it yourself.
It took me 3 or 4 more levels than some players that play constantly and were constantly in dungeons but I got my mount in WOW on my own. I've got some nice purple gear I afforded with taking my time and finding items that few people sell on the AH but plenty of people wanted. I wont say gold buyers are losers but I do believee they are taking the easy way out.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
So you are saying that things that you can not physically touch do not have value? I wonder what all of those internet companys out there would reply. Ask google ...
When you buy a novel you are paying both for the paper and the time the author needed to create the story.
When you buy WoW you are not only buying a medium, a box and a manual but also a programm that you cannot physically touch.
In the end you are paying for entertainment. You pay more to have a higher level of entertainment. Its as easy as that. Grinding for hours to get your raid gear is for a lot of players no fun (no entertainment). Raiding with my friends is, so I pay to get around the grinding stuff. No cheating involved.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
So you are saying that things that you can not physically touch do not have value? I wonder what all of those internet companys out there would reply. Ask google ...
When you buy a novel you are paying both for the paper and the time the author needed to create the story.
When you buy WoW you are not only buying a medium, a box and a manual but also a programm that you cannot physically touch.
In the end you are paying for entertainment. You pay more to have a higher level of entertainment. Its as easy as that. Grinding for hours to get your raid gear is for a lot of players no fun (no entertainment). Raiding with my friends is, so I pay to get around the grinding stuff. No cheating involved.
Online items for games only have value you because YOU give them value. If the game suddenly goes offline forever you've lost everything. All your money is poof. It is cheating or atleast WRONG because you flood the economy with that ill begotten money from some cheat or charlitan thus making it harder for yourself to ever stay kept up and everyone else that doesn't buy gold and casually plays to ever keep up or even catch up a tad.
When you buy gold you hurt everyone.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
So you are saying that things that you can not physically touch do not have value? I wonder what all of those internet companys out there would reply. Ask google ...
When you buy a novel you are paying both for the paper and the time the author needed to create the story.
When you buy WoW you are not only buying a medium, a box and a manual but also a programm that you cannot physically touch.
In the end you are paying for entertainment. You pay more to have a higher level of entertainment. Its as easy as that. Grinding for hours to get your raid gear is for a lot of players no fun (no entertainment). Raiding with my friends is, so I pay to get around the grinding stuff. No cheating involved.
Online items for games only have value you because YOU give them value. If the game suddenly goes offline forever you've lost everything. All your money is poof. It is cheating or atleast WRONG because you flood the economy with that ill begotten money from some cheat or charlitan thus making it harder for yourself to ever stay kept up and everyone else that doesn't buy gold and casually plays to ever keep up or even catch up a tad.
When you buy gold you hurt everyone.
Real life items only have value because YOU give them value. If the world suddenly goes offline forever(global warming, USA lost their nuke security codes) you've lost everything. All your money is poof. It is cheating or atleast WRONG because you flood the economy with that ill begotten money from some extreme efficent working or charitan thus making it harder for yourself to ever stay kept up and everyone else that doesn't work and casually workers to ever keep up or even catch up a tad.
When you work you hurt everyone.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
So you are saying that things that you can not physically touch do not have value? I wonder what all of those internet companys out there would reply. Ask google ...
When you buy a novel you are paying both for the paper and the time the author needed to create the story.
When you buy WoW you are not only buying a medium, a box and a manual but also a programm that you cannot physically touch.
In the end you are paying for entertainment. You pay more to have a higher level of entertainment. Its as easy as that. Grinding for hours to get your raid gear is for a lot of players no fun (no entertainment). Raiding with my friends is, so I pay to get around the grinding stuff. No cheating involved.If someone wants to spend their hard earned on virtual currency, then so be it. It's your choice, your money, and your time. For me I'd rather spend that money going out and meeting people, or going on vacation, having a beer, etc...
sorry for my trolling in the last post.
Please do answer me following questions:
Why is it cheating if I buy gold? (and please not the EULA crap. These rules are in the EULA just because of unreasonable people like you)
Who am I hurting by doing that and how?
@earthhawk
I agree fully.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Sheesh. I think I explained it very well. I also gave you MY definition of what cheating would be in an mmorpg and I don't think that ANYTHING you do as long as you use the games own mechanics to do so is cheating.
But see, thats where you and I obviously disagree.
So anything permitted by the mechanics of a game environment isn't cheating. Suppose we are playing chess. You look away for a moment. I shift a few of the pieces around whilst you are gone. According to your definition this isn't cheating. After all there is nothing within the mechanics of a chessboard that prevents such behaviour.
I find your definition to be a little odd.
I'm sorry if you don't feel you've been given sufficient attention. You are not the only poster I've tried to reply to, and I only have limited time in between MMO playing. I have already agreed that your hypothetical situation with your brother is a marginal situation. I just think that it is more important to determine general principles before debating specific marginal cases, just as in legal terms it is reasonable to conclude that murder is wrong before deciding whether a particular case qualifies as murder, manslaughter or an unfortunate accident. Getting too involved in debates regarding your brother would distract us from the wider argument.
As for speeding on real world highways, I'd say I would qualify it as cheating, as long as (a) it can be shown that it increases the risks experienced by other drivers and (b) a substantial proportion of drivers agree that speeding is wrong.
The rest of your post amounts to little more than a character assassination where you attempt to depict me as a screaming child and has little to do with the debate. You are a long way from the truth.
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hello! i would like to participate in this very packed thread!
even if i did buy ilegal currency or in-game items i wouldnt admit! but honestly i never buy stuff that is ilegal. theres some situations where buying currency and in-game items that is legal... example... silkroad online they sell items for real money which is legal. i have bought many times in silkroad! also theres archlord that sells stuff for real money legally.
btw... as i scan the thread and caught alfinnn aiming at someones english again lolz!! he sure knows more english than anyone else! "sarcastic"
But if trading a item in real life (a very sweet bean bag chair) for some phat loot in game is considered bad, cheating, evil...well then yes, I am evil.
And yes, I did trade a bean bag chair (worth about $10 dollars) for about 1k gold on WoW.