There will always be those without balls... whether it be a player; or another developer figuring out how he can make money off of the EverQuest/WoW crazes.
What you can do; as a developer with balls- is pick up an old idea; and improve upon it enough so that the ball-less are irrelevant by eliminating their annoyance potential with your impovements upon the formula without compromise of the principles.
Has anyone done it? Naw- no balls. They jumped on EverQuest and ran with it all the way to WoW; and what's looking like beyond WoW for years to come as well.
Doesn't really matter what i'd like to see. What matters is that 1) MMORPG developers grow balls. 2) People wake the fuck up and stop buying the same old rehashed shit so MMORPG developers are FORCED to grow balls. And 3) MMORPG.COM stop being a bunch of pandering whores to the MMORPG developers and fanboys of the sad state of present affairs- and also grow balls of their own; or at least be tolerant. Bastards.
Heh.
A) You do sound like the griefer that kills newbies 100 times over just to amuse yourself, while probably avoiding a challenging fight.
Won't ever happen till Darkfall is released. So basically - Never.
C) Since when was the original EQ an easy game compared, to say, WoW?
Doesn't really matter what i'd like to see. What matters is that 1) MMORPG developers grow balls. 2) People wake the fuck up and stop buying the same old rehashed shit so MMORPG developers are FORCED to grow balls. And 3) MMORPG.COM stop being a bunch of pandering whores to the MMORPG developers and fanboys of the sad state of present affairs- and also grow balls of their own; or at least be tolerant. Bastards.
Maybe you could grow a pair yourself and throw out some ideas.
Someone in the business needs to wake you zombies up so you can discover what MMORPG was SUPPOSED to be all about.
Like I said- I'll be waiting in suspended animation in a cryogenic freezer... because as we all know- if you keep buying this shit; they'll keep on making it... and no one in the industry has any balls. Not even fractions of a ball. You could take all of what game developers in MMORPG call balls; pool them together- and you wouldn't even have a ball big enough to make a mouse jealous. They don't have ball one... i guess would be the point of this part of the post.
UO was never anything like it was supposed to be. In fact the vast majority of the long time Ultima fans despised it due to the griefing and didnt end up playing long.
UO may have found a small audience, but it never succeeded in it goal of bringing the Ultima world to life and its probably one of the big reasons the once great Ultima franchise no longer exists. (EA thinking that Ulitma players wanted to jump and stuff is still the main reason.)
What you dont seem to get is that 97% of people play other things because 97% of people have no interest in playing a UO style game and insulting the games they do want to play isnt going to change this.
This has nothing to do with UO being more challenging, its because UO forced you into specific styles of play. If you want to give players freedom its essential that you dont let other players take that freedom away from them. Its only then that you can get a variety of gameplay options.
Actually I was primarily a miner and crafter who was generally on the receiving end of the griefing. Even after Trammel I still mined in Felucca. Did I get fuming mad when I lost a couple hours worth a work to a PK? Sure... but that was the fun you see- I made enemies; and got to swear revenge- and hunt them- and actually develop histories with people in the game good and bad; beyond who's turn it is to do X dungeon raid for the umpteenth time to get so and so their drop.
Was it perfect? No. Was it even great? No. Could it have been had the concept not been almost completely abandoned in MMORG's infancy? Absolutely.
Actually I was primarily a miner and crafter who was generally on the receiving end of the griefing. Even after Trammel I still mined in Felucca. Did I get fuming mad when I lost a couple hours worth a work to a PK? Sure... but that was the fun you see- I made enemies; and got to swear revenge- and hunt them- and actually develop histories with people in the game good and bad; beyond who's turn it is to do X dungeon raid for the umpteenth time to get so and so their drop. Was it perfect? No. Was it even great? No. Could it have been had the concept not been almost completely abandoned in MMORG's infancy? Absolutely.
Exactly it is like sky diving, you love it for the risk. And in a game where it is so hard to survive you hold onto the few friends you have.
It would be very nice if there was at least one other game that tried this system. Eq had a greater population but UO had alot of subscribers as well. At the very least it would offer a good niche of loyal fans.
What you don’t seem to get is that 97% of people play other things because 97% of people have no interest in playing a UO style game and insulting the games they do want to play isn’t going to change this.
Pfft. I'd be willing to falaciously say 97% of MMORPG slaves today don't know what the fuck Ultima Online is- but I can faithfully say whatever the real figure is it can't be too far off. How many times over has the total market grown in size since shortly after the release of EverQuest? That's how many people don't know what UO is or what's about it- and I can tell you that's a solid majority without even zipping over to mmorpgchart.com.
In summary. There have been only a few wildly successful open PvP games that left an unimaginable amount of room for improvement upon the formula. A formula that would make it more comfortable for everyone without compromising upon the very simple open-pvp principle; and without segregating the community. Instead we've seen nearly 10 years of EverQuest clones that obviously leave people bored stupid.
First off, PvE games like Everquest are centered about teamwork, social interaction, long term planning and strategic thinking. These are skills that require much more intellectual capacity then your open PvP games.
The Everquest formula won out because it’s what people wanted. As soon as they had any option whatsoever they got as far away from your open PvP gameing so they could do the things *they* wanted to do rather then the things the other players allowed them to do.
So, at the end of the day the open PvP format *was* improved on. It was replaced with the superior formats of PvE and structured/limited PvP. The superior formats won, and whining and moaning isn’t going to bring an inferior/niche format back to the forefront.
Actually I was primarily a miner and crafter who was generally on the receiving end of the griefing. Even after Trammel I still mined in Felucca. Did I get fuming mad when I lost a couple hours worth a work to a PK? Sure... but that was the fun you see- I made enemies; and got to swear revenge- and hunt them- and actually develop histories with people in the game good and bad; beyond who's turn it is to do X dungeon raid for the umpteenth time to get so and so their drop. Was it perfect? No. Was it even great? No. Could it have been had the concept not been almost completely abandoned in MMORG's infancy? Absolutely.
Ok stop right there. Do you think for a second that people playing EverQuest didn't develop long lasting friends, didn't have history with other guilds? Instancing use to not exist, and while people couldn't kill each other, they could STEAL kill raid mobs which happened frequently. Through such tactics enemies were made. Playstyles may be different, but enemies and friends were made just the same, as well as memories.
I know you have nostalgia about your original MMO, several million people have the same "wish I could go back" attitude. I too feel jaded and disgusted that companys follow the money trail more than follow their hearts and minds. But there's really not much need to curse about it. Not going to change anything.
Me and my then friend from highschool got into UO together when it launched. We had an absolutely amazing time those first couple of years. One day though; I came over to find him playing EverQuest. The conversation went something like this:
Me: So is that the new MMORPG I've been hearing about?
Him: Yeah it's EverQuest.
Me: Uhm, so what do you do in it?
Him: Quests and stuff.
Me: Do you get to fight other people and loot them and stuff?
Him: Not really, no.
Me: So what's the fun of it?
Him: You can make friends; join a guild; and do group stuff.
Me: We can do that stuff in UO.
Him: Yeah, but EverQuest is simple. It's a lot easier to play.
Me: I see... (backing away absolutely horrified)
Not really much you can tell from a conversation about the experience of a game especially as UO and EQ are pretty different. Its much like talking to someone and hes playing a new racing game lets say Mario kart and the previous game you bothplayed was Gran Turismo then finding out there are cars in it and 'simpler' it therefore must not be worth playing.
Think you missed the point. He admitted all MMORPGs are today; EverQuest and beyond- just simplified, easy-mode versions of UO. There's as much point to playing them as there is watching Survivor or American Idol. It's mindless entertainment. What's also funny is how little the open PvP formula was improved upon. People gave up on it for the garbage they have today. This trash; this shit that takes up over 97% of the market today- doesn't do anyone a damn bit of good; all it does is make the MMO-PIMPS richer. Because you're either bored and going through these games like pairs of socks; playing more than one to make up for how dull they are; or constantly praying that something new comes out that will be "The One." Someone in the business needs to wake you zombies up so you can discover what MMORPG was SUPPOSED to be all about. Like I said- I'll be waiting in suspended animation in a cryogenic freezer... because as we all know- if you keep buying this shit; they'll keep on making it... and no one in the industry has any balls. Not even fractions of a ball. You could take all of what game developers in MMORPG call balls; pool them together- and you wouldn't even have a ball big enough to make a mouse jealous. They don't have ball one... i guess would be the point of this part of the post.
HOw little it has been improved upon? Well in ten years the growth in sales and revenue has gone up a couple orders of magnitude. IF that isn't success I would hate to see what you think success means. The industry has moved on . PK ganking and looting is a small part of the customer base and I don't foresee them getting into the majority.
The Everquest formula won out because it’s what people wanted.
Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.
With innovation and improvement upon the old archaic formula to the open PvP concept; I believe such a title would quickly and easily dwarf both EverQuest title's combined in terms of players; and rival or unseat WoW shortly there after. That's what I believe.
I think people only put up with this shit because that's all there was to be had for going on 10 years now; and most of them just have no idea what could have been.
Really it was less than 200,000 players in the beginning- bitter divisions amongst them; a close split- that shaped what has become a market for what- over 10 million people now?
In summary. There have been only a few wildly successful open PvP games that left an unimaginable amount of room for improvement upon the formula. A formula that would make it more comfortable for everyone without compromising upon the very simple open-pvp principle; and without segregating the community. Instead we've seen nearly 10 years of EverQuest clones that obviously leave people bored stupid.
First off, PvE games like Everquest are centered about teamwork, social interaction, long term planning and strategic thinking. These are skills that require much more intellectual capacity then your open PvP games.
The Everquest formula won out because it’s what people wanted. As soon as they had any option whatsoever they got as far away from your open PvP gameing so they could do the things *they* wanted to do rather then the things the other players allowed them to do.
So, at the end of the day the open PvP format *was* improved on. It was replaced with the superior formats of PvE and structured/limited PvP. The superior formats won, and whining and moaning isn’t going to bring an inferior/niche format back to the forefront.
Sorry but I disagree here. If everyone hates open pvp how come there are so many people who play all out pvp multiplayers? Why are there more open pvp servers on games that have population? And why are there fans, like myself, who are asking for a new/old system?
As I said allot more people like pve but there are some people who like the all out pvp style. And personaly I am not asking for a huge mmo company to go for this system, it is a niche game. But there are so many niche games out already why not make one for the pvpers?
...and while people couldn't kill each other, they could STEAL kill raid mobs which happened frequently. Through such tactics enemies were made.
Mmm hmmm- and then what'd did you do once you had this enemy? Taunt them by saying I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!
?
I eventually tried these faggy pointless MMORPGs- I did. Couldn't stand them.
What you don’t seem to get is that 97% of people play other things because 97% of people have no interest in playing a UO style game and insulting the games they do want to play isn’t going to change this.
Pfft. I'd be willing to falaciously say 97% of MMORPG slaves today don't know what the fuck Ultima Online is- but I can faithfully say whatever the real figure is it can't be too far off. How many times over has the total market grown in size since shortly after the release of EverQuest? That's how many people don't know what UO is or what's about it- and I can tell you that's a solid majority without even zipping over to mmorpgchart.com.
Irrelevant. Even among the people who played UO most didn’t care for the open PvP format, and played despite it because there was no other choice. When there was a choice they got out of UO and into Everquest as fast as their pocket books would allow, and even those that stayed in UO stayed away from the open PvP zones.
There is no evidence that player taste has changed at all since the UO player base jumped ship to get away from the open PvP you want to see. Every game that attempted unrestricted PvP since then has failed utterly and even the restricted PvP in WoW had to be reworked to keep the player base happy.
Now, I’m not adverse to seeing an open PvP game, in fact the more variety the better IMO. I just think it’s unlikely that you are going to see a true open PvP game survive long. What I do object to is clueless open PvP fans going around insulting everyone else when the real problem their own inability to build a decent game and community.
Perhaps this is simply the anti-social mindset of the people who want this style of game. Fans of both PvE and more structured restricted PvP games like DAoC and EVE can build communities to their own liking within a game, but the so called “open PvP’er” really only thrives when they are allowed to exist as a parasite on a community built by other types of players.
Yeah- that's another thing people don't get. If you look at 2,000 year old games like Chess- and the like- they are all PvP. Throughout time mankind has endeared a form of gaming that allows them to battle an opponent; risk pride or money- and win or lose.
Where are all the old games that encourage people to work together to defeat an imaginary opponent so everybody wins?
Guess that's why I never liked MMORPGs all this- because every game is supposed to have a winner and a loser- right? Ancient saying.
Then the 90's roll in; and every kid is brought up to believe he is special- and boom EverQuest comes along- hey everybody! Nobody loses! Everybody wins! Yay!
There is no evidence that player taste has changed at all since the UO player base jumped ship to get away from the open PvP you want to see. Every game that attempted unrestricted PvP since then has failed utterly and even the restricted PvP in WoW had to be reworked to keep the player base happy.
EvE. Done talking to you- you're full of shit. You probably weren't even there asshole. (in UO before the split- watching the arguments back and forth on the stratics boards- it looked like a pretty even fucking division amongst the community to me dildo.)
Sorry but I disagree here. If everyone hates open pvp how come there are so many people who play all out pvp multiplayers? Why are there more open pvp servers on games that have population? And why are there fans, like myself, who are asking for a new/old system? As I said allot more people like pve but there are some people who like the all out pvp style. And personaly I am not asking for a huge mmo company to go for this system, it is a niche game. But there are so many niche games out already why not make one for the pvpers?
Presumably you mean online FPS or RTS games
First, most people who play PVP shooters do so exclusively with friends. The nature of a shared world doesn’t allow for this.
Second, these games don’t have a persistent world so nothing that happens matters beyond the next few min.
Thirdly there is only one type of play in these games. A good MMO allows a myriad of options to suit the taste of a wide variety of players, something that doesn’t really work if you allow one player to force themselves on everyone else. This is why games with PvP restrictions can succeed while fully open games fail.
Think it depends on the format of the pvp. Pvp is a big thing, something like the majority of servers in WoW is pvp(might be wrong on this), fps games are very common, Guild Wars is popular. People do want to play versus others, people do want to kill or be killed but there needs to be some sort of limitations perhaps.
Irrelevant. Even among the people who played UO most didn’t care for the open PvP format, and played despite it because there was no other choice. When there was a choice they got out of UO and into Everquest as fast as their pocket books would allow, and even those that stayed in UO stayed away from the open PvP zones.
There is no evidence that player taste has changed at all since the UO player base jumped ship to get away from the open PvP you want to see. Every game that attempted unrestricted PvP since then has failed utterly and even the restricted PvP in WoW had to be reworked to keep the player base happy.
Now, I’m not adverse to seeing an open PvP game, in fact the more variety the better IMO. I just think it’s unlikely that you are going to see a true open PvP game survive long. What I do object to is clueless open PvP fans going around insulting everyone else when the real problem their own inability to build a decent game and community.
Perhaps this is simply the anti-social mindset of the people who want this style of game. Fans of both PvE and more structured restricted PvP games like DAoC and EVE can build communities to their own liking within a game, but the so called “open PvP’er” really only thrives when they are allowed to exist as a parasite on a community built by other types of players.
Please do not call open pvp'ers "parasites" or "Anti-social". Some are but some pve'ers are as well. And I support structured pvp for games, as you said variety is good. But I miss game servers like Mordred where there was at least an option for open pvp. And I miss UO even more.
But beyond that there has been a huge fan responce for darkfall. If the game ever comes out it does have a fairly loyal fan base there to support it. Again it will not be the next WoW; it won't be the highest population game. But it will have enough people to keep it going. I stand by with all the other niche games out why not an open pvp one?
Again the point is: what can be crafted as a world design that doesn't fall flat on its face?
I think it's important to be clear about definitions as well, for purposes of the discussion. People are using the term "open PvP" to mean different things.
To me, "open PvP" means anyone can be attached virtually anywhere outside towns and a small newbie area, and their corpses can be looted for items, cash and inventory, and full death penalties for dying (exp loss, clone loss, etc.).
"Modified open PvP" means the same as "open PvP", but without looting or death penalties, or where there are significant restrictions or consequences to PvPing in substantial areas of the game.
I think that the market for "open PvP" as I have defined it here is very small, while the market for "modified open PvP" is significantly larger because while it permits nonconsensual PvP, it mitigates the consequences. Both markets are smaller than the non-PvP market, but to be honest the "open PvP" per my definition is really the smallest market. Every game that featured it has fallen flat on its face. So the question goes over to you advocates of it: what design would work so that the game doesn't fall flat on its face? I don't think that the Devs know, and I think to a large degree they have given up on the issue due to all the failures, and have moved on to either no PvP worlds, RvR-PvP worlds, or "modified open PvP" worlds.
Oh and EVE is "modified open PvP" because there are significant consequences (negative ones) for ganking people in much of the game space. EVE is only "open PvP" in 0.0, and if you open the map and look to see how many people are there compared with how many people are in the non-ganking space, well ... there you are with the number of people who really prefer "open PvP".
Comments
There will always be those without balls... whether it be a player; or another developer figuring out how he can make money off of the EverQuest/WoW crazes.
What you can do; as a developer with balls- is pick up an old idea; and improve upon it enough so that the ball-less are irrelevant by eliminating their annoyance potential with your impovements upon the formula without compromise of the principles.
Has anyone done it? Naw- no balls. They jumped on EverQuest and ran with it all the way to WoW; and what's looking like beyond WoW for years to come as well.
Heh.
A) You do sound like the griefer that kills newbies 100 times over just to amuse yourself, while probably avoiding a challenging fight.
C) Since when was the original EQ an easy game compared, to say, WoW?
UO was never anything like it was supposed to be. In fact the vast majority of the long time Ultima fans despised it due to the griefing and didnt end up playing long.
UO may have found a small audience, but it never succeeded in it goal of bringing the Ultima world to life and its probably one of the big reasons the once great Ultima franchise no longer exists. (EA thinking that Ulitma players wanted to jump and stuff is still the main reason.)
What you dont seem to get is that 97% of people play other things because 97% of people have no interest in playing a UO style game and insulting the games they do want to play isnt going to change this.
This has nothing to do with UO being more challenging, its because UO forced you into specific styles of play. If you want to give players freedom its essential that you dont let other players take that freedom away from them. Its only then that you can get a variety of gameplay options.
Actually I was primarily a miner and crafter who was generally on the receiving end of the griefing. Even after Trammel I still mined in Felucca. Did I get fuming mad when I lost a couple hours worth a work to a PK? Sure... but that was the fun you see- I made enemies; and got to swear revenge- and hunt them- and actually develop histories with people in the game good and bad; beyond who's turn it is to do X dungeon raid for the umpteenth time to get so and so their drop.
Was it perfect? No. Was it even great? No. Could it have been had the concept not been almost completely abandoned in MMORG's infancy? Absolutely.
All these "I'm bored...it's the game designers' fault" threads are so "me too."
Exactly it is like sky diving, you love it for the risk. And in a game where it is so hard to survive you hold onto the few friends you have.
It would be very nice if there was at least one other game that tried this system. Eq had a greater population but UO had alot of subscribers as well. At the very least it would offer a good niche of loyal fans.
Pfft. I'd be willing to falaciously say 97% of MMORPG slaves today don't know what the fuck Ultima Online is- but I can faithfully say whatever the real figure is it can't be too far off. How many times over has the total market grown in size since shortly after the release of EverQuest? That's how many people don't know what UO is or what's about it- and I can tell you that's a solid majority without even zipping over to mmorpgchart.com.
Ok stop right there. Do you think for a second that people playing EverQuest didn't develop long lasting friends, didn't have history with other guilds? Instancing use to not exist, and while people couldn't kill each other, they could STEAL kill raid mobs which happened frequently. Through such tactics enemies were made. Playstyles may be different, but enemies and friends were made just the same, as well as memories.
I know you have nostalgia about your original MMO, several million people have the same "wish I could go back" attitude. I too feel jaded and disgusted that companys follow the money trail more than follow their hearts and minds. But there's really not much need to curse about it. Not going to change anything.
Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.
With innovation and improvement upon the old archaic formula to the open PvP concept; I believe such a title would quickly and easily dwarf both EverQuest title's combined in terms of players; and rival or unseat WoW shortly there after. That's what I believe.
I think people only put up with this shit because that's all there was to be had for going on 10 years now; and most of them just have no idea what could have been.
Really it was less than 200,000 players in the beginning- bitter divisions amongst them; a close split- that shaped what has become a market for what- over 10 million people now?
It's total bullshit.
Sorry but I disagree here. If everyone hates open pvp how come there are so many people who play all out pvp multiplayers? Why are there more open pvp servers on games that have population? And why are there fans, like myself, who are asking for a new/old system?
As I said allot more people like pve but there are some people who like the all out pvp style. And personaly I am not asking for a huge mmo company to go for this system, it is a niche game. But there are so many niche games out already why not make one for the pvpers?
Mmm hmmm- and then what'd did you do once you had this enemy? Taunt them by saying I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!
?
I eventually tried these faggy pointless MMORPGs- I did. Couldn't stand them.
Pfft. I'd be willing to falaciously say 97% of MMORPG slaves today don't know what the fuck Ultima Online is- but I can faithfully say whatever the real figure is it can't be too far off. How many times over has the total market grown in size since shortly after the release of EverQuest? That's how many people don't know what UO is or what's about it- and I can tell you that's a solid majority without even zipping over to mmorpgchart.com.
Yeah- that's another thing people don't get. If you look at 2,000 year old games like Chess- and the like- they are all PvP. Throughout time mankind has endeared a form of gaming that allows them to battle an opponent; risk pride or money- and win or lose.
Where are all the old games that encourage people to work together to defeat an imaginary opponent so everybody wins?
Guess that's why I never liked MMORPGs all this- because every game is supposed to have a winner and a loser- right? Ancient saying.
Then the 90's roll in; and every kid is brought up to believe he is special- and boom EverQuest comes along- hey everybody! Nobody loses! Everybody wins! Yay!
Instant sappy success. Man...
EvE. Done talking to you- you're full of shit. You probably weren't even there asshole. (in UO before the split- watching the arguments back and forth on the stratics boards- it looked like a pretty even fucking division amongst the community to me dildo.)
Your interests != everyone's interests. You need to grow up.
Your interests != everyone's interests. You need to grow up.
Read the rest of that post I dare you. Naw- prolly makes too much sense for you to stand.
Think it depends on the format of the pvp. Pvp is a big thing, something like the majority of servers in WoW is pvp(might be wrong on this), fps games are very common, Guild Wars is popular. People do want to play versus others, people do want to kill or be killed but there needs to be some sort of limitations perhaps.
Please do not call open pvp'ers "parasites" or "Anti-social". Some are but some pve'ers are as well. And I support structured pvp for games, as you said variety is good. But I miss game servers like Mordred where there was at least an option for open pvp. And I miss UO even more.
But beyond that there has been a huge fan responce for darkfall. If the game ever comes out it does have a fairly loyal fan base there to support it. Again it will not be the next WoW; it won't be the highest population game. But it will have enough people to keep it going. I stand by with all the other niche games out why not an open pvp one?
I read the post. It's filled with your petulant grandstanding of "my view is the only view" claptrap. Congratulations on voicing your opinion.
I think it's important to be clear about definitions as well, for purposes of the discussion. People are using the term "open PvP" to mean different things.
To me, "open PvP" means anyone can be attached virtually anywhere outside towns and a small newbie area, and their corpses can be looted for items, cash and inventory, and full death penalties for dying (exp loss, clone loss, etc.).
"Modified open PvP" means the same as "open PvP", but without looting or death penalties, or where there are significant restrictions or consequences to PvPing in substantial areas of the game.
I think that the market for "open PvP" as I have defined it here is very small, while the market for "modified open PvP" is significantly larger because while it permits nonconsensual PvP, it mitigates the consequences. Both markets are smaller than the non-PvP market, but to be honest the "open PvP" per my definition is really the smallest market. Every game that featured it has fallen flat on its face. So the question goes over to you advocates of it: what design would work so that the game doesn't fall flat on its face? I don't think that the Devs know, and I think to a large degree they have given up on the issue due to all the failures, and have moved on to either no PvP worlds, RvR-PvP worlds, or "modified open PvP" worlds.
Oh and EVE is "modified open PvP" because there are significant consequences (negative ones) for ganking people in much of the game space. EVE is only "open PvP" in 0.0, and if you open the map and look to see how many people are there compared with how many people are in the non-ganking space, well ... there you are with the number of people who really prefer "open PvP".