Anyway you'll all see someday. 10 years is a literal fart in the grand scheme thing of things. All of this can and will be turned upside down the more it gets played out and dry like it is right now. Watch and wait friends. Then you'll see what it's like to get the short end of the stick for a decade.
Haha, as if PvE games will go away for a decade. Sheesh.
Oh they won't go away- they'll just become the minority and live in the shadows. All the WoW zombies and the people who are infants and toddlers in MMORPG will eventually realize what they have been missing out on in a refined open PvP environment and bail on the few of you original carebear clowns.
In the beginning of the split; there were a little less than 200,000 of us. Now there are over 10 million. 10 million bored gamers; hungry for something worth their time.
Yes i remember playing more than a month around moonglow just because there was no newbie state and every time i wanted to go a bit further i got my butt kicked (there was no feluca or trammel these days).
It was fun for people playing with 200 ping but i had no chance with my 750-800 (when i was lucky) since i was playing from europe. This kind of hard core PVP (call it what you like) was not designed to distinguish true PVP players from a bunch of people waiting hidden around corners in towns and dungeons to get your loot .
It had nothing to do with fun or challenge for some people. Actually for most people that wanted to do some crafting (or anything different than ranged combat) and did not want to spend all of their skill points into resisting spells, magery and crossbows. It was completely imbalanced and it's virtual economy become a total failure (too many characters per server).
Everquest actually helped the genre to evolve. From Ultima's pointless World to something that was a little more tuned ,had cooperative gameplay and fun.
i don't think that there has been a full PVP game that gave players equal opportunities to prevail.
I hope that darkfall will evolve the Genre. But it should first be released since i got sick of reading news about it and other upcoming online games that looked promising and finally turned into skill based first person shooters.
Posted elsewhere but seems fitting for this topic...
Is it me or have far too many MMORPGs taken the path of trying to please everyone at the expense of fun? Games that are by their very nature supposed to provide all the benefits of community and player interaction are actually having the ability for players to effect each other in any meaningful way removed. Too many MMORPGs are like we're all skipping through the daisies hand in hand singing la de la de la where everyones supposed to be happy, grinding for grindings sake in a never ending loop of dullness instead of the fun and drama that comes from mass wars, politics, PK, thrill of a fight and all the other non dull stuff that comes with the freedom for players to choose whether they want to play good or bad.
I don't want permadeath, full corpse looting, newbie ganking or anything silly but I also don't want to be wrapped in cotton wool in case somebody might do something naughty.
Me and my then friend from highschool got into UO together when it launched. We had an absolutely amazing time those first couple of years. One day though; I came over to find him playing EverQuest. The conversation went something like this: Me: So is that the new MMORPG I've been hearing about? Him: Yeah it's EverQuest. Me: Uhm, so what do you do in it? Him: Quests and stuff. Me: Do you get to fight other people and loot them and stuff? Him: Not really, no. Me: So what's the fun of it? Him: You can make friends; join a guild; and do group stuff. Me: We can do that stuff in UO. Him: Yeah, but EverQuest is simple. It's a lot easier to play. Me: I see... (backing away absolutely horrified) When's something genuninely GOOD going to happen with this genre? When are design principles and gameplay formulas going to EVOLVE? Someone wake me up when DarkFall comes out; i'll be in my cryogenic storage unit.
Originally posted by n25philly Originally posted by goneglockin Me and my then friend from highschool got into UO together when it launched. We had an absolutely amazing time those first couple of years. One day though; I came over to find him playing EverQuest. The conversation went something like this: Me: So is that the new MMORPG I've been hearing about? Him: Yeah it's EverQuest. Me: Uhm, so what do you do in it? Him: Quests and stuff. Me: Do you get to fight other people and loot them and stuff? Him: Not really, no. Me: So what's the fun of it? Him: You can make friends; join a guild; and do group stuff. Me: We can do that stuff in UO. Him: Yeah, but EverQuest is simple. It's a lot easier to play. Me: I see... (backing away absolutely horrified) When's something genuninely GOOD going to happen with this genre? When are design principles and gameplay formulas going to EVOLVE? Someone wake me up when DarkFall comes out; i'll be in my cryogenic storage unit.
You're idea of good is UO? Are you on drugs?
No, no. Everything he said is gospel truth, because he's called everyone that disagreed with him a faggot, or a dildo, or a dildo, faggot carebear, which means he wins.
It's also the reason that him, and those like him, will never, ever, get the game they want.
It's sad, really. I hope they do. Personally, I hope it features full looting, permadeath, and an animated *azzrape* emote. Just so I could have the pleasure of watching them run crying to the forums about how they logged in, and got treated like a prison bitch in the environment that they wanted so, so badly.
I will be there. I will create a guild, the Black Irish Brigade. A free roving mercenary band. We will have no city, no base, and nothing that you can take from us. Thanks to our international friends, and sleep disorders, we will operate 24/7. We have one, driving, single minded goal.
If we see you outside, we will kill you, and take everything you have. Go to the bank, and get new gear? We will take that too. Bring your friends? Great, more replacement gear for us. Hide in your city? We will burn it down around your ears.
You will never be safe, and you will never, ever succeed.
You say you want risk? You say you want the thrill of danger? We shall see, mon frere, we shall see.
Personally, I do hope Darkfall is released. I will be there. I will create a guild, the Black Irish Brigade. A free roving mercenary band. We will have no city, no base, and nothing that you can take from us. Thanks to our international friends, and sleep disorders, we will operate 24/7. We have one, driving, single minded goal. If we see you outside, we will kill you, and take everything you have. Go to the bank, and get new gear? We will take that too. Bring your friends? Great, more replacement gear for us. Hide in your city? We will burn it down around your ears. You will never be safe, and you will never, ever succeed.
You say you want risk? You say you want the thrill of danger? We shall see, mon frere, we shall see.
Doesn't really matter what i'd like to see. What matters is that 1) MMORPG developers grow balls. 2) People wake the fuck up and stop buying the same old rehashed shit so MMORPG developers are FORCED to grow balls. And 3) MMORPG.COM stop being a bunch of pandering whores to the MMORPG developers and fanboys of the sad state of present affairs- and also grow balls of their own; or at least be tolerant. Bastards.
This is the problem with the MMO community. We scream for new ideas and chastise developers for not having guts and coming up with something you want but you don't even know what you want. In short, you're speaking just to hear talk which is just as bad as being a fanboy whore.
Take your own advice, grow your own set and make a decision about what you want instead of crying about how everyone else is the cause of the personal issues you have. Do you tape record this stuff and play it in over your radio to get yourself going in the morning or what?
"Doesn't really matter what I'd like to see" Holy F'ing cow you are customer, complaining about how the games haven't been improving to give you want you want but what you want doesn't matter. What an epiphany.
Edit: Coldmeat, hopefully DarkFall will get released just so I can see it in action And probably be killed by you.
Actually I was primarily a miner and crafter who was generally on the receiving end of the griefing. Even after Trammel I still mined in Felucca. Did I get fuming mad when I lost a couple hours worth a work to a PK? Sure... but that was the fun you see- I made enemies; and got to swear revenge- and hunt them- and actually develop histories with people in the game good and bad; beyond who's turn it is to do X dungeon raid for the umpteenth time to get so and so their drop. Was it perfect? No. Was it even great? No. Could it have been had the concept not been almost completely abandoned in MMORG's infancy? Absolutely.
I can tell we have different gaming backgrounds. Regardless, the part where you were talking about developing histories with people got me thinking. Most of the games i've played didn't leave much of an opportunity for that type of thing. It would be nice to see it become more common in future MMOs. Then again maybe i'm just disillusioned from the f2p/item mall "same game with some changes plague". I've been hopping around a lot trying to find a game that can hold my interest and so far nothing.
So I finaly got sick of looking and started looking into the p2p market. The only games I found interesting are still far from release. Kinda screwed there huh? lol Anyway when reading this post I was reminded of a game I used to play called Shadowbane. It was one of the only games that I actually started developing histories with people. "In game I mean". Rather it was seeking revenge, achieving a goal such as taking a mine, or watching each others backs during training sessions. It was fun but I kept gimping my builds so I wasn't getting anywhere.
I'm thinking of going back. I'm not sure how the population is now because the game is fairly dated, but after all the f2p .03% grindfest crap i've played in my quest for an interesting game it's starting to sound good again.
------------------------- Currently Playing: VCO Waiting for: Florensia, Age of Conan, Aion, & Guild Wars 2.
"Doesn't really matter what I'd like to see" Holy F'ing cow you are customer, complaining about how the games haven't been improving to give you want you want but what you want doesn't matter. What an epiphany.
It doesn't matter what I want. I know what I want; over a 100,000 other people who were there fighting the carebears when the split happened knew what they wanted too- did it matter? No. It doesn't matter now either. There's only two things that matter, what sells and balls. You're either gonna see more of what's selling- or your gonna see someone with balls make something new. You are not going to see a synergy of old schoolers who understand the untapped potential of open pvp under refined and improved mechanics/principles come together; hold hands and sing; and get things done.
It's not gonna happen.
EverQuest made the genre's image. WoW cemented it. Most of the folks who are playing an MMORPG have no idea what they are missing because this has been about the only kind of MMORPG you can buy for close to a decade now. That's the only reason it's huge.
What's funny is that a few early and poorly designed open PvP games have cemented the image of what open PvP is. It's like calling a 3 year old who hasn't fully grasped walking and talking yet utterly retarded and hopeless; better left in the basement and forgotten.
All these other sheep- most of the folks who've come into the MMORPG realm in the past 5 to 6 years; they give those of you comfort from the days of the split that your way was the right way. But when someone finally shows them what they've been missing out; something that was there in the beginning and thrown in the basement to be forgotten- they are going to turn on you.
When's it coming? I think in 2-5 years. But I dunno. I do know the carebear way will not prevail; living in peace and harmony is against human nature. Can't wait till that day- to watch the carebear empire fall; and all the sheep jump ship; to see a complete reversal of circumstances.
Personally, I do hope Darkfall is released. I will be there. I will create a guild, the Black Irish Brigade. A free roving mercenary band. We will have no city, no base, and nothing that you can take from us. Thanks to our international friends, and sleep disorders, we will operate 24/7. We have one, driving, single minded goal. If we see you outside, we will kill you, and take everything you have. Go to the bank, and get new gear? We will take that too. Bring your friends? Great, more replacement gear for us. Hide in your city? We will burn it down around your ears. You will never be safe, and you will never, ever succeed.
You say you want risk? You say you want the thrill of danger? We shall see, mon frere, we shall see.
Personally, I do hope Darkfall is released. I will be there. I will create a guild, the Black Irish Brigade. A free roving mercenary band. We will have no city, no base, and nothing that you can take from us. Thanks to our international friends, and sleep disorders, we will operate 24/7. We have one, driving, single minded goal. If we see you outside, we will kill you, and take everything you have. Go to the bank, and get new gear? We will take that too. Bring your friends? Great, more replacement gear for us. Hide in your city? We will burn it down around your ears. You will never be safe, and you will never, ever succeed.
You say you want risk? You say you want the thrill of danger? We shall see, mon frere, we shall see.
Personally, I do hope Darkfall is released.
I will be there. I will create a guild, The English. A world dominating communtity. We will have a city, a kingdom, and everything you want but don't have. Thanks to our international friends, and sleep disorders, we will operate 24/7. We have one, driving, single minded goal. To own everything.
When you come for our kingdom we will kill you, and take everything you have. We will use your gear to fill our armory. I will personally take your head and use for my footstool. I will take your arms and legs and put them at the four corners of my kingdom.
You will never, ever succeed.
Best post i have ever seen btw. I pray everyday this game will come out.
In summary. There have been only a few wildly successful open PvP games that left an unimaginable amount of room for improvement upon the formula. A formula that would make it more comfortable for everyone without compromising upon the very simple open-pvp principle; and without segregating the community. Instead we've seen nearly 10 years of EverQuest clones that obviously leave people bored stupid.
First off, PvE games like Everquest are centered about teamwork, social interaction, long term planning and strategic thinking. These are skills that require much more intellectual capacity then your open PvP games.
Now who's on their high horse? Much more intellectual capacity? Yeah MMOs are real brain strains. Don't be ridiculous.
C'mon people this thread has been one of the worst examples of obvious bias on both sides of the argument.
Ultima Online was the right game at the wrong time. There is no question that there are PvP players, PvE players, and some who like a mix of both. UO was breaking new ground, even Garriott admitted that he did not know how the game would unfold. As it turned out UO was very much a PvP game and unfortunately there were a whole bunch of PvE'ers who did not know what they were getting into and got a fairly negative experience. The result was that the tone for the MMO industry was set for the next decade. PvP hurts subcriber numbers.
But what if UO was released after EQ? The PvE crowd would have had a game to provide the experience they sought and some of the quirks of the industry would have already been ironed out. Perhaps we would have a very different atmosphere in the MMO industry today. Players who wanted a PvP experience would not be labeled as griefers and gankers. Maybe there would be a better selection of games for all players.
You would have basically had the same outcome. UO probably wouldn't still be up and running though.
First, most players wouldn't even have tried UO because it was a 2D game. Second, those players that would have been open minded enough to try it, would log on expecting the same kind of atmosphere as EQ and found themselves awash in a sea of thieves, and FPS refugee gankers. This would cause most of UO's player base to run screaming back to EQ and the rest of the players would have gone home to Quake 2 and later Counter-Stike or Diablo 2.
The ONLY reason that UO still survives is because it was the first successful MMO. Meridian 59 may have been first, but UO was the first to get over 100,000 players. While that may have been a hit in the PC market of 1998, it hardly made a scratch in the overall video gaming industry of that same time period. It was a niche game then, it's a niche game now, and any games following it's core gameplay will also be niche. The UO structure is good for smaller developers that don't need a large population to see a return on their investment, but not so good for the major players that need a quarter of a million subscribers just to make the ends meet.
Ok first of all eq1 was not simple in all ways just some ways, secondly it was more of a pve game and there is nothing wrong with that. Alot of people like games where you group and fight raid gods and etc. Everyone has differant tastes just because you do not like these games does not mean everyone else shouldnt have there own pve grouping game. Geesh go play lineage 2 or wait for warhammer to come out and stop complaining you cant have it all.
They made what? 3 early open PvP games- and then almost scrapped the idea entirely and shelved it.
Think about how stupid that is. Stop for one actual minute and think about it. In 3 years they (the industry) essentially said FFA-PVP or open-PvP is impossible; can't be done; violates a law of physics- whatever- and GAVE UP.
Do you know how stupid that is?
I've said it before. It's like locking a 3 year old kid up in the basement because he's not so great at walking and talking yet; because he'll never grow up to amount to anything if he isn't fully developed at 3 right?
That's how stupid it is.
And what have the PvE-everybody-wins games shown us since the launch of everquest? Because they've had more than 8 years now to show us something great; and all I hear about from folks who still play in the genre is how god damned stale it is.
Comments
Oh they won't go away- they'll just become the minority and live in the shadows. All the WoW zombies and the people who are infants and toddlers in MMORPG will eventually realize what they have been missing out on in a refined open PvP environment and bail on the few of you original carebear clowns.
In the beginning of the split; there were a little less than 200,000 of us. Now there are over 10 million. 10 million bored gamers; hungry for something worth their time.
Just wait.
Yes i remember playing more than a month around moonglow just because there was no newbie state and every time i wanted to go a bit further i got my butt kicked (there was no feluca or trammel these days).
It was fun for people playing with 200 ping but i had no chance with my 750-800 (when i was lucky) since i was playing from europe. This kind of hard core PVP (call it what you like) was not designed to distinguish true PVP players from a bunch of people waiting hidden around corners in towns and dungeons to get your loot .
It had nothing to do with fun or challenge for some people. Actually for most people that wanted to do some crafting (or anything different than ranged combat) and did not want to spend all of their skill points into resisting spells, magery and crossbows. It was completely imbalanced and it's virtual economy become a total failure (too many characters per server).
Everquest actually helped the genre to evolve. From Ultima's pointless World to something that was a little more tuned ,had cooperative gameplay and fun.
i don't think that there has been a full PVP game that gave players equal opportunities to prevail.
I hope that darkfall will evolve the Genre. But it should first be released since i got sick of reading news about it and other upcoming online games that looked promising and finally turned into skill based first person shooters.
Posted elsewhere but seems fitting for this topic...
MMORPG
member of imminst.org
No, no. Everything he said is gospel truth, because he's called everyone that disagreed with him a faggot, or a dildo, or a dildo, faggot carebear, which means he wins.
It's also the reason that him, and those like him, will never, ever, get the game they want.
It's sad, really. I hope they do. Personally, I hope it features full looting, permadeath, and an animated *azzrape* emote. Just so I could have the pleasure of watching them run crying to the forums about how they logged in, and got treated like a prison bitch in the environment that they wanted so, so badly.
Personally, I do hope Darkfall is released.
I will be there. I will create a guild, the Black Irish Brigade. A free roving mercenary band. We will have no city, no base, and nothing that you can take from us. Thanks to our international friends, and sleep disorders, we will operate 24/7. We have one, driving, single minded goal.
If we see you outside, we will kill you, and take everything you have. Go to the bank, and get new gear? We will take that too. Bring your friends? Great, more replacement gear for us. Hide in your city? We will burn it down around your ears.
You will never be safe, and you will never, ever succeed.
You say you want risk? You say you want the thrill of danger? We shall see, mon frere, we shall see.
Coldmeat........I want in on a guild like that!
This is the problem with the MMO community. We scream for new ideas and chastise developers for not having guts and coming up with something you want but you don't even know what you want. In short, you're speaking just to hear talk which is just as bad as being a fanboy whore.
Take your own advice, grow your own set and make a decision about what you want instead of crying about how everyone else is the cause of the personal issues you have. Do you tape record this stuff and play it in over your radio to get yourself going in the morning or what?
"Doesn't really matter what I'd like to see"
Holy F'ing cow you are customer, complaining about how the games haven't been improving to give you want you want but what you want doesn't matter. What an epiphany.
Edit: Coldmeat, hopefully DarkFall will get released just so I can see it in action
And probably be killed by you.
I can tell we have different gaming backgrounds. Regardless, the part where you were talking about developing histories with people got me thinking. Most of the games i've played didn't leave much of an opportunity for that type of thing. It would be nice to see it become more common in future MMOs. Then again maybe i'm just disillusioned from the f2p/item mall "same game with some changes plague". I've been hopping around a lot trying to find a game that can hold my interest and so far nothing.
So I finaly got sick of looking and started looking into the p2p market. The only games I found interesting are still far from release. Kinda screwed there huh? lol Anyway when reading this post I was reminded of a game I used to play called Shadowbane. It was one of the only games that I actually started developing histories with people. "In game I mean". Rather it was seeking revenge, achieving a goal such as taking a mine, or watching each others backs during training sessions. It was fun but I kept gimping my builds so I wasn't getting anywhere.
I'm thinking of going back. I'm not sure how the population is now because the game is fairly dated, but after all the f2p .03% grindfest crap i've played in my quest for an interesting game it's starting to sound good again.
-------------------------
Currently Playing: VCO
Waiting for: Florensia, Age of Conan, Aion, & Guild Wars 2.
It doesn't matter what I want. I know what I want; over a 100,000 other people who were there fighting the carebears when the split happened knew what they wanted too- did it matter? No. It doesn't matter now either. There's only two things that matter, what sells and balls. You're either gonna see more of what's selling- or your gonna see someone with balls make something new. You are not going to see a synergy of old schoolers who understand the untapped potential of open pvp under refined and improved mechanics/principles come together; hold hands and sing; and get things done.
It's not gonna happen.
EverQuest made the genre's image. WoW cemented it. Most of the folks who are playing an MMORPG have no idea what they are missing because this has been about the only kind of MMORPG you can buy for close to a decade now. That's the only reason it's huge.
What's funny is that a few early and poorly designed open PvP games have cemented the image of what open PvP is. It's like calling a 3 year old who hasn't fully grasped walking and talking yet utterly retarded and hopeless; better left in the basement and forgotten.
All these other sheep- most of the folks who've come into the MMORPG realm in the past 5 to 6 years; they give those of you comfort from the days of the split that your way was the right way. But when someone finally shows them what they've been missing out; something that was there in the beginning and thrown in the basement to be forgotten- they are going to turn on you.
When's it coming? I think in 2-5 years. But I dunno. I do know the carebear way will not prevail; living in peace and harmony is against human nature. Can't wait till that day- to watch the carebear empire fall; and all the sheep jump ship; to see a complete reversal of circumstances.
Personally, I do hope Darkfall is released.
I will be there. I will create a guild, The English. A world dominating communtity. We will have a city, a kingdom, and everything you want but don't have. Thanks to our international friends, and sleep disorders, we will operate 24/7. We have one, driving, single minded goal. To own everything.
When you come for our kingdom we will kill you, and take everything you have. We will use your gear to fill our armory. I will personally take your head and use for my footstool. I will take your arms and legs and put them at the four corners of my kingdom.
You will never, ever succeed.
Best post i have ever seen btw. I pray everyday this game will come out.
Now who's on their high horse? Much more intellectual capacity? Yeah MMOs are real brain strains. Don't be ridiculous.
Ultima Online was the right game at the wrong time. There is no question that there are PvP players, PvE players, and some who like a mix of both. UO was breaking new ground, even Garriott admitted that he did not know how the game would unfold. As it turned out UO was very much a PvP game and unfortunately there were a whole bunch of PvE'ers who did not know what they were getting into and got a fairly negative experience. The result was that the tone for the MMO industry was set for the next decade. PvP hurts subcriber numbers.
But what if UO was released after EQ? The PvE crowd would have had a game to provide the experience they sought and some of the quirks of the industry would have already been ironed out. Perhaps we would have a very different atmosphere in the MMO industry today. Players who wanted a PvP experience would not be labeled as griefers and gankers. Maybe there would be a better selection of games for all players.
But what if UO was released after EQ?
You would have basically had the same outcome. UO probably wouldn't still be up and running though.
First, most players wouldn't even have tried UO because it was a 2D game. Second, those players that would have been open minded enough to try it, would log on expecting the same kind of atmosphere as EQ and found themselves awash in a sea of thieves, and FPS refugee gankers. This would cause most of UO's player base to run screaming back to EQ and the rest of the players would have gone home to Quake 2 and later Counter-Stike or Diablo 2.
The ONLY reason that UO still survives is because it was the first successful MMO. Meridian 59 may have been first, but UO was the first to get over 100,000 players. While that may have been a hit in the PC market of 1998, it hardly made a scratch in the overall video gaming industry of that same time period. It was a niche game then, it's a niche game now, and any games following it's core gameplay will also be niche. The UO structure is good for smaller developers that don't need a large population to see a return on their investment, but not so good for the major players that need a quarter of a million subscribers just to make the ends meet.
They made what? 3 early open PvP games- and then almost scrapped the idea entirely and shelved it.
Think about how stupid that is. Stop for one actual minute and think about it. In 3 years they (the industry) essentially said FFA-PVP or open-PvP is impossible; can't be done; violates a law of physics- whatever- and GAVE UP.
Do you know how stupid that is?
I've said it before. It's like locking a 3 year old kid up in the basement because he's not so great at walking and talking yet; because he'll never grow up to amount to anything if he isn't fully developed at 3 right?
That's how stupid it is.
And what have the PvE-everybody-wins games shown us since the launch of everquest? Because they've had more than 8 years now to show us something great; and all I hear about from folks who still play in the genre is how god damned stale it is.
What's wrong with this picture?