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question to religious people
Nihilanth
Member Posts: 1,357
Let me preface this thread by saying by no means is my intention in posting this to start a flame war. I'm not trying to bash anyone's beliefs or call them into question; this i just something I've always wondered as an agnostic.
No matter what religion you are, be in Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, whatever, why is it that you believe the religion you do? If you go back to the very core of your belief, why is it that you believe the Bible is the "correct" word of God, and not the Koran. Why is it that you believe what Moses wrote in Genesis is more accurate than what Mohammad wrote about Allah or vice versa.
Let's assume for a minute that your entire memory was wiped clean and you were looking at every religion on Earth as a blank slate. What is it about your religion that makes it stand out, makes it more credible to someone with absolutely no knowledge or pre-existing bias towards it?
Just something I've always wondered... It's one of the main reasons I'm an agnostic, because in my mind I don't see why any one should be taken more credibly than any other.
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Nihilanth - Kerra Paladin - Blackburrow - EverQuest II
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Comments
but i agrree with u..believing in books is kinda not smart
btw hindus..buddists ...communists.. dont believe in books
Schutzbar - Human Warrior - Windrunner Alliance - World of Warcraft
Nihilanth - Kerra Paladin - Blackburrow - EverQuest II
XBL Gamertag - Eagle15GT
One could say that it's just because of the way a person is raised. i.e. one with a Muslim family may feel compelled to practice the religion of Islam, but that wouldn't quite explain those who leave their own religion for another. To shove my own beliefs in again, Christians believe that one can be desensitized to the Holy Spirit after ignoring it quite a bit. After that, I don't suppose it would be hard to lose faith and become a Hindu, Muslim, Buddist, or anything else.
Okay, that wasn't quite the unbiased opinion that you wanted, but I don't think such a question can be answered without bias.
The Holy Bible (containing both the Old and New Testaments) is the most published and book of all time. There's a reason why so many are bought. It brings comfort to some, hope for others and an insightful array of words to describe what God is really all about.
My stance will be for the Jewish/Christian Faith. The Jewish faith can be traced to literally the first civilized empire and even further back. There has been acrheaological evidence to prove that the Hebrew people had resided in ancient cities that predated Egypt by centuries.
Why do I believe Moses wrote Genesis and why I believe it was through the hand of God? Well...its a mixture of faith and proof. Faith, because in order to practive any religion you will need faith. Without faith, you cannot worship anything. Even in the realm of science you need to have faith.
Proof, because I have seen so much evidence that literally occured in the pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament). I have seen the ancient signet ring of the House of Jacob (the second highest official of the courts of Egypt). I have seen ancient caves where the ancient hebrew slaves scrawed upon the cave walls in egypt near their settlements "God help us, God deliver us", I have seen footage of metal axel chariot wheels underwater that simply cannot be explained...even the wheelspokes correlated to the time of Moses (Egyptian chariots had different wheel spokes depending on the dynasty). I have seen a mountain with a singed top, a basin that would hold water, an ancient remnant of an old store house near the base of the mountain and ancient scribblings of a golden calf drawn on many stones.....all of which were heavily guarded by that countries militia and barbed wired with strict entrance rules.
But I could go on and on about this. I spent 4 years with a Masters Degree and 3 years for my Ph.D in ancient biblical studies so I know a lot and I can tell you, whether you want to believe in God or not or what book is the correct book, I have seen unequivocable proof that the Hebrew journies as a nomadic tribes as listed in Genesis chapetr seven onward to the promised land of Israel in the book of Joshua has really happened. Even the crossing of the red sea.
That's why I believe. Also...why do I believe that the Judeo-Christian God is the true God? Because Jesus said "No one comes to the Father but through me." So.. you have to either conclude that this man was a complete mad man who would have himself crucified on a cross or he was telling the truth. The Apostles witnessed his resurrection and was so fervant in their passion to see their God again they suffered the same fate as Christ or even worse. The only apostle that died of an old age was John. Everyone else was boiled to death, hacked, drawn and quartered, decapited and crucified upside down. Why would twelve people spread falsehoods about a dead person if they knew they would be killed for these teachings?
Certainly, it wasn't for world domination! The christian faith was not a recognized faith until 360 AD when Emporer Constantine declared it so. The Apostles would have nothing to win and everything to loose if they were lying about Christ. If they were telling the truth, they would have everything to gain...even in death.
Also, my years as a Priest has given me spiritual tangeble proof in an afterlife. I have seen things that would make you crap yourself. I have seen more apparations in my 8 years in the priesthood during house blessings that I care to see. 4 is 4 too much. Another reason why I also think the Christian God is the true God is because whenever I would mention Jesus Christ during my houseblessings of haunted homes I saw things that weren't too pleasant. You can choose to believe me or not believe me. That is your decision.
It has to do with a mixture of Faith, hope, and proof for me.
I cannot speak much for the Muslim faith as I only took 5 classes on the Koran. But I can tell you this. They believe Mary was a virgin and that Jesus was born from a virgin and lived a sinless life. Matter of fact, Mary is mentioned more in the Koran than in the Bible. Even the Muslim faith is routed through the Jewish and Christian faiths. Ask any iman (Muslim preacher) and they will tell you that the Koran is an extension of the Judaic/Christian faith. Muslims believe that Abraham is their father....so does the Christian and Jews. Christian and Jews follow the route of Abrahams second born, Isaac, while the Muslims follow Abraham's first born (from a servant girl), Ishmael. 75% of all Muslim traditions date back to Judean traditions.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
I'm surprised that you didn't talk about the book of Barnabas, which Muslims like to use to rectify some beliefs that clash with the Bible...or even the Muslim admiration of Ishmael (and their lineage to him), who in Genesis is described as a wild one, even going so far as to say that his descendants will be wild as well: "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers. (NIV, Genesis 16) "
Enigma said it better than I ever could though. While I am not a life-long Christian, I believe that there is simply no substance behind atheism, and I never even came close to being atheist. I spent most of high school and my first year of college agnostic, and converted shortly after my freshman year. As far as other religions are concerned, it is for the same reasons that Enigma has stated. No other religion has such strong heritage and observable evidence behind it. While I don't believe in 99.9% of stigmata cases and ghost sightings, I do believe that there is a great deal in the Bible that is simply too complex and nuanced for a man to write on his own. People who skim through the Book of John or Revelation in their attempts to refute something will never notice this nuance...and will only strive to look for inconsistancies...but if one reads the Bible with the intent of learning the word of God, he will see that it is all tied together, and there is no string left to sit on its own.
I can't say much else that Enigma hasn't already though, he obviously knows more about it than I do. I'm not one to believe anything blindly, and I think the greatest reason is...why would a man live a life, knowing, and saying every step of the way that he was going to be killed...why would he do that? What would he have to gain? No man would educate himself so thoroughly on scripture, only to use it to prove the high priests of the time wrong and be put to death for it. The Old Testament foretold of a savior, and I believe that Jesus is that savior because he fulfilled what was prophesied, and he gained nothing from it but his own death, for us.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Yes, I believe in the importance of religion. Religion has helped countless generations meet a certain minimum in their degree of civilization. For thousands of years religion has proven to be a means of communication that withstood the entropy of the ages and has provided mankind with a way of securing certain knowledge.
Yes, I believe that religions are a product of their time. Even the most harcore of religious people on these forums would have been tortured to death in certain places and in certain times by the people with whom they supposidly share a religion. Simply because they would be damned sinners.
Religions change as people change. And religions are used at will. For example the bible has known a history of use and overuse. The old testament is a product of a summary of numerous stories that have haunted the craddle of civilization for eons. Stands to reason the condensed version is recognziable to everyone and all civilizations and cultures. And the new testament is the product of a whole series of political, ideological and other decisions troughout the centuries. Starting in the early centuries of Christianity with the battle between the various cults that made this young religion. Later on when one side held victory within its grasp and the 4 final gospels were chosen out of a massive 36+ gospels. The 4 that would require the least questions, the most room for interpretating but yet the most consistent view of Jesus Christ. Then not so long after the Emperor of Rome saw in Christianity a way to unite his crumbling empire under one banner, not realizing that this new form of ideological isolation would prove to be one of the sources of a massive stagnation within his empire and its ultimate doom. But Christianity was still used and became the new religion of the Holy Roman Empire. Later, when the Romans wree destroyed and the highways lay barren, only to be used to fasten the barbaian onslaught Christianity survived in enclaves all around Dark Age Europe. The invasion came swiftly and gently and soon the majority of the peoples in Europe was Christian as their pagan religions were merged with Christianity to form holidays like Christmass and Easter, which were virtually non-existing before. And the church became powerful. A force to be reckoned with among the dozens of kingdoms in early medieval Europe. A force that was corrputing itself to become decadent and condesending. A force that had little to do with saving souls anymore. A force that demanded respect and obidience. A force that hunted science and provided blessings for the rich. And when the monasteries came to copy the words of the bible (in Latin, a language only few understood) it became a force that changed the words of its most holy book at will. In later centuries the bible evolved even more. Parts were removed, others were joined wsith the greater whole. And when the church (not so long ago) finally realized that people should be able to read the book without knowing latin, translations made an even bigger mess of those holy words.
All in all... The bible is a powerful book of history for it is the result of 2000+ years of scheming and manipulating. And yet it still contains a lot of universal wisdom which should be an enrichment for every human.
Yes, I believe religion is like a hammer. Useful to bash someone's head in, or to build a house.
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like I said, Im not an expert of the Koran but what I can tell you is this:
Their biggest grip about the Christian faith is the Trinity. And to understand this, you must know the background behind the arabian peoples during and before the time of Mohammed.
The Arabian people were a nomadic people. VERY nomadic. After the fall of Persian to the Greeks, everything just crashed and fell to pieces (as similiar to the dark ages after Rome's fall). Arabian art, culture, literature, everything just fell to pieces and the people became a nomadic race of people, moving from one oasis to another. Very similiar to the ancient Hebrews before the arrival into Egypt around 4500 BCE.
During these nomadic times, the Arabian people were in constant war with each other. They built small tiny city states and just took turns killing each other. Also, their number of gods had increased. It wasn't uncommon for some Arabian city states to have more gods than the Romans did.
Mohammed found that the first step to unity within his people is to unite them under the banner of one God. A true God. Allah. Arabic for God. He used various theological practices of the Judeo-Christian right but used more Christian than Judeo because he had a strong hatred for the Jews. Mohammed's Aunt was a devout Christian and he heard stories about what the Jewish priests did to Jesus. Yes, he believes he was a sinless man, but he doesnt believe he is the son of God.
Fast Forward today. The Muslims are VERY monotheistic. And...well...so are the Jews and Christians. However, here is the problem. The Muslims absolutely hate the Jewish people (well...the fundementalist Muslims) because they still blame them because Abraham choose Isaac as the birth right instead of their ancestor, Ishmael, who was the first born but did not have Abraham's blessing.
The have a thing against us for two reasons. (when I say "we" I mean Christians)
1. We sorta did go into their land and killed and rape their families in the Crusades. As a Priest, I can honestly say the Crusades was THE STUPIDEST IDEA ever conceived by ANY Pope. Christianity preaches on love and witness. No death and destruction. Before the crusades, the Muslims were very warm to the Christians. Now, they will forever mistrust the Christians (the fundamentalist Mulisms).
2. We believe in the Trinity. While a Christian believes the Trinity is one God in three persons, the Muslims will always believe that we worship three gods. I believe the Trinity can be looked at it like this:
Look at H2O. It comes in three forms. Water, Ice, and Steam. All three properties of H20 are completely structurally different than the other two but they share the same exact chemical properties.
The Muslims look at it like we worship three people and three gods.
I had two Imams during the couse of my classes that said if I could convinced them that the Trinity was a monotheistic practice then they will become a Christian. While, I found this to be far fetched, it was intriguing.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
MadAce, I utterly agree with you.
Religion can be a very demising, scheming, damning tool or it can be an instrument of hope and healing. Hopefully, there will be a time in our future, when the majority of all believers can come to an understanding that love and acceptance is the true meaning behind what God (or whatever you believe in) intends for us.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
And the crusades were a fine idea. The Arab world was getting to be much too powerful, with their firm grasp on spices and other riches that came from the far east. They were also quite close to uniting and they held a lot of strategic positions from which an invasion to the slave rich European nations was possible, as the Arabs believed in the power of slave labour. Europe had its own take on slavery with it's feodal system.
So, altho very expensive, the crusades were a fine economically inspired series of campaigns. Oh, and great public relations too.
You didn't think it had anything to do with religion, did you?
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Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
CLICK HERE TO GET A LIST OF FREE MMO LISTS!!!
Since you are not my representative, the way the Pope was, at the time, the representative of Christianity (at least the dominant branch of it) I think you'd have a hard time convincing them to hit me back instead of you
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Since you are not my representative, the way the Pope was, at the time, the representative of Christianity (at least the dominant branch of it) I think you'd have a hard time convincing them to hit me back instead of you
I'll just shout "In The name of Draenor!" and then I'll run away, as per usual.CLICK HERE TO GET A LIST OF FREE MMO LISTS!!!
If you're asking me why I'm a Christian, then I'll tell you it is because I was raised around people that believed in the God Christians know. But if you're asking me why I remain a Christian, then I can illustrate a little.
Why I am not an atheist:
Why I am not a member of another religion:
My beliefs concerning Christianity:
Why I believe in Jesus of Nazareth (ie. Yeshua or Salvation or whatever you want to call him) as the Messiah:
[Edit] Check out http://www.whoisjesus.org/english/resources/areadydefense/ch06/default.htm for a little on Biblical prophecy.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Why DO people suspend their disbelief when we read these books. "donkeys can talk, people can fly and a man named jesus lives up in the sky." I think you raise some good questions that everyone should ask themselves before being irrational and choosing to believe.
It's been theorized that these books were written by the enemy of man. They certainly have been used for some of the most heinous crimes against humanity; slavery, the crusades have already been mentioned, etc.
The religions create ingroup and outgroup behavior. To the extent that other religions are wrong the believers think that THEY MUST be right. It's the old divide and conquer strategy. By focusing on how different people are it's easy to lose sight of how much more we might have in common. The opiate of the masses, these books keep the sheep in their pens. All the turn the other cheek crap and get your reward after you die philosophies are great for enforcing the status quo on the have not's. The good ole protestant work ethic keeps people from questioning the distribution of wealth, and keeps the masses nose to the grindstone. The threat of hell keeps their a**es to the fire too. If you look in the ghetto's there are usually about as many churches as liquor stores....why might that be? Hallelujah, pass the jesus juice!
The whole premise of being moral for the sake of reward or punishment is crap too. You should be good to be good, not because god "knows whey you are sleeping, and knows when you are awake", god in this context is like santa clause for adults. Hell is the ultimate punishment, if you are good to just avoid that then how good are you really, wtf would you do to me and your fellow man if we removed this from the equation. Heaven as a reward is usually viewed as exclusionary, and if this selfish type of reward is what motivates you to be kind i seriously have to doubt how kind you really are.
I tend towards the agnostic side myself, can't prove the existence, can't disprove it either. I'll tell you what though, if there is a god he's a cruel M**F**R!!!! Look at all the suffering in this world, works in mysterious ways my a**!!! LOL.
I wish everyone would look at this they way the orginal poster put it, world would probly be a better place.....someone once sang....IMAGINE there's no heaven, and no religion too....
[Edit] Just thought I'd delete this post since I figured that what has already been said is of a little more worth than what I had to say here.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Just for the sake of argument, if someone ever did something wrong to you do you ever bash your father or mother because they weren't there to save you? Ever needed money so badly for college because college would save you from twenty years of economic hardships but your parents still said no?
Ever blamed the drunk driver for killing the family in the other car other than God? Ever blamed the rapist for raping the woman or the terrorist for killing innocent people? You simply cannot blame God for every thing that happens in this world. You just can't.
The moment you wish God controlled every aspect of your life, then you will become completely worthless to do anything under your own will. God gave us free will and free will comes with a price.
God isn't out personal puppet master that controls the actions of every person on this planet. He isn't responsible for the sufferring of this world. We are. Whether it is through AIDs, Poverty, murder, suicide, homelessness, violence; we are responsible because we made this happen. We also have the responsibility to correct the wrongs we did or correct the problems other parts of the world is facing.
Aslo, you cannot blame God because someone died. I watched my father die in a hospital bed when he was 45 years old. I watched him stopped breathing and watched him slip away to the point where I knew I would never see him again until I die. Did I blame God because my dad died? Of course not. I blamed all those damn cigerettes he smoked. Did I blame my God because my Aunt died of Cancer? Of course not! God said there will be suffering in this world and it will seem hopeless, that is why he sent Christ to earth to die for our sins so that we do have a hope to cling to in our darkest of times.
We have the tools to eliminate poverty and hunger in this world. You can't blame God because we're too damn greedy to make sure we can all pull in together to make our evils in this world go away. God gave us a brain and some common sense.
Wishing away religion and heaven will not work. First, because it will always be there. Second, putting a scapegoat (religion and God) on issues that humanity can be resolve with some elbow grease will not work either. The first step to a more peaceful time here on earth is to admit the fact that we are in control of our own actions because God ordained it that way.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Just for the sake of argument, if someone ever did something wrong to you do you ever bash your father or mother because they weren't there to save you? Ever needed money so badly for college because college would save you from twenty years of economic hardships but your parents still said no?
Ever blamed the drunk driver for killing the family in the other car other than God? Ever blamed the rapist for raping the woman or the terrorist for killing innocent people? You simply cannot blame God for every thing that happens in this world. You just can't.
The moment you wish God controlled every aspect of your life, then you will become completely worthless to do anything under your own will. God gave us free will and free will comes with a price.
God isn't out personal puppet master that controls the actions of every person on this planet. He isn't responsible for the sufferring of this world. We are. Whether it is through AIDs, Poverty, murder, suicide, homelessness, violence; we are responsible because we made this happen. We also have the responsibility to correct the wrongs we did or correct the problems other parts of the world is facing.
Aslo, you cannot blame God because someone died. I watched my father die in a hospital bed when he was 45 years old. I watched him stopped breathing and watched him slip away to the point where I knew I would never see him again until I die. Did I blame God because my dad died? Of course not. I blamed all those damn cigerettes he smoked. Did I blame my God because my Aunt died of Cancer? Of course not! God said there will be suffering in this world and it will seem hopeless, that is why he sent Christ to earth to die for our sins so that we do have a hope to cling to in our darkest of times.
We have the tools to eliminate poverty and hunger in this world. You can't blame God because we're too damn greedy to make sure we can all pull in together to make our evils in this world go away. God gave us a brain and some common sense.
Wishing away religion and heaven will not work. First, because it will always be there. Second, putting a scapegoat (religion and God) on issues that humanity can be resolve with some elbow grease will not work either. The first step to a more peaceful time here on earth is to admit the fact that we are in control of our own actions because God ordained it that way.
om·nis·cientadj. Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.
n.
- One having total knowledge.
- Omniscient God. Used with the.
free willcon·tra·dic·tion
/?k?n
tr??d?k
??n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuh
n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
Mind you, I respect you're beliefs as I do anybody elses because everybody thinks differently and I will never discriminate against anyone or a religion for their beliefs. I myself, am a Buddhist, so therefore I don't really believe in the Bible, or the stories to go along with the Bible. I do, believe in Jesus, for as he was a real person, but not in his teachings or in God. I believe in Karma, which is what Christianity believes in. I.e- You do good things to go to Heaven, bad to go to Hell, etc. I personally never really go into depth on my religion because I have never really liked explaining it.
adj. Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.
n.
- One having total knowledge.
- Omniscient God. Used with the.
free willJust because God knows everything doesn't mean he is obligated to fix everything. Again, like I mentioned, he is not our Puppet Master nor does he have any intention to be our Puppet Master. I don't understand what your point is. Are you saying because God is all knowing he has to prevent every bad thing that happens? I don't think so. It doesn't work like that.
con·tra·dic·tion
/?k?n
tr??d?k
??n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-truh-dik-shuh
n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
Good definition of that word. Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with my previous thread. And just think...I thought I explained it well in laymen's terms.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
That's not what Christianity believes in
. That's what makes it different than any other religion.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.