I'm agnostic myself, and sometimes I end up leaning one way or another. I consider myself Agnostic, as I have a lot of trouble believing in Religion and God. However, I can't build up enough faith to say there is absolutely no possibility of there being a God. Really, I'm not hardwired for faith in just about anyone or anything, so its no suprise I end up being Agnostic, which is basically the complete lack of faith.
At least you're open minded. A lot of Atheists try to disprove God through disproving Christianity's God, Judaism's God, Islam's God...ect. But all Atheists are doing is disproving Christianity's God, Judaism's God, and Islam's God. Atheists can't disprove that there is no God at all, all they can hope to do is disprove religions and all their excess beliefs (like did Jesus do this or that...ect). We don't disprove these particular gods for our own sake. We disprove it as a case for how man makes gods. It's just easier to use examples people are familiar with other than old gods no one believes in anymore like Zeus and whatnot.
As an agnostic person, I know your question is not aimed at me. But I'll say that since I can envision an existence without a supreme creator, I feel no compulsion to force myself to have a belief that I don't have. But nor do I begrudge someone who cannot fathom an existence without a supreme creator that belief.
And if that means someone else's religion damns me to hell...well so be it. I'm sure the company will be interesting at least. You know what John Milton said "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven". Or was that Satan? I can never keep it straight.
I'll say I absolutely cannot empathize with Christians, Jews, or Muslims. I honestly don't know why they follow the mythology of ancient semetic sheep herders. Why is Jewish mythology more important than any other culture's mythology? I don't know, humans are a strange animal.
Oh well, me and the other apes will be in the corner laughing at the religious people while we sip beer and teach each other sign language
I think that 'rule in hell..." thing is probably from Dante's Divine Comedy, in which case, Milton did write it. Anyway, I think it's difficult for people with an agnostic mind set to understand religous folk. Sure, you can understand their motives and why they feel that way, but I don't think most nontheists are able to really grasp it. I regard religion as a crutch, so I have a lot of trouble and issues with understanding my friends christian beliefs, because I think it believe them weak.
I am intrigued by this conversation and will give you an answer. First I must admit something about myself that I don't often talk about; I very nearly entered a Catholic seminary.
I was raised Catholic and was extremely fervent, some might argue insanely so. It came to the point where I was dissatisfied with the usual trappings and began to seek out ways to prove myself worthy, sort of self tests. This started simply enough, and it was always private and intensly personal. Little tests here or their, volunteer to do this unpleasant task, accomplish such and such a goal. That didn't satisfy me. Eventually it came that I found release in self mortification. If you've ever heard of the flagellants, I did that. I whipped myself, amongst other tests most of you'd find pretty bizarre and scary. Stay with me, this is just to give some background of my fervor.
Much of my life I told myself that my path should be that of priesthood. I studied on my own in childhood and as a young man, but also built my character up to be equal to what tasks would be asked of me. I came very close to entering a seminary, which to those who don't know is sort of a priest school. I had two friends my age who also wanted to join. Our paths skewed in strange ways. A very wise priest told me I should pray and contemplate what I was doing, simply because of the gravity of the path I considered. He told me that if I entered a seminary I would do this alot. I shared this advice with my friends who all agreed it was good, and the three of us spent several months of profound soul searching. I focused on several key moments in my life that were the most troubling to my faith, and ultimately, I stepped back.
So, it was my two friends who entered the seminary, and I did not. In time one of my friends also left, and I did not hear from him for a long time. I kept in contact with the other, who told me some interesting stories of what he was learning. He was also instructed, INSTRUCTED, that it would be a good idea to date a little. The idea was that you've got to get to know what you're giving up, if you're going to be strong enough. It was a good lesson, he dropped out soon after. Actually dated a girl who was trying to become a nun. They both had a crisis of faith for awhile, but reconciled, and are married and practicing Catholics.
The other friend later contacted me. Strangely enough he had become a die-hard Satanist (not devil worshipper, there's a difference, but it's involved). I revealed that I had abandoned my faith in the Church, though not gone as far as he. We discussed this for a long time, and still do occasionally. His theory, and I believe it is sound, is that when you get that close to your faith, you find all the nagging pieces and either have to embrace them and work through to a solution, or you step back from your faith farther than when you started. Clearly he had stepped back and turned around. I admit that in the begining I harbored intense rage at the Catholic Church.
My introspection forced me to face some key points that disturbed me about the Church, and I list them from lax to severe. First is the sex abuse scandal. The fact is I was confirmed (Catholic sacrement) by a bishop who later turned out to be a pedophile, who was replaced by a man who turned out to be a pedophile, who...was replaced by a normal bishop who had a hidden pedophile in his staff he wasn't aware of..we hope. The Church really messed up the handling of this issue, and still does. Forgiveness is one thing, but putting children in harms way to cover up is evil.
The next peg up the ladder was that I genuinely hated most of the people in the Church. I would sit at Sunday mass and remark to myself how all the women were there, but the husbands could only be bothered to give a crap if they were dragged there, and never on football Sunday. I saw the old men and women who complained their lives away and gave me evil glances because they just didn't trust anyone under 35. I saw piss-poor priests who really didn't give a damn and just went through the motions; if you sought them out for advice they blew you off, uncaring of the fate of their supposed flock. I realized I hated these people, and if I hated the people in the Church then I hated the Church, for a Church is its souls and not the brick facade.
Finally, I realized that I did not believe in Christ's message. I never stopped admiring that a person could face brutal death for a cause, and I admire messages of pacifism backed with martyred blood. In the end, I realized I wasn't that kind of man. I am vengeful and indeed brutal when I need to be. I believe in a degree of pragmatism that Jesus would probably find horrid. I don't like people, I will never like people. There are core parts of my character that are completely contrary to that message. I am not compatible.
So, after all this, I came to realize something. I have faith, but not in any manmade church. I do not believe what the Bible preaches, or what the Pope says, or what the reverend at the corner churchs sings. I believe in a Creator, but I do not believe I can understand that being, at least not alive. I believe there is someting beyond death, because I have seen things. I can't really talk about these things because you will either think I'm insane or believe me or think I'm lying. I don't know that I want any of these reactions.
It comes to this: Faith is personal. You may see things in your life that you really can't repeat to others, because they won't understand. Or maybe you won't. The very definition of faith is that it cannot be explained, because if it could be it's not really faith. It's believing in something without tangible proof. If you know 100% for certain you don't really have faith, you already know. Maybe it comes down to that I decided to roll the dice on something on a whim. There are some people who play the odds, and try to believe in whatever they think is most likely so they won't go to hell. If I may offer a defiant statement, if your God is sending you to hell already, why worship? If I had to put bets down on existing deities, I suppose the Christian god ain't so bad. I never really believed in hell when I was Catholic, I figured when you die God sort of came and said, 'sorry, you messed up. Just say you're sorry and mean it.' But I'm not a Christian so I don't have that safety net to help me sleep at night.
Whatever created me made me defiant and irritable. These qualities must be part of the song of creation.
Thou shalt not kill is funny because they have to change the word of God to "murder" (apparently God made a mistake in definitions) in order for it to "make sense" because of the obvious religous folks in the military murdering people (if the war was declared illegally and also all the innocent people that get killed) and whatever else.
Edit: *sigh*...I was starting to get myself confused between kill and murder.
God didn't make the mistake. The original translators of the King James Bible made the mistake 400 years ago when they translated it as "Thou shalt not kill". The original Hebrew is "Lo tirtzach" tirtzach means "murder" ie. to take a human life under the wrong circumstances. Later translations merely re-translated the original text.
i'm just arguing that absolute free will and an omniscient God are mutually exclusive. If the outcome of our actions are known by god, then, at most, humans would have a perceived free will.
It kind of depends on how you view time.
If you set up a video camera on a street to film various pedestrians going about their business, this act does not have any effect on each person's ability to choose their own actions. However, when you watch the video back later, each of those choices has been captured. When you watch the tape, you can know what each person on that video is about to do, but that doesn't change the fact that they each had free will while they were being filmed. You know the outcome of their actions, but they still had free will.
A being who is outside of time as we know it can know the outcome of our actions without infringing on our free will.
i'm just arguing that absolute free will and an omniscient God are mutually exclusive. If the outcome of our actions are known by god, then, at most, humans would have a perceived free will.
It kind of depends on how you view time.
If you set up a video camera on a street to film various pedestrians going about their business, this act does not have any effect on each person's ability to choose their own actions. However, when you watch the video back later, each of those choices has been captured. When you watch the tape, you can know what each person on that video is about to do, but that doesn't change the fact that they each had free will while they were being filmed. You know the outcome of their actions, but they still had free will.
A being who is outside of time as we know it can know the outcome of our actions without infringing on our free will. The assumption there is that a person, given a closed environment, will make the same choice in the same circumstances.
Therefore making the idea free choice moot.
I'm not aware of any such assumption there. How have you come to that conclusion?
Your video anaolgy makes no sense. You say that god knows the out come of our actions before our actions are created and this is like watching a hidden camera.
Take the same person, walk him down the same street at the exact same time, does he do the exact same thing ?
If yes, this person has no free will and is controlled by the environment and/or god
If no, then this person has free will before, and has free will now, therefore his actions may vary, as it is his choice. which is what free will actually means.
Free will is the ability to choose ones actions at any stage, which creates its own outcomes.
No, not like watching a hidden camera. I said like watching a video of something that has happened. While the video was made, those appearing in the video had total freedom of choice in their actions.
Your video anaolgy makes no sense. You say that god knows the out come of our actions before our actions are created and this is like watching a hidden camera.
Take the same person, walk him down the same street at the exact same time, does he do the exact same thing ?
If yes, this person has no free will and is controlled by the environment and/or god
If no, then this person has free will before, and has free will now, therefore his actions may vary, as it is his choice. which is what free will actually means.
Free will is the ability to choose ones actions at any stage, which creates its own outcomes.
No, not like watching a hidden camera. I said like watching a video of something that has happened. While the video was made, those appearing in the video had total freedom of choice in their actions. So god is only an observer ? I'm just trying to point out how it is possible for a being outside of time to be able to know the outcome of your actions without taking away free will. The video idea is something I find a useful analogy in understanding such a concept.
I could also use the example of a "sim" type game, where you have control over the timeline with fast-forward and rewind buttons, but then you need to imagine that the characters in game have their own will and are not just programmed.
The being who is outside of time would not necessarily have to just be an observer.
How can a being, no matter where he exists, influennce the outcome of our actions and not be considered impeeding on our freewill ?
I can understand if God is purely an observer, but to say god can change things and give us free will is not only mutual exclusive, but goes against the teachings of the bible
Well, I just influenced the outcome of your actions by typing the last few posts. Did I impede your free will?
I more of believe in my religion, becuase I was not only raised on it, it gave me good morals and a more greater feeling to live and to have life. My parents are very good people too and their wisdom far surpasses me (but I want to surpass them).
I think that 'rule in hell..." thing is probably from Dante's Divine Comedy, in which case, Milton did write it. Anyway, I think it's difficult for people with an agnostic mind set to understand religous folk. Sure, you can understand their motives and why they feel that way, but I don't think most nontheists are able to really grasp it. I regard religion as a crutch, so I have a lot of trouble and issues with understanding my friends christian beliefs, because I think it believe them weak.
Totally off-topic... Dante Alighieri wrote The Divine Comedy. Milton wrote Paradise Lost, in which the quote you're referring to appears.
Here may we reign secure, and in my choice To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell. Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.
Hmm lets see, the bible is popular because back after Christianity was established it then became very warlike and since it conquered most of the area's it was able to write history as it saw fit. Imagine if the Chinese or Mongols took over and please don't forget that Human history goes back a lot longer than biblical times. We find evidence all the time that pushes back the dawn of civilized man and there still is cities to be found. My point is just that the victors get to write history and for the longest time the human victor was the tribe that could kill the other more efficiently. Not very pious in my opinion and alot of the things in the old testement are very disturbing as it advocates things like rape and murder, I can find the exact passages if you want me to? What if Rome never declined? We only have the bible as such a widespread tool simply because they got lucky and survived when other religions and ideals did not.
The Egyptians,Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians and Sumerians pre-date Christianity by 1000's of years and its also funny to notice how similar their creation myths are which tells me they have a common ancestor? Atlantis? IMO, the bible is just a copy of older scripture and Jesus was just someone who knew how to inspire people and at the time it might have been the best thing but not now imo. I am sorry I just have no faith in words written by various people with various agenda's and the fact organized religion wants 10% of your income also says a lot. So many different civilizations and probably over a million different religions then I am starting to see a pattern and that pattern is mans want for: control, answers on mortality and purpose of existence which drives us to create our own visions of the eternal?
Wow....lots of errors in that statment.
The first part of the Bible was written during times of turmoil and strive. The first five books of the Bible was written while Moses was in a nomadic state hoping that tomorrow will be the day he will come into the promise land that God told him about. They lived off of water and manna (a substance that was either given to them by God or a pseudo-soy plant substance). There was hardly any warlike winning hebrews during that time.
The next two books of Joshua and Judges was written during a state of civil war. The Hewbrew people found their homeland but then they started to fight among themselves. The 12 tribes of Judea fought and killed each other. The first time since the formation of the Hebrew people. The book of Judges was about people who rose up among the ashes of defeat to help maintain a State of existance within Israel.
Let's fast forward to the new testament.
The New Testament was written in secrecy and the people who read those early books (scrolls) did so in secrecy. If they were caught, they had no chance of survival. Before 80 AD, the Jewish authorities would have them killed for Blaspehemy and after 80 AD the Roman Consulant had them killed due to heresy. The Roman courts declared that worshiping this Jesus and not the Ceasor was a violation against the Empire. Thus, such an infraction against the state of Rome required execution. Whether you were a citizen or not.
Christians were subjected to torture, devoured by animals in gladiator arenas, and Nero used their bodies as torches on posts during his late night banquets. All of this happened because the early christians read and practiced what the scrolls of the new testament had said.
It was until 300 years later when Christianity became the Empire's national religion. By then, three different forms of the Bible had already been form; so the issue that the Bible was written during their glorious battles is far from the truth. Also, the reason why you are able to read what I am writing to you today is because when Christianity became recognized as the State Religion, many Priests and Bishops risked their lives to preach among the Goths and other Germanic Tribes.
When those Germanic Tribes sacked Rome about a hundred years later, everyone was pretty much killed but the Christians. It was because the Christians practiced what Christ preached. They fed the barbarians when they were hungry, the clothed them, and they ministered to them. It was because of the Barbarians saving the monestaries from destruction that kept the monks continuing to write books and keeping the written art alive.
There was only four books written in the Old Testament during Israel's rise to fame, glory, and power. Every other book in the Old Testament was written during turmoil and torment. 100% of every book written in the New testament was written amongst prosecution and the fear of death. Even the last book of the Bible was written by an Apostle who was exiled to an island to live the rest of his life by himself. The island was his prison.
BTW...the Bible is not a 100% Christian Bible. It is 50/50 Jewish and Christian. The Old Testament is purely from the Ancient Hebrew text,
The oldest book in the Bible is well over five thousand years old. Far older than any Hittite, Assyrian, or Babylonian text. You really need to study on the Bible before making accusations against it.
Well for starters I don't believe the bible to be factually accurate and they couldn't even get stuff like what Pharoh was ruling Egypt when Moses lived there.
Cant really argue for or against something you dont believe in. Trust me, mate, I know what the Bible says. I have a doctorate studying it and I went to a conservatove and liberal seminary (so I have a broad sprectrum about it). I also have the Bible in the original languages that I used to hermenautly exegetic the scriptures (pase them).
I could spend days refuting every misbelief or misperception you have about various parts of the Bible but I really have no desire to do so because it will be severe Topic Hijacking. If you would like to PM me, Id be more than happy to explain away all of those athesitic misperceptions....because I was an Athiest for the first 17 years of my life so trust me, I know all of the scriptures that athiestsor bible criticists try to prove the Bible as a screwed up book with a lot of errors.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Ive had enough of talking about you, sorry egg, lets get back on topic. esp considering you based your last 3 posts on 1 word in 1 of my posts.
Okay so we have a perfect God, who created a perfect world. But he needs to change it quite regularly ?
Whats with the changes ? isnt he infallable ?
The standard answer to that is that god gave us Free will, and that changes everything.
So then wouldnt miracles be considered a direct restriction of ones freewill ?
Nice
Actually I based the last 3 posts on questions you were asking me and I was trying to answer your questions, not talking about myself. I do agree that we were going off topic somewhat though.
Ive had enough of talking about you, sorry egg, lets get back on topic. esp considering you based your last 3 posts on 1 word in 1 of my posts.
Okay so we have a perfect God, who created a perfect world. But he needs to change it quite regularly ?
Whats with the changes ? isnt he infallable ?
The standard answer to that is that god gave us Free will, and that changes everything.
So then wouldnt miracles be considered a direct restriction of ones freewill ?
Never says anywhere he created a perfect world. He never intended to. It states he created the world and man. Man screwed up the world. Not God. God (in Christian argument) sent his Son to right the wrong mankind did.
Sorry...I had to say it.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Ive had enough of talking about you, sorry egg, lets get back on topic. esp considering you based your last 3 posts on 1 word in 1 of my posts.
Okay so we have a perfect God, who created a perfect world. But he needs to change it quite regularly ?
Whats with the changes ? isnt he infallable ?
The standard answer to that is that god gave us Free will, and that changes everything.
So then wouldnt miracles be considered a direct restriction of ones freewill ?
Never says anywhere he created a perfect world. It states he created the world and man. Man screwed up the world. Not God. God (in Christian argument) sent his Son to right the wrong mankind did.
Sorry...I had to say it.
So an perfect being created an imperfect world which he needs to change on a regular basis......
Wouldnt that make him, fallable ? or not perfect ?
No, not at all. You being a buddhist should know this.
He created a world which was neither perfect or imperfect. God gave man freewill to do whatever he wishes....even disobeying God (tree of Knowledge). This freewill is a blessing and a curse. A Curse because we sinned the first chance we got because we are curious people and disobeyed God the first chance we got. A blessing because as a people with freewill, we are more better off than the Angels. The Angels do not have free will; humanity does. When we are in Heaven, we can honestly share a personable relationship with God while the Angels do not have this ability.
Where does it state that God has to constantly changed the world on a regular basis?
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Ive had enough of talking about you, sorry egg, lets get back on topic. esp considering you based your last 3 posts on 1 word in 1 of my posts.
Okay so we have a perfect God, who created a perfect world. But he needs to change it quite regularly ?
Whats with the changes ? isnt he infallable ?
The standard answer to that is that god gave us Free will, and that changes everything.
So then wouldnt miracles be considered a direct restriction of ones freewill ?
Never says anywhere he created a perfect world. It states he created the world and man. Man screwed up the world. Not God. God (in Christian argument) sent his Son to right the wrong mankind did.
Sorry...I had to say it.
So an perfect being created an imperfect world which he needs to change on a regular basis......
Wouldnt that make him, fallable ? or not perfect ?
No, not at all. You being a buddhist should know this.
He created a world which was neither perfect or imperfect. God gave man freewill to do whatever he wishes....even disobeying God (tree of Knowledge). This freewill is a blessing and a curse. A Curse because we sinned the first chance we got because we are curious people and disobeyed God the first chance we got. A blessing because as a people with freewill, we are more better off than the Angels. The Angels do not have free will; humanity does. When we are in Heaven, we can honestly share a personable relationship with God while the Angels do not have this ability.
Where does it state that God has to constantly changed the world on a regular basis?
Every single miraculous account.....
The world was never changed through any miraculous account.
The entire purpose of miracles is Christ-Centric
Whenever Jesus performed a miracle, he showed his followers that the Kingdom of Heaven is near and very tangible. It was an attribute to his power as the Son of God.
In the Old Testament, miracles occured to show his people that he is their God and he is very much in control of the situation despite how bleak the outcome was.
Never has a miracle ever "changed" the world because God felt like he somehow screwed up. The miracles changed the paths of humanity for the betterment because God shows that he is still their father...not because he is imperfect.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Do you people even understand the difference between old testament and new testament? New testament overwrites old testament so the places where it says things like killing disobedient kids don't apply anymore if fact most of the old testament doesn't apply anymore. What parts don't apply? Ones that are contrdicted in the new testament.
Hmm lets see, the bible is popular because back after Christianity was established it then became very warlike and since it conquered most of the area's it was able to write history as it saw fit. Imagine if the Chinese or Mongols took over and please don't forget that Human history goes back a lot longer than biblical times. We find evidence all the time that pushes back the dawn of civilized man and there still is cities to be found. My point is just that the victors get to write history and for the longest time the human victor was the tribe that could kill the other more efficiently. Not very pious in my opinion and alot of the things in the old testement are very disturbing as it advocates things like rape and murder, I can find the exact passages if you want me to? What if Rome never declined? We only have the bible as such a widespread tool simply because they got lucky and survived when other religions and ideals did not.
The Egyptians,Hittites, Assyrians, Babylonians and Sumerians pre-date Christianity by 1000's of years and its also funny to notice how similar their creation myths are which tells me they have a common ancestor? Atlantis? IMO, the bible is just a copy of older scripture and Jesus was just someone who knew how to inspire people and at the time it might have been the best thing but not now imo. I am sorry I just have no faith in words written by various people with various agenda's and the fact organized religion wants 10% of your income also says a lot. So many different civilizations and probably over a million different religions then I am starting to see a pattern and that pattern is mans want for: control, answers on mortality and purpose of existence which drives us to create our own visions of the eternal?
Wow....lots of errors in that statment.
The first part of the Bible was written during times of turmoil and strive. The first five books of the Bible was written while Moses was in a nomadic state hoping that tomorrow will be the day he will come into the promise land that God told him about. They lived off of water and manna (a substance that was either given to them by God or a pseudo-soy plant substance). There was hardly any warlike winning hebrews during that time.
The next two books of Joshua and Judges was written during a state of civil war. The Hewbrew people found their homeland but then they started to fight among themselves. The 12 tribes of Judea fought and killed each other. The first time since the formation of the Hebrew people. The book of Judges was about people who rose up among the ashes of defeat to help maintain a State of existance within Israel.
Let's fast forward to the new testament.
The New Testament was written in secrecy and the people who read those early books (scrolls) did so in secrecy. If they were caught, they had no chance of survival. Before 80 AD, the Jewish authorities would have them killed for Blaspehemy and after 80 AD the Roman Consulant had them killed due to heresy. The Roman courts declared that worshiping this Jesus and not the Ceasor was a violation against the Empire. Thus, such an infraction against the state of Rome required execution. Whether you were a citizen or not.
Christians were subjected to torture, devoured by animals in gladiator arenas, and Nero used their bodies as torches on posts during his late night banquets. All of this happened because the early christians read and practiced what the scrolls of the new testament had said.
It was until 300 years later when Christianity became the Empire's national religion. By then, three different forms of the Bible had already been form; so the issue that the Bible was written during their glorious battles is far from the truth. Also, the reason why you are able to read what I am writing to you today is because when Christianity became recognized as the State Religion, many Priests and Bishops risked their lives to preach among the Goths and other Germanic Tribes.
When those Germanic Tribes sacked Rome about a hundred years later, everyone was pretty much killed but the Christians. It was because the Christians practiced what Christ preached. They fed the barbarians when they were hungry, the clothed them, and they ministered to them. It was because of the Barbarians saving the monestaries from destruction that kept the monks continuing to write books and keeping the written art alive.
There was only four books written in the Old Testament during Israel's rise to fame, glory, and power. Every other book in the Old Testament was written during turmoil and torment. 100% of every book written in the New testament was written amongst prosecution and the fear of death. Even the last book of the Bible was written by an Apostle who was exiled to an island to live the rest of his life by himself. The island was his prison.
BTW...the Bible is not a 100% Christian Bible. It is 50/50 Jewish and Christian. The Old Testament is purely from the Ancient Hebrew text,
The oldest book in the Bible is well over five thousand years old. Far older than any Hittite, Assyrian, or Babylonian text. You really need to study on the Bible before making accusations against it.
Well for starters I don't believe the bible to be factually accurate and they couldn't even get stuff like what Pharoh was ruling Egypt when Moses lived there. The bible says Ramses the great but in fact no records during his reign show any mention of the biblical plagues and death of the first born. The one Moses they did find records of lived during a completely different pharoh's reign and only the bible mentions the supposed acts of god. Here is a list of biblical writings and the date they were written: www.davnet.org/kevin/articles/bible_dates.html
Now here is some words written not by me but someone on another forum I agree with which correlates to the list I posted a link to:
At one point in the last link - which is a discussion - Spocko shows a picture of a seemingly crucified Orpheus. However, I've already read an article somewhere that showed that this figure is probably fraudulent. I've dipped into some of these articles in the past, but there has usually been way too much information to examine in detail and retain in any short length of time. But I wish you happy reading nevertheless. You can at least get the gist of the idea while still retaining some aspects of the argument from the 'other side'.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Do you people even understand the difference between old testament and new testament? New testament overwrites old testament so the places where it says things like killing disobedient kids don't apply anymore if fact most of the old testament doesn't apply anymore. What parts don't apply? Ones that are contrdicted in the new testament.
Jesus, I think, said that he came not to undo the torah but to fulfill it. I think 'torah' is generally translated as 'law' but a rabbi I had met some years ago had taught that the 'torah' should probably be translated as 'teaching' instead of 'law.' I don't think that the New Testament goes against the Old Testament. Parents should have the power of life and death over their children, for they gave them life. However, there is a difference between God's law and Man's law. I think Jesus mentions that Moses had a law where you could divorce your wife or some such thing, but the gist of the story is that Moses' law was not God's law and should not be accepted over God's law.
So when you're picking through the Old Testament, make sure you understand what law you're reading from - whether it be from the law or opinion of men or from God.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
I hit about page 5 and stopped, people got some really really long post, almost Essay material going on there. I'm not sure if someone said this or not, but let's see what happens (note: I don't want to start anything with anyone, that is not my intention, this is my opinion on the matter, this is in no way effect you or anyone but me. Thank you.)
I don't know what to believe, I was never forced to go to church (my parents are Roman Catholic) so I never found that religion was a part of my life. I have gone to church with some of my friends, like 5 times, and I think they were Christian. I have even talk to my Christian friends and thankfully they accept the fact I believe in... well nothing. I was in class last year and some how we got on the topic of religion and I said "I don't believe in anything." and of course someone had to say (while shifting their desk away) "God's going to smite you (or strike you down, same concept don't remember, don't care)."
I don't refuse to belive in God or any other religious figure, it was never a part of my life it may become a part, it may not. I like to discuss religion with people, but not ARGUE about it.
But my real reason for not believing in any religion (or so I think, might be more too it) is that I don't see any physical evidence of it. Yes the Bible etc, but they're books, I don't belive everything I read. If God comes to my house one day, then I will convert. Or when I die and Heaven and Hell does exist, I will accept it even if it is too late. I live my life how I see fit, not how others do.
This is just me, say what ever you like it doesn't effect my life one bit, just more or less wasting your time. On the same note, I don't belive (strongly) of The Big Bang Theory or Evolution (primates / fish), because honestly it doesn't matter to me, if I was an awsome gold fish at one point, good for us. Same as a chimp, hehe... funny.
Once it is my time and I am shown the true answer then I will accept, till then I will look for the answer I believe is correct as you do.
The thing that confuses me a lot and I just don't understand is in parts of the bible it says you should beat to death all bad children or it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery or rape or murder. When somebody points that out, somebody else always says well no you shouldn't read that part read all the parts where it says I love everybody. And some people may simply just ignore it. What do you do? Simply not pay attention to the parts that tell you to rape and murder. Also heard somebody say well the Ten Commandments say Thou shall not kill. Well! when you think about more people have died because of religion then anything else, easily! So I guess it depends who's being killed and who's doing the killing? Or do you ignore it and simply find the alternitive that fits best and seems most civil and relating to the time period and pick and choose? Which just doesn't seem fair at all. Or is the person some how misinterpreting it and it's somehow a metaphor or analogy or that person is reading out of context? All this just confuses me. . .
Can somebody answer my question. Really baffles me from time to time. I really am curious. It doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Comments
And if that means someone else's religion damns me to hell...well so be it. I'm sure the company will be interesting at least. You know what John Milton said "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven". Or was that Satan? I can never keep it straight.
I'll say I absolutely cannot empathize with Christians, Jews, or Muslims. I honestly don't know why they follow the mythology of ancient semetic sheep herders. Why is Jewish mythology more important than any other culture's mythology? I don't know, humans are a strange animal.
Oh well, me and the other apes will be in the corner laughing at the religious people while we sip beer and teach each other sign language
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Life sucks, buy a helmet.
I was raised Catholic and was extremely fervent, some might argue insanely so. It came to the point where I was dissatisfied with the usual trappings and began to seek out ways to prove myself worthy, sort of self tests. This started simply enough, and it was always private and intensly personal. Little tests here or their, volunteer to do this unpleasant task, accomplish such and such a goal. That didn't satisfy me. Eventually it came that I found release in self mortification. If you've ever heard of the flagellants, I did that. I whipped myself, amongst other tests most of you'd find pretty bizarre and scary. Stay with me, this is just to give some background of my fervor.
Much of my life I told myself that my path should be that of priesthood. I studied on my own in childhood and as a young man, but also built my character up to be equal to what tasks would be asked of me. I came very close to entering a seminary, which to those who don't know is sort of a priest school. I had two friends my age who also wanted to join. Our paths skewed in strange ways. A very wise priest told me I should pray and contemplate what I was doing, simply because of the gravity of the path I considered. He told me that if I entered a seminary I would do this alot. I shared this advice with my friends who all agreed it was good, and the three of us spent several months of profound soul searching. I focused on several key moments in my life that were the most troubling to my faith, and ultimately, I stepped back.
So, it was my two friends who entered the seminary, and I did not. In time one of my friends also left, and I did not hear from him for a long time. I kept in contact with the other, who told me some interesting stories of what he was learning. He was also instructed, INSTRUCTED, that it would be a good idea to date a little. The idea was that you've got to get to know what you're giving up, if you're going to be strong enough. It was a good lesson, he dropped out soon after. Actually dated a girl who was trying to become a nun. They both had a crisis of faith for awhile, but reconciled, and are married and practicing Catholics.
The other friend later contacted me. Strangely enough he had become a die-hard Satanist (not devil worshipper, there's a difference, but it's involved). I revealed that I had abandoned my faith in the Church, though not gone as far as he. We discussed this for a long time, and still do occasionally. His theory, and I believe it is sound, is that when you get that close to your faith, you find all the nagging pieces and either have to embrace them and work through to a solution, or you step back from your faith farther than when you started. Clearly he had stepped back and turned around. I admit that in the begining I harbored intense rage at the Catholic Church.
My introspection forced me to face some key points that disturbed me about the Church, and I list them from lax to severe. First is the sex abuse scandal. The fact is I was confirmed (Catholic sacrement) by a bishop who later turned out to be a pedophile, who was replaced by a man who turned out to be a pedophile, who...was replaced by a normal bishop who had a hidden pedophile in his staff he wasn't aware of..we hope. The Church really messed up the handling of this issue, and still does. Forgiveness is one thing, but putting children in harms way to cover up is evil.
The next peg up the ladder was that I genuinely hated most of the people in the Church. I would sit at Sunday mass and remark to myself how all the women were there, but the husbands could only be bothered to give a crap if they were dragged there, and never on football Sunday. I saw the old men and women who complained their lives away and gave me evil glances because they just didn't trust anyone under 35. I saw piss-poor priests who really didn't give a damn and just went through the motions; if you sought them out for advice they blew you off, uncaring of the fate of their supposed flock. I realized I hated these people, and if I hated the people in the Church then I hated the Church, for a Church is its souls and not the brick facade.
Finally, I realized that I did not believe in Christ's message. I never stopped admiring that a person could face brutal death for a cause, and I admire messages of pacifism backed with martyred blood. In the end, I realized I wasn't that kind of man. I am vengeful and indeed brutal when I need to be. I believe in a degree of pragmatism that Jesus would probably find horrid. I don't like people, I will never like people. There are core parts of my character that are completely contrary to that message. I am not compatible.
So, after all this, I came to realize something. I have faith, but not in any manmade church. I do not believe what the Bible preaches, or what the Pope says, or what the reverend at the corner churchs sings. I believe in a Creator, but I do not believe I can understand that being, at least not alive. I believe there is someting beyond death, because I have seen things. I can't really talk about these things because you will either think I'm insane or believe me or think I'm lying. I don't know that I want any of these reactions.
It comes to this: Faith is personal. You may see things in your life that you really can't repeat to others, because they won't understand. Or maybe you won't. The very definition of faith is that it cannot be explained, because if it could be it's not really faith. It's believing in something without tangible proof. If you know 100% for certain you don't really have faith, you already know. Maybe it comes down to that I decided to roll the dice on something on a whim. There are some people who play the odds, and try to believe in whatever they think is most likely so they won't go to hell. If I may offer a defiant statement, if your God is sending you to hell already, why worship? If I had to put bets down on existing deities, I suppose the Christian god ain't so bad. I never really believed in hell when I was Catholic, I figured when you die God sort of came and said, 'sorry, you messed up. Just say you're sorry and mean it.' But I'm not a Christian so I don't have that safety net to help me sleep at night.
Whatever created me made me defiant and irritable. These qualities must be part of the song of creation.
If you set up a video camera on a street to film various pedestrians going about their business, this act does not have any effect on each person's ability to choose their own actions. However, when you watch the video back later, each of those choices has been captured. When you watch the tape, you can know what each person on that video is about to do, but that doesn't change the fact that they each had free will while they were being filmed. You know the outcome of their actions, but they still had free will.
A being who is outside of time as we know it can know the outcome of our actions without infringing on our free will.
If you set up a video camera on a street to film various pedestrians going about their business, this act does not have any effect on each person's ability to choose their own actions. However, when you watch the video back later, each of those choices has been captured. When you watch the tape, you can know what each person on that video is about to do, but that doesn't change the fact that they each had free will while they were being filmed. You know the outcome of their actions, but they still had free will.
A being who is outside of time as we know it can know the outcome of our actions without infringing on our free will. The assumption there is that a person, given a closed environment, will make the same choice in the same circumstances.
Therefore making the idea free choice moot.
I'm not aware of any such assumption there. How have you come to that conclusion?
I could also use the example of a "sim" type game, where you have control over the timeline with fast-forward and rewind buttons, but then you need to imagine that the characters in game have their own will and are not just programmed.
The being who is outside of time would not necessarily have to just be an observer.
-In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
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RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos
Totally off-topic... Dante Alighieri wrote The Divine Comedy. Milton wrote Paradise Lost, in which the quote you're referring to appears.
Here may we reign secure, and in my choice To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell. Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.
Topic: Ambition
Source: Paradise Lost (bk. I, l. 263) http://www.worldofquotes.com/author/John-Milton/1/index.html
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This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Wow....lots of errors in that statment.
The first part of the Bible was written during times of turmoil and strive. The first five books of the Bible was written while Moses was in a nomadic state hoping that tomorrow will be the day he will come into the promise land that God told him about. They lived off of water and manna (a substance that was either given to them by God or a pseudo-soy plant substance). There was hardly any warlike winning hebrews during that time.
The next two books of Joshua and Judges was written during a state of civil war. The Hewbrew people found their homeland but then they started to fight among themselves. The 12 tribes of Judea fought and killed each other. The first time since the formation of the Hebrew people. The book of Judges was about people who rose up among the ashes of defeat to help maintain a State of existance within Israel.
Let's fast forward to the new testament.
The New Testament was written in secrecy and the people who read those early books (scrolls) did so in secrecy. If they were caught, they had no chance of survival. Before 80 AD, the Jewish authorities would have them killed for Blaspehemy and after 80 AD the Roman Consulant had them killed due to heresy. The Roman courts declared that worshiping this Jesus and not the Ceasor was a violation against the Empire. Thus, such an infraction against the state of Rome required execution. Whether you were a citizen or not.
Christians were subjected to torture, devoured by animals in gladiator arenas, and Nero used their bodies as torches on posts during his late night banquets. All of this happened because the early christians read and practiced what the scrolls of the new testament had said.
It was until 300 years later when Christianity became the Empire's national religion. By then, three different forms of the Bible had already been form; so the issue that the Bible was written during their glorious battles is far from the truth. Also, the reason why you are able to read what I am writing to you today is because when Christianity became recognized as the State Religion, many Priests and Bishops risked their lives to preach among the Goths and other Germanic Tribes.
When those Germanic Tribes sacked Rome about a hundred years later, everyone was pretty much killed but the Christians. It was because the Christians practiced what Christ preached. They fed the barbarians when they were hungry, the clothed them, and they ministered to them. It was because of the Barbarians saving the monestaries from destruction that kept the monks continuing to write books and keeping the written art alive.
There was only four books written in the Old Testament during Israel's rise to fame, glory, and power. Every other book in the Old Testament was written during turmoil and torment. 100% of every book written in the New testament was written amongst prosecution and the fear of death. Even the last book of the Bible was written by an Apostle who was exiled to an island to live the rest of his life by himself. The island was his prison.
BTW...the Bible is not a 100% Christian Bible. It is 50/50 Jewish and Christian. The Old Testament is purely from the Ancient Hebrew text,
The oldest book in the Bible is well over five thousand years old. Far older than any Hittite, Assyrian, or Babylonian text. You really need to study on the Bible before making accusations against it.
Well for starters I don't believe the bible to be factually accurate and they couldn't even get stuff like what Pharoh was ruling Egypt when Moses lived there.Cant really argue for or against something you dont believe in. Trust me, mate, I know what the Bible says. I have a doctorate studying it and I went to a conservatove and liberal seminary (so I have a broad sprectrum about it). I also have the Bible in the original languages that I used to hermenautly exegetic the scriptures (pase them).
I could spend days refuting every misbelief or misperception you have about various parts of the Bible but I really have no desire to do so because it will be severe Topic Hijacking. If you would like to PM me, Id be more than happy to explain away all of those athesitic misperceptions....because I was an Athiest for the first 17 years of my life so trust me, I know all of the scriptures that athiestsor bible criticists try to prove the Bible as a screwed up book with a lot of errors.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Actually I based the last 3 posts on questions you were asking me and I was trying to answer your questions, not talking about myself. I do agree that we were going off topic somewhat though.
Never says anywhere he created a perfect world. He never intended to. It states he created the world and man. Man screwed up the world. Not God. God (in Christian argument) sent his Son to right the wrong mankind did.
Sorry...I had to say it.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Never says anywhere he created a perfect world. It states he created the world and man. Man screwed up the world. Not God. God (in Christian argument) sent his Son to right the wrong mankind did.
Sorry...I had to say it.
So an perfect being created an imperfect world which he needs to change on a regular basis......Wouldnt that make him, fallable ? or not perfect ?
No, not at all. You being a buddhist should know this.
He created a world which was neither perfect or imperfect. God gave man freewill to do whatever he wishes....even disobeying God (tree of Knowledge). This freewill is a blessing and a curse. A Curse because we sinned the first chance we got because we are curious people and disobeyed God the first chance we got. A blessing because as a people with freewill, we are more better off than the Angels. The Angels do not have free will; humanity does. When we are in Heaven, we can honestly share a personable relationship with God while the Angels do not have this ability.
Where does it state that God has to constantly changed the world on a regular basis?
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Never says anywhere he created a perfect world. It states he created the world and man. Man screwed up the world. Not God. God (in Christian argument) sent his Son to right the wrong mankind did.
Sorry...I had to say it.
So an perfect being created an imperfect world which he needs to change on a regular basis......Wouldnt that make him, fallable ? or not perfect ?
No, not at all. You being a buddhist should know this.
He created a world which was neither perfect or imperfect. God gave man freewill to do whatever he wishes....even disobeying God (tree of Knowledge). This freewill is a blessing and a curse. A Curse because we sinned the first chance we got because we are curious people and disobeyed God the first chance we got. A blessing because as a people with freewill, we are more better off than the Angels. The Angels do not have free will; humanity does. When we are in Heaven, we can honestly share a personable relationship with God while the Angels do not have this ability.
Where does it state that God has to constantly changed the world on a regular basis?
Every single miraculous account.....The world was never changed through any miraculous account.
The entire purpose of miracles is Christ-Centric
Whenever Jesus performed a miracle, he showed his followers that the Kingdom of Heaven is near and very tangible. It was an attribute to his power as the Son of God.
In the Old Testament, miracles occured to show his people that he is their God and he is very much in control of the situation despite how bleak the outcome was.
Never has a miracle ever "changed" the world because God felt like he somehow screwed up. The miracles changed the paths of humanity for the betterment because God shows that he is still their father...not because he is imperfect.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
btw, I hate talking about religion because of stepping on people's toes and their own personal beliefs.
I am more then opened to a PM conversation but I think ill stop here lol.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Do you people even understand the difference between old testament and new testament? New testament overwrites old testament so the places where it says things like killing disobedient kids don't apply anymore if fact most of the old testament doesn't apply anymore. What parts don't apply? Ones that are contrdicted in the new testament.
-for the overmind.
Wow....lots of errors in that statment.
The first part of the Bible was written during times of turmoil and strive. The first five books of the Bible was written while Moses was in a nomadic state hoping that tomorrow will be the day he will come into the promise land that God told him about. They lived off of water and manna (a substance that was either given to them by God or a pseudo-soy plant substance). There was hardly any warlike winning hebrews during that time.
The next two books of Joshua and Judges was written during a state of civil war. The Hewbrew people found their homeland but then they started to fight among themselves. The 12 tribes of Judea fought and killed each other. The first time since the formation of the Hebrew people. The book of Judges was about people who rose up among the ashes of defeat to help maintain a State of existance within Israel.
Let's fast forward to the new testament.
The New Testament was written in secrecy and the people who read those early books (scrolls) did so in secrecy. If they were caught, they had no chance of survival. Before 80 AD, the Jewish authorities would have them killed for Blaspehemy and after 80 AD the Roman Consulant had them killed due to heresy. The Roman courts declared that worshiping this Jesus and not the Ceasor was a violation against the Empire. Thus, such an infraction against the state of Rome required execution. Whether you were a citizen or not.
Christians were subjected to torture, devoured by animals in gladiator arenas, and Nero used their bodies as torches on posts during his late night banquets. All of this happened because the early christians read and practiced what the scrolls of the new testament had said.
It was until 300 years later when Christianity became the Empire's national religion. By then, three different forms of the Bible had already been form; so the issue that the Bible was written during their glorious battles is far from the truth. Also, the reason why you are able to read what I am writing to you today is because when Christianity became recognized as the State Religion, many Priests and Bishops risked their lives to preach among the Goths and other Germanic Tribes.
When those Germanic Tribes sacked Rome about a hundred years later, everyone was pretty much killed but the Christians. It was because the Christians practiced what Christ preached. They fed the barbarians when they were hungry, the clothed them, and they ministered to them. It was because of the Barbarians saving the monestaries from destruction that kept the monks continuing to write books and keeping the written art alive.
There was only four books written in the Old Testament during Israel's rise to fame, glory, and power. Every other book in the Old Testament was written during turmoil and torment. 100% of every book written in the New testament was written amongst prosecution and the fear of death. Even the last book of the Bible was written by an Apostle who was exiled to an island to live the rest of his life by himself. The island was his prison.
BTW...the Bible is not a 100% Christian Bible. It is 50/50 Jewish and Christian. The Old Testament is purely from the Ancient Hebrew text,
The oldest book in the Bible is well over five thousand years old. Far older than any Hittite, Assyrian, or Babylonian text. You really need to study on the Bible before making accusations against it.
Well for starters I don't believe the bible to be factually accurate and they couldn't even get stuff like what Pharoh was ruling Egypt when Moses lived there. The bible says Ramses the great but in fact no records during his reign show any mention of the biblical plagues and death of the first born. The one Moses they did find records of lived during a completely different pharoh's reign and only the bible mentions the supposed acts of god. Here is a list of biblical writings and the date they were written: www.davnet.org/kevin/articles/bible_dates.htmlNow here is some words written not by me but someone on another forum I agree with which correlates to the list I posted a link to:
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread275331/pg1
Listen to what Marduk writes as he knows a lot about this topic.
Concerning the origins of our Bible: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.php and http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/authenticity.php
Concerning the epic of Gilgamesh: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/gilgamesh.php
Concerning Mithraism: http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/mithras.htm
Concerning Horus: http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/ending_the_myth_of_horus/
At one point in the last link - which is a discussion - Spocko shows a picture of a seemingly crucified Orpheus. However, I've already read an article somewhere that showed that this figure is probably fraudulent. I've dipped into some of these articles in the past, but there has usually been way too much information to examine in detail and retain in any short length of time. But I wish you happy reading nevertheless. You can at least get the gist of the idea while still retaining some aspects of the argument from the 'other side'.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Jesus, I think, said that he came not to undo the torah but to fulfill it. I think 'torah' is generally translated as 'law' but a rabbi I had met some years ago had taught that the 'torah' should probably be translated as 'teaching' instead of 'law.' I don't think that the New Testament goes against the Old Testament. Parents should have the power of life and death over their children, for they gave them life. However, there is a difference between God's law and Man's law. I think Jesus mentions that Moses had a law where you could divorce your wife or some such thing, but the gist of the story is that Moses' law was not God's law and should not be accepted over God's law.
So when you're picking through the Old Testament, make sure you understand what law you're reading from - whether it be from the law or opinion of men or from God.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
I don't know what to believe, I was never forced to go to church (my parents are Roman Catholic) so I never found that religion was a part of my life. I have gone to church with some of my friends, like 5 times, and I think they were Christian. I have even talk to my Christian friends and thankfully they accept the fact I believe in... well nothing. I was in class last year and some how we got on the topic of religion and I said "I don't believe in anything." and of course someone had to say (while shifting their desk away) "God's going to smite you (or strike you down, same concept don't remember, don't care)."
I don't refuse to belive in God or any other religious figure, it was never a part of my life it may become a part, it may not. I like to discuss religion with people, but not ARGUE about it.
But my real reason for not believing in any religion (or so I think, might be more too it) is that I don't see any physical evidence of it. Yes the Bible etc, but they're books, I don't belive everything I read. If God comes to my house one day, then I will convert. Or when I die and Heaven and Hell does exist, I will accept it even if it is too late. I live my life how I see fit, not how others do.
This is just me, say what ever you like it doesn't effect my life one bit, just more or less wasting your time. On the same note, I don't belive (strongly) of The Big Bang Theory or Evolution (primates / fish), because honestly it doesn't matter to me, if I was an awsome gold fish at one point, good for us. Same as a chimp, hehe... funny.
Once it is my time and I am shown the true answer then I will accept, till then I will look for the answer I believe is correct as you do.
On Time? On Target? Never Quit?